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Date: 18 May 2007 09:31:00
From: RonSonic
Subject: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my local paper
continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
Greg LeMond proves himself a hypocrite - simultaineously using his story as a
reason to not hide something, while continuing to actually hide it. He pretty
obviously went to the prosecution to offer his testimony. There really is no
reason for the USADA to have sought him out for a witness otherwise. Unless they
just wanted a big-name, generic whiner to complain about doping.
LeMond's testimony amounts to two things: An extremely low grade of hearsay and
a plausible accusation of disgraceful conduct by a Friend of Floyd's (FoF).
The hearsay evidence is an accusation of a tacit admission. That's weak. Even
weaker is that it doesn't meet the classic rule for hearsay was that it is only
admitted if against interest, as in the case of a conspirator or accessory. As
a substitute for this we are offered a personally embarassing story of childhood
molestation. Just as good in this Oprahfied age.
The moron FoF is another thing entirely. He's lucky to only have been fired and
not punched out in the courtroom.
Perhaps we are witnessing the reason that these hearings are generally private.
Wonder if LeMond would even have shown up for a closed hearing.
Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my fucking lycra.
Ron
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Date: 20 May 2007 07:31:57
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On May 20, 9:46 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
>
> WHY?? Why stop riding a bicycle, something that is so much fun,
> because some idiots choose to make lots of $ by cheating? Why does
> what they do have an effect on you on your bike?? I think Bonds is
> cheating, but I still love baseball. I think most of the pelOton is
> cheating but it's still fun to watch.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Agreed. I don't see where riding which should be fun for itself, and
contributes to fitness, both mental and physical, should be effected
by the top levels of racing. I haven't lost my love of going to the
gym because all the power sports are a cesspool.
This is where I think personal records, or bests really count for a
shitload. When you've got no idea WTF the group you are competing
against is doing, stressing over their results is idiotic. I think
we've covered the fact that people dope for training races, and the
doping for "citizen" events in Europe is well documented. If that's
what people get off on why let it wreck things for you.
If someone is that upset then they could choose not to compete, but
I'd challenge them to find a "clean" sport. I can't think of anything
I haven't heard some sort of doping rumors about except maybe Lawn
Darts and they banned those. I don't consider beer or wine in
conjuction with Bocce or LD doping, maybe just stupid in the latter.
Bill C
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Date: 20 May 2007 06:46:18
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On May 18, 7:31 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my local paper
> continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
>
> Greg LeMond proves himself a hypocrite - simultaineously using his story as a
> reason to not hide something, while continuing to actually hide it. He pretty
> obviously went to the prosecution to offer his testimony. There really is no
> reason for the USADA to have sought him out for a witness otherwise. Unless they
> just wanted a big-name, generic whiner to complain about doping.
>
> LeMond's testimony amounts to two things: An extremely low grade of hearsay and
> a plausible accusation of disgraceful conduct by a Friend of Floyd's (FoF).
>
> The hearsay evidence is an accusation of a tacit admission. That's weak. Even
> weaker is that it doesn't meet the classic rule for hearsay was that it is only
> admitted if against interest, as in the case of a conspirator or accessory. As
> a substitute for this we are offered a personally embarassing story of childhood
> molestation. Just as good in this Oprahfied age.
>
> The moron FoF is another thing entirely. He's lucky to only have been fired and
> not punched out in the courtroom.
>
> Perhaps we are witnessing the reason that these hearings are generally private.
> Wonder if LeMond would even have shown up for a closed hearing.
>
> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my fucking lycra.
>
> Ron
WHY?? Why stop riding a bicycle, something that is so much fun,
because some idiots choose to make lots of $ by cheating? Why does
what they do have an effect on you on your bike?? I think Bonds is
cheating, but I still love baseball. I think most of the pelOton is
cheating but it's still fun to watch.
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Date: 20 May 2007 11:41:46
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On 20 May 2007 06:46:18 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo <peter@vecchios.com >
wrote:
>On May 18, 7:31 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my local paper
>> continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
>> The moron FoF is another thing entirely. He's lucky to only have been fired and
>> not punched out in the courtroom.
>>
>> Perhaps we are witnessing the reason that these hearings are generally private.
>> Wonder if LeMond would even have shown up for a closed hearing.
>>
>> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my fucking lycra.
>>
>> Ron
>
>WHY?? Why stop riding a bicycle, something that is so much fun,
>because some idiots choose to make lots of $ by cheating? Why does
>what they do have an effect on you on your bike?? I think Bonds is
>cheating, but I still love baseball. I think most of the pelOton is
>cheating but it's still fun to watch.
Oh, hell. I'll never stop riding. Or racing even. But I really don't want to be
associated with that stinking disgraceful pile. The low opinion of bike racing
is generally confirmed by what we're seeing here and it disgusts me.
I really don't care what the peloton is taking either. I really don't care if
they're all doped or all completely clean. Here's what is objectionable:
A system that cannot eliminate or reduce doping but can pick out a rider, more
or less at random, and ruin his career for doping. Forcing him to engage lawyers
and other unscrupulous allies and wage total war against the system because the
penalties are so draconian that he has no logical alternative. (At least the
lawyers are smart enough to follow the rules no matter how unscrupulous they
are).
If damn near everyone is doing the same thing, then it just isn't cheating. And
for about a hundred years they've all been doing about the same thing. The
moralists and desk pounders can all join the Dick Pounders and go back to their
happy little Olympic hypocricy with its legacy of class distinction and
"amateurs" who earn more than the professionals. They have no place in a
professional sport.
Baseball hands out 50 game suspensions for a first doping violation. A player
isn't going to spend $2M fighting that and the system isn't going to corrupt
itself to enforce it. Baseball, like other professional sports does not
retroactively change the competition results, either. That's where cycling needs
to look, at other professional sports and how they protect their image and take
effective steps to reduce doping rather than dirty the sport by dragging
themselves through the mud one rider at a time. They need to look to what is
effective instead of what makes dramatic headlines.
Ron
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Date: 21 May 2007 09:19:35
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:41:46 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>Baseball hands out 50 game suspensions for a first doping violation. A player
>isn't going to spend $2M fighting that and the system isn't going to corrupt
>itself to enforce it.
Uh, the other notable difference is that the Players' Union
reflexively challenges most non-minor penalties, using resulting in a
negotiated modification.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 21 May 2007 09:38:16
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On Mon, 21 May 2007 09:19:35 -0500, Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org >
wrote:
>On Sun, 20 May 2007 11:41:46 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Baseball hands out 50 game suspensions for a first doping violation. A player
>>isn't going to spend $2M fighting that and the system isn't going to corrupt
>>itself to enforce it.
>
>Uh, the other notable difference is that the Players' Union
>reflexively challenges most non-minor penalties, using resulting in a
>negotiated modification.
Okay. An organization that looks out for the rider's interests. That's a good
idea. They should look into that.
Ron
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Date: 20 May 2007 17:25:53
From: Mark
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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RonSonic wrote:
> Oh, hell. I'll never stop riding. Or racing even. But I really don't want to be
> associated with that stinking disgraceful pile. The low opinion of bike racing
> is generally confirmed by what we're seeing here and it disgusts me.
>
> I really don't care what the peloton is taking either. I really don't care if
> they're all doped or all completely clean. Here's what is objectionable:
>
> A system that cannot eliminate or reduce doping but can pick out a rider, more
> or less at random, and ruin his career for doping. Forcing him to engage lawyers
> and other unscrupulous allies and wage total war against the system because the
> penalties are so draconian that he has no logical alternative. (At least the
> lawyers are smart enough to follow the rules no matter how unscrupulous they
> are).
and those rules would be...
1) Don't get caught (as non-lawyer Geoghegan did), and
2) See rule #1.
Agree with much of the rest of your post, but finding it hard to get
excited about the pro season this year.
Mark J.
>
> If damn near everyone is doing the same thing, then it just isn't cheating. And
> for about a hundred years they've all been doing about the same thing. The
> moralists and desk pounders can all join the Dick Pounders and go back to their
> happy little Olympic hypocricy with its legacy of class distinction and
> "amateurs" who earn more than the professionals. They have no place in a
> professional sport.
>
> Baseball hands out 50 game suspensions for a first doping violation. A player
> isn't going to spend $2M fighting that and the system isn't going to corrupt
> itself to enforce it. Baseball, like other professional sports does not
> retroactively change the competition results, either. That's where cycling needs
> to look, at other professional sports and how they protect their image and take
> effective steps to reduce doping rather than dirty the sport by dragging
> themselves through the mud one rider at a time. They need to look to what is
> effective instead of what makes dramatic headlines.
>
> Ron
>
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Date: 20 May 2007 21:07:49
From: Kyle Legate
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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RonSonic wrote:
>
> A system that cannot eliminate or reduce doping but can pick out a rider, more
> or less at random, and ruin his career for doping.
The rider has to help them out first by testing positive.
If you don't want to be the random rider, stay off the juice.
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Date: 18 May 2007 21:49:38
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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In article <cs9r43t46tc8ftkq5q10aiq7t98ivpl97m@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my local paper
> continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
They did hit on it on NPR's morning marketplace section today. Diana Nyad:
"Cycling is in a real crisis!"
>
> Greg LeMond proves himself a hypocrite - simultaineously using his story as a
> reason to not hide something, while continuing to actually hide it. He pretty
> obviously went to the prosecution to offer his testimony. There really is no
> reason for the USADA to have sought him out for a witness otherwise. Unless
> they just wanted a big-name, generic whiner to complain about doping.
He's starting to come across as one of those guys who sees a crime getting a lot
of publicity and he shows up to confess - over and over.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 19 May 2007 18:03:49
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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Howard Kveck wrote:
> He's starting to come across as one of those guys who sees a crime getting a lot
> of publicity and he shows up to confess - over and over.
He dislikes people getting a lot of publicity by (allegedly) doping to
do what he did (allegedly) cleanly. Roughly speaking, if true cyclists
of LeMond's era were poets, the current bunch are "poetasters".
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Date: 19 May 2007 19:18:41
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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In article <464e9237$1@news2.actrix.gen.nz >, Stu Fleming <stewart@wic.co.nz> wrote:
> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > He's starting to come across as one of those guys who sees a crime
> > getting a lot
> > of publicity and he shows up to confess - over and over.
>
> He dislikes people getting a lot of publicity by (allegedly) doping to
> do what he did (allegedly) cleanly. Roughly speaking, if true cyclists
> of LeMond's era were poets, the current bunch are "poetasters".
Or "faux-ets"...
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 18 May 2007 12:39:02
From: paolo
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On May 18, 11:37 am, "derFah...@gmail.com" <derFah...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> >> This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
>
> Not possible. Have you seen a picture of her lately?
>
> http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/01/27/1106845967_...
>
> Scary.
If the ProTour riders take enough testosterone, who knows, they could
start to get that look going. What a scary picture!
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Date: 18 May 2007 11:37:54
From: derFahrer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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>> This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
Not possible. Have you seen a picture of her lately?
http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/01/27/1106845967_9907.jpg
Scary.
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Date: 18 May 2007 22:55:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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In article
<1179513474.113508.89010@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
"derFahrer@gmail.com" <derFahrer@gmail.com > wrote:
> >> This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
>
> Not possible. Have you seen a picture of her lately?
>
> http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2005/01/27/1106845967_9907.jpg
At first I thought it had been digitally remixed. Whoa!
--
Michael Press
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Date: 18 May 2007 16:10:43
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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Dans le message de news:cs9r43t46tc8ftkq5q10aiq7t98ivpl97m@4ax.com,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my
> local paper continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
>
> Greg LeMond proves himself a hypocrite - simultaineously using his
> story as a reason to not hide something, while continuing to actually
> hide it. He pretty obviously went to the prosecution to offer his
> testimony. There really is no reason for the USADA to have sought him
> out for a witness otherwise. Unless they just wanted a big-name,
> generic whiner to complain about doping.
You overlook Landis' published comments about the phone conversation ; a
conversation that obviously contained statements by Landis regarding doping.
Take off the blinders.
>
> LeMond's testimony amounts to two things: An extremely low grade of
> hearsay and a plausible accusation of disgraceful conduct by a Friend
> of Floyd's (FoF).
Not hearsay. I can't imagine where the general misunderstanding comes from.
It is NOT hearsay, when you repeat the words of a person which is a
participant in the matter, when the witness is only repeating those words.
It is not a shortened version of "I heard him say."
>
> The hearsay evidence is an accusation of a tacit admission. That's
> weak.
Weight accorded to the testimony, not its admissibility. Landis will have
the perfect chance to testify the opposite.
> Even weaker is that it doesn't meet the classic rule for
> hearsay was that it is only admitted if against interest,
It is not a rule of hearsay evidence. It is simply not hearsay. Buy
another Perry Mason book.
> as in the case of a conspirator or accessory. As a substitute for this
> we are
> offered a personally embarassing story of childhood molestation. Just
> as good in this Oprahfied age.
There is no indication that this subject would have arisen, save the
manager's phone call.
>
> The moron FoF is another thing entirely. He's lucky to only have been
> fired and not punched out in the courtroom.
>
> Perhaps we are witnessing the reason that these hearings are
> generally private. Wonder if LeMond would even have shown up for a
> closed hearing.
It is also not certain that he would have appeared absent a court subpoena.
There is no certainty that such a subpoena would have been sought by USADA.
> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my
> fucking lycra.
Fashion problems are for RBT.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
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Date: 18 May 2007 11:28:25
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On Fri, 18 May 2007 16:10:43 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote:
>Dans le message de news:cs9r43t46tc8ftkq5q10aiq7t98ivpl97m@4ax.com,
>RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> This is the first morning that I have been happy to find that my
>> local paper continues to completely ignoring the Floyd hearing.
>>
>> Greg LeMond proves himself a hypocrite - simultaineously using his
>> story as a reason to not hide something, while continuing to actually
>> hide it. He pretty obviously went to the prosecution to offer his
>> testimony. There really is no reason for the USADA to have sought him
>> out for a witness otherwise. Unless they just wanted a big-name,
>> generic whiner to complain about doping.
>
>You overlook Landis' published comments about the phone conversation ; a
>conversation that obviously contained statements by Landis regarding doping.
>Take off the blinders.
What blinders? This is shitty evidence from a shitty witness about a shitty
situation involving a variety of shitty people in what is rapidly becoming a
shitty sport that is governed by shitty people atop shitty agencies. The only
question remaining is just how shitty Floyd himself is and whether he is
actionably shitty or just makes shitty friends and been the victim of shitty lab
work from a shitty lab.
>> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my
>> fucking lycra.
>
>Fashion problems are for RBT.
My mistake, I shall immediately repost there.
Ron
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Date: 18 May 2007 12:05:54
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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On Fri, 18 May 2007 11:28:25 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>>> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my
>>> fucking lycra.
>>
>>Fashion problems are for RBT.
>
>My mistake, I shall immediately repost there.
OTOH, there are precedents for sunglasses and stupid ass shoes. And
whatever the podium girls are wearing.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 18 May 2007 09:56:07
From: Fred Pan
Subject: Re: This disgraceful pile makes Tanya Harding look classy
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"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:cs9r43t46tc8ftkq5q10aiq7t98ivpl97m@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> Damn if this sordid soap opera doesn't make me want to burn my fucking
> lycra.
>
> Ron
Every time I get done reading an article about it I feel like need to take a
shower. The whole thing is just creepy. But of course it's like a train
wreck you just can't not look.
Fred
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