| |
Main
Date: 03 Apr 2007 07:30:21
From: bjorn
Subject: ullrich dna analyzed
|
German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
(sportinformationsdienst).
|
|
| |
Date: 07 Apr 2007 05:20:24
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 7, 5:43 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
>
> As I suggested, this is much too broad a topic and too complex a response to
> place in a forum of discussion. Maybe we can agree, at least, that training
> itself (including having the time and resources to train) is not, per se, a
> transgression of the spirit of athletic competition.
> --
> Bonne route !
>
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks Sandy
Well you know training IS altering the body using outside sources and
stimulation....
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 17:38:36
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 5, 5:20 pm, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 4:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
> > > he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
>
> > I would be greatly surprised if it constituted fraud.
> > Breach of contract more likely.
>
> that is what the law suit from Bannenberg is about (fraud), however.
AFAIK Bannenberg, who is a third party, has managed
to initiate a proceeding in which Ullrich could be
up on criminal charges. This is presumably some fact
of German criminal law that doesn't have an analogy
in the UK/American system. In the UK/American system,
I think the third party would not have standing,
it would have to be T-Mobile (or Olaf Ludwig Cycling)
that pressed charges. So making an analogy to fraud
or breach as defined in Anglo-American law may be
doomed from the start.
Ben
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 17:20:06
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 5, 4:25 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1175719459.156510.20...@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
> > he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
>
> I would be greatly surprised if it constituted fraud.
> Breach of contract more likely.
> --
> Michael Press
that is what the law suit from Bannenberg is about (fraud), however.
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 06:39:14
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 5, 5:54 am, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org >
wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> > How long before Ullrich's lawyers will say there is nothing illegal
> > about having your blood stored somewhere....be nice if some of these
> > putzes would just admit it, take their smacks and them move on..Euros
> > and Americans included.
>
> They're already saying it -->http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr04news3
>
> From the article:
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> But another one of Ullrich's attorneys, Peter-Michael Diestel maintained
> that even the DNA match did not prove that Ullrich made use of blood
> doping. "Even if all of this is true, it doesn't mean he doped," Diestel
> told the N24 TV channel. "I also have blood of mine in various places. I
> have a doctor in Rostock, another one in Berlin, another one wherever...
> This doesn't mean that the blood was manipulated, that it was used for
> doping purposes. Fraud is still far away."
What I'd be puzzled about is how a substantial amount of my blood got
there:
Either I had intended for my own use. Then I would try to find out why
it ended up in a different country with a person I don't even know. Or
it was really a Red Cross type donation. Then I'd be curious to know
why it is not in an emergency blood bank, but with some doctor who is
just doing research?
bjorn
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 16:47:45
From: B. Lafferty
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
"bjorn" <procyclingpress@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1175780354.742332.184420@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 5, 5:54 am, Jason Spaceman <notrea...@jspaceman.homelinux.org>
> wrote:
>> Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>>
>> > How long before Ullrich's lawyers will say there is nothing illegal
>> > about having your blood stored somewhere....be nice if some of these
>> > putzes would just admit it, take their smacks and them move on..Euros
>> > and Americans included.
>>
>> They're already saying
>> it -->http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr04news3
>>
>> From the article:
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> But another one of Ullrich's attorneys, Peter-Michael Diestel maintained
>> that even the DNA match did not prove that Ullrich made use of blood
>> doping. "Even if all of this is true, it doesn't mean he doped," Diestel
>> told the N24 TV channel. "I also have blood of mine in various places. I
>> have a doctor in Rostock, another one in Berlin, another one wherever...
>> This doesn't mean that the blood was manipulated, that it was used for
>> doping purposes. Fraud is still far away."
>
> What I'd be puzzled about is how a substantial amount of my blood got
> there:
>
> Either I had intended for my own use. Then I would try to find out why
> it ended up in a different country with a person I don't even know. Or
> it was really a Red Cross type donation. Then I'd be curious to know
> why it is not in an emergency blood bank, but with some doctor who is
> just doing research?
>
> bjorn
>
Especially when you've said you don't know the good doctor.
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 05:38:30
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 8:30 am, "bjorn" <procyclingpr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
> in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
> (sportinformationsdienst).
How long before Ullrich's lawyers will say there is nothing illegal
about having your blood stored somewhere....be nice if some of these
putzes would just admit it, take their smacks and them move on..Euros
and Americans included.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 08:54:14
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
=20
> How long before Ullrich's lawyers will say there is nothing illegal
> about having your blood stored somewhere....be nice if some of these
> putzes would just admit it, take their smacks and them move on..Euros=
> and Americans included.
They're already saying it -- >
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=3Dnews/2007/apr07/apr04news3
From the article:
-----------------------------------------------------------
But another one of Ullrich's attorneys, Peter-Michael Diestel maintaine=
d
that even the DNA match did not prove that Ullrich made use of blood
doping. "Even if all of this is true, it doesn't mean he doped," Dieste=
l
told the N24 TV channel. "I also have blood of mine in various places. =
I
have a doctor in Rostock, another one in Berlin, another one wherever..=
.
This doesn't mean that the blood was manipulated, that it was used for
doping purposes. Fraud is still far away."
The same reasoning was exposed to Cyclingnews some months ago by J=F6rg=
Jaksche (see interview). "Even if a bag containing the blood of one of =
the
accused had been found in Fuentes' apartment, that doesn't mean that th=
e
rider had the intention of enhancing his performance," he said in Decem=
ber
2006. "It only means that a certain amount of blood was given. ... If
someone goes into a shop and buys a knife, you can't convict him of pla=
nned
homicide, either."
------------------------------------------------------------------
Like I said, Ullrich was storing the blood and planning on donating it =
to
the Red Cross. Yeah, that's the ticket. ;-)
J. Spaceman
|
| |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 03:51:30
From: Jason Spaceman
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On 3 Apr 2007 07:30:21 -0700, "bjorn" <procyclingpress@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
>in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
>(sportinformationsdienst).
Now now, that doesn't mean Ullrich doping. As one of Ullrich's
lawyers said "Even if all of this is true, it doesn't mean he doped,".
(see
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/apr07/apr04news3)
I'm afraid it was all a big mix-up. You see, Dr. Fuentes was running
a Red Cross blood donor clinic out of his office. Ullrich, out of the
kindness of his heart, flew all the way to Spain just to donate blood.
And that is what Spanish authorities found in Fuentes' office. You
see, it's all a big misunderstanding. ;-)
J. Spaceman
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 17:11:09
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 8:03 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
>
> Of course if the jury was made up of the likes of most of this group you
> could see Ullrich found guilty of idolizing Hitler and singing praises to
> Stalin.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tom you make a perfectly good argument, one that has been used
successfully in German courts before in similar cases and then you
HAVE to throw in this crap. THAT makes me nuts because you DO make
good arguments and bring good things to the table for discussion.
Then the hatred and attacks kick in.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 14:35:04
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 1:44 pm, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Apr 4, 10:09 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1175677755.367442.124840@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca> wrote:
>
> > > the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
>
> > Let them off the hook for what exactly?
>
> dumbass,
>
> there is evidence of dopng taking place, photos of riders entering the
> facility. the WADA code isn't equipped to handle a case like this, but
> this same evidence would result in sanctions under the revisions to
> the WADA code.
>
> > > the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
> > > unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
> > > is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
>
> > Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
> > Spain?
>
> as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
> he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
There were/are three legal proceedings going on:
One from Werner Franke, who claimed, after seeing the spanish
documents, that Ullrich paid 35.000 Euro a year to Fuentes. That claim
didn't hold up in court. I am actually confused about that. Initially
I thought he had read the actual number in the docs, but looks like he
just deducted it from the market price on the various substances
mentioned?
Secondly, Bannenberg, professor for criminology, filed a lawsuit, I
believe already July 7, against Ullrich and Sevilla. This is still
going on. The charges were for fraud against T-Mobile and violation of
the German Medicine Act. Apparently, some think that the way
paragrapgh 263 of the German Criminal Act is worded, it can't be used
in that case (and I don't know if that is what Bannenberg will do).
More interestingly, Ullrich actually had a contract with Olaf Ludwig
Cycling (OLC), not with TMO (OLC had a contract with TMO, however). No
wonder that takes so long. Need to figure out first who is the
responsible...
T-Mobile (or should that be OLC?) itself never sued - they settled
with Ullrich.
And thirdly the Swiss Federation is also still investigating
violations against their sports code...
bjorn
>
> i would like to say i know more, but i don't. unfortunatley sites like
> pezcyclingnews are too busy having espressos with protour honchos and
> reviewing carbon cable housing to report the details of the ullrich
> case for their readers.
>
> but hey! check out that team car round up ! that is one sweet audi.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Apr 2007 08:22:54
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
bjorn wrote:
> There were/are three legal proceedings going on:
> One from Werner Franke, who claimed, after seeing the spanish
> documents, that Ullrich paid 35.000 Euro a year to Fuentes.
>
> Secondly, Bannenberg, professor for criminology, filed a lawsuit, I
> believe already July 7, against Ullrich and Sevilla.
In what capacity were these two filing their charges ? Are they
representing some official body or are they private individuals, and if
they are private individuals were they injured in some way by Ullrich's
actions or are they Germanic Lafferties ?
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 00:03:40
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
"bjorn" <procyclingpress@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1175722504.526800.53750@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 4, 1:44 pm, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 10:09 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> > <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >news:1175677755.367442.124840@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > > On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > > the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
>>
>> > Let them off the hook for what exactly?
>>
>> dumbass,
>>
>> there is evidence of dopng taking place, photos of riders entering the
>> facility. the WADA code isn't equipped to handle a case like this, but
>> this same evidence would result in sanctions under the revisions to
>> the WADA code.
>>
>> > > the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
>> > > unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
>> > > is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
>>
>> > Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags
>> > in
>> > Spain?
>>
>> as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
>> he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
>
> There were/are three legal proceedings going on:
>
> One from Werner Franke, who claimed, after seeing the spanish
> documents, that Ullrich paid 35.000 Euro a year to Fuentes. That claim
> didn't hold up in court. I am actually confused about that. Initially
> I thought he had read the actual number in the docs, but looks like he
> just deducted it from the market price on the various substances
> mentioned?
>
> Secondly, Bannenberg, professor for criminology, filed a lawsuit, I
> believe already July 7, against Ullrich and Sevilla. This is still
> going on. The charges were for fraud against T-Mobile and violation of
> the German Medicine Act. Apparently, some think that the way
> paragrapgh 263 of the German Criminal Act is worded, it can't be used
> in that case (and I don't know if that is what Bannenberg will do).
> More interestingly, Ullrich actually had a contract with Olaf Ludwig
> Cycling (OLC), not with TMO (OLC had a contract with TMO, however). No
> wonder that takes so long. Need to figure out first who is the
> responsible...
>
> T-Mobile (or should that be OLC?) itself never sued - they settled
> with Ullrich.
>
> And thirdly the Swiss Federation is also still investigating
> violations against their sports code...
So it should be interesting to see how indirect evidence that proves
absolutely nothing, save that Fuentes had bags of blood that he intended to
use, is twisted about in order to punish someone that has been more than
punished enough but know-nothings and idiots of the press.
Of course if the jury was made up of the likes of most of this group you
could see Ullrich found guilty of idolizing Hitler and singing praises to
Stalin.
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 14:11:13
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 5:06 pm, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 7:41 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 4, 5:26 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
> > > > > Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>
> > > > Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
> > > > scapegoated.
>
> > > > If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
> > > > risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
> > > > banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
> > > > "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>
> > > > How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
> > > > reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
> > > > claim some kind of moral high ground?
>
> > > > What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>
> > > > This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>
> > > > DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> > > > the first place.
>
> > > dumbass,
>
> > > are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
>
> > > this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
> > > or any of their rules.
>
> > > jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
>
> > > maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dumbass
> > He was responding to one of the few people around here who rival
> > Kunich for hypocrisy. The fact that there is a distinct double
> > standard between groups overseen by Wada doesn't occur to Chiefy as
> > any sort of injustice, or give him any reason to question the system,
> > But he's "Incredibly Sensitive to everyone's rights and feelings",
> > just ask him.
> > I'm with D-y on the concept that, if a mistake is going to be made
> > here, it should be in favor of innocence since, as Benjo has argued,
> > the damage has come more from the reaction by the sport itself and
> > Wada than the doping itself.
> > As for the rest I agree with you completey. Jan is screwed due to the
> > German "Sporting Fraud" law and all the statements he's made and all
> > the circumstantial evidence to go with the DNA matches(plural).
> > I, reluctantly because I like Jan, backed his firing from T-Mobile
> > because he clearly violated the terms of his contract by lieing to
> > them, which was seperate from the actual doping questions.
> > Reality does not respect, or consider feeling and emotions. Mother
> > Nature is a hard bitch.
>
> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> My stupidity. It looks like it isn't "Sporting Fraud" in the Italian
> law sense, but "fraud" in sport for Jan.
> Maybe Sandy can give us all some clarification since he IS an expert
> in this stuff.
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
It's in english.
Here's an article about the Bundesliga which touches on the murkiness
in the legal sysytem on this:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2273706,00.html?maca=en-topstories-83-rdf
More Jan specific stuff here:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2430993,00.html
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 10:11:06
From: B. Lafferty
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
"Bill C" <tritonrider@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:1175721073.684917.103140@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 4, 5:06 pm, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 7:41 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 4, 5:26 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> > > > > Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport
>> > > > > clean? No?
>> > > > > Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>>
>> > > > Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another
>> > > > rider
>> > > > scapegoated.
>>
>> > > > If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
>> > > > risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing
>> > > > for
>> > > > banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is
>> > > > not
>> > > > "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>>
>> > > > How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
>> > > > reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
>> > > > claim some kind of moral high ground?
>>
>> > > > What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>>
>> > > > This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>>
>> > > > DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
>> > > > the first place.
>>
>> > > dumbass,
>>
>> > > are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
>>
>> > > this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
>> > > or any of their rules.
>>
>> > > jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
>>
>> > > maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.- Hide
>> > > quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Dumbass
>> > He was responding to one of the few people around here who rival
>> > Kunich for hypocrisy. The fact that there is a distinct double
>> > standard between groups overseen by Wada doesn't occur to Chiefy as
>> > any sort of injustice, or give him any reason to question the system,
>> > But he's "Incredibly Sensitive to everyone's rights and feelings",
>> > just ask him.
>> > I'm with D-y on the concept that, if a mistake is going to be made
>> > here, it should be in favor of innocence since, as Benjo has argued,
>> > the damage has come more from the reaction by the sport itself and
>> > Wada than the doping itself.
>> > As for the rest I agree with you completey. Jan is screwed due to the
>> > German "Sporting Fraud" law and all the statements he's made and all
>> > the circumstantial evidence to go with the DNA matches(plural).
>> > I, reluctantly because I like Jan, backed his firing from T-Mobile
>> > because he clearly violated the terms of his contract by lieing to
>> > them, which was seperate from the actual doping questions.
>> > Reality does not respect, or consider feeling and emotions. Mother
>> > Nature is a hard bitch.
>>
>> > Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> My stupidity. It looks like it isn't "Sporting Fraud" in the Italian
>> law sense, but "fraud" in sport for Jan.
>> Maybe Sandy can give us all some clarification since he IS an expert
>> in this stuff.
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> It's in english.
> Here's an article about the Bundesliga which touches on the murkiness
> in the legal sysytem on this:
>
> http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2273706,00.html?maca=en-topstories-83-rdf
>
> More Jan specific stuff here:
> http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2430993,00.html
> Bill C
>
Hey Bill, Andrew has one of Jan's waterbottles that he picked up on the side
of the road in Jan's last Tour. Maybe now we know why Andrew climbs as well
as he does. :-)
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Apr 2007 08:18:33
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
B. Lafferty wrote:
> Hey Bill, Andrew has one of Jan's waterbottles that he picked up on the side
> of the road in Jan's last Tour. Maybe now we know why Andrew climbs as well
> as he does. :-)
Must be some of this drinkable Orange Juice (without the vodka, unless it
was flandis's bottle).
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 14:06:10
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 7:41 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 5:26 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
> > > > Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>
> > > Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
> > > scapegoated.
>
> > > If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
> > > risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
> > > banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
> > > "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>
> > > How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
> > > reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
> > > claim some kind of moral high ground?
>
> > > What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>
> > > This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>
> > > DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> > > the first place.
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
>
> > this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
> > or any of their rules.
>
> > jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
>
> > maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Dumbass
> He was responding to one of the few people around here who rival
> Kunich for hypocrisy. The fact that there is a distinct double
> standard between groups overseen by Wada doesn't occur to Chiefy as
> any sort of injustice, or give him any reason to question the system,
> But he's "Incredibly Sensitive to everyone's rights and feelings",
> just ask him.
> I'm with D-y on the concept that, if a mistake is going to be made
> here, it should be in favor of innocence since, as Benjo has argued,
> the damage has come more from the reaction by the sport itself and
> Wada than the doping itself.
> As for the rest I agree with you completey. Jan is screwed due to the
> German "Sporting Fraud" law and all the statements he's made and all
> the circumstantial evidence to go with the DNA matches(plural).
> I, reluctantly because I like Jan, backed his firing from T-Mobile
> because he clearly violated the terms of his contract by lieing to
> them, which was seperate from the actual doping questions.
> Reality does not respect, or consider feeling and emotions. Mother
> Nature is a hard bitch.
>
> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
My stupidity. It looks like it isn't "Sporting Fraud" in the Italian
law sense, but "fraud" in sport for Jan.
Maybe Sandy can give us all some clarification since he IS an expert
in this stuff.
Bill C
|
| | |
Date: 07 Apr 2007 11:43:09
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Dans le message de
news:1175720770.444926.121210@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Apr 4, 7:41 am, "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Apr 4, 5:26 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport
>>>>> clean? No? Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>>
>>>> Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another
>>>> rider scapegoated.
>>
>>>> If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
>>>> risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing
>>>> for banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer
>>>> is not "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>>
>>>> How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
>>>> reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
>>>> claim some kind of moral high ground?
>>
>>>> What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>>
>>>> This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>>
>>>> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
>>>> the first place.
>>
>>> dumbass,
>>
>>> are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
>>
>>> this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
>>> or any of their rules.
>>
>>> jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
>>
>>> maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.- Hide
>>> quoted text -
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> Dumbass
>> He was responding to one of the few people around here who rival
>> Kunich for hypocrisy. The fact that there is a distinct double
>> standard between groups overseen by Wada doesn't occur to Chiefy as
>> any sort of injustice, or give him any reason to question the system,
>> But he's "Incredibly Sensitive to everyone's rights and feelings",
>> just ask him.
>> I'm with D-y on the concept that, if a mistake is going to be made
>> here, it should be in favor of innocence since, as Benjo has argued,
>> the damage has come more from the reaction by the sport itself and
>> Wada than the doping itself.
>> As for the rest I agree with you completey. Jan is screwed due to
>> the German "Sporting Fraud" law and all the statements he's made and
>> all the circumstantial evidence to go with the DNA matches(plural).
>> I, reluctantly because I like Jan, backed his firing from T-Mobile
>> because he clearly violated the terms of his contract by lieing to
>> them, which was seperate from the actual doping questions.
>> Reality does not respect, or consider feeling and emotions. Mother
>> Nature is a hard bitch.
>>
>> Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> My stupidity. It looks like it isn't "Sporting Fraud" in the Italian
> law sense, but "fraud" in sport for Jan.
> Maybe Sandy can give us all some clarification since he IS an expert
> in this stuff.
> Bill C
I would happily expound, but it takes too many words, and I would have liked
to put it on a web page (or 20). Unfortunately, I have no idea how to do
that.
I think that in any event, there are significant differences between
sanctioning the content of an athlete's body (via the scientific methods
used) and sanctioning conduct. Witness the revocation of an Indian
athlete's accomplishements due to the fault of genetic composition (Santhi
Soundarajan, silver medal [revoked], Asian games, 19 December 2006, for
failing to have a clearly female genotype), and sanctioning observed conduct
(interference in sprints, holding onto team cars, throwing water bottles,
perhaps having access to an enormous quantity of water, etc.).
The clear solution, following scientific lines, would be to disqualify any
athlete whose personal genotype exceeds performance potential norms, because
that does not give a level playing field for others. This is a call for
mediocrity in sport. Let the average guy battle for prizes, and exclude the
genetically gifted. Alternatively, to allow for a level playing field, one
could allow any method of increasing the mediocre athlete's body functions
to reach the level of the most endowed. Or, one could require that
competitive athletes pass a genetic superiority test (with high threshholds)
before being allowed to compete at the elite level. None is an acceptable
solution, yet in the war of absolutes, they are favored as solutions.
As I suggested, this is much too broad a topic and too complex a response to
place in a forum of discussion. Maybe we can agree, at least, that training
itself (including having the time and resources to train) is not, per se, a
transgression of the spirit of athletic competition.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Apr 2007 12:49:33
From: Ewoud Dronkert
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Sandy wrote:
> to put it on a web page (or 20). Unfortunately, I have no idea how
http://www.blogger.com/start
--
E. Dronkert
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 14:03:11
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 12:37 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
>
> > ... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.
>
> > What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
> > case of the NFL and the NBA.
>
> Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well
> for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.
Most of whom? Most nerds on RBR, maybe. But since it
does well for popularity of those sports, it appears
that most of their fans aren't really bothered.
I'm somewhat bothered by the overwhelming likelihood that
steroid abuse is rampant in the NFL, but I'm actually more
bothered by the articles I've read recently which suggest
that a significant number of ex-NFL players suffer
diminished capacity and early-onset dementia due to repeated
concussions or impacts to the head. And that doesn't have
anything to do with steroids, other than that it may be
worse in 20 years because players are bigger and faster now.
OTOH, I also read recently that cheerleading is the athletic
pursuit (I'm not going to call it a sport) with the highest
injury rate for women. Cycling, blood bags and orange juice
or not, seems relatively safe by comparison.
Jan is going to get screwed by Puerto because he was a
high enough profile target that some German busybody third
party (not his team) felt compelled to lodge a fraud charge
and the state prosecutor also felt enthusiastic enough
to pursue it. As usual, the doctors, the team managers,
and everybody who benefited from Jan's popularity while
he was racing will skate free.
Ben
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 09:07:55
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On 4 Apr 2007 14:03:11 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>OTOH, I also read recently that cheerleading is the athletic
>pursuit (I'm not going to call it a sport) with the highest
>injury rate for women.
My wife has no problem watching the latest rider take their bike to
the wall in the Giro on the downhills, but has a real problem with the
cheerleaders at the basketball games being tossed in the air. I keep
telling her the floor has lots of bounce. Although I do think the
problem is more with knees that landing on their heads doing flips.
Between braces and wraps, the cheerleading squad at U of MD sometimes
looks like the waiting line at an orthopedic clinic.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 13:44:19
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 10:09 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175677755.367442.124840@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca> wrote:
>
> > the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
>
> Let them off the hook for what exactly?
dumbass,
there is evidence of dopng taking place, photos of riders entering the
facility. the WADA code isn't equipped to handle a case like this, but
this same evidence would result in sanctions under the revisions to
the WADA code.
> > the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
> > unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
> > is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
>
> Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
> Spain?
as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
i would like to say i know more, but i don't. unfortunatley sites like
pezcyclingnews are too busy having espressos with protour honchos and
reviewing carbon cable housing to report the details of the ullrich
case for their readers.
but hey! check out that team car round up ! that is one sweet audi.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 23:25:56
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
In article
<1175719459.156510.20390@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
"amit.ghosh@gmail.com" <amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote:
> as i understand it ullrich's contract stated he would not dope, so if
> he did dope that constitutes a fraud.
I would be greatly surprised if it constituted fraud.
Breach of contract more likely.
--
Michael Press
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 00:00:00
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175719459.156510.20390@w1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> i would like to say i know more, but i don't.
But it sure hasn't slowed down your typing has it?
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 13:28:29
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 8:05 am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> Fanatics of sport like to see their heroes
> performing in outrageous fashion, and
> don't really care how it is accomplished.
I enjoyed seeing the photo of Cipo dressed in a devil outfit and
surrounded by hotties.
I actually am interested in how he accomplished it. First tip: don't
surround oneself with dumbasses. They are a hottie shield.
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:35:50
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 12:37 am, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
>
> > ... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.
>
>
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
> > case of the NFL and the NBA.
>
> Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.
Dumbass -
When people talk about those sports they mostly talk about the game,
what happens on the court or on the field.
In cycling people mostly talk about doping. So yes, they handle it
much better IMO.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:00:19
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 10:09 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175677755.367442.124840@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca> wrote:
>
> > the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
>
> Let them off the hook for what exactly?
>
> > the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
> > unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
> > is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
>
> Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
> Spain?
Also have to wonder if Jan gave any testimony, or a deposition under
oath in the German investigation. If so perjury seems to work as well
as "tax fraud" for getting people they can't any other way.
He made lots of public statements, but I wonder if any were in a
legally binding situation.
He could've walked away from this as a hugely sympathetic figure,
especially in Germany if he'd admitted it up front. Cried about Lance,
the pressure of always being second, wanting one more huge win for the
Country before he retired, etc...
Especially if all there is was the recent stuff. Now he comes off
like Pete Rose.
More horrible career advice from his inner circle.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 04:41:55
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 4, 5:26 am, "amit.gh...@gmail.com" <amit.gh...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
> > > Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>
> > Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
> > scapegoated.
>
> > If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
> > risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
> > banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
> > "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>
> > How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
> > reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
> > claim some kind of moral high ground?
>
> > What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>
> > This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>
> > DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> > the first place.
>
> dumbass,
>
> are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
>
> this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
> or any of their rules.
>
> jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
>
> maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dumbass
He was responding to one of the few people around here who rival
Kunich for hypocrisy. The fact that there is a distinct double
standard between groups overseen by Wada doesn't occur to Chiefy as
any sort of injustice, or give him any reason to question the system,
But he's "Incredibly Sensitive to everyone's rights and feelings",
just ask him.
I'm with D-y on the concept that, if a mistake is going to be made
here, it should be in favor of innocence since, as Benjo has argued,
the damage has come more from the reaction by the sport itself and
Wada than the doping itself.
As for the rest I agree with you completey. Jan is screwed due to the
German "Sporting Fraud" law and all the statements he's made and all
the circumstantial evidence to go with the DNA matches(plural).
I, reluctantly because I like Jan, backed his firing from T-Mobile
because he clearly violated the terms of his contract by lieing to
them, which was seperate from the actual doping questions.
Reality does not respect, or consider feeling and emotions. Mother
Nature is a hard bitch.
Bill C
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 02:26:38
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 4:34 pm, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com > wrote:
> On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
> > Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>
> Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
> scapegoated.
>
> If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
> risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
> banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
> "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>
> How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
> reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
> claim some kind of moral high ground?
>
> What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>
> This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>
> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> the first place.
dumbass,
are you doing a bill c impression or are you always incoherent ?
this jan case has nothing to do with cycling, WADA, the UCI, the ASO
or any of their rules.
jan is charged with fraud, this could mean jailtime.
maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 11:43:59
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
amit.ghosh@gmail.com wrote:
> maybe he can form a prision cycling team with pascal richard.
And they'll make a movie called the loneliness of the long distance
cyclist.
|
| |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 02:09:15
From: amit.ghosh@gmail.com
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca > wrote:
> Dan Connelly wrote:
> > dustoyev...@mac.com wrote:
>
> >> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> >> the first place.
>
> > Are we going to start an OJ debate? :)
>
> > There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the
> > name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with
> > Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.
>
> > If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the
> > probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e),
> > where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.
>
> > This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist
> > is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the
> > probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the
> > contrary. Same test.
>
> > In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to
> > suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been
> > convicted of murder on a lot less.
>
> > Dan
>
> So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
> than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
dumbass,
the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 14:09:42
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
<amit.ghosh@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175677755.367442.124840@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 3, 10:02 pm, WeaselPoopPower <wea...@poop.ca> wrote:
>
> the sport has let all the puerto implicated riders off the hook.
Let them off the hook for what exactly?
> the original sting was a police operation and in jan's case he was
> unlucky enough to be charged with fraud. as far as i understand this
> is a criminal case and he could go to jail.
Exactly what crime was broken in Germany which is proven by bloodbags in
Spain?
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 19:32:53
From: Kurgan Gringioni
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m >
wrote:
> WeaselPoopPower wrote:
>
> > So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
> > than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
>
> I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.
Dumbass -
What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
case of the NFL and the NBA.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 07:37:04
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
> ... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
> case of the NFL and the NBA.
>
Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.
|
| | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 10:05:07
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>> On Apr 3, 7:10 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>
> > ... don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or
> hide it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dumbass -
>>
>>
>> What the mainstream US sports do works pretty good, at least in the
>> case of the NFL and the NBA.
>>
>
> Does well for what? Popularity? Professional wrestling does well for
> popularity. Most of us support a different sort of standard.
Hardly any of us supports a different sort of standard. If they
did we'd see changes across the board in sport. As it is we are
awash in hypocracy, with the fans and their willful denial
providing crucial financial support.
Note that unlike chief I am neutral in my criticism. Fanatics
of sport like to see their heroes performing in outrageous
fashion, and don't really care how it is accomplished. Football
fans (US and Euro), baseball fans, basketball fans, cycling fans,
many others, all share that common desire.
Bob Schwartz
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 13:34:06
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
> Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
> Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
scapegoated.
If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
"quit", or "lose gracefully").
How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
claim some kind of moral high ground?
What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
the first place.
Then there's the "human element", to put it kindly. Read down to the
"false testimony" part, it won't take long:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E2DA153CF936A3575BC0A9629C8B63
(or Tiny: http://tinyurl.com/2f58e8 )
Of course, if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to worry
about. --D-y
|
| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 10:06:52
From: B. Lafferty
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
<dustoyevsky@mac.com > wrote in message
news:1175632446.525342.22320@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 3, 1:28 pm, chiefhiawa...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
>> Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
>
> Bad rules, bad enforcement (following from bad testing), another rider
> scapegoated.
>
> If you know or suspect that other competitors can cheat with little
> risk of detection, especially from the woefully inadequate testing for
> banned substances now in use, what choice is left? (the answer is not
> "quit", or "lose gracefully").
>
> How does an organization get away with making rules they can't
> reliably and fairly enforce, and yet, along with other "enforcers",
> claim some kind of moral high ground?
>
> What happened to "Lead us not into temptation"?
>
> This isn't a pickup game on the playground. Get real.
>
> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> the first place.
>
> Then there's the "human element", to put it kindly. Read down to the
> "false testimony" part, it won't take long:
>
> http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E2DA153CF936A3575BC0A9629C8B63
>
> (or Tiny: http://tinyurl.com/2f58e8 )
>
> Of course, if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to worry
> about. --D-y
>
ROTFLMAO!!!
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| | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 00:53:18
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
> the first place.
>
Are we going to start an OJ debate? :)
There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.
If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e), where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.
This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the contrary. Same test.
In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been convicted of murder on a lot less.
Dan
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Date: 03 Apr 2007 21:02:54
From: WeaselPoopPower
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
>
>> DNA foolproof? Not hardly. There's always a percentage of doubt, in
>> the first place.
>>
>
> Are we going to start an OJ debate? :)
>
> There's an issue of compounded evidence. There's the coincidence of the
> name. There's the coincidence of the written schedules coinciding with
> Ullrich's racing schedule. Then there's the result of the DNA test.
>
> If there's a 0.01% of a false match, and you test 10k cyclists, the
> probability of getting N false matches is approximately 1/(N! * e),
> where N! is N factorial and e is 2.71828.... So for N=1, 37%.
>
> This means if I get 1 match, there's a high probability that the cyclist
> is innocent. However, if I test only 1 cyclist and he's positive, the
> probability is much higher he's guilty, unless there's evidence to the
> contrary. Same test.
>
> In this case there was already a lot of circumstantial evidence to
> suggest it was Ullrich's blood. With the DNA match, people have been
> convicted of murder on a lot less.
>
> Dan
So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
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| | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 19:10:45
From: Dan Connelly
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
WeaselPoopPower wrote:
>
> So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
> than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it. Mainstream US sports are a farce, and I give them little attention.
Dan
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| | | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 22:15:03
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
In article
<FODQh.1371$w41.1264@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net >,
Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> WeaselPoopPower wrote:
>
> >
> > So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
> > than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
>
> I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it. Mainstream US sports are a farce, and I give them little attention.
Looked at another way they are businesses, are run in a
businesslike way, and protect their investment by
repelling all boarding parties from competitors flying
under the flag of `clean' sports. From the spectators'
point of view, it is a reasonable business model. And
what exactly is the difference between NBA an FIFA?
Fights on the playing field? Fights in the stands?
Criminal charges against players? Doping? Well they are
clean. No players in the NBA or FIFA take dope.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 04 Apr 2007 06:48:42
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:10:45 -0700, Dan Connelly
<d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m > wrote:
> No need to villify. Just suspend.
Yeah.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 21:53:09
From: WeaselPoopPower
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Dan Connelly wrote:
> WeaselPoopPower wrote:
>
>>
>> So what is the sport of cycling doing for cyclists and the sport other
>> than publicly crucifying those unfortunate enough to get caught?
>
> I agree. No need to villify. Just suspend. But don't do what
> mainstream US sports do, and ignore the problem, or hide it. Mainstream
> US sports are a farce, and I give them little attention.
>
> Dan
>
Cycling is not addressing the cause they have chosen to tackle the result.
Time has shown a million times over in all walks of life this does not
work, let alone when the stakes are so high. For every fallen soldier
there are ten willing to take their place and until that changes nothing
has changed.
Cycling became inferior to all modern sport when DNA testing was floated
as the solution. Why not just raise the riders in cages? I mean all
they are is meat for profit right, and when the meat goes bad pitch it...
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| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 11:28:12
From:
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
Who fucking cares what other sports are doing? Is our sport clean? No?
Then rejoice a doper getting caught.
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| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 09:43:31
From: bjorn
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 3, 9:34 am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
> bjorn wrote:
> > German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
> > in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
> > (sportinformationsdienst).
>
> I bet he wishes he'd have gone into football rather than
> bike racing.
>
> Bob Schwartz
Yeah, certainly interesting that other sports don't get the same
doping coverage. I guess there just isn't enough money involved in
cycling...Wouldn't it be good to see half of the Real Madrid team hang
out with the lawyers rather than on soccer fields?
bjorn
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| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 13:18:08
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 5, 3:46 pm, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net >
wrote:
>
> Years ago (late 1980s) I had a friend in social work tell me
> stories about clients and friends of clients that were taking
> steroids for strictly cosmetic reasons. No sports or any of
> that shit, they just wanted to look better at the beach.
>
> Bob Schwartz
That sounds pretty typical of most of the gym rats using 'roids too.
95% of them are never going to compete in anything other than, maybe,
a local bench press competition and BSing each other about who's
better. One quick way to spot a poser at the gym is chicken legs.
Building good, symetrical legs is just plain hard, heavy work, and
calves, especially, are incredibly painful to really work to
exhaustion.
Even with drugs you've still got to do the work to get the results.
Bill C
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| | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 12:16:56
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On Apr 5, 7:07 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org > wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2007 14:03:11 -0700, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
>
> <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> >OTOH, I also read recently that cheerleading is the athletic
> >pursuit (I'm not going to call it a sport) with the highest
> >injury rate for women.
>
> My wife has no problem watching the latest rider take their bike to
> the wall in the Giro on the downhills, but has a real problem with the
> cheerleaders at the basketball games being tossed in the air. I keep
> telling her the floor has lots of bounce. Although I do think the
> problem is more with knees that landing on their heads doing flips.
> Between braces and wraps, the cheerleading squad at U of MD sometimes
> looks like the waiting line at an orthopedic clinic.
There's a selection bias here: you only see the ones
with braces from knee injuries, because the ones who
break their necks get cut from the squad.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/31/sports/31cheerleader.html
"Emergency room visits for cheerleading injuries nationwide
have more than doubled since the early 1990s, far outpacing
the growth in the number of cheerleaders, and the rate of life-
threatening injuries has startled researchers. Of 104
catastrophic injuries sustained by female high school and
college athletes from 1982 to 2005 - head and spinal trauma
that occasionally led to death - more than half resulted
from cheerleading, according to the National Center for
Catastrophic Sports Injury Research. All sports combined
did not surpass cheerleading."
"In 2005, the National Collegiate Athletic Association's
Catastrophic Injury Insurance Program found that 25 percent
of the money spent on claims for student-athletes since 1998
resulted from cheerleading. That made it second only to
football. The ratio of cheerleaders to football players is
about 12 to 100."
Seriously, I had no idea this was an issue. They attribute
it to inexperienced coaches and pressure to perform more
acrobatic stunts - although, you never know, maybe it's
because the cheerleaders are bigger and stronger from
abusing steroids, and can throw people higher into the air.
Ben
Don't laugh, you know it's happening somewhere
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Apr 2007 23:46:43
From: Steve
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
>
> "Emergency room visits for cheerleading injuries nationwide
> have more than doubled since the early 1990s, far outpacing
> the growth in the number of cheerleaders, and the rate of life-
> threatening injuries has startled researchers. Of 104
> catastrophic injuries sustained by female high school and
> college athletes from 1982 to 2005 - head and spinal trauma
> that occasionally led to death - more than half resulted
> from cheerleading, according to the National Center for
> Catastrophic Sports Injury Research. All sports combined
> did not surpass cheerleading."
>
> "In 2005, the National Collegiate Athletic Association's
> Catastrophic Injury Insurance Program found that 25 percent
> of the money spent on claims for student-athletes since 1998
> resulted from cheerleading. That made it second only to
> football. The ratio of cheerleaders to football players is
> about 12 to 100."
>
> Seriously, I had no idea this was an issue. They attribute
> it to inexperienced coaches and pressure to perform more
> acrobatic stunts - although, you never know, maybe it's
> because the cheerleaders are bigger and stronger from
> abusing steroids, and can throw people higher into the air.
>
> Ben
> Don't laugh, you know it's happening somewhere
>
>
Our Prez GWBush was a male Cheerleader at Yale back-in-the-day. Did he
suffer any injuries ?
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Apr 2007 06:05:27
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
In article
<1175800615.954645.286340@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 7:07 am, Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> > On 4 Apr 2007 14:03:11 -0700, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org"
> >
> > <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> > >OTOH, I also read recently that cheerleading is the athletic
> > >pursuit (I'm not going to call it a sport) with the highest
> > >injury rate for women.
> >
> > My wife has no problem watching the latest rider take their bike to
> > the wall in the Giro on the downhills, but has a real problem with the
> > cheerleaders at the basketball games being tossed in the air. I keep
> > telling her the floor has lots of bounce. Although I do think the
> > problem is more with knees that landing on their heads doing flips.
> > Between braces and wraps, the cheerleading squad at U of MD sometimes
> > looks like the waiting line at an orthopedic clinic.
>
> There's a selection bias here: you only see the ones
> with braces from knee injuries, because the ones who
> break their necks get cut from the squad.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/31/sports/31cheerleader.html
>
> "Emergency room visits for cheerleading injuries nationwide
> have more than doubled since the early 1990s, far outpacing
> the growth in the number of cheerleaders, and the rate of life-
> threatening injuries has startled researchers. Of 104
> catastrophic injuries sustained by female high school and
> college athletes from 1982 to 2005 - head and spinal trauma
> that occasionally led to death - more than half resulted
> from cheerleading, according to the National Center for
> Catastrophic Sports Injury Research. All sports combined
> did not surpass cheerleading."
>
> "In 2005, the National Collegiate Athletic Association's
> Catastrophic Injury Insurance Program found that 25 percent
> of the money spent on claims for student-athletes since 1998
> resulted from cheerleading. That made it second only to
> football. The ratio of cheerleaders to football players is
> about 12 to 100."
>
> Seriously, I had no idea this was an issue. They attribute
> it to inexperienced coaches and pressure to perform more
> acrobatic stunts - although, you never know, maybe it's
> because the cheerleaders are bigger and stronger from
> abusing steroids, and can throw people higher into the air.
>
> Ben
> Don't laugh, you know it's happening somewhere
I am laughing. All the nannying that goes into
protecting children from themselves is shoveling shit
against the tide. My parents worried, but I was off the
leash out there doing stupid things and so were all the
other kids. I think heavy drug use, tattoos, piercing,
and stupid cheerleader stunts are the inevitable result
of over-supervised childhoods.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 15:56:07
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
In article <1175800615.954645.286340@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
> "In 2005, the National Collegiate Athletic Association's
> Catastrophic Injury Insurance Program found that 25 percent
> of the money spent on claims for student-athletes since 1998
> resulted from cheerleading. That made it second only to
> football. The ratio of cheerleaders to football players is
> about 12 to 100."
>
> Seriously, I had no idea this was an issue. They attribute
> it to inexperienced coaches and pressure to perform more
> acrobatic stunts
Mostly because it's on TV now. People see them do some stunt and have to one-up
them.
> - although, you never know, maybe it's
> because the cheerleaders are bigger and stronger from
> abusing steroids, and can throw people higher into the air.
>
> Ben
> Don't laugh, you know it's happening somewhere
I'm laughing precisely because I'm sure it's happening somewhere.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 19:46:18
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Seriously, I had no idea this was an issue. They attribute
> it to inexperienced coaches and pressure to perform more
> acrobatic stunts - although, you never know, maybe it's
> because the cheerleaders are bigger and stronger from
> abusing steroids, and can throw people higher into the air.
>
> Ben
> Don't laugh, you know it's happening somewhere
Years ago (late 1980s) I had a friend in social work tell me
stories about clients and friends of clients that were taking
steroids for strictly cosmetic reasons. No sports or any of
that shit, they just wanted to look better at the beach.
I don't know why we expect athletic ability to indicate
ethical purity. If people are going to dope for the hell of
it, it seems reasonable to expect people to dope for dumbass
reasons like fred rides and masters races and certainly to
feed 12k dreamer aspirations. Cheerleaders at least are
performing in front of audiences larger than other
cheerleaders and their girlfriends in industrial parks.
Bob Schwartz
|
| | | |
Date: 05 Apr 2007 15:32:18
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
On 5 Apr 2007 12:16:56 -0700, "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org > wrote:
>There's a selection bias here: you only see the ones
>with braces from knee injuries, because the ones who
>break their necks get cut from the squad.
Hard, hard...
But I guess you're telling me my wife is right after all - the floor
doesn't have much bounce.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
|
| |
Date: 03 Apr 2007 16:34:01
From: Bob Schwartz
Subject: Re: ullrich dna analyzed
|
bjorn wrote:
> German media just reported that his DNA matches the DNA found in blood
> in operation Puerto "without a doubt", according to sid
> (sportinformationsdienst).
I bet he wishes he'd have gone into football rather than
bike racing.
Bob Schwartz
|
|
