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Main
Date: 27 Apr 2007 06:31:43
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: dopey Danielson fan
|
There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that says:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
"Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
the race. After stage 3 to Chattanooga, Bruyneel said that because
Brajkovic was one of Discovery's three protected riders (in addition
to Leipheimer and Danielson), he let the break go. But if Brajkovic
was one of Discovery's protected leaders, what was he doing joining a
break a mere 26 km into a long, hard, mountain stage?"
Umm, the answer is pretty clear: going for the overall win.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 23 May 2007 17:13:40
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 28, 7:25 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com > wrote:
> Dwayne wrote:
> > I just thought, what if Basso gets barred from the Giro? Could
> > Danielson get another (last?) shot at team leader?
>
> While it seems plausible on its face, it would not fit with his
> current training plan and he's definitely not riding the Giro.
>
Nor is he riding Catalunya.
New schedule includeds the Tour of Belgium then the Dauphine.
DR
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Date: 02 May 2007 14:44:32
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On May 2, 3:46 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> > I treated each year as a separate instance, as if there
> > were 60 different winners from 1947-2006, each of the
> > proper age on race day. That is, I'm interested in the
> > question "How many different times has the Tour been
> > won by a 31+ year old?" not "How many different 31+
> > year olds have won the Tour?"
>
> So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
> testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
> evil AI bots.
Chung v2.0, hah. Next people will be asking if I was
Chung's grad student. (Chung himself is too busy changing
nappies to be reading this thread.) Did you know that
the term "Chung Chart" was made up by Fat SD Steve
of-all-people - and it refers to a plot I made?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/df532402e841e4bc
Ben
I was Chung before Chung was cool.
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Date: 01 May 2007 18:30:23
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On May 1, 4:31 pm, tony <szu...@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> > I'd be curious to know what our European contingent,
> > especially Benjo, Bart et al, think of this idea.
> > Robert Chung probably knows the public health statistics
> > that would go along with it.
>
> Thanks for that. How do you control for repeat winners- in other
> words, does the average age of PR winners change because Museeuw,
> Ballerini, Moser ertc. won multiple times, does the average Tour
> winner get skewed because you had lots of guys in the last 50 years
> win multiple times, getting one year older each time?
I treated each year as a separate instance, as if there
were 60 different winners from 1947-2006, each of the
proper age on race day. That is, I'm interested in the
question "How many different times has the Tour been
won by a 31+ year old?" not "How many different 31+
year olds have won the Tour?" You can see this in the
age vs time plot:
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.year.age.png
Look at the black dots for the Tour winner. In the Indurain
and Armstrong eras you can see a rising diagonal line as
the Tour winner ages at one year per year.
The data files I used are available at
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/
winners.flanders.list
winners.roubaix.list
winners.tdf.dat.2006 (the start towns, race dates, distances
are not updated past 2002)
The only tedious part of this was having to transcribe all
the birthdates off www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net.
By the way, the average age of the winners of each race
over 1947-2006 is very close: 28.0, 28.8, 28.3 years
for RvV, P-R, TdF. The distributions are somewhat
different though.
Ben
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Date: 02 May 2007 10:46:41
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> I treated each year as a separate instance, as if there
> were 60 different winners from 1947-2006, each of the
> proper age on race day. That is, I'm interested in the
> question "How many different times has the Tour been
> won by a 31+ year old?" not "How many different 31+
> year olds have won the Tour?"
So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
evil AI bots.
|
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Date: 02 May 2007 17:04:01
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
In article <46385060$0$20110$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com >,
Donald Munro <fat-dumbass@hotmail.com > wrote:
> bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> > I treated each year as a separate instance, as if there
> > were 60 different winners from 1947-2006, each of the
> > proper age on race day. That is, I'm interested in the
> > question "How many different times has the Tour been
> > won by a 31+ year old?" not "How many different 31+
> > year olds have won the Tour?"
>
> So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
> testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
> evil AI bots.
Good, bad: we're the ones with the data.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 02 May 2007 13:23:56
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:04:01 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca >
wrote:
>> So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
>> testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
>> evil AI bots.
>
>Good, bad: we're the ones with the data.
Data can always be made up. How much do you want? Labels and measures
are extra, or you can add them yourself after you get the stuff.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 02 May 2007 17:33:27
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On Wed, 02 May 2007 13:23:56 -0500, Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org >
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:04:01 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>> So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
>>> testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
>>> evil AI bots.
>>
>>Good, bad: we're the ones with the data.
>
>Data can always be made up. How much do you want? Labels and measures
>are extra, or you can add them yourself after you get the stuff.
Did you know that 87.4% of all data are made up on the spot.
Ron
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Date: 03 May 2007 08:34:07
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:33:27 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>On Wed, 02 May 2007 13:23:56 -0500, Curtis L. Russell <curtis@md-bicycling.org>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:04:01 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>> So now rbr has a Chung V2.0. Why do I get the feeling rbr has become the
>>>> testing ground for a new plot for world domination involving the use of
>>>> evil AI bots.
>>>
>>>Good, bad: we're the ones with the data.
>>
>>Data can always be made up. How much do you want? Labels and measures
>>are extra, or you can add them yourself after you get the stuff.
>
>Did you know that 87.4% of all data are made up on the spot.
>
>Ron
I can buy that...
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
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Date: 01 May 2007 16:31:34
From: tony
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On May 1, 4:04 am, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
> On Apr 30, 12:34 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 29, 10:04 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/tdf_winners.age.png
> > > Clearly, there is a huge dropoff afterage30 or so. You can
> > > argue about psychology, and whether modern training
> > > methods and orange juice regimens are prolonging riders'
> > > careers.
>
> > Dumbass -
> > Before someone goes Laff@me on us let me say that orange juice
> > regimens don't prevent the dropoff in recovery ability caused by
> > Father Time. The young guys are on the Orange Juice regimens too and
> > all else being equal . . .
>
> > The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
> >classicswhere craftiness is just as important as wattage.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I wrote a long treatise and Google ate it, so here
> goes again. I agree that orange juice ought to have
> little to do with recovery. There are other juices
> that maybe would (pineapple juice?) but I also don't
> think they are responsible foragedifferences, plus
> recovery juices have been around for a long time. The
> riders say that their recovery goes withage, and I
> imagine that hurts more in a stage race than in a one
> day race. Museeuw said this when he was barely making
> it around the hexagon in his lastTour.
>
> But is our perception that theclassicsfavor old foxes
> real? I'm gonna get all Chung Chart on our asses. I
> compiledwinnersand birthdates for the Ronde v.V. and
> Paris-Roubaix from 1947-2006 (data from cyclingnews andwww.memoire-du-cyclisme.net).
>
> Histogram of winner ages:
> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.age.hist.png
> Winner ages versus year, with 7-year moving average:
> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.year.age.png
>
> >From the histogram, you can see that the averageage
>
> of classic andTourwinnersisn't all that different.
> However, theclassicshave a small tail of old coots
> winning at 35+, which doesn't happen in the postwarTour,
> and theclassicshave a significant number of 25 and
> underwinners, rarer in theTour. People often say that
> it takes several years to build the endurance needed
> to win theTour(except for talents like Ullrich) and
> this suggests there is something to it. Of course it
> also takes several years to earn status of team leader
> for theTour. (BTW, for Robert Chung, I did not yet run
> a K-S test of the difference betweenagedistributions.)
>
> The second plot is really interesting. In fact, the
> idea that theclassicsfavor old wily foxes may be a
> recent prejudice. Look at the moving average lines.
> They track each other quite well until the late 80s
> and 90s, whenclassicswinnersare significantly
> older on average than both contemporaryTourwinnersand
> the past average inclassics. I don't know why this
> might be. Probably not juice-related; could be that
> doing fewer races per season and more attention to
> peaking prolongs older riders' careers.
>
> Another unusual feature in the second plot is that in
> the late 60s to early 70s, theageof bothTourandclassicswinnersdropped like a rock. The born-in-1945
> and after generation takes over. Some of this is the
> coming of Eddy Merckx, but not all. There are just
> fewerwinnersborn in the late 1930s and early 40s
> than you'd expect. I speculate that this cohort
> suffered from poor nutrition and health during
> World War 2 and its immediate aftermath, and though
> there were exceptional individuals, on average the
> cohort was at a disadvantage to the strapping young
> postwar generation. Damn baby boomers, always lording
> it over everyone!
>
> I'd be curious to know what our European contingent,
> especially Benjo, Bart et al, think of this idea.
> Robert Chung probably knows the public health statistics
> that would go along with it.
>
> Ben
> RBR Department of the Census- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for that. How do you control for repeat winners- in other
words, does the average age of PR winners change because Museeuw,
Ballerini, Moser ertc. won multiple times, does the average Tour
winner get skewed because you had lots of guys in the last 50 years
win multiple times, getting one year older each time?
|
| |
Date: 01 May 2007 12:13:09
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On May 1, 3:07 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
>
> What is the hexagon.
france, dumbass.
|
| |
Date: 01 May 2007 01:04:29
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On Apr 30, 12:34 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 29, 10:04 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
>
> > http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/tdf_winners.age.png
> > Clearly, there is a huge dropoff after age 30 or so. You can
> > argue about psychology, and whether modern training
> > methods and orange juice regimens are prolonging riders'
> > careers.
>
> Dumbass -
> Before someone goes Laff@me on us let me say that orange juice
> regimens don't prevent the dropoff in recovery ability caused by
> Father Time. The young guys are on the Orange Juice regimens too and
> all else being equal . . .
>
> The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
> classics where craftiness is just as important as wattage.
Dumbass,
I wrote a long treatise and Google ate it, so here
goes again. I agree that orange juice ought to have
little to do with recovery. There are other juices
that maybe would (pineapple juice?) but I also don't
think they are responsible for age differences, plus
recovery juices have been around for a long time. The
riders say that their recovery goes with age, and I
imagine that hurts more in a stage race than in a one
day race. Museeuw said this when he was barely making
it around the hexagon in his last Tour.
But is our perception that the classics favor old foxes
real? I'm gonna get all Chung Chart on our asses. I
compiled winners and birthdates for the Ronde v.V. and
Paris-Roubaix from 1947-2006 (data from cyclingnews and
www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net).
Histogram of winner ages:
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.age.hist.png
Winner ages versus year, with 7-year moving average:
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.year.age.png
>From the histogram, you can see that the average age
of classic and Tour winners isn't all that different.
However, the classics have a small tail of old coots
winning at 35+, which doesn't happen in the postwar Tour,
and the classics have a significant number of 25 and
under winners, rarer in the Tour. People often say that
it takes several years to build the endurance needed
to win the Tour (except for talents like Ullrich) and
this suggests there is something to it. Of course it
also takes several years to earn status of team leader
for the Tour. (BTW, for Robert Chung, I did not yet run
a K-S test of the difference between age distributions.)
The second plot is really interesting. In fact, the
idea that the classics favor old wily foxes may be a
recent prejudice. Look at the moving average lines.
They track each other quite well until the late 80s
and 90s, when classics winners are significantly
older on average than both contemporary Tour winners and
the past average in classics. I don't know why this
might be. Probably not juice-related; could be that
doing fewer races per season and more attention to
peaking prolongs older riders' careers.
Another unusual feature in the second plot is that in
the late 60s to early 70s, the age of both Tour and
classics winners dropped like a rock. The born-in-1945
and after generation takes over. Some of this is the
coming of Eddy Merckx, but not all. There are just
fewer winners born in the late 1930s and early 40s
than you'd expect. I speculate that this cohort
suffered from poor nutrition and health during
World War 2 and its immediate aftermath, and though
there were exceptional individuals, on average the
cohort was at a disadvantage to the strapping young
postwar generation. Damn baby boomers, always lording
it over everyone!
I'd be curious to know what our European contingent,
especially Benjo, Bart et al, think of this idea.
Robert Chung probably knows the public health statistics
that would go along with it.
Ben
RBR Department of the Census
|
| | |
Date: 01 May 2007 12:07:20
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
In article <1178006669.099674.34420@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
> On Apr 30, 12:34 am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 29, 10:04 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/tdf_winners.age.png
> > > Clearly, there is a huge dropoff after age 30 or so. You can
> > > argue about psychology, and whether modern training
> > > methods and orange juice regimens are prolonging riders'
> > > careers.
> >
> > Dumbass -
> > Before someone goes Laff@me on us let me say that orange juice
> > regimens don't prevent the dropoff in recovery ability caused by
> > Father Time. The young guys are on the Orange Juice regimens too and
> > all else being equal . . .
> >
> > The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
> > classics where craftiness is just as important as wattage.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I wrote a long treatise and Google ate it, so here
> goes again. I agree that orange juice ought to have
> little to do with recovery. There are other juices
> that maybe would (pineapple juice?) but I also don't
> think they are responsible for age differences, plus
> recovery juices have been around for a long time. The
> riders say that their recovery goes with age, and I
> imagine that hurts more in a stage race than in a one
> day race. Museeuw said this when he was barely making
> it around the hexagon in his last Tour.
What is the hexagon.
>
> But is our perception that the classics favor old foxes
> real? I'm gonna get all Chung Chart on our asses. I
> compiled winners and birthdates for the Ronde v.V. and
> Paris-Roubaix from 1947-2006 (data from cyclingnews and
> www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net).
>
> Histogram of winner ages:
> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.age.hist.png
> Winner ages versus year, with 7-year moving average:
> http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/winners.year.age.png
>
> >From the histogram, you can see that the average age
> of classic and Tour winners isn't all that different.
> However, the classics have a small tail of old coots
> winning at 35+, which doesn't happen in the postwar Tour,
> and the classics have a significant number of 25 and
> under winners, rarer in the Tour. People often say that
> it takes several years to build the endurance needed
> to win the Tour (except for talents like Ullrich) and
> this suggests there is something to it. Of course it
> also takes several years to earn status of team leader
> for the Tour. (BTW, for Robert Chung, I did not yet run
> a K-S test of the difference between age distributions.)
Kalua-Smirnoff?
--
Michael Press
|
| | | |
Date: 01 May 2007 15:52:53
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Ages ot tour and classic winners (was Re: dopey Danielson fan)
|
On Tue, 01 May 2007 12:07:20 -0700, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>Kalua-Smirnoff?
>
>--
>Michael Press
That would be Kahlua-Smirnoff and is probably age determinant, as in
best left to people with no discernable taste. A common attribute
among those under 35. I can remember 20 years ago when it was people
under 25. Times have changed.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| |
Date: 30 Apr 2007 00:34:50
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 29, 10:04 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:
>
> Clearly, there is a huge dropoff after age 30 or so. You can
> argue about psychology, and whether modern training
> methods and orange juice regimens are prolonging riders'
> careers.
Dumbass -
Before someone goes Laff@me on us let me say that orange juice
regimens don't prevent the dropoff in recovery ability caused by
Father Time. The young guys are on the Orange Juice regimens too and
all else being equal . . .
The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
classics where craftiness is just as important as wattage.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
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Date: 30 Apr 2007 08:38:44
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On 30 Apr 2007 00:34:50 -0700, Kurgan Gringioni
<kgringioni@hotmail.com > wrote:
>The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
>classics where craftiness is just as important as wattage.
Craftiness is that magical time between when you learn how to let air
out of the other guy's tires moving at 25 and when you start losing
your finger tips.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
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Date: 30 Apr 2007 17:15:06
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
in message <09sb339352i3bs8iolrcnunufpm68s0ibc@4ax.com >, Curtis L. Russell
('curtis@md-bicycling.org') wrote:
> On 30 Apr 2007 00:34:50 -0700, Kurgan Gringioni
> <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The races where being old helps seems to be the one day cobbled
>>classics where craftiness is just as important as wattage.
>
> Craftiness is that magical time between when you learn how to let air
> out of the other guy's tires moving at 25 and when you start losing
> your finger tips.
Hint: calthrops in the jersey pocket.
No risk to fingers.
--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; lovely alternative to rice.
|
| |
Date: 29 Apr 2007 22:04:56
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 29, 7:06 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com> wrote in messagenews:C25A0FD7.60EFA%stevens@veloworks.com...
>
> > Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been able
> > to
> > improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
>
> If that's old what are you? The problem between a 30 year old and a 36 year
> old isn't physical ability - it's mental. They get tired of riding all the
> time and start not to care. If Bobby can hold his concentration on the sport
> he could still be a contender. Whether or not he EVER had the physical
> ability to be a tour winner is another story altogether.
Nobody's won a Tour at 36 in the modern era, the closest
being Bartali, 1948, 35 years old. The oldest Tour winner
_ever_ is claimed to be Firmin Lambot, 1922, 36 years old.
LANCE in 2005 at 33.9 years was one of the oldest winners in
the postwar era; so-called old man Joop Zoetemelk, at the time
of his win in 1980, was just 33.7 years old. A convenient
table of postwar data 1947-2002 may be found at
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/datasets/tdf.dat
http://www.amstat.org/publications/jse/datasets/tdf.txt
Here is a Chung Chart [tm]. I added the ages of winners
2003-2006; since LANCE is such an old coot, his 2003-5
wins are 3/8 of the 31-and-older brigade.
http://www.ucolick.org/~bjw/misc/rbr/tdf_winners.age.png
Clearly, there is a huge dropoff after age 30 or so. You can
argue about psychology, and whether modern training
methods and orange juice regimens are prolonging riders'
careers. But the riders themselves say it just gets hard
to recover as they get older, and the statistics bear
something like this out.
Ben
RBR Data Mining Technician
|
| |
Date: 29 Apr 2007 18:55:38
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
Luka wrote:
> Hey btw which team is going to race Giro for DSC, cos the race starts
> in 2 weeks !?
That I don't know. I wonder if the team does.
DR
|
| |
Date: 29 Apr 2007 13:03:04
From: Luka
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
DirtRoadie je napisal:
> Dwayne wrote:
>
> > I just thought, what if Basso gets barred from the Giro? Could
> > Danielson get another (last?) shot at team leader?
>
> While it seems plausible on its face, it would not fit with his
> current training plan and he's definitely not riding the Giro.
>
> DR
Hey btw which team is going to race Giro for DSC, cos the race starts
in 2 weeks !?
--
http://www.cyclingboard.com
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 06:13:06
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 29, 7:59 am, "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com >
wrote:
> On 4/28/07 4:09 PM, in article
> 1177798147.329498.220...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
>
>
>
> "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> >>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> >>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> >>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
> >> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
> >> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
>
> >> --Mike--
> >> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>
> >> "Dwayne" <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1177705148.119428.154670@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>> On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that
> >>>> says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>
> >>>> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
> >>>> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
> >>>> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
> >>>> the race....
>
> >>> IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
> >>> underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
> >>> for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
> >>> win.
>
> >>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> >>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> >>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > he crashed out of the TdF instead of improving on his 3rd place in
> > 1998.
>
> Dumberass --
>
> That was Julich, not Danielson. TD has never ridden the Tour.
dumbass,
yes. i was responding to :
> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 09:03:19
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On 4/29/07 7:13 AM, in article
1177852385.983500.173780@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com,
"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 29, 7:59 am, "Steven L. Sheffield" <stev...@veloworks.com>
> wrote:
>> On 4/28/07 4:09 PM, in article
>> 1177798147.329498.220...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
>>
>>
>>
>> "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>>>>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
>>>>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
>>>>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>>
>>>> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
>>>> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
>>
>>>> --Mike--
>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>>
>>>> "Dwayne" <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>> news:1177705148.119428.154670@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>>> On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that
>>>>>> says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>>
>>>>>> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
>>>>>> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
>>>>>> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
>>>>>> the race....
>>
>>>>> IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
>>>>> underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
>>>>> for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
>>>>> win.
>>
>>>>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
>>>>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
>>>>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>>
>>> dumbass,
>>
>>> he crashed out of the TdF instead of improving on his 3rd place in
>>> 1998.
>>
>> Dumberass --
>>
>> That was Julich, not Danielson. TD has never ridden the Tour.
>
> dumbass,
>
> yes. i was responding to :
>
>> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
>> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
>
Julich crashed out of the TDF when riding for Cofidis.
Then he went to Credit Agricole (where he became friends with Jens Voigt),
and floundered.
Then he went to T-Mobile (and floundered).
Then he went to CSC.
Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been able to
improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
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Date: 30 Apr 2007 02:06:26
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote in message
news:C25A0FD7.60EFA%stevens@veloworks.com...
>
> Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been able
> to
> improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
If that's old what are you? The problem between a 30 year old and a 36 year
old isn't physical ability - it's mental. They get tired of riding all the
time and start not to care. If Bobby can hold his concentration on the sport
he could still be a contender. Whether or not he EVER had the physical
ability to be a tour winner is another story altogether.
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 21:57:41
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
>> Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been able
>> to
>> improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
>
> If that's old what are you? The problem between a 30 year old and a 36
> year old isn't physical ability - it's mental. They get tired of riding
> all the time and start not to care. If Bobby can hold his concentration on
> the sport he could still be a contender. Whether or not he EVER had the
> physical ability to be a tour winner is another story altogether.
If only that were true. Results tell the story... at some point in the
mid-30s, you might have the drive, you definitely have the intelligence to
win races... a maturity that would have been of phenomenal benefit earlier
on. And yet, in the Grand Tours, that just doesn't happen.
Psychologically, the opposite should be the case. Experience counts for an
awful lot in bike racing. Patience, reading the race, knowing what it takes
to reach your goals. And clearly, in many of the classics, those remain more
important (to a point) than the gradual decline in athletic ability that
comes with getting older. You see that side of the story in stage racing.
Or maybe it's just that the older guys don't dope as much?
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 01 May 2007 00:10:24
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com > wrote in message
news:aHeZh.4978$H84.2748@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>>> Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been
>>> able to
>>> improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
>>
>> If that's old what are you? The problem between a 30 year old and a 36
>> year old isn't physical ability - it's mental. They get tired of riding
>> all the time and start not to care. If Bobby can hold his concentration
>> on the sport he could still be a contender. Whether or not he EVER had
>> the physical ability to be a tour winner is another story altogether.
>
> If only that were true. Results tell the story... at some point in the
> mid-30s, you might have the drive, you definitely have the intelligence to
> win races... a maturity that would have been of phenomenal benefit earlier
> on. And yet, in the Grand Tours, that just doesn't happen.
>
> Psychologically, the opposite should be the case. Experience counts for an
> awful lot in bike racing. Patience, reading the race, knowing what it
> takes to reach your goals. And clearly, in many of the classics, those
> remain more important (to a point) than the gradual decline in athletic
> ability that comes with getting older. You see that side of the story in
> stage racing.
>
> Or maybe it's just that the older guys don't dope as much?
Can't say that I agree with you Mike. Day after day of getting up and riding
another 4 hours gets to people.
It used to be that all endurance events in motorcycling were won by guys
over 40. I don't know how it is now but you'll note that the last Baja race
was won by Malcolm Smith who must be in his late 50's now. I know that I
rode a couple of times with him out of K & N cycles in Riverside back about
'67 or so. He had good equipment and I didn't so we didn't ride together
nearly as much as started out a couple of rides before seeing his dust. Of
course I didn't crash and land on my head all the time and he did.
Just look at the ages of those who win at Paris-Roubaix.
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Date: 01 May 2007 13:47:15
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
In article <QzvZh.5632$Ut6.1048@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mikej1@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:aHeZh.4978$H84.2748@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
> >>> Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been
> >>> able to
> >>> improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
> >>
> >> If that's old what are you? The problem between a 30 year old and a 36
> >> year old isn't physical ability - it's mental. They get tired of riding
> >> all the time and start not to care. If Bobby can hold his concentration
> >> on the sport he could still be a contender. Whether or not he EVER had
> >> the physical ability to be a tour winner is another story altogether.
> >
> > If only that were true. Results tell the story... at some point in the
> > mid-30s, you might have the drive, you definitely have the intelligence to
> > win races... a maturity that would have been of phenomenal benefit earlier
> > on. And yet, in the Grand Tours, that just doesn't happen.
> >
> > Psychologically, the opposite should be the case. Experience counts for an
> > awful lot in bike racing. Patience, reading the race, knowing what it
> > takes to reach your goals. And clearly, in many of the classics, those
> > remain more important (to a point) than the gradual decline in athletic
> > ability that comes with getting older. You see that side of the story in
> > stage racing.
> >
> > Or maybe it's just that the older guys don't dope as much?
>
> Can't say that I agree with you Mike. Day after day of getting up and riding
> another 4 hours gets to people.
The secret word is "recovery." old dudes (and alas, that pretty much
includes me, for bike-racing purposes) don't have it, therefore they do
fine in Stage 1, okay in Stage 2, and then, like Indurain, sometime in
the middle of the race, they just disappear. Not a motivation issue,
because psychology changes less than physiology.
> It used to be that all endurance events in motorcycling were won by guys
> over 40. I don't know how it is now but you'll note that the last Baja race
> was won by Malcolm Smith who must be in his late 50's now. I know that I
> rode a couple of times with him out of K & N cycles in Riverside back about
> '67 or so. He had good equipment and I didn't so we didn't ride together
> nearly as much as started out a couple of rides before seeing his dust. Of
> course I didn't crash and land on my head all the time and he did.
This is a terrible analogue to bike racing for several reasons. First,
as important as fitness is in motorcycle racing, it is fundamentally a
technique sport. Having good technique saves a lot of energy, and it
makes you faster. Bike racing is not a technique sport, in that if
you're really good at turning pedals, you're still going to get killed
by the guy who weighs the same as you and makes 10 watts more power.
Malcolm Smith is a best-of-generation endurance rider.
More to the point, the last time Malcolm Smith "won" the Baja 1000, it
was in the Veterans class, which is entirely admirable. But it's rather
like arguing that cyclists don't get slower as they age because a
40-year-old just won the UCI Masters World Championships.
> Just look at the ages of those who win at Paris-Roubaix.
And what is missing from Roubaix? Recovery. It's also why sprinters tend
to last longer than GC riders. Though even there, Cipo scored his last
win at age 38.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 20:58:04
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On 4/29/07 8:06 PM, in article
CacZh.6744$j63.5653@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
<cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com> wrote in message
> news:C25A0FD7.60EFA%stevens@veloworks.com...
>>
>> Julich will be 36 this year ... It's no surprise that he hasn't been able
>> to
>> improve on a third place finish that happened 9 years ago ... He's OLD!
>
> If that's old what are you?
Even older, at 41.
> The problem between a 30 year old and a 36 year
> old isn't physical ability - it's mental.
So you're a physiologist and psychologist now?
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 22:20:28
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
In article <C25AB75C.60FE7%stevens@veloworks.com >,
"Steven L. Sheffield" <stevens@veloworks.com > wrote:
> On 4/29/07 8:06 PM, in article
> CacZh.6744$j63.5653@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > The problem between a 30 year old and a 36 year
> > old isn't physical ability - it's mental.
>
>
> So you're a physiologist and psychologist now?
Surely that's somewhere on his Amazing Elastic Resume ((TM)).
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
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Date: 28 Apr 2007 15:09:07
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> > practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> > Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>
> "Dwayne" <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1177705148.119428.154670@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> >> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that
> >> says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>
> >> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
> >> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
> >> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
> >> the race....
>
> > IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
> > underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
> > for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
> > win.
>
> > Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> > practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> > Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
dumbass,
he crashed out of the TdF instead of improving on his 3rd place in
1998.
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Date: 29 Apr 2007 05:59:09
From: Steven L. Sheffield
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On 4/28/07 4:09 PM, in article
1177798147.329498.220340@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com,
"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
>>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
>>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>>
>> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
>> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
>>
>> --Mike--
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>>
>> "Dwayne" <dwayne_dillh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1177705148.119428.154670@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that
>>>> says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>>
>>>> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
>>>> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
>>>> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
>>>> the race....
>>
>>> IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
>>> underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
>>> for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
>>> win.
>>
>>> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
>>> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
>>> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
>
> dumbass,
>
> he crashed out of the TdF instead of improving on his 3rd place in
> 1998.
Dumberass --
That was Julich, not Danielson. TD has never ridden the Tour.
--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot flahute dot com [foreword] slash
|
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Date: 28 Apr 2007 06:25:58
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
Dwayne wrote:
> I just thought, what if Basso gets barred from the Giro? Could
> Danielson get another (last?) shot at team leader?
While it seems plausible on its face, it would not fit with his
current training plan and he's definitely not riding the Giro.
DR
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Date: 28 Apr 2007 04:01:05
From: Dwayne
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <M...@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
> > Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> > practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> > Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
> Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
> potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
I just thought, what if Basso gets barred from the Giro? Could
Danielson get another (last?) shot at team leader?
|
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Date: 27 Apr 2007 13:19:08
From: Dwayne
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>
> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
> the race....
IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
win.
Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
|
| | |
Date: 28 Apr 2007 01:01:21
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
Could be that he just needs a different type of DS to reach his full
potential. Look at what happened with Bobby Julich when he went to CSC.
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
"Dwayne" <dwayne_dillhole@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1177705148.119428.154670@n35g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 27, 6:31 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>> There is a letter in Cyclingnews.com that
>> says:http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2007/04-27letters
>>
>> "Tom Danielson should leave Discovery. He was supposed to be the
>> outright leader for the Tour of Georgia, but like he did during the
>> Tour of Spain, Bruyneel has once again ditched Danielson mid-way into
>> the race....
>
> IIRC, Danielson was "ditched" in the Vuelta because he had
> underperformed and lagged behind Brajkovic, who wore the gold jersey
> for a few days. Even so, TD was allowed to go for a subsequent stage
> win.
>
> Seems to me that TD's future as a GT leader with Discovery is
> practically nil, given the signing of Contador and development of
> Brajkovic. If he leaves DSC, the decision will probably be mutual...
>
>
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 12:46:11
From: DirtRoadie
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> The writer should just be glad Bruyneel didn't hold Danielson back on Brasstown Bald to support Brajkovic, which would have been far more conventional than frolic off the front with Levi.
Fact of the matter is that both Levi and Tom were supposed to wait for
the go-ahead to be sure Brajkovic was in good shape before taking off.
Levi didn't wait.
DR
|
| |
Date: 27 Apr 2007 18:31:43
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: dopey Danielson fan
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> Umm, the answer is pretty clear: going for the overall win.
>
>
Confusion over a team's goals: to win, or to have a particular rider win.
The writer should just be glad Bruyneel didn't hold Danielson back on Brasstown Bald to support Brajkovic, which would have been far more conventional than frolic off the front with Levi.
Dan
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