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Main
Date: 28 May 2007 14:11:24
From: Keith
Subject: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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Sad, sad, sad...if only Ullrich had raced in the 80s...
--------------------------------------------------
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may28news&from=rss
Jef d'Hont, former Team Telekom soigneur, said that he gave Jan
Ullrich an injection of EPO. "I injected him with it one time in
France," the Belgian said in an interview with Bild am Sonntag.
......
d'Hont praised the German rider. "If they had all been clean, then
Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least! I don't know if
the wanted the doping or not. But he did it because everyone was doing
it." He urged Ullrich to confess. "It would be good for him to lay his
cards on the table, too. Then he would feel freer."
........
d'Hont contradicted Bjarne Riis' claim that he introduced the Dane to
EPO. "That is not true. He had pumped himself full before his time at
Telekom. He told me that himself." He contrasted Riis to Ullrich,
saying, "He became famous, because he doped. Otherwise he was just an
average rider."
.......
He wanted to confess earlier, he said. "But my son was still a
soigneur at Team Telekom I didn't want to endanger his position.
Walter Godefroot, the former team manager knew that, too: as long as
my son worked for him, I wouldn't say anything. That's why he hired
him."
.......
"One ampule cost 25 Euros. I gathered the money from the riders, then
gave it to Walter Godefroot." Godefroot has denied being involved in
any way.
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Date: 29 May 2007 04:19:27
From: Tuschinski
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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On May 29, 12:55 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
>
> While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way, he does have a point Keith.
> Exactly what the hell does a errand boy know about relative physical
> conditions?
>
> Would haves and could haves are never weres.
Definitely agreed that "Virtual TdF victories" are not to be taken
seriously.
But what does make his testimonies important is that he is one of
those insiders in the darkest part of Pro-Cycling. On all accounts it
seems perfectly clear that doping transcends teams. Riders went to the
same doctors, got their dope through a select few fellow racers, used
the same trainers. Given that, it seems indeed likely that he does
know what was going on beyond just his own team.
Now I am also pretty convinced that Lance was hermetically shut-off
from prying eyes, so I don't think he will say anything directly on
that subject. And well... with no hard data on Lance: No virtual TdF
victories :)
However, when he comes with his books and his accusations, I do not
doubt that there will be a lot of truth revealed... past experiences
has taught that these "wild stories" from "discredited" racers and
soigneurs were spot on.
Oh... and the Giro is wonderful this year.
Also, the fights in the TdF between Ullie and Lance haven't lost a
smithereen of their appeal to me. Dope doesn't distract my love of the
sport or it's sinners. What does annoy me though is holier than thou
behavior.
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Date: 28 May 2007 13:19:38
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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On May 28, 12:55 pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 06:36:36 -0700, Fred Fredburger
>
> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> >I can see why someone would accept Jef d'Hont as an expert on the
> >mechanics of doping. I have no reason to believe he has any expertise on
> >the effects of doping (or not doping) beyond what is possessed by any
> >randomly chosen poster in this newsgroup. Unless that randomly chosen
> >poster happens to be you. You have a special gift for cluelessness.
>
> Hey Joe Hamburger how about you get a life and get lost, asshole
Dumbass -
Fredburger is correct. Especially his last statement.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 28 May 2007 06:36:36
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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I can see why someone would accept Jef d'Hont as an expert on the
mechanics of doping. I have no reason to believe he has any expertise on
the effects of doping (or not doping) beyond what is possessed by any
randomly chosen poster in this newsgroup. Unless that randomly chosen
poster happens to be you. You have a special gift for cluelessness.
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Date: 28 May 2007 21:55:23
From: Keith
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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On Mon, 28 May 2007 06:36:36 -0700, Fred Fredburger
<Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos > wrote:
>I can see why someone would accept Jef d'Hont as an expert on the
>mechanics of doping. I have no reason to believe he has any expertise on
>the effects of doping (or not doping) beyond what is possessed by any
>randomly chosen poster in this newsgroup. Unless that randomly chosen
>poster happens to be you. You have a special gift for cluelessness.
Hey Joe Hamburger how about you get a life and get lost, asshole
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Date: 28 May 2007 22:55:46
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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"Keith" <nospam@nospam.com > wrote in message
news:pscm53trepu89aq4jc3l4sai7l5vf17fsm@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 06:36:36 -0700, Fred Fredburger
> <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>>I can see why someone would accept Jef d'Hont as an expert on the
>>mechanics of doping. I have no reason to believe he has any expertise on
>>the effects of doping (or not doping) beyond what is possessed by any
>>randomly chosen poster in this newsgroup. Unless that randomly chosen
>>poster happens to be you. You have a special gift for cluelessness.
>
> Hey Joe Hamburger how about you get a life and get lost, asshole
While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way, he does have a point Keith.
Exactly what the hell does a errand boy know about relative physical
conditions?
Would haves and could haves are never weres.
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Date: 28 May 2007 22:36:50
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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Tom Kunich wrote:
> While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way,
I probably wouldn't have either, except that this is the same guy who
asserts elsewhere that doping started with EPO because the things used
before EPO were relatively harmless.
You know, harmless stuff like the amphetamines that killed Tommy Simpson
or maybe a little pot belge. All just good clean fun!
So he asserts that nonsense, then follows it up with the amazing Jef
D'hont "Watch while I rat Ullrich out for cheating AND award him virtual
tour victories at the same TIME!" routine.
The only possible explanation for this combination is intentional
cluelessness. It is not possible for a human to be this stupid without
trying. Really. It's Brian, isn't it? Doing the different name thing again?
All of which really doesn't matter now that my nefarious plan has
finally reached fruition. BWAHAHAHAHAA. I got both you and Henry to
agree with the SAME post. And you know what that means...
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Date: 28 May 2007 23:09:44
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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Fred Fredburger wrote:
> I probably wouldn't have either, except that this is the same guy who
> asserts elsewhere that doping started with EPO because the things used
> before EPO were relatively harmless.
The actual adjective used was not "harmless", it was "mild". The change
makes no difference to the cluefulness or lack thereof of the
surrounding commentary, but is noted in the interest of accuracy.
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Date: 28 May 2007 22:59:33
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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In article <_8adnVcxPsSXIcbbnZ2dnUVZ_ompnZ2d@comcast.com >,
Fred Fredburger <Spam@spambot.com > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way,
>
> I probably wouldn't have either, except that this is the same guy who
> asserts elsewhere that doping started with EPO because the things used
> before EPO were relatively harmless.
>
> You know, harmless stuff like the amphetamines that killed Tommy Simpson
> or maybe a little pot belge. All just good clean fun!
>
> So he asserts that nonsense, then follows it up with the amazing Jef
> D'hont "Watch while I rat Ullrich out for cheating AND award him virtual
> tour victories at the same TIME!" routine.
Jiffy Jef seems to have backtracked on his Ullrich claim anyway (which may lead to
him asserting that Jan would have won 20 Tours!):
__________________
Former Telekom soigneur Jef d'Hont, who recently told German magazine Bild am Sonntag
that he injected Jan Ullrich with EPO, has now retracted the claim in an interview
with Dutch radio station NOS on Monday. When questioned as to who, if anyone, did
administer EPO to the 1997 Tour winner, d'Hont did not give a clear answer but said
he would reveal more in three weeks upon publication of his book in Germany.
__________________
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may29news
> All of which really doesn't matter now that my nefarious plan has
> finally reached fruition. BWAHAHAHAHAA. I got both you and Henry to
> agree with the SAME post. And you know what that means...
The Apocalypse is nigh...
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 28 May 2007 23:17:21
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <_8adnVcxPsSXIcbbnZ2dnUVZ_ompnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> Fred Fredburger <Spam@spambot.com> wrote:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>>> While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way,
>> I probably wouldn't have either, except that this is the same guy who
>> asserts elsewhere that doping started with EPO because the things used
>> before EPO were relatively harmless.
>>
>> You know, harmless stuff like the amphetamines that killed Tommy Simpson
>> or maybe a little pot belge. All just good clean fun!
>>
>> So he asserts that nonsense, then follows it up with the amazing Jef
>> D'hont "Watch while I rat Ullrich out for cheating AND award him virtual
>> tour victories at the same TIME!" routine.
>
> Jiffy Jef seems to have backtracked on his Ullrich claim anyway (which may lead to
> him asserting that Jan would have won 20 Tours!):
> __________________
> Former Telekom soigneur Jef d'Hont, who recently told German magazine Bild am Sonntag
> that he injected Jan Ullrich with EPO, has now retracted the claim in an interview
> with Dutch radio station NOS on Monday. When questioned as to who, if anyone, did
> administer EPO to the 1997 Tour winner, d'Hont did not give a clear answer but said
> he would reveal more in three weeks upon publication of his book in Germany.
> __________________
It's like the old grade school joke. How do you keep a fourth grader in
suspense? I'll tell you in three weeks.
Change "fourth grader" to "someone who takes Jef D'hont seriously" and
you're done.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may29news
>
>> All of which really doesn't matter now that my nefarious plan has
>> finally reached fruition. BWAHAHAHAHAA. I got both you and Henry to
>> agree with the SAME post. And you know what that means...
>
> The Apocalypse is nigh...
OK, maybe I wont tell you in three weeks.
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Date: 29 May 2007 10:33:08
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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On Mon, 28 May 2007 23:17:21 -0700, Fred Fredburger <Spam@spambot.com > wrote:
>Howard Kveck wrote:
>> In article <_8adnVcxPsSXIcbbnZ2dnUVZ_ompnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> Fred Fredburger <Spam@spambot.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>>> While I wouldn't have phrased it Fred's way,
>>> I probably wouldn't have either, except that this is the same guy who
>>> asserts elsewhere that doping started with EPO because the things used
>>> before EPO were relatively harmless.
>>>
>>> You know, harmless stuff like the amphetamines that killed Tommy Simpson
>>> or maybe a little pot belge. All just good clean fun!
>>>
>>> So he asserts that nonsense, then follows it up with the amazing Jef
>>> D'hont "Watch while I rat Ullrich out for cheating AND award him virtual
>>> tour victories at the same TIME!" routine.
>>
>> Jiffy Jef seems to have backtracked on his Ullrich claim anyway (which may lead to
>> him asserting that Jan would have won 20 Tours!):
>> __________________
>> Former Telekom soigneur Jef d'Hont, who recently told German magazine Bild am Sonntag
>> that he injected Jan Ullrich with EPO, has now retracted the claim in an interview
>> with Dutch radio station NOS on Monday. When questioned as to who, if anyone, did
>> administer EPO to the 1997 Tour winner, d'Hont did not give a clear answer but said
>> he would reveal more in three weeks upon publication of his book in Germany.
>> __________________
>
>It's like the old grade school joke. How do you keep a fourth grader in
>suspense? I'll tell you in three weeks.
>
>Change "fourth grader" to "someone who takes Jef D'hont seriously" and
>you're done.
I told y'all the "I fixed him up one time" story didn't smell right.
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may29news
>>
>>> All of which really doesn't matter now that my nefarious plan has
>>> finally reached fruition. BWAHAHAHAHAA. I got both you and Henry to
>>> agree with the SAME post. And you know what that means...
>>
>> The Apocalypse is nigh...
>
>OK, maybe I wont tell you in three weeks.
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Date: 28 May 2007 13:42:20
From: Fred Fredburger
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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Keith wrote:
> On Mon, 28 May 2007 06:36:36 -0700, Fred Fredburger
> <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>> I can see why someone would accept Jef d'Hont as an expert on the
>> mechanics of doping. I have no reason to believe he has any expertise on
>> the effects of doping (or not doping) beyond what is possessed by any
>> randomly chosen poster in this newsgroup. Unless that randomly chosen
>> poster happens to be you. You have a special gift for cluelessness.
>
> Hey Joe Hamburger how about you get a life and get lost, asshole
>
Outstanding rebuttal, given the source.
The question before us is whether you accept Jef d'Hont as a competent
authority. Unfortunately, this is one of those "Catch 22" situations.
If you don't accept his competence, you can instantly dismiss what he
says and move on. Life is good, and all that.
If you DO accept his competence, you have to accept d'Hont's competence
to comment on his own competence. On this subject, he's very clear.
d'Hont believes that he and Ullrich were the most incompetent dopers
around. Their efforts didn't pay off nearly as well as everyone elses.
Ullrich would have won 10 times if dope had been removed from the
equation and he hadn't been penalized by d'Hont's incompetence.
If d'Hont is as big an incompetent fool as he says he is, then it
nullifies anything else he has to say.
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Date: 28 May 2007 05:20:24
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: "Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least!"
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On May 28, 6:11 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com > wrote:
> Sad, sad, sad...if only Ullrich had raced in the 80s...
>
> --------------------------------------------------http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/may07/may28news&from...
>
> Jef d'Hont, former Team Telekom soigneur, said that he gave Jan
> Ullrich an injection of EPO. "I injected him with it one time in
> France," the Belgian said in an interview with Bild am Sonntag.
>
> ......
>
> d'Hont praised the German rider. "If they had all been clean, then
> Ullrich would have won the Tour 10 times. At least! I don't know if
> the wanted the doping or not. But he did it because everyone was doing
> it." He urged Ullrich to confess. "It would be good for him to lay his
> cards on the table, too. Then he would feel freer."
>
> ........
>
> d'Hont contradicted Bjarne Riis' claim that he introduced the Dane to
> EPO. "That is not true. He had pumped himself full before his time at
> Telekom. He told me that himself." He contrasted Riis to Ullrich,
> saying, "He became famous, because he doped. Otherwise he was just an
> average rider."
>
> .......
>
> He wanted to confess earlier, he said. "But my son was still a
> soigneur at Team Telekom I didn't want to endanger his position.
> Walter Godefroot, the former team manager knew that, too: as long as
> my son worked for him, I wouldn't say anything. That's why he hired
> him."
>
> .......
>
> "One ampule cost 25 Euros. I gathered the money from the riders, then
> gave it to Walter Godefroot." Godefroot has denied being involved in
> any way.
For all these guys that put in an 'unbelievable' performance...if it
looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck......how about a reality
check...doping is huge, for every team, every rider...for all the big
boys as well as the domestiques that also get paid a
bunch.....geeezzz, eve golfers shoot up for an advantage..why not stop
ringing our collective hands about our 'sport' and just ride our bike,
watch the races with the idea that Doctor's have a huge part in this,
just like any professional sport anywhere in the US...so what.
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