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Date: 05 Mar 2007 00:15:05
From: Spinners_are_winners
Subject: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
many miles they are pumping out each week.
Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
used his program successfully?
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Date: 07 Mar 2007 23:53:54
From: pen9
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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I used that book. It works. Only one way for you to find out. Do it, do
it NOW. Seriously, it is a great way to train, and it DOES work. Believe
me, Joe Friel doesn't have one of the most referred to books on the ket
for nothing.
"Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evershed@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1173082505.747897.207880@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> many miles they are pumping out each week.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> used his program successfully?
>
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 11:26:04
From:
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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On 5, 3:15 am, "Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evers...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> many miles they are pumping out each week.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> used his program successfully?
Personally I find that using hours versus miles just makes life
easier. Since few of us are pros (let's be honest, how many pros are
posting to this group?) and have day jobs, training time is limited.
I for one want to have some modicum of a social life, so that my days
are not "work, ride, eat, sleep, repeat". By planning my workouts in
hours, I'm (A) able to plan dinners, movies, etc., with friends, and
(B) not stressing about doing X number of miles. Also, I think it's
important to listen to your body, and by not stretching a workout to
fit a pre-determined number of miles on a given day, I find I'm less
likely to force myself into overtraining on any given day.
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 03:38:53
From: Lou D'Amelio
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Brief reply as I have to run to work - riding about 16 years, racing
for 4, 46 y.o. Cat IV on extremely limited time (busy profession -
check a thread from about a year ago on my situation). Despite
significant miles and dedication to the sport, never got beyond the
tail of the 45+ pack. Bought the book, made sense to me. Too time
consuming to plan by hand (and leaves the room for wrong judgments),
so I signed up for trainingpeaks.com, the related website which does
an Annual Training Plan for you.
Since Jan 1, I've gotten faster, stronger, and lighter then ever
significantly. I've just been training with a HRM and not a power
meter. Only one race so far this year, but even without teammates I
was able to make a couple of breaks, cover a couple of others, etc.
Unthinkable last year - it was an accomplishment just to finish at the
tail of the pack. Climbing 2-3 cogs lower on the same hillsin
training. Bottom line - everyone's different, but the emphasis on
skills, recovery, and accountability (recording what you do) has made
a great difference for me.
YMMV.........Lou D'Amelio
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:13:04
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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On 5 2007 00:15:05 -0800, "Spinners_are_winners"
<Sean.Evershed@gmail.com > wrote:
>I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
>emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
>approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
>ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
>many miles they are pumping out each week.
If they only talk about hours with no mention of intensity, they're
not mearuring/planning right.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 05:27:03
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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On 5, 1:15 am, "Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evers...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> many miles they are pumping out each week.
Coffee shop points. Doesn't matter which you use. If you are just
riding for riding, who cares. If you are 'training' for some
specifics, use a coach.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> used his program successfully?
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 13:59:17
From: Bruce Gilbert
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in message
news:1173101222.109501.314380@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
> On 5, 1:15 am, "Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evers...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> > emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> > approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> > ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> > many miles they are pumping out each week.
>
> Coffee shop points. Doesn't matter which you use. If you are just
> riding for riding, who cares. If you are 'training' for some
> specifics, use a coach.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> > used his program successfully?
>
>
Good point Peter. The body cannot discern the difference between time and
miles. The reason coaches set up a program in either miles or time is
because one or the other will work better for the individual customer. As
long as the appropriate exercises are completed for that particular training
session, there is no difference how the length is expressed.
Bruce
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 05:47:20
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Coffee shop points. Doesn't matter which you use. If you are just
> riding for riding, who cares. If you are 'training' for some
> specifics, use a coach.
>> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
>> used his program successfully?
>
>
This is silly. Just because you're training for a specific event, doesn't mean
you need a coach. The whole point of reading the Training Bible is to establish
a personal training program. Plenty of successful riders do so.
Neither miles nor distance are uniquely meaningful. Obviously, if I trackstand,
I add hours, not training. If I'm doing intervals, and warm up 2 hours instead
of 1, then do 10 minutes of intervals, does that increase the value of the
workout by a factor 13/7? Hardly. There's junk miles, and junk hours.
I've never seen a strong argument for preferring hours. The usual argument is
something like "miles in a headwind are worth more than miles w/o wind". Sure.
But the headwind usually comes with a tailwind. And climbing usually comes
with a descent.
So my strong suspicion is either works, if you're consistent.
However, I recommend reading Coggan's "Training and Racing with a Power Meter".
There's other metrics which describe better training load. Friel even did the
introduction, where he indicates this is an advancement on his Training Bible work.
Dan
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 18:37:09
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:45EC1F68.8090507@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m...
>
> This is silly. Just because you're training for a specific event, doesn't
> mean you need a coach. The whole point of reading the Training Bible is
> to establish a personal training program. Plenty of successful riders do
> so.
Most successful amateur riders use this method. Most pros without teams also
use this method. I remember talking to some guys who used to ride around the
country in an old beatup van and hit all the big races and between the three
of them they'd murder the competition and walk away with the purse. It was a
living I suppose but they lived in that van. None of them looked all that
clean let me tell you.
I guess that's sort of what's happening in Europe. Guys like Ludo are all
over the place and don't have any teams so they just smoke the local races.
> However, I recommend reading Coggan's "Training and Racing with a Power
> Meter". There's other metrics which describe better training load. Friel
> even did the introduction, where he indicates this is an advancement on
> his Training Bible work.
My idea is that you train and you get better or you don't get better. If you
get better that's motivation to continue stricter training and if you don't
get better it's motivation to get a job.
EVERYONE will get better by training but those who improve the fastest are
those who find the motivation to continue the challenge. I suppose everyone
also reaches the limits of their ability if they train long and hard enough.
The problem is the horrible feeling of losing that fitness so rapidly when
you slip off of the training regime. It takes so long to achieve fitness and
so little time to lose it that some people just quit riding after they stop
racing for a couple of years.
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 00:23:58
From: Bruce Gilbert
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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>
> EVERYONE will get better by training but those who improve the fastest are
> those who find the motivation to continue the challenge. I suppose
everyone
> also reaches the limits of their ability if they train long and hard
enough.
> The problem is the horrible feeling of losing that fitness so rapidly when
> you slip off of the training regime. It takes so long to achieve fitness
and
> so little time to lose it that some people just quit riding after they
stop
> racing for a couple of years.
>
Before this gets too heated, let me suggest a training pattern that many
successful racers use. It goes like this:
Monday - Recovery
Tuesday - Intervals
Wednesday Intervals
Thursday - Tempo mileage
Friday - rest
Saturday - long group ride or race
Sunday - long group ride or race
During race season there are usually weekly crits. Most places seem to like
Tuesday or Wednesday for some reason. For non-racers the pattern will work
just as well.
For intervals start out with something like three 3 minute VO2's at 90 - 100
RPM. Use a heart rate monitor to make sure you are doing the correct
intensity. Of course you really need to establish the correct numbers by
pretesting for your actual maximum. The 220 - age is as accurate as any
average guess can be.
Always finish a VO2 workout with an 8 minute lactic acid threshold interval
(Zone 4) (85 -90 RPM)
After a while the VO2's progress to 6 x 4 minutes. Before race season opens,
you need to probably produce 6 x 5 minutes.
Using a wind trainer is the easiest way to gauge progress and the most
dramatic. As you progress, the gear in the back that you select keeps
progressing toward the smallest cog. Fluids are nice but can really beat up
your legs.
There is a tremendous amount of detail and good scientific data that can get
tossed in at any point, but the basic stress pattern I described will be a
good starting point for many folks. Recovery can be built in on any day
other than an interval session. You can even move the days around to suit a
schedule, but that is about the right amount of work for a week.
Bruce
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 00:53:36
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Bruce Gilbert wrote:
>The 220 - age is as accurate as any
> average guess can be.
>
This is not correct. Check the wikipedia page on the subject. All formulas are
poor, but there are better ones than this.
Dan
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 02:15:04
From: Bruce Gilbert
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:kY2Hh.5283$M65.2744@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
> Bruce Gilbert wrote:
> >The 220 - age is as accurate as any
> > average guess can be.
> >
>
>
> This is not correct. Check the wikipedia page on the subject. All
formulas are
> poor, but there are better ones than this.
>
> Dan
Like I said Dan, individual testing is the real answer...
Test correctly and then you have real data.
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 01:23:28
From:
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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On 5, 2:56?am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid > wrote:
> Spinners_are_winners wrote:
> > Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
>
> Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into account
> training intensity.
Well, your beloved intensity doesn't take into account volume, dumbass.
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 19:12:29
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Proper training has to take into account time, intensity on the body
(perhaps measured by power or by heartrate) plus outcomes in the form
of power or speed on the bike.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:17:36
From: Jim Flom
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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<dupedcyclist@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1173086608.807431.246670@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
> On 5, 2:56?am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>> Spinners_are_winners wrote:
>> > Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
>>
>> Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into account
>> training intensity.
>
> Well, your beloved intensity doesn't take into account volume, dumbass.
Friels book includes intensity as a factor of periodization, as in the 2003
edition: pages 94, 121-128, etc.
JF
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:32:00
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Jim Flom wrote:
> <dupedcyclist@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1173086608.807431.246670@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>> On 5, 2:56?am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>> Spinners_are_winners wrote:
>>>> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
>>> Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into account
>>> training intensity.
>> Well, your beloved intensity doesn't take into account volume, dumbass.
>
> Friels book includes intensity as a factor of periodization, as in the 2003
> edition: pages 94, 121-128, etc.
>
Hours + intensity of each segment of a workout is obviously better than distance
alone. But do you record that? I don't. My training diary has "distance" +
"hours" + "intervals" for each workout. If I add a junk hour onto an interval
session, this confounds interpretation of either distance or time, so neither is
a really good metric. On the other hand, junk hours would have little influence
on TSS.
TSS is essentially the same as recording time and intensity for each sampling
interval recorded for a workout (<< 1 minute per interval).
Dan
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 17:56:57
From: Jim Flom
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:kuYGh.1295$uo3.738@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
> Jim Flom wrote:
>> <dupedcyclist@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1173086608.807431.246670@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 5, 2:56?am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Spinners_are_winners wrote:
>>>>> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
>>>> Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into
>>>> account
>>>> training intensity.
>>> Well, your beloved intensity doesn't take into account volume, dumbass.
>>
>> Friels book includes intensity as a factor of periodization, as in the
>> 2003 edition: pages 94, 121-128, etc.
>>
>
> Hours + intensity of each segment of a workout is obviously better than
> distance alone. But do you record that? I don't. My training diary has
> "distance" + "hours" + "intervals" for each workout. If I add a junk hour
> onto an interval session, this confounds interpretation of either distance
> or time, so neither is a really good metric. On the other hand, junk
> hours would have little influence on TSS.
>
> TSS is essentially the same as recording time and intensity for each
> sampling interval recorded for a workout (<< 1 minute per interval).
I was just addressing the OP's question about hours versus miles, that Friel
is more nuanced than that. CyclingPeaks seems to do it all. I was going to
say that it seems to assume a power meter, but the FAQs say a power meter is
unnecessary, at least for a single entry.
For the racer on a budget, and short of Friel's own online training, what's
left? Using Friel's book alone, it looks like intensity would be measured
by perceived exertion. For me it becomes a balance of fun, expense, the
weenie ratio, and time. How much of a data weenie can I afford to be before
it stops being fun?
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 18:18:38
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Jim Flom wrote:
> For the racer on a budget, and short of Friel's own online training, what's
> left? Using Friel's book alone, it looks like intensity would be measured
> by perceived exertion. For me it becomes a balance of fun, expense, the
> weenie ratio, and time. How much of a data weenie can I afford to be before
> it stops being fun?
Well stated. I've always been a fan of "keep it simple".
Allen and Coggan show examples, for example addressing a deficiency in power
over a 3-6 minute span by focusing intervals on that span. But this treatment,
while facilitated with quantitative analysis, was done long before power
recording instruments were available. For example, you do group training rides,
and you find while you can hang on the 20 minute climb, you get dumped on the 4
minute climb, so you do more 4 minute climb repeats... you don't need log-log
plots for this :).
Dan
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 05:49:45
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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dupedcyclist@aol.com wrote:
> On 5, 2:56?am, "Robert Chung" <m...@address.invalid> wrote:
>> Spinners_are_winners wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
>> Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into account
>> training intensity.
>
> Well, your beloved intensity doesn't take into account volume, dumbass.
>
TSS does:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/defined.asp
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 09:56:08
From: Robert Chung
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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Spinners_are_winners wrote:
> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach?
Neither training hours nor training miles by themselves take into account
training intensity.
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Date: 05 Mar 2007 09:41:09
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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* "Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evershed@gmail.com > a écrit
> I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> many miles they are pumping out each week.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> used his program successfully?
Ever hear of "Junk Miles"
When the wearther is bad you are better off by far to spend the time
on the rollers or in the Gym or watching Pornos
--
Le vent à Dos
Davey Crockett [No 4Q to reply]
The News CNN and SKY won't show you
http://azurservers.com:8080
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Date: 06 Mar 2007 03:02:59
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Training Hours vs Training Miles?
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In article <87y7mcytei.fsf@darkstar.azurservers.com >,
Davey Crockett <daveycrockett4Q@azurservers.com > wrote:
> * "Spinners_are_winners" <Sean.Evershed@gmail.com> a écrit
> > I have started to read Joe Friel's Cyclists Training Bible. In it he
> > emphasises training hours rather than training miles. Adopting this
> > approach for example you aren't conentrating on average speed for your
> > ride. All my cycling buddies on the other hand only talk about how
> > many miles they are pumping out each week.
> >
> > Does anyone have any thoughts/feedback on this approach? Has anyone
> > used his program successfully?
>
> Ever hear of "Junk Miles"
>
> When the wearther is bad you are better off by far to spend the time
> on the rollers or in the Gym or watching Pornos
The usual definition of Junk Miles is the kind of low-intensity,
high-volume stuff that sets you up to be an acceptable triathlete or a
great randonneur.
The more I read, the more the trend is to suggest that intervals work,
and the rest is details. Recovery probably is more important than "base"
or "tempo" or "recovery" or whatever the heck people think they're doing
on a 3 hour ride at 30 km/h.
Some pros (by which I mean Lance) seemed to go in for specific workouts
for improving aerobic capabilities, which may work well for stuff like
the TdF.
For most amateurs, where the goal is to win the World Tuesday Night
Championships and the Tri-Counties Fairly Hilly Road Race (Cat 3), hard
intervals are probably the answer.
Do them up hills, because it seems that most people can more easily go
harder up a hill than on the flats. Don't blow out your knees.
Um, wave hands, yadda yadda, core strength exercises, off-season
weights, stretch after exercise, wait an hour before swimming, that's
about it.
Kraig Willett posted an article a few months back in which he says, in
short, that the 25 hour training weeks of his youth seem to have been a
big waste of time.
His new plan, since he mostly cares about his 20-minute-max power (think
short TT), was to push above that wattage for at least 30-40 minutes a
week in whatever chunks he could (intervals, basically).
http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down.htm
http://www.biketechreview.com/op_ed/stripped_down_2.htm
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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