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Main
Date: 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40
From:
Subject: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
stage win? I just dont get it.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 13:25:22
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 30, 5:42 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:05:21 -0700, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >On Jul 29, 7:24 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40 -0700, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> >These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> >> >anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> >> >competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> >> >and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> >> >stage win? I just dont get it.
>
> >> They do not respect a custom or tradition, they respect the other riders and
> >> their teams. You can attack but all it will do is piss everyone off after they
> >> chase you down. If the wind and terrain make a break possible, someone will take
> >> it, but usually that doesn't happen.
>
> >> Ron
>
> >I guess I dont really understand the sport. If it was a game of tennis
> >where it was all about skill I could understand that if someone beat
> >you for the past 19 games there would be little point to try to win on
> >the 20th try, but this is more an endurance sport. The lead guy could
> >be totally drained by the last stage so you should at least test him.
>
> The single most important fact of bike racing is aerodynamic drag. The man in
> second place has the advantage and at the least can ride in the slipstream of
> the rider in front. What this means tactically is that on a relatively flat
> stage without a strong sidewind you cannot ride away from your opponent unless
> you are vastly stronger than he and his team or he let's you go.
>
> With a jersey at stake nobody will let you ride away. And nobody, or more
> importantly, no team is so much stronger than another that anyone can just ride
> the competition off his wheel on the flat.
>
> The last stage in particular no rider even if he's three hours down on GC will
> get away without the sprinter's teams running him down and if the guy's a GC
> threat then the leader's team will bring him back. And if you think you are so
> much stronger than the other 150 guys that you can stomp on them like that, they
> will make a particular point of proving otherwise.
>
> But, like I said sometimes the terrain or conditions make it possible to make a
> selection. By design, this rarely occurs on the final stage, the promoter wants
> the big screaming gang to all blast into Paris together.
>
> Ron- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Cool. Thanks for the education.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 04:14:10
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 30, 4:12 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 28, 10:39 pm, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> > anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> > competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> > and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> > stage win? I just dont get it.
>
> Dear Newbie -
>
> Please go away.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
I thought it a very reasonable question which sparked some debate and
some solid answers.
I imagine you just had a bad day and wanted to restore a battered ego
by making such a "butch" remark.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 10:48:18
From: Mango
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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<taxthis2007@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1185687580.971281.166450@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> stage win? I just dont get it.
>
If you are a good enough sprinter then you will. However none of the top
three can match it with the sprinters. Evans only chance would have been a
serious crash that prevented Contador from finishing. He could never have
gotten a break on the field. Its not only tradition that limits attacks on
the final day. Its the practicality that an attack has virtually no chance
of success.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 01:12:18
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 28, 10:39 pm, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> stage win? I just dont get it.
Dear Newbie -
Please go away.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 01:05:21
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 29, 7:24 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40 -0700, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> >anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> >competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> >and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> >stage win? I just dont get it.
>
> They do not respect a custom or tradition, they respect the other riders and
> their teams. You can attack but all it will do is piss everyone off after they
> chase you down. If the wind and terrain make a break possible, someone will take
> it, but usually that doesn't happen.
>
> Ron
I guess I dont really understand the sport. If it was a game of tennis
where it was all about skill I could understand that if someone beat
you for the past 19 games there would be little point to try to win on
the 20th try, but this is more an endurance sport. The lead guy could
be totally drained by the last stage so you should at least test him.
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 08:42:29
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 01:05:21 -0700, taxthis2007@yahoo.com wrote:
>On Jul 29, 7:24 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40 -0700, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
>> >anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
>> >competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
>> >and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
>> >stage win? I just dont get it.
>>
>> They do not respect a custom or tradition, they respect the other riders and
>> their teams. You can attack but all it will do is piss everyone off after they
>> chase you down. If the wind and terrain make a break possible, someone will take
>> it, but usually that doesn't happen.
>>
>> Ron
>
>I guess I dont really understand the sport. If it was a game of tennis
>where it was all about skill I could understand that if someone beat
>you for the past 19 games there would be little point to try to win on
>the 20th try, but this is more an endurance sport. The lead guy could
>be totally drained by the last stage so you should at least test him.
The single most important fact of bike racing is aerodynamic drag. The man in
second place has the advantage and at the least can ride in the slipstream of
the rider in front. What this means tactically is that on a relatively flat
stage without a strong sidewind you cannot ride away from your opponent unless
you are vastly stronger than he and his team or he let's you go.
With a jersey at stake nobody will let you ride away. And nobody, or more
importantly, no team is so much stronger than another that anyone can just ride
the competition off his wheel on the flat.
The last stage in particular no rider even if he's three hours down on GC will
get away without the sprinter's teams running him down and if the guy's a GC
threat then the leader's team will bring him back. And if you think you are so
much stronger than the other 150 guys that you can stomp on them like that, they
will make a particular point of proving otherwise.
But, like I said sometimes the terrain or conditions make it possible to make a
selection. By design, this rarely occurs on the final stage, the promoter wants
the big screaming gang to all blast into Paris together.
Ron
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 18:53:48
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:42:29 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>The last stage in particular no rider even if he's three hours down on GC will
>get away without the sprinter's teams running him down and if the guy's a GC
>threat then the leader's team will bring him back.
Everything you say is true about the difficulty of an escape on the
last stage, but it has been done in the last decade or two. Jeff
Pierce won the stage from a break, as did (I think) Eddy Seigneur
(sp).
The last time a GC contendor got a little gap was last year or the
year before by Vinokourov, but really that was a long sprint. The
last read "break" that I can think of by a GC rider was 20-25 years
ago by Hinault and Zootemelk, though that did not change GC since they
were in first and second anyway.
--
JT
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Remove "remove" to reply
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 23:29:26
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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In article <prqsa31oft5o8rdlljr2cguaborn03hcvp@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:42:29 -0400, RonSonic
> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >The last stage in particular no rider even if he's three hours down on GC
> >will
> >get away without the sprinter's teams running him down and if the guy's a GC
> >threat then the leader's team will bring him back.
>
> Everything you say is true about the difficulty of an escape on the
> last stage, but it has been done in the last decade or two. Jeff
> Pierce won the stage from a break, as did (I think) Eddy Seigneur
> (sp).
>
> The last time a GC contendor got a little gap was last year or the
> year before by Vinokourov, but really that was a long sprint. The
> last read "break" that I can think of by a GC rider was 20-25 years
> ago by Hinault and Zootemelk, though that did not change GC since they
> were in first and second anyway.
It should be said that I have always understood the tradition as "it's a
parade until the Champs Elysee."
They do, what, 8 laps of that, making up the last 22 km or so of an
already short stage (130 k this year).
I think the best formulation was someone who, answering the question of
what would happen to a rider who tried a breakaway before then, said the
entire peloton would chase down the offender, and then they'd pelt him
with their water bottles.
Again, I have no doubt that the bets would be off on a day when there
was something that could be meaningfully contested. The "truce" is
really more about the idea that GC no-hopers aren't going to be allowed
to go and do their usual 10-minutes ahead thing. The reason seems to be
a combination of letting the peloton relax and have an easy and
celebratory ride in, and it probably makes for a better spectacle to
have the whole pack ride onto the Champs at once, and let 'er rip for
the last 20 km.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 30 Jul 2007 10:10:13
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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taxthis2007@yahoo.com wrote:
> The lead guy could
> be totally drained by the last stage so you should at least test him.
It's a team sport.
--
E. Dronkert
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 16:02:06
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 29, 5:53?pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Jul 29, 3:20 pm, dupedcycl...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Let's take a look at the last two who broke the code, and attacked the
> > last day. More specifically, their character.
>
> > Rumsas.......Is he the one who left his wife to rot in a French Prison
> > for three or four months
> > Vino.........Was he banned from 2006 Tour for cheating, and tossed
> > from 2007 Tour for cheating?
>
> > Also, If Evans could attack to win, he would have earlier........
>
> Vino didn't "break the code." He attacked on the Champs
> to win the stage. You know, bike racing. It was pretty cool.
>
> Ben
enabler
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 22:53:45
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 29, 3:20 pm, dupedcycl...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Let's take a look at the last two who broke the code, and attacked the
> last day. More specifically, their character.
>
> Rumsas.......Is he the one who left his wife to rot in a French Prison
> for three or four months
> Vino.........Was he banned from 2006 Tour for cheating, and tossed
> from 2007 Tour for cheating?
>
> Also, If Evans could attack to win, he would have earlier........
Vino didn't "break the code." He attacked on the Champs
to win the stage. You know, bike racing. It was pretty cool.
Ben
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 15:30:48
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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In article
<1185687580.971281.166450@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com >
,
taxthis2007@yahoo.com wrote:
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> stage win? I just dont get it.
Because the sprinters and sprinter's teams are out
there to win time bonuses also. That is heavy
competition.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 15:20:16
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 29, 9:06?am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 29, 1:39 am, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> > anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> > competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> > and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> > stage win? I just dont get it.
>
> In 1975, Eddy Merckx was 2nd at the start of the last stage and
> attacked all day,
> however, he was unable to move up in the standings. More recently,
> other riders have tried to
> move up in the standings on the last stage. The last person to do so
> was
> Vinokourov, who moved up from 6th to 5th in 2005, and in 2002 Rumsas
> attacked
> on the last stage to try to move up from 3rd to 2nd without success.
>
> -ilan
Let's take a look at the last two who broke the code, and attacked the
last day. More specifically, their character.
Rumsas.......Is he the one who left his wife to rot in a French Prison
for three or four months
Vino.........Was he banned from 2006 Tour for cheating, and tossed
from 2007 Tour for cheating?
Also, If Evans could attack to win, he would have earlier........
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 10:24:29
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40 -0700, taxthis2007@yahoo.com wrote:
>These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
>anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
>competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
>and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
>stage win? I just dont get it.
They do not respect a custom or tradition, they respect the other riders and
their teams. You can attack but all it will do is piss everyone off after they
chase you down. If the wind and terrain make a break possible, someone will take
it, but usually that doesn't happen.
Ron
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 17:34:12
From: Jack Hollis
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:24:29 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:39:40 -0700, taxthis2007@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
>>anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
>>competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
>>and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
>>stage win? I just dont get it.
>
>They do not respect a custom or tradition, they respect the other riders and
>their teams. You can attack but all it will do is piss everyone off after they
>chase you down. If the wind and terrain make a break possible, someone will take
>it, but usually that doesn't happen.
Exactly right. The chances that Evans could have won the race on the
final stage are extremely remote and he would have made a lot of
enemies for nothing.
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 14:06:15
From:
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 29, 1:39 am, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> stage win? I just dont get it.
In 1975, Eddy Merckx was 2nd at the start of the last stage and
attacked all day,
however, he was unable to move up in the standings. More recently,
other riders have tried to
move up in the standings on the last stage. The last person to do so
was
Vinokourov, who moved up from 6th to 5th in 2005, and in 2002 Rumsas
attacked
on the last stage to try to move up from 3rd to 2nd without success.
-ilan
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Date: 29 Jul 2007 12:59:24
From: ctrl-alt-delete
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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<taxthis2007@yahoo.com > schreef in bericht
news:1185687580.971281.166450@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage? Lets say you are in second by a few seconds
> and know you can win the final stage. Do you really give up even the
> stage win? I just dont get it.
Evans should have started with a time trial bike and go for it 15 km before
the finnish at the moment contador is drinking his champagne,not done ok,
but hey this is sport.
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Date: 28 Jul 2007 23:05:49
From: Ernst Blofeld
Subject: Re: Why dont they compete in the final stage??
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On Jul 28, 10:39 pm, taxthis2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> These guys sacrifice their health to win taking drugs and doing
> anything else to cheat so why do they respect the custom of not
> competing on final stage?
Fignon says hey.
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