The demise of professional cycling

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Date: 01 May 2007 02:13:11
From:
Subject: The demise of professional cycling

Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
watching the TDF since the early 1980s with Greg Lemond, and I've
traveled to France to see the TDF in person, but the Landis incident
was the final straw that pushed me over the edge into suspecting that
the entire sport is guilty of doping, if not in deed, then by
association. I am extremely disheartened about the seemingly endless
ties of bicycling to drugs, e.g. Landis, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich,
Festina, Pantani, Riis, etc. The stories are just never-ending, and
seem to be getting worse as Puerto expands. For the first time in 20+
years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
is the future of professional cycling?

I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.

Rick H

Date: 07 May 2007 11:18:19
From:
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 1, 3:42 am, <Montesquiou > wrote:
> <agn...@yahoo.com> a =E9crit dans le message de news:
> 1178010791.805356.266...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>

> > Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
> > ...
>
> > I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
> > current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
> > hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.
>
> > Rick H
>
> Agree, Rick.
>
> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
> dopping ?
> We never will know.
> And the cheaters - those who accept drugs for money - want us to clap han=
ds.
>
> Sad, very sad

Basso's apparent admission of guilt/involvement in Puerto is the
latest nail in the coffin.

Rick H

Date: 04 May 2007 07:09:42
From: need more sun
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 3, 7:12 am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Montesquiou wrote:
> > "Howard Kveck" <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> a =E9crit dans le message d=
e news:
> > YOURhoward-B84821.18442701052...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> >> In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4ac...@news.orange.fr>, <Montesquiou>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
> >>> dopping ?
> >>> We never will know.
> >> That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily be
> >> "none" as any that you may be thinking of.
>
> > As I know one of them, I was sure that "none" was not the answer.
> > It happens around 15/16 Y old
>
> He said true champions, not teenage might-have-beens.

Are we still talking about podium girls here, or back to the riders?

Date: 04 May 2007 16:14:48
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Kyle Legate wrote:
>> He said true champions, not teenage might-have-beens.

need more sun wrote:
> Are we still talking about podium girls here, or back to the riders?

Presumably teenage might-have-been podium girls are the ones who had to
be woken up every hour to roll over lest their breast implants suffocate
them.

Date: 03 May 2007 08:55:52
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 3, 9:36 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org > wrote:

> I hope you are humane and warm up your hands first. I am firmly
> against cruelty to podium girls. Which is different than being firmly
> against podium girls.

How do you feel about firm podium girls?

Date: 03 May 2007 23:06:17
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

in message <1178207752.255745.179520@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
derFahrer@gmail.com ('derFahrer@gmail.com') wrote:

> do you feel about firm podium girls?

whenever possible.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

Date: 03 May 2007 12:20:38
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On 3 May 2007 08:55:52 -0700, "derFahrer@gmail.com"
<derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote:

>On May 3, 9:36 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>> I hope you are humane and warm up your hands first. I am firmly
>> against cruelty to podium girls. Which is different than being firmly
>> against podium girls.
>
>How do you feel about firm podium girls?
>
Leaning toward them, as much as possible. And I realize now that my
last sentence could be taken two ways. If you have your choice between
being firmly against a particular podium girl and being firmly against
having podium girls as a concept, I'd lean toward the first. As much
as possible.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 03 May 2007 23:40:30
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote in
news:rb6k331phhjgd1so7fdhnivss9u4ghkpco@4ax.com:

<snip >
> Leaning toward them, as much as possible. And I realize now that my
> last sentence could be taken two ways. If you have your choice between
> being firmly against a particular podium girl and being firmly against
> having podium girls as a concept, I'd lean toward the first. As much
> as possible.

I would think you would stand up straight against the podium girls.

--
Bill Asher

Date: 03 May 2007 08:00:29
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 3, 10:32 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <cavh331cblqgl40q94346h7p09d94gc...@4ax.com>,
> Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 May 2007 12:19:09 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >On May 2, 3:13 pm, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
> > >> >e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
>
> > >> This has taken a nasty turn.
>
> > >> Curtis L. Russell
> > ..
>
> > >So would that be illustrated with a oicture of Britany, Paris,
> > >Lindsay, or Madonna?
> > >Bill C
>
> > Those would cover the 'nasty' part of the equation, unless by
> > 'Britany' you meant the spaniel.
>
> With that spelling, he apparently meant neither.
>
> Recovering English major,
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Spelling is usually OK, typing is horrible, and that's on a good day.
I'd be willing to look up the spelling for the Spaniel, but I really
don't care how the skanks spell it.
Should slow down, and use spell check, but, damn, that ruins the flow
of the conversation for me. Lots of little idiosyncracies that require
the good will of others. I do occasionally cringe at some of it
though. The general level of everyone else's typing, and their
tolerance for my piss poor skills are a pleasant, and much
appreciated, surprise for me.
Bill C

Date: 03 May 2007 13:01:12
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

In article
<1178204429.293688.70180@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote:
> On May 3, 10:32 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca> wrote:
> > In article <cavh331cblqgl40q94346h7p09d94gc...@4ax.com>,
> > Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> > > On 2 May 2007 12:19:09 -0700, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > >On May 2, 3:13 pm, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> >
> > > >> >e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
> >
> > > >> This has taken a nasty turn.
> > > ..
> > > >So would that be illustrated with a oicture of Britany, Paris,
> > > >Lindsay, or Madonna?
> >
> > > Those would cover the 'nasty' part of the equation, unless by
> > > 'Britany' you meant the spaniel.
> >
> > With that spelling, he apparently meant neither.
> >
> > Recovering English major,
>
> Spelling is usually OK, typing is horrible, and that's on a good day.
> I'd be willing to look up the spelling for the Spaniel, but I really
> don't care how the skanks spell it.
> Should slow down, and use spell check, but, damn, that ruins the flow
> of the conversation for me. Lots of little idiosyncracies that require
> the good will of others. I do occasionally cringe at some of it
> though. The general level of everyone else's typing, and their
> tolerance for my piss poor skills are a pleasant, and much
> appreciated, surprise for me.

You misspelled `idiosyncrasies', dumbass.

--
Michael Press

Date: 03 May 2007 22:08:40
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Bill C wrote:
>> Should slow down, and use spell check, but, damn, that ruins the flow
>> of the conversation for me. Lots of little idiosyncracies that require
>> the good will of others.

Michael Press wrote:
> You misspelled `idiosyncrasies', dumbass.

Dumbass,
On rbr we're all idiotsyncratic by definition otherwise we wouldn't be
here.

Date: 04 May 2007 08:31:36
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On Thu, 03 May 2007 22:08:40 +0200, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:

>Bill C wrote:
>>> Should slow down, and use spell check, but, damn, that ruins the flow
>>> of the conversation for me. Lots of little idiosyncracies that require
>>> the good will of others.
>
>Michael Press wrote:
>> You misspelled `idiosyncrasies', dumbass.
>
>Dumbass,
>On rbr we're all idiotsyncratic by definition otherwise we wouldn't be
>here.
>
Nirvana on rbr is the achievement on occasion of idiot synchronicity.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 04 May 2007 23:12:39
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

In article <jcdm33tcepdgcmchjbhbv0ihetf3j856l8@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:

> On Thu, 03 May 2007 22:08:40 +0200, Donald Munro
> <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Bill C wrote:
> >>> Should slow down, and use spell check, but, damn, that ruins the flow
> >>> of the conversation for me. Lots of little idiosyncracies that require
> >>> the good will of others.
> >
> >Michael Press wrote:
> >> You misspelled `idiosyncrasies', dumbass.
> >
> >Dumbass,
> >On rbr we're all idiotsyncratic by definition otherwise we wouldn't be
> >here.
> >
> Nirvana on rbr is the achievement on occasion of idiot synchronicity.

Which is often a case of having all the cranks in line.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 02 May 2007 12:19:09
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 2, 3:13 pm, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org > wrote:

>
> >e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
>
> This has taken a nasty turn.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

So would that be illustrated with a oicture of Britany, Paris,
Lindsay, or Madonna?
Bill C

Date: 02 May 2007 16:07:23
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On 2 May 2007 12:19:09 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote:

>On May 2, 3:13 pm, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> >e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
>>
>> This has taken a nasty turn.
>>
>> Curtis L. Russell
..
>
>So would that be illustrated with a oicture of Britany, Paris,
>Lindsay, or Madonna?
>Bill C

Those would cover the 'nasty' part of the equation, unless by
'Britany' you meant the spaniel.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 03 May 2007 14:32:45
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

In article <cavh331cblqgl40q94346h7p09d94gcn8c@4ax.com >,
Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org > wrote:

> On 2 May 2007 12:19:09 -0700, Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >On May 2, 3:13 pm, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> >e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
> >>
> >> This has taken a nasty turn.
> >>
> >> Curtis L. Russell
> ..
> >
> >So would that be illustrated with a oicture of Britany, Paris,
> >Lindsay, or Madonna?
> >Bill C
>
> Those would cover the 'nasty' part of the equation, unless by
> 'Britany' you meant the spaniel.

With that spelling, he apparently meant neither.

Recovering English major,

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 02 May 2007 10:37:27
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 1, 5:31 am, "derFah...@gmail.com" <derFah...@gmail.com > wrote:

> And actually, if you take the paragraph above and replace
> "professional bicycle racing" with any other organized human endeavor,
> and "performance-enhancing drugs" with another 'cheating' method ...
> you can see that there is nothing unique to bike racing. (e.g, try
> "politics" and "influence peddling")

e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."

Date: 03 May 2007 09:35:19
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

derFah...@gmail.com wrote:
>> And actually, if you take the paragraph above and replace
>> "professional bicycle racing" with any other organized human endeavor,
>> and "performance-enhancing drugs" with another 'cheating' method ...
>> you can see that there is nothing unique to bike racing. (e.g, try
>> "politics" and "influence peddling")

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."

Its a dirty job being the official WADA podium girl breast implant
checker, but somebodies got to do it.

Date: 03 May 2007 08:36:30
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On Thu, 03 May 2007 09:35:19 +0000, Donald Munro
<fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:

>derFah...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> And actually, if you take the paragraph above and replace
>>> "professional bicycle racing" with any other organized human endeavor,
>>> and "performance-enhancing drugs" with another 'cheating' method ...
>>> you can see that there is nothing unique to bike racing. (e.g, try
>>> "politics" and "influence peddling")
>
>SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>> e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
>
>Its a dirty job being the official WADA podium girl breast implant
>checker, but somebodies got to do it.

I hope you are humane and warm up your hands first. I am firmly
against cruelty to podium girls. Which is different than being firmly
against podium girls.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 03 May 2007 23:05:21
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

in message <g7pj33lrgnjgvnsd85dac7b5hl092dgtbk@4ax.com >, Curtis L. Russell
('curtis@md-bicycling.org') wrote:

> On Thu, 03 May 2007 09:35:19 +0000, Donald Munro
> <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>>> e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."
>>
>>Its a dirty job being the official WADA podium girl breast implant
>>checker, but somebodies got to do it.
>
> I hope you are humane and warm up your hands first. I am firmly
> against cruelty to podium girls. Which is different than being firmly
> against podium girls.

I don't mind being held firmly against podium girls...

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

Date: 02 May 2007 14:13:23
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On 2 May 2007 10:37:27 -0700, SLAVE of THE STATE <gwhite@ti.com >
wrote:

>On May 1, 5:31 am, "derFah...@gmail.com" <derFah...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And actually, if you take the paragraph above and replace
>> "professional bicycle racing" with any other organized human endeavor,
>> and "performance-enhancing drugs" with another 'cheating' method ...
>> you can see that there is nothing unique to bike racing. (e.g, try
>> "politics" and "influence peddling")
>
>e.g., "podium girls with breast implants."

This has taken a nasty turn.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 02 May 2007 07:33:18
From: shane
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Whats sad is that this crusade isnt really
cleaning up the sport, just killing the popularity of it,
especially considering the disjointed nature of this "drug war".

the pro tour debacle isnt helping either. I think the
best thing would be for the big tour organizers to break from the UCI,
which has done nothing to protect its image or the riders. It seems
like every other pro sport has been protect their own..

Date: 01 May 2007 19:24:17
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 1, 2:13 am, agn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> For the first time in 20+
> years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
> year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
> are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
> watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
> believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
> is the future of professional cycling?
>
> I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
> current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
> hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.

Look on the bright side. I'm pretty skeptical about
performance enhancing genetic modification in the short
term, I think 0-10 years from now people using gene doping
will as likely hurt themselves as enhance their performance.
However, in 50 years, it will have advanced to the point
that it really works, so when we resume professional bike
racing we won't need ironclad drug testing. Only losers will
be taking drugs. Winners will have been modified from
the chromosomes and mitochondria on up.

There have always been drugs. There will never be
ironclad testing. The problem is, perhaps, drugs getting too
effective and people getting too greedy. I don't see how a
timeout is supposed to help, though.

Ben

Date: 01 May 2007 10:04:40
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Date: 01 May 2007 09:32:32
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On 1 May 2007 02:13:11 -0700, agn742@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
>me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
>permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
>despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
>watching the TDF since the early 1980s with Greg Lemond, and I've
>traveled to France to see the TDF in person, but the Landis incident
>was the final straw that pushed me over the edge into suspecting that
>the entire sport is guilty of doping, if not in deed, then by
>association. I am extremely disheartened about the seemingly endless
>ties of bicycling to drugs, e.g. Landis, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich,
>Festina, Pantani, Riis, etc. The stories are just never-ending, and
>seem to be getting worse as Puerto expands. For the first time in 20+
>years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
>year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
>are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
>watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
>believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
>is the future of professional cycling?
>
>I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
>current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
>hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.
>
>Rick H

Grace and beauty? Which stages are those? We won't concede they
succeed all that well with all the podium girls.

And I started 'watching' (via print) in the Merckx days, and I
remember more than rumors. Even remember someone dying...

The individual stage winners win in a fight or a struggle and the
overall winner has come out of the grinder on top. That's why I watch
the Tours. I'm guessing that the riders that can perform their role on
one day and coast in as part of the train on another probably don't
need drugs to recover. I'm guessing that most of the guys that have to
ride near the front every day are doing something other than sleeping
late on the rest days to recover. Frankly, if it is pretty much the
same for all of that peer group, it doesn't effect my opinion of the
Tour.

OTOH, I admit to a long term corruption. Didn't take drugs myself,
other than the occasional beer, but one day I looked around the bay
and realized that if I turned in every soldier taking drugs to get
through 12 hour days, seven days a week, I wouldn't have anyone to get
the work done. I looked the other way then and have had practice
since. Since the alcoholics were on average the worst and they were
legal, it was easy. Best I remember they were all adults. Best I know,
so are the Tour racers.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 01 May 2007 10:12:12
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On Tue, 01 May 2007 09:32:32 -0500, Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org >
wrote:

>On 1 May 2007 02:13:11 -0700, agn742@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
>>me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
>>permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
>>despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
>>watching the TDF since the early 1980s with Greg Lemond, and I've
>>traveled to France to see the TDF in person, but the Landis incident
>>was the final straw that pushed me over the edge into suspecting that
>>the entire sport is guilty of doping, if not in deed, then by
>>association. I am extremely disheartened about the seemingly endless
>>ties of bicycling to drugs, e.g. Landis, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich,
>>Festina, Pantani, Riis, etc. The stories are just never-ending, and
>>seem to be getting worse as Puerto expands. For the first time in 20+
>>years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
>>year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
>>are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
>>watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
>>believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
>>is the future of professional cycling?
>>
>>I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
>>current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
>>hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.
>>
>>Rick H
>
>Grace and beauty? Which stages are those? We won't concede they
>succeed all that well with all the podium girls.
>
>And I started 'watching' (via print) in the Merckx days, and I
>remember more than rumors. Even remember someone dying...
>
>The individual stage winners win in a fight or a struggle and the
>overall winner has come out of the grinder on top. That's why I watch
>the Tours. I'm guessing that the riders that can perform their role on
>one day and coast in as part of the train on another probably don't
>need drugs to recover. I'm guessing that most of the guys that have to
>ride near the front every day are doing something other than sleeping
>late on the rest days to recover. Frankly, if it is pretty much the
>same for all of that peer group, it doesn't effect my opinion of the
>Tour.
>
>OTOH, I admit to a long term corruption. Didn't take drugs myself,
>other than the occasional beer, but one day I looked around the bay
>and realized that if I turned in every soldier taking drugs to get
>through 12 hour days, seven days a week, I wouldn't have anyone to get
>the work done. I looked the other way then and have had practice
>since. Since the alcoholics were on average the worst and they were
>legal, it was easy. Best I remember they were all adults. Best I know,
>so are the Tour racers.

When I was in the Army I saw a barracks drug bust. The ounce of pot was got. The
fistfull of white crosses ignored. I also remember a squad level mission to
escape the desert we were training in to get enough beer to keep the squad
leader functional.

And yes, everyone there was a grownup and the general outlook was that they
needed to take care of themselves, or not. What pissed people off were things
that'd get someone else hurt.

Ron

Date: 01 May 2007 10:57:59
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On Tue, 01 May 2007 10:12:12 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:

>And yes, everyone there was a grownup and the general outlook was that they
>needed to take care of themselves, or not. What pissed people off were things
>that'd get someone else hurt.

And throwing up in the shower. Pretty much the last thing you need at
4:00am is yesterdays regurgitated beer and whiskey. 'Course everything
but the chunky stuff you could wash down the drain...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 01 May 2007 13:27:16
From: Caroline
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

<agn742@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1178010791.805356.266300@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
> me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
> permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
> despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
> watching the TDF since the early 1980s with Greg Lemond, and I've
> traveled to France to see the TDF in person, but the Landis incident
> was the final straw that pushed me over the edge into suspecting that
> the entire sport is guilty of doping, if not in deed, then by
> association. I am extremely disheartened about the seemingly endless
> ties of bicycling to drugs, e.g. Landis, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich,
> Festina, Pantani, Riis, etc. The stories are just never-ending, and
> seem to be getting worse as Puerto expands. For the first time in 20+
> years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
> year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
> are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
> watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
> believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
> is the future of professional cycling?
>
> I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
> current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
> hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.
>
> Rick H

If you ask me, and no one has, a major part of the problem is that all of
the governing agencies of cycling have preoccupied themselves with drug
testing while, at the same time, waffling on what constitutes illegal blood
doping and what is "good" blood doping. For the life of me I could not
understand why, at the Japanese Olympic Games, IOC and UCI allowed coaches
and countries that could afford it to modify cyclists' quarters to
artificially simulate high altitude living conditions by pumping out a bunch
of air and forcing the athlete's bodies to produce more oxygen carrying
corpuscles than they would if the modifications hadn't been done. That was
clearly artificially modifying performance levels and the only difference
between that and outright blood doping is that it costs a hell of a lot more
money. Why was it allowed? It sent a clear message that SOME kinds of
artificial techniques are okay.

What the governing organizations need to do is put their heads together and
come up with a proactive list of rules for training standards that must be
followed. NO artificial means of enhancing performance through current or
future means. They need to set up a committee to review and approve new
training methods before athletes are involved. And coaches with the "win at
any cost" mentality need to be shipped off to Antarctica to train penguins.

And maybe it's time to resurrect a tradition of the ancient Olympic Games.
Any athlete caught cheating was required (even if it meant a lifetime of
debt) to pay for and erect a life-size statue of himself with his sins
carved in the plinth for all to see. The statues lined the walkway leading
to the sacred tunnel all athletes passed through on their way to the playing
field. It was shame that lasted for centuries, not just a two year
suspension and we're all friends again.

Caroline
Former USCF official

Date: 01 May 2007 13:33:16
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On Tue, 01 May 2007 13:27:16 GMT, "Caroline" <notreal@askforone.com >
wrote:

> It sent a clear message that SOME kinds of
>artificial techniques are okay.

The reality is that almost all forms of training and nutrition for
sport are artificial. So if altitude rooms are OK, then they are not
cheating.

It's not complicated. If the substance is on the list relevant to the
sport, or illegal by law, then using it is cheating. If not, it's
not.

--
JT
****************************
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Date: 01 May 2007 08:33:11
From: doug thomas
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Date: 01 May 2007 05:31:29
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

On May 1, 5:13 am, agn...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
> me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
> permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
> despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
> watching the TDF since the early 1980s ...

It seems to me the difference from the 1980s (or whatever decade you
pick) and now is in how things are being reported in the media.

Media reports are what you're basing your conclusion on, right? If
they reported the whole thing in a different way, you'd likely reach a
different conclusion.

And actually, if you take the paragraph above and replace
"professional bicycle racing" with any other organized human endeavor,
and "performance-enhancing drugs" with another 'cheating' method ...
you can see that there is nothing unique to bike racing. (e.g, try
"politics" and "influence peddling")

Date: 01 May 2007 11:42:04
From:
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

<agn742@yahoo.com > a �crit dans le message de news:
1178010791.805356.266300@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Are we seeing the demise of professional bicycle racing? It seems to
> me as if the entire culture of professional bicycle racing is
> permanently and pervasively polluted with performance-enhancing drugs,
> despite the recent attempts to clean up the sport. I've been a fan
> watching the TDF since the early 1980s with Greg Lemond, and I've
> traveled to France to see the TDF in person, but the Landis incident
> was the final straw that pushed me over the edge into suspecting that
> the entire sport is guilty of doping, if not in deed, then by
> association. I am extremely disheartened about the seemingly endless
> ties of bicycling to drugs, e.g. Landis, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich,
> Festina, Pantani, Riis, etc. The stories are just never-ending, and
> seem to be getting worse as Puerto expands. For the first time in 20+
> years, I cannot bring myself to watch any of the major tours this
> year, Giro/TDF/Vuelta/etc., because I cannot trust that the results
> are clean. If longtime fans like myself are turning away from
> watching cycling - its elegance and beauty as a sport - because they
> believe many if not most of the athletes were/are cheating, then what
> is the future of professional cycling?
>
> I'd advocate freezing the sport for about 50 years, to abolish its
> current drug culture, then starting back up from scratch, with
> hopefully ironclad drug testing by that time.
>
> Rick H
>

Agree, Rick.

How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
dopping ?
We never will know.
And the cheaters - those who accept drugs for money - want us to clap hands.

Sad, very sad

Date: 01 May 2007 18:44:27
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr >, <Montesquiou>
wrote:

> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
> dopping ?
> We never will know.

That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily be
"none" as any that you may be thinking of.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 02 May 2007 07:56:33
From:
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > a �crit dans le message de news:
YOURhoward-B84821.18442701052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, <Montesquiou>
> wrote:
>
>> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
>> dopping ?
>> We never will know.
>
> That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily be
> "none" as any that you may be thinking of.
>

As I know one of them, I was sure that "none" was not the answer.
It happens around 15/16 Y old

> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> Never take a tenant with a monkey.
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 03 May 2007 08:12:04
From: Kyle Legate
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

Montesquiou wrote:
> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
> YOURhoward-B84821.18442701052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>> In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, <Montesquiou>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
>>> dopping ?
>>> We never will know.
>> That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily be
>> "none" as any that you may be thinking of.
>>
>
> As I know one of them, I was sure that "none" was not the answer.
> It happens around 15/16 Y old
>
He said true champions, not teenage might-have-beens.

Date: 02 May 2007 23:26:25
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

In article <59tcpkF2lk1nlU1@mid.individual.net >,
Kyle Legate <legatek@hotmail.com > wrote:

> Montesquiou wrote:
> > "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> a �crit dans le message de
> > news:
> > YOURhoward-B84821.18442701052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> >> In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, <Montesquiou>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted the
> >>> dopping ?
> >>> We never will know.
> >> That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily be
> >> "none" as any that you may be thinking of.
> >>
> >
> > As I know one of them, I was sure that "none" was not the answer.
> > It happens around 15/16 Y old
> >
> He said true champions, not teenage might-have-beens.

That's the point I was making - we don't have any idea if they were
going to be champions until they actually became one.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 03 May 2007 20:58:55
From:
Subject: Re: The demise of professional cycling

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > a �crit dans le message de news:
YOURhoward-57B784.23262502052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <59tcpkF2lk1nlU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Kyle Legate <legatek@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Montesquiou wrote:
>> > "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> a �crit dans le message de
>> > news:
>> > YOURhoward-B84821.18442701052007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>> >> In article <46370b6d$0$5103$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>, <Montesquiou>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> How many true champions left the sport because they never accepted
>> >>> the
>> >>> dopping ?
>> >>> We never will know.
>> >> That's true. But you're forgetting that the answer might as easily
>> >> be
>> >> "none" as any that you may be thinking of.
>> >>
>> >
>> > As I know one of them, I was sure that "none" was not the answer.
>> > It happens around 15/16 Y old
>> >
>> He said true champions, not teenage might-have-beens.
>

Yes, I know, my english is far from perfect.
However, I hope you can understand it, we use in France expressions like "
Champions en herbe, jeunes champions, petits champions, v�ritables
champions" also for to name young sportman.
I am thinking, as an example, to the french swimmer Laure Manaudou.
She was 14 years old when she began to train with Philippe Lucas.
14 years old .... and training because she was a true champion at 14,
winning so many competitions that Lucas convinced his father.

Look in your country and tell me if there is no similar example.

Indeed I agree with those who expressed concern on the lack of similar drug
tests in other sports....

> That's the point I was making - we don't have any idea if they were
> going to be champions until they actually became one.
>
> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> Never take a tenant with a monkey.
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?