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Main
Date: 24 Jul 2007 17:16:34
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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According to the BBC.
Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
France.
Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
Astana said two distinct types of red blood cells were found in
Vinokourov's sample indicating he had had a blood transfusion before
Saturday's stage.
If Vinokourov's B-sample also tests positive he faces a two-year ban.
Astana manager Marc Biver said: "It will be analysed before the end of
the week.
"Vino denies any blood manipulation. He says after his crash on July
12, there may be blood anomalies.
Vinokourov was hotly tipped for this year's title but lost time in a
bad crash on stage five and slipped further back in the stages in the
Alps.
But he looked back to his best in a dominant time-trial on Saturday
and, although he dropped out of overall contention with a disastrous
display on Sunday, he won another arduous mountain stage on Monday.
Before their withdrawal Astana had been leading the team standings in
this year's Tour and had Andreas Kloeden in fifth place and Andrey
Kashechkin in eighth.
The organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw,
which was immediately accepted
Astana team statement
The team released a statement that said: "The anti-doping control on
Alexandre Vinokourov, which was carried out on July 21 after the time
trial in Albi, has tested positive.
"According to the ethical code of the Astana Cycling Team Alexandre
Vinokourov has been suspended from the team with immediate effect. The
rider has asked nevertheless for a B-sample analysis.
"Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de
France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted."
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 20:37:31
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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On Jul 27, 4:23 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:edpon4-93r.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>
> > in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> > Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>
> >> What the hell gives you that idea?
>
> > DNA.
>
> Maybe you can explain what DNA is in red blood cells?
dumbass,
maybe you should be an advisor to ullrich.
red cells don't have nuclei but there's enough DNA in blood to do a
match.
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Date: 28 Jul 2007 00:19:24
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185568651.955017.57440@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 4:23 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> news:edpon4-93r.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>>
>> > in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
>> > Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>
>> >> What the hell gives you that idea?
>>
>> > DNA.
>>
>> Maybe you can explain what DNA is in red blood cells?
>
> dumbass,
>
> maybe you should be an advisor to ullrich.
>
> red cells don't have nuclei but there's enough DNA in blood to do a
> match.
Maybe you can tell us all about mitochondrial DNA?
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 07:41:40
From: Marian
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 25, 7:40 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9977A4497A409FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>
>
>
> > benjo maso wrote:
>
> >> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> >>news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
> >>>> detected as
> >>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
> >>>> anyone
> >>>> around him not inform him?
>
> >>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing
> >>>> Laboratory.....
>
> >>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
> >>> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>
> >> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
> >> small conspiracy?
>
> > How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a hotel
> > room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big mistake?
> > Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
>
> I'm not so sure. I can't imagine that Vino would have done a thing like that
> without phoning his adviser dr.Michele Ferrari. Besides, yoy can be sure
> that an experienced rider as Vino knows everything about doping. After all,
> acoording to an ex-pro the latest about doping has become the most favorite
> subject of conversation among riders, even surpassing sex and money.
I know the ones I was hanging out with last week are a little lower
down on the food chain but I didn't overhear or participate in any
conversations about doping. Sex, food, weather, and money (in that
order) seemed to be the main topics in English and Chinese.
Maybe twelve days wasn't enough time to spend hanging around them.
-M
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 23:37:19
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 25, 6:05 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
> some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
>
dumbass,
that is such a lame fuck up that i'm more inclined to believe that
vino panicked and decided to use homologous doping even though there's
a test for it.
> Rasmussen however, is a complete dumbass. He can't blame what happened on
> anyone but himself.
there is more known than what schmoebags like us get on velonews and
cyclingnews. rasmussen wasn't pulled from the tour and fired for his
team simply for lying about his whereabouts. i think that's what
mcquaid's comments earlier this week alluded to.
there is obviously evidence (that will probably come out soon) that
would implicate him in doping and they are avoiding that
humiliation.
this is apart from the "evidence" that he lied about his whereabouts
because he was doping -- not a WADA approved dope test, but simple
logic -- though bill would call this throwing pagans in the stalag or
something.
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 10:14:23
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> that is such a lame fuck up that i'm more inclined to believe that
> vino panicked and decided to use homologous doping even though there's
> a test for it.
I'm not sure what the probabality of getting incompatible blood is, but I
can only assume there are a team of super-domestique guardian angels
watching over morons given that both Vino and Hamilton suffered no ill
effects from accidentally using the wrong blood.
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 23:49:26
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 25, 6:05 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is
>> that some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
>>
>
> that is such a lame fuck up that i'm more inclined to believe that
> vino panicked and decided to use homologous doping even though there's
> a test for it.
That makes no sense. HD is easily detectable and the effect lasts for
months. He was already in 23rd place. Why was he panicking? Are you
saying he panicked before the time trial and didn't get caught until he won
the TT? Even if he was doping to win the Tour and panicked before the TT,
if he had a reasonable expectation to win or even make a podium then knew
he would be tested and would therefore get caught. He's egotistical but
not imbecilic. In contrast, lame fuck-ups happen all the time, like
baggage handlers forgetting to latch hatches correctly causing plane
crashes with 300 fatalities to national security advisors ignoring clear
warnings of impending terrorist attacks with 3000 fatalities to Tour
contenders falling asleep with their testosterone patch on.
> there is more known than what schmoebags like us get on velonews and
> cyclingnews. rasmussen wasn't pulled from the tour and fired for his
> team simply for lying about his whereabouts. i think that's what
> mcquaid's comments earlier this week alluded to.
>
> there is obviously evidence (that will probably come out soon) that
> would implicate him in doping and they are avoiding that
> humiliation.
>
> this is apart from the "evidence" that he lied about his whereabouts
> because he was doping -- not a WADA approved dope test, but simple
> logic -- though bill would call this throwing pagans in the stalag or
> something.
>
I agree with this. But Rasmussen is still a moron.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 01:22:18
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9978AB17593F2FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Jul 25, 6:05 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is
>>> that some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
>>>
>>
>> that is such a lame fuck up that i'm more inclined to believe that
>> vino panicked and decided to use homologous doping even though there's
>> a test for it.
>
> That makes no sense. HD is easily detectable and the effect lasts for
> months. He was already in 23rd place. Why was he panicking? Are you
> saying he panicked before the time trial and didn't get caught until he
> won
> the TT? Even if he was doping to win the Tour and panicked before the TT,
> if he had a reasonable expectation to win or even make a podium then knew
> he would be tested and would therefore get caught. He's egotistical but
> not imbecilic. In contrast, lame fuck-ups happen all the time, like
> baggage handlers forgetting to latch hatches correctly causing plane
> crashes with 300 fatalities to national security advisors ignoring clear
> warnings of impending terrorist attacks with 3000 fatalities to Tour
> contenders falling asleep with their testosterone patch on.
>
>> there is more known than what schmoebags like us get on velonews and
>> cyclingnews. rasmussen wasn't pulled from the tour and fired for his
>> team simply for lying about his whereabouts. i think that's what
>> mcquaid's comments earlier this week alluded to.
>>
>> there is obviously evidence (that will probably come out soon) that
>> would implicate him in doping and they are avoiding that
>> humiliation.
>>
>> this is apart from the "evidence" that he lied about his whereabouts
>> because he was doping -- not a WADA approved dope test, but simple
>> logic -- though bill would call this throwing pagans in the stalag or
>> something.
>>
>
> I agree with this. But Rasmussen is still a moron.
Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it would
have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have identified
that.
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 15:50:37
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in
news:eHSpi.10898$tj6.9862@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
<snip >
>
> Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it
> would have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have
> identified that.
>
>
It doesn't matter if it's whole blood or packed cells, if the whole blood
or red cells come from a different person it is easily detectable.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 00:37:21
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns997959FC0581EFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
> news:eHSpi.10898$tj6.9862@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it
>> would have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have
>> identified that.
>
> It doesn't matter if it's whole blood or packed cells, if the whole blood
> or red cells come from a different person it is easily detectable.
What the hell gives you that idea?
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 10:10:38
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3220@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns997959FC0581EFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
>> news:eHSpi.10898$tj6.9862@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>>
>>> Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it
>>> would have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have
>>> identified that.
>>
>> It doesn't matter if it's whole blood or packed cells, if the whole
>> blood or red cells come from a different person it is easily detectable.
>
> What the hell gives you that idea?
DNA.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
---===***<<< This space to let! >>>***===---
Yes! You, too, can SPAM in the Famous Brooke Rotating .sig!
---===***<<< Only $300 per line >>>***===---
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 20:23:06
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:edpon4-93r.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3220@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>
>> What the hell gives you that idea?
>
> DNA.
Maybe you can explain what DNA is in red blood cells?
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 00:46:33
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns997959FC0581EFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
>> news:eHSpi.10898$tj6.9862@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>>
>>> Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it
>>> would have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have
>>> identified that.
>>
>> It doesn't matter if it's whole blood or packed cells, if the whole
>> blood or red cells come from a different person it is easily
>> detectable.
>
> What the hell gives you that idea?
<sigh > I know I'm going to regret this.
Ok, explain to me how transfusing someone else's separated red blood cells
isn't detectable while transfusing someone else's whole blood is, or vice
versa. Whichever it is you believe.
From reading this:
http://tinyurl.com/yp47r6
and just thinking logically about it, either method of homologous doping
(packed cells or whole blood) should be easily detectable. So tell me what
the difference is.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 02:58:47
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9979B4C54AB77FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns997959FC0581EFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in
>>> news:eHSpi.10898$tj6.9862@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>>>
>>>> Vino wouldn't have been taking whole blood in the first place - it
>>>> would have been separated red blood cells. There's no test to have
>>>> identified that.
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter if it's whole blood or packed cells, if the whole
>>> blood or red cells come from a different person it is easily
>>> detectable.
>>
>> What the hell gives you that idea?
>
> <sigh> I know I'm going to regret this.
>
> Ok, explain to me how transfusing someone else's separated red blood cells
> isn't detectable while transfusing someone else's whole blood is, or vice
> versa. Whichever it is you believe.
>
> From reading this:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yp47r6
>
> and just thinking logically about it, either method of homologous doping
> (packed cells or whole blood) should be easily detectable. So tell me
> what
> the difference is.
OK, now explain how it is that this article claims that it is a simple and
straight-forward process and yet WADA claims their process is secret?
Maybe you missed the statement in that article: "Hundreds of athletes have
been tested using this technique and only a few positives have been found."
Without knowing the rate of false positives you have a test that in fact
proves nothing at all.
And here's a clue - many of the factors that can be used to test for
homologous transfussion aren't in the cells themselves but on the surface
and can be removed with a cleaning technique. And still others reside in the
serum and when you spin the cells down. wash and then hydrate them with a
saline carrier they no longer exist.
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 03:43:02
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in
news:Hbdqi.12419$zA4.8585@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net:
> And here's a clue - many of the factors that can be used to test for
> homologous transfussion aren't in the cells themselves but on the
> surface and can be removed with a cleaning technique. And still others
> reside in the serum and when you spin the cells down. wash and then
> hydrate them with a saline carrier they no longer exist.
Making universal red blood cells, which is what I think you are talking
about, has been the holy grail of hematology for years. As near as I can
tell, the enzymatic methods are inefficient
http://www.scientistsolutions.com/index.php?a=topic&t=4067
and if there were easy ways to do it, you wouldn't have feature articles
in recent issues of Nature Biotech like this:
www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v25/n4/full/nbt0407-427.html
and this:
http://tinyurl.com/2sor5g
I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
field. Can you provide some references that show there are easy ways of
washing the major antigens off of blood cells so that large quantities
can be made. Then explain why blood banks and hospitals don't use it and
instead call up all the O-neg people in christendom when there is a major
wreck on the interstate.
Ancillary to that, if it is so easy to make antigen-free cells, why on
earth did Vinokourov get popped for homologous doping? Are you saying he
was so stupid that he used someone else's blood but forgot to wash it
first? Or are you arguing that nobody, except me of course, would be
stupid enough to not wash the blood first so that he must have been
framed?
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 20:21:00
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9979D2C5C2C6AFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>
> Ancillary to that, if it is so easy to make antigen-free cells, why on
> earth did Vinokourov get popped for homologous doping? Are you saying he
> was so stupid that he used someone else's blood but forgot to wash it
> first? Or are you arguing that nobody, except me of course, would be
> stupid enough to not wash the blood first so that he must have been
> framed?
Maybe you miss the posting I made which you originally were replying to?
"Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
anyone around him not inform him? This is beginning to smell like a French
Drug Testing Laboratory....."
My suggestion is that unlike your belief that in the biggest race in the
world when so many doping tests are being made that one of the guys winning
big stages somehow gets blood bags "mixed up" that something else is going
on here.
Somehow Vino is going to dope and THEN go out and win a stage. "Oh," claims
Asher, "It was just a mistake like Floyd and Tyler and all the rest." I have
a real problem with your idea that everyone in the world is incompetent but
you.
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 20:33:19
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9979D2C5C2C6AFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> Ancillary to that, if it is so easy to make antigen-free cells, why
>> on earth did Vinokourov get popped for homologous doping? Are you
>> saying he was so stupid that he used someone else's blood but forgot
>> to wash it first? Or are you arguing that nobody, except me of
>> course, would be stupid enough to not wash the blood first so that he
>> must have been framed?
>
> Maybe you miss the posting I made which you originally were replying
> to?
>
> "Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
> detected as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid,
> how could anyone around him not inform him? This is beginning to smell
> like a French Drug Testing Laboratory....."
>
> My suggestion is that unlike your belief that in the biggest race in
> the world when so many doping tests are being made that one of the
> guys winning big stages somehow gets blood bags "mixed up" that
> something else is going on here.
>
> Somehow Vino is going to dope and THEN go out and win a stage. "Oh,"
> claims Asher, "It was just a mistake like Floyd and Tyler and all the
> rest." I have a real problem with your idea that everyone in the world
> is incompetent but you.
Ok, so you are in the "grand conspiracy" camp. I can accept that. To me,
the "tired, underpaid, overworked staffer operating under extreme pressure
goofs" explanation makes a lot more sense.
To each his own, I say. As Bruce Williams, immortal advice dispenser of
TalkNet (o/~ o/~ turn on, tune in, we care, TalkNet o/~ o/~) fame would
say, this is why they make ice cream in chocolate, strawberry, and vanilla.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 07:30:43
From: Kyle Legate
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
>
> I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
> field.
>
It's not one of Tom's fields either, that's quite obvious.
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 17:37:48
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Kyle Legate wrote:
> William Asher wrote:
>>
>> I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
>> field.
>>
>
> It's not one of Tom's fields either, that's quite obvious.
Anyway, after thinking about this some more, if you were able to wash the
antigens off, which I doubt you can easily without killing the cells,
couldn't you detect homologous blood doping by an increase in the fraction
of antigen-free RBCs you counted? Or maybe if you detected *any* antigen-
free RBCs that would be evidence of doping?
--
Bill Asher
|
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 17:16:34
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
In article <Xns997A6C138C49EFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4 >, William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Kyle Legate wrote:
>
> > William Asher wrote:
> >>
> >> I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
> >> field.
> >>
> >
> > It's not one of Tom's fields either, that's quite obvious.
>
> Anyway, after thinking about this some more, if you were able to wash the
> antigens off, which I doubt you can easily without killing the cells,
> couldn't you detect homologous blood doping by an increase in the fraction
> of antigen-free RBCs you counted? Or maybe if you detected *any* antigen-
> free RBCs that would be evidence of doping?
That would depend on whether you got the Ronco Cell-o-Matic blood washer or some
discount knockoff at the flea market.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 23:01:09
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
In article <5gte83F3ht64mU2@mid.individual.net >, Kyle Legate <legatek@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> William Asher wrote:
> >
> > I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
> > field.
> >
>
> It's not one of Tom's fields either, that's quite obvious.
But he went to Castlemont High in Oakland!
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
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Date: 27 Jul 2007 17:53:38
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <5gte83F3ht64mU2@mid.individual.net>, Kyle Legate
> <legatek@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> William Asher wrote:
>> >
>> > I think you're blowing smoke. But then, molecular biology isn't my
>> > field.
>> >
>>
>> It's not one of Tom's fields either, that's quite obvious.
>
> But he went to Castlemont High in Oakland!
>
What about playing high school football, just like my hero Al Bundy?
You know, man, when I was a young man in high school
You believe in or not, that I wanted to play football for the coach
All those older guys, they said he was mean and cruel
But you know, I wanted to play football, for the coach
They said I was to little too light weight to play line-back
So I say I'm playing right-in
Wanted to play football for the coach
Cause, you know some day, man, you gotta stand up straight
Unless you're gonna fall
Then you're gonna die
And the straightest dude I ever knew
Was standing right for me, all the time
So I had to play football for the coach
And I wanted to play football for the coach
-Lou Reed
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 09:41:53
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Howard Kveck wrote:
> But he went to Castlemont High in Oakland!
Is that like Yale on crack ?
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 14:53:41
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 25, 12:06 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> But because it is so easy to detect homologous blood doping and the effects
> last for so long, they would have assumed that it would be detected had
> they done it intentionally. It is far more likely, almost certain, that
> Astana got the bags get mixed up or received bags where the codes were
> mixed up. If you tested the rest of Astana, you would undoubtedly find at
> least one other rider with the same blood type as Vinokourov who also tests
> positive for homologous blood doping.
>
> Vinokourov's explanation of the test result is so unbelievably lame it
> isn't even amusing. If I were Ferrari and I knew I had mixed up the labels
> and I knew that Astana knew I had mixed up the labels, I would be looking
> at relocating somewhere with bundles of cash after getting extensive
> cosmetic surgery.
Dumbass -
It was probably the mistake of a soigneur.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 22:05:46
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> It was probably the mistake of a soigneur.
I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
Somewhere though, some tired man or woman making little more than minimum
wage, although working in a critical position, did what people always do,
they slipped up.
Rasmussen however, is a complete dumbass. He can't blame what happened on
anyone but himself.
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 13:11:57
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On 25 Jul 2007 22:05:46 GMT, William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:
>I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
>some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
Wouldn't that create probelms if the blood wasn't the right type?
|
| | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 21:13:35
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On 25 Jul 2007 22:05:46 GMT, William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
>>some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
>
> Wouldn't that create probelms if the blood wasn't the right type?
>
Like I said, probably in clear letters are the blood type, then the rider
code. Types are easier to match than codes, and they may even test the
type before transfusing to avoid killing people. I know I would. But they
get bag O-neg U75-H630489-K32749 and may not know that Vinokourov should be
O-neg U57-H4387236-P94022. The O-negs match so at least he doesn't die.
They would use codes instead of names or even codenames to avoid the Puerto
implications, where the codename on the bag was connected to a rider. So
now it is a cryptic code and all it takes is somebody writing down the
wrong number for a particular rider.
Why is it so much harder to believe someone messed up and got the bags
confused than Vinokourov intentionally transfused someone else's blood so
he could win races with the near certain knowledge that after he had done
so if he did indeed win races the post-race testing would catch him?
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 00:39:38
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns997990A9B397FFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>
> Why is it so much harder to believe someone messed up and got the bags
> confused than Vinokourov intentionally transfused someone else's blood so
> he could win races with the near certain knowledge that after he had done
> so if he did indeed win races the post-race testing would catch him?
You really are an idiot aren't you? Obviously you really believe that
someone that's getting paid thousands of dollars is like really really
stupid and can't read a code.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 00:53:40
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns997990A9B397FFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> Why is it so much harder to believe someone messed up and got the
>> bags confused than Vinokourov intentionally transfused someone else's
>> blood so he could win races with the near certain knowledge that
>> after he had done so if he did indeed win races the post-race testing
>> would catch him?
>
> You really are an idiot aren't you? Obviously you really believe that
> someone that's getting paid thousands of dollars is like really really
> stupid and can't read a code.
An airplane flies into trees and kills 200 people because pilots misread a
three character runway/taxiway code. Read the cockpit transcripts from the
Tenerife dual-747 crash in the late 70's or the 727 that hit the Cessna
over San Diego around the same time. Either is a classic example of people
who are real pros completely screwing the pooch. Mistakes happen, highly
paid competent people screw up all the time.
I would bet on fatigue. How tired do you think the support people are by
the second week of the tour? I'm betting they barely know their names, let
alone a random code on a blood bag.
Now see? I disagreed with you without calling you a total douche, although
I could have. I feel good about my response. After you call someone an
idiot, do you really feel good? Remember, I'm here to help.
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 09:40:30
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
> Now see? I disagreed with you without calling you a total douche, although
> I could have. I feel good about my response. After you call someone an
> idiot, do you really feel good? Remember, I'm here to help.
But its not helping rbr achieve its July target.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 10:17:27
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:40:30 +0200, Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>William Asher wrote:
>> Now see? I disagreed with you without calling you a total douche, although
>> I could have. I feel good about my response. After you call someone an
>> idiot, do you really feel good? Remember, I'm here to help.
>
>But its not helping rbr achieve its July target.
Ya know, if it wasn't for this late surge there would've been no hope of
maintaining the standard. Chicken really pulled through for us.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 17:54:57
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
RonSonic wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:40:30 +0200, Donald Munro
> <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>William Asher wrote:
>>> Now see? I disagreed with you without calling you a total douche,
>>> although I could have. I feel good about my response. After you
>>> call someone an idiot, do you really feel good? Remember, I'm here
>>> to help.
>>
>>But its not helping rbr achieve its July target.
>
> Ya know, if it wasn't for this late surge there would've been no hope
> of maintaining the standard. Chicken really pulled through for us.
Isn't there a line from the bible or a Disney movie, something like that
anyway, about how they were saved by the tiniest among them?
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 02:49:18
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9979B5F9F52C7FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:Xns997990A9B397FFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>>>
>>> Why is it so much harder to believe someone messed up and got the
>>> bags confused than Vinokourov intentionally transfused someone else's
>>> blood so he could win races with the near certain knowledge that
>>> after he had done so if he did indeed win races the post-race testing
>>> would catch him?
>>
>> You really are an idiot aren't you? Obviously you really believe that
>> someone that's getting paid thousands of dollars is like really really
>> stupid and can't read a code.
>
> An airplane flies into trees and kills 200 people because pilots misread a
> three character runway/taxiway code. Read the cockpit transcripts from
> the
> Tenerife dual-747 crash in the late 70's or the 727 that hit the Cessna
> over San Diego around the same time.
I've got news for you - there are tens of thousands of landings yearly and
you're discussing a mistake made 30 years ago. But of course you're too
stupid to actually realize that.
Meanwhile your claim is that every month someone is "making a mistake" and
switching bloodbags at the most important race in the world.
I wonder if you ever bother to look at yourself in the mirror.
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:26:01
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > It was probably the mistake of a soigneur.
> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
> some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
> Somewhere though, some tired man or woman making little more than minimum
> wage, although working in a critical position, did what people always do,
> they slipped up.
> Rasmussen however, is a complete dumbass. He can't blame what happened on
> anyone but himself.
Funny thing is that he might even be clean.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:59:13
From: alex beascoechea
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk > wrote in message
news:p8vkn4-sp4.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
>> > It was probably the mistake of a soigneur.
>
>> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
>> some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
>
>> Somewhere though, some tired man or woman making little more than minimum
>> wage, although working in a critical position, did what people always do,
>> they slipped up.
>
>> Rasmussen however, is a complete dumbass. He can't blame what happened
>> on
>> anyone but himself.
>
> Funny thing is that he might even be clean.
It is not funny. It is just completely improbable! That is why he is lying
constantly.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 02:03:51
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
alex beascoechea <alex_beascoechea@yahoo.com > wrote:
> "Morten Reippuert Knudsen" <spam@reippuert.dk> wrote in message
> news:p8vkn4-sp4.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk...
> > William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> >> > It was probably the mistake of a soigneur.
> >
> >> I agree that is most likely, but maybe only a little less likely is that
> >> some underling of Ferrari's could have mislabeled the bags.
> >
> >> Somewhere though, some tired man or woman making little more than minimum
> >> wage, although working in a critical position, did what people always do,
> >> they slipped up.
> >
> >> Rasmussen however, is a complete dumbass. He can't blame what happened
> >> on
> >> anyone but himself.
> >
> > Funny thing is that he might even be clean.
> It is not funny. It is just completely improbable! That is why he is lying
> constantly.
Currently we can only speculate. Facts are:
He has been suspended for lieing to his employer who based on those
lies took a public stand to defend him. Any employer would fire an
employe on those grounds.
At this moment there is no doping suspicion or charge against him.
He's got some warnings for missing out of competition tests and falty
whereabouts witch isn't enough to charge him acording to current UCI,
MCF, DCU or WADA rulesets.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 22:02:58
From: newsgroups.comcast.net
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
Now many are comparing Vino with Floyd from last year and the doping. I am
putting out a different idea. Both Floyd and Vino are riding BMC bikes.
Both had great rides and then lost steam and suddenly came out like a rocket
was up their ass. The one thing both had in common BMC road bikes. Hmm maybe
it's the bikes. We need to test the bike maybe that is what is causing the
performance issue and the doping problem. It's a secret conspiracy ;)
Any thoughts?
"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote in message
news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
> According to the BBC.
>
> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> France.
>
> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> Astana said two distinct types of red blood cells were found in
> Vinokourov's sample indicating he had had a blood transfusion before
> Saturday's stage.
>
> If Vinokourov's B-sample also tests positive he faces a two-year ban.
>
> Astana manager Marc Biver said: "It will be analysed before the end of
> the week.
>
> "Vino denies any blood manipulation. He says after his crash on July
> 12, there may be blood anomalies.
>
> Vinokourov was hotly tipped for this year's title but lost time in a
> bad crash on stage five and slipped further back in the stages in the
> Alps.
>
> But he looked back to his best in a dominant time-trial on Saturday
> and, although he dropped out of overall contention with a disastrous
> display on Sunday, he won another arduous mountain stage on Monday.
>
> Before their withdrawal Astana had been leading the team standings in
> this year's Tour and had Andreas Kloeden in fifth place and Andrey
> Kashechkin in eighth.
>
> The organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw,
> which was immediately accepted
>
> Astana team statement
>
> The team released a statement that said: "The anti-doping control on
> Alexandre Vinokourov, which was carried out on July 21 after the time
> trial in Albi, has tested positive.
>
> "According to the ethical code of the Astana Cycling Team Alexandre
> Vinokourov has been suspended from the team with immediate effect. The
> rider has asked nevertheless for a B-sample analysis.
>
> "Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de
> France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted."
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:42:32
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
"newsgroups.comcast.net" <scharles@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:_4GdnQhJ1dz5MjvbnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Any thoughts?
It isn't any surprise that you're too much of a coward to sign your name.
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 08:19:34
From: Charles Stein
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
Tom,
Pardon my from signature, first time I set up the newsgroup for responding
and didn't realize it didn't show my name.
I am Charles Stein so you know.
Tom, you have a big mouth you really should watch who you call a coward. You
have the safety of the internet, to express yourself. Sounds like me like a
good streak of yellow running from head to tail.
Have a good day Tom.,
Charles
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in message
news:sMypi.11713$zA4.6568@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "newsgroups.comcast.net" <scharles@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:_4GdnQhJ1dz5MjvbnZ2dnUVZ_h2pnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> It isn't any surprise that you're too much of a coward to sign your name.
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:10:15
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
"Charles Stein" <scharles@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:UemdnfIXd9J0ojrbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Tom,
>
> Pardon my from signature, first time I set up the newsgroup for responding
> and didn't realize it didn't show my name.
>
> I am Charles Stein so you know.
>
> Tom, you have a big mouth you really should watch who you call a coward.
> You have the safety of the internet, to express yourself. Sounds like me
> like a good streak of yellow running from head to tail.
Well Charles - my name and address and even tax records have been published
on the internet by some of you anonymous types so you can find out where I
live any time you think you're brave enough to show up and say something to
me.
By the way - I'm 6'4". 200 lbs and I went to high school in east Oakland.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 21:32:10
From: Charles Stein
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote in message
news:HDRpi.10774$rR.6970@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Charles Stein" <scharles@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:UemdnfIXd9J0ojrbnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Tom,
>>
>> Pardon my from signature, first time I set up the newsgroup for
>> responding and didn't realize it didn't show my name.
>>
>> I am Charles Stein so you know.
>>
>> Tom, you have a big mouth you really should watch who you call a coward.
>> You have the safety of the internet, to express yourself. Sounds like me
>> like a good streak of yellow running from head to tail.
>
> Well Charles - my name and address and even tax records have been
> published on the internet by some of you anonymous types so you can find
> out where I live any time you think you're brave enough to show up and say
> something to me.
>
> By the way - I'm 6'4". 200 lbs and I went to high school in east Oakland.
>
Tom,
I don't have a problem saying to your face what I said here. So what if you
are 6'4 200 lbs and went to school in east Oakland, ca.
If you want to compare then so you know I am 6'3 230 lbs. I went to school
in LA. Yes I too grew up in a few tough schools and survived them.
You should try cutting your steroid shots, might lower your roid rage.
Charles
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 09:53:34
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
Charles Stein wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> I'm 6'4". 200 lbs
>
> I am 6'3 230 lbs.
Will you two get a room. Or go do some other form of exercise.
--
E. Dronkert
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 02:18:53
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out It's The Bike's Fault
|
"Charles Stein" <scharles@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:34GdnX7TPvk2ZDrbnZ2dnUVZ_siknZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> You should try cutting your steroid shots, might lower your roid rage.
Either that or stop being annoyed by people telling us that Floyd was doping
whole not having the slightest idea of what the facts in the case are.
Perhaps you believe your little joke was harmless but maybe you ought to
read the 2000 other postings by people who think they're at least as clever
as you portray yourself to be.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 18:41:40
From:
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 24, 8:00 pm, chester <ches...@hotmeal.com > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > "Jack Hollis" <xslee...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
> >> According to the BBC.
>
> >> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> >> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> >> France.
>
> >> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> >> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> > Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
> > homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
> > around him not inform him?
>
> > This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
> Or perhaps a dumbass who labeled some blood bags incorrectly- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
Its stupid to suggest the others in the team and management didnt
know..
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:52:59
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
anton2468 wrote:
> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
Kazakh kocktail.
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:43:07
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:52:59 +0200, Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>anton2468 wrote:
>> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
>
>It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
>Kazakh kocktail.
That's supposed to be drunk with alcohol, not transfused.
Ron
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 21:12:10
From: Stu Fleming
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> anton2468 wrote:
>> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
>
> It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
> Kazakh kocktail.
>
>
There is one theory that says that Vino is a vampire and hence having
someone else's blood mixed with his is just normal...
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 17:56:08
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
In article <46a7129c$1@news2.actrix.gen.nz >, Stu Fleming <stewart@wic.co.nz> wrote:
> Donald Munro wrote:
> > anton2468 wrote:
> >> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
> >
> > It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
> > Kazakh kocktail.
> >
> >
> There is one theory that says that Vino is a vampire and hence having
> someone else's blood mixed with his is just normal...
Vino a vampire? Maybe. But I think Rasmussen looks more like a vampire:
http://www.parmaq.com/kitbuilding/Images/Nosferatu2.jpg
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/july05/images/Rasmussen.jpg
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 11:37:58
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:12:10 +1200, Stu Fleming <stewart@wic.co.nz >
wrote:
>Donald Munro wrote:
>> anton2468 wrote:
>>> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
>>
>> It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
>> Kazakh kocktail.
>>
>>
>There is one theory that says that Vino is a vampire and hence having
>someone else's blood mixed with his is just normal...
That excuse only works for riders from Romania.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 23:51:23
From: Kyle Legate
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Jack Hollis wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:12:10 +1200, Stu Fleming <stewart@wic.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> Donald Munro wrote:
>>> anton2468 wrote:
>>>> Yeah the cheating twat probably used Klotens blood.
>>> It was a mix of Kloten, Salvodelli Ulrich and Deluca's blood. Its called a
>>> Kazakh kocktail.
>>>
>>>
>> There is one theory that says that Vino is a vampire and hence having
>> someone else's blood mixed with his is just normal...
>
>
> That excuse only works for riders from Romania.
Name one.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2007 12:50:13
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:51:23 +0200, Kyle Legate <legatek@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>>> There is one theory that says that Vino is a vampire and hence having
>>> someone else's blood mixed with his is just normal...
>>
>>
>> That excuse only works for riders from Romania.
>
>Name one.
Most of them are not well-known because they only race at night.
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:41:34
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
<anton2468@aol.com > wrote in message
news:1185327700.804485.262040@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 8:00 pm, chester <ches...@hotmeal.com> wrote:
>
> Its stupid to suggest the others in the team and management didnt
> know..
Isn't it stupider to suggest that people giving transfussions are stupid and
incompetent?
|
| |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 01:25:19
From: JC
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote in message
news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
> According to the BBC.
>
> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> France.
>
> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> Astana said two distinct types of red blood cells were found in
> Vinokourov's sample indicating he had had a blood transfusion before
> Saturday's stage.
>
> If Vinokourov's B-sample also tests positive he faces a two-year ban.
>
> Astana manager Marc Biver said: "It will be analysed before the end of
> the week.
>
> "Vino denies any blood manipulation. He says after his crash on July
> 12, there may be blood anomalies.
>
> Vinokourov was hotly tipped for this year's title but lost time in a
> bad crash on stage five and slipped further back in the stages in the
> Alps.
>
> But he looked back to his best in a dominant time-trial on Saturday
> and, although he dropped out of overall contention with a disastrous
> display on Sunday, he won another arduous mountain stage on Monday.
As soon as he went from one extreme, losing almost half an hour in one day,
to another where he wiped the field the very next day.. i was thinking
Landis all over again
I thought it seemed obvious enough to compare the two, but i feared this
newbie would be pounced on, upon posting such observations.
Now it appears Evans should at least finish on the podium
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 17:05:56
From:
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 24, 6:44 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
> > homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
> > around him not inform him?
>
> > This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
> Bill C
Ah thats ok then.....Just stupidity.
There is not a rider in that field who has not doped at some point.
Blame it on the French.
They caught this latest guy, last years guy and they caught Lance.
One day someone from Discovery will spill the beans. When they need
the cash.
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 16:53:08
From: RicodJour
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 24, 6:54 pm, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl > wrote:
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
> >> as
> >> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
> >> anyone
> >> around him not inform him?
>
> >> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
> > As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
> > is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>
> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a small
> conspiracy?
The guy's been oozing blood for a while now. What's the standard
procedure and where is the blood supposed to come from for a necessary
transfusion during a race? If there is no standard procedure, then
you wreck, and you're out?
R
|
| |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 15:44:09
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
>
> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
> around him not inform him?
>
> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 00:27:53
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 27, 8:19 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1185568651.955017.57440@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 27, 4:23 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
>
> >>news:edpon4-93r.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>
> >> > in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> >> > Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>
> >> >> What the hell gives you that idea?
>
> >> > DNA.
>
> >> Maybe you can explain what DNA is in red blood cells?
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > maybe you should be an advisor to ullrich.
>
> > red cells don't have nuclei but there's enough DNA in blood to do a
> > match.
>
> Maybe you can tell us all about mitochondrial DNA?
moron,
i don't know why you waste your time on rbr. ullrich or hamilton would
spend big bucks for your expertise.
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 01:30:14
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185582473.463294.146150@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 8:19 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1185568651.955017.57440@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 27, 4:23 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> >> "Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:edpon4-93r.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>>
>> >> > in message <57bqi.12194$Od7.3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> >> > Tom
>> >> > Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>
>> >> >> What the hell gives you that idea?
>>
>> >> > DNA.
>>
>> >> Maybe you can explain what DNA is in red blood cells?
>>
>> > dumbass,
>>
>> > maybe you should be an advisor to ullrich.
>>
>> > red cells don't have nuclei but there's enough DNA in blood to do a
>> > match.
>>
>> Maybe you can tell us all about mitochondrial DNA?
>
> moron,
>
> i don't know why you waste your time on rbr. ullrich or hamilton would
> spend big bucks for your expertise.
But here I can learn such things as - mitochondrial DNA is so complete that
you can fingerprint blood with it. You can't use cleaned and concentrated
red blood cells because cleaning them destroys them. You know - all that
highly technical stuff like there wasn't any EPO when LeMond won the Tour in
'89.
|
| | |
Date: 27 Jul 2007 20:41:49
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 27, 4:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
> as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
> anyone around him not inform him? This is beginning to smell like a French
> Drug Testing Laboratory....."
>
dumbass,
to an observer it seems like after he lost time in the alps he was
desperate and transfused someone else's blood and crossed his fingers.
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Jul 2007 00:18:37
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1185568909.673886.272870@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 4:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> "Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>> detected
>> as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>> anyone around him not inform him? This is beginning to smell like a
>> French
>> Drug Testing Laboratory....."
>
> to an observer it seems like after he lost time in the alps he was
> desperate and transfused someone else's blood and crossed his fingers.
The whole world is as stupid as you are?
|
| | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 00:54:47
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
>> as
>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>> anyone
>> around him not inform him?
>>
>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a small
conspiracy?
Benjo
|
| | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 23:09:16
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
benjo maso wrote:
>
> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>>> detected as
>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>> anyone
>>> around him not inform him?
>>>
>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing
>>> Laboratory.....
>>
>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
>> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>
>
> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
> small conspiracy?
How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a hotel
room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big mistake?
Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 22:12:51
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On 24 Jul 2007 23:09:16 GMT, William Asher <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote:
>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>> small conspiracy?
>
>How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a hotel
>room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big mistake?
>Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
>
>--
>Bill Asher
These are seasoned pros. They should know how to do things by now. If
they knew they fucked up, why wouldn't Vino either withdraw or be sure
he didn't win the stage.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 05:42:33
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Jack Hollis <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote in
news:68cda3lp1k1cm5qaqmloh6l7brgk7ph1gi@4ax.com:
<snip >
>
> These are seasoned pros. They should know how to do things by now. If
> they knew they fucked up, why wouldn't Vino either withdraw or be sure
> he didn't win the stage.
History is rife with "seasoned pros" making colossally stupid blunders
for reasons nobody can really explain later. I think they didn't know
they got the bags wrong, or maybe they knew and didn't believe the tests
would detect it.
It's not that I want him to be a doper, it's just I don't see any motive
that makes sense for anyone to want to frame him. Nobody wins in this
deal except under bizarre conspiracy scenarios that make little to no
sense.
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:55:15
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
> History is rife with "seasoned pros" making colossally stupid blunders
> for reasons nobody can really explain later. I think they didn't know
> they got the bags wrong, or maybe they knew and didn't believe the tests
> would detect it.
I'm working on a variation: I know they /urine/ test every stage
winner, but I didn't think they drew blood from every stage winner. I
thought the blood draws were infrequent. (What's the latest on
frequency of in-Tour blood tests?)
Also, I'm pretty sure they need a /blood/ test to detect blood doping.
If I'm right about those points (please tell me), then maybe Vino/Astana
figured there wouldn't be any blood drawn that day.
Mark J.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 19:06:32
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Mark wrote:
> William Asher wrote:
>> History is rife with "seasoned pros" making colossally stupid
>> blunders for reasons nobody can really explain later. I think they
>> didn't know they got the bags wrong, or maybe they knew and didn't
>> believe the tests would detect it.
>
> I'm working on a variation: I know they /urine/ test every stage
> winner, but I didn't think they drew blood from every stage winner. I
> thought the blood draws were infrequent. (What's the latest on
> frequency of in-Tour blood tests?)
>
> Also, I'm pretty sure they need a /blood/ test to detect blood doping.
>
> If I'm right about those points (please tell me), then maybe
> Vino/Astana figured there wouldn't be any blood drawn that day.
But because it is so easy to detect homologous blood doping and the effects
last for so long, they would have assumed that it would be detected had
they done it intentionally. It is far more likely, almost certain, that
Astana got the bags get mixed up or received bags where the codes were
mixed up. If you tested the rest of Astana, you would undoubtedly find at
least one other rider with the same blood type as Vinokourov who also tests
positive for homologous blood doping.
Vinokourov's explanation of the test result is so unbelievably lame it
isn't even amusing. If I were Ferrari and I knew I had mixed up the labels
and I knew that Astana knew I had mixed up the labels, I would be looking
at relocating somewhere with bundles of cash after getting extensive
cosmetic surgery. Astana Group (the company, not the team) is probably a
totally mobbed up outfit and can't be very amused at this little "oopsie."
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 22:20:59
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
> Vinokourov's explanation of the test result is so unbelievably lame it
> isn't even amusing. If I were Ferrari and I knew I had mixed up the labels
> and I knew that Astana knew I had mixed up the labels, I would be looking
> at relocating somewhere with bundles of cash after getting extensive
> cosmetic surgery. Astana Group (the company, not the team) is probably a
> totally mobbed up outfit and can't be very amused at this little "oopsie."
Better not do a repeat prescription with any Tinkoff riders either, or
he'll have the Kazakh and Russian mafia feeding him polonium tea.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 21:16:57
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Donald Munro wrote:
> William Asher wrote:
>> Vinokourov's explanation of the test result is so unbelievably lame
>> it isn't even amusing. If I were Ferrari and I knew I had mixed up
>> the labels and I knew that Astana knew I had mixed up the labels, I
>> would be looking at relocating somewhere with bundles of cash after
>> getting extensive cosmetic surgery. Astana Group (the company, not
>> the team) is probably a totally mobbed up outfit and can't be very
>> amused at this little "oopsie."
>
> Better not do a repeat prescription with any Tinkoff riders either, or
> he'll have the Kazakh and Russian mafia feeding him polonium tea.
Maybe this was a mafia hit on Astana: some weird Russian mob payback thing
entirely unrelated to bicycling. That makes as much sense as positing that
Vinokourov intentionally blood doped thinking he might not get caught or
that the people making money off of cycling wanted to metaphorically kick
themselves in the nuts, again, by framing him.
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 01:40:42
From: benjo maso
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9977A4497A409FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> benjo maso wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>>>> detected as
>>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>>> anyone
>>>> around him not inform him?
>>>>
>>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing
>>>> Laboratory.....
>>>
>>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
>>> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>>
>>
>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>> small conspiracy?
>
> How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a hotel
> room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big mistake?
> Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
I'm not so sure. I can't imagine that Vino would have done a thing like that
without phoning his adviser dr.Michele Ferrari. Besides, yoy can be sure
that an experienced rider as Vino knows everything about doping. After all,
acoording to an ex-pro the latest about doping has become the most favorite
subject of conversation among riders, even surpassing sex and money.
Benjo
|
| | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 00:03:27
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
benjo maso wrote:
>
> I'm not so sure. I can't imagine that Vino would have done a thing
> like that without phoning his adviser dr.Michele Ferrari. Besides, yoy
> can be sure that an experienced rider as Vino knows everything about
> doping. After all, acoording to an ex-pro the latest about doping has
> become the most favorite subject of conversation among riders, even
> surpassing sex and money.
Vinokourov is laying there not paying much attention with the IV in his
ankle or wherever all set to go, it's late at night, the blood bags were
late getting to the rooms since there were press people in the lobby, the
guy responsible is nervous and in a hurry plus he's not really trained to
be hanging bags, Vinokourov dozes off for a few minutes, maybe he wakes up,
sees the bag is wrong, half of it went in, stops the infusion, but it's too
late. An even simpler explanation is that Ferrari got confused with his
bag codes. Whatever it was, bags got switched.
There's no stupidity there, only fatigue and unfamiliarity leading to
error, or some low-level staff person putting the wrong sticky label on the
wrong bag. Stuff like that happens *all* the time.
Most conspiracies are silly to think of in practical terms precisely
because of human error. If you can explain something in terms of a mistake
rather than a planned conspiracy, go with the mistake. That should be a
corollary of the principle of parsimony.
(I would accept the explanation that some
WADA/UCI/UNICEF/UNCLE/SPECTRE/THRUSH/KAOS/CONTROL agent intentionally
substituted bags. That would make even more sense than some guy who is
making minimum wage getting careless on the job.)
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 23:34:52
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns9977A4497A409FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> benjo maso wrote:
>
>>
>> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>>>> detected as
>>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>>> anyone
>>>> around him not inform him?
>>>>
>>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing
>>>> Laboratory.....
>>>
>>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
>>> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>>
>>
>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>> small conspiracy?
>
> How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a hotel
> room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big mistake?
> Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
I'm not surprised that you see the rest of the world as being as stupid as
yourself.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 23:47:48
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9977A4497A409FkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
>> benjo maso wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
>>> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>>>>> detected as
>>>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how
>>>>> could anyone
>>>>> around him not inform him?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing
>>>>> Laboratory.....
>>>>
>>>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler
>>>> explanation is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive
>>>> conspiracy.
>>>
>>>
>>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to
>>> a small conspiracy?
>>
>> How about a bunch of smart and very tired people late at night in a
>> hotel room doing things they aren't really trained to do making a big
>> mistake? Is that more believable than conspiracy or stupidity?
>
> I'm not surprised that you see the rest of the world as being as
> stupid as yourself.
Tom:
Gliblet ijnor lokiy flotet partibunom. Labic god frothy whenius i an
n'tragetry ptunmoch. Got? Bernetly partupdy lasertwipnothulominion
flockulenling pratly. Smeglet gnotzorp plotunionous flot hrat it tiat
whangfert.
http://tinyurl.com/ymsu3g
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:55:51
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
> Gliblet ijnor lokiy flotet partibunom. Labic god frothy whenius i an
> n'tragetry ptunmoch. Got? Bernetly partupdy lasertwipnothulominion
> flockulenling pratly. Smeglet gnotzorp plotunionous flot hrat it tiat
> whangfert.
New Fuentes codes. Much better than pet names, ask Tugboat.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 09:28:21
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
William Asher wrote:
> http://tinyurl.com/ymsu3g
Uploaded by "DopeFiend" :rolleyes: :eek: :tyler:
--
E. Dronkert
|
| | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 01:03:40
From: alex beascoechea
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl > wrote in message
news:5gne9jF3hni16U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1185317049.628735.63320@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jul 24, 6:39 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily
>>> detected as
>>> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>> anyone
>>> around him not inform him?
>>>
>>> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>>
>> As much as I'd like that to be the case, the much simpler explanation
>> is personal stupidity as opposed to the massive conspiracy.
>
>
> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
> small conspiracy?
>
> Benjo
His racing style is stupid beyond belief. Maybe it is a general trait?
|
| | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 23:36:05
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"alex beascoechea" <alex_beascoechea@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:46a68548$0$5709$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
>
> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
> news:5gne9jF3hni16U1@mid.individual.net...
>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>> small conspiracy?
>
> His racing style is stupid beyond belief. Maybe it is a general trait?
Well, you might have something there but nevertheless the idea that anyone
would be too stupid to get blood bags right has to be even dumber.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 24 Jul 2007 16:59:42
From: chester
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
More likely the labels got mixed on some bags of blood
Tom Kunich wrote:
> "alex beascoechea" <alex_beascoechea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:46a68548$0$5709$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
>> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
>> news:5gne9jF3hni16U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>>> small conspiracy?
>> His racing style is stupid beyond belief. Maybe it is a general trait?
>
> Well, you might have something there but nevertheless the idea that anyone
> would be too stupid to get blood bags right has to be even dumber.
>
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2007 02:39:03
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Do you have the slightest idea what you're talking about? Are you aware that
the ID is written directly on the bag?
"chester" <chester@hotmeal.com > wrote in message
news:f863pd$d0t$1@gnus01.u.washington.edu...
> More likely the labels got mixed on some bags of blood
>
>
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "alex beascoechea" <alex_beascoechea@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:46a68548$0$5709$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
>>> "benjo maso" <benjo.maso@chello.nl> wrote in message
>>> news:5gne9jF3hni16U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> But what about a personal stupidity almost beyond belief opposed to a
>>>> small conspiracy?
>>> His racing style is stupid beyond belief. Maybe it is a general trait?
>>
>> Well, you might have something there but nevertheless the idea that
>> anyone would be too stupid to get blood bags right has to be even dumber.
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 22:39:50
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com > wrote in message
news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
> According to the BBC.
>
> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> France.
>
> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
around him not inform him?
This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 21:53:34
From: VBadJuJu
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
>"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
>> According to the BBC.
>>
>> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
>> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
>> France.
>>
>> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
>> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
>Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
>homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
>around him not inform him?
>
>This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
Less diabolical and less stupid is a bag mix up.
It takes monumental stupidity to dope at this time with all the
scrutiny. It takes equal naivete to think he rebound was not aided in
some way.
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Date: 26 Jul 2007 00:07:02
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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"VBadJuJu" <none@ > wrote in message
news:cjeda3dmuv88d16p1fc81p94annknhiloj@4ax.com...
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
>>as
>>homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>anyone
>>around him not inform him?
>>
>>This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
> Less diabolical and less stupid is a bag mix up.
Do you read your own writing?
> It takes monumental stupidity to dope at this time with all the
> scrutiny. It takes equal naivete to think he rebound was not aided in
> some way.
Maybe you could explain why they would assign someone even stupider to
handle the blood bags when it would be so ultra critical?
So all those jour sans followed by stage wins that dot the entire history of
the Tour de France only mean that they were dopers?
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 10:47:56
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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in message <cjeda3dmuv88d16p1fc81p94annknhiloj@4ax.com >, VBadJuJu ('none@')
wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>>"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
>>> According to the BBC.
>>>
>>> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
>>> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
>>> France.
>>>
>>> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
>>> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>>
>>Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
>>as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>anyone around him not inform him?
>>
>>This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>>
> Less diabolical and less stupid is a bag mix up.
Still less diabolical and more likely is that they simply transfused direct
from the donor to Vinokourov, with no stored blood used at all.
Carrying blood bags around during this year's tour would be /very/ stupid.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 15:21:27
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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Simon Brooke wrote:
> Carrying blood bags around during this year's tour would be /very/ stupid.
Alien supplied blue cooler boxes are reputed to be easily disappear-able.
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Date: 25 Jul 2007 08:18:24
From: VBadJuJu
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
Simon Brooke <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote:
>in message <cjeda3dmuv88d16p1fc81p94annknhiloj@4ax.com>, VBadJuJu ('none@')
>wrote:
>
>> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>>"Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
>>>> According to the BBC.
>>>>
>>>> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
>>>> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
>>>> France.
>>>>
>>>> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
>>>> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>>>
>>>Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected
>>>as homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could
>>>anyone around him not inform him?
>>>
>>>This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>>>
>> Less diabolical and less stupid is a bag mix up.
>
>Still less diabolical and more likely is that they simply transfused direct
>from the donor to Vinokourov, with no stored blood used at all.
>
>Carrying blood bags around during this year's tour would be /very/ stupid.
I dunno that involving someone else is less stupid. Its all stupid to
a mind boggling degree and quite disappointing.
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 17:00:42
From: chester
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
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Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Jack Hollis" <xsleeper@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:nqqca39r6o2t7f7grjh2sg5qu3cmgg8hod@4ax.com...
>> According to the BBC.
>>
>> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
>> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
>> France.
>>
>> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
>> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> Is anyone wondering why Vino would resort to something as easily detected as
> homologous blood transfusions? Even if he was that stupid, how could anyone
> around him not inform him?
>
> This is beginning to smell like a French Drug Testing Laboratory.....
>
>
Or perhaps a dumbass who labeled some blood bags incorrectly
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 15:35:41
From: Andre
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
On Jul 24, 6:33 pm, "Crescentius Vespasianus" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> When I first laid eyes on Vino, I knew he was dirty.
>
> ----------------------
>
>
>
> > According to the BBC.
>
> > Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> > doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> > France.
>
> > Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> > Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> > Astana said two distinct types of red blood cells were found in
> > Vinokourov's sample indicating he had had a blood transfusion before
> > Saturday's stage.
>
> > If Vinokourov's B-sample also tests positive he faces a two-year ban.
>
> > Astana manager Marc Biver said: "It will be analysed before the end of
> > the week.
>
> > "Vino denies any blood manipulation. He says after his crash on July
> > 12, there may be blood anomalies.
>
> > Vinokourov was hotly tipped for this year's title but lost time in a
> > bad crash on stage five and slipped further back in the stages in the
> > Alps.
>
> > But he looked back to his best in a dominant time-trial on Saturday
> > and, although he dropped out of overall contention with a disastrous
> > display on Sunday, he won another arduous mountain stage on Monday.
>
> > Before their withdrawal Astana had been leading the team standings in
> > this year's Tour and had Andreas Kloeden in fifth place and Andrey
> > Kashechkin in eighth.
>
> > The organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw,
> > which was immediately accepted
>
> > Astana team statement
>
> > The team released a statement that said: "The anti-doping control on
> > Alexandre Vinokourov, which was carried out on July 21 after the time
> > trial in Albi, has tested positive.
>
> > "According to the ethical code of the Astana Cycling Team Alexandre
> > Vinokourov has been suspended from the team with immediate effect. The
> > rider has asked nevertheless for a B-sample analysis.
>
> > "Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de
> > France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Why didn't you tell us then?
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Date: 24 Jul 2007 22:33:19
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: Vino Positive - Astana Pulls Out
|
When I first laid eyes on Vino, I knew he was dirty.
----------------------
> According to the BBC.
>
> Pre-race favourite Alexandre Vinokourov tested positive for blood
> doping after winning Saturday's time-trial stage of the Tour de
> France.
>
> Vinokourov has asked for a second blood sample to be tested, but his
> Astana team have now withdrawn from the race.
>
> Astana said two distinct types of red blood cells were found in
> Vinokourov's sample indicating he had had a blood transfusion before
> Saturday's stage.
>
> If Vinokourov's B-sample also tests positive he faces a two-year ban.
>
> Astana manager Marc Biver said: "It will be analysed before the end of
> the week.
>
> "Vino denies any blood manipulation. He says after his crash on July
> 12, there may be blood anomalies.
>
> Vinokourov was hotly tipped for this year's title but lost time in a
> bad crash on stage five and slipped further back in the stages in the
> Alps.
>
> But he looked back to his best in a dominant time-trial on Saturday
> and, although he dropped out of overall contention with a disastrous
> display on Sunday, he won another arduous mountain stage on Monday.
>
> Before their withdrawal Astana had been leading the team standings in
> this year's Tour and had Andreas Kloeden in fifth place and Andrey
> Kashechkin in eighth.
>
> The organisers of the Tour de France invited the team to withdraw,
> which was immediately accepted
>
> Astana team statement
>
> The team released a statement that said: "The anti-doping control on
> Alexandre Vinokourov, which was carried out on July 21 after the time
> trial in Albi, has tested positive.
>
> "According to the ethical code of the Astana Cycling Team Alexandre
> Vinokourov has been suspended from the team with immediate effect. The
> rider has asked nevertheless for a B-sample analysis.
>
> "Informed by the Astana management, the organisers of the Tour de
> France invited the team to withdraw, which was immediately accepted."
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