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Main
Date: 10 Jul 2007 13:30:02
From:
Subject: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
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Hello,
I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 03:56:22
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
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On Jul 14, 7:57 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> >> You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the frame?
>
> > The smallish dog wasn't even hurt Mike. The head tube snapped off cleanly
> > CAUSING the crash not vise versa. Tell me, have you EVER seen the head
> > tube snap off of any other bike?
>
> Yes. It was pretty common on one famous-label aluminum frame maybe six or
> seven years ago. Metal-matrix something-or-other they called it. I've also
> seen it on steel mountain bike frames. The former was due to incorrect use
> of material, the latter was clearly an issue caused by too-little surface
> area for the weld.
http://www.catshill.org/catscourse.html
"In the 1979 race, Jeff Stevenson ripped the head tube from
his Schwinn Paramount in a final lunge at the [Cat's] Hill."
Parlees are fancy expensive ultralight bikes, aren't
they? If you want a durable bike, ultralight might
not be the best way to go. However, I think that
any crash with enough impact to cause noticeable
frame damage is already likely to have thrown the
rider, before the broken frame could cause
a fall. An exception might be if your forks instantly
snap off.
In garden variety everyday crashes I've damaged myself
much more easily than the bicycle. Often your hip
or shoulder takes the impact, sparing everything on the
bike except the pedal ends and brake levers.
Ben
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 10:25:22
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
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bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Parlees are fancy expensive ultralight bikes, aren't
> they? If you want a durable bike, ultralight might
> not be the best way to go.
And if you build a steel bike as light it would be more likely to break
than a carbon one of similar weight would.
> However, I think that any crash with enough impact to cause noticeable
> frame damage is already likely to have thrown the rider, before the
> broken frame could cause a fall.
The % of crashes that would be bad enough to cause a frame to break must
be quite low (although handlebars denting top tubes is probably more
common).
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
steel frame has snapped in half.
On Jul 13, 3:51 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:57:08 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
>
> <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This will
> >make composites much less susceptible to delamination. Other materials
> >such as Reynolds 953 stainless steel are very close in terms of weight
> >but the great thing is how strong and durable the frames are.
>
> Are you saying that among very light frames steel is more durable? I
> doubt that.
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 05:10:54
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
>other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
>sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
>steel frame has snapped in half.
FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
half while someone is riding.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 23:24:35
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:2o4h93dsu3k6s185lmqnj4lpttar7h9mdq@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
> <hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
>>other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
>>sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
>>steel frame has snapped in half.
>
> FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
> half while someone is riding.
No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike would
bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
If you're supported by a sponsor who is buying your bikes it's no big deal,
but if my Colnago C40 breaks (unlikely) I have to cough up the $7K+ myself.
Mind you, I've seen steel bikes break but all of them were ridden back home.
My AL frame and the carbon frames I've seen broken were not ridable.
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 13:30:52
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <TWcmi.7545$tj6.5586@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
> news:2o4h93dsu3k6s185lmqnj4lpttar7h9mdq@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
>> <hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
>>>other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
>>>sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
>>>steel frame has snapped in half.
>>
>> FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
>> half while someone is riding.
>
> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike would
> bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
And my personal, direct experience is the complete opposite. I crashed a
carbon bike into solid granite at 46 mph. It took me four months to
recover to point I could get back on the bike, but (apart from the Ksyrium
front wheel) the bike was undamaged. I replaced the bars and forks as a
precaution, but apart from that I'm still riding the same bike:
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html
I do not believe any metal bike could have survived that crash. It would
have been pretzelled. Carbon monocoque is just much stronger and much more
resilient than any metal tubing.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 09:54:09
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
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On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:30:52 +0100, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
>And my personal, direct experience is the complete opposite. I crashed a
>carbon bike into solid granite at 46 mph. It took me four months to
>recover to point I could get back on the bike, but (apart from the Ksyrium
>front wheel) the bike was undamaged. I replaced the bars and forks as a
>precaution, but apart from that I'm still riding the same bike:
>http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html
OMG, the thing with carbon is it could be critically damaged and you
would never know. Until it fails dramatically. You might never know
it'll happen and then, suddenly! CRACK. Is WACK.
I knew a guy who knew a guy who said someone was riding a carbon frame
that looked fine, then just collapsed. Came home in a box. Not sure if
it was the pieces of the frame or the rider in the box, but something
came home in a box.
Don't risk it.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 20:51:35
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:54:09 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>>http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html
>
>OMG, the thing with carbon is it could be critically damaged and you
>would never know.
Oh yes you would - he sent it back to the people who built it to be
checked.
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 18:17:20
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <9k9k9314beneqg4v5v59h26t28r2f594f0@4ax.com >, John Forrest
Tomlinson ('usenetremove@jt10000.com') wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:30:52 +0100, Simon Brooke
> <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>And my personal, direct experience is the complete opposite. I crashed a
>>carbon bike into solid granite at 46 mph. It took me four months to
>>recover to point I could get back on the bike, but (apart from the
>>Ksyrium front wheel) the bike was undamaged. I replaced the bars and
>>forks as a precaution, but apart from that I'm still riding the same
>>bike: http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html
>
> OMG, the thing with carbon is it could be critically damaged and you
> would never know.
Uh-huh. But it isn't. It's gone back to it's makers, been put on their
stress test rig, checked. It's fine.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
[update three years after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 15:17:06
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
In article <0e1qm4-26o.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk >,
Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
> in message <9k9k9314beneqg4v5v59h26t28r2f594f0@4ax.com>, John Forrest
> Tomlinson ('usenetremove@jt10000.com') wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:30:52 +0100, Simon Brooke
> > <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>And my personal, direct experience is the complete opposite. I crashed a
> >>carbon bike into solid granite at 46 mph. It took me four months to
> >>recover to point I could get back on the bike, but (apart from the
> >>Ksyrium front wheel) the bike was undamaged. I replaced the bars and
> >>forks as a precaution, but apart from that I'm still riding the same
> >>bike: http://www.jasmine.org.uk/dogfood/story/article_41.html
> >
> > OMG, the thing with carbon is it could be critically damaged and you
> > would never know.
>
> Uh-huh. But it isn't. It's gone back to it's makers, been put on their
> stress test rig, checked. It's fine.
Simon, I'm shocked that you missed it on this one. Shocked, I tell you! The rest
of JFT's post shoulda been a clue that he was just funnin':
"Until it fails dramatically. You might never know
it'll happen and then, suddenly! CRACK. Is WACK.
I knew a guy who knew a guy who said someone was riding a carbon frame
that looked fine, then just collapsed. Came home in a box. Not sure if
it was the pieces of the frame or the rider in the box, but something
came home in a box.
Don't risk it."
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 15 Jul 2007 20:26:08
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> OMG, the thing with carbon is it could be critically damaged and you
>> would never know.
Simon Brooke wrote:
> Uh-huh. But it isn't. It's gone back to it's makers, been put on their
> stress test rig, checked. It's fine.
Dumbass,
JFT was just trying to provide you with a good excuse to get a shiny new
frame to improve your fatty master ranking (my fatty master ranking must
have slipped rather badly since I'm riding a 3 year old frame; a top
ranked fatty master should replace his frame at least once a year,
ask Mike).
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 01:19:14
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
I discovered that there is companies producing 3d weave composites
(http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-sbwf.htm ). But not all composites
are 3d. I am not sure how many companies are adopting 3d weave
composites. This explain the wide variation in composite frames.
On Jul 13, 3:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1184360228.257159.194690@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > The future of carbon is when companies develop a 3D weave. This will
> > make composites much less susceptible to delamination.
>
> I don't know where you're getting such ideas but that simply isn't true.
> Delamination will always occur along the glue joint regardless of the
> surface smoothness. Today's carbon fiber is three dimensional - the resin
> thoroughly impregnates the weave.
>
> Delamination doesn't occur because of slipage of one lamination against
> another which "3-D" would inhibit, but because the resin fractures with
> excessive flexure.
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 13:57:08
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
The future of carbon is when companies develop a 3D weave. This will
make composites much less susceptible to delamination. Other materials
such as Reynolds 953 stainless steel are very close in terms of weight
but the great thing is how strong and durable the frames are. I will
be excited when Reynolds comes out with a seamess version of 953.
>
> > And by "when push comes to shove, Trek will come out on top", I assume
> > Mike
> > means within Trek itself ... While Trek is the 800-lb gorilla in the US
> > bike
> > world these days, I'm glad to see there there are LOTS of innovative
> > competitors still using a variety of materials including steel.
>
> Well, sort of. You're likely to see more "US" innovation in construction =
and
> design using steel, and certainly gorgeous graphics and styling from the
> likes of Calfee and Parlee. But for carbon, the future is where the money
> is. It costs a fortune to come up and implement modern carbon designs, and
> there are only a handful of companies in the world that are really doing =
it.
> Very few mainstream bike companies do much more than visit China, attend
> sessions on what that particular factory is going to be offering for the
> next couple of years, tweak certain parameters to accomplish an individual
> style and have them manufactured for them. One factory in particular makes
> bikes for a whole lot of different companies, and it would take a very na=
ive
> person to believe there will be substantial differences in construction
> techniques and quality between them.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com> wrote in messagenews:C2BCD1=
18.5DEF9%stevens@veloworks.com...
>
> > On 07/13/2007 01:08 AM, in article
> > _xFli.7501$zA4.5...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > <Mik...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >> Aside from the use of Bontrager components, there are significant
> >> differences between brands. Trek and LeMond, for example, have very
> >> different frame geometries and construction. The various brand managers
> >> are
> >> fiercely competitive, not just with brands from elsewhere, but within
> >> Waterloo Wisconsin as well. Lots of turf wars and battles for resource=
s,
> >> which is a good thing. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, Trek
> >> will
> >> come out on top.
>
> > I remember when both Trek and LeMond had their OCLV frames ... And the
> > only
> > difference in "geometry" was how the frames were measured.
>
> > Trek measured C-T, whereas LeMond measured C-C, so a 56 cm Trek OCLV 55=
00
> > frame was called a 54 cm LeMond OCLV "Maillot Jaune" frame (to give the
> > "longer" top tube associated with LeMond geometry).
>
> > These days, at least at the top end, I'd have to agree with Mike ... The
> > LeMonds are very different than the Treks ...
>
> > The Trek Madone pretty much has NO similarity to the LeMond T=EAte de
> > Course,
> > other than both being made of carbon fibre.
>
> > And by "when push comes to shove, Trek will come out on top", I assume
> > Mike
> > means within Trek itself ... While Trek is the 800-lb gorilla in the US
> > bike
> > world these days, I'm glad to see there there are LOTS of innovative
> > competitors still using a variety of materials including steel.
>
> > I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
> > Calfee
> > bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>
> > But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primaril=
y a
> > lugged steel rider.
>
> > --
> > Steven L. Sheffield
> > stevens at veloworks dot com
> > bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
> > ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
> > aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> > double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 18:51:41
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:57:08 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote:
> This will
>make composites much less susceptible to delamination. Other materials
>such as Reynolds 953 stainless steel are very close in terms of weight
>but the great thing is how strong and durable the frames are.
Are you saying that among very light frames steel is more durable? I
doubt that.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 09:53:57
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <ne0g93pjudv1het1dmv2dq15uiuck15c1m@4ax.com >, John Forrest
Tomlinson ('usenetremove@jt10000.com') wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:57:08 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
> <hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> This will
>>make composites much less susceptible to delamination. Other materials
>>such as Reynolds 953 stainless steel are very close in terms of weight
>>but the great thing is how strong and durable the frames are.
>
> Are you saying that among very light frames steel is more durable? I
> doubt that.
So do I. I know from experience that (some) carbon fibre bikes are
extraordinarily strong. Much as I like steel as a material, I don't
believe any steel frame would have survived the crash I had 18 months
ago - but my carbon Dolan did, and has done a few thousand miles since.
And it's both wonderfully stiff and wonderfully comfortable - which is an
unbeatable combination, in my book.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wise man with foot in mouth use opportunity to clean toes.
;; the Worlock
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 09:53:15
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
>> This will
>>make composites much less susceptible to delamination. Other materials
>>such as Reynolds 953 stainless steel are very close in terms of weight
>>but the great thing is how strong and durable the frames are.
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Are you saying that among very light frames steel is more durable? I
> doubt that.
Only when they have an EU warranty. Ask our old friend Justin.
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 22:01:36
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1184360228.257159.194690@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> The future of carbon is when companies develop a 3D weave. This will
> make composites much less susceptible to delamination.
I don't know where you're getting such ideas but that simply isn't true.
Delamination will always occur along the glue joint regardless of the
surface smoothness. Today's carbon fiber is three dimensional - the resin
thoroughly impregnates the weave.
Delamination doesn't occur because of slipage of one lamination against
another which "3-D" would inhibit, but because the resin fractures with
excessive flexure.
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Date: 14 Jul 2007 13:16:18
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <4DSli.6876$rR.5308@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
> <hizark21@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1184360228.257159.194690@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> The future of carbon is when companies develop a 3D weave. This will
>> make composites much less susceptible to delamination.
>
> I don't know where you're getting such ideas but that simply isn't true.
> Delamination will always occur along the glue joint regardless of the
> surface smoothness. Today's carbon fiber is three dimensional - the resin
> thoroughly impregnates the weave.
>
> Delamination doesn't occur because of slipage of one lamination against
> another which "3-D" would inhibit, but because the resin fractures with
> excessive flexure.
Or inadequate wetting out in the first place, which should not happen with
the pre-preg materials which I assume most of the frame builders are
using. I don't know, guys who work in bike shops will: are you seeing many
broken carbon frames? I've yet to see any with my own eyes. Plenty of
broken aluminium and steel ones.
To be fair, very few people are riding carbon mountain bikes round here
yet, and most of the broken frames I see are mountain bikes.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; I'd rather live in sybar-space
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 19:31:49
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 12, 3:15 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 3:36 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > > > > > > or dealer set up.
> > > > > > > ------------------------------
>
> > > > > > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > > > > > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> > > > > > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> > > > > > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> > > > > > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> > > > > > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> > > > > > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > > > > > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > > > > > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > > > > > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > > > > > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > > > > > > pain?"
>
> > > > > > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> > > > > > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> > > > > > better job.
>
> > > > > I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> > > > > work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> > > > > We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> > > > > repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> > > > > "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> > > > > hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> > > > > get.
>
> > > > > > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > > > > > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > > > > > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> > > > > > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> > > > > > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> > > > > > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> > > > > > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> > > > > > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>
> > > > > Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> > > > > dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> > > > > Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> > > > > anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> > > > > pick the right stuff?
>
> > > > > > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > > > > > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > > > > > > dealers web page.
>
> > > > > You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> > > > > test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> > > > > deserve what they get.
>
> > > > > > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> > > > > > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> > > > > > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>
> > > > > Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> > > > > first conversation and last forever
>
> > > > > > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > > > > > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > > > > > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > > > > > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > > > > > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> > > > > > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>
> > > > > agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> > > > > what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> > > > > that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> > > > > which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> > > > > their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> > > > > along with them doing the service on it.
> > > > > Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> > > > > them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> > > > > Trak frame replacement.
>
> > > > > > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > > > > > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > > > > > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> > > > > In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> > > > > to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> > > > > anyway and go through hell doing it.
> > > > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
> > > Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
> > > moronic answers.
> > > Hope you hang around.
> > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
> > provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
> > vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
> > the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
> > side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
> > a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
> > legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
> > responses.
>
> > JC
>
> Your Raleigh will likely be just as good as any of the newer bikes. If
> it fits you ride that one for a while. The problem with older bikes is
> that they have seven speeds in the back and some of the newer bikes
> are up to ten speeds. However, you can have a builder spread the rear
> of your frame and then you can put ten speeds in the back and all the
> new technology.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ha! It's worst than you think...it's only 6 cogs LOL
|
| | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 17:30:32
From: Dave H.
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
<cagliostro@my-deja.com > wrote in message
news:1184293909.040055.78160@m3g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 12, 3:15 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 3:36 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com>
>> > > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>>
>> > > > > > > ------------------------------
>> > > > > > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include
>> > > > > > > shipping, handling
>> > > > > > > or dealer set up.
>> > > > > > > ------------------------------
>>
>> > > > > > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly
>> > > > > > > line. No
>> > > > > > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>>
>> > > > > > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge
>> > > > > > whatever they
>> > > > > > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less
>> > > > > > than the
>> > > > > > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell
>> > > > > > the Trek
>> > > > > > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's
>> > > > > > generally going to
>> > > > > > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>>
>> > > > > > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into
>> > > > > > > bullshit with
>> > > > > > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder.
>> > > > > > > I'm wondering
>> > > > > > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold
>> > > > > > > a poorly
>> > > > > > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get
>> > > > > > > used to the
>> > > > > > > pain?"
>>
>> > > > > > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place
>> > > > > > that people
>> > > > > > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a
>> > > > > > dealer who does a
>> > > > > > better job.
>>
>> > > > > I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the
>> > > > > expert
>> > > > > work and advice of a quality professional shop.
>> > > > > We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's
>> > > > > money
>> > > > > repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
>> > > > > "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft,
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > get.
>>
>> > > > > > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by
>> > > > > > > people with
>> > > > > > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and
>> > > > > > > fit for
>> > > > > > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the
>> > > > > > > necessary tools.
>>
>> > > > > > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without
>> > > > > > much support
>> > > > > > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between
>> > > > > > companies in
>> > > > > > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while
>> > > > > > tends to choose
>> > > > > > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of
>> > > > > > things that
>> > > > > > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past
>> > > > > > because of this.
>>
>> > > > > Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
>> > > > > dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and
>> > > > > construction.
>> > > > > Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems,
>> > > > > etc...and is
>> > > > > anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined
>> > > > > going to
>> > > > > pick the right stuff?
>>
>> > > > > > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as
>> > > > > > > listening to
>> > > > > > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text
>> > > > > > > in the direct
>> > > > > > > dealers web page.
>>
>> > > > > You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion,
>> > > > > fitting,
>> > > > > test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > deserve what they get.
>>
>> > > > > > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on
>> > > > > > such thoughts.
>> > > > > > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to
>> > > > > > assume that all
>> > > > > > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>>
>> > > > > Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts
>> > > > > at the
>> > > > > first conversation and last forever
>>
>> > > > > > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value
>> > > > > > > added" input
>> > > > > > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with
>> > > > > > > a
>> > > > > > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on
>> > > > > > > those
>> > > > > > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that
>> > > > > > > the major
>> > > > > > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>>
>> > > > > > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>>
>> > > > > agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available
>> > > > > locally
>> > > > > that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local
>> > > > > shop,
>> > > > > which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and
>> > > > > with
>> > > > > their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and
>> > > > > prep,
>> > > > > along with them doing the service on it.
>> > > > > Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes
>> > > > > through
>> > > > > them and they really took care of us on several occasions
>> > > > > including a
>> > > > > Trak frame replacement.
>>
>> > > > > > --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> > > > > > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> > > > > > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>
>> > > > > In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better
>> > > > > IMO
>> > > > > to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to
>> > > > > pay
>> > > > > anyway and go through hell doing it.
>> > > > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > > Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.-
>> > > > Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > > I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
>> > > Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
>> > > moronic answers.
>> > > Hope you hang around.
>> > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
>> > provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
>> > vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
>> > the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
>> > side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
>> > a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
>> > legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
>> > responses.
>>
>> > JC
>>
>> Your Raleigh will likely be just as good as any of the newer bikes. If
>> it fits you ride that one for a while. The problem with older bikes is
>> that they have seven speeds in the back and some of the newer bikes
>> are up to ten speeds. However, you can have a builder spread the rear
>> of your frame and then you can put ten speeds in the back and all the
>> new technology.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ha! It's worst than you think...it's only 6 cogs LOL
Quality garage sale, thrift shop, or hand-me-down bikes are the best value
in cycling for those that like to do their own wrenching.
Fresh brake pads will make a big difference. Think about some fresh bearings
and grease in the hubs/cranks/headset. If your legs could use a bailout gear
for the hills, get a wider ranging freewheel (up to 32t may be ok with 42/52
chainrings and a short cage derailleur). A tight "racing" freewheel kept me
from enjoying the hobby years ago.
Just took an older racing bike with Shimano 600 friction shifters from 6 to
7 speeds with a $10 freewheel, $4 of new KMC chain, and respacing /
redishing the rear wheel. Put Shimano Sora 7 speed STI shifters on another
of these old steel bikes, plus fat 28c tires, and the bike is a comfortable
cruiser through 50 mile country road rides.
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 16:22:33
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 12, 6:15 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
>
> Your Raleigh will likely be just as good as any of the newer bikes. If
> it fits you ride that one for a while. The problem with older bikes is
> that they have seven speeds in the back and some of the newer bikes
> are up to ten speeds. However, you can have a builder spread the rear
> of your frame and then you can put ten speeds in the back and all the
> new technology.
I believe he's talking about spreading your _bicycle_ frame, although
he could be speaking euphemistically about the cost of the builder's
work. =:O
R
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 15:15:55
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 3:36 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > > > > > or dealer set up.
> > > > > > ------------------------------
>
> > > > > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > > > > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> > > > > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> > > > > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> > > > > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> > > > > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> > > > > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > > > > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > > > > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > > > > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > > > > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > > > > > pain?"
>
> > > > > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> > > > > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> > > > > better job.
>
> > > > I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> > > > work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> > > > We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> > > > repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> > > > "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> > > > hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> > > > get.
>
> > > > > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > > > > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > > > > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> > > > > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> > > > > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> > > > > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> > > > > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> > > > > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>
> > > > Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> > > > dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> > > > Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> > > > anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> > > > pick the right stuff?
>
> > > > > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > > > > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > > > > > dealers web page.
>
> > > > You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> > > > test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> > > > deserve what they get.
>
> > > > > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> > > > > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> > > > > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>
> > > > Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> > > > first conversation and last forever
>
> > > > > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > > > > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > > > > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > > > > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > > > > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> > > > > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>
> > > > agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> > > > what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> > > > that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> > > > which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> > > > their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> > > > along with them doing the service on it.
> > > > Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> > > > them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> > > > Trak frame replacement.
>
> > > > > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > > > > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > > > > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> > > > In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> > > > to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> > > > anyway and go through hell doing it.
> > > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
> > Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
> > moronic answers.
> > Hope you hang around.
> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
> provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
> vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
> the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
> side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
> a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
> legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
> responses.
>
> JC
Your Raleigh will likely be just as good as any of the newer bikes. If
it fits you ride that one for a while. The problem with older bikes is
that they have seven speeds in the back and some of the newer bikes
are up to ten speeds. However, you can have a builder spread the rear
of your frame and then you can put ten speeds in the back and all the
new technology.
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 15:10:33
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 1:47 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> >> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
> >> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>
> > Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
> > comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
> > 1000?
>
> Please look again-http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
> Bottom of their chart says the following-
> Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000
>
> If you check out TREK's website athttp://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
> MRSP listed of $709.99.
>
> >> So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
> >> Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in
> >> fact
> >> have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't
> >> need
> >> to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.
>
> > "100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
> > Trek dealer. What else can he say?
>
> Baloney. I've made my points, and I have the facts on my side. You may
> choose to ignore them if you wish, but it doesn't take much intelligence to
> see what's going on here. Bikesdirect.com dramatically inflates their
> claimed value for the bikes by giving bogus retail equivalents. Do you
> actually claim otherwise?
>
>
>
> > I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
> > users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
> > should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
> > mechanic and then go ride.
>
> Maybe, maybe not (as far as being a good deal). I already pointed out why.
>
> A good bike shop is good not just because they assembled the bike properly
> for the customer. If that's all it takes in your neck of the woods, I feel
> bad for those in your area. A good bike shop is there to make sure the bike
> fits properly, not just initially, but down the road (what looks good on
> paper and during an initial test ride might not feel quite right after the
> first 30 miler or whatever). A good bike shop performs a 30-day check that
> involves more than wiping down the frame. It's an opportunity to make sure
> the bike and user are getting along as they should, a chance to talk with
> the customer about basic care of their bike and any evidence seen that it
> might be a good idea to make some changes. A good bike shop looks forward to
> customers bringing in a bike that isn't quite right somehow, because they
> want to make sure there's nothing keeping the customer from wanting to ride
> that bike, every chance they get. A good bike shop's worst nightmare is a
> customer bringing in a bike that has virtually no miles on it after a couple
> of years, because something wasn't quite right (could be fit, could be
> mechanical, whatever) and the customer didn't realize that the shop would go
> out of their way to take care of whatever it was, and it could very well be
> something that wouldn't cost anything. And a good bike shop deals with
> companies that solidly stand behind their product.
>
> Those are things that can't be done mail order. Not everybody has need for
> such services, and for those that don't, saving a few $$$ on a mail-order
> bike might make sense.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
OK, calm down children. There is good stuff on both sides. If you want
full service, a local bike shop like Chain Reaction's is
indispensable. Mike will sell bikes that will cost a little more, but
will guarantee them, service them and offer support for the owner.
OTOH, if, as MIke says, you can work on your bike and you have full
confidence in your ability and in what you are getting, bikesdirect,
randall scott and others are great sources for bargains. There is room
for both.
I will most certainly consider one of the bikesdirect bikes. I like
the botteccias on ebay with alum frames for $695 and would also
consider one of those if needing a bike. I would also consider leader
frames and all the other chinese alum frames with 105 components, etc.
LBSs wouldn't touch those prices.
However, if a friend of mine new to the sport asked me what he she
should get, I would certainly send him/her to the LBS.
Andres
|
| | |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 19:23:33
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:10:33 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
>I will most certainly consider one of the bikesdirect bikes. I like
>the botteccias on ebay with alum frames for $695 and would also
>consider one of those if needing a bike. I would also consider leader
>frames and all the other chinese alum frames with 105 components, etc.
>LBSs wouldn't touch those prices.
>
>However, if a friend of mine new to the sport asked me what he she
>should get, I would certainly send him/her to the LBS.
Well said.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 02:14:41
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 12, 12:07 am, Simon Brooke <s...@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
> in message <1184189765.242093.259...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
> caglios...@my-deja.com (' caglios...@my-deja.com') wrote:
> > I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
> > provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
> > vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
> > the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
> > side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
> > a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
> > legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
> > responses.
>
> There's not a lot wrong with a 531 frame, and, provided it was built for
> 700C and not 27" wheels, it can be cold set to fit modern components.
> Instead of going out and buying a new bike, why not but a decent new
> groupset and a pair of wheels?
>
> --
> s...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
>
> ;; Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
Yep..actually it has on 700c x 25 Mavic wheels
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:26:57
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
The Royal Winsodor seems like a nice bike but I am not a fan of
aluminum bikes espcially the ultra lightweight aluminum frames.
On Jul 10, 1:30 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
> for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:19:52
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 9:33 pm, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > There are NO dumb questions, ...
>
> Check this one:
>
> Why do some people say there are no dumb questions?
Because I'm not that cynical, though it's close, and give the benefit
of the doubt to anyone asking that they are actually trying to learn
something new or clarify their understanding of something.
I'm incredibly impatient with people I expect to know things I
consider basic knowledge, but that's based on my personal expectations
based on personal opinion of them, and it causes me lots of headaches.
If someone I don't know is asking a question, I have no expectations
of them and am happy to try and point them to somewhere they can gain
info.
Everyone has things they know well but those don't always match so
what might be a "dumb" question to you would be very likely offset by
you asking them a "dumb" question in their area of expertise.
Comes down to tolerance.
One of my favorite sayings when I was a lot younger was "No sympathy
for stupidity!", but as I learned more I realized just how much more
there is that I'm clueless about. I still stand by it in cases of real
stupidity, but ignorance isn't stupidity, and someone asking questions
to reduce their ignorance is something to be applauded.
It's easy to be a "genius" when you are ignorant and refuse to
consider any new learning.
Rant off
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 18:33:22
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> There are NO dumb questions, ...
Check this one:
Why do some people say there are no dumb questions?
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 18:24:31
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Motobecane is a only a licensed brand like so many other bike
companies. The name is licensed by Bicycle Discovery which has shops
in LA and San Diego. I am not certain who owns the trademark. Cycle
Europe owns the trademark in all likelyhood.
On Jul 10, 7:11 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jul 10, 6:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> > > Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> > > to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> > > has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> > > versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
> > > for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
>
> > You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
> > not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
> > which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
> > "recommendation.") They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
> > price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
> > much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
> > getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
> > tougher.
>
> > Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
> > compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>
> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
> 1000?
>
> >. Please, someone, find me a dealer
> > selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
> > 30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
> > bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
> > happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
>
> > So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
> > Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
> > have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
> > to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.
>
> "100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
> Trek dealer. What else can he say?
>
> I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
> users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
> should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
> mechanic and then go ride.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:36:05
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > > > > or dealer set up.
> > > > > ------------------------------
>
> > > > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > > > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> > > > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> > > > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> > > > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> > > > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> > > > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > > > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > > > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > > > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > > > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > > > > pain?"
>
> > > > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> > > > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> > > > better job.
>
> > > I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> > > work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> > > We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> > > repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> > > "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> > > hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> > > get.
>
> > > > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > > > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > > > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> > > > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> > > > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> > > > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> > > > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> > > > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>
> > > Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> > > dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> > > Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> > > anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> > > pick the right stuff?
>
> > > > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > > > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > > > > dealers web page.
>
> > > You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> > > test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> > > deserve what they get.
>
> > > > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> > > > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> > > > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>
> > > Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> > > first conversation and last forever
>
> > > > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > > > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > > > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > > > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > > > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> > > > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>
> > > agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> > > what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> > > that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> > > which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> > > their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> > > along with them doing the service on it.
> > > Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> > > them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> > > Trak frame replacement.
>
> > > > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > > > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > > > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> > > In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> > > to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> > > anyway and go through hell doing it.
> > > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
> Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
> moronic answers.
> Hope you hang around.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
responses.
JC
|
| | |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 08:07:21
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <1184189765.242093.259810@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com >,
cagliostro@my-deja.com (' cagliostro@my-deja.com') wrote:
> I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
> provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
> vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
> the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
> side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
> a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
> legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
> responses.
There's not a lot wrong with a 531 frame, and, provided it was built for
700C and not 27" wheels, it can be cold set to fit modern components.
Instead of going out and buying a new bike, why not but a decent new
groupset and a pair of wheels?
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
|
| | |
Date: 12 Jul 2007 00:04:21
From: MkTm
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
cagliostro@my-deja.com wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
>>>>>> or dealer set up.
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
>>>>>> relation to the real price at a dealership.
>>>>> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
>>>>> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
>>>>> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
>>>>> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
>>>>> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>>>>>> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
>>>>>> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
>>>>>> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
>>>>>> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
>>>>>> pain?"
>>>>> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
>>>>> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
>>>>> better job.
>>>> I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
>>>> work and advice of a quality professional shop.
>>>> We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
>>>> repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
>>>> "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
>>>> hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
>>>> get.
>>>>>> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
>>>>>> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
>>>>>> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>>>>> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
>>>>> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
>>>>> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
>>>>> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
>>>>> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>>>> Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
>>>> dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
>>>> Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
>>>> anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
>>>> pick the right stuff?
>>>>>> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
>>>>>> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
>>>>>> dealers web page.
>>>> You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
>>>> test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
>>>> deserve what they get.
>>>>> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
>>>>> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
>>>>> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>>>> Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
>>>> first conversation and last forever
>>>>>> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
>>>>>> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
>>>>>> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
>>>>>> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
>>>>>> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>>>>> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>>>> agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
>>>> what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
>>>> that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
>>>> which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
>>>> their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
>>>> along with them doing the service on it.
>>>> Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
>>>> them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
>>>> Trak frame replacement.
>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>>>>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>>> In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
>>>> to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
>>>> anyway and go through hell doing it.
>>>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
>> Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
>> moronic answers.
>> Hope you hang around.
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
> provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
> vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
> the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
> side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
> a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
> legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
> responses.
>
> JC
>
I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all
Jesus Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet
dealership minds is making money.
OK. To some of the particulars. I've covered the Jesus Christ with a
wrench and caliper aspect. Quality, dependability, honesty are often
claimed but rarely demonstrated. I'll give that each of you that claims
halos around your hubs is as you claim to be. But in the real world
there are dealers that are less than sacrosanct. There are people that
at the end of a season, sitting with a dozen of last year's models, will
do what they can to get those bikes out the door.
That brings me to the be all and end all of selling bikes - fit. Whether
it's the local dealer saying that Walmart et al suck because that don't
fit you properly or it's the high end custom frame builder with some one
off high tech contraption that requires multiple sessions for fitting,
fit, finally, is a crap shoot.
I've been riding a bike since I was about 5. That's more than 50 years.
I don't know what's a good fit for me. You might say, "That's why you
need me!" but you don't know any better. You don't know that it's my
back that hurts the most with my hips being second, knees third, and so
on. About ten years ago I had a problem with my feet. My foot doctor,
when fitting me for orthotics told me that one of my legs was half an
inch longer than the other. Do you check for that? Do manufacturers have
any method of compensation for that fit problem?
I bought my current bike three years ago when I began to drop (chain
skip) whenever I put any real pressure on the pedals. I was breaking
teeth off the sprockets doing that. When the problem became too much I
brought the bike in to the LBS. The mechanic said he had never seen a
chain stretched that much. He replaced the chain and the rear wheel with
used parts but the work involved would take a week or more, with the
back log of work he had. With that in mind I decided to look at the new
models. My prior bike was a Royce Union. One that I've seen described as
probably made with gas pipe tubing.
I test rode a few models in a price range ($500-$800) I thought
reasonable for my budget and the recreational but heavy exercise level
use I was putting in (about 8-9k miles a year at that point). You know
what you can tell in a short test ride? SFA. I got a compact frame
aluminum bike that was fitted for me based on what I showed the dealer
was my riding style and position. He could see my size and build. He
watched how I rode my old bike and how I rode the new one.
The first time I did my usual 50+ mile ride my wrists were killing me
and my back ached. Every bump was a jab in my lower back. I increased
the size of the tires till I could reproduce something of the softer
ride of the old steel bike with touring like dimensions. From the
original 25c I went to 35c (on 700). My wrists don't ache that much
anymore but my hands get numb while riding and I have to continually
change grip position and shake out my wrists to get feeling back. For
all the high tech crap including the gel based wrap, the old foam grips
seemed to do a better job of absorbing road vibration. My back is a
constant aching concern but I had a back problem before so I can't say
that the new bike is the problem. I'm also getting older.
When I'm doing an errand that requires locking and leaving the bike I
take the old one. The difference is night and day. The comfort
improvement is distinctly noticeable. The new bike is faster in terms of
top speed, probably due to the gearing (24 speed vs 12 speed) but
ironically my average speeds dropped with the new bike. I figure it was
just because I had gotten lazy with the far easier indexed shifting
compared to friction. I'd stay in the tougher gear on the old bike and
work harder.
I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.
Other points. I live in a big city. There are many dealers but that also
means there are many cons to avoid. I originally wanted a Giant. I don't
remember why. I went into the nearest Giant dealership and even though I
was the only person in the shop, I couldn't get the salesperson to come
out to talk to me. Scratch Giant. I'm sure there are areas that don't
have nearby dealerships. Mail order isn't that much different than
dealer purchase from a shop 20 to 50 miles away.
In the real world where Jesus doesn't franchise out disciples to bike
dealerships, having some knowledge of the needs and requirements of
riding and maintaining a bicycle can easily make the discount on mail
order from less than major makers (major makers don't allow it) worth it.
If I were looking to buy a bike, with the bike knowledge level I now
have, mail order is probably the direction I'd go in. The discount seems
more than worth the middle man warranty aspects, fit expertise and Jesus
claims.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 17:56:42
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
> it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
> fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
> after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
> expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.
If proper fit was a static, one-time thing, there'd be some relevance to
what you say. But it's not, or at least, it shouldn't be. Getting a proper
fit doesn't require that one rides a ton of different bikes; anybody who
knows what they're doing understands there's going to be some ability to
overlap fit between sizes (longer top tube with shorter stem and
vice-versa). But the real issue is that you have to listen to the customer.
You need to set them up and observe them ride. You need to, if possible, set
them up on a test course that includes a hill or two. But most important is
that you have to realize that what feels comfortable on a relatively-short
test ride might not be what's comfortable on their first 30 miler or century
or whatever, and respond accordingly. You need to not feel threatened by a
customer telling you that something's not quite right, but rather look at it
as an opportunity to help them get the most out of cycling.
And this isn't done out of altruism. I'm as cynical as the next guy, maybe
more so. A shop takes care of their customers in this fashion because they
know it's good for business. Bikes that are tripped over in the garage
aren't beneficial to the bottom line nearly as much as bikes that people
feel like they have a desperate urge to go out and ride, every time they see
it. Those people infect others with the cycling disease. Those people wear
out parts and need to buy new ones. Those people buy shoes & jackets &
shorts & gloves & all manner of other things, because they feel good about
cycling.
> I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all Jesus
> Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet dealership
> minds is making money.
If you have an axe to grind about everybody who's in business, fine, but
I'll bet there are more people in the cycling industry who are doing it for
reasons other than money than you'll find in most other businesses. We're
stupid that way. We love getting people out on bikes, and we love even more
making sure they keep on cycling. Maybe not all of us, but quite a few.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"MkTm" <MkTmE@NOSPAM.invalid > wrote in message
news:9eeli.7764$V35.1475@trndny03...
> cagliostro@my-deja.com wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 2:21 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping,
>>>>>>> handling
>>>>>>> or dealer set up.
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line.
>>>>>>> No
>>>>>>> relation to the real price at a dealership.
>>>>>> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge
>>>>>> whatever they
>>>>>> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the
>>>>>> Trek
>>>>>> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally
>>>>>> going to
>>>>>> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>>>>>>> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm
>>>>>>> wondering
>>>>>>> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a
>>>>>>> poorly
>>>>>>> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> pain?"
>>>>>> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who
>>>>>> does a
>>>>>> better job.
>>>>> I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
>>>>> work and advice of a quality professional shop.
>>>>> We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
>>>>> repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
>>>>> "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
>>>>> hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
>>>>> get.
>>>>>>> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
>>>>>>> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary
>>>>>>> tools.
>>>>>> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much
>>>>>> support
>>>>>> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between
>>>>>> companies in
>>>>>> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to
>>>>>> choose
>>>>>> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of
>>>>>> things that
>>>>>> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of
>>>>>> this.
>>>>> Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
>>>>> dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
>>>>> Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
>>>>> anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
>>>>> pick the right stuff?
>>>>>>> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as
>>>>>>> listening to
>>>>>>> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the
>>>>>>> direct
>>>>>>> dealers web page.
>>>>> You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
>>>>> test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
>>>>> deserve what they get.
>>>>>> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such
>>>>>> thoughts.
>>>>>> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume
>>>>>> that all
>>>>>> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>>>>> Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
>>>>> first conversation and last forever
>>>>>>> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added"
>>>>>>> input
>>>>>>> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
>>>>>>> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
>>>>>>> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the
>>>>>>> major
>>>>>>> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>>>>>> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>>>>> agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
>>>>> what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
>>>>> that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
>>>>> which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
>>>>> their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
>>>>> along with them doing the service on it.
>>>>> Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
>>>>> them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
>>>>> Trak frame replacement.
>>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>>>>>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>>>> In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
>>>>> to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
>>>>> anyway and go through hell doing it.
>>>>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide
>>>> quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
>>> Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
>>> moronic answers.
>>> Hope you hang around.
>>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I want to thank all who responded to my question. You've certainly
>> provided some food for thought. Actually, I recently inherited a
>> vintage (early '80's) Raleigh 12 spd with Reynolds 531 frame tubes and
>> the old pre-Ultegra Shimano 600 group (friction down-tube shifters /
>> side pull brakes). Not the lightest, fastest or most modern steed, but
>> a very sweet handling steel bike...I think I'll just get my cycling
>> legs back on it and take my time looking. Again, thanks for your
>> responses.
>>
>> JC
>>
> I really have to laugh at some of the responses. I know. You're all Jesus
> Christ with hex wrenches. The last thing on any of your sweet dealership
> minds is making money.
>
> OK. To some of the particulars. I've covered the Jesus Christ with a
> wrench and caliper aspect. Quality, dependability, honesty are often
> claimed but rarely demonstrated. I'll give that each of you that claims
> halos around your hubs is as you claim to be. But in the real world there
> are dealers that are less than sacrosanct. There are people that at the
> end of a season, sitting with a dozen of last year's models, will do what
> they can to get those bikes out the door.
>
> That brings me to the be all and end all of selling bikes - fit. Whether
> it's the local dealer saying that Walmart et al suck because that don't
> fit you properly or it's the high end custom frame builder with some one
> off high tech contraption that requires multiple sessions for fitting,
> fit, finally, is a crap shoot.
>
> I've been riding a bike since I was about 5. That's more than 50 years. I
> don't know what's a good fit for me. You might say, "That's why you need
> me!" but you don't know any better. You don't know that it's my back that
> hurts the most with my hips being second, knees third, and so on. About
> ten years ago I had a problem with my feet. My foot doctor, when fitting
> me for orthotics told me that one of my legs was half an inch longer than
> the other. Do you check for that? Do manufacturers have any method of
> compensation for that fit problem?
>
> I bought my current bike three years ago when I began to drop (chain skip)
> whenever I put any real pressure on the pedals. I was breaking teeth off
> the sprockets doing that. When the problem became too much I brought the
> bike in to the LBS. The mechanic said he had never seen a chain stretched
> that much. He replaced the chain and the rear wheel with used parts but
> the work involved would take a week or more, with the back log of work he
> had. With that in mind I decided to look at the new models. My prior bike
> was a Royce Union. One that I've seen described as probably made with gas
> pipe tubing.
>
> I test rode a few models in a price range ($500-$800) I thought reasonable
> for my budget and the recreational but heavy exercise level use I was
> putting in (about 8-9k miles a year at that point). You know what you can
> tell in a short test ride? SFA. I got a compact frame aluminum bike that
> was fitted for me based on what I showed the dealer was my riding style
> and position. He could see my size and build. He watched how I rode my old
> bike and how I rode the new one.
>
> The first time I did my usual 50+ mile ride my wrists were killing me and
> my back ached. Every bump was a jab in my lower back. I increased the size
> of the tires till I could reproduce something of the softer ride of the
> old steel bike with touring like dimensions. From the original 25c I went
> to 35c (on 700). My wrists don't ache that much anymore but my hands get
> numb while riding and I have to continually change grip position and shake
> out my wrists to get feeling back. For all the high tech crap including
> the gel based wrap, the old foam grips seemed to do a better job of
> absorbing road vibration. My back is a constant aching concern but I had a
> back problem before so I can't say that the new bike is the problem. I'm
> also getting older.
>
> When I'm doing an errand that requires locking and leaving the bike I take
> the old one. The difference is night and day. The comfort improvement is
> distinctly noticeable. The new bike is faster in terms of top speed,
> probably due to the gearing (24 speed vs 12 speed) but ironically my
> average speeds dropped with the new bike. I figure it was just because I
> had gotten lazy with the far easier indexed shifting compared to friction.
> I'd stay in the tougher gear on the old bike and work harder.
>
> I'm rambling on with other aspects but the key regarding "fit" is that
> it's a dealer's biggest selling line and unless the dealer is willing to
> fit you with half a dozen different new bikes till you find the best one
> after repeated 50+ mile rides, fit isn't the exact science based on
> expertise that's claimed. It's more a con then a reality.
>
> Other points. I live in a big city. There are many dealers but that also
> means there are many cons to avoid. I originally wanted a Giant. I don't
> remember why. I went into the nearest Giant dealership and even though I
> was the only person in the shop, I couldn't get the salesperson to come
> out to talk to me. Scratch Giant. I'm sure there are areas that don't have
> nearby dealerships. Mail order isn't that much different than dealer
> purchase from a shop 20 to 50 miles away.
>
> In the real world where Jesus doesn't franchise out disciples to bike
> dealerships, having some knowledge of the needs and requirements of riding
> and maintaining a bicycle can easily make the discount on mail order from
> less than major makers (major makers don't allow it) worth it.
>
> If I were looking to buy a bike, with the bike knowledge level I now have,
> mail order is probably the direction I'd go in. The discount seems more
> than worth the middle man warranty aspects, fit expertise and Jesus
> claims.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:21:40
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 5:17 pm, caglios...@my-deja.com wrote:
> On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > > > or dealer set up.
> > > > ------------------------------
>
> > > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> > > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> > > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> > > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> > > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> > > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > > > pain?"
>
> > > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> > > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> > > better job.
>
> > I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> > work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> > We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> > repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> > "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> > hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> > get.
>
> > > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> > > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> > > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> > > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> > > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> > > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>
> > Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> > dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> > Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> > anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> > pick the right stuff?
>
> > > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > > > dealers web page.
>
> > You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> > test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> > deserve what they get.
>
> > > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> > > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> > > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>
> > Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> > first conversation and last forever
>
> > > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> > > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>
> > agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> > what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> > that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> > which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> > their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> > along with them doing the service on it.
> > Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> > them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> > Trak frame replacement.
>
> > > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> > In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> > to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> > anyway and go through hell doing it.
> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm glad you had the sense to ask, and glad that someone as expert as
Mike, who really cares, responded. There are NO dumb questions, just
moronic answers.
Hope you hang around.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:17:49
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 2:09 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > > or dealer set up.
> > > ------------------------------
>
> > > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> > That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> > wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> > MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> > 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> > be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > > pain?"
>
> > It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> > should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> > better job.
>
> I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
> work and advice of a quality professional shop.
> We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
> repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
> "Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
> hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
> get.
>
>
>
> > > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> > I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> > if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> > that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> > its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> > shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
>
> Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
> dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
> Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
> anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
> pick the right stuff?
>
>
>
> > > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > > dealers web page.
>
> You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
> test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
> deserve what they get.
>
>
>
> > I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> > Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> > written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
>
> Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
> first conversation and last forever
>
>
>
> > > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> > And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
>
> agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
> what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
> that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
> which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
> their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
> along with them doing the service on it.
> Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
> them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
> Trak frame replacement.
>
>
>
> > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
> to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
> anyway and go through hell doing it.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeeeeesss....sorry I asked...maybe I'll just get a used Huffy.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 14:09:24
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 11, 4:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> > ------------------------------
> > *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> > or dealer set up.
> > ------------------------------
>
> > That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> > relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
> wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
> MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
> 1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
> be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
>
> > As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> > people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> > what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> > sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> > pain?"
>
> It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
> should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
> better job.
I can't even believe that people are discounting/trashing the expert
work and advice of a quality professional shop.
We, my partner and I, spend a lot of time and other people's money
repairing the work they had done by "Discount" carpenters and
"Handymen". If they think experience, dedication to the craft, and
hard earned expertise is worth nothing then they deserve what they
get.
>
> > Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> > some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> > themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
> if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
> that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
> its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
> shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
Mike I'll add in another. Are there diagrams with all the frame
dimension, spec sheets and details on the materials and construction.
Is thwere also the ability to custom order cranks, stems, etc...and is
anyone but an experienced rider who is mechanically inclined going to
pick the right stuff?
>
> > Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> > salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> > dealers web page.
You're right on that. The value added by hands on discussion, fitting,
test ride, etc... should be obvious, but morons don't value that and
deserve what they get.
>
> I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
> Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
> written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
Bullshit walks, talks and rapes you. Quality, and value starts at the
first conversation and last forever
>
> > If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> > and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> > manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> > charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> > bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
>
> And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
agreed Mike if people want to just wing it then they are gambling with
what they get. I actually ordered a bike that wasn't available locally
that I really wanted. I did it in conjunction with our local shop,
which I mostly stopped shopping at when the best people left, and with
their advice and brought the bike to them to set-up, check, and prep,
along with them doing the service on it.
Smart on their part because we bought several other bikes through
them and they really took care of us on several occasions including a
Trak frame replacement.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
In my experience you always end up paying in the end. It's better IMO
to pay up front and be happy with the product and service than to pay
anyway and go through hell doing it.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 04:34:14
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 10, 10:39 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kinesis.
> They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
> brands.
That's interesting, and relevant. All the bikesdirect.com bikes are
built by Kinesis.
Bikesdirect.com is also the mail-order outlet for Cycle Spectrum, a
chain that operates in Florida, Texas, and Arizona. If you happen to
live in one of those places, 1) you can bring your bikesdirect.com
bike into a Cycle Spectrum store for warranty service, and 2) my
sympathies.
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 19:11:50
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 10, 6:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> > Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> > to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> > has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> > versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
> > for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
>
> You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
> not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
> which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
> "recommendation.") They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
> price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
> much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
> getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
> tougher.
>
> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
1000?
>. Please, someone, find me a dealer
> selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
> 30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
> bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
> happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
>
> So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
> Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
> have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
> to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.
>
"100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
Trek dealer. What else can he say?
I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
mechanic and then go ride.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 07:47:25
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
>> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>
> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
> 1000?
Please look again-
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
Bottom of their chart says the following-
Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000
If you check out TREK's website at
http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
MRSP listed of $709.99.
>> So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
>> Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in
>> fact
>> have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't
>> need
>> to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.
>>
>
> "100% bogus" says the 100% interested, biased party in the person of a
> Trek dealer. What else can he say?
Baloney. I've made my points, and I have the facts on my side. You may
choose to ignore them if you wish, but it doesn't take much intelligence to
see what's going on here. Bikesdirect.com dramatically inflates their
claimed value for the bikes by giving bogus retail equivalents. Do you
actually claim otherwise?
>
> I'll say what he can't: the Motobecane Record at $499 delivered to the
> users door (no sales tax, no shipping, etc.) is a good deal. Buyers
> should be prepared to spend $50-75 for a decent set up by a competent
> mechanic and then go ride.
Maybe, maybe not (as far as being a good deal). I already pointed out why.
A good bike shop is good not just because they assembled the bike properly
for the customer. If that's all it takes in your neck of the woods, I feel
bad for those in your area. A good bike shop is there to make sure the bike
fits properly, not just initially, but down the road (what looks good on
paper and during an initial test ride might not feel quite right after the
first 30 miler or whatever). A good bike shop performs a 30-day check that
involves more than wiping down the frame. It's an opportunity to make sure
the bike and user are getting along as they should, a chance to talk with
the customer about basic care of their bike and any evidence seen that it
might be a good idea to make some changes. A good bike shop looks forward to
customers bringing in a bike that isn't quite right somehow, because they
want to make sure there's nothing keeping the customer from wanting to ride
that bike, every chance they get. A good bike shop's worst nightmare is a
customer bringing in a bike that has virtually no miles on it after a couple
of years, because something wasn't quite right (could be fit, could be
mechanical, whatever) and the customer didn't realize that the shop would go
out of their way to take care of whatever it was, and it could very well be
something that wouldn't cost anything. And a good bike shop deals with
companies that solidly stand behind their product.
Those are things that can't be done mail order. Not everybody has need for
such services, and for those that don't, saving a few $$$ on a mail-order
bike might make sense.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 06:52:53
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:47:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
>>> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
>>> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>>
>> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
>> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
>> 1000?
>
>Please look again-
>http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
>Bottom of their chart says the following-
>Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000
>
>If you check out TREK's website at
>http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
>MRSP listed of $709.99.
Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.
Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
and your machine available online?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 15:05:02
From: MkTm
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:47:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
>>>> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>>> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
>>> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
>>> 1000?
>> Please look again-
>> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
>> Bottom of their chart says the following-
>> Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000
>>
>> If you check out TREK's website at
>> http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see an
>> MRSP listed of $709.99.
>
> Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.
>
> Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
> and your machine available online?
Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
------------------------------
*The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping,
handling or dealer set up.
------------------------------
That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
relation to the real price at a dealership.
As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm
wondering what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold
a poorly sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used
to the pain?"
Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening
to salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the
direct dealers web page.
If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added"
input and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 20:50:08
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> ------------------------------
> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> or dealer set up.
> ------------------------------
>
> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> relation to the real price at a dealership.
That's both correct and misleading. Dealers are free to charge whatever they
wish for a bike, but unlike cars, bikes are often sold for less than the
MSRP, not more. For example, we're a full-service shop and sell the Trek
1000 for $679.99. With no asterisk attached. And that's generally going to
be what you'll find in most competitive markets.
> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> pain?"
It would be no good at all. You're describing a type of place that people
should be avoiding, and the market forces *should* favor a dealer who does a
better job.
> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
I agree, with one main caveat. You're still going to be without much support
if there are legit warranty issues. Huge differences between companies in
that area, and a better shop that's been around for a while tends to choose
its lines based at least partly upon how well they take care of things that
shouldn't have happened. We've dropped lines in the past because of this.
> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> dealers web page.
I would hope that context & history would hold some sway on such thoughts.
Otherwise we're on a level playing field in which one is to assume that all
written and spoken word is worthless? That's a very sad world.
> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
And again, as I said previously, I don't disagree with that.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"MkTm" <MkTmE@NOSPAM.invalid > wrote in message
news:yk6li.13734$t05.2594@trndny09...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:47:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
>> <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they
>>>>> claim,
>>>>> compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999
>>>> Actually, the claim is that the "list price" is $999, and suggests
>>>> comparing it to the Trek 1000 "at $800". What is the MSRP of the Trek
>>>> 1000?
>>> Please look again-
>>> http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/motobecane_record.htm
>>> Bottom of their chart says the following-
>>> Our low price is $499.95 Compare at $800 to $999 for Trek 1000
>>>
>>> If you check out TREK's website at
>>> http://www2.trekbikes.com/bikes/bike.php?bikeid=1413000&f=3, you'll see
>>> an MRSP listed of $709.99.
>>
>> Hahaha. Way to go Ozark, you're on the ball again.
>>
>> Hey, I'm curious about your own riding and bike -- any pictures of you
>> and your machine available online?
>
> Actually there's an asterisk next to the $709.99 pricing.
>
> ------------------------------
> *The stated price is in US dollars and does not include shipping, handling
> or dealer set up.
> ------------------------------
>
> That's like the price of a new car as it leaves the assembly line. No
> relation to the real price at a dealership.
>
> As with so many of these threads there's a breakdown into bullshit with
> people trying to obscure the situation or just shout louder. I'm wondering
> what good a 30-day checkup is on fit if a buyer has been sold a poorly
> sized bike. Seat adjustment? Lengthened stem? "You'll get used to the
> pain?"
>
> Obviously buying direct over the web should only be done by people with
> some experience with bikes, able to determine their size and fit for
> themselves as well as doing the necessary setup with the necessary tools.
>
> Reading dealer comments on the value they add is the same as listening to
> salespeople do their thing - and the same goes for the text in the direct
> dealers web page.
>
> If you feel you have the ability to replace a dealer's "value added" input
> and don't find the dealer's value added warranty claims with a
> manufacturer of much actual value and simply want to save on those
> charges, web direct bikes seem a reasonable alternative that the major
> bike manufacturers don't seem to offer.
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 23:31:15
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
> for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
You won't find any "official" retail prices for those brands because they're
not distributed beyond bikesdirect.com. (Check out their "Dealer Locater"
which lists no dealers but requests that you email them for their
"recommendation.") They can strain credibility with their inflated "retail"
price claims all they want, but the facts are that their bikes are not that
much less expensive than what you'd get locally, and obviously any shot at
getting something taken care of as a warranty is going to be a whole lot
tougher.
Just for kicks I checked out their "Motobecane Record" which, they claim,
compares to a TREK 1000 at $800-$999. Please, someone, find me a dealer
selling one for We sell them for $679, include fitting services, assembly,
30-day check, and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the
bike (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
So please, ignore their claims about what they think the bike is worth.
Those claims are 100% bogus, in every instance I checked. They may in fact
have some good deals for those who can work on their own bikes, don't need
to be fitted and aren't concerned about warranty issues.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
|
| | |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 18:42:32
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:7FUki.9635$Rw1.1296@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
> ...and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the bike
> (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have happened,
> which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
>
You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 19:49:15
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 14, 4:24 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in messagenews:2o4h93dsu3k6s185lmqnj4lpttar7h9mdq@4ax.com...
>
> > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
> > <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
> >>other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
> >>sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
> >>steel frame has snapped in half.
>
> > FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
> > half while someone is riding.
>
> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike would
> bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
This the reason why I refuse to buy a composite frame that only has a
3 or 5 year warranty. I used to work in bike shop and I think it's
ridiculous that a person should pay more and get a shorter warranty.
This is especially true when you consider how much these companies are
charging for the frames. I like Treks policy of a $300 replacement fee
if you crash the bike. I was considering a Treck OCLV, but they don't
come in my size.
> If you're supported by a sponsor who is buying your bikes it's no big deal,
> but if my Colnago C40 breaks (unlikely) I have to cough up the $7K+ myself.
>
> Mind you, I've seen steel bikes break but all of them were ridden back home.
> My AL frame and the carbon frames I've seen broken were not ridable.
|
| | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 02:04:52
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike would
>> bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
>
> This the reason why I refuse to buy a composite frame that only has a
> 3 or 5 year warranty. I used to work in bike shop and I think it's
> ridiculous that a person should pay more and get a shorter warranty.
> This is especially true when you consider how much these companies are
> charging for the frames. I like Treks policy of a $300 replacement fee
> if you crash the bike. I was considering a Treck OCLV, but they don't
> come in my size.
#1: Carbon frames don't "snap in half" when they hit something, unless that
something is, well, really something. I have seen high-quality carbon frames
hold up in collisions that would have destroyed a steel frame. The reason
for this is ridiculously obvious. It's not simply that carbon is a better
material (as I've said before, you can make great frames out of aluminum,
ti, carbon, steel, you name it, if you do it with respect for the properties
of that material). It's because steel is the benchmark which is used for
comparison. Most major manufacturers probably have whole books full of test
data on conventional steel frames, because... simply because that's what
everyone knows, and that's what people will find as an acceptable level of
durability.
#2: Trek doesn't charge for warranty replacement frames, but labor to tear a
bike apart and rebuild it aren't covered. But there is no "$300 replacement
fee" to replace a frame that's crashed. You'll get a credit of about 20% of
the value of your original frame towards a new frame. It's not a warranty of
any sort, but rather a "customer loyalty" program.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1184467755.230927.83290@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 14, 4:24 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:2o4h93dsu3k6s185lmqnj4lpttar7h9mdq@4ax.com...
>>
>> > On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
>> > <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
>> >>other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
>> >>sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
>> >>steel frame has snapped in half.
>>
>> > FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
>> > half while someone is riding.
>>
>> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike would
>> bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
>
> This the reason why I refuse to buy a composite frame that only has a
> 3 or 5 year warranty. I used to work in bike shop and I think it's
> ridiculous that a person should pay more and get a shorter warranty.
> This is especially true when you consider how much these companies are
> charging for the frames. I like Treks policy of a $300 replacement fee
> if you crash the bike. I was considering a Treck OCLV, but they don't
> come in my size.
>
>> If you're supported by a sponsor who is buying your bikes it's no big
>> deal,
>> but if my Colnago C40 breaks (unlikely) I have to cough up the $7K+
>> myself.
>>
>> Mind you, I've seen steel bikes break but all of them were ridden back
>> home.
>> My AL frame and the carbon frames I've seen broken were not ridable.
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 10:34:02
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <8nAmi.8057$Od7.1744@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Mike
Jacoubowsky ('MikeJ@ChainReaction.com') wrote:
>>> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike
>>> would bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
>>
>> This the reason why I refuse to buy a composite frame that only has a
>> 3 or 5 year warranty. I used to work in bike shop and I think it's
>> ridiculous that a person should pay more and get a shorter warranty.
>> This is especially true when you consider how much these companies are
>> charging for the frames. I like Treks policy of a $300 replacement fee
>> if you crash the bike. I was considering a Treck OCLV, but they don't
>> come in my size.
>
> #1: Carbon frames don't "snap in half" when they hit something, unless
> #that
> something is, well, really something. I have seen high-quality carbon
> frames hold up in collisions that would have destroyed a steel frame. The
> reason for this is ridiculously obvious. It's not simply that carbon is a
> better material (as I've said before, you can make great frames out of
> aluminum, ti, carbon, steel, you name it, if you do it with respect for
> the properties of that material). It's because steel is the benchmark
> which is used for comparison. Most major manufacturers probably have
> whole books full of test data on conventional steel frames, because...
> simply because that's what everyone knows, and that's what people will
> find as an acceptable level of durability.
Carbon-composite frames come in at least four different types. There are
frames made up essentially like old, lugged steel frames - from separate
tubes assemble with lugs and glued together (e.g. LOOK KG451). There are
frames that are made from separate tubes where the joints are wrapped with
additional layers of fabric (e.g. Giant XTC Composite, Dolan elio). There
are monocoque frames laid up over mandrels which are shaped inflated bags,
withdrawn after the resin has been cured inside a female mould (e.g. LOOK
486 HM, I think). And finally there are monocoques laid up over light
rigid foam cores which remain permanently part of the frame (e.g. Dolan
Pallotola).
I would expect the four types to have different modes of failure - the
frame in Tom's anecdote which came apart at the head-tube joint clearly
wasn't a monocoque.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; when in the shit, the wise man plants courgettes
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2007 01:26:23
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:blqrm4-p0c.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <8nAmi.8057$Od7.1744@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Mike
>
> I would expect the four types to have different modes of failure - the
> frame in Tom's anecdote which came apart at the head-tube joint clearly
> wasn't a monocoque.
Absolutely. I stated that it was tubes fitted together with a VERY light
wrapping to hold everything together. It was a piss poor design make simply
to be able to brag that they had the lightest frames available.
But as others mentioned, carbon can be damaged inside with delamination that
doesn't show on the surface. Of course you could argue that steel is
precisely the same but the failure modes are considerably different.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 03:16:51
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:8nAmi.8057$Od7.1744@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> No, but they snap in half when they hit something that a steel bike
>>> would
>>> bounce off of. That's the problem as I see it.
>>
>> This the reason why I refuse to buy a composite frame that only has a
>> 3 or 5 year warranty. I used to work in bike shop and I think it's
>> ridiculous that a person should pay more and get a shorter warranty.
>> This is especially true when you consider how much these companies are
>> charging for the frames. I like Treks policy of a $300 replacement fee
>> if you crash the bike. I was considering a Treck OCLV, but they don't
>> come in my size.
>
> #1: Carbon frames don't "snap in half" when they hit something, unless
> that something is, well, really something. I have seen high-quality carbon
> frames hold up in collisions that would have destroyed a steel frame.
I don't believe that for a second. Not that a "good" carbon frame isn't a
good frame. But today's "good" means "ultra-light" and these kind are on the
very limit.
> #2: Trek doesn't charge for warranty replacement frames, but labor to tear
> a bike apart and rebuild it aren't covered. But there is no "$300
> replacement fee" to replace a frame that's crashed. You'll get a credit of
> about 20% of the value of your original frame towards a new frame. It's
> not a warranty of any sort, but rather a "customer loyalty" program.
Let's remember that Trek tried to get rid of that long term warranty in the
past and it cost them a bundle in sales. So it isn't because they have so
much faith in their products but because they have a much greater love of
profit which sales bring.
I'm not knocking Trek. I think they've done a marvelous job. In fact, I
wanted to get one but the C40 was cheaper and easier to find.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 10:48:28
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <DqBmi.8074$Od7.1662@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>> #1: Carbon frames don't "snap  in half" when they hit something, unless
>> that something is, well, really something. I have seen high-quality
>> carbon frames hold up in collisions that would have destroyed a steel
>> frame.
>
> I don't believe that for a second. Not that a "good" carbon frame isn't a
> good frame. But today's "good" means "ultra-light" and these kind are on
> the very limit.
Simply not true. Carbon frames are not significantly lighter than good
modern metal frames. A titanium Litespeed Ghisalo, for example, or any
bike made with the aluminium Columbus Starship tubeset, is lighter than
90% of the carbon composite frames out there. People aren't using carbon
because it's lighter, so much as because it's more resilient and stronger.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2007 01:22:26
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:dgrrm4-t8f.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <DqBmi.8074$Od7.1662@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>
>>> #1: Carbon frames don't "snap in half" when they hit something, unless
>>> that something is, well, really something. I have seen high-quality
>>> carbon frames hold up in collisions that would have destroyed a steel
>>> frame.
>>
>> I don't believe that for a second. Not that a "good" carbon frame isn't a
>> good frame. But today's "good" means "ultra-light" and these kind are on
>> the very limit.
>
> Simply not true. Carbon frames are not significantly lighter than good
> modern metal frames. A titanium Litespeed Ghisalo, for example, or any
> bike made with the aluminium Columbus Starship tubeset, is lighter than
> 90% of the carbon composite frames out there. People aren't using carbon
> because it's lighter, so much as because it's more resilient and stronger.
My collection ready to ride:
Basso Loto 10.92 kg
Colnago C40 9.32 kg
Colnago Super 11.6 kg
Eddy Merckx Corsa 0.1 11.88 kg
Eddy Merckx Ex Pro 10.09 kg
Fuji Newest 10.27 kg
Look KG 241 10.55 kg
Time VX (Edge?) 9.52 kg
Raleigh Team Xcross 10.42 kg
As you can see the Corsa, Loto and Super are all the heaviest to the tune of
some 5 lbs between the Corsa and the C40. You can feel that weight
difference while climbing but nowhere else. The Corsa is faster on the
flats.
Also remember that all these bikes have pumps, seat packs, pedals, water
bottles etc. and are completely ready for road. That stuff weights in at
some 1.5 kg or 3+ lbs so I make the lightest bare bike the C40 at 17.2 lbs
and the heaviest the Corsa at a shade under 23 lbs.
The Time is by all means the best of the best. It would be a whole lot
lighter if I put on super light wheels, light pedals, Chorus shifters
instead of Mirage, and I suppose there are lighter cranks than Force. A
Lance saddle instead of a Regal and a light seatpost would help as would
ZeroG brakes instead of Ultegra.
Fact is that I'm going to leave them all the way they are.
You'll note that the Ex Pro is a Ti frame and it isn't especially light. If
you push Ti to it's limits it becomes unsafe like super-light carbon. Same
with Al. Steel is a bit different of course as well as so much engineering
knowledge of the material makes designing close to the limits a great deal
safer with steel than with anything else.
If I were keeping two bikes they would be the C40 and the Time. And the
Basso and the Ex Pro. And the Super just for old time's sake.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 12:36:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Simon Brooke wrote:
> Simply not true. Carbon frames are not significantly lighter than good
> modern metal frames. A titanium Litespeed Ghisalo, for example, or any
> bike made with the aluminium Columbus Starship tubeset, is lighter than
> 90% of the carbon composite frames out there. People aren't using carbon
> because it's lighter, so much as because it's more resilient and stronger.
I owned a Orbea Starship a while back which was very light but also very
flexy (and at 67-68Kg I don't normally flex frames all that much). A
carbon frame like a Giant weighs as much (or little) as the starship but
is in a completely different stiffness league.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2007 17:02:15
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
In article <469b499b$0$5566$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com >,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote:
> > Simply not true. Carbon frames are not significantly lighter than good
> > modern metal frames. A titanium Litespeed Ghisalo, for example, or any
> > bike made with the aluminium Columbus Starship tubeset, is lighter than
> > 90% of the carbon composite frames out there. People aren't using carbon
> > because it's lighter, so much as because it's more resilient and stronger.
>
> I owned a Orbea Starship a while back which was very light but also very
> flexy (and at 67-68Kg I don't normally flex frames all that much). A
> carbon frame like a Giant weighs as much (or little) as the starship but
> is in a completely different stiffness league.
What Donald said. I'll have to find the recent stiffness tests I read:
the Ti Ghisallo is one of the flexiest frames available today.
Not, as they say, that there's anything wrong with that, unless it's
off-putting, or causes false shifts.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 09:00:45
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
There is much greater likelyhood that a composite frame will snap in
crash. There is also a greater possiblilty of sudden failure if a
carbon fiber frame has hairline cracks after a crash. With a steel
frame you will notice flex in the frame instead.
On Jul 14, 2:10 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 01:25:18 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
>
> <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Reynolds 953 has a tensile strength of 350,000 psi. This is far beyond
> >other materials in use today. One big advantage is that to have a
> >sudden failure with a steel frame. You don't see instances where a
> >steel frame has snapped in half.
>
> FUD. You're pouring FUD if you're suggesting carbon frames snap in
> half while someone is riding.
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 12:38:46
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:00:45 -0700, "hizark21@yahoo.com"
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote:
>There is much greater likelyhood that a composite frame will snap in
>crash.
In a crash? I asked you about your statement that " One big
advantage is that to have a sudden failure with a steel frame. You
don't see instances where a steel frame has snapped in half" and now
you're talking about failure in a crash?
You're either confused or trying to confuse.
> There is also a greater possiblilty of sudden failure if a
>carbon fiber frame has hairline cracks after a crash.
> With a steel
>frame you will notice flex in the frame instead.
Why is it more likely to notice in one material than another? Are you
saying a slightly broken carbon frame will not flex more?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 22:46:38
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On 07/10/2007 05:42 PM, in article _PUki.9397$Sb4.5138@newsfe21.lga, "Carl
Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net > wrote:
>
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> news:7FUki.9635$Rw1.1296@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
>> ...and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the bike
>> (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have happened,
>> which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
>>
>
> You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?
Mike sells:
Trek
Klein (Trek)
LeMond (Trek)
Gary Fisher (Trek)
And that's pretty much it.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 04:20:20
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?
>
>
>
> Mike sells:
>
> Trek
> Klein (Trek)
> LeMond (Trek)
> Gary Fisher (Trek)
>
> And that's pretty much it.
Pretty much, except that you can cross Klein off the list until they figure
out what to do with the line. The simplest thing to say is that we only sell
bikes from the Trek family.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 07:23:07
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > writes:
>
> Pretty much, except that you can cross Klein off the list until they figure
> out what to do with the line. The simplest thing to say is that we only sell
> bikes from the Trek family.
>
Not much choice there then is there?
--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
There is a rising sentiment in America today, it is nationalism.
Americans are growing weary of seeing their sons die in wars to bring
democracy to people who do not seem all that appreciative. They are
tired of reading of factories going to China and jobs going to India,
while illegal aliens march in their cities under foreign flags to
demand their "civil rights." They are tired of reading about new
billionaires as their wages fail to rise to compensate for soaring gas
prices and the falling value of their homes and are forced to buy
substandard Third World Junk instead of good solid Made in USA products.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 19:44:37
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 14, 6:39 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> In article <%kemi.7724$Od7.6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> >news:T2dmi.7216$rR.3382@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> > >> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> > >> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> > >> straighten the frame.
>
> > > Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength.
> > > Old steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by
> > > snapping in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern
> > > steel frames are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
>
> > So you're suggesting we all get old steel frames?
One thing to remember is that all riders crash eventually. So the more
you ride the greater the chance you will fall.
> Sure, if you crash a lot.
>
> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> Never take a tenant with a monkey.
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 18:56:58
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 14, 9:39 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> In article <%kemi.7724$Od7.6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> >news:T2dmi.7216$rR.3382@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> > >> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> > >> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> > >> straighten the frame.
>
> > > Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength.
> > > Old steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by
> > > snapping in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern
> > > steel frames are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
>
> > So you're suggesting we all get old steel frames?
>
> Sure, if you crash a lot.
>
> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> Never take a tenant with a monkey.
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
So Howard what's the best material, and design for major masters FATty
loading for cyclocross? I believe that rolled plate steel such as
found on the Iowa Class BBs would be about right for my new Cross
bike. I'm pretty amazed that my Masi has held up really well. For
quite a while I was actually afraid to ride it for fear of damaging
it.
Needless to say I'm a steel fan. Gonna let my LBS help decide on the
new frame becuase they are great.
They love Parlee, but haven't crash tested them. Don't think anyone
who has that kind of money has spent it crashing their Parlees though.
If someone could build a frame with massive lifting power and serious
streamlining us FATty's would beaty a path to get them.
Luckily I don't compound the problem by crashing much.
Bill C
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 20:15:09
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
In article <1184464618.164762.303210@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Jul 14, 9:39 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> > In article <%kemi.7724$Od7.6...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> > >news:T2dmi.7216$rR.3382@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > >> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> > > >> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> > > >> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> > > >> straighten the frame.
> >
> > > > Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength.
> > > > Old steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by
> > > > snapping in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern
> > > > steel frames are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
> >
> > > So you're suggesting we all get old steel frames?
> >
> > Sure, if you crash a lot.
>
> So Howard what's the best material, and design for major masters FATty
> loading for cyclocross? I believe that rolled plate steel such as
> found on the Iowa Class BBs would be about right for my new Cross
> bike. I'm pretty amazed that my Masi has held up really well. For
> quite a while I was actually afraid to ride it for fear of damaging
> it.
> Needless to say I'm a steel fan. Gonna let my LBS help decide on the
> new frame becuase they are great.
> They love Parlee, but haven't crash tested them. Don't think anyone
> who has that kind of money has spent it crashing their Parlees though.
> If someone could build a frame with massive lifting power and serious
> streamlining us FATty's would beaty a path to get them.
> Luckily I don't compound the problem by crashing much.
You know, all of the frame materials have good points - I like steel frames too. I
have two of 'em (and one CF frame). Mike is correct about the difference between
frames made with older alloys (like 531) and newer stuff. And another thing - this
Hizarkian "CF frames'll just snap" thing is silly, at best. I've seen all kinds of
frames break for all kinds of reasons, but if you have a simple lowside crash on a CF
framed bike, you don't have to start blubbing about the need to throw away the frame.
Simon had a sriously hard crash on one and it survived. One point about that is that
how you crash can make a huge difference in bike damage (as in, the rider can cushion
the impact). As an aside, I sort of have doubts about how hitting a little dog (with
no injuries to it) would cause the head tube to just pop off a CF frame. This sounds
a little too close to the standard "JRA" thing bike shops hear all the time.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 11:31:40
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
straighten the frame.
On Jul 14, 9:38 am, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetrem...@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:00:45 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
>
> <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >There is much greater likelyhood that a composite frame will snap in
> >crash.
>
> In a crash? I asked you about your statement that " One big
> advantage is that to have a sudden failure with a steel frame. You
> don't see instances where a steel frame has snapped in half" and now
> you're talking about failure in a crash?
>
> You're either confused or trying to confuse.
>
> > There is also a greater possiblilty of sudden failure if a
> >carbon fiber frame has hairline cracks after a crash.
> > With a steel
> >frame you will notice flex in the frame instead.
>
I am not sure if you notice the flex more, but I think there is a
greater likelyhood that you will notice flex in a steel frame if there
is a crack.
> Why is it more likely to notice in one material than another? Are you
> saying a slightly broken carbon frame will not flex more?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 23:33:07
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> straighten the frame.
Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength. Old
steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by snapping
in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern steel frames
are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
<hizark21@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1184437900.823315.146440@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> straighten the frame.
>
>
> On Jul 14, 9:38 am, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:00:45 -0700, "hizar...@yahoo.com"
>>
>> <hizar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >There is much greater likelyhood that a composite frame will snap in
>> >crash.
>>
>> In a crash? I asked you about your statement that " One big
>> advantage is that to have a sudden failure with a steel frame. You
>> don't see instances where a steel frame has snapped in half" and now
>> you're talking about failure in a crash?
>>
>> You're either confused or trying to confuse.
>>
>> > There is also a greater possiblilty of sudden failure if a
>> >carbon fiber frame has hairline cracks after a crash.
>> > With a steel
>> >frame you will notice flex in the frame instead.
>>
> I am not sure if you notice the flex more, but I think there is a
> greater likelyhood that you will notice flex in a steel frame if there
> is a crack.
>
>> Why is it more likely to notice in one material than another? Are you
>> saying a slightly broken carbon frame will not flex more?
>>
>> --
>> JT
>> ****************************
>> Remove "remove" to reply
>> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
>> ****************************
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 01:00:43
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:T2dmi.7216$rR.3382@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
>> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
>> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
>> straighten the frame.
>
> Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength.
> Old steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by
> snapping in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern
> steel frames are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
So you're suggesting we all get old steel frames?
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 18:39:59
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
In article <%kemi.7724$Od7.6084@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
> news:T2dmi.7216$rR.3382@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >> Crash resilence: In a crash a greater chance that a composite frame
> >> will snap or develop cracks. Steel is more ductile so there the frame
> >> can be straightened in certain cases. With composites you can't
> >> straighten the frame.
> >
> > Except that ductility tends to decrease with increased tensile strength.
> > Old steel frames had very low tensile strength, but they failed not by
> > snapping in half, but rather by doing an accordion immitation. Modern
> > steel frames are far more likely to fail by snapping or breaking.
>
> So you're suggesting we all get old steel frames?
Sure, if you crash a lot.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 07:08:42
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> Pretty much, except that you can cross Klein off the list until they
>> figure
>> out what to do with the line. The simplest thing to say is that we only
>> sell
>> bikes from the Trek family.
>>
>
> Not much choice there then is there?
Aside from the use of Bontrager components, there are significant
differences between brands. Trek and LeMond, for example, have very
different frame geometries and construction. The various brand managers are
fiercely competitive, not just with brands from elsewhere, but within
Waterloo Wisconsin as well. Lots of turf wars and battles for resources,
which is a good thing. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, Trek will
come out on top.
For what it's worth, we did phenomenally well the two years in which we
carried only Trek (before Trek purchased the other lines). Other reps would
come into the store and want to know, as if it were a bad thing, what we'd
tell people when they asked "Why do you only sell Trek?" And I'd explain
that I couldn't pay someone enough to ask that question! Great opening for
what we do and what we sell.
But I've probably already given you more info than you wanted. The TdF is
far more interesting...
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Davey Crockett" <d4Qaveycrockett@azurservers.com > wrote in message
news:878x9k7u84.fsf@azurservers.com...
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> writes:
>
>>
>> Pretty much, except that you can cross Klein off the list until they
>> figure
>> out what to do with the line. The simplest thing to say is that we only
>> sell
>> bikes from the Trek family.
>>
>
> Not much choice there then is there?
>
> --
> Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
> -
> There is a rising sentiment in America today, it is nationalism.
>
> Americans are growing weary of seeing their sons die in wars to bring
> democracy to people who do not seem all that appreciative. They are
> tired of reading of factories going to China and jobs going to India,
> while illegal aliens march in their cities under foreign flags to
> demand their "civil rights." They are tired of reading about new
> billionaires as their wages fail to rise to compensate for soaring gas
> prices and the falling value of their homes and are forced to buy
> substandard Third World Junk instead of good solid Made in USA products.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 06:50:00
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On 07/13/2007 01:08 AM, in article
_xFli.7501$zA4.5825@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> Aside from the use of Bontrager components, there are significant
> differences between brands. Trek and LeMond, for example, have very
> different frame geometries and construction. The various brand managers are
> fiercely competitive, not just with brands from elsewhere, but within
> Waterloo Wisconsin as well. Lots of turf wars and battles for resources,
> which is a good thing. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, Trek will
> come out on top.
I remember when both Trek and LeMond had their OCLV frames ... And the only
difference in "geometry" was how the frames were measured.
Trek measured C-T, whereas LeMond measured C-C, so a 56 cm Trek OCLV 5500
frame was called a 54 cm LeMond OCLV "Maillot Jaune" frame (to give the
"longer" top tube associated with LeMond geometry).
These days, at least at the top end, I'd have to agree with Mike ... The
LeMonds are very different than the Treks ...
The Trek Madone pretty much has NO similarity to the LeMond Tête de Course,
other than both being made of carbon fibre.
And by "when push comes to shove, Trek will come out on top", I assume Mike
means within Trek itself ... While Trek is the 800-lb gorilla in the US bike
world these days, I'm glad to see there there are LOTS of innovative
competitors still using a variety of materials including steel.
I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the Calfee
bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primarily a
lugged steel rider.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 21:55:45
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote in message
news:C2BCD118.5DEF9%stevens@veloworks.com...
>
> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
> Calfee
> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog was a
smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee snapped the
headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no material holding the
headtube onto the top and downtubes.
I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward manner -
that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was my friend I'd
sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up with a broken
neck.
> But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primarily a
> lugged steel rider.
My 1982 Colnago Super with a modern CF fork weighs within an ounce of my
Look and my Time VX. My Colnago C40 is a lb lighter but it also has a small
fortune in carbon fiber parts.
For anyone outside of racing, steel is still the idea material.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 04:33:41
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
>> Calfee
>> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>
> Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
>
> On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog was a
> smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee snapped the
> headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no material holding the
> headtube onto the top and downtubes.
>
> I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward manner -
> that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was my friend I'd
> sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up with a broken
> neck.
You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the frame?
You're not claiming that the frame broke prior to the crash are you? And if
you're not, what in the world would you be suing somebody for? The dog
owner, yes, but I've seen plenty of failures of, yes, STEEL frames in
crashes such as might have been the case here. You apparently don't recall
the days when it was more common than not to see a bike roll in the door
with a severely-buckled downtube? Those were STEEL frames. Modern frames
build of aluminum or carbon or, for that matter, modern steels are far
stronger. But in all cases they can be rendered useless in a single nasty
crash.
>
>> But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primarily
>> a
>> lugged steel rider.
>
> My 1982 Colnago Super with a modern CF fork weighs within an ounce of my
> Look and my Time VX. My Colnago C40 is a lb lighter but it also has a
> small fortune in carbon fiber parts.
>
> For anyone outside of racing, steel is still the idea material.
Because? Do you own a car that will exceed the speed limit plus whatever
safety margin might be required for passing? Why? Are you racing cars, or do
you just happen to enjoy something that performs a bit more than barely
adequate for the task? In all likelihood the choice of engine has little to
do in any meaningful with with how long it will take you to get from point-a
to point-b. And automatic transmission? Air conditioning? All manner of
little things that won't get you from point-a to point-b any faster, but yet
might add a bit to comfort & enjoyment. Just as carbon fiber might do for a
non-racer.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in message
news:BxSli.6874$rR.960@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com> wrote in message
> news:C2BCD118.5DEF9%stevens@veloworks.com...
>>
>> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
>> Calfee
>> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>
> Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
>
> On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog was a
> smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee snapped the
> headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no material holding the
> headtube onto the top and downtubes.
>
> I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward manner -
> that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was my friend I'd
> sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up with a broken
> neck.
>
>> But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primarily
>> a
>> lugged steel rider.
>
> My 1982 Colnago Super with a modern CF fork weighs within an ounce of my
> Look and my Time VX. My Colnago C40 is a lb lighter but it also has a
> small fortune in carbon fiber parts.
>
> For anyone outside of racing, steel is still the idea material.
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 23:27:48
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:FmYli.6942$rR.5562@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
>>> Calfee
>>> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>>
>> Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
>>
>> On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog was
>> a smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee snapped
>> the headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no material holding
>> the headtube onto the top and downtubes.
>>
>> I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward
>> manner - that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was my
>> friend I'd sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up with
>> a broken neck.
>
> You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the frame?
The smallish dog wasn't even hurt Mike. The head tube snapped off cleanly
CAUSING the crash not vise versa. Tell me, have you EVER seen the head tube
snap off of any other bike?
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 13:20:12
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
in message <UZcmi.7546$tj6.7154@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:FmYli.6942$rR.5562@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
>>>> Calfee
>>>> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>>>
>>> Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
>>>
>>> On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog
>>> was a smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee
>>> snapped the headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no
>>> material holding the headtube onto the top and downtubes.
>>>
>>> I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward
>>> manner - that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was
>>> my friend I'd sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up
>>> with a broken neck.
>>
>> You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the
>> frame?
>
> The smallish dog wasn't even hurt Mike. The head tube snapped off cleanly
> CAUSING the crash not vise versa. Tell me, have you EVER seen the head
> tube snap off of any other bike?
So that was a badly made bike. You know what? I've seen badly made steel
bikes and badly made aluminium bikes. There's nothing about the material
which makes it more or less likely to be put together on a Friday.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 02:57:32
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the frame?
>
> The smallish dog wasn't even hurt Mike. The head tube snapped off cleanly
> CAUSING the crash not vise versa. Tell me, have you EVER seen the head
> tube snap off of any other bike?
Yes. It was pretty common on one famous-label aluminum frame maybe six or
seven years ago. Metal-matrix something-or-other they called it. I've also
seen it on steel mountain bike frames. The former was due to incorrect use
of material, the latter was clearly an issue caused by too-little surface
area for the weld.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in message
news:UZcmi.7546$tj6.7154@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:FmYli.6942$rR.5562@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>>> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
>>>> Calfee
>>>> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>>>
>>> Craig Calfee understands carbon fiber.
>>>
>>> On a recent ride a guy that was with us hit a dog broadside. The dog was
>>> a smallish, young and skinny chocolate Lab. Our friend's Parlee snapped
>>> the headtube off cleanly and inspection showed almost no material
>>> holding the headtube onto the top and downtubes.
>>>
>>> I would recommend against these bikes in a rather straightforward
>>> manner - that bicycle was incorrectly designed and built and if I was my
>>> friend I'd sue them for such a failure. Especially since he ended up
>>> with a broken neck.
>>
>> You'd sue them because a dog caused them to crash, which broke the frame?
>
> The smallish dog wasn't even hurt Mike. The head tube snapped off cleanly
> CAUSING the crash not vise versa. Tell me, have you EVER seen the head
> tube snap off of any other bike?
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 09:05:39
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> I remember when both Trek and LeMond had their OCLV frames ... And the
> only
> difference in "geometry" was how the frames were measured.
Just two years (or was it only one?) if I recall correctly, and quickly seen
as a very wrong thing to do internally. It was apparently a bit of a problem
with Greg (LeMond) because he really liked the way the OCLV rode. At the
same time, Fisher "borrowed" the OCLV mountain bike frame as well. Another
big mistake.
The funniest thing was how many customers, many smart enough to be able to
figure such things out (you would think) would INSIST that their LeMond had
different geometry and rode quite differently from the Treks. That's when I
first learned that it wasn't always a good idea to try and correct people
when they thought something like that. They'd just get mad and call me an
idiot because it was just so obvious. Sigh.
> And by "when push comes to shove, Trek will come out on top", I assume
> Mike
> means within Trek itself ... While Trek is the 800-lb gorilla in the US
> bike
> world these days, I'm glad to see there there are LOTS of innovative
> competitors still using a variety of materials including steel.
Well, sort of. You're likely to see more "US" innovation in construction and
design using steel, and certainly gorgeous graphics and styling from the
likes of Calfee and Parlee. But for carbon, the future is where the money
is. It costs a fortune to come up and implement modern carbon designs, and
there are only a handful of companies in the world that are really doing it.
Very few mainstream bike companies do much more than visit China, attend
sessions on what that particular factory is going to be offering for the
next couple of years, tweak certain parameters to accomplish an individual
style and have them manufactured for them. One factory in particular makes
bikes for a whole lot of different companies, and it would take a very naive
person to believe there will be substantial differences in construction
techniques and quality between them.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote in message
news:C2BCD118.5DEF9%stevens@veloworks.com...
> On 07/13/2007 01:08 AM, in article
> _xFli.7501$zA4.5825@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Aside from the use of Bontrager components, there are significant
>> differences between brands. Trek and LeMond, for example, have very
>> different frame geometries and construction. The various brand managers
>> are
>> fiercely competitive, not just with brands from elsewhere, but within
>> Waterloo Wisconsin as well. Lots of turf wars and battles for resources,
>> which is a good thing. But ultimately, when push comes to shove, Trek
>> will
>> come out on top.
>
>
> I remember when both Trek and LeMond had their OCLV frames ... And the
> only
> difference in "geometry" was how the frames were measured.
>
> Trek measured C-T, whereas LeMond measured C-C, so a 56 cm Trek OCLV 5500
> frame was called a 54 cm LeMond OCLV "Maillot Jaune" frame (to give the
> "longer" top tube associated with LeMond geometry).
>
> These days, at least at the top end, I'd have to agree with Mike ... The
> LeMonds are very different than the Treks ...
>
> The Trek Madone pretty much has NO similarity to the LeMond Tête de
> Course,
> other than both being made of carbon fibre.
>
> And by "when push comes to shove, Trek will come out on top", I assume
> Mike
> means within Trek itself ... While Trek is the 800-lb gorilla in the US
> bike
> world these days, I'm glad to see there there are LOTS of innovative
> competitors still using a variety of materials including steel.
>
> I still drool everytime I see a picture of a Calfee Dragonfly or the
> Calfee
> bamboo bikes; and Parlee is a work-of-art in carbon ...
>
> But, with two Richard Sachs and a Ron Cooper, I will always be primarily a
> lugged steel rider.
>
>
> --
> Steven L. Sheffield
> stevens at veloworks dot com
> bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
> ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
> aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
> double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2007 18:54:50
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Well, sort of. You're likely to see more "US" innovation in construction and
> design using steel, and certainly gorgeous graphics and styling from the
> likes of Calfee and Parlee. But for carbon, the future is where the money
> is. It costs a fortune to come up and implement modern carbon designs, and
> there are only a handful of companies in the world that are really doing it.
> Very few mainstream bike companies do much more than visit China, attend
> sessions on what that particular factory is going to be offering for the
> next couple of years, tweak certain parameters to accomplish an individual
> style and have them manufactured for them.
Or Taiwan where Giant are located (my current frame is a TCR
advanced in sexy pi.. ahem mauve and black so I can show what a
metrosexual I am). I think Dedacciai in Italy do their own carbon, as do
Cervelo and Felt (the F1 looks like a nice frame) in the US/Canada.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 10:40:20
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Very few mainstream bike companies do much more than visit China, attend
>> sessions on what that particular factory is going to be offering for the
>> next couple of years, tweak certain parameters to accomplish an individual
>> style and have them manufactured for them.
Donald Munro wrote:
> Or Taiwan where Giant are located (my current frame is a TCR
> advanced in sexy pi.. ahem mauve and black so I can show what a
> metrosexual I am). I think Dedacciai in Italy do their own carbon, as do
> Cervelo and Felt (the F1 looks like a nice frame) in the US/Canada.
And before Sandy gets pipi'ed off with me, Look in France and having doing
carbon since before carbon became master fatty fashionable.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2007 12:50:38
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Donald Munro a écrit :
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>
>>> Very few mainstream bike companies do much more than visit China, attend
>>> sessions on what that particular factory is going to be offering for the
>>> next couple of years, tweak certain parameters to accomplish an individual
>>> style and have them manufactured for them.
>>>
>
> Donald Munro wrote:
>
>> Or Taiwan where Giant are located (my current frame is a TCR
>> advanced in sexy pi.. ahem mauve and black so I can show what a
>> metrosexual I am). I think Dedacciai in Italy do their own carbon, as do
>> Cervelo and Felt (the F1 looks like a nice frame) in the US/Canada.
>>
>
> And before Sandy gets pipi'ed off with me, Look in France and having doing
> carbon since before carbon became master fatty fashionable.
>
>
It's about time ! Looking good.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2007 22:13:02
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
In article
<ppNli.6377$rL1.3856@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> The funniest thing was how many customers, many smart enough to be able to
> figure such things out (you would think) would INSIST that their LeMond had
> different geometry and rode quite differently from the Treks. That's when I
> first learned that it wasn't always a good idea to try and correct people
> when they thought something like that. They'd just get mad and call me an
> idiot because it was just so obvious. Sigh.
Mathew 7:6
Get a tape measure, a level, protractor, and an
assistant with a clipboard; not a flunky, an assistant,
preferably a lady. Start measuring frames and calling
out numbers. In thirty minutes you have a thousand
dollars worth of information.
--
Michael Press
sexist dog
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2007 01:21:37
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
>> ...and generally a sense of ownership for as long as you have the bike
>> (meaning that we feel responsible for things that shouldn't have
>> happened, which is a bit different from just saying it has a warranty).
>>
>
> You don't happen to sell Bianchi, do you?
I must have fallen asleep at the keyboard when all this "Bianchi" stuff
happened. I know nothing about it... for all I know, Bianchi may have
supplied exceptional customer service, or the opposite.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 15:48:06
From:
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
On Jul 10, 1:39 pm, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1184099402.906411.257040@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.c=
om,
> caglios...@my-deja.com <caglios...@my-deja.com> a r=E9fl=E9chi, et puis a
> d=E9clar=E9 :
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> > Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> > to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> > has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> > versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find official retail prices
> > for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
>
> Imagine that there is no label on the bike. Do you like it still?
> These are old trademark names that have been acquired and reassigned to
> generic frames, which are then built up. Generic does not mean bad; it j=
ust
> means it doesn't have a more commercial name. Many bikes of this sort are
> sold under big name labels for more money. The bikes don't change; the
> labels change. Would you buy one without a label altogether?
>
> One concern, and it has been mentioned before about this seller, is a low=
er
> level of response to both sales inquiries and follow-up customer service.
> There is no local service, and I can't imagine service at a distance
> (shipping both ways) will be cheap.
>
> If their purchase contract allows return for full refund, you could consi=
der
> using that condition to allow yourself to look at the received bike, most
> attention of course to the frame, and take a chance.
>
> As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kines=
is.
> They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
> brands. I paid 46 euros for mine, and it's fine, and the things hung off
> the frame are all high quality, also fine.
> --
> Sandy
>
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate that marketing and name
recognition plays a large part en the pricing structures of higher end
road bike manufactures. As far as perceived quality for the bikes in
Bikesdirect, I can only go by the seller's description of the frames,
components, etc...so any reviews or experiences from cyclists who've
actually bought these machines would be more than helpful.
Regards,
JC
|
| |
Date: 10 Jul 2007 22:39:30
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Royal Windsor, Mercier, etc good quality/price ratio?
|
Dans le message de
news:1184099402.906411.257040@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
cagliostro@my-deja.com <cagliostro@my-deja.com > a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
> Hello,
>
> I've been thinking of purchasing a road bike from bikesdirect.com. The
> Royar Windsor brand, en particular, seems to be low priced en relation
> to its specs...the Mercier also seems like a high quality bike. Anyone
> has any experience with these bikes? Also, they quote a very low price
> versus "retail" but I haven't been able to find oficial retail prices
> for these brands. Any help will be very much appreciated.
Imagine that there is no label on the bike. Do you like it still?
These are old trademark names that have been acquired and reassigned to
generic frames, which are then built up. Generic does not mean bad; it just
means it doesn't have a more commercial name. Many bikes of this sort are
sold under big name labels for more money. The bikes don't change; the
labels change. Would you buy one without a label altogether?
One concern, and it has been mentioned before about this seller, is a lower
level of response to both sales inquiries and follow-up customer service.
There is no local service, and I can't imagine service at a distance
(shipping both ways) will be cheap.
If their purchase contract allows return for full refund, you could consider
using that condition to allow yourself to look at the received bike, most
attention of course to the frame, and take a chance.
As to labels, my winter bike came with none but the manufacturer's, Kinesis.
They build zillions of bikes, as did Giant years ago, almost all for big
brands. I paid 46 euros for mine, and it's fine, and the things hung off
the frame are all high quality, also fine.
--
Sandy
The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].
|
|
