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Main
Date: 31 Jul 2007 10:50:25
From: samson
Subject: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
"The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
play by the rules - including the team managers."
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 10:10:02
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
And my question from six months ago has been answered:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/958047e38c436801
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 17:32:26
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
wrote:
>
> And my question from six months ago has been answered:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/958047e38c436801
>
>
We would have paid more attention to you if you didn't hate America.
--
Bill Asher
p.s. Nice work.
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 16:55:46
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Aug 1, 6:37 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> > This is why I put this up -->six months ago<-- when The Surge was
> > being promoted:
> >http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth.png
>
> Heh. I hadn't thought of that and I should have. They haven't adjusted
> their casualty figures for seasonal cycles.
The red dots are post-Surge:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth-july07.png
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 00:09:40
From: Robert Chung
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 10:52 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
> is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
> decreased
You mean this kind of stuff?
"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military is expressing hope that the
recent troop buildup in Iraq is making strides as commanders point to
the American death toll in the war zone -- the lowest monthly total
since November. As of late Tuesday, 73 U.S. troops were killed in
July, a striking drop from earlier this year when spring brought the
worst three-month period for U.S. troop deaths since the war began:
104 in April, 126 in May and 101 in June." (from
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/31/iraq.main/)
This is why I put this up -- >six months ago<-- when The Surge was
being promoted:
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth.png
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 16:37:50
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
Robert Chung wrote:
> On Jul 31, 10:52 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something
>> interesting is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past
>> month has decreased
>
> You mean this kind of stuff?
>
> "BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military is expressing hope that the
> recent troop buildup in Iraq is making strides as commanders point to
> the American death toll in the war zone -- the lowest monthly total
> since November. As of late Tuesday, 73 U.S. troops were killed in
> July, a striking drop from earlier this year when spring brought the
> worst three-month period for U.S. troop deaths since the war began:
> 104 in April, 126 in May and 101 in June." (from
> http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/07/31/iraq.main/)
>
> This is why I put this up -->six months ago<-- when The Surge was
> being promoted:
> http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/temp/deathsbymonth.png
>
>
Heh. I hadn't thought of that and I should have. They haven't adjusted
their casualty figures for seasonal cycles.
Ok, now *I* feel shame.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 18:47:41
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 5:39 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> The confession was after he left Discovery, of course, not before he was hired. It's not what he had done, it's what he had been reasonably proven to have done.
>
I agree with you (though since you had written that Basso *has* been
cleared, I assumed incorrectly that you were unaware of his subsequent
confession), but again, the Basso case as it has played out so far
makes it easier to black list based on smoke alone.
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 15:31:34
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 3:27 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Jul 31, 1:52 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
> > is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
> > decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
> > essentially confined to their base in Basra.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> It's because there has been an informal truce reached with the Sunnis
> (basically the Baathists) who are turning their guns vs. Al Qaeda.
>
> After they get done with AQ, then they'll turn them back on us.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.
I would suggest that you limit your comments to things you know
something about, but that would pretty much bring your contributions
to a halt.
Fred
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 14:27:28
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 1:52 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
> is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
> decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
> essentially confined to their base in Basra.
Dumbass -
It's because there has been an informal truce reached with the Sunnis
(basically the Baathists) who are turning their guns vs. Al Qaeda.
After they get done with AQ, then they'll turn them back on us.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:52:28
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 14:27:28 -0700, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringioni@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>On Jul 31, 1:52 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
>> is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
>> decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
>> essentially confined to their base in Basra.
>
>
>
>
>Dumbass -
>
>
>It's because there has been an informal truce reached with the Sunnis
>(basically the Baathists) who are turning their guns vs. Al Qaeda.
>
>After they get done with AQ, then they'll turn them back on us.
Shhhhh, we'll be getting them pissed off at Iran somewhere between now and then.
Ron
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:20:53
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 10:11 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for your
> sport?
Dude,
I post to rbr. How low could my shame threshold be?
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 18:48:14
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:20:53 -0000, rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
>On Jul 31, 10:11 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for your
>> sport?
>
>Dude,
>
>I post to rbr. How low could my shame threshold be?
POTM
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:52:41
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
wrote:
> On Jul 31, 10:11 pm, William Asher <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame
>> for your sport?
>
> Dude,
>
> I post to rbr. How low could my shame threshold be?
But see, you're not off the back, so to speak, so the training hard and
expending effort while feeling shame isn't the same for you as it is for
Wiggins. Wiggins gets up in the morning, tries to go for a ride, and says
"screw it, some damned doper is going to win anyway" so he goes back in and
rubs some of that special cream the team sent him on his aching legs and
feels better.
Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
essentially confined to their base in Basra. That suggests that the
insurgency has been suppressed in the north by the surge but is very latent
and will pop up again as bad as before once troop levels decrease.
--
Bill Asher
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:11:01
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 1:41 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
>
> Nice.
>
> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.
While I'm not in the smoke=fire camp, your example bolsters that
position since Basso confessed to attempted doping in connection to
Operation Puerto. I suppose one could argue that attempted doping is
only smoke, but no fire, the intent to commit arson was clearly there.
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 21:39:13
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
Victor Kan wrote:
> On Jul 31, 1:41 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
> wrote:
>> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
>>
>> Nice.
>>
>> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.
>
> While I'm not in the smoke=fire camp, your example bolsters that
> position since Basso confessed to attempted doping in connection to
> Operation Puerto. I suppose one could argue that attempted doping is
> only smoke, but no fire, the intent to commit arson was clearly there.
>
>
The confession was after he left Discovery, of course, not before he was hired. It's not what he had done, it's what he had been reasonably proven to have done.
Dan
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 22:40:57
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:5_Nri.12157$eY.9576@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>
> The confession was after he left Discovery, of course, not before he was
> hired. It's not what he had done, it's what he had been reasonably proven
> to have done.
The lynch mob mentality thrives among people who couldn't even ride on the
same road with any of the Pros if they were driving motorbikes.
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 12:45:20
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 9:03 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> > > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>
> > > He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
> > > Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
> > Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
> > Moreni or Eric Boyer.
>
> Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
> contract afterer OP.
Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
Basso.
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:11:33
From: William Asher
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
wrote:
> On Jul 31, 9:03 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
>> rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
>> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
>> > > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>>
>> > > He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
>> > > Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
>> > Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
>> > Moreni or Eric Boyer.
>>
>> Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
>> contract afterer OP.
>
> Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
> suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
> because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
> Basso.
>
>
Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for your
sport?
--
Bill Asher
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 21:01:47
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
> Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for
> your
> sport?
Is that a serious issue? Are you actually filled with shame for your sport,
or some of the people in it? I don't see any evidence that cycling is much
different from anything else in life. Are you ashamed for the place you work
because white-collar crime is rampant in high places in corporate life? I'm
not saying you shouldn't be, but just wondering why you are singling out
cycling.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"William Asher" <gcnp58@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:Xns997E86248623AFkldeltaC@130.133.1.4...
> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 31, 9:03 pm, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
>>> rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
>>> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
>>> > > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>>>
>>> > > He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
>>> > > Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
>>> > Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
>>> > Moreni or Eric Boyer.
>>>
>>> Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
>>> contract afterer OP.
>>
>> Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
>> suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
>> because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
>> Basso.
>>
>>
>
> Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for
> your
> sport?
>
> --
> Bill Asher
|
| |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 11:32:55
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <no...@noone.net > wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>
> He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
> Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
Moreni or Eric Boyer.
|
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 21:03:25
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
rechungREMOVETHIS@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
> >
> > He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
> > Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
> Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
> Moreni or Eric Boyer.
Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
contract afterer OP.
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 10:55:48
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 1:20 pm, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
> On Jul 31, 12:28 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> > > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>
> > > As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
> > > that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
> > > whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
> > > concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
> > > think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
> > > because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
> > > have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
> > > last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
> > > Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
>
> > > "The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
> > > running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
> > > What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
> > > someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
> > > of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
> > > but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
> > > play by the rules - including the team managers."
>
> > Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
> > known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
> > should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
> > of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
> > have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
> > rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
> > doping as an amateur.
> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sinkewitz fired after confession
>
> Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
>
> You cannot defend this sport they have let you down- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
2nd offense.
One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
resources.
That works for you all?
Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
prove it.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:59:25
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
> Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
> them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
> done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
> 2nd offense.
> One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
> dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
> riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
> The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
> fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
> to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
> resources.
> That works for you all?
> Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
> prove it.
> Bill C
Ironically, the best way (in my opinion) to expose and deal with the issue
of doping is to make the penalties for first-time offense and/or confession
*less* severe, and then go for the guilotine on the second offense. The
worst thing about the silly paperwork the riders had to sign was that it
dramatically intensified the desire to hide and not admit the problem
exists.
But I do agree with Wiggins that Bruyneel was guilty of something, just not
sure exactly what, when he hired Basso. I'd feel differently about it if
Bruyneel had stood on a soapbox and proclaimed everything that was wrong
about the current situation and why he felt teams should abandon the code of
ethics and create something workable. But to pretend that what he was doing
(by hiring Basso) was within the established framework was a bit of a
stretch.
Of course, if the risk to a team (in hiring someone who might be dirty) was
made severe enough, it shouldn't be a problem.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1185904548.321639.61530@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 31, 1:20 pm, anton2...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Jul 31, 12:28 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
>>
>> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
>> > > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>>
>> > > As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
>> > > that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
>> > > whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
>> > > concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism:
>> > > "I
>> > > think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
>> > > because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
>> > > have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
>> > > last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
>> > > Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro
>> > > contract.
>>
>> > > "The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys
>> > > are
>> > > running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
>> > > What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
>> > > someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown
>> > > out
>> > > of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
>> > > but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
>> > > play by the rules - including the team managers."
>>
>> > Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
>> > known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
>> > should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
>> > of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
>> > have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
>> > rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
>> > doping as an amateur.
>> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Sinkewitz fired after confession
>>
>> Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
>>
>> You cannot defend this sport they have let you down- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
> them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
> done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
> 2nd offense.
> One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
> dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
> riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
> The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
> fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
> to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
> resources.
> That works for you all?
> Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
> prove it.
> Bill C
>
|
| | | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 18:50:16
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:59:25 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
>Ironically, the best way (in my opinion) to expose and deal with the issue
>of doping is to make the penalties for first-time offense and/or confession
>*less* severe, and then go for the guilotine on the second offense.
I completely agree on the first offense, but am not so sure about the
second and others -- I think making them too severe will result in the
same sort of nonsense the second time around.
--
JT
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 16:19:57
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:NoNri.30223$2v1.25844@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
>
> Ironically, the best way (in my opinion) to expose and deal with the issue
> of doping is to make the penalties for first-time offense and/or
> confession *less* severe, and then go for the guilotine on the second
> offense. The worst thing about the silly paperwork the riders had to sign
> was that it dramatically intensified the desire to hide and not admit the
> problem exists.
That doesn't address the issue that riders (and probably team managements
too) don't believe they are going to get caught, which fosters the problem
of "if he's gonna dope, I gotta dope too to keep the status quo".
|
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 10:20:17
From:
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 12:28 pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <no...@noone.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>
> > As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
> > that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
> > whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
> > concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
> > think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
> > because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
> > have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
> > last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
> > Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
>
> > "The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
> > running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
> > What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
> > someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
> > of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
> > but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
> > play by the rules - including the team managers."
>
> Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
> known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
> should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
> of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
> have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
> rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
> doping as an amateur.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sinkewitz fired after confession
Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
You cannot defend this sport they have let you down
|
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 10:41:22
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
anton2468@aol.com wrote:
> Sinkewitz fired after confession
>
> Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
>
> You cannot defend this sport they have let you down
>
Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
Nice.
Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.
Dan
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:31:55
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On 07/31/2007 11:41 AM, in article
hvKri.32605$C96.21606@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net, "Dan Connelly"
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people
> on smoke.
Since when?
Last I heard, he was serving a 2 year ban.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
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Date: 01 Aug 2007 03:27:45
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
> On 07/31/2007 11:41 AM, in article
> hvKri.32605$C96.21606@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net, "Dan Connelly"
> <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>
>
>> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people
>> on smoke.
>
>
> Since when?
>
> Last I heard, he was serving a 2 year ban.
>
As of when he signed with Discovery. Basso is more than smoke now, obviously.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 22:21:34
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On 07/31/2007 09:27 PM, in article
R4Tri.30863$2v1.9966@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net, "Dan Connelly"
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> Steven L. Sheffield wrote:
>> On 07/31/2007 11:41 AM, in article
>> hvKri.32605$C96.21606@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net, "Dan Connelly"
>> <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list
>>> people
>>> on smoke.
>>
>>
>> Since when?
>>
>> Last I heard, he was serving a 2 year ban.
>>
>
>
> As of when he signed with Discovery. Basso is more than smoke now, obviously.
Ah ... "had been cleared", not "has been cleared" ... makes sense now.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:48:49
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote in message
news:hvKri.32605$C96.21606@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says
> someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires
> you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody
> will hire you, as word gets around.
>
Kind harsh punishment for riding a Trek, don'tcha think?
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 10:15:47
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
>> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says
>> someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires
>> you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody
>> will hire you, as word gets around.
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> Kind harsh punishment for riding a Trek, don'tcha think?
Wait till you see what they do to people who ride BMC's, never mind
Bianchi's.
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| | | | | |
Date: 01 Aug 2007 15:10:55
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:15:47 +0200, Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>Dan Connelly wrote:
>>> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says
>>> someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires
>>> you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody
>>> will hire you, as word gets around.
>
>Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> Kind harsh punishment for riding a Trek, don'tcha think?
>
>Wait till you see what they do to people who ride BMC's, never mind
>Bianchi's.
I saw a Festina Specialized listed for sale real cheap.
Ron
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 18:46:30
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:41:22 -0700, Dan Connelly
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
>anton2468@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Sinkewitz fired after confession
>>
>> Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
>>
>> You cannot defend this sport they have let you down
>>
>
>Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
>
Not just word, but policy of the association of employers.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:48:22
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:46:30 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 10:41:22 -0700, Dan Connelly
><d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote:
>
>>anton2468@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> Sinkewitz fired after confession
>>>
>>> Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
>>>
>>> You cannot defend this sport they have let you down
>>>
>>
>>Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
>>
>
>Not just word, but policy of the association of employers.
They've formalized the schoolyard "cooties" taunt.
Ron
|
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Date: 31 Jul 2007 20:47:14
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> anton2468@aol.com wrote:
> > Sinkewitz fired after confession
> >
> > Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.
> >
> > You cannot defend this sport they have let you down
> >
> Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.
> Nice.
> Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.
Really, then why has he recived a 24 month quarentene? And why didn't
he appeal it?
--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >
Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.
|
| |
Date: 31 Jul 2007 09:28:30
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel
|
On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <no...@noone.net > wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07
>
> As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
> that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
> whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
> concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
> think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
> because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
> have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
> last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
> Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
>
> "The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
> running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
> What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
> someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
> of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
> but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
> play by the rules - including the team managers."
Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
doping as an amateur.
Bill C
|
|
