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Date: 06 Jun 2007 06:47:17
From: Frank Taco
Subject: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).
Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.
That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
Thanks in advance for the feedback.
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Date: 08 Jun 2007 06:28:35
From: Frank Taco
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 5, 11:47 pm, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
> to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
> local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
> trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
> part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
> team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
> racer).
>
> Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
> us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
> do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
> the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
> strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
> 2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
> superior because of his experience.
>
> That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
> that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
> smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
> should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
> able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
> the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
> as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
> front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
> Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Hey, I really want to thank you guys for all the great replies.
You've given me lots to think about and more importantly, have steered
me towards the right way to think about it.
DirtRoadie: Awesome post . . thanks for taking the time, you nailed
it. A couple of my other favorite comments:
<<...the beauty of bike racing is that tactics can beat strength... >>
Yeah, us old guys tend to notice that right away! Seems like there's
a LOT to learn from just taking a look at what happened at the last
race and how to do it better next time. Looks like there's not a lot
of people interested in doing that, so there's your advantage.
<<...If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late)
forties. You probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll
have fun. >>
Well, I'm having a blast. Why this is I'm not sure, because it hurts
like am SOB. And I honestly don't expect to win anything, but the
idea that it *could* happen is intoxicating. If it ever does, you
guys will want to be in the vicinity because I'll be buying the beer.
Thanks again. FT
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 21:44:00
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 6, 12:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
> as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
> front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
He sounds like a class act, someone who enjoys a game well played as
much as winning.
As has been noted, his suggestion was the "textbook" example of how
that situation might be played. But since he was there, I would guess
it is also the most accurate suggestion you will hear. In what he
described, the goal would be to use your 2-1 advantage and make
repeated attacks, forcing him to work to match every attack, i.e. work
him over - one of you attacking and the other simply sitting on his
wheel (alternating attacks would be the textbook version but the real
world version could be different ). But if the attacks are weak or
easily followed he might not become tired from responding. A HUGE
factor is, of course, the relative strengths of the riders. In
discussing *tactics* it should probably be assumed that the riders are
relatively evenly matched, although that is never completely the case.
And the relative sprinting ability of the riders is an even bigger
factor when it comes to a breakaway group reaching the finish line
together .
If (as you describe) the conditions make it difficult to ride alone,
then it is also possible that little would be gained by one of the two
of you going off the front. the loner might let the one go (and use up
energy), save his energy and eventually attack to drop #2 and then
reel in #1.
In any case, you describe that you "tried a break" although I
suspect that you are describing that you both tried to get away
simultaneously. That could work well if he were weaker than the two of
you but not nearly so well if he were equal, and almost not at all if
he were stronger. The obvious general goal would be for the two of you
to get a gap on the loner and use the speed advantage of two riders
working together versus a lone rider. But typically, that would NOT be
a good way to drop him in the first place unless you could truly just
"ride him off your wheel ". (If that were the case tactics would be
largely irrelevant.)
An appropriate tactic would be the textbook version described above or
having one of you simply get off the front. If and when a significant
gap is opened and maintained then rider #2 could attack the loner with
the hope of joining #1. Then #1 and #2 could work together. But #2
should be mindful of not pulling the loner up to #1.
Obviously any such situation is going to depend on a multitude of
factors, which is part of what makes it so interesting. It requires
adapting to the specifics of the situtation, to the extent they are
known and/or unknown.
DR
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 20:19:42
From: billyroll
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 5, 11:47 pm, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
> as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
> front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
> Thanks in advance for the feedback.
See also: Bajadali, Andrew.
USPRO Championships, 2006.
-B
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 17:31:32
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 6, 10:42 am, cyclin...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
> enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter.
It seems from reading the first post that the "take turns gapping a
lone enemy" tactic was news to the new-guy teammates.
Well, none of us is born knowing this stuff, so there you go. "That's
why they call it experience".
> What's
> more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
> guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
> attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
> tired teammate is dropped.
The attacker has the responsibility to mind his resources carefully,
so he can take the next turn. The object isn't to blast off into the
distance-- you just want a gap, in order to force a chase.
> In any case the two guys that are simply hanging on cannot beat a
> stronger rider. That's the real truth behind racing.
I could read the OP's account differently: The enemy was of equal or
lesser strength, but knew he had a sprint the two new guys almost
certainly wouldn't be prepared for. So, he waited and sprinted.
Or, maybe he was just saving gas for the Open race, later on in the
race program.
Tom, I have hung on and won (let alone placing). "Never tow a sprinter
to the line". Another racing maxim that people (fortunately for us
stayer-sprinters) forget from time to time.
AFAIC, the beauty of bike racing is that tactics can beat strength
(and, of course, "other tactics"). --D-y
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 23:55:17
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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in message <1181112437.862966.111910@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com >, Frank
Taco ('frank.taco@gmail.com') wrote:
> So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
> to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
> local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
> trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
> part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
> team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
> racer).
>
> Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
> us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
> do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
> the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
> strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
> 2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
> superior because of his experience.
>
> That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
> that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
> smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
> should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
> able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
> the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right?
This is the time for the old one, two.
Yes, that's exactly the right tactics. One of you blast up the road, the
other one sit on his wheel and do /nothing/ to help him. But keep good and
close. As soon as you catch the one who went off up the road, swap - the
one who was previously sitting on his wheel fire off up the road like
crazy, the other one sit in on his wheel and just stay there and rest.
The objective is that the one who's sitting on his wheel gets a little
rest, while Mr Experienced wears himself out chasing down the escaper; so
that when Mr Experienced catches the escaper the sitter-in has done enough
recovery for another burst of speed.
It has the additional benefit that it keeps the speed of the break-away
high, so you're that much more difficult for the peloton to catch.
If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late) forties. You
probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll have fun.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Morning had broken, and we had run out of gas for the welding torch.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 19:22:41
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 23:55:17 +0100, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
>If it's any comfort to you I also took up racing in my (late) forties. You
>probably won't win anything (well, I won't...) but you'll have fun.
If this guy got top 3 in one of his first events he probably will win
something.
--
JT
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 09:49:32
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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> Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
> enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter. What's
> more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
> guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
> attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
> tired teammate is dropped.
yup, been there. remember also the L-B-L where Bartoli was able to
beat Jaja and Zulle (ONCE), who kept trying to work him over. See
http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/04/21/bike.t_2.php
awesome performance.
if you're 5km into a 100km race ... attacking and going solo isn't the
right move. in the last 5km, yeah, if you've got the strength to pull
it off.
you can always tell the guy to 'pull or get dropped'. sometimes that
even works :-)
B.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:09:40
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:47:17 -0000, Frank Taco <frank.taco@gmail.com > wrote:
>So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
>to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
>local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
>trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
>part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
>team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
>racer).
>
>Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
>us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
>do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
>the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
>strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
>2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
>superior because of his experience.
>
>That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
>that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
>smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
>should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
>able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
>the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
>he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
>take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
>would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
>as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
>front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
>this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
>out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
>Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Yep, he told you the truth. One of you takes off and the other just sits on HIS
tire. Rinse and repeat.
The other thing is that you're a fresh minted newb and you got to stand on a box
after a race, which ain't bad.
Ron
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 16:03:54
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:09:40 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>The other thing is that you're a fresh minted
>newb and you got to stand on a box
>after a race, which ain't bad.
Yeah.
--
JT
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 08:47:00
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 6, 8:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
> to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
> local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
> trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
> part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
> team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
> racer).
>
> Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
> us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
> do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
> the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
> strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
> 2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
> superior because of his experience.
>
> That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
> that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
> smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
> should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
> able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
> the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
> as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
> front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
> Thanks in advance for the feedback.
As others have said, sounds like he told the truth (after the race).
Another thing to do since it was a windy day was to ride all the way
to one side of the road in a crosswind to deprive him of a good draft.
You can also wait til the last minute and each of you break to either
side of the road and do a half-hearted early sprint. He'll have to
chose one wheel, and once he does, that guy goes all out and the other
guy hangs back and jumps on the other guys wheel into 3rd position,
then nips him at the line.
Sounds like you had fun nonetheless, and progress too!
Joseph
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 18:17:14
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> As others have said, sounds like he told the truth (after the race).
> Another thing to do since it was a windy day was to ride all the way
> to one side of the road in a crosswind to deprive him of a good draft.
If they're beginners they would probably lack the bike handling confidence
to ride in the gutter, but skilled exponents in windy areas can make a
wheelsuckers life pretty tough.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 08:42:47
From:
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 6, 6:55 am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 1:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> > this?
>
> > I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> > out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
> (but seriously, folks): Yup, attack in turn. Don't let the enemy
> shelter on your wheel(s) before, during, after exchanges.
Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter. What's
more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
tired teammate is dropped.
In any case the two guys that are simply hanging on cannot beat a
stronger rider. That's the real truth behind racing.
Frank and his teammate are still building strength, endurance and
speed. This will continue for 5 years before you hit pretty much your
peak. I think that Frank should be proud of his accomplishments and
not worry too much about missed opportunities.
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 06:55:58
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Jun 6, 1:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this?
Easy. Have one guy sneak up in back of him and stick a tire pump
through his rear wheel.
You've probably seen that one in the movies, if you think for a
second.
> I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
(but seriously, folks): Yup, attack in turn. Don't let the enemy
shelter on your wheel(s) before, during, after exchanges.
--D-y
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 06:14:41
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
|
On Jun 6, 2:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
> to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
> local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
> trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
> part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
> team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
> racer).
>
> Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
> us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
> do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
> the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
> strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
> 2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
> superior because of his experience.
>
> That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
> that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
> smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
> should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
> able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
> the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
> as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
> front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
> this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
> out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
>
> Thanks in advance for the feedback.
It's nice that the guy took the time to explain the situation after
the race. When you have two on one, alternating attacks is the way to
go. A little trash talk helps. As your teammate takes off, you
sitting in second, make no move at all, let the distance grow, the guy
in back will get nervous, and you chime in with, "I've always felt
first and third was better for the team than second and third." That
usually shakes something loose. Then you hang on his tail. Repeat as
necessary. It also helps if you and your teammate use the same
language - then it's the team strategy.
R
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 06:18:29
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
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On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:47:17 -0000, Frank Taco <frank.taco@gmail.com >
wrote:
>So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
>to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
>local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
>trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
>part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
>team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
>racer).
>
>Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
>us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
>do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
>the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
>strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
>2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
>superior because of his experience.
>
>That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
>that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
>smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
>should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
>able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
>the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
>he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
>take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
>would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
>as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
>front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
>this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
>out what the lesson is that I should have learned!
Attacking him in turn would be the right move, assuming one of you
felt you could stay away alone to the end.
The other possible move would be to really force him to pull by simply
stopping riding unless he did so. But that woudl require you two to
be willing to be caught if he did called your bluff.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 01:09:15
From:
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
|
I've always liked this story:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/98dab914edba3a2f
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Date: 06 Jun 2007 07:37:00
From:
Subject: Re: Novice Looking for Tactical Advice
|
On Jun 6, 8:47 am, Frank Taco <frank.t...@gmail.com > wrote:
> To his credit,
> he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
> take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
> would have worn him out. Does this sound right?
To his credit, he told you the truth.
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