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Main
Date: 11 Jan 2007 11:20:00
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
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I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
55-200 to work with.
Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
Anyone doing this right now?
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 17 Jan 2007 13:37:23
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > I think aperture priority is the wrong tactic for a fancy-pan setup. You
> > want to go shutter priority, but a low shutter speed. That will force
> > the pan, and the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. The blur has
> > more to do with lateral motion of the camera relative to the background
> > than DOF, unless I'm deeply mistaken.
>
> Some of it depends upon the lens' "bouquet." Higher-quality lenses produce a
> very different, more-pleasing effect on the out-of-focus areas. People pay
> very big bucks, and heap lavish praise, on the superior "bouquet" offered by
> some lenses. And that "bouquet" varies, depending upon aperture... even in a
> heavily-panned shot.
You're thinking of "bokeh." "Bouquet" is how the lens smells
when uncorked - raspberries, earth, a touch of sea salt. Fine
lenses have a terroir; they reflect the qualities of the place where
they were designed and made. Or at least that's what people
who overpay for Leicas say.
"Bokeh" (which is a Japanese word) is real - it refers to the
appearance of slightly out-of-focus areas, whose qualities are
priily caused (IMO) by over- or under-corrected spherical
aberration. However, differences are fairly subtle between
lenses as long as they aren't mirror lenses, and I have to think
the extra blur caused by panning would make it damn difficult
to discern differences in bokeh.
Incidentally, the "good" bokeh comes from _under_corrected
spherical aberration, which means that turn-of-the-century view
camera lenses and magnifying glasses have it. However,
magnifying glasses aren't sharp enough for most people, so
high-quality lenses must be well corrected for spherical aberration,
and it's not as simple as saying that high-quality lens equals
more pleasing bokeh.
People who are camera-equipment geeks used to obsess over
whether or not lenses were sharp. At some point, lens design
and manufacture became good enough that most lenses (excepting
the cheapest ones) were tolerably sharp especially if you closed
them down a stop. Around this point, the equipment geeks
started talking a lot about bokeh. It's hard to avoid thinking that
it became important so that they would have something to argue
about and sell more equipment. It's sort of like the way that
road bikes are more consistently good than they were in 1975,
so magazine articles split finer and finer hairs about distinctions
in "stiffness" and "compliance."
Cynically yours,
Ben
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Date: 22 Jan 2007 21:58:05
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
>> Some of it depends upon the lens' "bouquet." Higher-quality lenses
>> produce a
>> very different, more-pleasing effect on the out-of-focus areas. People
>> pay
>> very big bucks, and heap lavish praise, on the superior "bouquet" offered
>> by
>> some lenses. And that "bouquet" varies, depending upon aperture... even
>> in a
>> heavily-panned shot.
>
> You're thinking of "bokeh." "Bouquet" is how the lens smells
> when uncorked - raspberries, earth, a touch of sea salt. Fine
> lenses have a terroir; they reflect the qualities of the place where
> they were designed and made. Or at least that's what people
> who overpay for Leicas say.
Thanks, yes, Bokeh is correct. My bad.
> Incidentally, the "good" bokeh comes from _under_corrected
> spherical aberration, which means that turn-of-the-century view
> camera lenses and magnifying glasses have it. However,
> magnifying glasses aren't sharp enough for most people, so
> high-quality lenses must be well corrected for spherical aberration,
> and it's not as simple as saying that high-quality lens equals
> more pleasing bokeh.
Perhaps, but from what I've read (www.fredmiranda.com is a good source of
information for all-things of this sort), it also has a lot to do with the
shape & number of the blades of the iris.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1169069843.331710.121170@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> > I think aperture priority is the wrong tactic for a fancy-pan setup.
>> > You
>> > want to go shutter priority, but a low shutter speed. That will force
>> > the pan, and the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. The blur
>> > has
>> > more to do with lateral motion of the camera relative to the background
>> > than DOF, unless I'm deeply mistaken.
>>
>> Some of it depends upon the lens' "bouquet." Higher-quality lenses
>> produce a
>> very different, more-pleasing effect on the out-of-focus areas. People
>> pay
>> very big bucks, and heap lavish praise, on the superior "bouquet" offered
>> by
>> some lenses. And that "bouquet" varies, depending upon aperture... even
>> in a
>> heavily-panned shot.
>
> You're thinking of "bokeh." "Bouquet" is how the lens smells
> when uncorked - raspberries, earth, a touch of sea salt. Fine
> lenses have a terroir; they reflect the qualities of the place where
> they were designed and made. Or at least that's what people
> who overpay for Leicas say.
>
> "Bokeh" (which is a Japanese word) is real - it refers to the
> appearance of slightly out-of-focus areas, whose qualities are
> priily caused (IMO) by over- or under-corrected spherical
> aberration. However, differences are fairly subtle between
> lenses as long as they aren't mirror lenses, and I have to think
> the extra blur caused by panning would make it damn difficult
> to discern differences in bokeh.
>
> Incidentally, the "good" bokeh comes from _under_corrected
> spherical aberration, which means that turn-of-the-century view
> camera lenses and magnifying glasses have it. However,
> magnifying glasses aren't sharp enough for most people, so
> high-quality lenses must be well corrected for spherical aberration,
> and it's not as simple as saying that high-quality lens equals
> more pleasing bokeh.
>
> People who are camera-equipment geeks used to obsess over
> whether or not lenses were sharp. At some point, lens design
> and manufacture became good enough that most lenses (excepting
> the cheapest ones) were tolerably sharp especially if you closed
> them down a stop. Around this point, the equipment geeks
> started talking a lot about bokeh. It's hard to avoid thinking that
> it became important so that they would have something to argue
> about and sell more equipment. It's sort of like the way that
> road bikes are more consistently good than they were in 1975,
> so magazine articles split finer and finer hairs about distinctions
> in "stiffness" and "compliance."
>
> Cynically yours,
> Ben
>
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Date: 17 Jan 2007 22:52:02
From: Alan Hoyle
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On 17 Jan 2007 13:37:23 -0800, bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> "Bokeh" (which is a Japanese word) is real - it refers to the
> appearance of slightly out-of-focus areas, whose qualities are
> priily caused (IMO) by over- or under-corrected spherical
> aberration. However, differences are fairly subtle between
> lenses as long as they aren't mirror lenses, and I have to think
> the extra blur caused by panning would make it damn difficult
> to discern differences in bokeh.
> Incidentally, the "good" bokeh comes from _under_corrected
> spherical aberration, which means that turn-of-the-century view
> camera lenses and magnifying glasses have it. However,
> magnifying glasses aren't sharp enough for most people, so
> high-quality lenses must be well corrected for spherical aberration,
> and it's not as simple as saying that high-quality lens equals
> more pleasing bokeh.
Another factor in bokeh is the iris shape which is affected by its
number of "leaves." An out-of-focus point source will have that
outline, with the spherical aberration changing the distribution of
light within that outline. The more leaves, the closer the iris
approximates a circle.
-alan
--
Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
"I don't want the world, I just want your half." -TMBG
Get Horizontal, Play Ultimate.
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 06:29:08
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
In article
<19ocq2dscjjcj2cfr69ufg6ubna6fq95n6@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
> that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
> pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
> pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
> could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
> Anyone doing this right now?
For this I bought an immense memory card for the
camera, so upload can wait until later. To upload I
plug the camera into the computer and it shows up as a
memory device on the desktop of Mac OS X. Also have an
external power source for the camera when it is
connected to the computer.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 09:58:16
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:29:08 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>For this I bought an immense memory card for the
>camera, so upload can wait until later. To upload I
>plug the camera into the computer and it shows up as a
>memory device on the desktop of Mac OS X. Also have an
>external power source for the camera when it is
>connected to the computer.
The 2 GB SD is probably a day's worth of shots, but I want the option
to move the photos while on-site. There IS a value to taking the
tablet and putting it there - I can lable the directories immediately.
So maybe I'll take the tablet. It will just cut in half the number of
people I'm willing to have handle it.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 18:08:12
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> The 2 GB SD is probably a day's worth of shots, but I want the option
> to move the photos while on-site. There IS a value to taking the
> tablet and putting it there - I can lable the directories immediately.
> So maybe I'll take the tablet. It will just cut in half the number of
> people I'm willing to have handle it.
If you have an IPod you could also use it for temporary storage - I
think Apple do make a camera connector. Bit of an expensive solution if
you don't have a (20 or 40Gb) IPod though.
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 06:21:49
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
In article
<19ocq2dscjjcj2cfr69ufg6ubna6fq95n6@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
> an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
> digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
> but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
> 55-200 to work with.
Turn off the image stabilizer function.
Set it to shutter speed priority and use
1/1000th second.
I like the Panasonic Lumix DMW-CAC1PP.
It has all the bells and whistles, it has a bog
standard automatic setting that still uses some user
options, _and_ it has a `Hey, I'm stupid, I only want
to take a picture' setting that uses all factory values
for options you use when handing it to somebody to take
a picture of you and your girlf^W wife.
*****
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jan 2007 00:17:10
From: skuke
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:49 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <19ocq2dscjjcj2cfr69ufg6ubna6fq95n6@4ax.com>,
> Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>
> Turn off the image stabilizer function.
> Set it to shutter speed priority and use
> 1/1000th second.
>
I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.
However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.
Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
Canon 30d with good lenses.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Jan 2007 01:35:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
In article
<17zwqolozho4s$.1hv1y1kpdabo2$.dlg@40tude.net >,
skuke <skuke89@oohay.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:49 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <19ocq2dscjjcj2cfr69ufg6ubna6fq95n6@4ax.com>,
> > Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Turn off the image stabilizer function.
> > Set it to shutter speed priority and use
> > 1/1000th second.
> >
>
> I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.
>
> However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
> second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
> most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
> trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
> depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
> panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
> some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
> much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
> picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.
>
> Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
> many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
> speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
> Canon 30d with good lenses.
But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
--
Michael Press
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| | | | |
Date: 15 Jan 2007 09:10:12
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:35:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
>
>Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
>priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
Just a couple of comments - the reference to the sports program was
almost tongue in cheek - it has uses, but it really does the opposite
of what I would want to do in a pan. I think it would be a good choice
if you were doing auto shots of the finish and could guarantee a
regular delivery of bodies into the same focus areas at about the same
place for the series. Or if the line was really narrow in a corner.
The image stabilization is something that is of interest. AFAIK,
everything in the D40 is working from the body, at least with the
lenses I'm using. Also, the last time I did a lot of pans, it was with
a fully manual SLR and you had to know both speed and aperture. I had
to do something else this weekend, but my understanding is that lens
settings aren't exactly the same as for the old SLR standards, but not
sure if that is only re: the lens length and not the aperture as well.
My fading memory was that they are related - if so, I'll have to learn
it all over. Fortunately, since I forgot everything that I remember,
that will be easy...
The cool thing is that with a 2GB card (another on the way) and a 2.5
inch screen, you can try everything about a hundred times and see it
right then and there. No more waiting several days to see that I
screwed up the shot - I can know I screwed up the shot in great detail
a few seconds lateer and try something else.
I'll try aperture first, since setting the depth seems a bit more
important and let the camera figure out the rest. There is always full
manual...
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| | | | | |
Date: 16 Jan 2007 02:48:58
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
In article <e52nq29hnr4c3h87o2quhdjht4m28eog0c@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:35:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
> >
> >Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
> >priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
>
> Just a couple of comments - the reference to the sports program was
> almost tongue in cheek
> I'll try aperture first, since setting the depth seems a bit more
> important and let the camera figure out the rest. There is always full
> manual...
Some DSLR makers (Pentax, notably) have started including the clever new
feature of ISO (sensitivity) priority. If you're clever, most cameras
would let you pick two of the variables and the camera will fix the
third.
I think aperture priority is the wrong tactic for a fancy-pan setup. You
want to go shutter priority, but a low shutter speed. That will force
the pan, and the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. The blur has
more to do with lateral motion of the camera relative to the background
than DOF, unless I'm deeply mistaken.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jan 2007 21:04:39
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
> I think aperture priority is the wrong tactic for a fancy-pan setup. You
> want to go shutter priority, but a low shutter speed. That will force
> the pan, and the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. The blur has
> more to do with lateral motion of the camera relative to the background
> than DOF, unless I'm deeply mistaken.
Some of it depends upon the lens' "bouquet." Higher-quality lenses produce a
very different, more-pleasing effect on the out-of-focus areas. People pay
very big bucks, and heap lavish praise, on the superior "bouquet" offered by
some lenses. And that "bouquet" varies, depending upon aperture... even in a
heavily-panned shot.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote in message
news:rcousine-A2A6C4.18485915012007@news.telus.net...
> In article <e52nq29hnr4c3h87o2quhdjht4m28eog0c@4ax.com>,
> Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:35:36 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
>> >
>> >Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
>> >priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
>>
>> Just a couple of comments - the reference to the sports program was
>> almost tongue in cheek
>> I'll try aperture first, since setting the depth seems a bit more
>> important and let the camera figure out the rest. There is always full
>> manual...
>
> Some DSLR makers (Pentax, notably) have started including the clever new
> feature of ISO (sensitivity) priority. If you're clever, most cameras
> would let you pick two of the variables and the camera will fix the
> third.
>
> I think aperture priority is the wrong tactic for a fancy-pan setup. You
> want to go shutter priority, but a low shutter speed. That will force
> the pan, and the camera will pick the appropriate aperture. The blur has
> more to do with lateral motion of the camera relative to the background
> than DOF, unless I'm deeply mistaken.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Jan 2007 22:08:13
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
> Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
> priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
Depends upon the IS system. The "L"-series Canon lenses (and perhaps a
couple of their standard lenses, if I recall correctly) have a two-mode IS,
one being the standard mode, which stabilizes both horizontal & vertical
shake, and the other being just for vertical, so you can use it for panning
without ill effect.
I've used my brother's 70-200 2.8 L IS lens, and get *extraordinary* results
with it. You can hand-hold it at a long focal length at relatively-low
shutter speed. My own lens is a very-capable 70-200 F4 L, without IS. Image
quality is virtually identical, but the lack of IS limits what I can do with
it.
My guess is that many who don't like IS in certain (if not most) conditions
haven't used it on an "L" series glass.
But I definitely agree about not using the camera's sport mode program.
However, when lighting is adequate, I find aperture priority to be my choice
as often as not (so I can better control depth of field).
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message
news:rubrum-958E9E.17353813012007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article
> <17zwqolozho4s$.1hv1y1kpdabo2$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> skuke <skuke89@oohay.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:49 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <19ocq2dscjjcj2cfr69ufg6ubna6fq95n6@4ax.com>,
>> > Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Turn off the image stabilizer function.
>> > Set it to shutter speed priority and use
>> > 1/1000th second.
>> >
>>
>> I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.
>>
>> However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
>> second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
>> most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that
>> you're
>> trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
>> depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
>> panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely
>> have
>> some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
>> much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
>> picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.
>>
>> Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken
>> too
>> many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half
>> that
>> speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel
>> or
>> Canon 30d with good lenses.
>
> But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
>
> Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
> priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
>
> --
> Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 14 Jan 2007 07:08:30
From: skuke
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 22:08:13 -0800, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> I've used my brother's 70-200 2.8 L IS lens, and get *extraordinary* results
> with it. You can hand-hold it at a long focal length at relatively-low
> shutter speed. My own lens is a very-capable 70-200 F4 L, without IS. Image
> quality is virtually identical, but the lack of IS limits what I can do with
> it.
...and the fact that you can't open it bigger than F4 :-)
> However, when lighting is adequate, I find aperture priority to be my choice
> as often as not (so I can better control depth of field).
Interesting. I started shooting with the Canon Ftb way back in the early
70s. There was not aperture priority on that camera or the AE1. I just
learned DoF by playing with shutter speeds and allowing the camera to adjust
the aperture. I have a good feel for shutter speeds and what I can
accomplish in regards to DoF. Some of my friends who learned to shoot later
cameras do as you do. They can rattle off F-stop values and have a good
feel for what will happen. I haven't a clue! Well, I have a basic clue,
but not in terms of absolute numbers ...I guess because I never really paid
attention to what the F-stop was at any given shutter or film speed or lens
length and distance.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jan 2007 17:29:38
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
>> I've used my brother's 70-200 2.8 L IS lens, and get *extraordinary*
>> results
>> with it. You can hand-hold it at a long focal length at relatively-low
>> shutter speed. My own lens is a very-capable 70-200 F4 L, without IS.
>> Image
>> quality is virtually identical, but the lack of IS limits what I can do
>> with
>> it.
>
> ...and the fact that you can't open it bigger than F4 :-)
That's mean! :)
Actually, using the 70-200 2.8, I found I was rarely using it wide open
anyway. My dream lens (which I'll have to sell a lot more bikes to afford)
is the new 70-200 F4 IS. The main problem with the 2.8 is size; whatever
camera equipment I use has to be hauled with me on my bike. The F4 unit fits
nicely into LowePro's smallest backback, which I like to use because it
still allows access to my jersey pockets (where I keep my point & shoot).
>> However, when lighting is adequate, I find aperture priority to be my
>> choice
>> as often as not (so I can better control depth of field).
>
> Interesting. I started shooting with the Canon Ftb way back in the early
> 70s. There was not aperture priority on that camera or the AE1. I just
> learned DoF by playing with shutter speeds and allowing the camera to
> adjust
> the aperture. I have a good feel for shutter speeds and what I can
> accomplish in regards to DoF. Some of my friends who learned to shoot
> later
> cameras do as you do. They can rattle off F-stop values and have a good
> feel for what will happen. I haven't a clue! Well, I have a basic clue,
> but not in terms of absolute numbers ...I guess because I never really
> paid
> attention to what the F-stop was at any given shutter or film speed or
> lens
> length and distance.
I used to work exactly like that! But then the advent of point-and-shoot
digitals changed everything, because depth of field issues pretty much
became irrelevant due to tiny sensor sizes. Then you move to a digital SLR
and there's this whole new world of DoF at your disposal that you want to
play with. And it's not even the whole world, really, since I'm still not
using a full-frame sensor.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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Date: 14 Jan 2007 02:34:48
From: skuke
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 01:35:36 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <17zwqolozho4s$.1hv1y1kpdabo2$.dlg@40tude.net>,
> skuke <skuke89@oohay.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:21:49 GMT, Michael Press wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Turn off the image stabilizer function.
>>> Set it to shutter speed priority and use
>>> 1/1000th second.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that you're generally better turning off IS.
>>
>> However, I think your shutter speed is WAAAAY too fast. Sure, at 1/1000
>> second everything gets frozen as if dipped in liguid nitrogen. However,
>> most of your photos will be not have the "action" of live sports that you're
>> trying to capture. I'd set the shutter speed to around 1/100 (or less)
>> depending on you ISO, lens and available light. When you get decent at
>> panning at that speed, your background and bike wheels will definitely have
>> some blurr while the rider remains sharp and in focus. This makes for a
>> much more interesting photograph (NOT a snapshot and NOT a
>> picture)(semantics) and you get that action and speed effect.
>>
>> Please don't think that 1/100 is too slow for a bike race. I have taken too
>> many bicycle and car race (moving over 5x faster) photos at almost half that
>> speed. I've used a Canon Ftb, AE1 (both are film) or Canon Digital Rebel or
>> Canon 30d with good lenses.
>
> But I _like_ the liquid nitrogen look. :)
Depending on the lens and distance, with a shutter speed at 1/1000, you'll
have a wide open aperature and thus your most shallow depth of field.
That'll give you a soft focus (blurred) background with frozen sharp wheels
(the only thing in the photo moving at a relatively high speed and in the
area of focus). ...so unless you're fairly distant from your subject, you
won't get your liguid Nitrogen look :-p
>
> Then we agree. Image stabilization off, shutter speed
> priority. Ditch the camera's sport program.
Yes, shutter speed priority and dump the camera's pre-programmed modes of
operation.
Generally, no image stabilization. I think it gonna matter whether the IS
is built into the lens or the body. Also, IIRC, some of the high end Canons
can utilize IS while panning (without freaking out). Definitely, the entry
level cameras have a problem panning with IS turned on. However, the OP has
a Nikon and I'm not familiar with their system.
--
Skuke
Reverse the domain name to send email
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 18:43:36
From: k.papai
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Don't use those idiot settings (a "Sports" setting).
Learn how your camera works and shoot sports in the Tv (time value, or
shutter speed control) mode.
-Ken
On Jan 11, 8:20 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
> an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
> digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
> but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
> 55-200 to work with.
>
> Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
> that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
> pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
> pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
> could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
> Anyone doing this right now?
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 04:08:28
From: Steven Bornfeld
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
k.papai wrote:
> Don't use those idiot settings (a "Sports" setting).
> Learn how your camera works and shoot sports in the Tv (time value, or
> shutter speed control) mode.
>
> -Ken
Good to see you posting!
Steve
>
> On Jan 11, 8:20 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
>> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
>> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
>> an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
>> digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
>> but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
>> 55-200 to work with.
>>
>> Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
>> that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
>> pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
>> pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
>> could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
>> Anyone doing this right now?
>>
>> Curtis L. Russell
>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>> Just someone on two wheels...
>
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 19:04:06
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:20:00 -0500, Curtis L. Russell
<curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
>I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
>SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
>shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
>an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
>digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
>but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
>55-200 to work with.
>
>Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
>that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
>pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
>pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
>could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
>Anyone doing this right now?
Our local cycling news site does a lot of photos like that
eg http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1139
And they just put them online fast after the race for people to look
at or save.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 13:54:59
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
> an anti-pan setting. Anyone that has tried successfully panning with a
> digital SLR that has any suggestions? The D40 is an entry-level DSR,
> but has most of the options of digital SLRs. I have a 18-55 and a
> 55-200 to work with.
>
> Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
> that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
> pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
> pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
> could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
> Anyone doing this right now?
The sports setting probably tries to set as fast a shutter speed
as it can. If you're panning to follow the racers and blur the
background, this will work against you. You could try
setting the camera in shutter priority mode and experimenting
to find what speed gives the best results when panning, then
use that. The actual speed to use probably depends on how
close you are to the racers (and the focal length your lens is at).
For upload, you could get two SD cards, and have a laptop with
either an SD slot or a USB SD card reader (inexpensive). Take
SD card out of the camera, (you can still shoot on the second
SD card), copy pics off, look at them on the laptop, copy pics
to USB drive as desired. Using a card reader is generally less
of a PITA than hooking the camera directly to a computer; it
also saves camera battery and leaves the camera free for
shooting. Any old laptop will work for this. I don't know of a
special purpose device, although there might be one.
Ben
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 09:53:59
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On 11 Jan 2007 13:54:59 -0800, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>For upload, you could get two SD cards, and have a laptop with
>either an SD slot or a USB SD card reader (inexpensive). Take
>SD card out of the camera, (you can still shoot on the second
>SD card), copy pics off, look at them on the laptop, copy pics
>to USB drive as desired. Using a card reader is generally less
>of a PITA than hooking the camera directly to a computer; it
>also saves camera battery and leaves the camera free for
>shooting. Any old laptop will work for this. I don't know of a
>special purpose device, although there might be one.
I have a tablet PC that coincidentally has as the default card slot
(other than USB and PC Cards) the same SD slot as the Nikon. Absent
anything else, I'll haul it around. It has a double battery and should
last the day - and there is the car-based charger in the Prius.
However, having done official's paperwork in bad conditions, I would
prefer a $ 200-300 device, not my priy work tool. Especially if
other people handle it. Hate to have them stumble on the two GBs of
Ann gret and Annette Funicello fakes (from a site posted by ED, two
levels up and one click over...)
It would seem to be something that would be useful - somewhat
hardened, few moving parts, just enough 'system' to move and show
photos. The displays being sold are almost there, but the best don't
have much memory (can live with that) and appear to copy from but not
to the USB sticks.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 21:21:04
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
> an anti-pan setting.
The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
highest-possible shutter speed. That means opening up the aperture and
sometimes kicking up the ISO. The idea is to "freeze" a moving object via
high shutter speed. But when panning, you're following the object, and if
the intent is to blur the background, while keeping the cyclist clear, it's
the wrong setting.
You'll still want to run a wide aperture (to help blur the background) for
most panning shots, but for a shutter speed, perhaps something around
1/250th for a normal focal length. If your flash is strong enough, that can
help as well.
A really good place to practice would be at the track, if there's one
nearby.
>I have a 18-55 and a
> 55-200 to work with.
The 55-200 is going to be a bit long for most panning shots, unless you're
trying to get just part of a rider. It's also probably a bit slow (not very
wide aperture). If you want to experiment with really wide apertures (to
really blur everything but what's in focus), you might see if there's a
cheap 50mm 1.8 lens available for the Nikon. Canon has one for their cameras
that runs less than $100. Yeah, it's cheap plastic, but the optics are
pretty good.
> Also, my intent is to take the shots and upload them to a photo device
> that would help conserve the camera's battery and also let me pass the
> pictures from the Secure Digital (SD) card, display the pictures and
> pass them to as many other storage media as possible (so the racers
> could take the pictures with them on a USB memory stick or whatever).
> Anyone doing this right now?
Probably more trouble than it's worth. You'd pretty much need to haul a
laptop with you. Might be best just to get emails and send them to them. Or,
better yet, just upload them when you get home to a Picasa page, like this-
http://picasaweb.google.com/ChainReactionBicycles. Then the riders can
download whatever they want.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 23:42:01
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
>> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
>> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
>> an anti-pan setting.
>
> The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
> highest-possible shutter speed.
My advice: the blurred-background shots look goofy: it's a gimmick. The
best cycling photography freezes the shot.
Dan
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 07:01:12
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
>>> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
>>> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
>>> shots in the spring. The sports setting on the Nikon D40 seems to be
>>> an anti-pan setting.
>>
>> The "sport" setting on most cameras does what it can to get the
>> highest-possible shutter speed.
>
> My advice: the blurred-background shots look goofy: it's a gimmick. The
> best cycling photography freezes the shot.
>
> Dan
But there will be times when there really isn't a choice, typically when
there's simply not enough light for a fast-enough shutter speed. In some
cases, you'll need 1/1000th or better to freeze everything, particularly if
you're shooting perpendicular to the action.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 21:50:03
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
> shots in the spring.
Good to see you're back. We were worried about you:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/5804a8ea5cf7e635
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 15:44:58
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Pan shots, bicycle racing and digital cameras
|
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:50:03 +0200, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Curtis L. Russell wrote:
>
>> I've been using the up-to-recently warm weather to try the new digital
>> SLR taking pan shots of bycycle riders in preparation of taking racing
>> shots in the spring.
>
>Good to see you're back. We were worried about you:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/5804a8ea5cf7e635
Don't much like the implications of that post, but I was busy at work
and volunteering at a non-profit for a while. I've been reading most
of the time since, but not posting for the following reasons:
1) Monumentally disinterested in all things to do with drugs in
bicycling racing, unless they get tied to major heroin or coke rings
2) Finding the injustice to people in their early 30s trying to avoid
a normal job low on my injustice meter
3)Having not raced in a serious manner since I was riding a new
Italvega Superspecialle with a 5-block Regina, I don't have anything
to add to the very few racing threads
4) Not having a degree in engineering, not much to say in most of the
other long threads
5)Realized that semi-long responses that really amount to "I agree
with the better answer two posts up" aren't really a great use of
time, mine writing or someone else reading...
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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