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Main
Date: 26 May 2007 18:49:15
From: Keith
Subject: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
1995 season and Once connection.
It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
96".
Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
"inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
that changed with EPO.
Any ideas ?
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Date: 31 May 2007 14:03:14
From:
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 9:49 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> 96".
>
> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> that changed with EPO.
>
> Any ideas ?
I have a tangential question - when was EPO banned? Was it ever
legal? Did anyone ever race with its aid legally?
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Date: 31 May 2007 23:24:35
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
<sonarspam@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180645394.242839.111640@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> I have a tangential question - when was EPO banned? Was it ever
> legal? Did anyone ever race with its aid legally?
That isn't the way the regulations work. It is either illegal or
uncontrolled.
EPO was uncontrolled until 1990 when the IOC passed regulations against its
use. The problem was that there was no way of testing for it until circa
2000. And believe me, the present test for rhEPO isn't something that your
local piss lab can accurately achieve. And I'm getting the idea that LNDD is
little better than your local piss lab.
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Date: 31 May 2007 03:35:04
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On 29 mei, 12:48, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
> "Kenny" <gelei2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180419753.134332.259500@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> (snip)
>
>
>
> > Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
> > against Bauer..
>
> No, he didn't .
>
> Benjo
?? He admitted it a few year ago.
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Date: 31 May 2007 06:47:28
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On 31 May 2007 03:35:04 -0700, Kenny <gelei2001@hotmail.com > wrote:
>On 29 mei, 12:48, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>> "Kenny" <gelei2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1180419753.134332.259500@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>
>>
>> > Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
>> > against Bauer..
>>
>> No, he didn't .
>>
>> Benjo
>
>?? He admitted it a few year ago.
I thought he admitted to using EPO during a small portion of his
career, but that didn't cover his win in Paris-Roubaix.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 31 May 2007 15:37:11
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:qs9t53dnfhc9jn2g04mg608jbkm8sj67j4@4ax.com...
> On 31 May 2007 03:35:04 -0700, Kenny <gelei2001@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 29 mei, 12:48, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>> "Kenny" <gelei2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:1180419753.134332.259500@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
>>> > against Bauer..
>>>
>>> No, he didn't .
>>>
>>> Benjo
>>
>>?? He admitted it a few year ago.
>
> I thought he admitted to using EPO during a small portion of his
> career, but that didn't cover his win in Paris-Roubaix.
Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc., all
the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have had
sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in the
Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
Benjo
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Date: 31 May 2007 23:11:21
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in message
news:5c81c4F2v0v6kU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
> career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
> when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc.,
> all the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have
> had sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in
> the Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
> Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
Possible Side Effects of EPO:
The amount of erythropoietin that occurs naturally in the body is very
small. When erythropoietin injections are given, the amount in the body
increases greatly. For this reason it causes side effects, even though it is
a naturally occurring substance. The side effects are not usually severe
however. People react to drugs in different ways, so it is not possible to
predict who is going to have side effects or which they will have. The most
common side effects are listed below.
If you notice any effects which you think may be due to the drug, but which
are not listed here, please discuss them with your doctor or nurse.
Flu-like symptoms Some people have flu-like symptoms, such as joint pains,
weakness, dizziness and tiredness. These are more likely to occur at the
start of your treatment. Your doctor may prescribe a painkiller, such as
paracetamol, to help with these symptoms.
Headaches Some people may develop severe headaches, although this is rare.
Let your nurse or doctor know if you develop this side effect.
High blood pressure can occur Your doctor will closely monitor your blood
pressure while you are receiving erythropoietin. Let your doctor know if you
take medication for high blood pressure.
Skin irritation may occur at the injection site This can be reduced by
giving the injection in different places.
Skin rash You may develop a skin rash, which may be itchy.
Anyone willing to bet that Zabel's blood pressure didn't skyrocket?
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Date: 31 May 2007 18:15:35
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:37:11 +0200, "benjo maso"
<benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
>Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
>career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
>when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc., all
>the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have had
>sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in the
>Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
>Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
I believe Planckaert about EPO because, IIRC, he admitted it (or more
accurately) just said it without any particular pressure to do so and
was surprised by the uproar.
I'm not saying he didn't use other drugs in this career, but just the
way he described EPO didn't sound like a big thing to him that he felt
the need to mitigate or hide.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
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Date: 31 May 2007 23:17:04
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote in message
news:g5iu53591t64f9ugh2sjg67s6j294srl4u@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:37:11 +0200, "benjo maso"
> <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>>Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
>>career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
>>when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc.,
>>all
>>the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have had
>>sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in the
>>Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
>>Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
>
> I believe Planckaert about EPO because, IIRC, he admitted it (or more
> accurately) just said it without any particular pressure to do so and
> was surprised by the uproar.
>
> I'm not saying he didn't use other drugs in this career, but just the
> way he described EPO didn't sound like a big thing to him that he felt
> the need to mitigate or hide.
EPO causes a higher than "normal" hematocrit. I put that in quotes because
you would normally use EPO to return your hematocrit to normal levels after
things like chemotherapy and the like. Since they put a hematocrit max level
at 50% I don't think that EPO is having any effect other than speeding
recovery from the RBC killing caused by riding near max over extended
periods. This causes the blood to carry nothing but oxygen and stops it
delivering glycogen to the muscles and brain. This is why you can black out.
With so much CO2 in the blood RBC's die off and hematocrit drops.
Now here's the tricky part. If you ALLOW EPO for recovery purposes, you then
make it MANDATORY because those not willing to use it would be at a distinct
disadvantage. That's why you cannot condone the use of drugs even for
purposes of recovery only.
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Date: 31 May 2007 10:17:20
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:37:11 +0200, "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
>
>"John Forrest Tomlinson" <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote in message
>news:qs9t53dnfhc9jn2g04mg608jbkm8sj67j4@4ax.com...
>> On 31 May 2007 03:35:04 -0700, Kenny <gelei2001@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 29 mei, 12:48, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>>> "Kenny" <gelei2...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1180419753.134332.259500@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> (snip)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
>>>> > against Bauer..
>>>>
>>>> No, he didn't .
>>>>
>>>> Benjo
>>>
>>>?? He admitted it a few year ago.
>>
>> I thought he admitted to using EPO during a small portion of his
>> career, but that didn't cover his win in Paris-Roubaix.
>
>
>Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
>career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
>when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc., all
>the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have had
>sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in the
>Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
>Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
>
>Benjo
In another context it was learned a long time ago that leaving a few heretics
around was less bad than having an inquisition.
Ron
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Date: 31 May 2007 16:55:08
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <90mt539jaebjcl2ftq61g6g0q1tc2utegj@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 31 May 2007 15:37:11 +0200, "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote:
> >Exactly. And he said he had used it only in 1991, the last year of his
> >career when he didn't win a single race. Strange, riders never seem to win
> >when they use doping. Brochard admitted that he had used EPO, hGh, etc., all
> >the time, except when he became world champion. Basso admitted to have had
> >sinful thoughts, but not when he won the Giro. Zabel only used EPO in the
> >Tour - and it didn't even work - but not the four times he won
> >Milan-Sanremo. And there are many more examples....
> In another context it was learned a long time ago that leaving a few heretics
> around was less bad than having an inquisition.
Unless you'd already gotten fitted for the black hood.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| |
Date: 29 May 2007 03:26:37
From: Tuschinski
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 28, 4:46 pm, Bob De Jonge <judi...@mac.com > wrote:
> I would disagree. The general knowledge is that LeMond, and even Boyer
> before him, went to Europe with a clean/fresh perspective. The European
> cycling establishment could very well have been into whatever chemicals
> enhanced performance in that era, but I think the US cyclists were much m=
ore
> na=EFve. Hence it took an exceptional naturally gifted athlete such as L=
eMond
> to make an impression. There was a lot of just plain hard racing that was
> making the Euro's much better as well.
The USA was a frontrunner with doping around that time (and yes, other
countries were dirty to, no pointing fingers). To portray the American
Racers as Naive is Naive indeed.
> No, I think maybe Coffee abuse was near the top of the chain for chemical
> abuse in those days. Tommy Simpson, of course, was an exception. There
> were probably some others not caught, but just watching LeMond and how he
> had to really dose his efforts to win his tours, just leaves an impression
> of natural racing.
It does? If we look at Jan Ulrich and lance they had a similar "One
month a year" schedule. If anything his out of competition preparation
has all the headroom needed to wriggle in muscle enhancers as steroids
(no proof ofc, but the opportunity was there)
> My opinion still remains we saw the beginning of the juiced era with mode=
rn
> drugs when Indurain went from a non-finisher to champ in 2 years, 1989 -
> 1991.
>
Errr... and you base his non-finishing on what????
FYI, Miguel was billeted as a big star from his first year (Winner of
the Tour L'Avenir), someone who was purposefully brought slowly. Not
just insiders, also public cyling magazines had lauded him as a very
likely future Tour-Winner. Wich if you look at his Palmares was rather
obvious:
86 Tour L'Avenir
88 Tour De Catlonya
89 Paris Nice/Criterium International
90 San Sebastian, National Title, Paris Nice,
91 Tour de Catalunya, 3rd at worlds
92- > Big Mig!
Miguel has been brought in the shadow of Delgado, but the cylcing
world was very aware that he was coming.
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| |
Date: 28 May 2007 23:22:33
From: Kenny
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On 26 mei, 20:02, Mike Owens <mowen...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> > TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> > question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> > Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> > Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> > 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> > It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> > Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> > Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> > time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> > 96".
>
> > Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> > taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> > "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> > that changed with EPO.
>
> > Any ideas ?
>
> Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
> Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
> soon after it got to market in 88ish.
> -Mike
> -Mike- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
against Bauer...
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| | |
Date: 29 May 2007 12:48:14
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Kenny" <gelei2001@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180419753.134332.259500@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
(snip)
>
> Eddy Planckaert admitted winning Paris-Roubaix on EPO. You know,
> against Bauer..
No, he didn't .
Benjo
|
| |
Date: 28 May 2007 14:37:42
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 27, 9:54 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> > drugs.
>
> > Benjo
>
> Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
>
> Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
> nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
> so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
Dumbass,
http://www.velopress.com/cycling_history.php?id=36
"The Giro d'Italia: Coppi versus Bartali at the
1949 Tour of Italy," by Dino Buzzati.
"And if any of you suffering the pains of old age thinks
you can be consoled by a comparison with Bartali, you are
mistaken. Mr. Gino Bartali is not old, nor is he discouraged
or sad. And he is too sure of himself to offer excuses.
This morning someone said to him: 'Tell me, did you
puncture two or three times?' He replied: 'Punctured?
We never puncture.'"
It's not a biography. Neither is "De Renner" a biography
of Tim Krabbe. So who needs biography? If you don't
go get this book, Bob Schwartz and I will come to your
house in the middle of the night and take away your
dog's Clenbuterol.
Ben
|
| | |
Date: 28 May 2007 15:43:12
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <1180388261.909343.165320@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
> On May 27, 9:54 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> > > drugs.
> >
> > > Benjo
> >
> > Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
> >
> > Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
> > nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
> > so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> http://www.velopress.com/cycling_history.php?id=36
>
> "The Giro d'Italia: Coppi versus Bartali at the
> 1949 Tour of Italy," by Dino Buzzati.
>
> "And if any of you suffering the pains of old age thinks
> you can be consoled by a comparison with Bartali, you are
> mistaken. Mr. Gino Bartali is not old, nor is he discouraged
> or sad. And he is too sure of himself to offer excuses.
> This morning someone said to him: 'Tell me, did you
> puncture two or three times?' He replied: 'Punctured?
> We never puncture.'"
>
> It's not a biography. Neither is "De Renner" a biography
> of Tim Krabbe. So who needs biography? If you don't
> go get this book, Bob Schwartz and I will come to your
> house in the middle of the night and take away your
> dog's Clenbuterol.
Repo victim: Are you going to give me my car or do I got to go to your house and
shove your dog's head down the toilet.
From Repo Man, of course.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2007 00:20:35
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote in message
news:1180388261.909343.165320@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 27, 9:54 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
>> "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>
>> > Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
>> > drugs.
>>
>> > Benjo
>>
>> Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
>>
>> Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
>> nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
>> so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> http://www.velopress.com/cycling_history.php?id=36
>
> "The Giro d'Italia: Coppi versus Bartali at the
> 1949 Tour of Italy," by Dino Buzzati.
>
> "And if any of you suffering the pains of old age thinks
> you can be consoled by a comparison with Bartali, you are
> mistaken. Mr. Gino Bartali is not old, nor is he discouraged
> or sad. And he is too sure of himself to offer excuses.
> This morning someone said to him: 'Tell me, did you
> puncture two or three times?' He replied: 'Punctured?
> We never puncture.'"
Bartali wrote in a copy of a journalist: "It's a very fine book and you can
find many beautiful passages in it. But there are also some falsehoods in
it. For instance, Buzzati wrote that when I punctured and Coppi broke away,
I swore. But that is not true: I never swear! And besides, how could he
know? He followed Coppi!"
> It's not a biography. Neither is "De Renner" a biography
> of Tim Krabbe. So who needs biography? If you don't
> go get this book, Bob Schwartz and I will come to your
> house in the middle of the night and take away your
> dog's Clenbuterol.
Tim Krabbés book had been translated in English and is called "The Rider".
It's a wonderful, one of the best books on cycling I've ever read.
Benjo
|
| | | |
Date: 29 May 2007 01:18:25
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <5c12tjF2u0pskU1@mid.individual.net >,
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
> <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
> news:1180388261.909343.165320@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> > On May 27, 9:54 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> >> "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> >> > drugs.
> >>
> >> > Benjo
> >>
> >> Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
> >>
> >> Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
> >> nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
> >> so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
> >
> > Dumbass,
> >
> > http://www.velopress.com/cycling_history.php?id=36
> >
> > "The Giro d'Italia: Coppi versus Bartali at the
> > 1949 Tour of Italy," by Dino Buzzati.
> > It's not a biography. Neither is "De Renner" a biography
> > of Tim Krabbe. So who needs biography? If you don't
> > go get this book, Bob Schwartz and I will come to your
> > house in the middle of the night and take away your
> > dog's Clenbuterol.
>
> Tim Krabbés book had been translated in English and is called "The Rider".
> It's a wonderful, one of the best books on cycling I've ever read.
>
> Benjo
I concur. I sought it out, and I consider it, in translation, one of the
best books I have ever read.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 28 May 2007 04:44:52
From:
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 27, 8:48 pm, Simon Brooke <s...@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
>
> Three billion dollars - especially at 1990 prices - is a lot of money. But
> considering the rich west alone, there would be tens of millions of
> legitimate clinical cases each year which would benefit. If it cost $100
> for a year's treatment, I could easily see that adding up to $3Bn total.
You guys on NHS have no clue. Epogen costs about $7500/year, and is
usually prescribed to dialysis patients. Procrit and Aranesp are
usually prescribed for cancer patients and costs about twice as much.
Together, Epogen and Aranesp account for about $6 billion/year in
revenues to Amgen. Procrit is a Johnson & Johnson product, and
accounts for maybe another $1 billion.
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 21:24:02
From:
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
coffn...@gmail.com wrote:
SNIP
>
> I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
> sales of three billion?
>
> If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
> athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
> clinical need?
I'm getting envious -- the pro racers are getting the generic EPO, but
according to my HMO
formulary I'd be stuck taking expensive, proprietary ProCrit if my
globometric filtration rate goes bad or my bone marrow decides to skip
red blood cell production because white cells are more fun.
Rleone
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2007 03:14:14
From: Tom Grosman
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
<rleone@hotmail.com > a écrit dans le message de news:
1180326242.192184.100340@r19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 20:12:46
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 27, 3:52 pm, Dan Gregory
<dangreg...@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk > wrote:
> Mark wrote:
> > FWIW....
>
> > EPO was known well before 1988 and had been expressed and purified
> > many years before in numerous laboratories. Amgen (and several other
> > biotechs and pharma) had commenced clinical trials in the early 1980s
> > in various indications (none of which were pro-cycling).
>
> http://www.uchospitals.edu/about/firsts.html
>
> Erythropoeitin
>
> In 1954, Eugene Goldwasser explained the basic principles behind the
> action of erythropoeitin, a hormone that stimulates the production of
> red blood cells. Goldwasser first isolated erythropoeitin in 1977.
<snip >
Dumbass -
Identifying it is one thing. Figuring out how to synthesize it is
another.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 16:23:09
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 2:34 pm, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com > wrote:
> First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
> existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
> red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
> was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
> before it reached Europe, and undoubtedly the U.S. came later.
i first heard of EPO as a cycling performance booster in 1990, when it
was attributed for the death of johannes draaijer :
http://www.riedo.nl/j_draaijer.htm
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 14:05:27
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 27, 3:58 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> Dumbass, we've been through this before: there are more medically
> warranted EPO users in the province of Alberta (population 4 million or
> so) than there are professional bike racers.
> > If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
> > athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
> > clinical need?
>
> Leave Amgen out of this. Even if you think every bike racer on the
> planet is a dirty doper, EPO is still a huge net benefit to humanity.
dumbass,
true. bike fans that think amgen is profiteering from doping bike
racers have no perspective.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/18615114/for/cnbc/
"Aranesp brought in revenue of $4.1 billion for Amgen last year,
accounting for 30 percent of the company's total."
also new blood booster is now available in europe :
http://www.cnbc.com/id/18702180/for/cnbc/
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 13:50:39
From: Mark
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 2:34 pm, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com > wrote:
> [EPO] It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
> was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
> before it reached Europe.
FWIW....
EPO was known well before 1988 and had been expressed and purified
many years before in numerous laboratories. Amgen (and several other
biotechs and pharma) had commenced clinical trials in the early 1980s
in various indications (none of which were pro-cycling).
The FDA approved EPO (rHuEPO) for treatment of anemia in a setting of
end stage renal disease (ESRD) in 1989.
Can you provide some additional background (literature citations) on
the putative Croatia involvement in the development of EPO? I've never
heard this story before and would be interested as I worked at one of
the biotechs that was engaged in the race to commercialize the first
recombinant proteins (EPO, TPA, etc).
Cheers,
Mark
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2007 03:10:13
From: Tom Grosman
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Mark" <twobowlers@aol.com > a écrit dans le message de news:
1180299039.816370.248510@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
|
| | |
Date: 28 May 2007 01:59:04
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Mark" <twobowlers@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1180299039.816370.248510@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 26, 2:34 pm, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>> [EPO] It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
>> was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>> before it reached Europe.
>
>
> FWIW....
>
> EPO was known well before 1988 and had been expressed and purified
> many years before in numerous laboratories. Amgen (and several other
> biotechs and pharma) had commenced clinical trials in the early 1980s
> in various indications (none of which were pro-cycling).
>
> The FDA approved EPO (rHuEPO) for treatment of anemia in a setting of
> end stage renal disease (ESRD) in 1989.
>
> Can you provide some additional background (literature citations) on
> the putative Croatia involvement in the development of EPO? I've never
> heard this story before and would be interested as I worked at one of
> the biotechs that was engaged in the race to commercialize the first
> recombinant proteins (EPO, TPA, etc).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
I wasn't very clear that it was the generic, which I would assume would make
EPOs easier to come by. The URL for that is:
http://www.in-pharmatechnologist.com/news/ng.asp?id=60805-biogeneric-biosimilar-plivaIt's been my observation that as long as a pharmaceutical remainsproprietary, it is more expensive and under tighter control, therefore notas apt to be available for "off label" use. (How's that for a euphemism?)Caroline
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 23:52:43
From: Dan Gregory
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Mark wrote:
> FWIW....
>
> EPO was known well before 1988 and had been expressed and purified
> many years before in numerous laboratories. Amgen (and several other
> biotechs and pharma) had commenced clinical trials in the early 1980s
> in various indications (none of which were pro-cycling).
http://www.uchospitals.edu/about/firsts.html
Erythropoeitin
In 1954, Eugene Goldwasser explained the basic principles behind the
action of erythropoeitin, a hormone that stimulates the production of
red blood cells. Goldwasser first isolated erythropoeitin in 1977. This
hormone has since proved useful in treatment of several forms of anemia,
and is undergoing trials for treatment of sickle cell anemia, AIDS, and
other diseases. It may also prove to be a boon to the blood banking
industry.
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 10:10:43
From:
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> 96".
>
> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> that changed with EPO.
>
> Any ideas ?
The first blood doping for dates back to 1947, according to this
article http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/228/1/1
(scroll way down) and for sporting purposes as early as 1972. So no,
it did not all start with EPO.
The first patent on EPO was issued in 1987, FDA approval in 1989.
>From the Amgen website, the 1989 "product of the year" sent their
sales to $1 billion by 1991, and by the time Bjarne Riis discovered
it, the sales doubled to $2 billion
http://www.amgen.com/about/milestones.html.
The sales went to $3 billion in 1999.
I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
sales of three billion?
If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
clinical need?
|
| | |
Date: 28 May 2007 20:44:35
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
<coffngrl@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180285843.589443.65870@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
> sales of three billion?
>
Since the Italian market for phony prescription Viagra is about 600 million
Euro, I'd say there is a genuine need.
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2007 03:22:15
From: Tom Grosman
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
<coffngrl@gmail.com > a écrit dans le message de news:
1180285843.589443.65870@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 19:58:30
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <1180285843.589443.65870@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
coffngrl@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> > TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> > question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
> >
> > Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> > Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> > 1995 season and Once connection.
> >
> > It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> > Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> > Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> > time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> > 96".
> >
> > Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> > taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> > "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> > that changed with EPO.
> >
> > Any ideas ?
>
>
> The first blood doping for dates back to 1947, according to this
> article http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/228/1/1
> (scroll way down) and for sporting purposes as early as 1972. So no,
> it did not all start with EPO.
>
> The first patent on EPO was issued in 1987, FDA approval in 1989.
> >From the Amgen website, the 1989 "product of the year" sent their
> sales to $1 billion by 1991, and by the time Bjarne Riis discovered
> it, the sales doubled to $2 billion
> http://www.amgen.com/about/milestones.html.
> The sales went to $3 billion in 1999.
>
> I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
> sales of three billion?
Dumbass, we've been through this before: there are more medically
warranted EPO users in the province of Alberta (population 4 million or
so) than there are professional bike racers.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/7155
cb1024a6c882/ed07b699a1c8f5df?lnk=gst&q=alberta+epo&rnum=1#ed07b699a1c8f5
df
> If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
> athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
> clinical need?
Leave Amgen out of this. Even if you think every bike racer on the
planet is a dirty doper, EPO is still a huge net benefit to humanity.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 14:15:38
From: xzzy
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Thevenet was fined for steroids
EPO was developed in 1984 and got out shortly after that.
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 12:12:32
From: ST
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On 5/27/07 10:10 AM, in article
1180285843.589443.65870@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com, "coffngrl@gmail.com"
<coffngrl@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
>> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
>> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>>
>> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
>> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
>> 1995 season and Once connection.
>>
>> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
>> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
>> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
>> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
>> 96".
>>
>> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
>> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
>> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
>> that changed with EPO.
>>
>> Any ideas ?
>
>
> The first blood doping for dates back to 1947, according to this
> article http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/228/1/1
> (scroll way down) and for sporting purposes as early as 1972. So no,
> it did not all start with EPO.
>
> The first patent on EPO was issued in 1987, FDA approval in 1989.
>> From the Amgen website, the 1989 "product of the year" sent their
> sales to $1 billion by 1991, and by the time Bjarne Riis discovered
> it, the sales doubled to $2 billion
> http://www.amgen.com/about/milestones.html.
> The sales went to $3 billion in 1999.
>
> I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
> sales of three billion?
>
> If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
> athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
> clinical need?
>
>
Have you ever heard of the Tour of California sponsored by Amgen???
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 19:48:37
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
in message <1180285843.589443.65870@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
coffngrl@gmail.com ('coffngrl@gmail.com') wrote:
> I wonder, is there enough genuine clinical need for EPO to warrant
> sales of  three billion?
>
> If not, are the pharmaceutical giants complicit in the doping of
> athletes by allowing volumes of sales that they know are outside the
> clinical need?
EPO is a specific for anaemea. So it's useful treatment for cases of
anaemea, liver disease, bone marrow disease, and to help deal with the
side effects of chemo-therapy for cancer. So yes, an awful lot of patients
will benefit from it, and for many of them it will be a life saver.
Three billion dollars - especially at 1990 prices - is a lot of money. But
considering the rich west alone, there would be tens of millions of
legitimate clinical cases each year which would benefit. If it cost $100
for a year's treatment, I could easily see that adding up to $3Bn total.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
The Conservative Party now has the support of a smaller proportion of
the electorate in Scotland than Sinn Fein have in Northern Ireland.
|
| |
Date: 27 May 2007 04:34:59
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Keith wrote:
> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> 96".
>
> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> that changed with EPO.
>
> Any ideas ?
1994, if you look at marathon(running) times pre and post 1994 you
will see a big decrease in times around 1994.
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 21:42:02
From: Hunter
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 12:02 pm, Mike Owens <mowen...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> > TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> > question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> > Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> > Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> > 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> > It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> > Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> > Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> > time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> > 96".
>
> > Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> > taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> > "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> > that changed with EPO.
>
> > Any ideas ?
>
> Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
> Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
> soon after it got to market in 88ish.
> -Mike
> -Mike
Bugno's always been my primo. I can't ever forget his interview in
early 90s, in which the question was "how did you suddenly get so
awesome," and his answer was "my physio discovered a wheat allergy."
Okey doke, dude.
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 08:05:24
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Hunter <thhiii@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Bugno's always been my primo. I can't ever forget his interview in
> early 90s, in which the question was "how did you suddenly get so
> awesome," and his answer was "my physio discovered a wheat allergy."
> Okey doke, dude.
Just like Rominger's doctor, Ferrari, "discovered" that he was
asthmatic.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 18:28:18
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 9:22 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2007 00:13:22 GMT, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com> wrote:
>
> >"Andrew Price" <ajpr...@free.fr> wrote in message
> >news:kdbh53lqhq9kmvmpanqb6hqo28j1ob12uc@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
> >>>into
> >>>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
> >>>of
> >>>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
> >>>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
> >>>before it reached Europe
>
> >> Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
>
> >In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
> >Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
> >Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
> >Europe.)
>
> Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
> independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
> subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).
>
> All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
> ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected by
> Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly Slavic. I
> was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still everywhere.
> Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a large,
> relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to turn and
> all but flee in fear.
>
> But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the world.
> The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was something of
> a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked like a
> cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to toilet
> seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like "works."
> Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
> almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other items to
> the rest of Europe.
>
> Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women I've seen
> anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.
>
> Ron
>
> Ron
>
> Effect pedal demo's up athttp://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Haven't been to Yugoslavia, but the Czechs in particular, coming back
into the European fold and freedom was awesome. Great people, culture
and Prague is incredible.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 17:19:26
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 11:22 am, Dan Gregory
<dangreg...@brakes.palaver.freeserve.co.uk > wrote:
> CowPunk wrote:
> > On May 26, 12:02 pm, Mike Owens <mowen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> >>> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> >>> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
> >>> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> >>> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> >>> 1995 season and Once connection.
> >>> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> >>> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> >>> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> >>> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> >>> 96".
> >>> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> >>> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> >>> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> >>> that changed with EPO.
> >>> Any ideas ?
> >> Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
> >> Bugno or Chiapucci.
>
> Wasn't Claudio using caffeine (now not banned)?
> I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)>> soon after it got to market in 88ish.
> >> -Mike
> >> -Mike
>
> > The Dutch started it.
> > Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
> > blood was too thick?
>
> I thought it was East Germany in the 70s/80s but can't find definitive
> answers ...
Dumbass -
Blood doping, yes. They were the pioneers of the "retro" method later
adopted by Dr. Fuentes et al.
EPO (drug induced blood doping), no. It's an Amgen product. The East
Germans did not develop the process for synthesizing erythropoietin in
a lab.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 17:17:17
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 8:13 pm, "Caroline" <notr...@askforone.com > wrote:
> In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
> Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
> Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
> Europe.)
>
> Caroline
Baltic?
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Date: 26 May 2007 12:20:38
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Keith wrote:
> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> 96".
>
> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> that changed with EPO.
>
> Any ideas ?
Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.
|
| | |
Date: 27 May 2007 01:54:10
From: ST
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On 5/26/07 12:20 PM, in article
ob6dnchnHeobFcXbnZ2dnUVZ_oupnZ2d@comcast.com, "Fred Fredburger"
<Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos > wrote:
> Keith wrote:
>> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
>> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
>> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>>
>> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
>> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
>> 1995 season and Once connection.
>>
>> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
>> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
>> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
>> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
>> 96".
>>
>> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
>> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
>> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
>> that changed with EPO.
>>
>> Any ideas ?
>
> Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
>
> Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
> performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
> and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
> laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
> music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
> distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
> prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.
Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
Lemonade, prepared by Ann Margrock.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/AnnMargrock.jpg/200px-An
nMargrock.jpg
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Date: 27 May 2007 09:29:45
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
ST wrote:
> On 5/26/07 12:20 PM, in article
> ob6dnchnHeobFcXbnZ2dnUVZ_oupnZ2d@comcast.com, "Fred Fredburger"
> <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>> Keith wrote:
>>> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
>>> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
>>> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>>>
>>> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
>>> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
>>> 1995 season and Once connection.
>>>
>>> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
>>> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
>>> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
>>> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
>>> 96".
>>>
>>> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
>>> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
>>> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
>>> that changed with EPO.
>>>
>>> Any ideas ?
>> Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
>>
>> Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
>> performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
>> and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
>> laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
>> music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
>> distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
>> prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.
>
> Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
>
> Lemonade, prepared by Ann Margrock.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/AnnMargrock.jpg/200px-An
> nMargrock.jpg
>
Excellent. Very much in keeping with the "Back in the old days when Men
were Men and cycling was clean and Ann Margret was a hot young cartoon
babysitter for the Flintstones" motif that seems to be all the rage in
RBR these days. I'm pretty sure the "Father Knows Best" reference missed
anyhow. This is a step towards both a more recognizable AND fictitious
delusion. It works.
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Date: 28 May 2007 21:53:17
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 09:29:45 -0700, Fred Fredburger
<Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos > wrote:
>Excellent. Very much in keeping with the "Back in the old days when Men
>were Men and cycling was clean and Ann Margret was a hot young cartoon
>babysitter for the Flintstones" motif that seems to be all the rage in
>RBR these days. I'm pretty sure the "Father Knows Best" reference missed
>anyhow. This is a step towards both a more recognizable AND fictitious
>delusion. It works.
Speak for yourself. I still have a pile of cardigan sweaters that I
had to give up when the wife said I couldn't smoke a pipe in the
house. Of course, that's a bit more 'My Three Sons' than 'Father Knows
Best', by a slim margin.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 28 May 2007 19:51:31
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2007 09:29:45 -0700, Fred Fredburger
> <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>> Excellent. Very much in keeping with the "Back in the old days when Men
>> were Men and cycling was clean and Ann Margret was a hot young cartoon
>> babysitter for the Flintstones" motif that seems to be all the rage in
>> RBR these days. I'm pretty sure the "Father Knows Best" reference missed
>> anyhow. This is a step towards both a more recognizable AND fictitious
>> delusion. It works.
>
> Speak for yourself. I still have a pile of cardigan sweaters that I
> had to give up when the wife said I couldn't smoke a pipe in the
> house. Of course, that's a bit more 'My Three Sons' than 'Father Knows
> Best', by a slim margin.
You're supposed to smoke TOBACCO in a pipe, not cardigan sweaters.
That's probably what your wife was objecting to.
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Date: 27 May 2007 04:11:34
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <C27E32D1.226839%no@no.com >, ST <no@no.com> wrote:
> On 5/26/07 12:20 PM, in article
> ob6dnchnHeobFcXbnZ2dnUVZ_oupnZ2d@comcast.com, "Fred Fredburger"
> <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> > Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
> >
> > Here's the stupidest idea I've heard all day: EPO is the first
> > performance enhancing drug ever invented. Before that everyone was clean
> > and drug free and raced all day long through fields of wildflowers,
> > laughing and singing all the while, in slow motion, while sentimental
> > music played in the background. The DS's drove around in cars
> > distributing oatmeal cookies, home baked by June Cleaver and Lemonade,
> > prepared by Margaret Anderson. There were no commercial breaks either.
>
> Dumbass (and I mean that sincerely),
>
> Lemonade, prepared by Ann Margrock.
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/08/AnnMargrock.jpg/200px-An
> nMargrock.jpg
I'll have what she's having!
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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| |
Date: 26 May 2007 20:33:57
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Keith <nospam@nospam.com > wrote:
> Any ideas ?
perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
Ocana or Van Impe.
We must assume that neither of the following riders won their TDF
with using banned substances: Landis, Armstrong, Pantani, Ulrich, Riis,
Indurain, Roche, Delgardo, Zotemelk, Merckx, Gimondi and Anqetil.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
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Date: 29 May 2007 02:14:57
From: Tom Grosman
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk > a écrit dans le message de
news: l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
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Date: 27 May 2007 19:58:28
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk >, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Any ideas ?
>
> perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
> otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
> Ocana or Van Impe.
I'd say something very different: I'd say there has probably never been
a 'clean' TdF winner, in the sense we're using 'clean' here. Tommy Simpson
died on Mount Ventoux, and it wasn't fruit pastilles he'd been taking.
No-one was surprised.
The practice of bike racers taking performance enhancing substances is a
lot older than the Tour de France; and the early years of the Tour de
France were so tough they make the modern race look like a stroll in the
park. Stages were often twice as long; there was little or no support;
riders were expected to look after their own bikes. They did not ride
those races on a diet of clean lettuce leaves. They certainly used
Peruvian Marching Powder, amphetamines, strychnine, opiates, and a whole
bunch of other stuff.
Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had not
yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has not
used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen him
yet.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars
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Date: 28 May 2007 03:14:43
From: Keith
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
>Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had not
>yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
>No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has not
>used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen him
>yet.
Possibly, but my assumption was that before EPO, all the available
drugs kept them going or gave them a little boost, but didn't allow
inferiori riders to become champs, forcing the champs to follow suit
with EPO.
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Date: 28 May 2007 01:16:17
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:lv0pi4-61b.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
>
>> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Any ideas ?
>>
>> perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
>> otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
>> Ocana or Van Impe.
>
> I'd say something very different: I'd say there has probably never been
> a 'clean' TdF winner, in the sense we're using 'clean' here. Tommy Simpson
> died on Mount Ventoux, and it wasn't fruit pastilles he'd been taking.
> No-one was surprised.
>
> The practice of bike racers taking performance enhancing substances is a
> lot older than the Tour de France; and the early years of the Tour de
> France were so tough they make the modern race look like a stroll in the
> park. Stages were often twice as long; there was little or no support;
> riders were expected to look after their own bikes. They did not ride
> those races on a diet of clean lettuce leaves. They certainly used
> Peruvian Marching Powder, amphetamines, strychnine, opiates, and a whole
> bunch of other stuff.
>
> Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had not
> yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
>
> No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has not
> used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen him
> yet.
Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
drugs.
Benjo
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Date: 28 May 2007 14:46:30
From: Bob De Jonge
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
I would disagree. The general knowledge is that LeMond, and even Boyer
before him, went to Europe with a clean/fresh perspective. The European
cycling establishment could very well have been into whatever chemicals
enhanced performance in that era, but I think the US cyclists were much more
naïve. Hence it took an exceptional naturally gifted athlete such as LeMond
to make an impression. There was a lot of just plain hard racing that was
making the Euro's much better as well.
No, I think maybe Coffee abuse was near the top of the chain for chemical
abuse in those days. Tommy Simpson, of course, was an exception. There
were probably some others not caught, but just watching LeMond and how he
had to really dose his efforts to win his tours, just leaves an impression
of natural racing.
My opinion still remains we saw the beginning of the juiced era with modern
drugs when Indurain went from a non-finisher to champ in 2 years, 1989 -
1991.
On 27/05/07 7:16 PM, in article 5buhpuF2u729pU1@mid.individual.net, "benjo
maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
>
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:lv0pi4-61b.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
>> ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
>>
>>> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any ideas ?
>>>
>>> perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
>>> otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
>>> Ocana or Van Impe.
>>
>> I'd say something very different: I'd say there has probably never been
>> a 'clean' TdF winner, in the sense we're using 'clean' here. Tommy Simpson
>> died on Mount Ventoux, and it wasn't fruit pastilles he'd been taking.
>> No-one was surprised.
>>
>> The practice of bike racers taking performance enhancing substances is a
>> lot older than the Tour de France; and the early years of the Tour de
>> France were so tough they make the modern race look like a stroll in the
>> park. Stages were often twice as long; there was little or no support;
>> riders were expected to look after their own bikes. They did not ride
>> those races on a diet of clean lettuce leaves. They certainly used
>> Peruvian Marching Powder, amphetamines, strychnine, opiates, and a whole
>> bunch of other stuff.
>>
>> Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had not
>> yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
>>
>> No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has not
>> used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen him
>> yet.
>
>
> Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> drugs.
>
> Benjo
>
>
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Date: 28 May 2007 23:47:33
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
in message <C2806381.6D6C%judibob@mac.com >, Bob De Jonge
('judibob@mac.com') wrote:
> I would disagree. The general knowledge is that LeMond, and even Boyer
> before him, went to Europe with a clean/fresh perspective. The European
> cycling establishment could very well have been into whatever chemicals
> enhanced performance in that era, but I think the US cyclists were much
> more naïve.
No, they weren't. The whole US Olympic team was blood doping in 1984. Le
Mond wasn't on that team; he was on the 1980 team but that may have been
before US cycling started systematic blood doping. However, whether or not
Le Mond was blood doping, he emphatically did not come from
a 'fresh/clean' environment. The Americans of the 1980s weren't naive.
They were taking performance enhancement very seriously indeed, and doing
it better than most other nations.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Life would be much easier if I had the source code.
|
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Date: 28 May 2007 20:19:37
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Mon, 28 May 2007 23:47:33 +0100, Simon Brooke
<simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
>The whole US Olympic team was blood doping in 1984.
Not true - it was perhaps most of the team, but not all.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 28 May 2007 04:54:18
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <5buhpuF2u729pU1@mid.individual.net >,
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:lv0pi4-61b.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> > in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> > ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
> >
> >> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
[first clean winner of the Tour]
> > Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had not
> > yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
> >
> > No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has not
> > used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen him
> > yet.
>
>
> Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> drugs.
>
> Benjo
Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
For my part, I would point out that in the early days it was not unusual
for riders to partake of drugs that these days we would expect to harm
their performance.
We're all professionals here,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 May 2007 13:21:36
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote in message
news:rcousine-90F4DD.21541727052007@news.telus.net...
> In article <5buhpuF2u729pU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote:
>
>> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:lv0pi4-61b.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> > in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
>> > ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
>> >
>> >> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> [first clean winner of the Tour]
>
>> > Now, of course, some of them may have been using substances which had
>> > not
>> > yet been banned at the time they took them, but...
>> >
>> > No: I don't know when we will see the first winner of the Tour who has
>> > not
>> > used performance enhancing drugs; but I'm pretty sure we haven't seen
>> > him
>> > yet.
>>
>>
>> Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
>> drugs.
>>
>> Benjo
>
> Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
Perhaps you can, but Bartali won the Tour on lots of coffee, cigarettes,
bistecca fiorentina and a bottle of Chianti at dinner ...
> Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
> nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
> so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
It's a pity my book on the Tour of 1948 has not been translated in English
:-(
> For my part, I would point out that in the early days it was not unusual
> for riders to partake of drugs that these days we would expect to harm
> their performance.
Absolutely. For instance, riders discovered only in the 1920's that
drinking alcohol during the race was perhaps not such a good idea. Of course
they all knew that the stimulating effect did not last long, but they tried
to overcome this by constantly taking new doses. For instance, the racers
of the Alcyon team drank a whole bottle of cognac during Bordeaux-Paris,
augmented by a few glasses of white wine, port, and champagne. Fortunately
the riders of that time seldom entered more than forty races annually, for
otherwise cirrhosis of the liver would surely have wreaked havoc in the
peloton.
Benjo
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 29 May 2007 01:22:18
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
In article <5bvs9tF2tf20tU1@mid.individual.net >,
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote:
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> news:rcousine-90F4DD.21541727052007@news.telus.net...
> > In article <5buhpuF2u729pU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> >> news:lv0pi4-61b.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> >> > in message <l5bmi4-lp8.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk>, Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> >> > ('spam@reippuert.dk') wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> >
> > [first clean winner of the Tour]
> >> Even Coppi was convinced that Bartali didn't use performance enhancing
> >> drugs.
> >>
> >> Benjo
> >
> > Hah! You can win the tour on bread and water!
>
>
> Perhaps you can, but Bartali won the Tour on lots of coffee, cigarettes,
> bistecca fiorentina and a bottle of Chianti at dinner ...
LIVEDRUNK endorses all of these practices, except smoking. Kids: don't
smoke, because it kills the taste of good beer.
> > Viva Bartali, my obsessive, imbibing, pious hero. I know him (and the
> > nearly-as-wonderful Coppi) only from Owen Mulholland's _Uphill Battle_,
> > so I suppose it is high time I sought out a better biography or two.
>
> It's a pity my book on the Tour of 1948 has not been translated in English
> :-(
It may be worth learning Dutch to read it.
Oh, who am I kidding? I need to finish my Greek lessons first.
> > For my part, I would point out that in the early days it was not unusual
> > for riders to partake of drugs that these days we would expect to harm
> > their performance.
>
> Absolutely. For instance, riders discovered only in the 1920's that
> drinking alcohol during the race was perhaps not such a good idea. Of course
> they all knew that the stimulating effect did not last long, but they tried
> to overcome this by constantly taking new doses. For instance, the racers
> of the Alcyon team drank a whole bottle of cognac during Bordeaux-Paris,
> augmented by a few glasses of white wine, port, and champagne. Fortunately
> the riders of that time seldom entered more than forty races annually, for
> otherwise cirrhosis of the liver would surely have wreaked havoc in the
> peloton.
Le Tour de LIVEDRUNK!
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | |
Date: 26 May 2007 23:30:33
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Any ideas ?
>
> perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
> otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
> Ocana or Van Impe.
Gino Bartali.
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Date: 26 May 2007 12:32:00
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Morten Reippuert Knudsen wrote:
> Keith <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Any ideas ?
>
> perhaps Lemond or Fignon where clean in one of their victories,
> otherwis i'd say that the latest clean TDF winner must be Thevenet,
> Ocana or Van Impe.
>
> We must assume that neither of the following riders won their TDF
> with using banned substances: Landis, Armstrong, Pantani, Ulrich, Riis,
> Indurain, Roche, Delgardo, Zotemelk, Merckx, Gimondi and Anqetil.
>
The OP assumes that everyone before EPO was clean, so half your list
needs to be proclaimed innocent on that basis.
In the real world, your list is probably short. Many would include
Lemond and his mysterious and miraculous "iron" injections. I'm not sure
that's fair but it's as good a basis as any other.
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Date: 26 May 2007 18:34:18
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
before it reached Europe, and undoubtedly the U.S. came later. BUT! It may
have been "fast rtacked," because it was/is a critical life saving drug in
the cases of severes aneamias, some naturally occuring, some that result
from chemotherapy for cancer treatment.
They were brought into cycling because they are believed to be a "safer" way
to increase the blood's oxygen carrying ability than actual blood doping:
the act of drawing your own blood, centrifuging it, putting it back just
before a race.
Whether using EPO or actually blood doping, there are serious health hazards
in both cases.
The long tradition in cycling was to increase the body's ability to carry
more oxygen in the blood by training at altitude. The higher, the better.
But the benefits are fairly short lived when you go from Colorado's
plus-ten-thousand-feet training grounds to sea level. A few days at best.
The optimum way to gain from altitude is to grow up there so that you have
much larger lungs than the average person, and that *will* serve you well
long term at any altitude.
In the '80's, there was a lot going on in research of ways to enhance
performance through increased ability to perform in an anaerobic state. I
thought one of the more creative -- and thoroughly legal! -- ways was the
Francesco Conconi method, in which you boosted your anareobic threshhold
through a specific training program. It was develped specifically for
Francesco Moser, who set major world track endurance records using it. I
trained a couple of cyclists using it in the late 80s, and it does work.
The problem with it is that once you start regular races where you do go
over your anaerobic threshhold, then the efficacy of the threshhold training
is pretty much a thing of the past. But still, you start a head of the
game.
When you start manipulating the component balance of your blood, such as
incresing the number of red blood cells, you are taking on a whole lot of
heavy risks. To do it without extremely well educated medical direction is
Russian roulette.
For me, it not only is a great danger to the individual, but it's like
cheating on a crossword puzzle. How will you ever know if you could have
done it on your own? And yes, I think the team administrators who push the
damned stuff are the ones who should be gone after, not the cyclists they
push to use them...
Caroline
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Date: 26 May 2007 23:59:56
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com >
wrote:
>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>before it reached Europe
Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
|
| | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 00:13:22
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Andrew Price" <ajprice@free.fr > wrote in message
news:kdbh53lqhq9kmvmpanqb6hqo28j1ob12uc@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
> wrote:
>
>>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
>>into
>>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
>>of
>>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
>>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>>before it reached Europe
>
> Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
Europe.)
Caroline
|
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Date: 27 May 2007 07:56:56
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
Caroline <notreal@askforone.com > wrote:
> In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
> Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
> Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
> Europe.)
Yougoslavia was alliancefree and not a member of the washawa-pagt!
Western Europeans drove Yougaslav cars, used yougoslav refrigurators,
had yougoslav transitor radios and went to Yougoslavia for in their
vacations. - Yougoslavs could go to westerne europe to visit their
freinds and fammily whom had emigrated.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 13:32:04
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk > wrote in message
news:86jni4-7h9.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> Caroline <notreal@askforone.com> wrote:
>
>> In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
>> Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got
>> it?
>> Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
>> Europe.)
>
> Yougoslavia was alliancefree and not a member of the washawa-pagt!
>
> Western Europeans drove Yougaslav cars, used yougoslav refrigurators,
> had yougoslav transitor radios and went to Yougoslavia for in their
> vacations. - Yougoslavs could go to westerne europe to visit their
> freinds and fammily whom had emigrated.
And the Soviet-regime compared the Yougoslav leader marshall Tito from 1948
on more than once unfavorably with Hermann Goering. They were not exactly
friends...
Benjo
|
| | | | |
Date: 26 May 2007 21:22:17
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Sun, 27 May 2007 00:13:22 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com > wrote:
>
>"Andrew Price" <ajprice@free.fr> wrote in message
>news:kdbh53lqhq9kmvmpanqb6hqo28j1ob12uc@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
>>>into
>>>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
>>>of
>>>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
>>>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>>>before it reached Europe
>>
>> Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
>
>In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
>Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got it?
>Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
>Europe.)
Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).
All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected by
Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly Slavic. I
was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still everywhere.
Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a large,
relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to turn and
all but flee in fear.
But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the world.
The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was something of
a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked like a
cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to toilet
seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like "works."
Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other items to
the rest of Europe.
Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women I've seen
anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.
Ron
Ron
Effect pedal demo's up at http://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 03:52:12
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:oslh53hlp5ljhas66rf6nttq1gpulne1uj@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 May 2007 00:13:22 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Andrew Price" <ajprice@free.fr> wrote in message
>>news:kdbh53lqhq9kmvmpanqb6hqo28j1ob12uc@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came
>>>>into
>>>>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation
>>>>of
>>>>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when
>>>>Croatia
>>>>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>>>>before it reached Europe
>>>
>>> Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
>>
>>In 1988, Coratia was part of Yugoslavia, and Yugoslavia was part of the
>>Soviet Bloc (communist) countries that did not trade with the rest. Got
>>it?
>>Think "East Germany of the Baltic." (FYI, East Germany is/was also in
>>Europe.)
>
> Actually, Tito, thug and dictator that he was did keep Yugoslavia fairly
> independent from the Soviets. They were still heavily influenced but not
> subjected the way East Germany was (and I think you meant Balkans).
Hey, at least SOMEBODY around here reads minds! Thanks! '-)
>
> All of the old Yugoslavia, all the Balkans, is more Eastern in culture and
> ethnicity than any part of Germany. They had been conquered and subjected
> by
> Islam and the people are, as the name of the country suggests mostly
> Slavic. I
> was there shortly before the break up and Tito's picture was still
> everywhere.
> Dumbass American got an introduction to the world when he found that a
> large,
> relatively well-dressed man pulling out a 35mm camera caused people to
> turn and
> all but flee in fear.
>
> But, yes, they were economically and culturally isolated from most of the
> world.
> The Yugo automobile that was exported as a dirt cheap econobox was
> something of
> a luxury item there. The local cars were all branded Zastava and looked
> like a
> cheaper version of a Fiat 500. Actually almost everything from phones to
> toilet
> seats was branded Zastava, which I think translates to something like
> "works."
> Foreign goods were way overpriced and customer service was hilariously bad
> almost everywhere. They did export some consumer electronics and other
> items to
> the rest of Europe.
>
> Great people, wonderful taste in music and some of the loveliest women
> I've seen
> anywhere. Fascinating corner of the world.
>
> Ron
And some of the most beautiful locations and towns on the whole northern Med
coast! I've always regretted not getting to Dubrovnik before it was
damaged.
Caroline
|
| | | |
Date: 26 May 2007 18:29:20
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On Sat, 26 May 2007 23:59:56 +0200, Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr > wrote:
>On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
>wrote:
>
>>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
>>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
>>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
>>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
>>before it reached Europe
>
>Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
Only sort of. Yeah, yeah, geography and all that. It's still almost not in
Europe.
Ron
|
| | | | |
Date: 27 May 2007 08:03:23
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 23:59:56 +0200, Andrew Price <ajprice@free.fr> wrote:
> >On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:34:18 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>First off, it's probably useful to know what EPO does and when it came into
> >>existence. It's an erythropoeitin that increases the body's formulation of
> >>red blood cells. It was first developed in Croatia in 1988, when Croatia
> >>was still part of the Soviet Bloc, and God only knows how long it took
> >>before it reached Europe
> >
> >Erm... Croatia *is* in Europe.
> Only sort of. Yeah, yeah, geography and all that. It's still almost not in
> Europe.
europe exends to the Ural, Caucasus and the Bosperus strait..
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 11:07:55
From: CowPunk
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 12:02 pm, Mike Owens <mowen...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> > TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> > question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> > Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> > Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> > 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> > It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> > Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> > Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> > time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> > 96".
>
> > Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> > taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> > "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> > that changed with EPO.
>
> > Any ideas ?
>
> Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
> Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
> soon after it got to market in 88ish.
> -Mike
> -Mike
The Dutch started it.
Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
blood was too thick?
|
| | |
Date: 26 May 2007 19:22:43
From: Dan Gregory
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
CowPunk wrote:
> On May 26, 12:02 pm, Mike Owens <mowen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
>>> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
>>> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>>> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
>>> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
>>> 1995 season and Once connection.
>>> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
>>> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
>>> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
>>> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
>>> 96".
>>> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
>>> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
>>> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
>>> that changed with EPO.
>>> Any ideas ?
>> Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
>> Bugno or Chiapucci.
Wasn't Claudio using caffeine (now not banned)?
I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
>> soon after it got to market in 88ish.
>> -Mike
>> -Mike
>
> The Dutch started it.
> Remember the 3 guys who mysteriously died in their sleep because their
> blood was too thick?
>
I thought it was East Germany in the 70s/80s but can't find definitive
answers ...
|
| |
Date: 26 May 2007 11:02:11
From: Mike Owens
Subject: Re: So who started it all with EPO ?
|
On May 26, 12:49 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> Since the general conscensus is that you don't need to dope to win the
> TDF...except if someone else is doping, the really interesting
> question to me is WTF started taking EPO and when ?
>
> Clearly the Gewiss team must have been on EPO as early as 94, Berzin,
> Ugrumov and Riis attesting to that. Jalabert too given his superlative
> 1995 season and Once connection.
>
> It might be easier to figure out who the first TDF winner on EPO was ?
> Counting down from Riis in 1996 that would leave Indurain in 1995.
> Dunno about EPO for him, let's remember what Echevarri said at the
> time that "Indurain was disgusted to see what some guys were taking in
> 96".
>
> Why focus on EPO, well it seems that prior to that the guys were
> taking "mild" drugs to keep going and recuperate faster, and no
> "inferior" rider could use that to challenge the strongest racers,
> that changed with EPO.
>
> Any ideas ?
Ideas only. One of two guys I liked a lot as they animated races -
Bugno or Chiapucci. I have no doubt that it started (small scale?)
soon after it got to market in 88ish.
-Mike
-Mike
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|
