Worst Tour coverage ever

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Date: 07 Jul 2007 21:51:23
From:
Subject: Worst Tour coverage ever

This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.

The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
post race interview.

My other observations of the race are:

1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
give much time to rectify a problem.

2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.

-ilan

Date: 09 Jul 2007 17:56:42
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> post race interview.
>
> My other observations of the race are:
>
> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>
> -ilan

I listened to the Eurosport English coverage today, which was a whole
lot better, but was still wanting. In particular, there was a long
discussion with Sean Kelly and Emma James regarding insurance for
racers, but they never made reference to the recent French decision
awarding millions of Euros to a track cyclist and which was going to
bankrupt the French federation.

-ilan

Date: 09 Jul 2007 02:29:49
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 2:23 pm, "William R. Mattil" <wrmat...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> And I pointed out that one of his tours was due to a much better
> rider getting a broken collarbone. It could also be argued that part of
> his success was also due to Hinault have had medical issues ??
> Recovering from knee surgery ? Anyway .... My point was that he was just
> a rider who won the Tour twice.

Dumbass,

Nobody "just" wins the Tour de France twice.

> While we are at it ... it could also be argued that had Lemond been
> given the green light to go after him when they were teammates then one
> of those victories wouldn't have been his either.

Cool, another virtual TdF for Greg that we have been
overlooking all these years!

BTW, if Fignon hadn't had a bad knee in 1985, he might
have virtually defeated Lemond's virtual victory.

Ben

Date: 09 Jul 2007 10:29:04
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Cool, another virtual TdF for Greg that we have been
> overlooking all these years!
>
> BTW, if Fignon hadn't had a bad knee in 1985, he might
> have virtually defeated Lemond's virtual victory.

We need to complete development of the clustered super-computer software
needed to track virtual wins and losses soon.

Date: 08 Jul 2007 22:50:47
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 8:27 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 8, 1:23 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 5:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> > > minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> > > 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> > > give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > it's customary that riders have the opportunity to have their bike
> > checked in advance but usually at (UCI) TTs there is some type of
> > corral where you enter and your bike is officially checked just before
> > the start. that way you can't pass a legal bike and then make changes
> > before riding.
>
> For the Alpe d'Huez ITT, many riders had to continually fix up their
> bikes because of weight < 6.8 kg, and the delay was certainly much
> greater than 5 minutes.
>

dumbass,

this might not be the best system, it's not uncommon that a bike isn't
qualified minutes before the rider is to start.

Date: 08 Jul 2007 21:37:35
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 3:09 pm, rechungREMOVET...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> > there [...] It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> > seconds
>
> I'll see your Fignon and raise you Virenque. That guy whines even when
> he says "Hello."

I'm thankful they didn't hire him instead. I just saw him on TV in an
interview dedicated to his whining about the psychological effects due
to crashing on his face last year.

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 13:53:54
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 9:49 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> > there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> > In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> > colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> > Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> > Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> > seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> > Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> > memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> > position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> > list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> > that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> > is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> > The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> > Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> > and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> > this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> > times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> > Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> > post race interview.
>
> > My other observations of the race are:
>
> > 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> > minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> > 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> > give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> > 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> > race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> > actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>
> > -ilan
>
> Fignon today: "They should cut down all these trees so we could see
> better from the helicopter."
>
> -ilan

Now I like the guy again! ;-)

Joseph

Date: 08 Jul 2007 20:20:56
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 9:55 pm, Davey Crockett <d4Qaveycrock...@azurservers.com >
wrote:
> ilan...@gmail.com writes:
> > On Jul 8, 8:22 pm, Davey Crockett <d4Qaveycrock...@azurservers.com>
> > wrote:
> >> "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> writes:
> >> > Two good things on France2 today -
>
> >> > Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
> >> > They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.
>
> >> Didn't you just love the one in the red dress ?
>
> >> --
> >> Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
> >> -
> >> WARNING:
> >> It is dangerous to your Health to be Right when the Government is
> >> Wrong
>
> > There was the older skinny mystery woman with dreadlocks. I have no
> > idea who she was, except that she understood French, because she
> > laughed at some stupid joke.
>
> I must have missed that one
>
> I was watching a recording and skipping bits, preferring to ride and
> watch later
>
> --
> Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
> -
> If you make peaceful change impossible, you make violent change inevitable
> --John F. Kennedy

I watched it on my ride.

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 19:49:02
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> post race interview.
>
> My other observations of the race are:
>
> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>
> -ilan

Fignon today: "They should cut down all these trees so we could see
better from the helicopter."

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 23:14:58
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

ilanpsi wrote:
> Fignon today: "They should cut down all these trees so we could see
> better from the helicopter."

Someone should tell him about Agent Orange.

Date: 08 Jul 2007 18:43:35
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

In article <4691541d$0$5556$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com >,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:

> ilanpsi wrote:
> > Fignon today: "They should cut down all these trees so we could see
> > better from the helicopter."
>
> Someone should tell him about Agent Orange.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange_%28band%29

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 08 Jul 2007 19:46:22
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 8:22 pm, Davey Crockett <d4Qaveycrock...@azurservers.com >
wrote:
> "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> writes:
> > Two good things on France2 today -
>
> > Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
> > They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.
>
> Didn't you just love the one in the red dress ?
>
> --
> Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
> -
> WARNING:
> It is dangerous to your Health to be Right when the Government is
> Wrong

There was the older skinny mystery woman with dreadlocks. I have no
idea who she was, except that she understood French, because she
laughed at some stupid joke.

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 21:55:09
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

ilanpsi@gmail.com writes:

> On Jul 8, 8:22 pm, Davey Crockett <d4Qaveycrock...@azurservers.com>
> wrote:
>> "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr> writes:
>> > Two good things on France2 today -
>>
>> > Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
>> > They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.
>>
>> Didn't you just love the one in the red dress ?
>>
>> --
>> Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
>> -
>> WARNING:
>> It is dangerous to your Health to be Right when the Government is
>> Wrong
>
> There was the older skinny mystery woman with dreadlocks. I have no
> idea who she was, except that she understood French, because she
> laughed at some stupid joke.

I must have missed that one

I was watching a recording and skipping bits, preferring to ride and
watch later

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
If you make peaceful change impossible, you make violent change inevitable
--John F. Kennedy

Date: 08 Jul 2007 19:44:34
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 1:23 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Jul 7, 5:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> > minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> > 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> > give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> dumbass,
>
> it's customary that riders have the opportunity to have their bike
> checked in advance but usually at (UCI) TTs there is some type of
> corral where you enter and your bike is officially checked just before
> the start. that way you can't pass a legal bike and then make changes
> before riding.

Oh, consistent with the terrible France TV coverage is the fact that
they were interviewing the riders as they dropped off and picked up
their bikes, e.g., were asking Vinokourov probing questions 5 minutes
before the start of his race. He is definitely extremely well mannered
because he gave a short polite response.

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 07:55:22
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 1:27 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:17:39 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 8, 12:38 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:10:15 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On Jul 8, 2:47 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> >> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>
> >> >> I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
> >> >> Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
> >> >> the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
> >> >> he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.
>
> >> >No doubt he was great, but that is the price he pays in my book for
> >> >losing the TdF with the smallest margin ever due to his less than
> >> >perfect aerodynamics. That's the way is always seems to go. A career
> >> >of great accomplishments is near forgotten in the shadow of one
> >> >mistake.
>
> >> So you're buying into that flawed view and perpetuating it...
>
> >The view that he lost due to less than optimal aerodynamics? I do
> >believe that.
>
> The guy had superb aerodynamics but worse than one or two other guys.
> He schooled people in TTs due to fitness, position and motivation. He
> won two Tours of France and one TOur of Italy. And yet it's somehow
> funny that he can criticise another riders position because he was
> beaten in one race!

Yes. Sad but true.

Joseph

Date: 08 Jul 2007 06:09:02
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there [...] It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds

I'll see your Fignon and raise you Virenque. That guy whines even when
he says "Hello."

Date: 08 Jul 2007 12:04:00
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> post race interview.
>
> My other observations of the race are:
>
> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>
> -ilan

There is similar criticism of Fignon as well as requests for the
return of Thevenet on France 2's forum (subject heading "Fignon,
enough!"): http://forums.france2.fr/france2/cyclisme/fignon-suffit-sujet_3836_1.htm
Someone there explains that Thevenet has been hired by ASO for public
relations. France TV's main commentator Thierry Adam has made such an
impression that no one on this forum realises he has replaced last
year's commentator Henri Sannier.

-ilan

-ilan

Date: 08 Jul 2007 11:56:41
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

Date: 08 Jul 2007 04:17:39
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 12:38 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:10:15 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jul 8, 2:47 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>
> >> I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
> >> Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
> >> the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
> >> he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.
>
> >No doubt he was great, but that is the price he pays in my book for
> >losing the TdF with the smallest margin ever due to his less than
> >perfect aerodynamics. That's the way is always seems to go. A career
> >of great accomplishments is near forgotten in the shadow of one
> >mistake.
>
> So you're buying into that flawed view and perpetuating it...

The view that he lost due to less than optimal aerodynamics? I do
believe that. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy for me to say
it was not optimal so that doesn't really take anything away from his
performance. I don't actually fault him for that but it is still true.
And as you say he was one of the fastest TT riders in TdF history, but
what is remembered for the most part about him and TT's is that he
lost, cruel as that may be.

Joseph

Date: 08 Jul 2007 07:27:50
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 04:17:39 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Jul 8, 12:38 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:10:15 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>>
>>
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Jul 8, 2:47 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>>
>> >> I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
>> >> Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
>> >> the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
>> >> he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.
>>
>> >No doubt he was great, but that is the price he pays in my book for
>> >losing the TdF with the smallest margin ever due to his less than
>> >perfect aerodynamics. That's the way is always seems to go. A career
>> >of great accomplishments is near forgotten in the shadow of one
>> >mistake.
>>
>> So you're buying into that flawed view and perpetuating it...
>
>The view that he lost due to less than optimal aerodynamics? I do
>believe that.

The guy had superb aerodynamics but worse than one or two other guys.
He schooled people in TTs due to fitness, position and motivation. He
won two Tours of France and one TOur of Italy. And yet it's somehow
funny that he can criticise another riders position because he was
beaten in one race!
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 08 Jul 2007 12:57:57
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
[Of Laurent Fignon]
> The guy had superb aerodynamics

Yeah ... the pony tail was very areo.

> but worse than one or two other guys.
> He schooled people in TTs due to fitness, position and motivation. He
> won two Tours of France and one TOur of Italy.

One of those Tours De France came because of Pascal Simon breaking his
collarbone in a crash while enjoying a pretty good advantage over LF.

> And yet it's somehow
> funny that he can criticise another riders position because he was
> beaten in one race!

He apparently is still a spoiled brat.

Bill

Date: 08 Jul 2007 16:28:46
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 12:57:57 -0500, "William R. Mattil"
<wrmattil@ix.netcom.com > wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>[Of Laurent Fignon]
>> The guy had superb aerodynamics
>
>Yeah ... the pony tail was very areo.
>
>> but worse than one or two other guys.
>> He schooled people in TTs due to fitness, position and motivation. He
>> won two Tours of France and one TOur of Italy.
>
>One of those Tours De France came because of Pascal Simon breaking his
>collarbone in a crash while enjoying a pretty good advantage over LF.

So? He didn't really win? He didn't TT and climb fast? What's your
point?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Date: 08 Jul 2007 21:23:45
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> So? He didn't really win? He didn't TT and climb fast? What's your
> point?

I need to actually have a point here ? Yikes. My bad ..... Okay if you
insist. You have painted him as a great champion having done all that
"stuff" And I pointed out that one of his tours was due to a much better
rider getting a broken collarbone. It could also be argued that part of
his success was also due to Hinault have had medical issues ??
Recovering from knee surgery ? Anyway .... My point was that he was just
a rider who won the Tour twice. Being in the right place at the right
time and having reasonable skill and fitness. But his Time Trial skills
I wouldn't rate all that high. Personally I think he climbed better than
he time trialed.

While we are at it ... it could also be argued that had Lemond been
given the green light to go after him when they were teammates then one
of those victories wouldn't have been his either.

Bill

Date: 08 Jul 2007 17:43:23
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:23:45 GMT, "William R. Mattil"
<wrmattil@ix.netcom.com > wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>> So? He didn't really win? He didn't TT and climb fast? What's your
>> point?
>
>
>I need to actually have a point here ? Yikes. My bad ..... Okay if you
>insist. You have painted him as a great champion having done all that
>"stuff" And I pointed out that one of his tours was due to a much better
>rider getting a broken collarbone.

Ah, there we have it. The guy wins a race due to another rider
crashing. Maybe if his opponent crashed out on the last stage you
mght have a point, but as it was Simon crashed out roughly midway
through the race, so that sort of statement is silly. Bike racing is
a sport of crashed, illness, bad luck and overcoming all of that. To
say one rider won due to another riders misfortune is silly.

BTW - two Tours of France, a Tour of Italy, at least 3 classics
including a monument twice, make a rider a great champion.

> It could also be argued that part of
>his success was also due to Hinault have had medical issues ??

Repeat the above.

--
JT
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 17:46:38
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:43:23 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:

>On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:23:45 GMT, "William R. Mattil"
><wrmattil@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>>
>>> So? He didn't really win? He didn't TT and climb fast? What's your
>>> point?
>>
>>
>>I need to actually have a point here ? Yikes. My bad ..... Okay if you
>>insist. You have painted him as a great champion having done all that
>>"stuff" And I pointed out that one of his tours was due to a much better
>>rider getting a broken collarbone.
>
>Ah, there we have it. The guy wins a race due to another rider
>crashing. Maybe if his opponent crashed out on the last stage you
>mght have a point, but as it was Simon crashed out roughly midway
>through the race, so that sort of statement is silly. Bike racing is
>a sport of crashed, illness, bad luck and overcoming all of that. To
>say one rider won due to another riders misfortune is silly.

One other thing. This baloney about one rider winning only because
another had bad luck *might* possibly be credible if the unlucky rider
did other really big stuff in his career. Simon didn't. The biggest
result of his I can think of was winning or being second in the Tour
of the Future.
--
JT
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 15:58:48
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

In article <1nm293pccomrqt3seerutqi00ll1apnm81@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:43:23 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:23:45 GMT, "William R. Mattil"
> ><wrmattil@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>>
> >>> So? He didn't really win? He didn't TT and climb fast? What's your
> >>> point?
> >>
> >>
> >>I need to actually have a point here ? Yikes. My bad ..... Okay if you
> >>insist. You have painted him as a great champion having done all that
> >>"stuff" And I pointed out that one of his tours was due to a much better
> >>rider getting a broken collarbone.
> >
> >Ah, there we have it. The guy wins a race due to another rider
> >crashing. Maybe if his opponent crashed out on the last stage you
> >mght have a point, but as it was Simon crashed out roughly midway
> >through the race, so that sort of statement is silly. Bike racing is
> >a sport of crashed, illness, bad luck and overcoming all of that. To
> >say one rider won due to another riders misfortune is silly.
>
> One other thing. This baloney about one rider winning only because
> another had bad luck *might* possibly be credible if the unlucky rider
> did other really big stuff in his career. Simon didn't. The biggest
> result of his I can think of was winning or being second in the Tour
> of the Future.

I think the phrase goes something like, "To finish first you must first finish."
Fignon did just that.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 08 Jul 2007 01:10:15
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 2:47 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>
> I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
> Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
> the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
> he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.

No doubt he was great, but that is the price he pays in my book for
losing the TdF with the smallest margin ever due to his less than
perfect aerodynamics. That's the way is always seems to go. A career
of great accomplishments is near forgotten in the shadow of one
mistake.

Joseph

Date: 08 Jul 2007 06:38:29
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:10:15 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Jul 8, 2:47 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>>
>> I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
>> Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
>> the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
>> he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.
>
>No doubt he was great, but that is the price he pays in my book for
>losing the TdF with the smallest margin ever due to his less than
>perfect aerodynamics. That's the way is always seems to go. A career
>of great accomplishments is near forgotten in the shadow of one
>mistake.

So you're buying into that flawed view and perpetuating it...
--
JT
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 00:27:15
From:
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 8, 1:23 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Jul 7, 5:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> > minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> > 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> > give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> dumbass,
>
> it's customary that riders have the opportunity to have their bike
> checked in advance but usually at (UCI) TTs there is some type of
> corral where you enter and your bike is officially checked just before
> the start. that way you can't pass a legal bike and then make changes
> before riding.

For the Alpe d'Huez ITT, many riders had to continually fix up their
bikes because of weight < 6.8 kg, and the delay was certainly much
greater than 5 minutes.

-ilan

Date: 07 Jul 2007 23:48:17
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

In article <1183845083.883181.264020@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com >,
ilanpsi@gmail.com wrote:

> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> post race interview.
>
> My other observations of the race are:
>
> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.

Well...I don't know what the usual way of checking the bikes is, but
first, the teams all have spare bikes of one sort or another, and
second, it should be a firing offense for a mechanic to bring up a bike
that didn't meet the weight and dimensional requirements.

I mean, these guys have all had their TT bikes set up days (if not
months) ahead of time. The measurements are all in the technical
regulations, and the official check should be nothing more than a proper
formality.

> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.

And he finished 19th! I'm thinking I should drink from my bottle, too.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Date: 08 Jul 2007 01:27:06
From: Keith
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

>The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
>Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
>and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
>this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
>times unless you had HDTV.

The sad part is that while it is being shot in HDTV, no one is
broadcasting it in HDTV...

Watch it on TSR2, great comments by Bertrand Dubout and 16/9 format.
Eurosport with spotted dick and durand is pretty good too.

>They used the same function during
>Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
>post race interview.

Date: 08 Jul 2007 15:40:54
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

> The sad part is that while it is being shot in HDTV, no one is
> broadcasting it in HDTV...

Which does exactly what, besides making the image breakups dramatically less
soft (due to lower compression ratios) when there are the inevitable and
frequent obstructions between the motorcycle-based cameras and the overhead
planes & helicopters that relay the signal?

Oh. Right. Podium girls. What was I thinking???

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Date: 08 Jul 2007 20:03:33
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

Dans le message de
news:aA7ki.5932$zA4.3056@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net,
Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ1@ix.netcom.com > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>> The sad part is that while it is being shot in HDTV, no one is
>> broadcasting it in HDTV...
>
> Which does exactly what, besides making the image breakups
> dramatically less soft (due to lower compression ratios) when there
> are the inevitable and frequent obstructions between the
> motorcycle-based cameras and the overhead planes & helicopters that
> relay the signal?
> Oh. Right. Podium girls. What was I thinking???
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Two good things on France2 today -

Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.

Date: 08 Jul 2007 20:22:44
From: Davey Crockett
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > writes:

> Two good things on France2 today -
>
> Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
> They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.
>
>

Didn't you just love the one in the red dress ?

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
WARNING:
It is dangerous to your Health to be Right when the Government is
Wrong

Date: 08 Jul 2007 16:29:26
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:22:44 +0200, Davey Crockett
<d4Qaveycrockett@azurservers.com > wrote:

>"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> writes:
>
>
>> Two good things on France2 today -
>>
>> Gerald Holcz's microphone went dead, often.
>> They kept the podium girls around for an hour during the after-race show.
>>
>>
>
>Didn't you just love the one in the red dress ?

Where are photos?

--
JT
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Date: 08 Jul 2007 14:17:34
From: julos
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

Keith a �crit :

>
> The sad part is that while it is being shot in HDTV, no one is
> broadcasting it in HDTV...

You're wrong,it's broadcasted in HDTV by Orange internetTV provider and
by DTV in the areas of Paris, Lyon and Marseille :-)

--
Cliquez ci-dessous pour me r�pondre
http://cerbermail.com/?1fvv7WnbXL

Date: 07 Jul 2007 23:23:28
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 5:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:

> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.
>

dumbass,

it's customary that riders have the opportunity to have their bike
checked in advance but usually at (UCI) TTs there is some type of
corral where you enter and your bike is officially checked just before
the start. that way you can't pass a legal bike and then make changes
before riding.

Date: 07 Jul 2007 15:26:52
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 2:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.

Dumbass -

He is French.

Why do you expect any different?

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Date: 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>
> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
> post race interview.
>
> My other observations of the race are:
>
> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
> give much time to rectify a problem.
>
> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>
> -ilan

Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.

Joseph

Date: 07 Jul 2007 22:20:22
From: Marlene Blanshay
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

my big complaint about the Canal evasion coverage is the phoned-in
comentary of Bernard Vallet...he's okayk, but he obviously had a bad
phone connection which was very irritating...and he yammered constantly.
Phoning in commentary is annoying in general...they do it during F1
coverage too...it drives me nuts.

joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 7, 11:51 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>> This year's France Television coverage is the worst I've ever seen
>> there, and it even rivals the old ESPN coverage with John Tesch music.
>> In particular, Thevenet, who was the most knowledgeable and precise
>> colour commentator I've heard is totally gone and his replacement,
>> Laurent Jalabert, who was not too bad, has been superseded by Laurent
>> Fignon. It is hard for me to listen to Fignon for more than 5
>> seconds without thinking "loser", especially when he was criticising
>> Moreau's position as not being aerodynamic. To make things worse, his
>> memory is poor, e.g., when he referred to the extremely bad TT
>> position of that "Russian" and the co-commentator went through the
>> list of Russians, each of which was negative, until he figured out
>> that he meant Popovych, who is actually Ukranian. Apart from that, he
>> is fond of making stupid jokes which aren't funny.
>>
>> The production is also amazingly poor. For example, they featured
>> Wiggins' ride by also showing his DS yelling into his walkie talkie,
>> and minizing these two images to a fraction of the screen size. For
>> this reason, it was impossible to see his intermediate and finish
>> times unless you had HDTV. They used the same function during
>> Cancellara's ride, as they wanted to show Millar's face during his
>> post race interview.
>>
>> My other observations of the race are:
>>
>> 1. It seemed that the bike size and weight check was done literally 5
>> minutes before the start. I saw Millar being measured by UCI officials
>> 5 minutes before his start. Same for Vinokourov. That doesn't seem to
>> give much time to rectify a problem.
>>
>> 2. Sylvain Chavanel actually drank from his water bottle during the
>> race. In fact, this seems to strange for a 9 minute race that I might
>> actually have to find it again to make sure I didn't imagine it.
>>
>> -ilan
>
> Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.
>
> Joseph
>

Date: 07 Jul 2007 20:47:16
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Worst Tour coverage ever

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 15:20:24 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:

>Fignon criticizing someone's aerodynamics in a TT? That's a good one.

I thought he had a very good to great TT position himself - from
Guimard's work in wind tunnels. Through the end of the 1980s he rode
the second or third fastest TT every in Tour of France history. Plus
he won the Grand Prix des Nations TT at least once.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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