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Main
Date: 01 Apr 2007 08:40:07
From: Nomen Nescio
Subject: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
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"This happened at the Poway Road at Highway 67. I've heard of this cyclists name, and seen him around
on his bike, that intersection is one of the most dangerous ones in the county.
God be with you riders, be careful."
http://www.10news.com/news/11459268/detail.html?rss=sand&psp=news#
http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?permit=2006-611
Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
UNION-TRIBUNE
March 31, 2007
POWAY: A bicyclist was killed in a collision with a car yesterday on state Route 67 at Poway Road during rush hour.
The cyclist was identified by the county Medical Examiner's Office as attorney Marc Carpenter, 46, of Lakeside.
Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a short distance south of the “T” intersection.
Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd Muenzer said.
Muenzer said Carpenter collided with a Nissan Sentra in the left lane, also going north. The impact knocked Carpenter
onto the roof and windshield of the car, then onto the pavement north of the intersection. He was declared dead at the
scene.
The Sentra driver, a 47-year-old Ramona man, was not injured.
Authorities blocked Poway Road at Espola Road and northbound Route 67 at Scripps Poway Parkway until about 8 p.m. to
investigate.
(http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20070331-9999-1m31pubsafe.html)
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 10:51:15
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 5, 10:58 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
> > On Apr 4, 6:52 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>I think you use the term "eye contact" very loosley. I don't make eye
> >>contact with drivers when I drive my car either. I occassionally do non
> >>verbal communication (wave a driver past; wave one through at a 4-way
> >>stop, etc.), but I'm not looking into their eyes in the hope that we
> >>have some level of understanding. I rely on right-of-way rules.
>
> >>Wayne
>
> > I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld, just a confirmation that I
> > have been seen. It's very easy to tell if someone is looking directly
> > at you, and until I make that connection I assume that I have not been
> > seen. You appear to be purposefully obtuse. This is stuff that is
> > taught in drivers-ed.
>
> Didn't you say you tried to make "eye contant," but to the driver you
> were invisible? This is what I'm talking about. Looking directly at you
> does not mean they see you. Thankfully I was not taught to try to make
> eye contact in my driver's ed.
>
> Wayne
What I said was "I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him". In other
words, I could tell he wasn't looking at me. How you managed to
extract the opposite meaning is a mystery to me.
Bret
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 14:17:36
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Dopes,
If you assume that motorists don't see you, then you should yield even
when you are not supposed to.
Regards,
Wayne
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 14:11:38
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
>
> What I said was "I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
> was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him". In other
> words, I could tell he wasn't looking at me. How you managed to
> extract the opposite meaning is a mystery to me.
>
Hopefully that taught you to not try to make "eye contact."
Wayne
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:08:38
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 4, 11:56 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 3:16 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > the discussion isn't about racing. if these experienced riders you
> > know are sliding across pavement on training rides and in traffic they
> > need to cut down their panache intake.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> The pros are the worst. When Moreno Argentin was here for winter
> training, he would hold out his hand in the "stop!" sign as he rode
> across traffic at intersections. And the entire Telekom train never
> stopped for anything. Drivers were pissed.
>
> One of the scariest things I've ever seen was following Harm Jansen
> down Highland Valley Road on a regular training ride where we just
> happened to run into him. On a left hand sweeper, he jammed it all the
> way over the the shoulder on the left side, then suddenly a car
> appeared coming the other way. He popped back into our lane, then
> jammed it right back against the left shoulder after the car passed. I
> about shit my pants. Didn't talk to him about it, but I'll bet he does
> that shit all the time on regular rides.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
Part of the problem is that few people are willing to call these guys
on their risky behavior because of their status. Ive seen similar
stuff with pros around Boulder.
My high school ski coach (small NH prep school) used to cross over to
the lefthand edge of the road on blind turns and at high speed while
driving us to ski races. Everyone in the car knew that he'd been
involved in a serious head-on collision before doing just that, but
nobody said anything because he was an authority figure and the most
tallented guy any of us had ever skied with. His risk management
skills really sucked though.
Bret
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 16:52:40
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article
<1175749718.811976.121000@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 11:56 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 4, 3:16 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > dumbass,
> >
> > > the discussion isn't about racing. if these experienced riders you
> > > know are sliding across pavement on training rides and in traffic they
> > > need to cut down their panache intake.
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > The pros are the worst. When Moreno Argentin was here for winter
> > training, he would hold out his hand in the "stop!" sign as he rode
> > across traffic at intersections. And the entire Telekom train never
> > stopped for anything. Drivers were pissed.
> >
> > One of the scariest things I've ever seen was following Harm Jansen
> > down Highland Valley Road on a regular training ride where we just
> > happened to run into him. On a left hand sweeper, he jammed it all the
> > way over the the shoulder on the left side, then suddenly a car
> > appeared coming the other way. He popped back into our lane, then
> > jammed it right back against the left shoulder after the car passed. I
> > about shit my pants. Didn't talk to him about it, but I'll bet he does
> > that shit all the time on regular rides.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > K. Gringioni.
>
>
> Part of the problem is that few people are willing to call these guys
> on their risky behavior because of their status. Ive seen similar
> stuff with pros around Boulder.
>
> My high school ski coach (small NH prep school) used to cross over to
> the lefthand edge of the road on blind turns and at high speed while
> driving us to ski races. Everyone in the car knew that he'd been
> involved in a serious head-on collision before doing just that, but
> nobody said anything because he was an authority figure and the most
> tallented guy any of us had ever skied with. His risk management
> skills really sucked though.
Risk management is for pussies.
There is only one way to the winner's circle.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 20:10:45
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 4, 6:52 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
>
> > As someone else has already said, it doesn't appear that you've done
> > much city (or even suburban) riding. Where do you ride that you never
> > make eye contact with drivers?
>
> I've ridden nearly every day, 7 days a week, for the last 20 years in
> Chapel Hill NC. Before that in NJ, AK, and UT. Commuting, training,
> recreation, touring. Never in a collision.
>
> I think you use the term "eye contact" very loosley. I don't make eye
> contact with drivers when I drive my car either. I occassionally do non
> verbal communication (wave a driver past; wave one through at a 4-way
> stop, etc.), but I'm not looking into their eyes in the hope that we
> have some level of understanding. I rely on right-of-way rules.
>
> Wayne
I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld, just a confirmation that I
have been seen. It's very easy to tell if someone is looking directly
at you, and until I make that connection I assume that I have not been
seen. You appear to be purposefully obtuse. This is stuff that is
taught in drivers-ed.
Bret
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 12:58:05
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
> On Apr 4, 6:52 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I think you use the term "eye contact" very loosley. I don't make eye
>>contact with drivers when I drive my car either. I occassionally do non
>>verbal communication (wave a driver past; wave one through at a 4-way
>>stop, etc.), but I'm not looking into their eyes in the hope that we
>>have some level of understanding. I rely on right-of-way rules.
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
> I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld, just a confirmation that I
> have been seen. It's very easy to tell if someone is looking directly
> at you, and until I make that connection I assume that I have not been
> seen. You appear to be purposefully obtuse. This is stuff that is
> taught in drivers-ed.
>
Didn't you say you tried to make "eye contant," but to the driver you
were invisible? This is what I'm talking about. Looking directly at you
does not mean they see you. Thankfully I was not taught to try to make
eye contact in my driver's ed.
Wayne
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 09:00:26
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On 4 Apr 2007 20:10:45 -0700, "Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote:
>I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld, just a confirmation that I
>have been seen. It's very easy to tell if someone is looking directly
>at you, and until I make that connection I assume that I have not been
>seen. You appear to be purposefully obtuse. This is stuff that is
>taught in drivers-ed.
So you had a drivers ed class that taught you that at normal driving
speeds, you made decisions based on eye contact? There are a lot
better things to do with your eyes at that point than making eye
contact, so I think you need to go back and kick your drivers ed
teacher up and down the street. In fact, unless you are talking about
backing your car into a parking space and the other car is in just the
right place, I think you can pretty much drive all day without once
making eye contact and be pretty damn safe.
Funny thing is, the same thing is true of riding a bicycle (except the
part about backing in to a space). Heaven help you if you make all
that effort to make eye contact and the sucker is wearing Highway
Patrol specials.
Eye contact isn't even what you think it is, you just think it is.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 13:12:50
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2007 20:10:45 -0700, "Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld, just a confirmation that I
>>have been seen. It's very easy to tell if someone is looking directly
>>at you, and until I make that connection I assume that I have not been
>>seen. You appear to be purposefully obtuse. This is stuff that is
>>taught in drivers-ed.
>
>
> So you had a drivers ed class that taught you that at normal driving
> speeds, you made decisions based on eye contact? There are a lot
> better things to do with your eyes at that point than making eye
> contact, so I think you need to go back and kick your drivers ed
> teacher up and down the street. In fact, unless you are talking about
> backing your car into a parking space and the other car is in just the
> right place, I think you can pretty much drive all day without once
> making eye contact and be pretty damn safe.
>
> Funny thing is, the same thing is true of riding a bicycle (except the
> part about backing in to a space). Heaven help you if you make all
> that effort to make eye contact and the sucker is wearing Highway
> Patrol specials.
>
> Eye contact isn't even what you think it is, you just think it is.
>
Testify!
Wayne
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Date: 05 Apr 2007 11:03:24
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
> I'm not talking about a Vulcan mind meld,
Now that is a good idea. Next time a driver pisses me off I'm going to
to practise my dark side skills and do a Darth Vader style remote
strangulation move.
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 15:25:48
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 4, 7:05 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 8:00 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Bret wrote:
>
> >>>>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>
> >>>>Wayne
>
> >>>Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
>
> >>If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
> >>way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
> >>enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
> >>to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
>
> >>Wayne
>
> > If you have an emergency plan for every car that approaches, how is
> > that different than my aproach? And it's not paranoia. It's saved me
> > more than once.
>
> I do not have an individual emergency plan for every car that
> approaches. I have a set of maneuvers to choose from and can implement
> whatever is appropriate for the situation. This is from motorcycle
> training. It applies to bicycling as well.
>
>
>
> > The one guy that managed to get me rolled a stop sign at about 25 mph
> > from a cross street. I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
> > was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him.
>
> It is not reasonable to try to make eye contact with a moving motorist.
> Eye contact is for lovers and close proximity conversation.
>
> Wayne
As someone else has already said, it doesn't appear that you've done
much city (or even suburban) riding. Where do you ride that you never
make eye contact with drivers?
Bret
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 20:52:43
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
>
> As someone else has already said, it doesn't appear that you've done
> much city (or even suburban) riding. Where do you ride that you never
> make eye contact with drivers?
>
I've ridden nearly every day, 7 days a week, for the last 20 years in
Chapel Hill NC. Before that in NJ, AK, and UT. Commuting, training,
recreation, touring. Never in a collision.
I think you use the term "eye contact" very loosley. I don't make eye
contact with drivers when I drive my car either. I occassionally do non
verbal communication (wave a driver past; wave one through at a 4-way
stop, etc.), but I'm not looking into their eyes in the hope that we
have some level of understanding. I rely on right-of-way rules.
Wayne
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 13:49:31
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Wayne Pein wrote:
> No matter
> > what you do or what you wear or where you ride,
> > there will always be an element of Russian Roulette
> > to riding on the streets.
> Reality.
>
> No, not reality. One doesn't have a 1 in 6 chance of having one's brains
> blown out when riding a bike
Thanks, literal guy.
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:56:26
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 4, 3:16 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
>
> dumbass,
>
> the discussion isn't about racing. if these experienced riders you
> know are sliding across pavement on training rides and in traffic they
> need to cut down their panache intake.
Dumbass -
The pros are the worst. When Moreno Argentin was here for winter
training, he would hold out his hand in the "stop!" sign as he rode
across traffic at intersections. And the entire Telekom train never
stopped for anything. Drivers were pissed.
One of the scariest things I've ever seen was following Harm Jansen
down Highland Valley Road on a regular training ride where we just
happened to run into him. On a left hand sweeper, he jammed it all the
way over the the shoulder on the left side, then suddenly a car
appeared coming the other way. He popped back into our lane, then
jammed it right back against the left shoulder after the car passed. I
about shit my pants. Didn't talk to him about it, but I'll bet he does
that shit all the time on regular rides.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:47:19
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 7:05 pm, "mal" <malcolm1...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Dumbarsehole
>
> You said he was negligent in paying attention.
Jackass -
Didn't use the word 'negligent' which has a negative connotation.
Said maybe he didn't see something. Not seeing something is something
we've all done.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 15:35:28
From: mal
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Read it again.
"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175708839.779206.162840@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 3, 7:05 pm, "mal" <malcolm1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Dumbarsehole
>>
>> You said he was negligent in paying attention.
>
>
> Jackass -
>
>
> Didn't use the word 'negligent' which has a negative connotation.
>
> Said maybe he didn't see something. Not seeing something is something
> we've all done.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
>
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 06:15:00
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 7:53 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 8:00 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > Bret wrote:
>
> > >>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>
> > >>Wayne
>
> > > Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
>
> > If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
> > way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
> > enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
> > to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
>
> > Wayne
>
> If you have an emergency plan for every car that approaches, how is
> that different than my aproach? And it's not paranoia. It's saved me
> more than once.
>
> The one guy that managed to get me rolled a stop sign at about 25 mph
> from a cross street. I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
> was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him. I took
> evasive action and manage to avoid a direct blow, but he took out my
> rear wheel and I hit the ground pretty hard. He couldn't have been
> more apologetic, said he was a cyclist too, had a roof rack on his
> car. Said he'd just had an argument with his girl friend and was
> distracted. He gave me a ride home and we stopped at a cash machine on
> the way so that he could get the amount we settled on to replace my
> rear wheel.
>
> Bret
Ok, I guess we are all on the same page, just different definitions.
What you describe is what Voigt was describing as well and what I (and
Wayne, I assume) always practice. But I wouldn't call it ride as you
are invisible. I'd call it defensive riding (I know, you mentioned
that term also). You still want to ride as visible as possible. In
your described scenario it is amazing how shifting from riding all the
way to the right to riding more in the center of the lane it
dramatically increases the chances to be seen. It also increases the
space and time you have to react if someone still doesn't see you.
When I notice someone looking away I shout a quick "Heads-up" and that
always makes them look and stop, even with their windows closed.
Recently I also stopped a police car when I was trying to cross as a
pedestrian at a light. The cop made a right and may not have seen me.
I became very visible to him very quickly so he stopped ( but yes, I
always could have avoided being hit as I was fully in control of the
situation).
As you mentioned crossing maneuvers are always more dangerous than
just riding straight, so yes, you have to be more vigilant at merges,
unions, intersections.
bjorn
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 16:18:25
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article <1175692500.581886.208450@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"bjorn" <procyclingpress@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Ok, I guess we are all on the same page, just different definitions.
> What you describe is what Voigt was describing as well and what I (and
> Wayne, I assume) always practice. But I wouldn't call it ride as you
> are invisible.
When I read the phrase "ride as if you are invisible" I don't interpret it to
mean that you need to *make yourself* invisible - it means that you should assume
that you are invisible to drivers (i.e. they don't see you) and you must behave in
a manner that takes that into account. To me, that phrase means that it's
imperative that the cyclist take responsibility for his own safety and not rely on
drivers to give him or her room (because they may not even be aware that you
exist). It is defensive riding.
> As you mentioned crossing maneuvers are always more dangerous than
> just riding straight, so yes, you have to be more vigilant at merges,
> unions, intersections.
All of the bad interactions I've had with cars have been with cars coming out of
cross streets (on my right mostly) and, more frequently, with cars coming toward me
and making left turns.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 04 Apr 2007 21:02:08
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Howard Kveck wrote:
> When I read the phrase "ride as if you are invisible" I don't interpret it to
> mean that you need to *make yourself* invisible - it means that you should assume
> that you are invisible to drivers (i.e. they don't see you) and you must behave in
> a manner that takes that into account.
If that is the case, you assume drivers don't see you, then you must
yield whenever one is pulling out from a side street, for example.
There have been a couple of times when my light ran out at night. I
assumed I was invisible and had to come to a stop at a couple of side
streets and driveways even though I was on the main road. But I don't
ride like that all the time because under normal circumstances I assume
drivers see me.
Wayne
|
| | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 20:41:07
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
"Wayne Pein" <wpein@nc.rr.com > wrote in message
news:46144a90$0$16730$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
>> When I read the phrase "ride as if you are invisible" I don't
>> interpret it to mean that you need to *make yourself* invisible - it
>> means that you should assume that you are invisible to drivers (i.e. they
>> don't see you) and you must behave in a manner that takes that into
>> account.
>
> If that is the case, you assume drivers don't see you, then you must yield
> whenever one is pulling out from a side street, for example.
>
> There have been a couple of times when my light ran out at night. I
> assumed I was invisible and had to come to a stop at a couple of side
> streets and driveways even though I was on the main road. But I don't ride
> like that all the time because under normal circumstances I assume drivers
> see me.
>
> Wayne
>
If you assume that under normal circumstances drivers see you, then you
would not need emergency plans.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:14:22
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> "Wayne Pein" <wpein@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
>>
>> There have been a couple of times when my light ran out at night. I
>> assumed I was invisible and had to come to a stop at a couple of side
>> streets and driveways even though I was on the main road. But I don't
>> ride like that all the time because under normal circumstances I
>> assume drivers see me.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>
> If you assume that under normal circumstances drivers see you, then you
> would not need emergency plans.
Why not? I assume they see me, but if they don't, which is a
possibility, I ought to know what to do? I don't see a conflict here.
Wayne
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:23:53
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
"Wayne Pein" <wpein@nc.rr.com > wrote in message
news:46145b7e$0$17174$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>
>>> There have been a couple of times when my light ran out at night. I
>>> assumed I was invisible and had to come to a stop at a couple of side
>>> streets and driveways even though I was on the main road. But I don't
>>> ride like that all the time because under normal circumstances I assume
>>> drivers see me.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>
>> If you assume that under normal circumstances drivers see you, then you
>> would not need emergency plans.
>
> Why not? I assume they see me, but if they don't, which is a possibility,
> I ought to know what to do? I don't see a conflict here.
>
> Wayne
>
"If they don't"? So you _are_ assuming that some drivers won't see you.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 13:08:10
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>
> "Wayne Pein" <wpein@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:46145b7e$0$17174$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>>>>
>>>> There have been a couple of times when my light ran out at night. I
>>>> assumed I was invisible and had to come to a stop at a couple of
>>>> side streets and driveways even though I was on the main road. But I
>>>> don't ride like that all the time because under normal circumstances
>>>> I assume drivers see me.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you assume that under normal circumstances drivers see you, then
>>> you would not need emergency plans.
>>
>>
>> Why not? I assume they see me, but if they don't, which is a
>> possibility, I ought to know what to do? I don't see a conflict here.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>
> "If they don't"? So you _are_ assuming that some drivers won't see you.
No. I assume they all see me, but there is the possibility that someone
won't.
I have an emergency plan in case I have a house fire. Do I assume I'm
going to have a house fire? No. I realize it's a possibility so I have a
plan.
Wayne
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 19:11:03
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Wayne Pein wrote:
> No. I assume they all see me, but there is the possibility that someone
> won't.
Get a dictionary.
--
E. Dronkert
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 14:19:18
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
>> No. I assume they all see me, but there is the possibility that
>> someone won't.
>
>
> Get a dictionary.
>
>
To bash you Dopes on the head?
Wayne
|
| | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 18:23:25
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article <46144a90$0$16730$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Wayne Pein <wpein@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > When I read the phrase "ride as if you are invisible" I don't interpret
> > it to mean that you need to *make yourself* invisible - it means that you should
> > assume that you are invisible to drivers (i.e. they don't see you) and you must
> > behave in a manner that takes that into account.
>
> If that is the case, you assume drivers don't see you, then you must
> yield whenever one is pulling out from a side street, for example.
Well, you could easily say that if you don't yield then you'll be "dead right."
It isn't necessary to yield, but paying attention, trying to get their attention
and being ready to make an evasive move is helpful. I should mention that I don't
tiptoe through traffic. People I've ridden with have told me that I'm assertive to
the point of aggression. I get on down the road and in the process let drivers do
the same.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 03:16:23
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 12:17 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:32 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 2, 6:03 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 12:57 am, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > > -- Experienced cyclists have dramatically lower accident
> > > > rates than beginners.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > I don't know about that. Surely by accidents per hour of exposure, but
>
> > also called accident rate...
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
> time sliding across the pavement as beginners did. Sure they're better
> bike handlers, but they push their envelope too (which is how they got
> good). Look at the Tour de France and its fearsome crash rate before
> they hit the mountains. As guys get better, they just try more
> difficult things.
dumbass,
the discussion isn't about racing. if these experienced riders you
know are sliding across pavement on training rides and in traffic they
need to cut down their panache intake.
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 19:53:14
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 8:00 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
>
> >>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>
> >>Wayne
>
> > Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
>
> If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
> way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
> enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
> to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
>
> Wayne
If you have an emergency plan for every car that approaches, how is
that different than my aproach? And it's not paranoia. It's saved me
more than once.
The one guy that managed to get me rolled a stop sign at about 25 mph
from a cross street. I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him. I took
evasive action and manage to avoid a direct blow, but he took out my
rear wheel and I hit the ground pretty hard. He couldn't have been
more apologetic, said he was a cyclist too, had a roof rack on his
car. Said he'd just had an argument with his girl friend and was
distracted. He gave me a ride home and we stopped at a cash machine on
the way so that he could get the amount we settled on to replace my
rear wheel.
Bret
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 09:05:55
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
> On Apr 3, 8:00 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Bret wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>>
>>>>Wayne
>>
>>>Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
>>
>>If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
>>way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
>>enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
>>to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
>
> If you have an emergency plan for every car that approaches, how is
> that different than my aproach? And it's not paranoia. It's saved me
> more than once.
I do not have an individual emergency plan for every car that
approaches. I have a set of maneuvers to choose from and can implement
whatever is appropriate for the situation. This is from motorcycle
training. It applies to bicycling as well.
>
> The one guy that managed to get me rolled a stop sign at about 25 mph
> from a cross street. I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
> was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him.
It is not reasonable to try to make eye contact with a moving motorist.
Eye contact is for lovers and close proximity conversation.
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 17:50:05
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 3:38 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 11:18 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>Bret wrote:
>
> >>>Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> >>>put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> >>>stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> >>>shoulder.
>
> >>Great idea! Not. Riding at night with no lights is invisible. Riding
> >>into a blinding sun is invisible. Riding at gray times with gray clothes
> >>is invisible.
>
> >>Officer: Sir, why did you hit that cyclist from behind?
> >>Driver: But officer, I didn't see the invisible cyclist.
>
> >>Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible." And you DO want
> >>motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
>
> >>Wayne
>
> > Where did I say that you shouldn't be visible?
>
> > Bret
>
> Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>
> Wayne
Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
Bret
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 22:00:52
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
>>
>>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
> Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
>
If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
Wayne
|
| | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:29:22
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article <461306d3$0$16740$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Wayne Pein <wpein@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
>
>
> >>
> >>Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
> >>
> >>Wayne
> >
> >
> > Ride with no expectation that you will be seen.
> >
>
> If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
> way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
> enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
> to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
You have an ax to grind, have never offered respect to
someone's point of view at variance with yours, and no
longer deserve a respectful hearing, though you still get
one.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 20:54:52
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Michael Press wrote:
>>If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
>>way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
>>enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
>>to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
>
>
> You have an ax to grind, have never offered respect to
> someone's point of view at variance with yours, and no
> longer deserve a respectful hearing, though you still get
> one.
Actually, it seems you have the ax to grind.
Wayne
|
| | | | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 04:14:43
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article <461448dc$0$5788$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
Wayne Pein <wpein@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> >>If I actually literally rode that way, assuming there is truely a
> >>way/style to do that, cycling would be too much paranoia to be
> >>enjoyable. I expect motorists to see me because I take specific measures
> >>to that end. But I also have an emergency plan for if someone doesn't.
> >
> >
> > You have an ax to grind, have never offered respect to
> > someone's point of view at variance with yours, and no
> > longer deserve a respectful hearing, though you still get
> > one.
>
> Actually, it seems you have the ax to grind.
No! _You're_ a poopy-head!
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 17:13:08
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Wayne Pein wrote:
> > That's nice, but cyclists can be overlooked no matter
> > where they ride or what they wear. That's reality.
> > Best to deal with reality, and not a dreamworld.
>
>
> Doom. Gloom. Doom. Gloom.
>
> Do tell us how to deal with your "reality" then.
What do you mean how do I deal with it?
I keep riding, that's how. I keep riding and I
realize that my chances of getting crashed into
from behind are extremely small (same-direction
drivers are much more likely to notice cyclists
ahead than turning and crossing drivers, for a
variety of reasons), but some chance is always
going to be there, no matter what I do.
You can't control everything, Wayne. No matter
what you do or what you wear or where you ride,
there will always be an element of Russian Roulette
to riding on the streets. Reality. Your best chance
is to deal with reality as it is, not how you hope
or wish it to be. If you understand the inevitability
of being overlooked at least occasionally it will put
you into the proper mindset to be ready, rather
than surprised, when the inevitable occurs.
> >>And you DO want
> >>motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
> >
> >
> > Naaa. Not if they don't have to. I don't subscribe
> > to the contrived hindrance philosophy. And I'm
> > not as royally freaked out as some clearly are
> > by the prospect of same-direction traffic.
> >
>
> Apparently you ARE freaked out by same-direction traffic or you wouldn't
> be telling us the "reality" that we can be overlooked "no matter where
> they (we) ride or what they (we) wear."
No I'm not freaked out. But it does happen to be true
that cyclists can be overlooked no matter where they
ride or what they wear. Speed is a much more important
factor in our conspicuity to motorists than lane
position, btw. I have had occasion to be overlooked
in every lane position imaginable. It's only the clueless
innocent ones who still believe that lane position is
some magic bullet of cyclist visibility.
> And of course I wouldn't want to slow motorists "if they don't have to."
> I slow them when, by my definition, they do have to.
>
> How do you like them apples?
I think you don't ride much in the city.
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:24:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article
<1175645588.205711.315490@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
> > > That's nice, but cyclists can be overlooked no matter
> > > where they ride or what they wear. That's reality.
> > > Best to deal with reality, and not a dreamworld.
> >
> >
> > Doom. Gloom. Doom. Gloom.
> >
> > Do tell us how to deal with your "reality" then.
>
> What do you mean how do I deal with it?
> I keep riding, that's how. I keep riding and I
> realize that my chances of getting crashed into
> from behind are extremely small (same-direction
> drivers are much more likely to notice cyclists
> ahead than turning and crossing drivers, for a
> variety of reasons), but some chance is always
> going to be there, no matter what I do.
>
> You can't control everything, Wayne. No matter
> what you do or what you wear or where you ride,
> there will always be an element of Russian Roulette
> to riding on the streets. Reality. Your best chance
> is to deal with reality as it is, not how you hope
> or wish it to be. If you understand the inevitability
> of being overlooked at least occasionally it will put
> you into the proper mindset to be ready, rather
> than surprised, when the inevitable occurs.
>
> > >>And you DO want
> > >>motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
> > >
> > >
> > > Naaa. Not if they don't have to. I don't subscribe
> > > to the contrived hindrance philosophy. And I'm
> > > not as royally freaked out as some clearly are
> > > by the prospect of same-direction traffic.
> > >
> >
> > Apparently you ARE freaked out by same-direction traffic or you wouldn't
> > be telling us the "reality" that we can be overlooked "no matter where
> > they (we) ride or what they (we) wear."
>
> No I'm not freaked out. But it does happen to be true
> that cyclists can be overlooked no matter where they
> ride or what they wear. Speed is a much more important
> factor in our conspicuity to motorists than lane
> position, btw. I have had occasion to be overlooked
> in every lane position imaginable. It's only the clueless
> innocent ones who still believe that lane position is
> some magic bullet of cyclist visibility.
I think plenty of drivers crash into cars they never saw,
but they know they will never get away with saying it so
they make up some other lame excuse that will not be
laughed out of court. Morons.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 21:44:02
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>
>
>>>That's nice, but cyclists can be overlooked no matter
>>>where they ride or what they wear. That's reality.
>>>Best to deal with reality, and not a dreamworld.
>>
>>
>>Doom. Gloom. Doom. Gloom.
>>
>>Do tell us how to deal with your "reality" then.
>
>
> What do you mean how do I deal with it?
> I keep riding, that's how. I keep riding and I
> realize that my chances of getting crashed into
> from behind are extremely small (same-direction
> drivers are much more likely to notice cyclists
> ahead than turning and crossing drivers, for a
> variety of reasons), but some chance is always
> going to be there, no matter what I do.
>
> You can't control everything, Wayne.
Don't put words in my mouth. I've never claimed that.
No matter
> what you do or what you wear or where you ride,
> there will always be an element of Russian Roulette
> to riding on the streets.
Reality.
No, not reality. One doesn't have a 1 in 6 chance of having one's brains
blown out when riding a bike, unless one rides like an idiot.
>
> I think you don't ride much in the city.
I think you don't know what my riding experience is.
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 13:55:42
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 11:18 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible."
That's nice, but cyclists can be overlooked no matter
where they ride or what they wear. That's reality.
Best to deal with reality, and not a dreamworld.
> And you DO want
> motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
Naaa. Not if they don't have to. I don't subscribe
to the contrived hindrance philosophy. And I'm
not as royally freaked out as some clearly are
by the prospect of same-direction traffic.
Robert
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 17:35:13
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
r15757@aol.com wrote:
> On Apr 3, 11:18 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible."
>
>
> That's nice, but cyclists can be overlooked no matter
> where they ride or what they wear. That's reality.
> Best to deal with reality, and not a dreamworld.
Doom. Gloom. Doom. Gloom.
Do tell us how to deal with your "reality" then.
>
>
>
>>And you DO want
>>motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
>
>
> Naaa. Not if they don't have to. I don't subscribe
> to the contrived hindrance philosophy. And I'm
> not as royally freaked out as some clearly are
> by the prospect of same-direction traffic.
>
Apparently you ARE freaked out by same-direction traffic or you wouldn't
be telling us the "reality" that we can be overlooked "no matter where
they (we) ride or what they (we) wear."
And of course I wouldn't want to slow motorists "if they don't have to."
I slow them when, by my definition, they do have to.
How do you like them apples?
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 13:54:59
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 11:18 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
> > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > shoulder.
>
> Great idea! Not. Riding at night with no lights is invisible. Riding
> into a blinding sun is invisible. Riding at gray times with gray clothes
> is invisible.
>
> Officer: Sir, why did you hit that cyclist from behind?
> Driver: But officer, I didn't see the invisible cyclist.
>
> Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible." And you DO want
> motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
>
> Wayne
Where did I say that you shouldn't be visible?
Bret
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 17:38:12
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
> On Apr 3, 11:18 am, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Bret wrote:
>>
>>>Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
>>>put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
>>>stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
>>>shoulder.
>>
>>Great idea! Not. Riding at night with no lights is invisible. Riding
>>into a blinding sun is invisible. Riding at gray times with gray clothes
>>is invisible.
>>
>>Officer: Sir, why did you hit that cyclist from behind?
>>Driver: But officer, I didn't see the invisible cyclist.
>>
>>Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible." And you DO want
>>motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
>>
>>Wayne
>
>
> Where did I say that you shouldn't be visible?
>
> Bret
>
Tell us how to ride as if we are invisible. What should we do?
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 08:19:44
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 8:40 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 4:30 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 12:40 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > > > > the brakes.
>
> > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > > > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > > > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > > > > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > > > > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > > > > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > > > > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > > > > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > > > > they were speeding or not.
>
> > > > > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > > > > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > > > > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > > > > bjorn
>
> > > > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > > > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > > > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > > > shoulder.
>
> > > > Bret
>
> > > I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> > > case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> > > lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
> > > On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
> > > are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
> > > you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
> > > to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
> > > someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
> > > you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
>
> > > I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
> > > made a good point about full lane use:
>
> > >http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/csc...
>
> > > I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
> > > the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
> > > are usually very curteous.
>
> > > bjorn- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > The cops here have been known to stop riders who are using the whole
> > lane and ticket them. In some towns it's guaranteed if they see you
> > doing it. The ticket is for "impeding traffic".
> > Bill C
>
> That wouldn't hold up in any court. In California, if a lane is
> substandard width you can be riding in any part of the lane (CVC
> 21202).On a multi-lane road I have never seen a lane to the left of
> the right-most lane that doesn't qualify for substandard width.
>
> Other states may have different wording, but should be pretty much the
> same effect (all state's vehicle codes are based on the Universal
> Vehicle Code.
>
> But as others have suggested maybe there is a lot of speeding going
> on. Then the police needs to step up and stop that practice.
>
> bjorn- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The tickets have routinely been upheld in court. That's why they keep
writing them. You have the right to the lane if you are turning left
otherwise you are required to allow traffic to keep flowing at it's
speed.
Several of our club members have tried fighting this along with
MassBike and gotten nowhere.
Massbike has introduced a new cyclist bill of rights:
http://massbike.org/news/bikebillrefiled030907.htm
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 11:48:35
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On 3 Apr 2007 08:19:44 -0700, "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net >
wrote:
>> Other states may have different wording, but should be pretty much the
>> same effect (all state's vehicle codes are based on the Universal
>> Vehicle Code.
>>
>> But as others have suggested maybe there is a lot of speeding going
>> on. Then the police needs to step up and stop that practice.
>>
>> bjorn- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>The tickets have routinely been upheld in court. That's why they keep
>writing them. You have the right to the lane if you are turning left
>otherwise you are required to allow traffic to keep flowing at it's
>speed.
> Several of our club members have tried fighting this along with
>MassBike and gotten nowhere.
> Massbike has introduced a new cyclist bill of rights:
>
>http://massbike.org/news/bikebillrefiled030907.htm
>
>Bill C
The comment about each state's codes being based on the UVC is only
generally, sort of correct and the area addressing bicycles and other
non-motorized vehicles is an area where they routinely deviate from
the UVC. In some states local jurisdictions are allowed to pass
separate codes impacting bicycles, among others. In other states, they
are close to or better than the UVC and also prohibit any local
jurisdiction from passing more stringent codes. And others run the
gamut in between.
Assuming that any two states have the same code as it applies to
bicycles traveling on roadways or roadway ROW, or even that they agree
on what precisely a bicycle is, is a dangerous assumption.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 05:45:43
From: yeahyeah
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 4:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > the brakes.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> fault is if he were speeding.
>
> The road that the cyclist was turning onto dead ends into the road
> that the accident happened on. The other scenario where the driver
> could be at fault is if the cyclist were simply on the shoulder and
> the car hit him from behind, but that doesn't sound like it was the
> case.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
Dumbass - I have no idea who was at fault in this case, but was simply
making the point that the yellow journalist makes it seem as if the
cyclist was at fault by using the word 'veered' - as if the rider just
slammed over to the left without looking. If the guy was as
experienced as the previous poster said, then I doubt that was the
case. I find it annoying that news reports always blame the dead guy
for the accident, because he's not around to defend himself.
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 05:40:33
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 4:30 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 12:40 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > > > the brakes.
>
> > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > > > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > > > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > > > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > > > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > > > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > > > they were speeding or not.
>
> > > > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > > > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > > > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > > > bjorn
>
> > > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > > shoulder.
>
> > > Bret
>
> > I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> > case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> > lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
> > On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
> > are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
> > you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
> > to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
> > someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
> > you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
>
> > I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
> > made a good point about full lane use:
>
> >http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/csc...
>
> > I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
> > the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
> > are usually very curteous.
>
> > bjorn- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The cops here have been known to stop riders who are using the whole
> lane and ticket them. In some towns it's guaranteed if they see you
> doing it. The ticket is for "impeding traffic".
> Bill C
That wouldn't hold up in any court. In California, if a lane is
substandard width you can be riding in any part of the lane (CVC
21202).On a multi-lane road I have never seen a lane to the left of
the right-most lane that doesn't qualify for substandard width.
Other states may have different wording, but should be pretty much the
same effect (all state's vehicle codes are based on the Universal
Vehicle Code.
But as others have suggested maybe there is a lot of speeding going
on. Then the police needs to step up and stop that practice.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 04:30:20
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 12:40 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > > the brakes.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > > they were speeding or not.
>
> > > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > > bjorn
>
> > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > shoulder.
>
> > Bret
>
> I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
> On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
> are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
> you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
> to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
> someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
> you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
>
> I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
> made a good point about full lane use:
>
> http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/csc...
>
> I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
> the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
> are usually very curteous.
>
> bjorn- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The cops here have been known to stop riders who are using the whole
lane and ticket them. In some towns it's guaranteed if they see you
doing it. The ticket is for "impeding traffic".
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 00:19:56
From: sergio
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 7:46 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
- check outhttp://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/program/laird.htmto
see
> what can happen when you ride in the bike lane in a case when you
> shouldn't.
Though I have read only part of this whole thread, here is an old
suggestion of mine.
That cars should have a light and acoustic signal for a few seconds
before doors can be opened.
Sergio
Pisa
P.s. I am always scared to ride bike lanes over here. In fact, I avoid
them altogether..
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 22:46:20
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 10:31 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 10:40 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > > > the brakes.
>
> > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > > > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > > > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > > > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > > > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > > > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > > > they were speeding or not.
>
> > > > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > > > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > > > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > > > bjorn
>
> > > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > > shoulder.
>
> > > Bret
>
> > I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> > case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> > lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
> > On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
> > are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
> > you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
> > to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
> > someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
> > you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
>
> > I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
> > made a good point about full lane use:
>
> >http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/csc...
>
> > I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
> > the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
> > are usually very curteous.
>
> > bjorn
>
> There's a big difference between being invisible and riding as if you
> are invisible. I'm just talking about being extremely defensive. I'll
> even take it a step further and say that it's a good idea to assume
> every driver is incompetent.
>
> Voight is correct where he says "[cyclists] have too much faith that
> they are seen."
>
> Bret
Bret,
Since he said that "if a cyclists sees a car driver they assume the
reverse" this was meant for cars coming out of side streets, not from
behind.
His statement:
"So you use the whole lane and if a car approaches from behind they
have to maybe slow down, then pass when it is safe. This may seem
paradox, but it makes perfect sense. If we ride single-file and a car
approaches at 50mph they may think that they can squeeze through. And
then the slightest swerve of the cyclist can be catastrophic."
doesn't sound to me as he is riding as he were invisible.
I do agree with defensive riding, but I have also seen cyclists that
ride so far to the right (to be invisible to the cars) that they
endanger themselves more (Jens mentioned that then they get passed at
closer distances and they can also get doored - check out
http://www.bikexprt.com/massfacil/cambridge/program/laird.htm to see
what can happen when you ride in the bike lane in a case when you
shouldn't.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 22:42:43
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 10:32 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175573874.906925.71110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
> > time sliding across the pavement as beginners did. Sure they're better
> > bike handlers, but they push their envelope too (which is how they got
> > good). Look at the Tour de France and its fearsome crash rate before
> > they hit the mountains. As guys get better, they just try more
> > difficult things.
>
> You're so full of crap you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.
No, he's right. The top end of the sport is way more dangerous than
the cat 4s for the reasons stated. They take more chances. They're
also not as concerned at times about whether they knock each other
down.
Bret
Bret
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 22:35:27
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 9:53 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:40 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> > case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> > lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> How do you know he was "clearly in the left lane"?
>
> The press report in the initial post said he "pedaling north on Route
> 67 in the right lane or shoulder and veered into the left lane".
>
> Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. How do you know?
I don't know which is why I said:
"So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
to figure out who was at fault. "
Initially you stated "but in that situation the car has the right of
way." and I merely said that there wasn't enough information for that
statement.
Since you just agreed that you don't know either, we are on the same
page again :)
> thanks,
you are welcome.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 22:31:37
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 10:40 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > > the brakes.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > > they were speeding or not.
>
> > > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > > bjorn
>
> > Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> > put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> > stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> > shoulder.
>
> > Bret
>
> I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
> On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
> are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
> you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
> to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
> someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
> you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
>
> I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
> made a good point about full lane use:
>
> http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/csc...
>
> I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
> the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
> are usually very curteous.
>
> bjorn
There's a big difference between being invisible and riding as if you
are invisible. I'm just talking about being extremely defensive. I'll
even take it a step further and say that it's a good idea to assume
every driver is incompetent.
Voight is correct where he says "[cyclists] have too much faith that
they are seen."
Bret
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 21:53:43
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 9:40 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
> case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
> lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
Dumbass -
How do you know he was "clearly in the left lane"?
The press report in the initial post said he "pedaling north on Route
67 in the right lane or shoulder and veered into the left lane".
Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. How do you know?
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 21:40:35
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > the brakes.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > they were speeding or not.
>
> > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > bjorn
>
> Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> shoulder.
>
> Bret
I fully agree with your first sentence. But if that really was the
case (i.e. inattentive driver hit cyclist who was clearly in the left
lane), that is a very rare type of accident.
On visibility I have a different opinion. If you are riding like you
are invisible then you are obviously more likely to get hit than when
you ride to be as visible as possible because drivers are less likely
to see to see something that is invisible. Yes, there is always
someone fiddling with a cell phone, but they are more likely to notice
you when you are very visible (clothing + lane positioning).
I asked a few pro riders about bike safety and especially Jens Voigt
made a good point about full lane use:
http://www.procyclingpress.com/racereports/tofcali07/cscpressconf/cscpressconf.html
I live in an area with many 4-6 lane boulevards, so I have to ride in
the traffic lanes to get to the left turn lanes frequently. Drivers
are usually very curteous.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 21:19:58
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 9:00 pm, "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > > the brakes.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> > That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> > when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> > can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> > moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> > has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> > they were speeding or not.
>
> > So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> > to figure out who was at fault.
>
> > Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> > bjorn
>
> Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> shoulder.
Dumbass -
Agreed and on Route 67 most everyone's doing 60+ mph. In California,
people drive fast on the thoroughfares.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 21:17:54
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 6:32 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:03 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 2, 12:57 am, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > -- Experienced cyclists have dramatically lower accident
> > > rates than beginners.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > I don't know about that. Surely by accidents per hour of exposure, but
>
> also called accident rate...
Dumbass -
Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
time sliding across the pavement as beginners did. Sure they're better
bike handlers, but they push their envelope too (which is how they got
good). Look at the Tour de France and its fearsome crash rate before
they hit the mountains. As guys get better, they just try more
difficult things.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 04:32:43
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175573874.906925.71110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
> time sliding across the pavement as beginners did. Sure they're better
> bike handlers, but they push their envelope too (which is how they got
> good). Look at the Tour de France and its fearsome crash rate before
> they hit the mountains. As guys get better, they just try more
> difficult things.
You're so full of crap you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 21:00:46
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 7:31 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > > the brakes.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> > situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> > fault is if he were speeding.
>
> That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
> when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
> can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
> moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
> has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
> they were speeding or not.
>
> So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
> to figure out who was at fault.
>
> Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
>
> bjorn
Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
shoulder.
Bret
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 13:18:09
From: Wayne Pein
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Bret wrote:
> Yes, but it's no good being right and dead in these situations. Don't
> put yourself in a situation where someone needs to brake for you to
> stay alive. Ride as if you are invisible when you're not on a
> shoulder.
>
Great idea! Not. Riding at night with no lights is invisible. Riding
into a blinding sun is invisible. Riding at gray times with gray clothes
is invisible.
Officer: Sir, why did you hit that cyclist from behind?
Driver: But officer, I didn't see the invisible cyclist.
Folks, you want to be highly visible, not "invisible." And you DO want
motorists to slow and exhibit caution.
Wayne
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 18:32:57
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 6:03 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 12:57 am, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > -- Experienced cyclists have dramatically lower accident
> > rates than beginners.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I don't know about that. Surely by accidents per hour of exposure, but
also called accident rate...
bjorn
> in the case of racing and otherwise, experienced cyclists usually have
> many more hours of exposure.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 18:31:08
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 1:31 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> > bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> > was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> > driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> > the brakes.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
> situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
> fault is if he were speeding.
That is not quite correct. In California, you can leave the bike lane
when preparing for a left turn (CVC 21208 (a) (2) ). Of course you
can't just blindly move over. But if the guy checked back and then
moved over and was already in the left lane when the car approached he
has the right of way over anybody coming from behind, no matter if
they were speeding or not.
So it really depends how and when the cyclist moved to the left lane
to figure out who was at fault.
Sure sad to hear about these tragic incidents.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 13:31:36
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 6:33 am, "yeahyeah" <pedalch...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
> bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
> was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
> driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
> the brakes.
Dumbass -
I don't really want to harp on the actions on a dead guy, but in that
situation the car has the right of way. The only way the driver was at
fault is if he were speeding.
The road that the cyclist was turning onto dead ends into the road
that the accident happened on. The other scenario where the driver
could be at fault is if the cyclist were simply on the shoulder and
the car hit him from behind, but that doesn't sound like it was the
case.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 12:45:59
From: Bret
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 5, 12:11 pm, Wayne Pein <w...@nc.rr.com > wrote:
> Bret wrote:
>
> > What I said was "I was trying to make eye contact with him but he
> > was looking further up the road and I was invisible to him". In other
> > words, I could tell he wasn't looking at me. How you managed to
> > extract the opposite meaning is a mystery to me.
>
> Hopefully that taught you to not try to make "eye contact."
>
> Wayne
I believe that I narrowly avoided much more serious injury by
preemptively checking the drivers gaze. I still do it. I did it today
on my noon ride.
Bret
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 06:33:12
From: yeahyeah
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 1, 2:40 am, Nomen Nescio <nob...@dizum.com > wrote:
> "This happened at the Poway Road at Highway 67. I've heard of this cyclists name, and seen him around
> on his bike, that intersection is one of the most dangerous ones in the county.
> God be with you riders, be careful."
>
> http://www.10news.com/news/11459268/detail.html?rss=sand&psp=news#
>
> http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?permit=2006-611
>
> Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
>
> UNION-TRIBUNE
>
> March 31, 2007
>
> POWAY: A bicyclist was killed in a collision with a car yesterday on state Route 67 at Poway Road during rush hour.
>
> The cyclist was identified by the county Medical Examiner's Office as attorney Marc Carpenter, 46, of Lakeside.
>
> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>
> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>
> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd Muenzer said.
>
> Muenzer said Carpenter collided with a Nissan Sentra in the left lane, also going north. The impact knocked Carpenter
>
> onto the roof and windshield of the car, then onto the pavement north of the intersection. He was declared dead at the
>
> scene.
>
> The Sentra driver, a 47-year-old Ramona man, was not injured.
>
> Authorities blocked Poway Road at Espola Road and northbound Route 67 at Scripps Poway Parkway until about 8 p.m. to
>
> investigate.
>
> (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20070331-9999-1m31pubs...)
I love how the reporter describes his action as "veered". It's too
bad the guy was dead and couldn't give his version of the story, which
was probably that he moved over, signalling all the while but the
driver was dialing his cell phone and plowed into him without hitting
the brakes.
Just like history is written by the victors, accident reports are
written by the survivors... my condolences go out to his friends and
family.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 09:14:22
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 3, 9:48 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> On 3 Apr 2007 08:19:44 -0700, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >The tickets have routinely been upheld in court. That's why they keep
> >writing them. You have the right to the lane if you are turning left
> >otherwise you are required to allow traffic to keep flowing at it's
> >speed.
Ok, maybe it differs more in other states than I thought. However, the
above sentence is not correct for California. Look at California
Vehicle Code, Section 21202. It lists a lot of exemptions when you
don't have to ride as far to the right as practicable. Besides left
turns that includes right turns, substandard width lanes, debris,
potholes etc.
bjorn
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 06:03:45
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 2, 12:57 am, r15...@aol.com wrote:
>
> -- Experienced cyclists have dramatically lower accident
> rates than beginners.
Dumbass -
I don't know about that. Surely by accidents per hour of exposure, but
in the case of racing and otherwise, experienced cyclists usually have
many more hours of exposure.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 00:57:42
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Dumbass -
>
>
> It really doesn't have much to do with being an "experienced" cyclist.
> I've seen a Cat1 do a U-turn right in front of a minivan. Luckily, he
> cleared just before the minivan and him intersected. A fraction of a
> second later . . . Dude wasn't thinking.
>
> Everyone brainfarts sometimes. Shit happens.
Dumbass,
You are correct that shit happens and everyone
brainfarts sometimes. The same crap could
happen to any one of us. But
-- Experienced cyclists have dramatically lower accident
rates than beginners.
-- Just because someone is Cat1 doesn't mean
they're hugely experienced. The most experienced riders
in this regard aren't racers at all but messengers who
ride six hours each weekday year-round in heavy traffic, not
on training roads.
-- The brainfart in this case could easily have been the
driver's, who knows.
Robert
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 22:39:31
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 1, 4:30 pm, r15...@aol.com wrote:
> Phil Holman wrote:
> > That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
> > get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
> > circumstances led to this.
>
> It is odd/rare, but it does happen, and
> tends to be deadly when it does.
>
> Who knows what the circumstances were --
> fiddling with the radio dial, looking in the
> rearview, looking for his phone... At those
> speeds just a second or two of inattention
> is all it takes. Or maybe the cyclist really
> did 'swerve' left in front of the car as the
> report states. However it happened, it's a
> shitty way to go.
Dumbass -
It really doesn't have much to do with being an "experienced" cyclist.
I've seen a Cat1 do a U-turn right in front of a minivan. Luckily, he
cleared just before the minivan and him intersected. A fraction of a
second later . . . Dude wasn't thinking.
Everyone brainfarts sometimes. Shit happens.
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 22:36:16
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 1, 3:59 pm, ST <n...@no.com > wrote:
> On 4/1/07 3:17 PM, in article
> 1175465866.817995.68...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Kurgan Gringioni"
>
>
>
>
>
> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 1, 12:54 pm, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
> >> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1175448010.230569.114670@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a
> >>>> short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>
> >>>> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or
> >>>> shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>
> >>>> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd
> >>>> Muenzer said.
>
> >>> Should read "left-turn lane?"
>
> >> That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
> >> get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
> >> circumstances led to this.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Probably didn't look or didn't see it if he did.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> There were 2 other accidents in the same area within minutes of this......
>
> http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/31/news/inland/poway/17_38_16...
> .txt
>
> It is a nasty area to ride regardless at that time because the drivers are
> racing to get home after work. And your succinct kind words regarding a
> local racing cyclist are just as appreciated as all your other helpful
> comments.......
Dumbass -
I didn't say anything good or bad about him.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:05:48
From: mal
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Dumbarsehole
You said he was negligent in paying attention.
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 16:30:36
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Phil Holman wrote:
> That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
> get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
> circumstances led to this.
It is odd/rare, but it does happen, and
tends to be deadly when it does.
Who knows what the circumstances were --
fiddling with the radio dial, looking in the
rearview, looking for his phone... At those
speeds just a second or two of inattention
is all it takes. Or maybe the cyclist really
did 'swerve' left in front of the car as the
report states. However it happened, it's a
shitty way to go.
Robert
|
| |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 15:17:46
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On Apr 1, 12:54 pm, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice > wrote:
> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175448010.230569.114670@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a
> >> short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>
> >> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or
> >> shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>
> >> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd
> >> Muenzer said.
>
> > Should read "left-turn lane?"
>
> That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
> get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
> circumstances led to this.
Dumbass -
Probably didn't look or didn't see it if he did.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 07:30:59
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
* "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com > a écrit
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Probably didn't look or didn't see it if he did.
The problem is, Kurgan, that cars can appear from "nowhere" pretty
fast, particularly at tricky intersections
There's a pretty tricky one that I have to navigate if I want to head
up into the hills or mountains as opposed to battling dumb tourists
along the coast road; the main east-west autoroute. Compounding the
problem is the fact that it's a reasonably steep uphill approach which
means a cyclist has to be very careful picking the precise moment to
make the crossing.
But luckily by detouring some 4 klicks I can cross it using a bridge as
opposed to dicing with death crossing the feeder lanes
My condolances to the rider, his family and friends.
--
Le vent à Dos
Davey Crockett [No 4Q to reply]
Votez Le Pen
Defeat the traitors Sarkozy, Royale and Marie-George Buffet
|
| | |
Date: 01 Apr 2007 20:47:38
From: Jim S
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
how can I block this idiot....?
"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175465866.817995.68340@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 1, 12:54 pm, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
>> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1175448010.230569.114670@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a
>> >> short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>>
>> >> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or
>> >> shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>>
>> >> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd
>> >> Muenzer said.
>>
>> > Should read "left-turn lane?"
>>
>> That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
>> get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
>> circumstances led to this.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Probably didn't look or didn't see it if he did.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Apr 2007 07:41:04
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
* "Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net > a écrit
> how can I block this idiot....?
Put him in your "KillFile"
But blocking posters is the chickenshit route
Everyone has pertinent comments that should be heard
--
Le vent à Dos
Davey Crockett [No 4Q to reply]
--
Always Fly Yorkshire Airlines
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3610949054709282698
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 00:03:38
From: Jim S
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Kurgan hasn't had a pertinent comment in 10 years.
"Davey Crockett" <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com > wrote in message
news:877isvpc3z.fsf@azurservers.com...
>
> * "Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net> a écrit
>> how can I block this idiot....?
>
> Put him in your "KillFile"
>
> But blocking posters is the chickenshit route
>
> Everyone has pertinent comments that should be heard
>
> --
> Le vent à Dos
> Davey Crockett [No 4Q to reply]
> --
> Always Fly Yorkshire Airlines
> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3610949054709282698
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 04:31:51
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
"Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:p5CdnRmBNeGAT4zbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@comcast.com...
> Kurgan hasn't had a pertinent comment in 10 years.
But he's had diarhea that entire time. Aren't you interested?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 06:59:23
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On 4/2/07 10:31 PM, in article
XMkQh.17719$PL.12896@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
<cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:p5CdnRmBNeGAT4zbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Kurgan hasn't had a pertinent comment in 10 years.
>
> But he's had diarhea that entire time. Aren't you interested?
And then he wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1175573874.906925.71110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
>
> You're so full of crap you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.
What I'm trying to figure out is how Kurgan could STILL be full of crap if
he's had diarrhea for the past 10 years.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 23:07:02
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
In article <C237ABCB.5EEEB%stevens@veloworks.com >,
"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote:
> On 4/2/07 10:31 PM, in article
> XMkQh.17719$PL.12896@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > "Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:p5CdnRmBNeGAT4zbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> Kurgan hasn't had a pertinent comment in 10 years.
> >
> > But he's had diarhea that entire time. Aren't you interested?
>
> And then he wrote:
>
> > "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1175573874.906925.71110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >> Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
> >
> > You're so full of crap you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.
>
>
>
> What I'm trying to figure out is how Kurgan could STILL be full of crap if
> he's had diarrhea for the past 10 years.
Aren't you forgetting that the person who says that is rbr's own special "black
is white and up is down" guy?
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 07:18:07
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> On 4/2/07 10:31 PM, in article
> XMkQh.17719$PL.12896@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Jim S" <velojim@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:p5CdnRmBNeGAT4zbnZ2dnUVZ_o-knZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Kurgan hasn't had a pertinent comment in 10 years.
>> But he's had diarhea that entire time. Aren't you interested?
>
> And then he wrote:
>
>> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1175573874.906925.71110@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> Semantics. The experienced racers I knew seemed to spend just as much
>> You're so full of crap you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.
>
>
>
> What I'm trying to figure out is how Kurgan could STILL be full of crap if
> he's had diarrhea for the past 10 years.
10 years is good. GW is only at 6+.
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Date: 01 Apr 2007 22:59:55
From: ST
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On 4/1/07 3:17 PM, in article
1175465866.817995.68340@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com, "Kurgan Gringioni"
<kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 1, 12:54 pm, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:
>> <r15...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1175448010.230569.114670@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a
>>>> short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>>
>>>> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or
>>>> shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>>
>>>> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd
>>>> Muenzer said.
>>
>>> Should read "left-turn lane?"
>>
>> That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
>> get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
>> circumstances led to this.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Probably didn't look or didn't see it if he did.
>
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
>
There were 2 other accidents in the same area within minutes of this......
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/31/news/inland/poway/17_38_163_30_07
.txt
It is a nasty area to ride regardless at that time because the drivers are
racing to get home after work. And your succinct kind words regarding a
local racing cyclist are just as appreciated as all your other helpful
comments.......
http://www.760kfmb.com/news/story.php?id=85505
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Date: 01 Apr 2007 10:20:10
From:
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>
> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>
> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd Muenzer said.
Should read "left-turn lane?"
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Date: 01 Apr 2007 11:54:19
From: Phil Holman
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
<r15757@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1175448010.230569.114670@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a
>> short distance south of the "T" intersection.
>>
>> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or
>> shoulder and veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>>
>> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd
>> Muenzer said.
>
>
> Should read "left-turn lane?"
>
That's what I thought. Also, it seems odd for an experienced cyclist to
get hit from behind (I assume) in this situation. I wonder what
circumstances led to this.
Phil H
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Date: 01 Apr 2007 15:33:44
From: ST
Subject: Re: San Diego Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
|
On 3/31/07 11:40 PM, in article a622f3d2783859e239a46f47c84b260e@dizum.com,
"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com > wrote:
> "This happened at the Poway Road at Highway 67. I've heard of this cyclists
> name, and seen him around
> on his bike, that intersection is one of the most dangerous ones in the
> county.
> God be with you riders, be careful."
>
>
> http://www.10news.com/news/11459268/detail.html?rss=sand&psp=news#
>
> http://www.usacycling.org/results/index.php?permit=2006-611
>
> Cyclist dies after crash with car on Route 67
>
> UNION-TRIBUNE
>
> March 31, 2007
>
> POWAY: A bicyclist was killed in a collision with a car yesterday on state
> Route 67 at Poway Road during rush hour.
>
> The cyclist was identified by the county Medical Examiner's Office as attorney
> Marc Carpenter, 46, of Lakeside.
>
> Sheriff's officials said the accident occurred about 5:10 p.m. a short
> distance south of the “T” intersection.
>
> Carpenter was pedaling north on Route 67 in the right lane or shoulder and
> veered into the left lane, trying to reach
>
> the right-turn lane onto westbound Poway Road, sheriff's Sgt. Lloyd Muenzer
> said.
>
> Muenzer said Carpenter collided with a Nissan Sentra in the left lane, also
> going north. The impact knocked Carpenter
>
> onto the roof and windshield of the car, then onto the pavement north of the
> intersection. He was declared dead at the
>
> scene.
>
> The Sentra driver, a 47-year-old Ramona man, was not injured.
>
> Authorities blocked Poway Road at Espola Road and northbound Route 67 at
> Scripps Poway Parkway until about 8 p.m. to
>
> investigate.
>
>
(http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20070331-9999-1m31pubsafe.html >
)
>
He was a long time member of our bike club. I knew him. He was a good guy
and experienced cyclist.
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