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Main
Date: 05 Sep 2007 20:29:25
From: Charles
Subject: Papp, Joseph
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Who was Joe Papp's recent Team Director? Was it Joe Sailing, part of
the NJ "cycling mafia" as we called them.
I ask because of what I read in an interview in Velonews:
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/13149.0.html
snipped > VeloNews: As I understand it you were taking EPO, found out
you had a much higher hematocrit than expected and went on a blood
thinner to attempt to avoid the risk of a blood clot or other
complication resulting from high hematocrit. Exactly how high did your
hematocrit go?
Joe Papp: 58
VN: Did anyone suggest the blood thinner to you such as a medically-
trained person?
JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
trained.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 17:41:54
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 7, 5:13 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Cat 3's do less steroids ?
that's right ... those Cat 3's just aren't committed enough.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 01:41:17
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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> > in any event ... a quick Wikipedia check of current NFL coaches showed
> > that they all (not 100% sure of Detroit) played college ball or higher.
>
> Sounds like the middle ranks of amateur football to me.
I wouldn't equate college football with Cat 3 bike racing.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 11:13:48
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
> I wouldn't equate college football with Cat 3 bike racing.
Cat 3's do less steroids ?
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 09:21:12
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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Donald Munro wrote:
> derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
>> I wouldn't equate college football with Cat 3 bike racing.
>
> Cat 3's do less steroids ?
>
College football players get paid a lot more.
I'm not so sure about the steroids thing.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 20:32:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I wouldn't equate college football with Cat 3 bike racing.
Donald Munro wrote:
>> Cat 3's do less steroids ?
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> College football players get paid a lot more.
They probably get laid a lot more too.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 13:04:09
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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Donald Munro wrote:
> derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> I wouldn't equate college football with Cat 3 bike racing.
>
> Donald Munro wrote:
>>> Cat 3's do less steroids ?
>
> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> College football players get paid a lot more.
>
> They probably get laid a lot more too.
>
I'm not going there. Last time I went there, you brought up Tammy Thomas.
I learned MY lesson.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 01:20:19
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 6, 8:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>
> Landry was an excellent pro defensive back.
And Casey Stengel played in the majors.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 19:31:51
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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In article <1189128019.789930.248770@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >,
"derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 8:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Landry was an excellent pro defensive back.
>
> And Casey Stengel played in the majors.
For what it's worth, I believe that more than a few gymnastics coaches were never
particularly good at gymnastics (if they even did them). Anyway, I think coaching and
being a good racer are two different skill sets. A coach should be able to describe
or motivate his client to be able to perform certain skills, but that doesn't really
mean they had to have been good at performing those skills themselves. They may have
known what was required to be a successful racer but simply lacked the power to
actually succeed at doing those things.
--
tanx,
Howard
Faberge eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberge bacon.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 10:32:22
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:31:51 -0700, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com >
wrote:
>In article <1189128019.789930.248770@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
> "derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 6, 8:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Landry was an excellent pro defensive back.
>>
>> And Casey Stengel played in the majors.
>
> For what it's worth, I believe that more than a few gymnastics coaches were never
>particularly good at gymnastics (if they even did them). Anyway, I think coaching and
>being a good racer are two different skill sets. A coach should be able to describe
>or motivate his client to be able to perform certain skills, but that doesn't really
>mean they had to have been good at performing those skills themselves. They may have
>known what was required to be a successful racer but simply lacked the power to
>actually succeed at doing those things.
That's the coach I"m looking for. The one who may not have had physical gifts,
but figured out how to do well anyway. I don't know how much of that applies in
cycling, where a smart guy makes up for a lack of physical talent. I do know
there are guys who are almost too smart for the game who are better as coaches.
Ron
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 20:31:21
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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> well we all know we could coach better than our favorite team's coach
> did last Sunday.
in any event ... a quick Wikipedia check of current NFL coaches showed
that they all (not 100% sure of Detroit) played college ball or higher.
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 01:31:13
From: Jim Flom
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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<derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189110681.407173.199050@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
>> well we all know we could coach better than our favorite team's coach
>> did last Sunday.
>
> in any event ... a quick Wikipedia check of current NFL coaches showed
> that they all (not 100% sure of Detroit) played college ball or higher.
Sounds like the middle ranks of amateur football to me.
--
JF
http://velominator.spaces.live.com/
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 16:09:29
From: WeaselPoopPower
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
>> well we all know we could coach better than our favorite team's coach
>> did last Sunday.
>
> in any event ... a quick Wikipedia check of current NFL coaches showed
> that they all (not 100% sure of Detroit) played college ball or higher.
>
So if ~100% of all NFL coaches are ex-players and ~90% of all players
are not white but ~98% of coaches are... statistics obviously show Joe
Papp is an excellent coaching candidate in the equal opportunity melting
pot known as America. Speaking of Detroit Lions football coaches...
anyone ever go through a drive through naked?
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 19:37:56
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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> Don't buy an NFL team then.
well we all know we could coach better than our favorite team's coach
did last Sunday.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 11:50:04
From: Andy Coggan
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 6, 11:36 am, "derFah...@gmail.com" <derFah...@gmail.com > wrote:
> What's the coach : racer ratio these days?
If I'm remembering the figures correctly, here in the US it's about
1 : 500.
Andy Coggan
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 11:27:37
From:
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 6, 10:54 am, "Jim Flom" <jim.flomREM...@telus.net > wrote:
> <derFah...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1189098259.966755.270970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> > wrote:
>
> >> So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
>
> > I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
> > requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
> > well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
> > to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
> > cycling.
>
> Don't buy an NFL team then.
Owww, that really hit the mark.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 17:04:19
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid >
wrote:
>
> So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
cycling.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 23:13:05
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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In article
<1189098259.966755.270970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
"derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
> >
> > So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
>
> I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
> requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
> well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
> to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
> cycling.
The great coaches did not play the game at high levels.
Scotty Bowman, Casey Stengal, Tom Landry to name but a few.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 08:11:43
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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Michael Press wrote:
>
> The great coaches did not play the game at high levels.
> Scotty Bowman, Casey Stengal, Tom Landry to name but a few.
>
It could certainly be argued that Scotty *coached* at a beginning level
and as his experience grew he coached at higher and higher levels until
the NHL expansion at which time I believe he landed a coaching job with
the Blues ?
And as a Junior - Playing in Canada was certainly at a *much* higher
level than a Cat III in my opinion.
Bill
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 08:59:07
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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William R. Mattil wrote:
> And as a Junior - Playing in Canada was certainly at a *much* higher
> level than a Cat III in my opinion.
And Scotty topped out due to injury rather than ability. Which
worked out well because it got him started in coaching earlier.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 20:20:48
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:13:05 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
>In article
><1189098259.966755.270970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
>>
>> I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
>> requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
>> well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
>> to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
>> cycling.
>
>The great coaches did not play the game at high levels.
>Scotty Bowman, Casey Stengal, Tom Landry to name but a few.
Landry was an excellent pro defensive back.
Ron
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Date: 07 Sep 2007 01:21:26
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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RonSonic wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 23:13:05 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <1189098259.966755.270970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> "derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
>>> I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
>>> requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
>>> well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
>>> to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
>>> cycling.
>> The great coaches did not play the game at high levels.
>> Scotty Bowman, Casey Stengal, Tom Landry to name but a few.
>
> Landry was an excellent pro defensive back.
Stengal played 14 seasons of MLB as an outfielder.
Bob Schwartz
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 17:54:18
From: Jim Flom
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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<derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189098259.966755.270970@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 6, 12:49 pm, Ewoud Dronkert <firstn...@lastname.net.invalid>
> wrote:
>>
>> So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
>
> I think ability doesn't make one a good coach, but being a good coach
> requires some ability. (that seems to hold for other sports as
> well). Certainly there are exceptions ... but I wouldn't give money
> to someone who couldn't move out of the middle ranks of amateur
> cycling.
>
Don't buy an NFL team then.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 16:36:01
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 6, 11:00 am, bre...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> "Joe Papp Accepting Coaching Clients
> Added: 2007-08-29 15:35:46
> Work with a USA Cycling-licensed elite coach who will help you reach
> your cycling goals, and encourage you to do so cleanly!"
What is it with all these people becoming 'coaches'? You got guys who
didn't win crap as Cat 3's getting paid to tell people how reach their
cycling goals?
What's the coach : racer ratio these days?
And what's worse ... all these people pretending to be coaches, or
that people pay them?
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 20:25:38
From:
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:36:01 -0000, "derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com >
wrote:
>On Sep 6, 11:00 am, bre...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> "Joe Papp Accepting Coaching Clients
>> Added: 2007-08-29 15:35:46
>> Work with a USA Cycling-licensed elite coach who will help you reach
>> your cycling goals, and encourage you to do so cleanly!"
>
>What is it with all these people becoming 'coaches'? You got guys who
>didn't win crap as Cat 3's getting paid to tell people how reach their
>cycling goals?
>
>What's the coach : racer ratio these days?
>
>And what's worse ... all these people pretending to be coaches, or
>that people pay them?
Think Golf as the model. Golf pro's mostly coach, compete enough for cred and
experience, but mostly they coach.
That seems to be what's evolving in the US for cycling. That's going to be the
next essential accessory for all fatty masters, a coach. Unless I'm out of the
loop and all the other fatty masters already have them.
Ron
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 18:49:27
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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derFahrer@gmail.com schreef:
> What is it with all these people becoming 'coaches'? You got guys who
> didn't win crap as Cat 3's getting paid to tell people how reach their
> cycling goals?
So you think cycling and coaching ability are correlated?
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 15:00:06
From:
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 5, 11:52 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 8:29 pm, Charles <h90...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I ask because of what I read in an interview in Velonews:http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/13149.0.html
>
> > As I understand it you were taking EPO, found out
> > you had a much higher hematocrit than expected and went on a blood
> > thinner to attempt to avoid the risk of a blood clot or other
> > complication resulting from high hematocrit. Exactly how high did your
> > hematocrit go?
>
> > Joe Papp: 58
>
> > VN: Did anyone suggest the blood thinner to you such as a medically-
> > trained person?
>
> > JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
> > trained.
>
> Jesus Christ. I would have read that stupid CyclingNews diary
> religiously if he were publishing this kind of great stuff in there.
> What a bunch of fucking amateurs. I bet he would have done a Cytomax
> douche up his mangina if his DS told him it would help.
>
> Crashing out with anticoags running through the blood would be a bad
> scene. Not to mention getting the old Polar to read out something in
> the high 180s with an HCT of 58. Unfuckingbelievable. I love it.
>
> Thanks Joe,
> DA74
I like this from the official Joe Papp site:
"Joe Papp Accepting Coaching Clients
Added: 2007-08-29 15:35:46
Work with a USA Cycling-licensed elite coach who will help you reach
your cycling goals, and encourage you to do so cleanly!"
----
Dan Brekke
http://on-the-bike.net/
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Date: 05 Sep 2007 23:52:35
From: DA74
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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On Sep 5, 8:29 pm, Charles <h90...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> I ask because of what I read in an interview in Velonews:http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/13149.0.html
>
> As I understand it you were taking EPO, found out
> you had a much higher hematocrit than expected and went on a blood
> thinner to attempt to avoid the risk of a blood clot or other
> complication resulting from high hematocrit. Exactly how high did your
> hematocrit go?
>
> Joe Papp: 58
>
> VN: Did anyone suggest the blood thinner to you such as a medically-
> trained person?
>
> JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
> trained.
Jesus Christ. I would have read that stupid CyclingNews diary
religiously if he were publishing this kind of great stuff in there.
What a bunch of fucking amateurs. I bet he would have done a Cytomax
douche up his mangina if his DS told him it would help.
Crashing out with anticoags running through the blood would be a bad
scene. Not to mention getting the old Polar to read out something in
the high 180s with an HCT of 58. Unfuckingbelievable. I love it.
Thanks Joe,
DA74
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Date: 05 Sep 2007 20:44:56
From: Charles
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
|
On Sep 5, 8:35 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Charles" <h90...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1189049365.909409.298580@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Who was Joe Papp's recent Team Director? Was it Joe Sailing, part of
> > the NJ "cycling mafia" as we called them.
>
> > JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
> > trained.
>
> Well, I know that I would jump at the chance of taking dangerous drugs if it
> was suggested by a nobody without the slightest medical training. This is
> ALL on Joe Papp and no one else.
No shit Sherlock, but someone else was involved. e.g. someone else
participated. He allowed it but ... Obviously
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Date: 05 Sep 2007 20:35:38
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
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"Charles" <h90943@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1189049365.909409.298580@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Who was Joe Papp's recent Team Director? Was it Joe Sailing, part of
> the NJ "cycling mafia" as we called them.
>
> JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
> trained.
Well, I know that I would jump at the chance of taking dangerous drugs if it
was suggested by a nobody without the slightest medical training. This is
ALL on Joe Papp and no one else.
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Date: 06 Sep 2007 06:24:45
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Papp, Joseph
|
In article <13dutccfge4n012@corp.supernews.com >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Charles" <h90943@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1189049365.909409.298580@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> > Who was Joe Papp's recent Team Director? Was it Joe Sailing, part of
> > the NJ "cycling mafia" as we called them.
> >
> > JP: It was suggested to me by my team director, who was not medically-
> > trained.
>
> Well, I know that I would jump at the chance of taking dangerous drugs if it
> was suggested by a nobody without the slightest medical training. This is
> ALL on Joe Papp and no one else.
1) Joe Papp is fundamentally responsible for what goes into his body
with his knowledge.
2) If someone else is encouraging Joe to put something into his body,
and that someone else should know better (in this case, they ought to
have known that they had no clue and were risking Joe's life), then they
have moral culpability. The fact that in this case, consequences were
dodged shouldn't mitigate that culpability, though for very good reasons
it changes their legal culpability.
Blind men ought not to advertise themselves as sight-guides for the
visually impaired,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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