A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

bicycle-forum.net
Promoting biking discussion.

Main

Date: 19 Feb 2005 08:05:44
From:
Subject: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

It sure is nice to know that a few people are
prepared for the $48. a barrel oil and are
laughing about it. Happy Presidents Day

It's a gas, gas, gas.......

Date: 24 Feb 2005 16:02:56
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Tom Sherman wrote:

> Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
> defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back
over
> the fence into your yard.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

Why not just dig a small hole for them in your yard and bury them in
your yard? After all the feces have been produced, that is a fact that
you can't change and whatever odours they produce as they decay will be
near enough your yard to smell whether you throw them over your
neighbours fence or not. Plus by just burying them in your yard you
won't have to get your rubber gloves soiled. All metaphorically
speaking, of course.

Zach

Date: 24 Feb 2005 20:48:47
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Zach:

In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more is
there to say?

I can understand, after a fashion, why people hate the US, or why they hate
the authority it represents. In a sense I understand the resentment
expressed by people like Ward Churchill about all those "little Eichmans" in
the World Trade Center. But subtract the resentment, the rage, that modern
therapy says we ought to acknowledge for our own mental health, and it seems
reasonable to ask is he right that those financial planners in the WTC were
"little Eichmans?" The first hurdle would seem to be whether it were true
that their actions impoverished, rather than enriched, people that were
deemed their "victims." The research consensus on this is quite clear:
although there are losers and winners as a result of any policy, the net
effect of trade is a welfare benefit, which is born out by a documented net
transfer of wealth from developed to developing nations for the last fifty
years.

But assuming that was not the case, and there were a net harm... is it the
case that the people in the WTC were knowledgable about this, as one might
expect the bureoucrats in the Third Reich were about the effect of their
actions on the Jews? That's not very likely, since the literature (as I
pointed out) points in the very opposite direction. At most, they were
duped by the literature into believing they were helping... which suggests
they were never appropriate targets for anything.

What have we left? Human injustice (which we've admittedly failed to
eliminate), poverty (likewise), and an understandable resentment about the
human condition. So, should we take Ward Churchill's allegations seriously,
or should we pity him and those who sympathize with his arguments? Should
we join his cause, or should we seek to develop those undeveloped economies,
free people from the grip of authoritarianism and tyranny, and expand
economic opportunity through trade, making his cause a moot point?

There is a great deal wrong in the world. The "haves" are far more self
absorbed than they ought to be. But I see no reason to give the slightest
legitimacy to the Ward Churchills or the Michael Moores of the world. They
could be addressing real and actual wrongs, but have instead taken an old
tried and not-very-true shortcut, followed by the Stalinists before them.
They deserve not the slightest respect, no matter the respect earned or
unearned by George Bush and Company.
--
--Scott
"Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1109289776.845907.145960@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>> Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
>> defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back
> over
>> the fence into your yard.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
> Why not just dig a small hole for them in your yard and bury them in
> your yard? After all the feces have been produced, that is a fact that
> you can't change and whatever odours they produce as they decay will be
> near enough your yard to smell whether you throw them over your
> neighbours fence or not. Plus by just burying them in your yard you
> won't have to get your rubber gloves soiled. All metaphorically
> speaking, of course.
>
> Zach
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 20:18:20
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Zach:
>
> In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
> accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more is
> there to say?...

That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).

However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments
that the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
populations.

All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they
effect their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or
willfully not looking.

And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public
forum devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.

--
Tom Sherman -

Date: 24 Feb 2005 22:06:32
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387fv0F5kfv95U1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Zach:
>>
>> In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
>> accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>> is there to say?...
>
> That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).

<quote >EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote >

>
> However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
> unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
> civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments that
> the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
> populations.

Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the left
deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was the
policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high ground
you might have claimed.
>
> All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
> people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
> population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they effect
> their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully not
> looking.

I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure so
discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of the
Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with "big
business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.
>
> And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public forum
> devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.

Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
control?

The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of leftist
totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.

It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor. It's
that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at all.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman -
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:09:37
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

This missing isn't posted under Tom's post, because something in the header
of that post is apparently corrupted. So I'm trying to post it as a reply
to my message instead, to see if the NNTP server will take it. Probably
won't work, but worth a try.

>>>However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
>>>unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
>>>civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments
>>>that the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
>>>populations.
>>
>>
>> Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
>> justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the
>> left deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was
>> the policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
>> supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
>> By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high
>> ground you might have claimed.
>
> If Cheney/Rove et al truly believe in freedom and opportunity for all, the
> moon is made of green cheese. I am not that gullible.

I'll be honest with you, Tom, I don't really give a damn what they believe
in. I don't demand that people do the right thing for the right reasons.
I'm just not that pure.

>
>>>All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
>>>people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
>>>population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they
>>>effect their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully
>>>not looking.
>>
>>
>> I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure
>> so discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of
>> the Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with
>> "big business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.
>
> What do you suppose my proposed cure is?

Some sort of heavy confiscation and redistribution through taxation, I
imagine. Of course heading ultimately in the direction of a pure form of
socialism, where private property is, at best, subject to some severe
constraints.

>
> Typical right wing - anyone who disagrees with Rove/Norquist/Strauss et al
> is a supporter of murderous, totalitarian, command economy regimes
> exemplified by Stalin and Brother No. 1.

Strauss is dead. I don't think Rove is a Straussian, and I don't think
Norquist is all that trustworthy. But I'm chiefly concerned that we have a
foreign policy commitment to the "Sharansky Test," though I hope we're a
little pragmatic about how we implement it.
>
> Have you noticed how all the people in Scandinavia and Benelux are living
> miserable lives in abject poverty surrounded by violence? Yes, I am a
> horrible person for wishing the living conditions in those countries on
> other people.

Actually the suicide rate in Scandinavia is very high, but that may or may
not be due to socialism. (It's probably a combination of unemployment and
the weather.) They have a high unemployment rate, though. The best thing
they have going for them, at least until recently, was *lack* of diversity.
They were extremely homogeneous societies. That has been changing a lot,
with the influx of people abandoning the Ummah, and it is creating serious
tensions. Again, I think the answer for Europe is probably to improve
conditions in the Ummah so that people aren't so anxious to emigrate.
>
>>>And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public
>>>forum devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you
>>>get.
>>
>>
>> Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
>> control?
>
> I was using apology in the sense of providing support for a position.

Fair enough.
>
>> The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
>> and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
>> effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of
>> leftist totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.
>>
>> It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor.
>> It's that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
>> Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
>> anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at
>> all.
>
> You of course deliberately misrepresent what my "proposed cure" is. And
> you were the one to whine about debating tactics.

I don't misrepresent it. Granted, I don't know it. I'm assuming it's some
form of needs-based socialism, though. Right?

>
> If you haven't figured it out by now, I really don't care what you think,
> and have no interest in changing your mind. But I am happy to fling the
> crap right back when someone else dumps it in an inappropriate space. So
> if you don't want to see any more political posts from me, two solutions
> are really obvious.

I'm somewhat interested in changing your mind, because I think you're wrong
about a lot of stuff and I still have respect for human intelligence. I'd
rather you were right. I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly
wrong, but then I probably haven't considered all the ramifications.

And I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly anti-Bush. He's never
going to run for anything again, after all. You'd actually be better served
being anti-Governator, or anti-Giulliani, or maybe anti-Rice. I don't know
who the Republicans have that could beat Clinton, but she doesn't agree with
you about Iraq anyway. I think it'd be a hoot to see a Clinton vs. Rice
race, but not having previously run for elective office would be a big
disadvantage for Rice. Maybe she could handle it though.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 25 Feb 2005 00:29:54
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...
> And I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly anti-Bush. He's never
> going to run for anything again, after all. You'd actually be better served
> being anti-Governator...

Well, there is a precedent for a mediocre actor becoming Governor of
California and then a mediocre US President.

> or anti-Giulliani,...

Bernie Kerik, enough said.

> or maybe anti-Rice....

Then the race based Republican "southern strategy" goes out the window.
More likely the powers that be in the Republican Party will select Jeb
Bush as the anti McCain.

--
Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 25 Feb 2005 06:58:00
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387umoF5g1eckU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...
>> And I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly anti-Bush. He's
>> never
>> going to run for anything again, after all. You'd actually be better
>> served
>> being anti-Governator...
>
> Well, there is a precedent for a mediocre actor becoming Governor of
> California and then a mediocre US President.
>
>> or anti-Giulliani,...
>
> Bernie Kerik, enough said.

Actually, it's enough that Giulliani is an eastern "progressive" Republican
who favors gun control. That's enough to keep him from getting the
nomination.

>
>> or maybe anti-Rice....
>
> Then the race based Republican "southern strategy" goes out the window.

Assuming there is such a strategy, which of course there isn't. And I just
have a hunch she'd get a few more black voters than Bush ever got.

> More likely the powers that be in the Republican Party will select Jeb
> Bush as the anti McCain.

Jeb Bush says he won't run, and I tend to believe him. He doesn't want to
be president. Can you imagine? As for McCain, damn near every Republican
is anti McCain. There's no way he'll get the nomination. Plus, he's just
plain too old now anyway.

Seriously, I think Hillary has a very good shot at becoming the next
President, but it won't stop the Democrat slide. I have no idea whether
Rice will run, but this picture tells me that if she does... she might be
pretty formidable, even for the Queen Bee.

http://www.overpressure.com/archives/drrice.html
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 07:46:12
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:Y%zTd.39803$uc.13136@trnddc08...
<snip >

> Seriously, I think Hillary has a very good shot at becoming the next
> President, but it won't stop the Democrat slide. I have no idea whether
> Rice will run, but this picture tells me that if she does... she might be
> pretty formidable, even for the Queen Bee.
>
> http://www.overpressure.com/archives/drrice.html

Then there is the photo of Hillary from her recent trip to Iraq. In this
photo she shown shaking hands with a smiling ine who is giving the ine
distress signal with his left hand. No doubt this brave ine is in big
trouble with the politically correct ine Corp upper brass. But he sure
made my day.

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:05:33
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > Freewheeling <= wrote:

> I have no idea whether
>Rice will run, but this picture tells me that if she does... she might be
>pretty formidable, even for the Queen Bee.
>
>http://www.overpressure.com/archives/drrice.html

You think that's something? Check out these pics:

http://www.condiriceisangry.com/

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 04:20:02
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

G.:

Frankly, those are just a bunch of head shots. The thing about the WaPo
picture is partly the Matrix attire, along with the commanding presence
before an adoring audience. The conventional wisdom among political
scientists is that previous experience as a candidate is worth about 10
percentage points in the vote, which is why a lot of untried candidates lose
their first time. But if there were ever going to be an exception to that
rule, it'd be Condi. One thing a Rice candidacy would do. It'd put to rest
that "southern strategy" canard.

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:422dce11.40237097@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
>> I have no idea whether
>>Rice will run, but this picture tells me that if she does... she might be
>>pretty formidable, even for the Queen Bee.
>>
>>http://www.overpressure.com/archives/drrice.html
>
>
>
>
> You think that's something? Check out these pics:
>
> http://www.condiriceisangry.com/
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 02:06:01
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Someone has way too much time on their hands to make that page, besides that
those pictures don't even show here angry, I doubt if I want to be around if
that ever happens

--
www.lifeonabaron.blogspot.com

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:422dce11.40237097@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
> > I have no idea whether
> >Rice will run, but this picture tells me that if she does... she might be
> >pretty formidable, even for the Queen Bee.
> >
> >http://www.overpressure.com/archives/drrice.html
>
>
>
>
> You think that's something? Check out these pics:
>
> http://www.condiriceisangry.com/
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 02:41:33
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>Someone has way too much time on their hands to make that page, besides that
>those pictures don't even show here angry, I doubt if I want to be around if
>that ever happens

Jeezus Christ k --- you look like you just escaped from Huntsville.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/147/3309/320/k%20looking.jpg

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 17:07:17
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

BTW you missed the picture of me flipping you off again, I can put it back
up if you want

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:4231e494.46000184@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >Someone has way too much time on their hands to make that page, besides
that
> >those pictures don't even show here angry, I doubt if I want to be around
if
> >that ever happens
>
>
> Jeezus Christ k --- you look like you just escaped from Huntsville.
>
> http://photos1.blogger.com/img/147/3309/320/k%20looking.jpg
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 17:49:54
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>BTW you missed the picture of me flipping you off again, I can put it back
>up if you want

No thanks, I saw it.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:30:28
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:421fb991.16323061@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >BTW you missed the picture of me flipping you off again, I can put it
back
> >up if you want
>
>
> No thanks, I saw it.
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham

To be honest the first one two years ago was better, the clothing I was
wearing this time tended to obscure my finger. I'll do better next time.

BTW since you now appear to like hanging out in this forum when are you
getting a recumbent? They have a few shops in Austin although I think all
they sell are OPB's

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:42:47
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>
>To be honest the first one two years ago was better, the clothing I was
>wearing this time tended to obscure my finger. I'll do better next time.

I remember that one... It was really good, kind of "in your face".

>BTW since you now appear to like hanging out in this forum when are you
>getting a recumbent? They have a few shops in Austin although I think all
>they sell are OPB's

I don't know, there are other things on the list before one of those.

Now that Ed aint coming back, I might as well leave you boring lot of old men.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:31:28
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:4229fd61.33682973@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >
> >To be honest the first one two years ago was better, the clothing I was
> >wearing this time tended to obscure my finger. I'll do better next time.
>
> I remember that one... It was really good, kind of "in your face".

I was 50 pounds heavier then, my finger was well defined against the
backdrop of my prominent stomach

> >BTW since you now appear to like hanging out in this forum when are you
> >getting a recumbent? They have a few shops in Austin although I think all
> >they sell are OPB's
>
> I don't know, there are other things on the list before one of those.

G's list

1. Budweiser
2. Coors
3. Miller Genuine Draft
4.
5. Pizza

115. Recumbent bike

> Now that Ed aint coming back, I might as well leave you boring lot of old
men.

Damn and you were so entertaining too

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:44:55
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:421fb991.16323061@news.x-privat.org...
>
>>Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
>>Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>>=> k Leuck <= wrote:
>>
>>
>>>BTW you missed the picture of me flipping you off again, I can put it
>
> back
>
>>>up if you want
>>
>>
>>No thanks, I saw it.
>>
>>
>>--
>>
>>-Graham
>
>
> To be honest the first one two years ago was better, the clothing I was
> wearing this time tended to obscure my finger. I'll do better next time.
>
> BTW since you now appear to like hanging out in this forum when are you
> getting a recumbent? They have a few shops in Austin although I think all
> they sell are OPB's

I understand that Robert L. Bass likes his RANS Vivo, so Graham Morgan
should consider getting one. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:59:07
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:14:12
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a2c8F5l3irbU1@individual.net...

>
> I understand that Robert L. Bass likes his RANS Vivo, so Graham Morgan
> should consider getting one. ;)
>
Tom:

I understood Robert L. Bass was trying sell his Vivo. I'm sure Bass would
let it go for a song to his friend Graham. But maybe not. Maybe you need
to broker the deal for Graham. You and Bass always got along, saw eye to eye
things, and you have that Bush hatred thing in common.

It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
together. They are both in Texas you know.

It's worth trying to put a deal together, don't you think?
Why don't you see what you can work out with Bass?

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:44:14
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > skip <= wrote:

> understood Robert L. Bass was trying sell his Vivo. I'm sure Bass would
>let it go for a song to his friend Graham. But maybe not. Maybe you need
>to broker the deal for Graham. You and Bass always got along, saw eye to eye
>things, and you have that Bush hatred thing in common.
>
>It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
>together. They are both in Texas you know.
>
>It's worth trying to put a deal together, don't you think?
>Why don't you see what you can work out with Bass?

LOL!!! He wouldn't let it go cheap though, he spent a small fortune modifying
the frame to support his fat-ass.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:00:25
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...

>
> It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
> together. They are both in Texas you know.

Sorry skip but that ride will never happen
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:45:01
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>
>"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
>news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
>
>>
>> It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
>> together. They are both in Texas you know.
>
>Sorry skip but that ride will never happen

Awwwwww shucks! And I had my little tight pants and silly shoes on!

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:28:41
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:422bfea9.34011235@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >
> >"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> >news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
> >
> >>
> >> It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some
rides
> >> together. They are both in Texas you know.
> >
> >Sorry skip but that ride will never happen
>
>
>
> Awwwwww shucks! And I had my little tight pants and silly shoes on!

Lol like you even know where to find those tight pants and silly shoes G
much less afford to buy them

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:21:18
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
>
>
>>It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
>>together. They are both in Texas you know.
>
>
> Sorry skip but that ride will never happen

You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
Moderator". ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:26:15
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38abhhF5lmhiaU2@individual.net...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
> > "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> > news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
> >
> >
> >>It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some
rides
> >>together. They are both in Texas you know.
> >
> >
> > Sorry skip but that ride will never happen
>
> You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
> Moderator". ;)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

From what I've heard Robert hurt his knee last year and talks about riding
again, Jacob nobody has heard from for over 2 years now, Frank is in Canada
somewhere talking about a tail dragging Cessna and rolling a 737 and from
what I've heard Group Moderator rides a different form of 2 wheels if you
know what I mean

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:17:16
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:JdOdnSuMgoHFi73fRVn-sw@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38abhhF5lmhiaU2@individual.net...
> > k Leuck wrote:
> >
> > > "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
> > >
> > >
> > >>It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some
> rides
> > >>together. They are both in Texas you know.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sorry skip but that ride will never happen
> >
> > You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
> > Moderator". ;)
> >
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Earth
>
> From what I've heard Robert hurt his knee last year and talks about riding
> again, Jacob nobody has heard from for over 2 years now, Frank is in
Canada
> somewhere talking about a tail dragging Cessna and rolling a 737 and from
> what I've heard Group Moderator rides a different form of 2 wheels if you
> know what I mean

That last part should read "4 wheels if you know what I mean"

The 20" wheels on the back and 4" in the front kind

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:46:46
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38abhhF5lmhiaU2@individual.net...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
>> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
>> news:ksqdnQBxq73hdILfRVn-3g@giganews.com...
>>
>>
>>>It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some
>>>rides
>>>together. They are both in Texas you know.
>>
>>
>> Sorry skip but that ride will never happen
>
> You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
> Moderator". ;)
>
> --

I'd be there for that one. Did Ashbury retire? Don't recall hearing
anything from him in a long time.

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:45:52
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > Tom Sherman <= wrote:

>You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
>Moderator". ;)

3 out of four aint bad. We have not heard from Jake in some time, I think Bass
ate him.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:27:14
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:422cfed8.34058333@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Tom Sherman <= wrote:
>
> >You could also invite Robert Bass, Jacob Ashbury, Frank Olson and "Group
> >Moderator". ;)
>
>
> 3 out of four aint bad. We have not heard from Jake in some time, I think
Bass
> ate him.

My guess is you can find Jake either hanging out in some local bar at
Alabama

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:55:31
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>My guess is you can find Jake either hanging out in some local bar at
>Alabama

[in] Alabama... or????? OR WHERE K??

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:16:08
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:42331d3f.41841384@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >My guess is you can find Jake either hanging out in some local bar at
> >Alabama
>
> [in] Alabama... or????? OR WHERE K??

I deleted the other part figuring it was a little too dark, it was

"or laying along side some Alabama road dead"

Jake was another who claimed he'd be around forever hounding Bass

Date: 26 Feb 2005 16:59:58
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:DZ-dnX3B1rrkGb3fRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>
> "G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:42331d3f.41841384@news.x-privat.org...
>> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
>> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>>
>> >My guess is you can find Jake either hanging out in some local bar at
>> >Alabama
>>
>> [in] Alabama... or????? OR WHERE K??
>
> I deleted the other part figuring it was a little too dark, it was
>
> "or laying along side some Alabama road dead"
>
> Jake was another who claimed he'd be around forever hounding Bass
>

OK, I have to ask. Last time I was posting here there were some people from
outside harrassing Bass, determined to be mostly business competitors I
think, but most of the group rallied to his defense. Did some on the group
join the attack? Did some of the allegations turn out to be true?

Fill me in.

Date: 26 Feb 2005 18:08:18
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:iW1Ud.13422$QQ3.6705@trnddc02...
>
> OK, I have to ask. Last time I was posting here there were some people
from
> outside harrassing Bass, determined to be mostly business competitors I
> think, but most of the group rallied to his defense. Did some on the
group
> join the attack? Did some of the allegations turn out to be true?
>
> Fill me in.

Well right now Bass is on vacation in Brazil with his wife for another 2
weeks I think, Group Moderator hasn't been seen for about 2 months so either
he's passed on or busy getting a refil of Prozac

Bass's problems are mostly of his own making, he was in the industry for 20
years (up for debate to some) then sold the business and moved to Florida
following an apparently nasty divorce (my speculation here). Much of the
problem is he tends to cut down everyone else in the security industry (not
just those in the newsgroup) for the sole reason of promoting his site, add
to that the fact he is a convicted felon (Florida conviction 1979 assaulting
a relative with a gun), fake posts using aliases on the newsgroup and
private forums and you see where all this is going.

On the flip side you have total morons like Group Moderator (Mike), Frank
Olson and our buddy G Morgan here who play the "one-up" game to the extreme
to catch him in a lie while most of the time making themselves out to look
like idiots, it come and goes and at time I've been involved in it too
although not to the same extent. While they are morons much of the
harrassing of RLB is deserved and often he encourages it to again sell
product by making himself out to be the "victim".

.While Robert will tell you the people against him are competitors the
reality is nobody competes with him since his choice of DIY security system
business is a speck on the wall as far as numbers compared to the industry
in general, he tends to say this to puff himself up to the newbies in the
newsgroup and try to sell them something. Almost everyone on the newsgroup
ends up disliking the guy for one reason or another including me, some take
it to the extreme like making web pages, posting divorce information etc.

You don't have to believe any of this but hang around that forum for a year
or so and you'll understand

Date: 26 Feb 2005 19:25:44
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>Well right now Bass is on vacation in Brazil with his wife for another 2
>weeks I think, Group Moderator hasn't been seen for about 2 months so either
>he's passed on or busy getting a refil of Prozac
>
>Bass's problems are mostly of his own making, he was in the industry for 20
>years (up for debate to some) then sold the business and moved to Florida
>following an apparently nasty divorce (my speculation here). Much of the
>problem is he tends to cut down everyone else in the security industry (not
>just those in the newsgroup) for the sole reason of promoting his site, add
>to that the fact he is a convicted felon (Florida conviction 1979 assaulting
>a relative with a gun), fake posts using aliases on the newsgroup and
>private forums and you see where all this is going.
>
>On the flip side you have total morons like Group Moderator (Mike), Frank
>Olson and our buddy G Morgan here who play the "one-up" game to the extreme
>to catch him in a lie while most of the time making themselves out to look
>like idiots, it come and goes and at time I've been involved in it too
>although not to the same extent. While they are morons much of the
>harrassing of RLB is deserved and often he encourages it to again sell
>product by making himself out to be the "victim".
>
>.While Robert will tell you the people against him are competitors the
>reality is nobody competes with him since his choice of DIY security system
>business is a speck on the wall as far as numbers compared to the industry
>in general, he tends to say this to puff himself up to the newbies in the
>newsgroup and try to sell them something. Almost everyone on the newsgroup
>ends up disliking the guy for one reason or another including me, some take
>it to the extreme like making web pages, posting divorce information etc.
>
>You don't have to believe any of this but hang around that forum for a year
>or so and you'll understand
>

I agree with everything k said, except the part about me being a "moron".

In addition to the info k gave, Bass also won't hesitate to take his Usenet
quarrels "real life". He actually found out where I worked and called my boss.
He lied and told him I used our company's resources to run a credit check on
him. My boss knew he was full of shit, but still - it goes to show what a
nefarious bastard Bass is.

All is calm in ASA right now, but wait about two weeks for all hell to break
loose again.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 23:40:57
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:42222046.108152064@news.x-privat.org...
>
> I agree with everything k said, except the part about me being a
"moron".

Lol that is still up for debate, some of your rants support what I say tho

> In addition to the info k gave, Bass also won't hesitate to take his
Usenet
> quarrels "real life". He actually found out where I worked and called my
boss.
> He lied and told him I used our company's resources to run a credit check
on
> him. My boss knew he was full of shit, but still - it goes to show what a
> nefarious bastard Bass is.

Yup forgot about that although with some of the things you've said to him
you deserved it, as far as I know he's never called anyone else's employer
in the NG including mine that I know of, doesn't that tell you something?

> All is calm in ASA right now, but wait about two weeks for all hell to
break
> loose again.

Tom Fowler once told me if RLB ever left he'd drag him back in at all costs
because otherwise the NG would be boring, look at it now, no Mike, no Bass,
Frank's almost calm and you rarely post...boring :)

Date: 26 Feb 2005 23:58:59
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > k Leuck <= wrote:

>
>"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
>news:42222046.108152064@news.x-privat.org...
>>
>> I agree with everything k said, except the part about me being a
>>"moron".
>
>Lol that is still up for debate, some of your rants support what I say tho

I wouldn't say my rants support your position. I take every opportunity to
discredit fat-ass I can get. Does it make me look like a loud-mouthed jerk
sometimes? Yes.
But....

I get email all the time from his prospective customers asking why I hate him so
much. I have a way a dissuading them from buying from him (without lying).

>> My boss knew he was full of shit, but still - it goes to show what a
>> nefarious bastard Bass is.
>
>Yup forgot about that although with some of the things you've said to him
>you deserved it, as far as I know he's never called anyone else's employer
>in the NG including mine that I know of, doesn't that tell you something?

What exactly did I do that was any different? The only difference was I was
vulnerable. Granted, you never got as 'hard-core' as I. The only thing I can
think of is that he might still think he can use you somehow.

>
>> All is calm in ASA right now, but wait about two weeks for all hell to
>break
>> loose again.
>
>Tom Fowler once told me if RLB ever left he'd drag him back in at all costs
>because otherwise the NG would be boring, look at it now, no Mike, no Bass,
>Frank's almost calm and you rarely post...boring :)

Tom told me on the phone that he would kick the ever-loving shit out of fat-ass,
given the right circumstances. I'd like to see that. I'm not much of a
brawler, but if that fucker ever interferes with my personal life again he'll
see what I'm capable of.

Did Tom tell you his TX plans?

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 27 Feb 2005 08:57:22
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:42285ee9.124187091@news.x-privat.org...
>
> I wouldn't say my rants support your position. I take every opportunity
to
> discredit fat-ass I can get. Does it make me look like a loud-mouthed
jerk
> sometimes? Yes.

Sometimes? Try always lol

> I get email all the time from his prospective customers asking why I hate
him so
> much. I have a way a dissuading them from buying from him (without
lying).

Keep dreaming, RLB is a lot of things but he doesn't rip people off with his
website

> >Yup forgot about that although with some of the things you've said to him
> >you deserved it, as far as I know he's never called anyone else's
employer
> >in the NG including mine that I know of, doesn't that tell you something?
>
>
> What exactly did I do that was any different? The only difference was I
was
> vulnerable. Granted, you never got as 'hard-core' as I. The only thing I
can
> think of is that he might still think he can use you somehow.

I seriously doubt that, my guess is he doesn't do anything to me because I
don't do things like call his wife a "Brazilian bitch"

> Tom told me on the phone that he would kick the ever-loving shit out of
fat-ass,
> given the right circumstances. I'd like to see that. I'm not much of a
> brawler, but if that fucker ever interferes with my personal life again
he'll
> see what I'm capable of.

I like Tom but he tends to say a lot of things and I doubt Bass is shaking
in his boot over anything you'll ever do, if you haven't done anything by
now you never will

> Did Tom tell you his TX plans?

Tom's been talking about TX plans for 2 years now, and Indiana, and...and...

Date: 26 Feb 2005 11:16:25
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:DZ-dnX3B1rrkGb3fRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>
>>"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:42331d3f.41841384@news.x-privat.org...
>>
>>>Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
>>>Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>>>=> k Leuck <= wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>My guess is you can find Jake either hanging out in some local bar at
>>>>Alabama
>>>
>>>[in] Alabama... or????? OR WHERE K??
>>
>>I deleted the other part figuring it was a little too dark, it was
>>
>>"or laying along side some Alabama road dead"
>>
>>Jake was another who claimed he'd be around forever hounding Bass
>>
>
>
>
> OK, I have to ask. Last time I was posting here there were some people from
> outside harrassing Bass, determined to be mostly business competitors I
> think, but most of the group rallied to his defense. Did some on the group
> join the attack? Did some of the allegations turn out to be true?
>
> Fill me in.

See <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent >.

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:25:55
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a2c8F5l3irbU1@individual.net...
>
>
>>I understand that Robert L. Bass likes his RANS Vivo, so Graham Morgan
>>should consider getting one. ;)
>>
>
> Tom:
>
> I understood Robert L. Bass was trying sell his Vivo. I'm sure Bass would
> let it go for a song to his friend Graham. But maybe not. Maybe you need
> to broker the deal for Graham. You and Bass always got along, saw eye to eye
> things, and you have that Bush hatred thing in common.
>
> It would be great if Graham and k could meet half way and do some rides
> together. They are both in Texas you know.
>
> It's worth trying to put a deal together, don't you think?
> Why don't you see what you can work out with Bass?

I could always try something less challenging like convincing Fabrizio
Mazzoleni to buy a NoCom. ;)

I actually have only brokered one deal, which was finding a purple Earth
Cycles Sunset Lowracer [TM] a new home.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 17:00:20
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

That was the idea, everyone I know hated that picture which is why I used it

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:4231e494.46000184@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => k Leuck <= wrote:
>
> >Someone has way too much time on their hands to make that page, besides
that
> >those pictures don't even show here angry, I doubt if I want to be around
if
> >that ever happens
>
>
> Jeezus Christ k --- you look like you just escaped from Huntsville.
>
> http://photos1.blogger.com/img/147/3309/320/k%20looking.jpg
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 24 Feb 2005 21:30:25
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:387fv0F5kfv95U1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Zach:
>>>
>>>In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
>>>accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>>>is there to say?...
>>
>>That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).
>
>
> <quote>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
> ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote>
>
>>However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
>>unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
>>civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments that
>>the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
>>populations.
>
>
> Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
> justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the left
> deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was the
> policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
> supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
> By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high ground
> you might have claimed.

If Cheney/Rove et al truly believe in freedom and opportunity for all,
the moon is made of green cheese. I am not that gullible.

>>All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
>>people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
>>population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they effect
>>their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully not
>>looking.
>
>
> I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure so
> discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of the
> Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with "big
> business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.

What do you suppose my proposed cure is?

Typical right wing - anyone who disagrees with Rove/Norquist/Strauss et
al is a supporter of murderous, totalitarian, command economy regimes
exemplified by Stalin and Brother No. 1.

Have you noticed how all the people in Scandinavia and Benelux are
living miserable lives in abject poverty surrounded by violence? Yes, I
am a horrible person for wishing the living conditions in those
countries on other people.

>>And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public forum
>>devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you get.
>
>
> Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
> control?

I was using apology in the sense of providing support for a position.

> The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
> and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
> effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of leftist
> totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.
>
> It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor. It's
> that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
> Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
> anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at all.

You of course deliberately misrepresent what my "proposed cure" is. And
you were the one to whine about debating tactics.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I really don't care what you
think, and have no interest in changing your mind. But I am happy to
fling the crap right back when someone else dumps it in an inappropriate
space. So if you don't want to see any more political posts from me, two
solutions are really obvious.

--
Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 25 Feb 2005 06:35:19
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Alright, I can apparently reply using this NNTP server, but not the Berlin
one. At least, not to Tom Sherman. Anyway, here's the reply I sent to this
post earlier.

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387k65F5k3qcfU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387fv0F5kfv95U1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Zach:
>>>>
>>>>In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
>>>>accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>>>>is there to say?...
>>>
>>>That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).
>>
>>
>> <quote>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL
>> COVERT
>> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>> ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote>
>>
>>>However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
>>>unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
>>>civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments
>>>that the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
>>>populations.
>>
>>
>> Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
>> justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the
>> left deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was
>> the policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
>> supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
>> By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high
>> ground you might have claimed.
>

> If Cheney/Rove et al truly believe in freedom and opportunity for all, the
> moon is made of green cheese. I am not that gullible.

I'll be honest with you, Tom, I don't really give a damn what they believe
in. I don't demand that people do the right thing for the right reasons.
I'm just not that pure.

>
>>>All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
>>>people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
>>>population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they
>>>effect their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully
>>>not looking.
>>
>>
>> I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure
>> so discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of
>> the Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with
>> "big business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.
>
> What do you suppose my proposed cure is?

Some sort of heavy confiscation and redistribution through taxation, I
imagine. Of course heading ultimately in the direction of a pure form of
socialism, where private property is, at best, subject to some severe
constraints.

>
> Typical right wing - anyone who disagrees with Rove/Norquist/Strauss et al
> is a supporter of murderous, totalitarian, command economy regimes
> exemplified by Stalin and Brother No. 1.

Strauss is dead. I don't think Rove is a Straussian, and I don't think
Norquist is all that trustworthy. But I'm chiefly concerned that we have a
foreign policy commitment to the "Sharansky Test," though I hope we're a
little pragmatic about how we implement it.
>
> Have you noticed how all the people in Scandinavia and Benelux are living
> miserable lives in abject poverty surrounded by violence? Yes, I am a
> horrible person for wishing the living conditions in those countries on
> other people.

Actually the suicide rate in Scandinavia is very high, but that may or may
not be due to socialism. (It's probably a combination of unemployment and
the weather.) They have a high unemployment rate, though. The best thing
they have going for them, at least until recently, was *lack* of diversity.
They were extremely homogeneous societies. That has been changing a lot,
with the influx of people abandoning the Ummah, and it is creating serious
tensions. Again, I think the answer for Europe is probably to improve
conditions in the Ummah so that people aren't so anxious to emigrate.
>
>>>And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public
>>>forum devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you
>>>get.
>>
>>
>> Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
>> control?
>
> I was using apology in the sense of providing support for a position.

Fair enough.
>
>> The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
>> and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
>> effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of
>> leftist totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.
>>
>> It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor.
>> It's that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
>> Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
>> anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at
>> all.
>
> You of course deliberately misrepresent what my "proposed cure" is. And
> you were the one to whine about debating tactics.

I don't misrepresent it. Granted, I don't know it. I'm assuming it's some
form of needs-based socialism, though. Right?

>
> If you haven't figured it out by now, I really don't care what you think,
> and have no interest in changing your mind. But I am happy to fling the
> crap right back when someone else dumps it in an inappropriate space. So
> if you don't want to see any more political posts from me, two solutions
> are really obvious.

I'm somewhat interested in changing your mind, because I think you're wrong
about a lot of stuff and I still have respect for human intelligence. I'd
rather you were right. I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly
wrong, but then I probably haven't considered all the ramifications.

And I see no advantage at all in remaining stubbornly anti-Bush. He's never
going to run for anything again, after all. You'd actually be better served
being anti-Governator, or anti-Giulliani, or maybe anti-Rice. I don't know
who the Republicans have that could beat Clinton, but she doesn't agree with
you about Iraq anyway. I think it'd be a hoot to see a Clinton vs. Rice
race, but not having previously run for elective office would be a big
disadvantage for Rice. Maybe she could handle it though.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 18:20:58
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...
> Actually the suicide rate in Scandinavia is very high, but that may or may
> not be due to socialism. (It's probably a combination of unemployment and
> the weather.) They have a high unemployment rate, though. The best thing
> they have going for them, at least until recently, was *lack* of diversity.
> They were extremely homogeneous societies. That has been changing a lot,
> with the influx of people abandoning the Ummah, and it is creating serious
> tensions. Again, I think the answer for Europe is probably to improve
> conditions in the Ummah so that people aren't so anxious to emigrate....

Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
terrible, huh?

[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:26:29
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Actually the suicide rate in Scandinavia is very high, but that may or
may
> > not be due to socialism. (It's probably a combination of unemployment
and
> > the weather.) They have a high unemployment rate, though. The best
thing
> > they have going for them, at least until recently, was *lack* of
diversity.
> > They were extremely homogeneous societies. That has been changing a
lot,
> > with the influx of people abandoning the Ummah, and it is creating
serious
> > tensions. Again, I think the answer for Europe is probably to improve
> > conditions in the Ummah so that people aren't so anxious to emigrate....
>
> Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
> incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
> not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
> terrible, huh?
>
> [1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
> mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth

You forgot the fact that automobiles are very expensive in that region which
gives people little choice but to ride a bicycle. Especially in Norway and
Finland. As far as the "better discretionary income for the unemployed" that
is quickly catching up to them with massive government spending and debt.

However they do make excellent recumbents, I never understood why they seem
to have a lock on low-racer production

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:34:42
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...
>>>Actually the suicide rate in Scandinavia is very high, but that may or
>
> may
>
>>>not be due to socialism. (It's probably a combination of unemployment
>
> and
>
>>>the weather.) They have a high unemployment rate, though. The best
>
> thing
>
>>>they have going for them, at least until recently, was *lack* of
>
> diversity.
>
>>>They were extremely homogeneous societies. That has been changing a
>
> lot,
>
>>>with the influx of people abandoning the Ummah, and it is creating
>
> serious
>
>>>tensions. Again, I think the answer for Europe is probably to improve
>>>conditions in the Ummah so that people aren't so anxious to emigrate....
>>
>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
>>incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
>>not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
>>terrible, huh?
>>
>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
>>mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>
>
> You forgot the fact that automobiles are very expensive in that region which
> gives people little choice but to ride a bicycle. Especially in Norway and
> Finland. As far as the "better discretionary income for the unemployed" that
> is quickly catching up to them with massive government spending and debt.
>
> However they do make excellent recumbents, I never understood why they seem
> to have a lock on low-racer production

I hear there is a really fast carbon fiber composite splitter-plate
lowracer made in Poland by a guy named Kamil. ;)

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:57:43
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a1p5F4dqk6uU4@individual.net...
> >
> > However they do make excellent recumbents, I never understood why they
seem
> > to have a lock on low-racer production
>
> I hear there is a really fast carbon fiber composite splitter-plate
> lowracer made in Poland by a guy named Kamil. ;)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

Just once I'd love to see one recumbent manufacturer in the US make a decent
lowracer, I'm getting tired of the 2 month wait for parts from Holland :)

Date: 25 Feb 2005 18:43:45
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>
>
> Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary incomes
> [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US, not to
> mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty terrible, huh?
>
> [1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical mass
> transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>

It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to provide
this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if everybody is happy
then it's fine with me.

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:28:02
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>
>>
>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary incomes
>>[1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US, not to
>>mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty terrible, huh?
>>
>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical mass
>>transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>
>
>
> It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to provide
> this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if everybody is happy
> then it's fine with me.

Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?

They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.

Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:49:25
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>
> Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
> crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?

If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
has continued to climb not fall

> They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
> two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.

They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
regardless of their personal income

>
> Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.

You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as if
they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now considered
wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
for what they have.

It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:56:21
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>> Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>> crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>
> If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
> improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
> has continued to climb not fall

That's a bit too glib. Besides, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a
forgiving society, that doesn't punish you for every mistake you make. That
puts a hard edge on the culture, and leads to a rise in crime. (If you can't
make it by hook, you'll try crook, especially if you have a family and
there are no safety nets.)

But over the long haul, and with help, yeah... upgrading can work.

>
>> They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>> two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>
> They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
> regardless of their personal income
>
>>
>> Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>
> You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
> if
> they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
> considered
> wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
> for what they have.
>
> It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom

I've given up on it, myself. But there are some pretty harsh edges in this
economy... and I'll bet you aren't without a few wounds yourself. We all
know the score. Things are getting better though, in spite of the class
warfare stuff that Tom and his pals believe in. In some sense, that's
exactly why the Republican Party is now the majority political party.
>
>

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:13:01
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:FYVTd.30936$uc.22574@trnddc01...
>
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> >
> > It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>
> I've given up on it, myself. But there are some pretty harsh edges in
this
> economy... and I'll bet you aren't without a few wounds yourself.

Yup, while I can't claim I'm wealthy I can say I came from poverty

> We all
> know the score. Things are getting better though, in spite of the class
> warfare stuff that Tom and his pals believe in. In some sense, that's
> exactly why the Republican Party is now the majority political party.

Either that or some people just feel more comfortable being miserable, I
know many like that

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:14:56
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>
>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>has continued to climb not fall
>
>
> That's a bit too glib. Besides, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a
> forgiving society, that doesn't punish you for every mistake you make. That
> puts a hard edge on the culture, and leads to a rise in crime. (If you can't
> make it by hook, you'll try crook, especially if you have a family and
> there are no safety nets.)

People should be severely punished for their mistakes, otherwise they
will never learn from them.

Who cares about families? Adult should take care of themselves, and as
for the children, they are obviously of inferior genetic stock if their
parents are unsuccessful, so their suffering does not matter.

The above is not true for the rich, since they have proved their greater
inherent worth through their accumulation of wealth.

This about sums up the social philosophy of right wing parties in all
countries at all times. Anyone who can not see that needs to open their
eyes to reality.

> But over the long haul, and with help, yeah... upgrading can work.
>
>
>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>
>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>regardless of their personal income
>>
>>
>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>
>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>if
>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>considered
>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
>>for what they have.
>>
>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>
>
> I've given up on it, myself. But there are some pretty harsh edges in this
> economy... and I'll bet you aren't without a few wounds yourself. We all
> know the score. Things are getting better though, in spite of the class
> warfare stuff that Tom and his pals believe in. In some sense, that's
> exactly why the Republican Party is now the majority political party.

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Get real.

The vast majority of voters have no clue - the candidates with the best
keting plan and/or largest campaign fund are those that win
elections. Duh!

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 16:56:35
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38beahF5lajbpU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>
>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>
>>
>> That's a bit too glib. Besides, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have
>> a forgiving society, that doesn't punish you for every mistake you make.
>> That puts a hard edge on the culture, and leads to a rise in crime. (If
>> you can't make it by hook, you'll try crook, especially if you have a
>> family and there are no safety nets.)
>
> People should be severely punished for their mistakes, otherwise they will
> never learn from them.
>
> Who cares about families? Adult should take care of themselves, and as for
> the children, they are obviously of inferior genetic stock if their
> parents are unsuccessful, so their suffering does not matter.
>
> The above is not true for the rich, since they have proved their greater
> inherent worth through their accumulation of wealth.
>
> This about sums up the social philosophy of right wing parties in all
> countries at all times. Anyone who can not see that needs to open their
> eyes to reality.

You can believe what you like, but it's precisely the refusal to change such
"class-warfare" explanations of partisanship that has turned the Democrats
into a permanent minority party. I could show you loads of examples as to
why such leftwing bigotry isn't true, but you'd ignore them.
>
>> But over the long haul, and with help, yeah... upgrading can work.
>>
>>
>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>
>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>
>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>>if
>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>considered
>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>worked
>>>for what they have.
>>>
>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>
>>
>> I've given up on it, myself. But there are some pretty harsh edges in
>> this economy... and I'll bet you aren't without a few wounds yourself.
>> We all know the score. Things are getting better though, in spite of the
>> class warfare stuff that Tom and his pals believe in. In some sense,
>> that's exactly why the Republican Party is now the majority political
>> party.
>
> Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Get real.
>
> The vast majority of voters have no clue - the candidates with the best
> keting plan and/or largest campaign fund are those that win elections.
> Duh!

And this disrespect for voters helps you fashion your message, how?

Well, you've got your mean Dean in the chair. We'll see how that works out.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 26 Feb 2005 11:15:09
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38beahF5lajbpU1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>
>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a bit too glib. Besides, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have
>>>a forgiving society, that doesn't punish you for every mistake you make.
>>>That puts a hard edge on the culture, and leads to a rise in crime. (If
>>>you can't make it by hook, you'll try crook, especially if you have a
>>>family and there are no safety nets.)
>>
>>People should be severely punished for their mistakes, otherwise they will
>>never learn from them.
>>
>>Who cares about families? Adult should take care of themselves, and as for
>>the children, they are obviously of inferior genetic stock if their
>>parents are unsuccessful, so their suffering does not matter.
>>
>>The above is not true for the rich, since they have proved their greater
>>inherent worth through their accumulation of wealth.
>>
>>This about sums up the social philosophy of right wing parties in all
>>countries at all times. Anyone who can not see that needs to open their
>>eyes to reality.
>
>
> You can believe what you like, but it's precisely the refusal to change such
> "class-warfare" explanations of partisanship that has turned the Democrats
> into a permanent minority party. I could show you loads of examples as to
> why such leftwing bigotry isn't true, but you'd ignore them.

Oh, more male bovine excrement. The Democrats lose because they have
sold out and become "Republican Lite", while the Republicans sell their
lies with clever keting while moving towards feudalism.

>>>But over the long haul, and with help, yeah... upgrading can work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>
>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>
>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>>>if
>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>>considered
>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>>worked
>>>>for what they have.
>>>>
>>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>I've given up on it, myself. But there are some pretty harsh edges in
>>>this economy... and I'll bet you aren't without a few wounds yourself.
>>>We all know the score. Things are getting better though, in spite of the
>>>class warfare stuff that Tom and his pals believe in. In some sense,
>>>that's exactly why the Republican Party is now the majority political
>>>party.
>>
>>Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Get real.
>>
>>The vast majority of voters have no clue - the candidates with the best
>>keting plan and/or largest campaign fund are those that win elections.
>>Duh!
>
>
> And this disrespect for voters helps you fashion your message, how?

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I would go for a bike
ride, but I am still coughing up odd colored mucus, so I will amuse my
self by pissing off right wing people that think they are so superior
than can lecture us and then believe that we should be grateful for
their condescending to educate us.

> Well, you've got your mean Dean in the chair. We'll see how that works out.

Howard Dean is a conservative.

--
Tom Sherman - Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:48:08
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>
> > Well, you've got your mean Dean in the chair. We'll see how that works
out.
>
> Howard Dean is a conservative.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Pissing Contest Hell

Lol yes I could see now why you'd think that

Date: 26 Feb 2005 11:57:05
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...

> Howard Dean is a conservative.
>
> --

Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's passionate
nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal Church because they
refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put forward. That is all she
said. I would like to know the rest of the story. Like when does one lose
their religion over a bike path? What is the Episcopal Church's role in
approving bike paths in Vermont?

Since you seem to know a lot about Mr. Conservative who hates the Republican
party and every thing it stands for, I'm wondering what you know about the
bike path situation. I'm wondering if he now hates the Episcopal Church and
everything it stands for?

I have to kinda like Dean for not being the usual Dem phony and for his lack
of double speak. Plus his screams don't bother me all that much. It should
be interesting to see how it plays out for him, Hillary, and the others.

skip

Date: 27 Feb 2005 11:25:52
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:wdidnVhJXeD1Jb3fRVn-sA@giganews.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>
>> Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>
>> --
>
> Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's passionate
> nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal Church because
> they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put forward. That is
> all she said. I would like to know the rest of the story. Like when does
> one lose their religion over a bike path? What is the Episcopal Church's
> role in approving bike paths in Vermont?
>
> Since you seem to know a lot about Mr. Conservative who hates the
> Republican party and every thing it stands for, I'm wondering what you
> know about the bike path situation. I'm wondering if he now hates the
> Episcopal Church and everything it stands for?
>
> I have to kinda like Dean for not being the usual Dem phony and for his
> lack of double speak. Plus his screams don't bother me all that much. It
> should be interesting to see how it plays out for him, Hillary, and the
> others.
>

Of course Jonah Goldberg is an evil neocon (Jew), but he has a fairly good
article on "The Rise of the Bike-Path Left." (Class warfare, it's not.)

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg200502161204.asp

We all know, of course, that you're a wuss if you push for bike paths, a
concept that Jonah doesn't quite grasp.

Date: 26 Feb 2005 12:07:35
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>
>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>
> Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's passionate
> nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal Church because they
> refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put forward. That is all she
> said. I would like to know the rest of the story. Like when does one lose
> their religion over a bike path?...

Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
Krieg" to verify.

[1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:49:10
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
>
> Bike paths are a religion.

You have a point there :)

Date: 26 Feb 2005 12:20:17
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
> $kip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>
>> Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's passionate
>> nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal Church because
>> they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put forward. That is
>> all she said. I would like to know the rest of the story. Like when
>> does one lose their religion over a bike path?...
>
> Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
> Krieg" to verify.
>
> [1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".
>
> --
>

I can give you postive assurance that I will not be doing what you suggest.
Would you like to have another try?

skip

Date: 26 Feb 2005 12:28:31
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
>
>>$kip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>>
>>>Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's passionate
>>>nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal Church because
>>>they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put forward. That is
>>>all she said. I would like to know the rest of the story. Like when
>>>does one lose their religion over a bike path?...
>>
>>Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
>>Krieg" to verify.
>>
>>[1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".
>>
>>--
>>
>
>
> I can give you postive assurance that I will not be doing what you suggest.
> Would you like to have another try?

I see that is not your style. Do a search for "Mike Vandeman" instead. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 12:41:35
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bt61F5muidhU1@individual.net...
> skip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>$kip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>>>
>>>>Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's
>>>>passionate nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal
>>>>Church because they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put
>>>>forward. That is all she said. I would like to know the rest of the
>>>>story. Like when does one lose their religion over a bike path?...
>>>
>>>Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
>>>Krieg" to verify.
>>>
>>>[1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".
>>>
>>>--
>>>
>>
>>
>> I can give you postive assurance that I will not be doing what you
>> suggest. Would you like to have another try?
>
> I see that is not your style. Do a search for "Mike Vandeman" instead. ;)
>
> --

I can give you double postive assurance I won't be googling Vandeman.

I accept the reality that you will not answer the question. The
Krieg/Vandeman prattle is your way of taking the fifth.

skip

Date: 26 Feb 2005 13:04:47
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bt61F5muidhU1@individual.net...
>
>>skip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>$kip wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>>>>
>>>>>Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's
>>>>>passionate nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal
>>>>>Church because they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put
>>>>>forward. That is all she said. I would like to know the rest of the
>>>>>story. Like when does one lose their religion over a bike path?...
>>>>
>>>>Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
>>>>Krieg" to verify.
>>>>
>>>>[1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I can give you postive assurance that I will not be doing what you
>>>suggest. Would you like to have another try?
>>
>>I see that is not your style. Do a search for "Mike Vandeman" instead. ;)
>>
>>--
>
>
> I can give you double postive assurance I won't be googling Vandeman.
>
> I accept the reality that you will not answer the question. The
> Krieg/Vandeman prattle is your way of taking the fifth.

Skip,
Leaving a church is not the same as changing religious belief - your
question is based on an assumption that is not true and therefore no
reasonable answer is possible.

In many ways the organized church has been the worst possible thing that
could happen to Christianity (and the same could be said about other
religions). In most cases, the religious "authorities" put personal
and/or group aims and beliefs ahead of the doctrine established by the
religion's founder and/or prophet(s).

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 14:34:55
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bva5F5m42k1U1@individual.net...
> skip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38bt61F5muidhU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38bruoF5h3c7lU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>$kip wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:38bosiF5ng4l8U1@individual.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Howard Dean is a conservative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Whatever. One of our local columnist wrote a column on Dean's
>>>>>>passionate nature. To illustrate she said Dean left the Episcopal
>>>>>>Church because they refused to approve a bike path proposal he had put
>>>>>>forward. That is all she said. I would like to know the rest of the
>>>>>>story. Like when does one lose their religion over a bike path?...
>>>>>
>>>>>Bike paths are a religion. Do a "Gurgle Gropes" [1] search for "tin
>>>>>Krieg" to verify.
>>>>>
>>>>>[1] As G. Daniels would write "Google Groups".
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I can give you postive assurance that I will not be doing what you
>>>>suggest. Would you like to have another try?
>>>
>>>I see that is not your style. Do a search for "Mike Vandeman" instead. ;)
>>>
>>>--
>>
>>
>> I can give you double postive assurance I won't be googling Vandeman.
>>
>> I accept the reality that you will not answer the question. The
>> Krieg/Vandeman prattle is your way of taking the fifth.
>
> Skip,
> Leaving a church is not the same as changing religious belief - your
> question is based on an assumption that is not true and therefore no
> reasonable answer is possible.
>
> In many ways the organized church has been the worst possible thing that
> could happen to Christianity (and the same could be said about other
> religions). In most cases, the religious "authorities" put personal and/or
> group aims and beliefs ahead of the doctrine established by the religion's
> founder and/or prophet(s).
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

To my way of thinking, leaving the Espiscopal church, or the Methodist
church, or the Catholic church, etc., etc., is generally preceded by a
change in belief otherwise you would just go on down the street to the next
Espiscopal church, etc. and give them a try.

I'm not to hot to trot on the organized part of religion myself so your
point on that is taken.

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:36:41
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>> Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>> crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>
> If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
> improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
> has continued to climb not fall
>
>> They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>> two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>
> They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
> regardless of their personal income
>
>>
>> Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>
> You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
> if
> they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
> considered
> wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
> for what they have.
>
> It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>
>
Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a year.
In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered all the Big
Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to exchange the
wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably impressed by the way
this guy ran the job.

Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me he
had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my future
business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future work. He
asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He then asked for
the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work done. I didn't know
anyone at the time, so he left his new business card and said we would stay
in touch.

The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the foggiest
notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone working towards
ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.

$kip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:51:38
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>
>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>has continued to climb not fall
>>
>>
>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>
>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>regardless of their personal income
>>
>>
>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>
>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>if
>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>considered
>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
>>for what they have.
>>
>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>
>>
>
> Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
> subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
> leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a year.
> In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered all the Big
> Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to exchange the
> wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably impressed by the way
> this guy ran the job.
>
> Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me he
> had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my future
> business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future work. He
> asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He then asked for
> the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work done. I didn't know
> anyone at the time, so he left his new business card and said we would stay
> in touch.
>
> The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the foggiest
> notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone working towards
> ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.

Why are you dealing with people who business is selling stolen goods?

I could give a more serious reply on how the US system had made the
wrong choice by equating material possessions with quality of life, but
it would be like casting pearls before swine, I am afraid.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 23:12:59
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38adadF5l5b09U1@individual.net...
> $kip wrote:
>
>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>
>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>>
>>>
>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>
>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>
>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>>if
>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>considered
>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>worked
>>>for what they have.
>>>
>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
>> subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
>> leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a
>> year. In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered
>> all the Big Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to
>> exchange the wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably
>> impressed by the way this guy ran the job.
>>
>> Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me he
>> had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my future
>> business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future work.
>> He asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He then
>> asked for the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work done. I
>> didn't know anyone at the time, so he left his new business card and said
>> we would stay in touch.
>>
>> The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the
>> foggiest notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone
>> working towards ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.
>
> Why are you dealing with people who business is selling stolen goods?
>

No. We were just enjoying a bit of good natured sword play.

> I could give a more serious reply on how the US system had made the wrong
> choice by equating material possessions with quality of life, but it would
> be like casting pearls before swine, I am afraid.
>
> --

If you are finding your four expensive recumbents are having a negative
effect on your quality of life, I would be willing to relieve you of the
burden of their possession.

$kip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 23:50:48
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38adadF5l5b09U1@individual.net...
>
>>$kip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>
>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
>>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>
>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>
>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as
>>>>if
>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>>considered
>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>>worked
>>>>for what they have.
>>>>
>>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
>>>subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
>>>leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a
>>>year. In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered
>>>all the Big Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to
>>>exchange the wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably
>>>impressed by the way this guy ran the job.
>>>
>>>Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me he
>>>had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my future
>>>business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future work.
>>>He asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He then
>>>asked for the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work done. I
>>>didn't know anyone at the time, so he left his new business card and said
>>>we would stay in touch.
>>>
>>>The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the
>>>foggiest notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone
>>>working towards ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.
>>
>>Why are you dealing with people who business is selling stolen goods?
>>
>
>
> No. We were just enjoying a bit of good natured sword play.
>
>
>
>
>>I could give a more serious reply on how the US system had made the wrong
>>choice by equating material possessions with quality of life, but it would
>>be like casting pearls before swine, I am afraid.
>>
>>--
>
>
>
> If you are finding your four expensive recumbents are having a negative
> effect on your quality of life, I would be willing to relieve you of the
> burden of their possession.

I don't own a big house, a motor vehicle less than 10 years old, my TV
is so old that it has 300 ohm terminals (no 75 ohm coaxial input, and
not it is not cable ready), I have no expensive clothes, no DVD player,
no microwave oven, almost no furniture, I last paid for going to a movie
over 5 years ago, I almost never eat at restaurants, I have never taken
a formal vacation trip, and am conserving periods by making this one
long sentence; in fact some of my cow-orkers (sic) spend more eating out
a year than I paid for all my bikes and trike; and I could add to this
list if I thought about it some more.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:00:46
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38agpcF5ls3f8U1@individual.net...
> $kip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38adadF5l5b09U1@individual.net...
>>
>>>$kip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
>>>>>to
>>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
>>>>>income
>>>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>>
>>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
>>>>>as if
>>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>>>considered
>>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>>>worked
>>>>>for what they have.
>>>>>
>>>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
>>>>subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
>>>>leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a
>>>>year. In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered
>>>>all the Big Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to
>>>>exchange the wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably
>>>>impressed by the way this guy ran the job.
>>>>
>>>>Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me
>>>>he had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my
>>>>future business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future
>>>>work. He asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He
>>>>then asked for the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work
>>>>done. I didn't know anyone at the time, so he left his new business
>>>>card and said we would stay in touch.
>>>>
>>>>The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the
>>>>foggiest notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone
>>>>working towards ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.
>>>
>>>Why are you dealing with people who business is selling stolen goods?
>>>
>>
>>
>> No. We were just enjoying a bit of good natured sword play.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I could give a more serious reply on how the US system had made the wrong
>>>choice by equating material possessions with quality of life, but it
>>>would be like casting pearls before swine, I am afraid.
>>>
>>>--
>>
>>
>>
>> If you are finding your four expensive recumbents are having a negative
>> effect on your quality of life, I would be willing to relieve you of the
>> burden of their possession.
>
> I don't own a big house, a motor vehicle less than 10 years old, my TV is
> so old that it has 300 ohm terminals (no 75 ohm coaxial input, and not it
> is not cable ready), I have no expensive clothes, no DVD player, no
> microwave oven, almost no furniture, I last paid for going to a movie over
> 5 years ago, I almost never eat at restaurants, I have never taken a
> formal vacation trip, and am conserving periods by making this one long
> sentence; in fact some of my cow-orkers (sic) spend more eating out a year
> than I paid for all my bikes and trike; and I could add to this list if I
> thought about it some more.
>
> --
>
So I presume the above is an adequate rationalization for you to have more
very expensive recumbent bicycles than you need and still not have the
quality of life issues you say others would have with similar material
possessions.

I understand Ed Dolan's explanation of his voluntary poverty, but I clueless
about yours. Ed said he had a greater interest in listening to Beethoven
than he had in making money and was willing to make the necessary sacrifices
toward that end, but you, on the other hand, have been working as a civil
engineer with a professional engineering company since graduating from
college several years ago. With your education and your intellect you
should be in the upper percentile of wage earners in your age group by now.

It's surely none of my business, but I wonder if you are giving the money
you earn to to some foreign political operatives?

skip

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:54:34
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38agpcF5ls3f8U1@individual.net...
>
>>$kip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38adadF5l5b09U1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>$kip wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:UfKdnWvz3fYKbILfRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
>>>>>>income
>>>>>>has continued to climb not fall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
>>>>>>as if
>>>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>>>>considered
>>>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>>>>worked
>>>>>>for what they have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It must be painful to sit around feeling bitter all the time Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Six months ago I had some fencing work done by a Big Box Store who
>>>>>subcontracted the job to another smaller company. The installation crew
>>>>>leader for the subcontractor was Mexican, in the USA a little over a
>>>>>year. In about 15 minutes of arriving at the job site he had uncovered
>>>>>all the Big Box Store sales guy's mistakes and sent one of his guys to
>>>>>exchange the wrong parts and get the right ones. I was favorably
>>>>>impressed by the way this guy ran the job.
>>>>>
>>>>>Fast forward nine months. This guy stops by to see me again, tells me
>>>>>he had started his own fencing business, and would like to have my
>>>>>future business. I told him I would be glad to consider him for future
>>>>>work. He asked if he could use me as a reference and I said sure. He
>>>>>then asked for the names of anyone I knew likely to need fencing work
>>>>>done. I didn't know anyone at the time, so he left his new business
>>>>>card and said we would stay in touch.
>>>>>
>>>>>The point I'm trying to make is that Tom doesn't seem to have the
>>>>>foggiest notion of this kind of thing or any appreciation of someone
>>>>>working towards ownership. Clearly it's outside his mindset.
>>>>
>>>>Why are you dealing with people who business is selling stolen goods?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No. We were just enjoying a bit of good natured sword play.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I could give a more serious reply on how the US system had made the wrong
>>>>choice by equating material possessions with quality of life, but it
>>>>would be like casting pearls before swine, I am afraid.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>If you are finding your four expensive recumbents are having a negative
>>>effect on your quality of life, I would be willing to relieve you of the
>>>burden of their possession.
>>
>>I don't own a big house, a motor vehicle less than 10 years old, my TV is
>>so old that it has 300 ohm terminals (no 75 ohm coaxial input, and not it
>>is not cable ready), I have no expensive clothes, no DVD player, no
>>microwave oven, almost no furniture, I last paid for going to a movie over
>>5 years ago, I almost never eat at restaurants, I have never taken a
>>formal vacation trip, and am conserving periods by making this one long
>>sentence; in fact some of my cow-orkers (sic) spend more eating out a year
>>than I paid for all my bikes and trike; and I could add to this list if I
>>thought about it some more.
>>
>>--
>>
>
> So I presume the above is an adequate rationalization for you to have more
> very expensive recumbent bicycles than you need and still not have the
> quality of life issues you say others would have with similar material
> possessions.
>
> I understand Ed Dolan's explanation of his voluntary poverty, but I clueless
> about yours. Ed said he had a greater interest in listening to Beethoven
> than he had in making money and was willing to make the necessary sacrifices
> toward that end, but you, on the other hand, have been working as a civil
> engineer with a professional engineering company since graduating from
> college several years ago. With your education and your intellect you
> should be in the upper percentile of wage earners in your age group by now.

Hint number one: I made the mistake of trying to get medical help for
certain chronic conditions and ended up paying over $4,000 in uncovered
costs in less than a year. My insurance "provider" (I use the term
loosely") had so many exemptions and deductibles that they ended up
paying about 20% of what I was billed. [1] Ask me why I hate the
for-profit medical industry [2].

Hint number two: Civil engineers in mid-sized cites in the US with 5
years of experience and a graduate degree typically have salaries of
less than $45,000/year. With the hours expected, this can easily work
out to less than $20/hour.

Hint number three: Not having affluent parents to pick up the bill, I
had to borrow a substantial amount of money for higher education. I am
well on my way to paying off these loans 3 to 4 years ahead of schedule.

As for the Earth Cycles, I was not looking to buy a Sunset (I had just
sold the Wishbone RT to reduce the number of bicycles) when someone made
the point of personally contacting me when a certain red Sunset came up
for sale. I had no choice but to provide a home for an orphan.

I was not looking to buy a Dragonflyer, but someone chose the "buy it
now" option on an eBay auction [3], in the belief that it would be an
appropriate trike for me. Again, I had no choice but to adopt another
needy orphan.

[1] Note that over 50% of personal bankruptcies in the US are from
medical expenses, and most of these people were employed with "health
insurance".
[2] No, not the individual doctors, nurses, etc. who earn their
financial compensation, but the corporate entities.
[3] Much to the dismay of Larry Varney, as was documented on this very
Usenet group.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:45:49
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bgksF5n4qgnU1@individual.net...
>
> Hint number one: I made the mistake of trying to get medical help for
> certain chronic conditions and ended up paying over $4,000 in uncovered
> costs in less than a year. My insurance "provider" (I use the term
> loosely") had so many exemptions and deductibles that they ended up
> paying about 20% of what I was billed. [1] Ask me why I hate the
> for-profit medical industry [2].

From what I've seen you'd hate a government sponsored medical industry even
more

> Hint number two: Civil engineers in mid-sized cites in the US with 5
> years of experience and a graduate degree typically have salaries of
> less than $45,000/year. With the hours expected, this can easily work
> out to less than $20/hour.

Then find another profession, I did

> Hint number three: Not having affluent parents to pick up the bill, I
> had to borrow a substantial amount of money for higher education. I am
> well on my way to paying off these loans 3 to 4 years ahead of schedule.

So did I, so did my brother who now makes well over $200,000 a year at
T-Mobile (no I don't make anything close to that). Took me 6 years to pay
off school loans, thats part of the process

I'm noticing a pattern here

1. You don't seem to do much unless someone else offers assistance
2. You seem think you are stuck in your profession and don't think you can
ever get out
3. You seem to like blaming others for your problems instead of yourself
4. There is no #4

Without actually knowing you I could of course be wrong however I've yet to
see you say something positive on something other than recumbents.

> As for the Earth Cycles, I was not looking to buy a Sunset (I had just
> sold the Wishbone RT to reduce the number of bicycles) when someone made
> the point of personally contacting me when a certain red Sunset came up
> for sale. I had no choice but to provide a home for an orphan.

You sold a Wishbone RT??? (shudder)

begin 666 Reynolds Weld Lab---Home of the T-Bone Recumbent.URL
M6TEN=&5R;F5T4VAO<G1C=71=#0I54DP]:'1T<#HO+W=W=RYR97EN;VQD<W=E
F;&1L86)S+F-O;2]0:6-T=7)E<R]0:6-S-"]0:6-S-"YH=&T-"@``
`
end

Date: 26 Feb 2005 18:24:12
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bgksF5n4qgnU1@individual.net...
>
>>Hint number one: I made the mistake of trying to get medical help for
>>certain chronic conditions and ended up paying over $4,000 in uncovered
>>costs in less than a year. My insurance "provider" (I use the term
>>loosely") had so many exemptions and deductibles that they ended up
>>paying about 20% of what I was billed. [1] Ask me why I hate the
>>for-profit medical industry [2].
>
>
> From what I've seen you'd hate a government sponsored medical industry even
> more

I have thought about moving to Canada just for the single-payer health
care. The cost to health care outcome ratio in the US is ridiculously
high compared to other industrial nations. Hell, even Mr. Ed agreed with
me on this issue.

>>Hint number two: Civil engineers in mid-sized cites in the US with 5
>>years of experience and a graduate degree typically have salaries of
>>less than $45,000/year. With the hours expected, this can easily work
>>out to less than $20/hour.
>
>
> Then find another profession, I did

The opportunities were much better when I started school. The decision
by the federal government to let the infrastructure deteriorate has been
bad for the profession (one reason why I would never vote for Shrub).

I was considering selling security systems, but my Usenet experience
indicates all those people are nuts. ;)

>>Hint number three: Not having affluent parents to pick up the bill, I
>>had to borrow a substantial amount of money for higher education. I am
>>well on my way to paying off these loans 3 to 4 years ahead of schedule.
>
>
> So did I, so did my brother who now makes well over $200,000 a year at
> T-Mobile (no I don't make anything close to that). Took me 6 years to pay
> off school loans, thats part of the process

Does he have to wear one of those awful pink jerseys [1]? That should be
worth more than $200,000/year. I mean, look at what Ulrich gets paid.

> I'm noticing a pattern here
>
> 1. You don't seem to do much unless someone else offers assistance
> 2. You seem think you are stuck in your profession and don't think you can
> ever get out
> 3. You seem to like blaming others for your problems instead of yourself
> 4. There is no #4

If I were healthy, things might be different. This is a horrible country
compared to other industrialized countries for anyone with any type of
medical disability. The message from US society can be summed up with
two words: "fuck off".

By the way, I did get a graduate degree from the top ranked program in
the country without any special assistance, unlike some people who have
had their �success� handed to them.

> Without actually knowing you I could of course be wrong however I've yet to
> see you say something positive on something other than recumbents.
>
>
>>As for the Earth Cycles, I was not looking to buy a Sunset (I had just
>>sold the Wishbone RT to reduce the number of bicycles) when someone made
>>the point of personally contacting me when a certain red Sunset came up
>>for sale. I had no choice but to provide a home for an orphan.
>
>
> You sold a Wishbone RT??? (shudder)

Well, someone was very persistent that I sell the bike after letting him
have a test ride. The current owner has put much effort into improving
the bike since his purchase (and yes, I made him fully aware of all of
the shortcomings before the sale).

The bike was basically a prototype and very poorly set-up and quite
crude in many respects. Chain management was very poor and getting
proper gearing for road use would have required either a Rohloff, a
Schlumpf or welding on new idler mounts or fabricating mounting adapters.

I found the seat comfort ginal, and the ride quality was poor enough
to cause blurred vision on rough roads - if I still had the bike, it
would have a rear Pantour suspension hub (not available at the time I
owned the bike).

The USS steering bothered me in that there was no good place to mount a
mirror, so I would never have been comfortable riding the bike in
traffic (unlike the Sunset which was perfectly fine on the North Shore
Century and north Chicago neighborhoods. Low speed handling was also
difficult due to crank foot overlap and even a little crank/tire overlap.

In addition, the nickel plating was showing rust in many places, making
the long-term durability questionable. Reportedly, Reynolds no longer
uses nickel plating due to this problem. It is also reported that
current Reynolds bikes are much improved in refinement, and the use of
M5 seats is also likely of benefit.

I found the Sunset to have roughly comparable performance to the
Wishbone, much better seat and ride comfort, superior handling, better
chain management and shifting, much more appropriate low gearing with
only a slightly lower top gear, and a lot more enjoyable to ride overall.

[1] See
<http://www.t-mobile-team.com/cms/tmoteam/de/archiv/fotogalerie/property=blobBigBinary/id=11870.jpg >.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 18:45:06
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38ci0sF5mo9ioU1@individual.net...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> > news:38bgksF5n4qgnU1@individual.net...
> >
> >>Hint number one: I made the mistake of trying to get medical help for
> >>certain chronic conditions and ended up paying over $4,000 in uncovered
> >>costs in less than a year. My insurance "provider" (I use the term
> >>loosely") had so many exemptions and deductibles that they ended up
> >>paying about 20% of what I was billed. [1] Ask me why I hate the
> >>for-profit medical industry [2].
> >
> >
> > From what I've seen you'd hate a government sponsored medical industry
even
> > more
>
> I have thought about moving to Canada just for the single-payer health
> care. The cost to health care outcome ratio in the US is ridiculously
> high compared to other industrial nations. Hell, even Mr. Ed agreed with
> me on this issue.

That is assuming you can get the treatment you want from Canada, in many
cases they ration it due to the costs involved.

And I don't think having Mr Ed agreeing with you would be considered an
advantage :)

> >>Hint number two: Civil engineers in mid-sized cites in the US with 5
> >>years of experience and a graduate degree typically have salaries of
> >>less than $45,000/year. With the hours expected, this can easily work
> >>out to less than $20/hour.
> >
> >
> > Then find another profession, I did
>
> The opportunities were much better when I started school. The decision
> by the federal government to let the infrastructure deteriorate has been
> bad for the profession (one reason why I would never vote for Shrub).

That happens in any trade, I went to school for electronics because of the
"wonderful opportunities available", funny thing was the job I was able to
get was better paid than everyone else in my class while using almost none
of what was taught me

It's not what you learn its what you do with the knowledge

> I was considering selling security systems, but my Usenet experience
> indicates all those people are nuts. ;)

Sounds like you listened to the wrong people :)

> >>Hint number three: Not having affluent parents to pick up the bill, I
> >>had to borrow a substantial amount of money for higher education. I am
> >>well on my way to paying off these loans 3 to 4 years ahead of schedule.
> >
> >
> > So did I, so did my brother who now makes well over $200,000 a year at
> > T-Mobile (no I don't make anything close to that). Took me 6 years to
pay
> > off school loans, thats part of the process
>
> Does he have to wear one of those awful pink jerseys [1]? That should be
> worth more than $200,000/year. I mean, look at what Ulrich gets paid.

No but his department (engineering) was somehow over the ladies cycle team
side, forgot what that was tho

> > I'm noticing a pattern here
> >
> > 1. You don't seem to do much unless someone else offers assistance
> > 2. You seem think you are stuck in your profession and don't think you
can
> > ever get out
> > 3. You seem to like blaming others for your problems instead of yourself
> > 4. There is no #4
>
> If I were healthy, things might be different. This is a horrible country
> compared to other industrialized countries for anyone with any type of
> medical disability. The message from US society can be summed up with
> two words: "fuck off".

I know many people with disabilities and remember I was once homeless, with
all the available government agencies with all the programs available the
only reason someone isn't helped is because they do not actively pursue what
they can get

> By the way, I did get a graduate degree from the top ranked program in
> the country without any special assistance, unlike some people who have
> had their �success� handed to them.

Good for you, why you seem to be bothered by "them" is beyond me

> > You sold a Wishbone RT??? (shudder)
>
> Well, someone was very persistent that I sell the bike after letting him
> have a test ride. The current owner has put much effort into improving
> the bike since his purchase (and yes, I made him fully aware of all of
> the shortcomings before the sale).

I once looked at that bike when I was looking for a replacement for the
Vision

> The bike was basically a prototype and very poorly set-up and quite
> crude in many respects. Chain management was very poor and getting
> proper gearing for road use would have required either a Rohloff, a
> Schlumpf or welding on new idler mounts or fabricating mounting adapters.

I have read Reynolds bikes can be that way

> I found the seat comfort ginal, and the ride quality was poor enough
> to cause blurred vision on rough roads - if I still had the bike, it
> would have a rear Pantour suspension hub (not available at the time I
> owned the bike).

I was never one for Pantour, if I want suspension I'd rather buy a bike that
came with it

> The USS steering bothered me in that there was no good place to mount a
> mirror, so I would never have been comfortable riding the bike in
> traffic (unlike the Sunset which was perfectly fine on the North Shore
> Century and north Chicago neighborhoods. Low speed handling was also
> difficult due to crank foot overlap and even a little crank/tire overlap.

Interesting, I wonder how improved the later Reynolds bikes are

I too had problems mounting mirrors on the USS Vision, ended up never doing
it, wouldn't be caught dead without them on my Baron tho

Date: 26 Feb 2005 19:16:46
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> ...
>>I have thought about moving to Canada just for the single-payer health
>>care. The cost to health care outcome ratio in the US is ridiculously
>>high compared to other industrial nations. Hell, even Mr. Ed agreed with
>>me on this issue.
>
>
> That is assuming you can get the treatment you want from Canada, in many
> cases they ration it due to the costs involved.

Canadians spend half per capita compared to the US on health care. And
truly urgent care is not denied, contrary to the myths spread by those
with a vested interest in for profit healthcare.

Besides, I know I can not afford to get the treatment I need here, so
there is nothing to lose in that respect.

> And I don't think having Mr Ed agreeing with you would be considered an
> advantage :)
>
>
>>>>Hint number two: Civil engineers in mid-sized cites in the US with 5
>>>>years of experience and a graduate degree typically have salaries of
>>>>less than $45,000/year. With the hours expected, this can easily work
>>>>out to less than $20/hour.
>>>
>>>
>>>Then find another profession, I did
>>
>>The opportunities were much better when I started school. The decision
>>by the federal government to let the infrastructure deteriorate has been
>>bad for the profession (one reason why I would never vote for Shrub).
>
>
> That happens in any trade, I went to school for electronics because of the
> "wonderful opportunities available", funny thing was the job I was able to
> get was better paid than everyone else in my class while using almost none
> of what was taught me
>
> It's not what you learn its what you do with the knowledge...

The real way to advance in the US is too falsely pretend to be friends
with people you do not care about that can get you advanced. Hard work
and competence are not rewarded.

However, I would rather live with knowing I was being honest, not to
mention that I am no good at playing con games.

>>>I'm noticing a pattern here
>>>
>>>1. You don't seem to do much unless someone else offers assistance
>>>2. You seem think you are stuck in your profession and don't think you
>
> can
>
>>>ever get out
>>>3. You seem to like blaming others for your problems instead of yourself
>>>4. There is no #4
>>
>>If I were healthy, things might be different. This is a horrible country
>>compared to other industrialized countries for anyone with any type of
>>medical disability. The message from US society can be summed up with
>>two words: "fuck off".
>
>
> I know many people with disabilities and remember I was once homeless, with
> all the available government agencies with all the programs available the
> only reason someone isn't helped is because they do not actively pursue what
> they can get

If you haven't noticed, Bush and the Republican Congress have greatly
cut back on all those programs, and have proposed even greater cuts for
future budgets. And no, private charities are not going pick up the
slack. The general attitude among the ignorant majority is just "such it
up" unless it is a blatantly visible physical problem. The belief that
the US is one of the more caring societies is just another self-delusion
that makes people feel better about themselves.

>>By the way, I did get a graduate degree from the top ranked program in
>>the country without any special assistance, unlike some people who have
>>had their ?uccess?handed to them.
>
>
> Good for you, why you seem to be bothered by "them" is beyond me

The myth is perpetuated that the rich are somehow morally better (God
rewards them for the character, etc.) as a justification for unjust
rewards. In most cases they either take an undue share of the profits of
business (corporate executives) or profit off the labor of others
because they were fortunate enough to be given access to capital at one
time (the financial industry), or are otherwise overcompensated for
their contribution to society. Only a few (e.g. Warren Buffet)
acknowledge that a great many people contributed to their wealth, and
that they own society a lot in return (including a reasonable
inheritance tax).

>>>You sold a Wishbone RT??? (shudder)
>>
>>Well, someone was very persistent that I sell the bike after letting him
>>have a test ride. The current owner has put much effort into improving
>>the bike since his purchase (and yes, I made him fully aware of all of
>>the shortcomings before the sale).
>
>
> I once looked at that bike when I was looking for a replacement for the
> Vision

That particular bike (Bryan Ball's BROL test bike)?

>>The bike was basically a prototype and very poorly set-up and quite
>>crude in many respects. Chain management was very poor and getting
>>proper gearing for road use would have required either a Rohloff, a
>>Schlumpf or welding on new idler mounts or fabricating mounting adapters.
>
>
> I have read Reynolds bikes can be that way
>
>
>>I found the seat comfort ginal, and the ride quality was poor enough
>>to cause blurred vision on rough roads - if I still had the bike, it
>>would have a rear Pantour suspension hub (not available at the time I
>>owned the bike).
>
>
> I was never one for Pantour, if I want suspension I'd rather buy a bike that
> came with it

If you had ridden this particular bike down a bumpy road at high speed
you would see through your blurry vision the need. Even with 47-406 Comp
Pool tires inflated to 85 psi, the ride was miserable over crack control
joints.

>>The USS steering bothered me in that there was no good place to mount a
>>mirror, so I would never have been comfortable riding the bike in
>>traffic (unlike the Sunset which was perfectly fine on the North Shore
>>Century and north Chicago neighborhoods. Low speed handling was also
>>difficult due to crank foot overlap and even a little crank/tire overlap.
>
>
> Interesting, I wonder how improved the later Reynolds bikes are
>
> I too had problems mounting mirrors on the USS Vision, ended up never doing
> it, wouldn't be caught dead without them on my Baron tho

You might well end up dead if you rode on multi-lane streets in urban
traffic without a mirror on a Baron. Being that reclined makes it almost
impossible to check over the shoulder for traffic before changing lanes
(e.g. when making a left turn from a multi-lane street).

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 23:36:27
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38cl3fF5l1q0qU1@individual.net...
>
> You might well end up dead if you rode on multi-lane streets in urban
> traffic without a mirror on a Baron. Being that reclined makes it almost
> impossible to check over the shoulder for traffic before changing lanes
> (e.g. when making a left turn from a multi-lane street).
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

Very true, bought some B&M's for the Baron immediately after I purchased it

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:21:03
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38agpcF5ls3f8U1@individual.net...

> I don't own a big house, a motor vehicle less than 10 years old, my TV
> is so old that it has 300 ohm terminals (no 75 ohm coaxial input, and
> not it is not cable ready), I have no expensive clothes, no DVD player,
> no microwave oven, almost no furniture, I last paid for going to a movie
> over 5 years ago, I almost never eat at restaurants, I have never taken
> a formal vacation trip, and am conserving periods by making this one
> long sentence; in fact some of my cow-orkers (sic) spend more eating out
> a year than I paid for all my bikes and trike; and I could add to this
> list if I thought about it some more.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

I'm close to that although my truck is 6 years old I do have a DVD player
(bought last year) and a microwave oven and if I recall last time I went to
a movie was 2 years ago and I conserve periods by not using them and I think
you have more recumbents than I do yet you appear to look on the bad side of
things and I tend to look at the good side, strange how that works eh?

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:01:57
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>
>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>
>
> If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying to
> improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal income
> has continued to climb not fall....

AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years. However,
most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making much
more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.

>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>
>
> They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
> regardless of their personal income

They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.

>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>
>
> You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw as if
> they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now considered
> wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They worked
> for what they have.

But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth? If so,
they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
me here).

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:15:01
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38aad7F5n29grU1@individual.net...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> > news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
> >
> >>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
> >>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
> >
> >
> > If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
to
> > improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
income
> > has continued to climb not fall....
>
> AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years. However,
> most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making much
> more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
> introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.

I could care less about how much people above me make, since most of them
are owners of businesses you don't seem to want to count how many jobs
they've created.

> >>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
> >>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
> >
> >
> > They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
> > regardless of their personal income
>
> They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.

Doubtful, heck I'd never heard of them until about 3 years ago, many parts
of the US (such as middle of nowhere Indiana) don't get out much :)

> >>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
> >
> >
> > You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
as if
> > they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
considered
> > wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
worked
> > for what they have.
>
> But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth?

If working for it fits your moral sense then yes I imagine most did

> If so,
> they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
> me here).

I wonder how many jobs Warren Buffet has created over the years, does he
think he's in the "unusual minority"?

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:03:40
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:SIednSWph4srjr3fRVn-sA@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38aad7F5n29grU1@individual.net...
>> k Leuck wrote:
>>
>> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> > news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>> >
>> >>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>> >>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>> >
>> >
>> > If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
> to
>> > improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
> income
>> > has continued to climb not fall....
>>
>> AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years. However,
>> most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making much
>> more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
>> introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.
>
> I could care less about how much people above me make, since most of them
> are owners of businesses you don't seem to want to count how many jobs
> they've created.
>
>> >>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>> >>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>> >
>> >
>> > They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>> > regardless of their personal income
>>
>> They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.
>
> Doubtful, heck I'd never heard of them until about 3 years ago, many parts
> of the US (such as middle of nowhere Indiana) don't get out much :)
>
>> >>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>> >
>> >
>> > You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
> as if
>> > they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
> considered
>> > wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
> worked
>> > for what they have.
>>
>> But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth?
>
> If working for it fits your moral sense then yes I imagine most did
>
>> If so,
>> they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
>> me here).
>
> I wonder how many jobs Warren Buffet has created over the years, does he
> think he's in the "unusual minority"?

Oh, I thought you meant the gueritaville guy. I saw that place, where
Jimmy Buffet used to hang out. Back then you could get a decent place in
Key West for $50K. You'd be lucky to find a shack or a delapidated
houseboat for half-a-million nowadays. But Key West is also a much nicer
place now, except for the hoardes of tourists.... which aren't always that
bad. You get to meet lots of people as the cruise ships roll through.
>
>

Date: 26 Feb 2005 08:36:12
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:SIednSWph4srjr3fRVn-sA@comcast.com...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>news:38aad7F5n29grU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>k Leuck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
>>
>>to
>>
>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
>>
>>income
>>
>>>>has continued to climb not fall....
>>>
>>>AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years. However,
>>>most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making much
>>>more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
>>>introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.
>>
>>I could care less about how much people above me make, since most of them
>>are owners of businesses you don't seem to want to count how many jobs
>>they've created.
>>
>>
>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>
>>>They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.
>>
>>Doubtful, heck I'd never heard of them until about 3 years ago, many parts
>>of the US (such as middle of nowhere Indiana) don't get out much :)
>>
>>
>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
>>
>>as if
>>
>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>
>>considered
>>
>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>
>>worked
>>
>>>>for what they have.
>>>
>>>But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth?
>>
>>If working for it fits your moral sense then yes I imagine most did
>>
>>
>>>If so,
>>>they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
>>>me here).
>>
>>I wonder how many jobs Warren Buffet has created over the years, does he
>>think he's in the "unusual minority"?
>
>
> Oh, I thought you meant the gueritaville guy. I saw that place, where
> Jimmy Buffet used to hang out....

See <http://www.responsiblewealth.org/ >: I understand that Warren (not
Jimmy) Buffet is involved.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 09:42:28
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38bfifF5k6cluU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:SIednSWph4srjr3fRVn-sA@comcast.com...
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:38aad7F5n29grU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>k Leuck wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
>>>
>>>to
>>>
>>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
>>>
>>>income
>>>
>>>>>has continued to climb not fall....
>>>>
>>>>AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years. However,
>>>>most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making much
>>>>more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
>>>>introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.
>>>
>>>I could care less about how much people above me make, since most of them
>>>are owners of businesses you don't seem to want to count how many jobs
>>>they've created.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>
>>>>They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.
>>>
>>>Doubtful, heck I'd never heard of them until about 3 years ago, many
>>>parts
>>>of the US (such as middle of nowhere Indiana) don't get out much :)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
>>>
>>>as if
>>>
>>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>
>>>considered
>>>
>>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>
>>>worked
>>>
>>>>>for what they have.
>>>>
>>>>But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth?
>>>
>>>If working for it fits your moral sense then yes I imagine most did
>>>
>>>
>>>>If so,
>>>>they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
>>>>me here).
>>>
>>>I wonder how many jobs Warren Buffet has created over the years, does he
>>>think he's in the "unusual minority"?
>>
>>
>> Oh, I thought you meant the gueritaville guy. I saw that place, where
>> Jimmy Buffet used to hang out....
>
> See <http://www.responsiblewealth.org/>: I understand that Warren (not
> Jimmy) Buffet is involved.
>
> --

Jimmy Buffet lived in our town for a number of years and my take on him is
that he is both wealthy and responsible. While he was here he took an
interest in local enviornmental issues and local environmental groups could
count on his support, usually financial. He lived on a country road long
popular with cyclists. As recreational cycling grew the residents wanted to
ban cycling on this road. Buffett didn't go along with them and their
efforts failed.

As an aside, local lady has been after him for years to let her start and
operate an official fan club for parrotheads. There would be some big bucks
to be spread around if he were to have an official club. His answer has
always been No. He doesn't want a fan club and as far as I know there is no
parrothead group that has ever been sanctioned by Buffet.

While he lived here Buffet was considered an asset to the town and his
moving away has been a loss as far as I am concerned.

skip

Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:23:17
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:kdednUTjlq5GBb3fRVn-qw@giganews.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38bfifF5k6cluU1@individual.net...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:SIednSWph4srjr3fRVn-sA@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:38aad7F5n29grU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>>k Leuck wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at
>>>>>>>crappy jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If someone is working a $6 an hour job it's their fault for not trying
>>>>
>>>>to
>>>>
>>>>>>improve themselves, you also seem to ignore the fact that personal
>>>>
>>>>income
>>>>
>>>>>>has continued to climb not fall....
>>>>>
>>>>>AVERAGE personal income has barely risen for the last 25 years.
>>>>>However,
>>>>>most people are making LESS, while a very FEW at the top are making
>>>>>much
>>>>>more. If minimum wage had been indexed to inflation from its
>>>>>introduction, it would be almost $10/hour, not $5.25/hour.
>>>>
>>>>I could care less about how much people above me make, since most of
>>>>them
>>>>are owners of businesses you don't seem to want to count how many jobs
>>>>they've created.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working
>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They likely do not know what a recumbent bicycle is, most people don't
>>>>>>regardless of their personal income
>>>>>
>>>>>They know; they just like to use the term "whatthehellisthat" instead.
>>>>
>>>>Doubtful, heck I'd never heard of them until about 3 years ago, many
>>>>parts
>>>>of the US (such as middle of nowhere Indiana) don't get out much :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You continue this rant about people in lower classes getting the screw
>>>>
>>>>as if
>>>>
>>>>>>they are totally helpless, instead you will find many who are now
>>>>
>>>>considered
>>>>
>>>>>>wealthy were once dirt poor (including many in my own family). They
>>>>
>>>>worked
>>>>
>>>>>>for what they have.
>>>>>
>>>>>But have they EARNED (in a moral sense) ALL their great wealth?
>>>>
>>>>If working for it fits your moral sense then yes I imagine most did
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If so,
>>>>>they are in an unusual minority. (Hell, even Warren Buffet agrees with
>>>>>me here).
>>>>
>>>>I wonder how many jobs Warren Buffet has created over the years, does he
>>>>think he's in the "unusual minority"?
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, I thought you meant the gueritaville guy. I saw that place,
>>> where Jimmy Buffet used to hang out....
>>
>> See <http://www.responsiblewealth.org/>: I understand that Warren (not
>> Jimmy) Buffet is involved.
>>
>> --
>
> Jimmy Buffet lived in our town for a number of years and my take on him is
> that he is both wealthy and responsible. While he was here he took an
> interest in local enviornmental issues and local environmental groups
> could count on his support, usually financial. He lived on a country road
> long popular with cyclists. As recreational cycling grew the residents
> wanted to ban cycling on this road. Buffett didn't go along with them and
> their efforts failed.
>
> As an aside, local lady has been after him for years to let her start and
> operate an official fan club for parrotheads. There would be some big
> bucks to be spread around if he were to have an official club. His
> answer has always been No. He doesn't want a fan club and as far as I
> know there is no parrothead group that has ever been sanctioned by Buffet.
>
> While he lived here Buffet was considered an asset to the town and his
> moving away has been a loss as far as I am concerned.

Well, I wasn't a fan of his music but have nothing against him. I didn't
dislike his music either. I liked Key West a lot, and suppose that might
give me a reason to enjoy his music. Wish I could get in on the Key West
real estate boom, especially before Cuba opens up. Or the nascient Cuban
real estate boom that's around the corner... I'd hate to think the filthy
capitalists are going to sew that up without letting the rest of us in on
things. At one point a development group composed of gays bought the entire
main street properties in Key West (I don't remember the name of the street
at the moment, but the one where all she shops are located now) for a mere
million dollars. It has to be worth half-a-billion now. And the values
double every couple of years.

Date: 25 Feb 2005 20:51:06
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
> skip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>
>>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary incomes
>>>[1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US, not to
>>>mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty terrible,
>>>huh?
>>>
>>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical mass
>>>transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to
>> provide this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if everybody
>> is happy then it's fine with me.
>
> Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at crappy
> jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>
> They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at two
> or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>
> Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth
>

Why they don't go to Scandinavia where they could find happiness, afford a
recumbent bicycle, and have all day to ride it. Seems to me they would be
much off there rather than having to be lower class and work three jobs at
$6 per hour in the USA. In Scandinavia they could be unemployed and middle
class. That's what you would call a great country.

skip

P.S. I think they should also check out the unemployment opportunities
currently available in Germany.

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:46:00
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:ib-dnVN2JvePeYLfRVn-og@giganews.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>> skip wrote:
>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>> news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
>>>>incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
>>>>not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
>>>>terrible, huh?
>>>>
>>>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
>>>>mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to
>>> provide this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if
>>> everybody is happy then it's fine with me.
>>
>> Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at crappy
>> jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>
>> They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>> two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>
>> Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman � Earth
>>
>
> Why they don't go to Scandinavia where they could find happiness, afford a
> recumbent bicycle, and have all day to ride it. Seems to me they would be
> much off there rather than having to be lower class and work three jobs at
> $6 per hour in the USA. In Scandinavia they could be unemployed and
> middle class. That's what you would call a great country.

Americans aren't taking advantage of that opportunity, but Muslims are.
That's the dark cloud looming on Paradise's horizon.

>
> P.S. I think they should also check out the unemployment opportunities
> currently available in Germany.

Over 10% now.

But the truth is, no one has this problem worked out. Although Americans
work more, they're less productive per hour. France is moving back in the
other direction, and they're about to eliminate the 35 hour week, and cut
back on benefits, vacation time, etc. The problem is that we're stuck with
laboristic economies. There really is no ideal solution, short of a genuine
"ownership society." So I hope Bush is sincere about that. But I'm not
holding my breath. So far the greatest advocate of an ownership society has
been a Democrat: Pat Moynihan. And someone else is now in his seat.

Date: 26 Feb 2005 09:11:52
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:ib-dnVN2JvePeYLfRVn-og@giganews.com...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>>>skip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
>>>>>incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
>>>>>not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
>>>>>terrible, huh?
>>>>>
>>>>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
>>>>>mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to
>>>>provide this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if
>>>>everybody is happy then it's fine with me.
>>>
>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at crappy
>>>jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>
>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>
>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>>>
>>
>>Why they don't go to Scandinavia where they could find happiness, afford a
>>recumbent bicycle, and have all day to ride it. Seems to me they would be
>>much off there rather than having to be lower class and work three jobs at
>>$6 per hour in the USA. In Scandinavia they could be unemployed and
>>middle class. That's what you would call a great country.
>
>
> Americans aren't taking advantage of that opportunity, but Muslims are.
> That's the dark cloud looming on Paradise's horizon.
>
>
>>P.S. I think they should also check out the unemployment opportunities
>>currently available in Germany.
>
>
> Over 10% now.
>
> But the truth is, no one has this problem worked out. Although Americans
> work more, they're less productive per hour. France is moving back in the
> other direction, and they're about to eliminate the 35 hour week, and cut
> back on benefits, vacation time, etc. The problem is that we're stuck with
> laboristic economies. There really is no ideal solution, short of a genuine
> "ownership society." So I hope Bush is sincere about that. But I'm not
> holding my breath....

Finally, you are making some sense.

The answer is cooperation, where people help each other to lead
emotionally fulfilling lives, with basic needs met and some luxuries
from whatever surplus exists. Unfortunately, most people have not
reached the moral maturity to achieve that goal.

What all the promoters of capitalism miss or ignore are the destructive
side effects of competition, where there must by necessity be losers in
a world of finite resources. The psychological damage is immense - one
only needs to compare young children raised in decent environments to
the average adults to see that.

We are failing as a species, and things are almost guaranteed to get
much worse over then next century. After that, hopefully the survivors
will have learned some important lessons and will build a society that
approaches human potential, or the species will become extinct to make
way for another that at least has the potential to be better.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:52:01
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:ib-dnVN2JvePeYLfRVn-og@giganews.com...
>
>
> P.S. I think they should also check out the unemployment opportunities
> currently available in Germany.

Plenty of opportunities considering the fact Germany's unemployment rate is
at 9.2% and climbing

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:21:35
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

$kip wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>
>>$kip wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary incomes
>>>>[1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US, not to
>>>>mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty terrible,
>>>>huh?
>>>>
>>>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical mass
>>>>transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to
>>>provide this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if everybody
>>>is happy then it's fine with me.
>>
>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at crappy
>>jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>
>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at two
>>or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>
>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>>
>
>
> Why they don't go to Scandinavia where they could find happiness, afford a
> recumbent bicycle, and have all day to ride it. Seems to me they would be
> much off there rather than having to be lower class and work three jobs at
> $6 per hour in the USA. In Scandinavia they could be unemployed and middle
> class. That's what you would call a great country.

Those countries do not exactly encourage immigration.

If one of the Scandinavian or Benelux countries offered full citizenship
and benefits to all US citizens who abhor Shrub, I would make all the
right-wing posters here happy and move there.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:55:53
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a81kF5kf1fcU1@individual.net...
>
> Those countries do not exactly encourage immigration.

Actually they do, friend of mine was trying to immigrate to Norway last
year, only reason why she couldn't go is a delay over paperwork, she'll try
again this year and will likely make it. They seem to have this need for
nurses at the moment

> If one of the Scandinavian or Benelux countries offered full citizenship
> and benefits to all US citizens who abhor Shrub, I would make all the
> right-wing posters here happy and move there.

Damn Tom does everyone have to assist you to do anything?

Date: 25 Feb 2005 22:06:27
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a81kF5kf1fcU1@individual.net...
>
>>Those countries do not exactly encourage immigration.
>
>
> Actually they do, friend of mine was trying to immigrate to Norway last
> year, only reason why she couldn't go is a delay over paperwork, she'll try
> again this year and will likely make it. They seem to have this need for
> nurses at the moment
>
>
>>If one of the Scandinavian or Benelux countries offered full citizenship
>>and benefits to all US citizens who abhor Shrub, I would make all the
>>right-wing posters here happy and move there.
>
>
> Damn Tom does everyone have to assist you to do anything?

So you think it is better to advance by exploiting people?

Well, people keep on telling me I should leave the country, so they
should be willing to assist. That would only be fair?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 00:05:58
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38aaljF5n29grU3@individual.net...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> > news:38a81kF5kf1fcU1@individual.net...
> >
> >>Those countries do not exactly encourage immigration.
> >
> >
> > Actually they do, friend of mine was trying to immigrate to Norway last
> > year, only reason why she couldn't go is a delay over paperwork, she'll
try
> > again this year and will likely make it. They seem to have this need for
> > nurses at the moment
> >
> >
> >>If one of the Scandinavian or Benelux countries offered full citizenship
> >>and benefits to all US citizens who abhor Shrub, I would make all the
> >>right-wing posters here happy and move there.
> >
> >
> > Damn Tom does everyone have to assist you to do anything?
>
> So you think it is better to advance by exploiting people?

Exploitation how?

> Well, people keep on telling me I should leave the country, so they
> should be willing to assist. That would only be fair?

If I recall you brought this up in the first place with Canada, all I'm
saying is if you do move you may not like what you find when you get there

Date: 25 Feb 2005 21:40:53
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a81kF5kf1fcU1@individual.net...
> $kip wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38a1ckF4dqk6uU2@individual.net...
>>
>>>$kip wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:389tetF5lqh5bU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Actually, the unemployed in Scandinavia have better discretionary
>>>>>incomes [1], housing and health care than the working poor in the US,
>>>>>not to mention a whole lot more free time to ride bicycles. Pretty
>>>>>terrible, huh?
>>>>>
>>>>>[1] Enough to afford a recumbent bicycle, especially since practical
>>>>>mass transportation make owning a motor vehicle for most people.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's only pretty terrible for those poor suckers who are working to
>>>>provide this life of leisure for the "unemployed". But hey, if
>>>>everybody is happy then it's fine with me.
>>>
>>>Are you happy for all the people in the US working for <$6/hour at crappy
>>>jobs where they are treated as disposable workers?
>>>
>>>They can not afford recumbent bicycles, and they are likely working at
>>>two or three jobs, so they have no time to ride.
>>>
>>>Yes, it is a great country for those born into the lower classes.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>>>
>>
>>
>> Why they don't go to Scandinavia where they could find happiness, afford
>> a recumbent bicycle, and have all day to ride it. Seems to me they would
>> be much off there rather than having to be lower class and work three
>> jobs at $6 per hour in the USA. In Scandinavia they could be unemployed
>> and middle class. That's what you would call a great country.
>
> Those countries do not exactly encourage immigration.
>
> If one of the Scandinavian or Benelux countries offered full citizenship
> and benefits to all US citizens who abhor Shrub, I would make all the
> right-wing posters here happy and move there.
>
> --

Why are those wonderful counties so mean to our huddled, downtrodden masses?
That's just not right.

skip

Date: 25 Feb 2005 06:32:13
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Testing, using a different NNTP server.

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387k65F5k3qcfU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387fv0F5kfv95U1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Zach:
>>>>
>>>>In all seriousness, Tom is full of crap. Reasoning with him doesn't
>>>>accomplish much. He believes American forces are terrorists. What more
>>>>is there to say?...
>>>
>>>That of course is a misrepresentation (well DUH!).
>>
>>
>> <quote>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL
>> COVERT
>> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>> ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?</quote>
>>
>>>However, there are numerous cases of the use of excessive force in
>>>unjustified wars by the US resulting in the deaths of millions of
>>>civilians (e.g. southeast Asia), not the mention the many governments
>>>that the US has supported that use terrorist tactics against their own
>>>populations.
>>
>>
>> Millions of civilians? But even if these allegations were true, the
>> justification for them within the context of the Cold War (whether the
>> left deliberately killed not just millions, but hundreds of millions) was
>> the policy or "realpolitik" and "stability" which your sound now tacitly
>> supports as the alternative to the stated Bush policy of democratization.
>> By adopting the position you decry, you've sacrificed any moral high
>> ground you might have claimed.
>
> If Cheney/Rove et al truly believe in freedom and opportunity for all, the
> moon is made of green cheese. I am not that gullible.
>
>>>All societies at all times have been the same. There is a small group of
>>>people with great avarice that attempt to exploit the remainder of the
>>>population. If you can not see who they are in the US, and how they
>>>effect their policies, then you are either ignorant, stupid, or willfully
>>>not looking.
>>
>>
>> I might be open to some actual proof of this, were not your proposed cure
>> so discredited. If I had to choose between the corruption and avarice of
>> the Politburo and that of the US Congress and Executive together with
>> "big business" the choice wouldn't be a difficult one to make.
>
> What do you suppose my proposed cure is?
>
> Typical right wing - anyone who disagrees with Rove/Norquist/Strauss et al
> is a supporter of murderous, totalitarian, command economy regimes
> exemplified by Stalin and Brother No. 1.
>
> Have you noticed how all the people in Scandinavia and Benelux are living
> miserable lives in abject poverty surrounded by violence? Yes, I am a
> horrible person for wishing the living conditions in those countries on
> other people.
>
>>>And if you want to post your apologies for their actions in a public
>>>forum devoted to something else, don't complain about the reactions you
>>>get.
>>
>>
>> Why would I apologize for someone else's actions over whom I have little
>> control?
>
> I was using apology in the sense of providing support for a position.
>
>> The avarice in western society is circumscribed, and you have both a vote
>> and political voice to oppose it (if you could figure out how to do so
>> effectively and convincingly). Those who live under the avarice of
>> leftist totalitarian regimes are not so lucky.
>>
>> It's not that I'm in favor of the avaricious and opposed to the poor.
>> It's that your diagnosis and proposed cures are worse than the disease.
>> Demonstrably, a lot worse. But believe it or not, I do understand your
>> anger. I just don't think you've accurately assessed the situation at
>> all.
>
> You of course deliberately misrepresent what my "proposed cure" is. And
> you were the one to whine about debating tactics.
>
> If you haven't figured it out by now, I really don't care what you think,
> and have no interest in changing your mind. But I am happy to fling the
> crap right back when someone else dumps it in an inappropriate space. So
> if you don't want to see any more political posts from me, two solutions
> are really obvious.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 18:21:19
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Zach wrote:

> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>
>>Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
>>defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back
>>over the fence into your yard.
>
>
> Why not just dig a small hole for them in your yard and bury them in
> your yard? After all the feces have been produced, that is a fact that
> you can't change and whatever odours they produce as they decay will be
> near enough your yard to smell whether you throw them over your
> neighbours fence or not. Plus by just burying them in your yard you
> won't have to get your rubber gloves soiled. All metaphorically
> speaking, of course.

A sensible suggestion, but what fun would that be?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 24 Feb 2005 15:54:04
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:YuednWvrJu3o9oDfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> > news:384ro8F5k026kU1@individual.net...
> >>
> >> Will the parts to service them be readily available at any
decently
> >> stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be
that
> >> proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.
> >>
> >> Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from
a
> >> defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tom Sherman - Earth
> >
> > How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?
> >
> >
>
> There are a few of us who prefer retro - Bridgestone's, vintage
Italian road
> bikes, Paramount's, Raleigh's, Ryan's, etc. My newest bike is a '96
GRR
> bought in '98. All the bikes in my personal collection have acquired
their
> character through the test of time and miles.
>
> I'm not reaching for my check book every time a new bike gets hyped.
So I
> don't expect to be buying and selling a B*g*a, a N*C*m, or whatever
this
> year and lose $2,000 to $3,000 on a bike with a couple hundred miles
on it.
>
> skip

My oldest bike is a 1998 Crystal Engineering Speed Ross though my
mother keeps her 1995 BikeE in my shop. My Gold Rush is a 1999.

Zach

Date: 23 Feb 2005 17:33:54
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism
it's
> > doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any
of these
> > other "wicked problems" that face us.
>
> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires,
and
> top posting to Usenet groups.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

What's wrong with integrated headsets? The HP Velotechnik Grasshopper
uses an integrated headset.

Zach

Date: 23 Feb 2005 20:21:03
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Zach wrote:

> Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism
>
> it's
>
>>>doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any
>
> of these
>
>>>other "wicked problems" that face us.
>>
>>The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires,
>
> and
>
>>top posting to Usenet groups.
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>
>
> What's wrong with integrated headsets? The HP Velotechnik Grasshopper
> uses an integrated headset.

Will the parts to service them be readily available at any decently
stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be that
proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.

Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from a
defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 23 Feb 2005 23:52:32
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:384ro8F5k026kU1@individual.net...
>
> Will the parts to service them be readily available at any decently
> stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be that
> proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.
>
> Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from a
> defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth

How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?

Date: 24 Feb 2005 10:20:13
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:YuednWvrJu3o9oDfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:384ro8F5k026kU1@individual.net...
>>
>> Will the parts to service them be readily available at any decently
>> stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be that
>> proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.
>>
>> Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from a
>> defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
> How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?
>
>

There are a few of us who prefer retro - Bridgestone's, vintage Italian road
bikes, Paramount's, Raleigh's, Ryan's, etc. My newest bike is a '96 GRR
bought in '98. All the bikes in my personal collection have acquired their
character through the test of time and miles.

I'm not reaching for my check book every time a new bike gets hyped. So I
don't expect to be buying and selling a B*g*a, a N*C*m, or whatever this
year and lose $2,000 to $3,000 on a bike with a couple hundred miles on it.

skip

Date: 24 Feb 2005 14:13:28
From: Tim
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

In article <YuednWvrJu3o9oDfRVn-jw@comcast.com >, k Leuck wrote:
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:384ro8F5k026kU1@individual.net...
>>
>> Will the parts to service them be readily available at any decently
>> stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be that
>> proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.
>>
>> Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from a
>> defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
> How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?
>
>
The bike I owned twenty years ago is now being ridden by one of
my young cousins. My fifteen year old mountain bike is still being
ridden 18 miles a day though I think only the rear hub and the frame are
still original on that. Everything else has either worn out or suffered
terminal crash damage and been replaced at least once:)

--
Tim.

Date: 24 Feb 2005 10:16:02
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?

I am at the moment. Well, sort of. The frame dates from 1984, the seat
post from 1983 and the stem from 1982. And the wheels from last month.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

Date: 24 Feb 2005 00:15:28
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:384ro8F5k026kU1@individual.net...
>
>>Will the parts to service them be readily available at any decently
>>stocked LBS in 20 years time? The general consensus seems to be that
>>proprietary parts are unfavorable for this reason.
>>
>>Disclaimer: Of course, I happen to own a bicycle and a trike from a
>>defunct manufacturer that used plenty of proprietary parts. ;)
>>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>
>
> How many people are riding 20 year old bikes?

Quite a few actually, which is not surprising since the diamond frame
bicycle has not changed significantly since April 1, 1934.

I plan to be riding a 20 year old Earth Cycles Sunset Lowracer [TM] 15
years from now.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 22 Feb 2005 13:50:51
From: Matt
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Nomad never said that.

Date: 23 Feb 2005 05:57:31
From: rocketman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Matt" <mattmorgan64@msn.com > wrote in message
news:1109109051.912073.131710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Nomad never said that.
>

Error is inconsistent with my prime functions.

Date: 22 Feb 2005 13:32:16
From: Matt
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Non Sequiters fun?

I dunno man. One time this thing came aboard the enterprise... Nomad it
was called. It erased Lt Uhuras memory, killed scotty and was gonna
kill the kirk unit, but he outsted it and threw it into an overload.
Eventually they beamed it out of the ship and it blew up. Which reminds
me, why do they need starships if there are teleporters? Wouldn't you
just need 1 starship, and then you could go around putting in
teleporters (and teleporter attenuators/repeaters, I suppose)? Also, if
you can beam things around, why do you need photon torpedos? Couldn't
you just beam an M80 over to the bridge of the guy you were fighting?
If not, couldn't you just beam his whole ship somewhere else?

Oh, I almost forgot. Nomad was very fond of saying "non sequiter".

Date: 22 Feb 2005 21:45:05
From: rocketman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Matt" <mattmorgan64@msn.com > wrote in message
news:1109107936.736868.240110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Non Sequiters fun?
>
> I dunno man. One time this thing came aboard the enterprise... Nomad it
> was called. It erased Lt Uhuras memory, killed scotty and was gonna
> kill the kirk unit, but he outsted it and threw it into an overload.
> Eventually they beamed it out of the ship and it blew up. Which reminds
> me, why do they need starships if there are teleporters? Wouldn't you
> just need 1 starship, and then you could go around putting in
> teleporters (and teleporter attenuators/repeaters, I suppose)? Also, if
> you can beam things around, why do you need photon torpedos? Couldn't
> you just beam an M80 over to the bridge of the guy you were fighting?
> If not, couldn't you just beam his whole ship somewhere else?
>
> Oh, I almost forgot. Nomad was very fond of saying "non sequiter".
>

Please take me off of your keting lists.

Thanks!

R

Date: 22 Feb 2005 12:43:16
From: Matt
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Thats why security alarms are so great.

Date: 22 Feb 2005 21:20:02
From: rocketman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Matt" <mattmorgan64@msn.com > wrote in message
news:1109104996.289080.125830@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Thats why security alarms are so great.
>

Non sequiturs can be fun.

R

Date: 21 Feb 2005 20:00:12
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:

> I can't imagine any old hippy with still functioning brain cells that

> wouldn't want to be there. It's interesting that younger people
> predominate. Some of them would have to be the children and
grandchildren
> of the hippies. Somehow the tradition lives on.

There are some old hippies there but many more young people. The old
hippies tend to be the ones with a lot of money who come in large
motorhomes. I met a grandmother from Berkeley in her mid 70's there and
she was there with her husband, daughter and son-in-law. I met her
while the "man" was burning on the second to last night of the event
and got a ride back to her camp with her family on an art car that
resembled a boat. I rolled my Street Machine up the ramp and off we
went cruising the Playa on this boat which I think was based on a van
chassis. Another time I met a 58 year old woman riding a RANS Tailwind.
We rode back to her motorhome where I met her husband who looked about
ten years older and she gave me some cookies and let me hang out in the
motor home for as long as I wanted. Very nice woman. Actually everyone
I met there was quite nice and friendly.

> Right now I wondering if I can sell this deal to a couple of friends
and
> head that way. I need to be there for the Critical Tits Ride. 5,000
women
> riding their bikes topless - now that's what I would call a
spectacle. Some
> people like to count sheep to go to sleep. I'd much rather count
naked
> women on bicycles myself.

I agree. Let me tell you I have enough images burned in my mind from
the past two years at BM that I have no shortage of things to count if
I'm having trouble sleeping.

> And of course all the all the rest of it would be good too.

Yes, I had many incredible experiences there. I think I learned more
the first week I was at Burning Man than in the entire past ten years.
For me it was a real personal growth experience and I am still
receiving the benefits of it. The first year I went there one of the
greeters at the gate said "welcome home" and I didn't really understand
what they meant. The second year someone "welcomed me home" and I knew
exactly what they meant. It was like coming back home to the utopian
land of my dreams.

BTW, I've gotten my transportation to and from BM for the past two
years as part of a volunteer job driving a motorhome there for a
customer who attends. It only gets 8 miles per gallon but it would have
to go there if I went or not. This has been a single occupant vehicle
since he arrives seperately but at least this last trip I was able to
take 2 recumbents and 5 or 6 uprights there for another customer and
was able to bring back one man to Reno and a woman to Oakland.

Zach

Date: 21 Feb 2005 23:18:22
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1109044812.296195.259450@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

<snip >

Another time I met a 58 year old woman riding a RANS Tailwind.
> We rode back to her motorhome where I met her husband who looked about
> ten years older and she gave me some cookies and let me hang out in the
> motor home for as long as I wanted. Very nice woman.

Uh huh. I've had some of those cookies too. They're pretty good aren't
they. So are the pancakes.

> For me it was a real personal growth experience and I am still
> receiving the benefits of it. The first year I went there one of the
> greeters at the gate said "welcome home" and I didn't really understand
> what they meant. The second year someone "welcomed me home" and I knew
> exactly what they meant. It was like coming back home to the utopian
> land of my dreams.
>
> BTW, I've gotten my transportation to and from BM for the past two
> years as part of a volunteer job driving a motorhome there for a
> customer who attends. It only gets 8 miles per gallon but it would have
> to go there if I went or not. This has been a single occupant vehicle
> since he arrives seperately but at least this last trip I was able to
> take 2 recumbents and 5 or 6 uprights there for another customer and
> was able to bring back one man to Reno and a woman to Oakland.
>
> Zach
>

I sure would like to have a photo of you driving that motor home. Would you
send me one? (only kidding. sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to get
where you need to be)

skip

Date: 21 Feb 2005 18:14:51
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

skip wrote:
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:p_ednceYqtIyH4ffRVn-2w@comcast.com...
> <snip>
>
> >
> > What is Burning Man?
> >
> >>
>
> Old hippies and some of their off spring camping out in the desert
and
> having a grand ole time just like they did back in the '60's, but
without
> all the loud music. Here's the on topic part: Lots of bare naked
ladies
> riding bicycles of all sorts and doing other bare naked things. They
have
> lots of creative energy just as Zach says.

I know a couple in their mid-60's who could be described as old hippy
artists that have been going to Burning Man every year since 2000. In
fact I originally found out about Burning Man through them. However the
majority of the people attending Burning Man appear to be in their 20's
and 30's. Lots of topless and naked women, many riding bikes. On Friday
they have a ride called Critical Tits. Picture about 5000 women riding
topless. There is actually a lot of loud music though instead of 1960's
music it is electronic techno music. There is always some music at all
hours but it is easy to get away from the music if you have a bike.
Once you arrive you aren't allowed to drive a motor vehicle unless it
is a scooter or an art car registered with the Department of Mutant
Vehicles. So there are lots of people getting around bike bike and on
foot. The speed limit for art cars is 5 mph. They are pretty strict on
what constitutes an art car and how it is driven, especially after an
art car fatality in 2003. Other than that, not allowing dogs, cleaning
up after yourself and not hurting anyone there aren't any laws at
Burning Man. People can do whatever they want as long as it isn't
causing harm. This tends to bring out a lot of creative energy and
people losing their inhibitions in ways they wouldn't in real life. I'd
say only about 10% of the people there go around naked but there is
plenty of other odd behaviour in "Black Rock City" one wouldn't
normally find in a real city.

> Google "Brad Templeton" + "Burning Man"
>
> Brad is a interesting recumbent guy who likes to go to BM every year
and
> then post his photos on his web site.

Also go to www.burningman.com. I took about 350 photos my first time at
Burning Man in 2003, somewhat fewer last year. Photos don't do it
justice though, one really has to go there to experience it. I've never
been to anything like Burning Man before. It was a real life changing
experience and now it is an annual tradition, I already have my ticket
to the 2005 Burning Man. This year I will most likely bring a trike. I
brought the BiGHA test bike in 2003 and my HP Velotechnik Street
Machine GT last year. Anyways Burning Man had quite an influence on me.
In fact many of the dreams I have now take place there. Seems like at
least once a week I have a dream that takes place at Burning Man.

Zach

Date: 21 Feb 2005 21:24:45
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1109038491.181031.172500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> skip wrote:
>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:p_ednceYqtIyH4ffRVn-2w@comcast.com...
>> <snip>
>>
>> >
>> > What is Burning Man?
>> >
>> >>
>>
>> Old hippies and some of their off spring camping out in the desert
> and
>> having a grand ole time just like they did back in the '60's, but
> without
>> all the loud music. Here's the on topic part: Lots of bare naked
> ladies
>> riding bicycles of all sorts and doing other bare naked things. They
> have
>> lots of creative energy just as Zach says.
>
> I know a couple in their mid-60's who could be described as old hippy
> artists that have been going to Burning Man every year since 2000. In
> fact I originally found out about Burning Man through them. However the
> majority of the people attending Burning Man appear to be in their 20's
> and 30's. Lots of topless and naked women, many riding bikes. On Friday
> they have a ride called Critical Tits. Picture about 5000 women riding
> topless. There is actually a lot of loud music though instead of 1960's
> music it is electronic techno music. There is always some music at all
> hours but it is easy to get away from the music if you have a bike.
> Once you arrive you aren't allowed to drive a motor vehicle unless it
> is a scooter or an art car registered with the Department of Mutant
> Vehicles. So there are lots of people getting around bike bike and on
> foot. The speed limit for art cars is 5 mph. They are pretty strict on
> what constitutes an art car and how it is driven, especially after an
> art car fatality in 2003. Other than that, not allowing dogs, cleaning
> up after yourself and not hurting anyone there aren't any laws at
> Burning Man. People can do whatever they want as long as it isn't
> causing harm. This tends to bring out a lot of creative energy and
> people losing their inhibitions in ways they wouldn't in real life. I'd
> say only about 10% of the people there go around naked but there is
> plenty of other odd behaviour in "Black Rock City" one wouldn't
> normally find in a real city.
>
>> Google "Brad Templeton" + "Burning Man"
>>
>> Brad is a interesting recumbent guy who likes to go to BM every year
> and
>> then post his photos on his web site.
>
> Also go to www.burningman.com. I took about 350 photos my first time at
> Burning Man in 2003, somewhat fewer last year. Photos don't do it
> justice though, one really has to go there to experience it. I've never
> been to anything like Burning Man before. It was a real life changing
> experience and now it is an annual tradition, I already have my ticket
> to the 2005 Burning Man. This year I will most likely bring a trike. I
> brought the BiGHA test bike in 2003 and my HP Velotechnik Street
> Machine GT last year. Anyways Burning Man had quite an influence on me.
> In fact many of the dreams I have now take place there. Seems like at
> least once a week I have a dream that takes place at Burning Man.
>
> Zach
>

I can't imagine any old hippy with still functioning brain cells that
wouldn't want to be there. It's interesting that younger people
predominate. Some of them would have to be the children and grandchildren
of the hippies. Somehow the tradition lives on.

Right now I wondering if I can sell this deal to a couple of friends and
head that way. I need to be there for the Critical Tits Ride. 5,000 women
riding their bikes topless - now that's what I would call a spectacle. Some
people like to count sheep to go to sleep. I'd much rather count naked
women on bicycles myself.

And of course all the all the rest of it would be good too.

skip

Date: 21 Feb 2005 14:10:52
From: Zach
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1108834510.326440.43630@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Wasn't oil going for about $55/barrel a couple months ago? Whatever
it
> > is the price is much too low and I hope it goes above $100/barrel
to
> > pay for the real costs.
>
> Apparently you're wealthy and can survive a world depression, but
many of us
> aren't... Now, not to get off topic or anything but how many will
lose their
> lives as a result of such an economic collapse, I wonder? Seems a
bit
> excessive just to get rid of a few SUVs and SOVs.

I've read that when peak oil goes into full effect perhaps 80% of the
world population will lose their lives. I have taken a number of steps
that will allow me to survive world depression but I'm not going to get
into them here as this is way off topic.

In any case I realise I don't want to see the price of oil double but
rather I want to see a tax on automotive fuel that would cover the full
costs of driving which is now highly subsidised by general tax payers.
Basically a pollution/carbon tax that would bring the price of fuel in
the US up to the level it is in Europe which would encourage more
efficient vehicles and less driving. Normally I'm against all taxes and
government interference but this is the one area where I think the
government could be of some benefit to step in and make car drivers pay
the full price for the damage they are causing to the enviroment and
society. Right now car drivers are on a form of government welfare as
much of the true costs of driving such as road repair, traffic police
services, parking facilities and wars for oil are paid for by the
general public in one form or another through hidden subidies.

> > Then maybe the excessive number of oversized,
> > overweight, single occupant vehicles will get off our roads so we
have
> > more space for more benign forms of transportation such as riding
> > recumbents.
>
> Sorry, but you're either going to steer clear of these "off topic"
> discussions, or you're not.

I should have refrained from commenting all together but the original
poster brought up a point I feel strongly about being a tax paying
bicycle rider and seeing much of my taxes going to fund people
over-driving like there is no tomorrow. Personally I think bicycles and
bicycle accessories should be exempt from sales tax just like food is
to encourage their use. If California can give hybrid drivers a $1000+
tax refund to encourage people to buy these more efficient cars they
can certainly waive the sales tax on bicycles which are even more
efficient.

> Have fun at Burning Man. Not my cup-o-tea. I don't impose my
lifestyle on
> you, so I'm afraid I don't really honor an expressed wish to impose
yours on
> me very much. I'm just fine with a movement to hybrid cars and other
effort
> to conserve energy, and I'm not especially crazy about either SUVs,
but I
> figure people can make up their own minds and I'm not praying for
global
> economic collapse for the sake of my secret Ur-myth. There are a lot
of
> fine, brave, and unselfish people who would suffer harm, and who are
simply
> never going to buy a recumbent or any other type of bicycle.

Sorry, I was not trying to impose my wish on you. I am all for personal
freedom and dislike laws, government and being told what to do by
others. I don't care what others do as long as what they are doing
isn't hurting me. People over using their cars are hurting me by
polluting the air I breathe. I want to see this dealt with fairly. I'd
rather the government didn't get involved but many drivers don't seem
to care about others around them and therefore purchase a vehicle much
heavier than they need that gets poor fuel economy and drive it
excessively. Some people won't change unless they start having to pay
the true costs of their addictions.

BTW, while I like the freedom, creative energy and general social
experiment going on at Burning Man I dislike the fact it is way out in
the desert in a place that is very hard to get to without driving to
it. The majority of the 35,000 people going there get there in private
cars or motorhomes. Many carpool at least and the Green Tortoise bus
line brings several bus loads of people there but there is a lot of
petroleum fuel used getting there and also running generators there. I
would like to see the event become more environmentally conscious. I
think if fuel were $5/gallon the attendence would be lower but still
high, perhaps more people would carpool.

Zach

Date: 22 Feb 2005 14:18:10
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1109023852.018865.275280@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:1108834510.326440.43630@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Wasn't oil going for about $55/barrel a couple months ago? Whatever
> it
>> > is the price is much too low and I hope it goes above $100/barrel
> to
>> > pay for the real costs.
>>
>> Apparently you're wealthy and can survive a world depression, but
> many of us
>> aren't... Now, not to get off topic or anything but how many will
> lose their
>> lives as a result of such an economic collapse, I wonder? Seems a
> bit
>> excessive just to get rid of a few SUVs and SOVs.
>
> I've read that when peak oil goes into full effect perhaps 80% of the
> world population will lose their lives. I have taken a number of steps
> that will allow me to survive world depression but I'm not going to get
> into them here as this is way off topic.
>
> In any case I realise I don't want to see the price of oil double but
> rather I want to see a tax on automotive fuel that would cover the full
> costs of driving which is now highly subsidised by general tax payers.
> Basically a pollution/carbon tax that would bring the price of fuel in
> the US up to the level it is in Europe which would encourage more
> efficient vehicles and less driving. Normally I'm against all taxes and
> government interference but this is the one area where I think the
> government could be of some benefit to step in and make car drivers pay
> the full price for the damage they are causing to the enviroment and
> society. Right now car drivers are on a form of government welfare as
> much of the true costs of driving such as road repair, traffic police
> services, parking facilities and wars for oil are paid for by the
> general public in one form or another through hidden subidies.

Well, here you've wandered into my area of professional expertise. In fact
very little of the wear and tear on roads is produced by automobiles, but I
have no problem with "privatizing" roads so that we stop "subsidizing"
travel. I've even written one or two papers on the economic viability of
"congestion pricing," which is the priy justification for charging tolls.
(The toll income isn't necessary for road maintenance, per se.) But it just
seems odd that folks who'd opt for a socialistic system in just about every
other area complain that fuel prices don't reflect true ket prices, and
that we could artificially raise prices to an abstract ket shadaw-price
by imposing taxes. That would seem to me to be going the wrong direction.

Also, the estimates of an "oil peak" are rather theoretical. It's not that
they're wrong, or that we shouldn't heed the warnings, but that's really a
matter for voters to decide. I'm afraid I just don't buy the idea that a
group that apparently supports democratization only when it works to the
disadvantage of their political opposition has enough wisdom and foresight
that they ought to be able to override the preferences of the public when
they're unable to make their case.

It seems to me that oil companies would be perfectly willing to jack up the
price of oil if the elasticities of demand wouldn't, by so doing, reduce
their profit. And they'd be more than willing to invest the proceeds in
alternative energy sources as long as there were some profit potential for
them either in the long or short run. And if they don't see the long run
potential perhaps it's they you ought to be talking to.

But every self-styled social constructivist I've ever met on this topic
seems more interested in promoting their particular Ur-myth than in allowing
people to make such decisions based on their rational calculation of
advantage.

>
>> > Then maybe the excessive number of oversized,
>> > overweight, single occupant vehicles will get off our roads so we
> have
>> > more space for more benign forms of transportation such as riding
>> > recumbents.

Well, you're welcome to make that case, but if there's ever a method of
transit that replaces trucking and other high intensity road uses I think
the public would just as soon do away with the road system entirely, since
it would be a superfluous and unnecessary expense. I doubt that there's
really a broad public constituency for turning the road system into a
cycling haven. We're free-riders, not to put too fine a point on it.

>>
>> Sorry, but you're either going to steer clear of these "off topic"
>> discussions, or you're not.
>
> I should have refrained from commenting all together but the original
> poster brought up a point I feel strongly about being a tax paying
> bicycle rider and seeing much of my taxes going to fund people
> over-driving like there is no tomorrow.

Well, there are countries experimenting successufully with privatized road
systems. I can direct you to some literature if you like. But I seriously
doubt that such a non-subsidized or minimally subsidized system would have
much room for bicycles.

> Personally I think bicycles and
> bicycle accessories should be exempt from sales tax just like food is
> to encourage their use.

Well, I'd just do away with the taxes altogether since I'm not into social
construction, and just let people decide how to use their own money. And I
don't leap to the conclusion that they'd all make the wrong decisions
either, given their head.

> If California can give hybrid drivers a $1000+
> tax refund to encourage people to buy these more efficient cars they
> can certainly waive the sales tax on bicycles which are even more
> efficient.
>
>> Have fun at Burning Man. Not my cup-o-tea. I don't impose my
> lifestyle on
>> you, so I'm afraid I don't really honor an expressed wish to impose
> yours on
>> me very much. I'm just fine with a movement to hybrid cars and other
> effort
>> to conserve energy, and I'm not especially crazy about either SUVs,
> but I
>> figure people can make up their own minds and I'm not praying for
> global
>> economic collapse for the sake of my secret Ur-myth. There are a lot
> of
>> fine, brave, and unselfish people who would suffer harm, and who are
> simply
>> never going to buy a recumbent or any other type of bicycle.
>
> Sorry, I was not trying to impose my wish on you. I am all for personal
> freedom and dislike laws, government and being told what to do by
> others. I don't care what others do as long as what they are doing
> isn't hurting me. People over using their cars are hurting me by
> polluting the air I breathe.

Air pollution is an externalized cost, but I'm not convinced that much of it
really comes from auto use. And you can certainly move to a place that's
relatively unaffected if you like. Even if the pollution problems were
resolved, however, there'd still be congestion problems. You have your
vote, and you have your political voice. Not everyone does, you know.

> I want to see this dealt with fairly. I'd
> rather the government didn't get involved but many drivers don't seem
> to care about others around them and therefore purchase a vehicle much
> heavier than they need that gets poor fuel economy and drive it
> excessively. Some people won't change unless they start having to pay
> the true costs of their addictions.

I don't know that that's the case, nor would I necessarily call their
preferences "addictions," any more than it would be appropriate for them to
refer to yours in those terms. There are such things as ket failures,
but they almost always require some sort of government intervention to
become stable.

Between Scylla and Charybdis.

>
> BTW, while I like the freedom, creative energy and general social
> experiment going on at Burning Man I dislike the fact it is way out in
> the desert in a place that is very hard to get to without driving to
> it. The majority of the 35,000 people going there get there in private
> cars or motorhomes. Many carpool at least and the Green Tortoise bus
> line brings several bus loads of people there but there is a lot of
> petroleum fuel used getting there and also running generators there. I
> would like to see the event become more environmentally conscious. I
> think if fuel were $5/gallon the attendence would be lower but still
> high, perhaps more people would carpool.

I don't think you're going to see me there any time soon, although Ali G
dropped by awhile ago.

>
> Zach
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 10:20:45
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Well, there are countries experimenting successufully with privatized
> road systems. I can direct you to some literature if you like. But
> I seriously doubt that such a non-subsidized or minimally subsidized
> system would have much room for bicycles.

I am, however, reliably informed that following King Ken the First's
introduction of road pricing in central London, "traffic" dropped by 15-18%
while cycling increased by 33%. Admittedly we actually had a summer in 2003
but even during the dismally damp winter which followed, cycle usage was 20%
higher than before, and Brompton are laughing all the way to the bank.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

Date: 23 Feb 2005 15:26:55
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:3833n3F5jr04mU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Well, there are countries experimenting successufully with privatized
>> road systems. I can direct you to some literature if you like. But
>> I seriously doubt that such a non-subsidized or minimally subsidized
>> system would have much room for bicycles.
>
> I am, however, reliably informed that following King Ken the First's
> introduction of road pricing in central London, "traffic" dropped by
> 15-18%
> while cycling increased by 33%. Admittedly we actually had a summer in
> 2003
> but even during the dismally damp winter which followed, cycle usage was
> 20%
> higher than before, and Brompton are laughing all the way to the bank.

I've also read a fairly well-documented study suggesting that the net
welfare from road pricing is usually negative (a cost). But it's an open
question. Demand for roads seems to be pretty inelastic in the short run,
but significantly more elastic in the long run. So apparently it just takes
time for people to accomodate a different transportation strategy. Anyway,
who is "King Ken the First?"

>
> --
>
> Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
> World Domination?
> Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
> floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
>
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 18:33:44
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...Anyway, who is "King Ken the First?"

Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London, England.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 21 Feb 2005 18:54:46
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk > wrote in message
news:1109023852.018865.275280@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> In any case I realise I don't want to see the price of oil double but
> rather I want to see a tax on automotive fuel that would cover the full
> costs of driving which is now highly subsidised by general tax payers.
> Basically a pollution/carbon tax that would bring the price of fuel in
> the US up to the level it is in Europe which would encourage more
> efficient vehicles and less driving.

The only reason why gasoline prices in europe are much higher than the US is
because of taxes to pay for bloated socialist programs, they don't pay for
more efficient vehicles. They pay roughly the same price for oil that we do.

> I should have refrained from commenting all together but the original
> poster brought up a point I feel strongly about being a tax paying
> bicycle rider and seeing much of my taxes going to fund people
> over-driving like there is no tomorrow. Personally I think bicycles and
> bicycle accessories should be exempt from sales tax just like food is
> to encourage their use. If California can give hybrid drivers a $1000+
> tax refund to encourage people to buy these more efficient cars they
> can certainly waive the sales tax on bicycles which are even more
> efficient.

The manufacturers already subsidize hybrids before they get to the sales
floor, if they didn't the price for hybrids would be far higher, for now
they are loss-leaders until they can fine tune the manufacturing process

Personally I'd rather see them manufacture more diesel cars than hybrids,
far easier to take care of and usually are more efficient

> Sorry, I was not trying to impose my wish on you. I am all for personal
> freedom and dislike laws, government and being told what to do by
> others. I don't care what others do as long as what they are doing
> isn't hurting me. People over using their cars are hurting me by
> polluting the air I breathe. I want to see this dealt with fairly.

Hoping for $100 per barrel oil isn't dealing with anything fairly.

> I'd
> rather the government didn't get involved but many drivers don't seem
> to care about others around them and therefore purchase a vehicle much
> heavier than they need that gets poor fuel economy and drive it
> excessively. Some people won't change unless they start having to pay
> the true costs of their addictions.

Telling people what they should have isn't the way to go either, people buy
what they like, so do you

>
> BTW, while I like the freedom, creative energy and general social
> experiment going on at Burning Man I dislike the fact it is way out in
> the desert in a place that is very hard to get to without driving to
> it.

What is Burning Man?

>

Date: 21 Feb 2005 19:20:05
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:p_ednceYqtIyH4ffRVn-2w@comcast.com...
<snip >

>
> What is Burning Man?
>
>>

Old hippies and some of their off spring camping out in the desert and
having a grand ole time just like they did back in the '60's, but without
all the loud music. Here's the on topic part: Lots of bare naked ladies
riding bicycles of all sorts and doing other bare naked things. They have
lots of creative energy just as Zach says.

Google "Brad Templeton" + "Burning Man"

Brad is a interesting recumbent guy who likes to go to BM every year and
then post his photos on his web site.

skip

Date: 20 Feb 2005 13:06:27
From:
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Thanks for the story. The clear implication is that "efficiency" is
going to result in lower gas taxes. Seems to me that would be contered
by the fact that people are driving more. I have trouble seeing
efficiency as a bad thing and can't believe there aren't other ways to
tax that would not punish it, even ginally.

I have the feeling that the per mile tax is more about trying to
control congestion than it is about dwindling gas tax revenues.

Date: 20 Feb 2005 16:31:20
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

<lostjohnriley@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:1108933587.244730.164790@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for the story. The clear implication is that "efficiency" is
> going to result in lower gas taxes. Seems to me that would be contered
> by the fact that people are driving more. I have trouble seeing
> efficiency as a bad thing and can't believe there aren't other ways to
> tax that would not punish it, even ginally.

I also encourage efficiency however in the end no matter what you do it ends
up somehow biting you later. I recall just before moving from California
that there were plans for another windmill generator farm in the Mojave
desert, seems so many people complained that they didn't want any more of
those "ugly" things around and the project was scrapped.

Like I said, damned if you do and damned if you don't and I'm sure there are
many other ways to tax people but remember this is California and taxes was
what ended up being the problem for the previous govenor a couple of years
ago :)

> I have the feeling that the per mile tax is more about trying to
> control congestion than it is about dwindling gas tax revenues.

No doubt they are trying to force people to use mass transit

Date: 20 Feb 2005 10:54:16
From:
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Thanks for the URLs Jim. I am also very interested in EVs (I blame
Curries bike motors being so damn good) and reading all the ways how
big oil is intertwined with motors.

Those URLs made me think even further into the original 1974 bumper
sticker [SCREW THE ARABS:RIDE A BIKE] Makes me really wonder if
electric drive has a bit of a chance.

Next thing I'll hear about is how much oil it takes for delivery of
Alhambra water. ;-)

Date: 20 Feb 2005 04:42:19
From:
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k Leuck wrote:

> Interesting story last week, seems California and Oregon is looking
at
> taxing cars by miles driven, the reasoning however isn't what one
thinks
> since it seems so many people are buying hybrid cars then the state
loses
> money from gas taxes. Damned if you do and damned if you don't

Who ever started that story wasn't much interested in facts. It is
true that as miles driven have gone up 15% in CA, gas tax revenues,
adjusted for inflation, have gone down 8% over (IIRC) a 5 year period.
I have yet to see someone explain why. I think even the original story
did not blame hybrids, but was saying that CA would take away the
financial reward for driving them - not entirely true either, since the
hybrid driver would still be spending less on gas.

I think the decline in revenues is probably mostly because the
collection method did not have an adustment for inflation. That is a
lot easier to fix than by way of some complex system of cost per mile
with surcharges for rush hour travel. Not that a system like that will
never happen. IIRC CA already has some pay lanes on "free"ways. I
think that will mostly be about congestion, not falling gas tax
revenues.

I am guessing the tax is flat, per gallon. There are lot of other ways
to price that.

Date: 20 Feb 2005 08:58:16
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

<lostjohnriley@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:1108903339.347697.191160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> k Leuck wrote:
>
> > Interesting story last week, seems California and Oregon is looking
> at
> > taxing cars by miles driven, the reasoning however isn't what one
> thinks
> > since it seems so many people are buying hybrid cars then the state
> loses
> > money from gas taxes. Damned if you do and damned if you don't
>
> Who ever started that story wasn't much interested in facts. It is
> true that as miles driven have gone up 15% in CA, gas tax revenues,
> adjusted for inflation, have gone down 8% over (IIRC) a 5 year period.
> I have yet to see someone explain why. I think even the original story
> did not blame hybrids, but was saying that CA would take away the
> financial reward for driving them - not entirely true either, since the
> hybrid driver would still be spending less on gas.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/14/eveningnews/main674120.shtml

My bad, hybrids were mentioned but not the prime cause

Date: 19 Feb 2005 20:37:15
From:
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

k ... et. al.,

What Zach is talking about should not be made light of. Check out
these sobering and frightening websites. Even the fictional accout
gives cause for concern.

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
http://www.museletter.com/archive/110.html

Jim McNaa

k Leuck wrote:
> "Zach" <zakaplan@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1108868221.317729.159430@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > > Then again that is assuming you can buy that recumbent by then
> > >
> > > I fail to understand the logic of people who wish the worst on
> > everyone else
> > > so they can have more what they happen to like doing
> >
> > In case you haven't noticed the world is going to hell due to
overuse
> > of resources and the large number of people driving single
occupant,
> > inefficient vehicles burning up petrol as if it were water has got
to
> > stop if life on earth is to survive.
>
> That is your opinion, if it weren't for oil you wouldn't have even a
> fraction of what you now have including your recumbent, Oil is used
in the
> production and transportation of your bike as well as just about
everything
> else you currently use
>
> And the earth will survive just fine long after we puny humans are
gone no
> matter what we do
>
> > Anything that can be done to
> > discourage destroying the environment through driving and excessive
> > resource use is a worthy cause in my book. I'm willing to suffer
> > reduced convenience to help save the world but many aren't and
won't
> > start conserving resources and reducing their pollution output
until it
> > becomes too expensive for them to drive.
>
> You go ahead and suffer but I see no reason why I need to just so you
can
> have a better time on your bike
>
> > This is the beginning of the
> > peak oil age and things are going to get a lot worse before they
get
> > better.
>
> We'll wait and see, I have a strong feeling it won't happen quite the
way
> you appear to want
>
> > Hopefully humanity can correct itself before it is too late and
> > the mass die off occurs.
>
> It always does
>
> > It is already starting to happen. Look at what
> > is going on with global warming and how many people are dying in
wars
> > these days.
> >
> > Zach
>
> People have been dying for something for centries, before oil it was
land,
> before that it was religion in fact these days it's religion over
oil, and
> I've heard the "this is the peak oil age" back in the 70's when it
was
> projected oil would run out in 20 years, didn't wash then and it
doesn't
> now.

Date: 19 Feb 2005 23:04:27
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

<x-posted to ASA >

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > jimmymac_4@yahoo.com <= wrote:

Jim,
Good Lord!

>What Zach is talking about should not be made light of. Check out
>these sobering and frightening websites. Even the fictional accout
>gives cause for concern.
>
>http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html

<snip other URL >

This is a doomsday scenario. I hope someone ster than me can put my mind at
rest and prove this scenario wrong.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 22 Feb 2005 15:36:56
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of these
other "wicked problems" that face us.
--
--Scott
"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:422219bc.6658574@hotforteacher.org...
> <x-posted to ASA>
>
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => jimmymac_4@yahoo.com <= wrote:
>
>
> Jim,
> Good Lord!
>
>
>>What Zach is talking about should not be made light of. Check out
>>these sobering and frightening websites. Even the fictional accout
>>gives cause for concern.
>>
>>http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
>
> <snip other URL>
>
> This is a doomsday scenario. I hope someone ster than me can put my
> mind at
> rest and prove this scenario wrong.
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----

Date: 22 Feb 2005 18:38:49
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of these
> other "wicked problems" that face us.

The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and
top posting to Usenet groups.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 07:38:15
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
>> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of
>> these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>
> The real threats are integrated headsets,

Now I'm visualizing a guy pedaling down the road with one of those neato
phone headsets somehow bionically integrated into his scull. That'd be
pretty handy if you were in Special Forces or something, but I can see why
it might be a little threatening.

> ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and top posting to Usenet groups.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 22 Feb 2005 21:24:00
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

I'm curious as to why you didn't attempt to redirect or hijack the thread at
a point where someone on the left had made some lame observation about blood
for oil, or something? That doesn't seem to catch your attention.

My point is very simple, and I thought rather nonpartisan. I can, frankly,
find no reason why the notion of national sovereignty seems so sacrosanct to
the left only when the "intruder" is a democratic regime change, but they
apparently haven't raised much of a stink over the fate of Lebanon all these
years, which is, even by their standards, an illegitimate occupation without
even the pretense of national determination. I've watched various people on
the left and it seems to me that although a very small minority are
consistent on this sort of issue (Kouchner and Hitchens, for example) most
are not. Now it seems to me that if democracy were really as important to
the "Democracy Now" folks as they claim, they'd be able to tolerate the kind
of intervention by the US that deposes a tyrant, at least to the point that
the citizens of that country make what appears to be a reasonably uncoerced
choice.

But they don't.

And I therefore have to conclude... am forced do conclude, that "democracy"
is only considered a good thing if it makes politically correct choices.
Otherwise its some sort of "false consciousness."

So anyway, the topic of this thread is what it is. If you don't like it,
you don't have to read it.

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
>> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of
>> these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>
> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and top
> posting to Usenet groups.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 06:01:03
From: rocketman
Subject: Re: P-P-P-P-PLONK

Wrong newsgroup, pal. Take it elsewhere. Don't bother responding; I won't
see it.

R

<p-p-p-plonkage >

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:3827q1F5gsjk2U1@individual.net...
> I'm curious as to why you didn't attempt to redirect or hijack the thread
> at a point where someone on the left had made some lame observation about
> blood for oil, or something? That doesn't seem to catch your attention.
>
> My point is very simple, and I thought rather nonpartisan. I can,
> frankly, find no reason why the notion of national sovereignty seems so
> sacrosanct to the left only when the "intruder" is a democratic regime
> change, but they apparently haven't raised much of a stink over the fate
> of Lebanon all these years, which is, even by their standards, an
> illegitimate occupation without even the pretense of national
> determination. I've watched various people on the left and it seems to me
> that although a very small minority are consistent on this sort of issue
> (Kouchner and Hitchens, for example) most are not. Now it seems to me
> that if democracy were really as important to the Democracy Now" folks as
> they claim, they'd be able to tolerate the kind of intervention by the US
> that deposes a tyrant, at least to the point that the citizens of that
> country make what appears to be a reasonably uncoerced choice.
>
> But they don't.
>
> And I therefore have to conclude... am forced do conclude, that
> "democracy" is only considered a good thing if it makes politically
> correct choices. Otherwise its some sort of "false consciousness."
>
> So anyway, the topic of this thread is what it is. If you don't like it,
> you don't have to read it.
>
> --
> --Scott
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
>>> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of
>>> these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>>
>> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and
>> top posting to Usenet groups.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>
>
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 18:44:38
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: P-P-P-P-PLONK

rocketman wrote:

> Wrong newsgroup, pal. Take it elsewhere. Don't bother responding; I won't
> see it.

But how do you feel about integrated headsets and ISO 587-mm (700D) tires?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 23 Feb 2005 07:20:01
From: skip
Subject: Re: P-P-P-P-PLONK

"rocketman" <rocketman@bikerider.com > wrote in message
news:z_USd.43912$tl3.20581@attbi_s02...
> Wrong newsgroup, pal. Take it elsewhere. Don't bother responding; I
> won't see it.
>
> R
>
> <p-p-p-plonkage>
>
> "Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:3827q1F5gsjk2U1@individual.net...
>> I'm curious as to why you didn't attempt to redirect or hijack the thread
>> at a point where someone on the left had made some lame observation about
>> blood for oil, or something? That doesn't seem to catch your attention.
>>
>> My point is very simple, and I thought rather nonpartisan. I can,
>> frankly, find no reason why the notion of national sovereignty seems so
>> sacrosanct to the left only when the "intruder" is a democratic regime
>> change, but they apparently haven't raised much of a stink over the fate
>> of Lebanon all these years, which is, even by their standards, an
>> illegitimate occupation without even the pretense of national
>> determination. I've watched various people on the left and it seems to
>> me that although a very small minority are consistent on this sort of
>> issue (Kouchner and Hitchens, for example) most are not. Now it seems to
>> me that if democracy were really as important to the Democracy Now" folks
>> as they claim, they'd be able to tolerate the kind of intervention by the
>> US that deposes a tyrant, at least to the point that the citizens of that
>> country make what appears to be a reasonably uncoerced choice.
>>
>> But they don't.
>>
>> And I therefore have to conclude... am forced do conclude, that
>> "democracy" is only considered a good thing if it makes politically
>> correct choices. Otherwise its some sort of "false consciousness."
>>
>> So anyway, the topic of this thread is what it is. If you don't like it,
>> you don't have to read it.
>>
>> --
>> --Scott
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
>>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism
>>>> it's doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any
>>>> of these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>>>
>>> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and
>>> top posting to Usenet groups.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Fortunately or unfortunately, however you might view it, I find myself
slipping into this schadedfreude thing by having warm fuzzy feelings about
the misery of
Rocketman/Sherman.

skip

skip

Date: 23 Feb 2005 20:07:59
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: P-P-P-P-PLONK

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:pPWdnSICD49wH4HfRVn-3A@giganews.com...
>
> "rocketman" <rocketman@bikerider.com> wrote in message
> news:z_USd.43912$tl3.20581@attbi_s02...
>> Wrong newsgroup, pal. Take it elsewhere. Don't bother responding; I
>> won't see it.
>>
>> R
>>
>> <p-p-p-plonkage>
>>
>> "Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:3827q1F5gsjk2U1@individual.net...
>>> I'm curious as to why you didn't attempt to redirect or hijack the
>>> thread at a point where someone on the left had made some lame
>>> observation about blood for oil, or something? That doesn't seem to
>>> catch your attention.
>>>
>>> My point is very simple, and I thought rather nonpartisan. I can,
>>> frankly, find no reason why the notion of national sovereignty seems so
>>> sacrosanct to the left only when the "intruder" is a democratic regime
>>> change, but they apparently haven't raised much of a stink over the fate
>>> of Lebanon all these years, which is, even by their standards, an
>>> illegitimate occupation without even the pretense of national
>>> determination. I've watched various people on the left and it seems to
>>> me that although a very small minority are consistent on this sort of
>>> issue (Kouchner and Hitchens, for example) most are not. Now it seems
>>> to me that if democracy were really as important to the Democracy Now"
>>> folks as they claim, they'd be able to tolerate the kind of intervention
>>> by the US that deposes a tyrant, at least to the point that the citizens
>>> of that country make what appears to be a reasonably uncoerced choice.
>>>
>>> But they don't.
>>>
>>> And I therefore have to conclude... am forced do conclude, that
>>> "democracy" is only considered a good thing if it makes politically
>>> correct choices. Otherwise its some sort of "false consciousness."
>>>
>>> So anyway, the topic of this thread is what it is. If you don't like
>>> it, you don't have to read it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> --Scott
>>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>> news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
>>>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism
>>>>> it's doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any
>>>>> of these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>>>>
>>>> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and
>>>> top posting to Usenet groups.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> Fortunately or unfortunately, however you might view it, I find myself
> slipping into this schadedfreude thing by having warm fuzzy feelings about
> the misery of
> Rocketman/Sherman.

Heh. Instead of ignoring a thread he views as off topic Tom feels the
compulsion, for some reason, to post meaninglees, but on topic,
non-sequitors. As though the meaning of a post is, irrelevant.

Political correctness has three components:

a. An impossibly narrow scope of what are permissible topics for discussion.
(i.e. even mentioning that men are better at math, or that the ends of the
IQ distribution are predominantly male, is, by definition, not only not open
to discussion, but prima facie evidence of moral corruption).

b. Even this narrow range is centered on the irrelevant. (The "central"
question isn't what males and females prefer, or what the relative
distribution of their gifts actually is like, but how successfully we can
jam the sciences with women for the sake of some abstract concept of
"equality.")

c. Impossibly harsh consequences that are justified by the obvious
impropriety of violating a. and b.. (Larry Summers, and more importantly
any other faculty who fail to toe the PC line, must not only suffer the
removal of their source of livelihood, but as much humiliation and disgrace
as can possibly be heaped on.)

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Comrade, this is all politically incorrect. Sorry.

>
> skip
>
> skip
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 21:37:15
From: skip
Subject: Re: P-P-P-P-PLONK

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:384nnfF5li4c6U1@individual.net...
> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:pPWdnSICD49wH4HfRVn-3A@giganews.com...
>>
>> "rocketman" <rocketman@bikerider.com> wrote in message
>> news:z_USd.43912$tl3.20581@attbi_s02...
>>> Wrong newsgroup, pal. Take it elsewhere. Don't bother responding; I
>>> won't see it.
>>>
>>> R
>>>
>>> <p-p-p-plonkage>
>>>
>>> "Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:3827q1F5gsjk2U1@individual.net...
>>>> I'm curious as to why you didn't attempt to redirect or hijack the
>>>> thread at a point where someone on the left had made some lame
>>>> observation about blood for oil, or something? That doesn't seem to
>>>> catch your attention.
>>>>
>>>> My point is very simple, and I thought rather nonpartisan. I can,
>>>> frankly, find no reason why the notion of national sovereignty seems so
>>>> sacrosanct to the left only when the "intruder" is a democratic regime
>>>> change, but they apparently haven't raised much of a stink over the
>>>> fate of Lebanon all these years, which is, even by their standards, an
>>>> illegitimate occupation without even the pretense of national
>>>> determination. I've watched various people on the left and it seems to
>>>> me that although a very small minority are consistent on this sort of
>>>> issue (Kouchner and Hitchens, for example) most are not. Now it seems
>>>> to me that if democracy were really as important to the Democracy Now"
>>>> folks as they claim, they'd be able to tolerate the kind of
>>>> intervention by the US that deposes a tyrant, at least to the point
>>>> that the citizens of that country make what appears to be a reasonably
>>>> uncoerced choice.
>>>>
>>>> But they don't.
>>>>
>>>> And I therefore have to conclude... am forced do conclude, that
>>>> "democracy" is only considered a good thing if it makes politically
>>>> correct choices. Otherwise its some sort of "false consciousness."
>>>>
>>>> So anyway, the topic of this thread is what it is. If you don't like
>>>> it, you don't have to read it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> --Scott
>>>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:3821chF5gt3gaU1@individual.net...
>>>>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism
>>>>>> it's doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any
>>>>>> of these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>>>>>
>>>>> The real threats are integrated headsets, ISO 587-mm (700D) tires, and
>>>>> top posting to Usenet groups.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Fortunately or unfortunately, however you might view it, I find myself
>> slipping into this schadedfreude thing by having warm fuzzy feelings
>> about the misery of
>> Rocketman/Sherman.
>
> Heh. Instead of ignoring a thread he views as off topic Tom feels the
> compulsion, for some reason, to post meaninglees, but on topic,
> non-sequitors. As though the meaning of a post is, irrelevant.
>
> Political correctness has three components:
>
> a. An impossibly narrow scope of what are permissible topics for
> discussion. (i.e. even mentioning that men are better at math, or that the
> ends of the IQ distribution are predominantly male, is, by definition, not
> only not open to discussion, but prima facie evidence of moral
> corruption).
>
> b. Even this narrow range is centered on the irrelevant. (The "central"
> question isn't what males and females prefer, or what the relative
> distribution of their gifts actually is like, but how successfully we can
> jam the sciences with women for the sake of some abstract concept of
> "equality.")
>
> c. Impossibly harsh consequences that are justified by the obvious
> impropriety of violating a. and b.. (Larry Summers, and more importantly
> any other faculty who fail to toe the PC line, must not only suffer the
> removal of their source of livelihood, but as much humiliation and
> disgrace as can possibly be heaped on.)
>
> http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm
>
> Comrade, this is all politically incorrect. Sorry.
>
>>

Enjoyed the fredoneverything column. This guy goes out of his way to be
politically incorrect. Saying things such as "I'd just as soon have a
possum president of Harvard" of all things. Highly disparaging to possums
everywhere.

My suggestion is to recruit Kinky Friedman (of Kinky and the Texas Jew Boys
fame) to be president of Harvard, if it should turn out he doesn't get
elected Governor of Texas in their forthcoming election.

I am confident Kinky could handle the Harvard wussification issues. One of
the items on Kinky's platform is to eliminate political correctness in
Texas.
Kinky's comment about being Governor of Texas is, "How hard could that be?"

skip

P.S. Kinky is an ardent animal lover and vows to outlaw the declawing of
cats in Texas. So as you can see Texans have all kinds of reasons to get
Kinky. Check out the Kinkster here:
http://www.kinkyfriedman.com/about.html

Date: 22 Feb 2005 21:21:37
From: rocketman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Who do you know of that is "pro tyranny?"

For that matter, who is "pro abortion?"

(That last one is a trick question. Don't trip on it...)

LOL

R

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:381jf9F5hhfsgU1@individual.net...
> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of these
> other "wicked problems" that face us.
> --
> --Scott
> "G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:422219bc.6658574@hotforteacher.org...
>> <x-posted to ASA>
>>
>> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
>> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>> => jimmymac_4@yahoo.com <= wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>> Good Lord!
>>
>>
>>>What Zach is talking about should not be made light of. Check out
>>>these sobering and frightening websites. Even the fictional accout
>>>gives cause for concern.
>>>
>>>http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
>>
>> <snip other URL>
>>
>> This is a doomsday scenario. I hope someone ster than me can put my
>> mind at
>> rest and prove this scenario wrong.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -Graham
>>
>> Remove the snails to email
>>
>> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>> News==----
>> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
>> Newsgroups
>> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>> =----
>
>

Date: 22 Feb 2005 18:07:26
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

The Copperheads during the Civil War weren't really "pro-slavery," but the
effect of their policies would have been to extend the institution of
slavery more or less indefinitely. There are two things about the western
left that drives their politics. One is rage at the utter bankruptcy of the
socialist demonstration projects (and the relative success of the
demonstration projects for ket capitalism, especially in Chile and other
parts of the southern cone). The other is the conviction that
Islamo/Fascism will be easy to control once the US is out of the way.

The left, by default, is in favor of any policy that reduces tyranny as long
as it doen't redound to the credit of their political opposition, and it
gets a big yawn or worse if it does. Every. Single. Time.

By the way, here's what a friend of mine said recently about the origins of
the term "politically correct." I submit it because it bears some insight
into a rather devious for of "pro-tyranny."

<quote >
"Political Correctness," like all too many words, especially politically
charged words, is used imprecisely and tendentiously so that its meaning has
been lost and degraded. This phrase like other politically charged terms
such as "racism" and "sexual harassment." has almost been reduced to an
intellectually vacuous epithet.

Let me offer a definition that fits its origin in internal communist
politics and seems to apply to some core concerns. Picture this apochryphal
scene. It is 1937. A dozen people are seated around a large conference table
in Moscow. The chairman of the meeting has announced that collective farmers
will be permitted to cultivate their own private plots, such plots may be up
to 1/4 of an acre in size. At the end of the table one naive and intrepid
fellow raises his hand and says, "comrade chairman may not 1/3 of an acre be
preferable." The chairman responds "But comrade that would be 'politically
incorrect'" All eyes are lowered. At the next meeting the young
whipper-snapper is absent. He can be found in a salt mine in Siberia.

The story captures what I think are the three salient features at the core
of political rectitude. (1) a bizarrely narrow range of what is permitted to
be said on a particular issue; (2) the accepted discourse is centered at the
wrong spot; and (3) harsh consequences falling on those who cross the
border. A good recent illustration of this is the recent affair of Hans
Hoppe who was persecuted for telling his money and banking class that some
distinct groups of people have a tendency to save more than others and that
others save less and that among the latter group were homosexuals because
they tended not to have children.

To reduce the term political correctness to describe mere orthodoxy robs it
of its bite.</quote >

"rocketman" <rocketman@bikerider.com > wrote in message
news:BnNSd.42771$4q6.13762@attbi_s01...
> Who do you know of that is "pro tyranny?"
>
> For that matter, who is "pro abortion?"
>
> (That last one is a trick question. Don't trip on it...)
>
> LOL
>
> R
>
>
> "Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:381jf9F5hhfsgU1@individual.net...
>> If we can't agree that it's time to end tyranny and totalitarianism it's
>> doubtful that we'll ever be able to coordinate resolution of any of
>> these other "wicked problems" that face us.
>> --
>> --Scott
>> "G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:422219bc.6658574@hotforteacher.org...
>>> <x-posted to ASA>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
>>> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>>> => jimmymac_4@yahoo.com <= wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim,
>>> Good Lord!
>>>
>>>
>>>>What Zach is talking about should not be made light of. Check out
>>>>these sobering and frightening websites. Even the fictional accout
>>>>gives cause for concern.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
>>>
>>> <snip other URL>
>>>
>>> This is a doomsday scenario. I hope someone ster than me can put my
>>> mind at
>>> rest and prove this scenario wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -Graham
>>>
>>> Remove the snails to email
>>>
>>> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>>> News==----
>>> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
>>> Newsgroups
>>> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>>> =----
>>
>>
>
>

Date: 22 Feb 2005 18:42:37
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> The Copperheads during the Civil War weren't really "pro-slavery," but the
> effect of their policies would have been to extend the institution of
> slavery more or less indefinitely. There are two things about the western
> left that drives their politics. One is rage at the utter bankruptcy of the
> socialist demonstration projects (and the relative success of the
> demonstration projects for ket capitalism, especially in Chile and other
> parts of the southern cone). The other is the conviction that
> Islamo/Fascism will be easy to control once the US is out of the way....

I see you just can't help pissing on the newsgroup with your right-wing
opinions.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 22 Feb 2005 21:04:31
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Didn't start it, Ace.

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3821jmF5juacnU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> The Copperheads during the Civil War weren't really "pro-slavery," but
>> the effect of their policies would have been to extend the institution of
>> slavery more or less indefinitely. There are two things about the
>> western left that drives their politics. One is rage at the utter
>> bankruptcy of the socialist demonstration projects (and the relative
>> success of the demonstration projects for ket capitalism, especially
>> in Chile and other parts of the southern cone). The other is the
>> conviction that Islamo/Fascism will be easy to control once the US is out
>> of the way....
>
> I see you just can't help pissing on the newsgroup with your right-wing
> opinions.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 22 Feb 2005 20:35:56
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Didn't start it, Ace.

No, but you changed the subject from oil to taking potshots at those who
disagree with your OPINIONS on ket capitalism and US military
intervention in foreign countries.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 23 Feb 2005 15:08:55
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:382884F5h6suiU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Didn't start it, Ace.
>
> No, but you changed the subject from oil to taking potshots at those who
> disagree with your OPINIONS on ket capitalism and US military
> intervention in foreign countries.

Like I invented the notion that oil and US "imperialism" are related.

Bottom line, there are a set of tropes that the left always invokes whenever
they want to feel especially righteous, and that have no real empirical
basis. The first is that the Civil Rights Movement continues with all of
its old moral ferocity and that they're the lone guarantors against
backsliding into wanton racism, sexism, what-have-you. Another is that US
power is inherently dangerous to others and to the US itself. But a third
is the notion that they are the sole guardians of responsible environmental
policy, and that sanity involves acceptance of the global warming thesis as
well as the notion that real "sustainability" involves emulation of a
neolithic ethic about energy usage. These are all connected in the minds
and hearts of those on the left, and discussing one invariably leads to
discussion of others because they always lose the argument on empirical
grounds and need to change the subject to something that's more "obvious."
You might say I engaged in anticipatory retaliation.

Now, I'd really like to move into a discussion about Hunter S. Thompson, and
the accepted wisdom that he was so despondent over the resurgence of
conservatism that he offed himself. But it seems to me that we know of no
suicide note, and that for such a literary person to eschew such a note
seems uncharacteristic. So it's just barely possible that he did, in fact,
write a suicide note... and it didn't happen to be very politically correct,
so was squelched.

Pure speculation, of course. But my speculation is that the election in
Iraq led to a recognition that he had devoted most of his effort and
treasure to the wrong side of the debate, and that writing a Sartre-like
repudiation would have entailed the loss of nearly all of his friends, since
the withdrawal of friendship is about the only real power threat that
political correctness retains in an open society. But it can be weighty
indeed, in the midst of a personal crisis. It's a threat to be reckoned
with.

But again, that's all pure speculation, based on the observation that there
was no note as far as we know. It's at least equally likely that the note
was purely personal, and that his reason for suicide had more to do with his
physical health than any existential "naked lunch."

Yeah, it's off topic. This is an off topic thread, thanks to Zach. You can
talk about oil usage if you like.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 18:42:40
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...
> Pure speculation, of course. But my speculation is that the election in
> Iraq led to a recognition that he had devoted most of his effort and
> treasure to the wrong side of the debate....

I feel sorry for Iraqi chess players. See <http://sistani.org/ >.

However, His Eminence Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husayni Sistani has yet
to comment on the morality of recumbent bicycles.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 23 Feb 2005 19:46:19
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:384lvnF5ki9egU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Pure speculation, of course. But my speculation is that the election in
>> Iraq led to a recognition that he had devoted most of his effort and
>> treasure to the wrong side of the debate....
>
> I feel sorry for Iraqi chess players. See <http://sistani.org/>.
>
> However, His Eminence Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husayni Sistani has yet
> to comment on the morality of recumbent bicycles.

Shows what you know. In point of fact it's the rare Arab adult male who
would be caught alive or dead sitting on a bicycle of any kind. It would be
the modesty equivalent of walking around nude in public.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 19:06:17
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:384lvnF5ki9egU1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...
>>>Pure speculation, of course. But my speculation is that the election in
>>>Iraq led to a recognition that he had devoted most of his effort and
>>>treasure to the wrong side of the debate....
>>
>>I feel sorry for Iraqi chess players. See <http://sistani.org/>.
>>
>>However, His Eminence Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husayni Sistani has yet
>>to comment on the morality of recumbent bicycles.
>
>
> Shows what you know. In point of fact it's the rare Arab adult male who
> would be caught alive or dead sitting on a bicycle of any kind. It would be
> the modesty equivalent of walking around nude in public.

Yawn - I was simply bringing recumbent bicycles into the thread. I will
be shocked, however, if you can find a public comment by Sistani on
recumbent bicycles.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 23 Feb 2005 23:54:05
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:384nc0F5jgiqnU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:384lvnF5ki9egU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...
>>>>Pure speculation, of course. But my speculation is that the election in
>>>>Iraq led to a recognition that he had devoted most of his effort and
>>>>treasure to the wrong side of the debate....
>>>
>>>I feel sorry for Iraqi chess players. See <http://sistani.org/>.
>>>
>>>However, His Eminence Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Ali Husayni Sistani has yet
>>>to comment on the morality of recumbent bicycles.
>>
>>
>> Shows what you know. In point of fact it's the rare Arab adult male who
>> would be caught alive or dead sitting on a bicycle of any kind. It would
>> be the modesty equivalent of walking around nude in public.
>
> Yawn - I was simply bringing recumbent bicycles into the thread. I will be
> shocked, however, if you can find a public comment by Sistani on recumbent
> bicycles.

Golly Tom, I thought I *was* talking about bicycles, unless social attitudes
about bikes is off topic too. OK, so you're not actually interested in real
life attitudes about bikes by real life people. You were just... what?
Being snarky in a covert sort of way? Just how narrow *is* that keyhole
we're all supposed to be looking through with you?

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 23 Feb 2005 23:13:56
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Golly Tom, I thought I *was* talking about bicycles, unless social attitudes
> about bikes is off topic too. OK, so you're not actually interested in real
> life attitudes about bikes by real life people. You were just... what?
> Being snarky in a covert sort of way? Just how narrow *is* that keyhole
> we're all supposed to be looking through with you?

Alleging Hunter S. Thompson killed himself because elections were held
in Iraq has something to do with bicycles?

Try reading your own posts sometime. They are amazingly full of "I'm
right, your wrong" chest beating statements (declaring you are right
does not mean you are right, despite - some of us are inoculated to this
technique that certain politicians and pundits love so well). Then there
are the statements that indicate that you get vicarious thrills over the
US military killing foreigners. Hint: this virtual testosterone will not
make your bike go faster.

Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to
defecate on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back over
the fence into your yard.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 24 Feb 2005 16:29:17
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3855saF5jhs9aU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Golly Tom, I thought I *was* talking about bicycles, unless social
>> attitudes about bikes is off topic too. OK, so you're not actually
>> interested in real life attitudes about bikes by real life people. You
>> were just... what? Being snarky in a covert sort of way? Just how narrow
>> *is* that keyhole we're all supposed to be looking through with you?
>
> Alleging Hunter S. Thompson killed himself because elections were held in
> Iraq has something to do with bicycles?

The post you responded to with a "yawn" was about attitudes of Arab males
toward cycling.

>
> Try reading your own posts sometime. They are amazingly full of "I'm
> right, your wrong" chest beating statements (declaring you are right does
> not mean you are right, despite - some of us are inoculated to this
> technique that certain politicians and pundits love so well).

About Iraq, I *was* right. As for the chest-beating thing, that's entirely
in your head. I proposed a theory about Tompson's suicide, and also
acknowledged that it would well be incorrect. Just exactly how is that
"chest beating?" Hyperbole and imprecision don't make you right, either.

> Then there are the statements that indicate that you get vicarious thrills
> over the US military killing foreigners. Hint: this virtual testosterone
> will not make your bike go faster.
>

I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The more we
kill, the better. As for "vicarious thrill" that's just a lot of horse
pucky. And what's this dudu about lumping all foreigners in with
Islamo/Fascist terrorists, as though that makes the slightest bit of sense
outside of Michael Moore's fat head?

> Metaphorically speaking, if you bring your dog over to my lawn to defecate
> on it, I will put on rubber gloves and toss the feces back over the fence
> into your yard.

And this is related to your "yawn" how, exactly?

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 18:17:39
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The more we
> kill, the better....

EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 24 Feb 2005 20:23:32
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>> more we kill, the better....
>
> EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
> OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS ALLIED
> TO THE UNITED STATES?

This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars of
soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye on what
Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two generations. What
sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing on?

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 20:07:26
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>more we kill, the better....
>>
>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS ALLIED
>>TO THE UNITED STATES?
>
>
> This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars of
> soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye on what
> Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two generations. What
> sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing on?

When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
Never, of course. (But of course Castro is still better than the fascist
Battista would have been.)

Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
have never taken. I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing
puppies and kittens, Mr. Talkington?" And it would be just as ridiculous.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 24 Feb 2005 21:48:53
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387fajF5lf9cdU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>>more we kill, the better....
>>>
>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>>
>>
>> This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>> of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>> on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>> generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing
>> on?
>
> When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
> Never, of course.

I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
accurate.

> (But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would have
> been.)

I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of magnitude
greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that regime people
were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although authoritarian
regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways don't hold a candle
to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently published book on the
Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his excesses were never equated
with those of Hitler was that the left was embarassed by them, and there
were few pictures to hold their feet to the fire. But as everyone knows
Stalin murdered five times as many people as Hitler. (And no, this doesn't
excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big difference.)

>
> Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
> have never taken.

Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind eye
on Castro, and you've proved my point.

> I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
> kittens, Mr. Talkington?"

Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.

> And it would be just as ridiculous.

I accused you of precisely what you've done, in this very post. Nothing
more.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 21:09:55
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:387fajF5lf9cdU1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be. The
>>>>>more we kill, the better....
>>>>
>>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>>>
>>>
>>>This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>>>of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>>>on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>>>generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're standing
>>>on?
>>
>>When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
>>Never, of course.
>
>
> I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
> accurate.
>
>
>>(But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would have
>>been.)
>
>
> I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of magnitude
> greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that regime people
> were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although authoritarian
> regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways don't hold a candle
> to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently published book on the
> Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his excesses were never equated
> with those of Hitler was that the left was embarassed by them, and there
> were few pictures to hold their feet to the fire. But as everyone knows
> Stalin murdered five times as many people as Hitler. (And no, this doesn't
> excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big difference.)

And exactly how was the Soviet Union "communist"? The number of worker
run enterprises was approximately zero. And if all on the political left
are equivalent to Stalin, then all on the political right must logically
be equivalent to Hitler. Like than comparison?

There is much more to it then the number of people murdered. Under the
fascist regimes such as Battista's, life is a living hell for most
people, as they are effectively economic slaves worked relentlessly by
the elite in return for bare subsistence wages. And just where could
they emigrate to where they would have a better life?

>>Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
>>have never taken.
>
>
> Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind eye
> on Castro, and you've proved my point.

I am not your friend.

Why blind eye? By implication, I stated that Castro's human rights
record left much to be desired. Do you disagree with that, and believe
Castro is a human rights exemplar?

>>I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
>>kittens, Mr. Talkington?"
>
>
> Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.

So you believe the puppies and kittens should be killed in a manner that
causes a great deal of pain. I am glad we clarified this matter.

--
Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 25 Feb 2005 00:21:54
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

By the way, you can download the Freedom House Civil and Political scores
yourself, here:

http://www.freedomhouse.org/ratings/index.htm

Note that Russia has been downgraded recently from "partly free" to "not
free."

--
--Scott
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387ivqF581snfU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387fajF5lf9cdU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be.
>>>>>>The more we kill, the better....
>>>>>
>>>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>>>>of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>>>>on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>>>>generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're
>>>>standing on?
>>>
>>>When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
>>>Never, of course.
>>
>>
>> I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
>> accurate.
>>
>>
>>>(But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would
>>>have been.)
>>
>>
>> I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of
>> magnitude greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that
>> regime people were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although
>> authoritarian regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways
>> don't hold a candle to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently
>> published book on the Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his
>> excesses were never equated with those of Hitler was that the left was
>> embarassed by them, and there were few pictures to hold their feet to the
>> fire. But as everyone knows Stalin murdered five times as many people as
>> Hitler. (And no, this doesn't excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big
>> difference.)
>
> And exactly how was the Soviet Union "communist"? The number of worker run
> enterprises was approximately zero. And if all on the political left are
> equivalent to Stalin, then all on the political right must logically be
> equivalent to Hitler. Like than comparison?
>
> There is much more to it then the number of people murdered. Under the
> fascist regimes such as Battista's, life is a living hell for most people,
> as they are effectively economic slaves worked relentlessly by the elite
> in return for bare subsistence wages. And just where could they emigrate
> to where they would have a better life?
>
>>>Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
>>>have never taken.
>>
>>
>> Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind
>> eye on Castro, and you've proved my point.
>
> I am not your friend.
>
> Why blind eye? By implication, I stated that Castro's human rights record
> left much to be desired. Do you disagree with that, and believe Castro is
> a human rights exemplar?
>
>>>I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
>>>kittens, Mr. Talkington?"
>>
>>
>> Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.
>
> So you believe the puppies and kittens should be killed in a manner that
> causes a great deal of pain. I am glad we clarified this matter.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell
>
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 00:18:57
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387ivqF581snfU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387fajF5lf9cdU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:3878soF5h70deU2@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>...I approve of killing terrorists. No apologies. Never will be.
>>>>>>The more we kill, the better....
>>>>>
>>>>>EVEN WHEN THE TERRORISTS ARE MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY, OFFICIAL COVERT
>>>>>OPERATIONS ORGANIZATIONS AND POLICE OF THE UNITED STATES OR NATIONS
>>>>>ALLIED TO THE UNITED STATES?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This is quite silly. You worry about electrical wires connected to bars
>>>>of soap, lapdances, and panties worn as hats whlise casting a blind eye
>>>>on what Castro has done to democratic dissidents in Cuba for two
>>>>generations. What sort of moral high ground do you think you're
>>>>standing on?
>>>
>>>When did I even claim Castro was a model of human rights leadership?
>>>Never, of course.
>>
>>
>> I said you cast a blind eye, which your very next statement reveals as
>> accurate.
>>
>>
>>>(But of course Castro is still better than the fascist Battista would
>>>have been.)
>>
>>
>> I rest my case. Castro has killed at a rate at least an order of
>> magnitude greater than Batista, not to mention the fact that during that
>> regime people were free to emigrate. Not even a close call. Although
>> authoritarian regimes of the right can be brutal, their murdering ways
>> don't hold a candle to the record of tyrannies of the left. A recently
>> published book on the Stalinist era speculates that the reason why his
>> excesses were never equated with those of Hitler was that the left was
>> embarassed by them, and there were few pictures to hold their feet to the
>> fire. But as everyone knows Stalin murdered five times as many people as
>> Hitler. (And no, this doesn't excuse Nazism, it indicts the left. Big
>> difference.)
>
> And exactly how was the Soviet Union "communist"? The number of worker run
> enterprises was approximately zero. And if all on the political left are
> equivalent to Stalin, then all on the political right must logically be
> equivalent to Hitler. Like than comparison?

This is the new razzle dazzle, I guess. None of the xist-inspired
totalitarian kleptocracies were "true xism." The notions of right and
left that you presume are meaningful simply aren't. To the modern left John
Locke is on the political "right," and logically part of a continuum leading
to fascism and nazism.

The fact is that fascism and nazism are ideologies of the left, not the
right. They diverge from Hegel in a slightly different direction than did
x, but they're only "right" in the lexicon of the left. They're all
terms of convenience. The "third way" states of continental Europe have a
chronic unemployment rate of around 10%, and it'd be higher if they weren't
free-riding on the US military. But I'm not too worried that they'll become
totalitarian, because they're probably not going to attempt "true xism."
But we'll see. I could be wrong.
>
> There is much more to it then the number of people murdered. Under the
> fascist regimes such as Battista's, life is a living hell for most people,
> as they are effectively economic slaves worked relentlessly by the elite
> in return for bare subsistence wages. And just where could they emigrate
> to where they would have a better life?

Again, we supported these regimes as a result of a misguided concept of
stability and because we know that the xist "alternative" was worse. But
watch how quickly Cuba changes once that old theif is dead.

>
>>>Typical right-wing tactic - accuse people of supporting a position they
>>>have never taken.
>>
>>
>> Er, precisely what *you* did, my friend. I just said you cast a blind
>> eye on Castro, and you've proved my point.
>
> I am not your friend.

Didn't mean to confuse you. It's just a figure of speech, buddy. Er, Elmo.
>
> Why blind eye? By implication, I stated that Castro's human rights record
> left much to be desired.

How much? Again, according to Freedom House it's one of the ten most
repressive regimes on earth. Yeah, that leaves a little to be desired.

> Do you disagree with that, and believe Castro is a human rights exemplar?

I disagree with it only in the sense that it's "praising with faint
damnation." Now, if you'd said Saudi Arabia is worse I'd have been
compelled to agree outright. Although, truth is, it's not much worse.

Oops, I just checked the scores I had for 2001 and Cuba (at 6.88) was the
fifth most repressive regime on earth, after Iraq, Burma, N. Korea and
Afghanistan in that order. It just barely beat out Saudi Arabia which was
sixth, at 6.83. This is a computed composite score which rescales the press
freedom index (normally scaled at 0 to 100). I haven't done that rescaled
composite recently, but Freedom House has a composite score for civil and
political freedom (excluding press freedom) for independent countries as
they enter 2005, and Cuba and Saudi Arabia are tied at 7 (the worst score
you can get) along with Turkmenistan, Syria, Sudan, N. Korea, Libya and
Burma. Note that Afghanistan and Iraq are no longer in that category.

And it's sure nice to have a burgeoning democracy right next door to a
couple of those regimes, to put a little pressure in the right direction
don't you think?

I mean, seriously.

I honestly don't think you need to give up your principles to be on the
right side of history, on this stuff. But I could be wrong.

>
>>>I could just as well ask. "Why do you support crushing puppies and
>>>kittens, Mr. Talkington?"
>>
>>
>> Ah well, because there are just too many puppies and kittens, of course.
>
> So you believe the puppies and kittens should be killed in a manner that
> causes a great deal of pain. I am glad we clarified this matter.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell
>
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 18:32:27
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Date: 24 Feb 2005 18:14:51
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....

SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
YOURSELF THE WINNER?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 24 Feb 2005 20:30:43
From: skip
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>
> SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
> SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
> YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD knowing
what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the war what
would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common sense
would indicate almost none.

After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage, and
then leave?

skip

Date: 24 Feb 2005 23:53:54
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:26:26
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the same
error. Here is the error message, verbatim:

Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R. ain't
dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server: 'news.individual.net',
Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9

But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.

--
--Scott
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:uMydndA725LYIIPfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
>
> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>> > Freewheeling wrote:
>> >
>> >> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>> >
>> > SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE
>> > THAT
>> > SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU
>> > DECLARED
>> > YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tom Sherman - Earth
>> >
>>
>> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war
>> movies,
>> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I
>> know
>> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
>> advantage is the sneak attack.
>
> That has to be one of the funniest things I've read all week
>
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 00:36:42
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the same
> error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
>
> Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R. ain't
> dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server: 'news.individual.net',
> Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
> Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
>
> But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.

Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I
had to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having
trouble with.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 04:10:20
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387v3fF5bgv2hU2@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the
>> same error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
>>
>> Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R. ain't
>> dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server: 'news.individual.net',
>> Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
>> Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
>>
>> But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.
>
> Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
> Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I had
> to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having trouble
> with.

I tried replying to one of my own messages, and the auto-quote seemed to
work OK. Anyway, if you get this reply that the problem resolved itself
somehow.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 07:32:42
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387v3fF5bgv2hU2@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the
>> same error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
>>
>> Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R. ain't
>> dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server: 'news.individual.net',
>> Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
>> Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
>>
>> But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.
>
> Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
> Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I had
> to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having trouble
> with.

I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to your
posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special.

And again, I don't have the problem using my ISPs NNTP server. Just the
Berlin server.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:10:56
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:387v3fF5bgv2hU2@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the
>>>same error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
>>>
>>>Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R. ain't
>>>dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server: 'news.individual.net',
>>>Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
>>>Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
>>>
>>>But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.
>>
>>Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
>>Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I had
>>to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having trouble
>>with.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to your
> posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special....

There is your problem: use of a micro$oft product for Internet and email.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:21:31
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a0cgF5kmn9sU3@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> > news:387v3fF5bgv2hU2@individual.net...
> >
> >>Freewheeling wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the
> >>>same error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
> >>>
> >>>Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R.
ain't
> >>>dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server:
'news.individual.net',
> >>>Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
> >>>Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
> >>>
> >>>But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.
> >>
> >>Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
> >>Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I
had
> >>to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having trouble
> >>with.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to
your
> > posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special....
>
> There is your problem: use of a micro$oft product for Internet and email.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth

I just migrated to Firefox to replace IE however in my opinion Thunderbird
isn't as good as Outlook Express, especially for newsgroup browsing

(now running away from a flood of open-source advocates/nutcases)

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:24:08
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:QuWdnRlbhNZwU4LfRVn-tA@comcast.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a0cgF5kmn9sU3@individual.net...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>> > "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> > news:387v3fF5bgv2hU2@individual.net...
>> >
>> >>Freewheeling wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Nope, I tried to post a reply to Tom's most recent message and got the
>> >>>same error. Here is the error message, verbatim:
>> >>>
>> >>>Outlook Express could not post your message. Subject 'Re: A.R.B.R.
> ain't
>> >>>dead yet??????', Account: 'A Berlin News', Server:
> 'news.individual.net',
>> >>>Protocol: NNTP, Server Response: '441 Line 3 too long', Port: 119,
>> >>>Secure(SSL): No, Server Error: 441, Error Number: 0x800CCCA9
>> >>>
>> >>>But I apparently don't get this error replying to anyone else.
>> >>
>> >>Your newsreader failed to honor the signature separator in my posts.
>> >>Therefore, when I replied no quoted text automatically appeared, and I
> had
>> >>to copy and past manually. Those are the posts you are having trouble
>> >>with.
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to
> your
>> > posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special....
>>
>> There is your problem: use of a micro$oft product for Internet and email.
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman � Earth
>
> I just migrated to Firefox to replace IE however in my opinion Thunderbird
> isn't as good as Outlook Express, especially for newsgroup browsing

I agree. Thunderbird also frequently locks up, so I rarely use it anymore.
And Agent is a pain in the butt to use, but it's what all the diehards swear
by, of course. There are some nice features in Agent though. For instance,
if you only want to quote part of a message in your reply, just block the
text you want to keep before hitting "follow up" and it'll drop everything
else. But I've never been very comfortable with the way it handles "k as
read." I'm never sure what the hell it's going to do, when I retrieve new
headers, and you have to edit so many parameters just to get that one thing
straight that I finally gave up. I keep it up to date, but almost never use
it. (Plus, you still can't have more than one "account," which is just
silly for such a "full featured" news reader.)

>
> (now running away from a flood of open-source advocates/nutcases)
>
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:53:35
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > Freewheeling <= wrote:

>
>I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to your
>posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special.
>
>And again, I don't have the problem using my ISPs NNTP server. Just the
>Berlin server.

http://news.individual.net/faq.php#2.9

2.9 My posting is rejected with a "line too long" message. What do I have to
change?
The exact error message is "441 Line n too long" with "n" indicating the
line number of your entire posting (including the header) that violates the
Internet standard's length restriction. The problem will most likely be the
"References" line which happens with some newsreaders when you reply to a
posting that already refers back to numerous previous articles.

You will either have to switch to a newsreader that observes the standards or
edit the line that causes the problem manually.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 04:06:45
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

G.

Thanks.

I suppose I could start using Agent Pro again, but I don't like it very much
for all the glowing reviews. It's slow, complicated, and the behavior it
goes through in terms of king messaged read, etc., in very difficult to
set. I also can't read the icons very well.

Anyway, it appears that this works now.

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:4230d969.43141504@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm not sure what you mean by "signature separator." When I reply to your
>>posts I get automatic quotes. I'm just using IE6. Nothing special.
>>
>>And again, I don't have the problem using my ISPs NNTP server. Just the
>>Berlin server.
>
>
> http://news.individual.net/faq.php#2.9
>
> 2.9 My posting is rejected with a "line too long" message. What do I have
> to
> change?
> The exact error message is "441 Line n too long" with "n" indicating the
> line number of your entire posting (including the header) that violates
> the
> Internet standard's length restriction. The problem will most likely be
> the
> "References" line which happens with some newsreaders when you reply to a
> posting that already refers back to numerous previous articles.
>
> You will either have to switch to a newsreader that observes the standards
> or
> edit the line that causes the problem manually.
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:21:29
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to any
of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a message that
"line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete everything in the
message.

Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies to
the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently. Very
strange.

--
--Scott
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:uMydndA725LYIIPfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
>
> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>> > Freewheeling wrote:
>> >
>> >> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>> >
>> > SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE
>> > THAT
>> > SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU
>> > DECLARED
>> > YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tom Sherman - Earth
>> >
>>
>> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war
>> movies,
>> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I
>> know
>> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
>> advantage is the sneak attack.
>
> That has to be one of the funniest things I've read all week
>
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 00:34:05
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to any
> of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a message that
> "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete everything in the
> message.
>
> Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies to
> the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently. Very
> strange.

Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it
is messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying
to your posts.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 25 Feb 2005 07:27:16
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387uujF5bgv2hU1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to
>> any of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a
>> message that "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete
>> everything in the message.
>>
>> Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies to
>> the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently. Very
>> strange.
>
> Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it is
> messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying to
> your posts.

I don't follow you. This just started today, and it apparently only applies
to the U. of Berlin server. And it's only relevant to replies to your
posts.

What do you mean by "signature separators?"
>
> --
> Tom Sherman � Earth
>

Date: 25 Feb 2005 19:09:44
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:387uujF5bgv2hU1@individual.net...
>
>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to
>>>any of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a
>>>message that "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete
>>>everything in the message.
>>>
>>>Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies to
>>>the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently. Very
>>>strange.
>>
>>Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it is
>>messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying to
>>your posts.
>
>
> I don't follow you. This just started today, and it apparently only applies
> to the U. of Berlin server. And it's only relevant to replies to your
> posts.
>
> What do you mean by "signature separators?"
>
>>--
>>Tom Sherman ?Earth

Signature separator is "-- ". Your reply posts should not include the
"-- " or anything below it in the quoted area. This is standard Usenet
convention. As the above quoted material shows, your newsreader is out
of compliance.

--
Tom Sherman � Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 02:11:46
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:09:44 -0600, Tom Sherman
<tsherman@qconline.com > wrote:

>Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387uujF5bgv2hU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to
>>>>any of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a
>>>>message that "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete
>>>>everything in the message.
>>>>
>>>>Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies to
>>>>the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently. Very
>>>>strange.
>>>
>>>Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it is
>>>messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying to
>>>your posts.
>>
>>
>> I don't follow you. This just started today, and it apparently only applies
>> to the U. of Berlin server. And it's only relevant to replies to your
>> posts.
>>
>> What do you mean by "signature separators?"
>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>
>Signature separator is "-- ". Your reply posts should not include the
>"-- " or anything below it in the quoted area. This is standard Usenet
>convention. As the above quoted material shows, your newsreader is out
>of compliance.

I stand corrected. Forte' Agent apparently does observe the
convention. (This reply was done in Agent.) When I saw the signature
separator in the quoted text earlier, it must have already been
preceded by a " >" when I hit the "follow up" button. My mistake.

http://www.demosophia.com

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:01:57
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38a0a9F5kmn9sU2@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:387uujF5bgv2hU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply to
>>>>any of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a
>>>>message that "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete
>>>>everything in the message.
>>>>
>>>>Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies
>>>>to the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently.
>>>>Very strange.
>>>
>>>Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it is
>>>messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying to
>>>your posts.
>>
>>
>> I don't follow you. This just started today, and it apparently only
>> applies to the U. of Berlin server. And it's only relevant to replies to
>> your posts.
>>
>> What do you mean by "signature separators?"
>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>
> Signature separator is "-- ". Your reply posts should not include the "--
> " or anything below it in the quoted area. This is standard Usenet
> convention. As the above quoted material shows, your newsreader is out of
> compliance.

As I said, neither is the most recent version of Forte' Agent. And if Agent
doesn't comply, by default, it's not much of a standard.

>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:14:09
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Freewheeling" <email_at_bottomofpost@bigfoot.com > wrote in message
news:F9VTd.30928$uc.12541@trnddc01...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38a0a9F5kmn9sU2@individual.net...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>> news:387uujF5bgv2hU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, that's damned strange. I don't seem to be able to send a reply
>>>>>to any of Tom's messages, but the reply to this worked fine. I get a
>>>>>message that "line 3 is too long" replying to Tom, even if I delete
>>>>>everything in the message.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I'm not sure this applies to all of his messages, but it applies
>>>>>to the one posted at 10:30 and to another one posted more recently.
>>>>>Very strange.
>>>>
>>>>Try setting your newsreader so it recognizes signature separators - it
>>>>is messing up the quoting of anyone using a newsreader that is replying
>>>>to your posts.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't follow you. This just started today, and it apparently only
>>> applies to the U. of Berlin server. And it's only relevant to replies
>>> to your posts.
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "signature separators?"
>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Tom Sherman ?Earth
>>
>> Signature separator is "-- ". Your reply posts should not include the "--
>> " or anything below it in the quoted area. This is standard Usenet
>> convention. As the above quoted material shows, your newsreader is out of
>> compliance.
>
> As I said, neither is the most recent version of Forte' Agent. And if
> Agent doesn't comply, by default, it's not much of a standard.
>

Correction. Forte' Agent apparently does observe the convention, by
default. My bad.

Date: 26 Feb 2005 01:19:27
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > Freewheeling <= wrote:

>
>Correction. Forte' Agent apparently does observe the convention, by
>default. My bad.

I think if spend a little time getting to learn Agent you'll see it's not slow
at all, nor that complicated.

Hint -- instead of the 3-pane view I like the single pane view and use the tabs
to navigate "groups" "message list" and "messages". You can switch views by
hitting the "z" key (zoom).

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 15:44:15
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:42372267.43161322@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
>>
>>Correction. Forte' Agent apparently does observe the convention, by
>>default. My bad.
>
>
> I think if spend a little time getting to learn Agent you'll see it's not
> slow
> at all, nor that complicated.
>
>
> Hint -- instead of the 3-pane view I like the single pane view and use the
> tabs
> to navigate "groups" "message list" and "messages". You can switch views
> by
> hitting the "z" key (zoom).

I just gave up on it, after having tried it for a few months. I never used
any of the features anyway, and I could just never get it to behave the way
IE behaves, which seems just fine to me. It's intuitive, the icons aren't
confusing. And, of course, I can set up more than one account so that when
one server is acting up I can just switch to another. Plus there are a few
dedicated NNTP servers that I use. But I have Agent, if I ever get a yen to
try it again. And it does have a few nice features.
>
>
>
> --
>
> -Graham
>
> Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 01:05:58
From: G. Morgan
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
= > Freewheeling <= wrote:

>As I said, neither is the most recent version of Forte' Agent. And if Agent
>doesn't comply, by default, it's not much of a standard.

Yes it does!

X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
^^^^^^^^^^^^

I thought you said you tried Agent.

--

-Graham

Remove the snails to email

Date: 26 Feb 2005 09:29:47
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

G. Morgan wrote:

> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
>
>>As I said, neither is the most recent version of Forte' Agent. And if Agent
>>doesn't comply, by default, it's not much of a standard.
>
>
>
> Yes it does!
>
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Since Freewheeling is using Outhouse express, it is no wonder he has
Usenet compatibility problems.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Date: 26 Feb 2005 07:16:19
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"G. Morgan" <alarmprosnail@snailgmail.com > wrote in message
news:42361fa6.42456268@news.x-privat.org...
> Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Freewheeling <= wrote:
>
>>As I said, neither is the most recent version of Forte' Agent. And if
>>Agent
>>doesn't comply, by default, it's not much of a standard.
>
>
> Yes it does!

Right. I tried it on one post, but the signature separator I saw must have
already behind the quote k. If there's an unquoted signature separator,
it's "honored" by Agent. My mistake.

Date: 25 Feb 2005 01:18:31
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

This is a test.

--
--Scott
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:uMydndA725LYIIPfRVn-jw@comcast.com...
>
> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>> > Freewheeling wrote:
>> >
>> >> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>> >
>> > SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE
>> > THAT
>> > SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU
>> > DECLARED
>> > YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Tom Sherman - Earth
>> >
>>
>> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war
>> movies,
>> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I
>> know
>> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
>> advantage is the sneak attack.
>
> That has to be one of the funniest things I've read all week
>
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 23:24:58
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com > wrote in message
news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>> Freewheeling wrote:
>>
>>> ...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>
>> SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>> SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>> YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Earth
>>
>
> I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
> as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
> from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
> advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
> months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
> anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
> knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the
> war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common
> sense would indicate almost none.

The Left was rather inconsistent on this. One of their arguments was that
Saddam would loose some sort of doomsday weapon if we invaded (like
smallpox). As you say, it was clear that they had no *strategic* WMD at the
time, but almost everyone believed they had tactical weapons of some sort,
and were probably developing a strategic capability. Those were both
reasonable suppositions, and it would have been decidedly unreasonable to
assume otherwise given the stakes.

Consider that the main reason that we never felt compelled to attack the
Soviets was that we knew, because of the eavesdropping on the transatlantic
cable, exactly what their plans were at all times. Uncertainty is what
compels us to act, not certainty.

But as I said at the time, those weren't the only reasons to change that
regime. We knew that Saddam was bankrolling terrorists. We now also know
that there was an ongoing relationship with Al Qaeda, although there is
little evidence of outright collaboration. (But since it was Osama who was
seeking collaboration, there was also no good reason to assume that a
collaboration wouldn't occur sooner or later.)

The priy reason to change regimes, however, was to start a counter-wave
that opposed the "vanguard" of the Salafist totalitarians. Absent a
vanguard to oppose their vanguard, the only thing standing in their way was
a few authoritarian regimes that, every day, gave renewed justification for
their movement. Paul Berman wrote a book about this, and it was always job
one from my perspective. Had the Democrats proposed it, along with a plan
(note that Bush never did actually have a plan, just an idea) I'd have voted
for them. So would a lot of others.

But the fact is that because the Democrats have been so heavily influenced
by their left wing they've been tone deaf on this issue. And they still
are, as far as I can tell.

>
> After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
> search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
> sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
> and then leave?

I'll tell you the truth, and I've said it before, as far as I'm concerned
both the oil and the WMD might as well have been excuses for doing the right
thing. Assuming we weren't about to do the right thing for the right
reasons, we might as well do it for the wrong reasons. The important thing
is that the freedom vanguard now has a foothold. And that really *is* the
important thing.

Honest, Tom. It's ultimately the only thing that matters.

Wars aren't won by the side that makes no mistakes. They're won by the side
that makes the fewest mistakes.

>
> skip
>
>

Date: 24 Feb 2005 22:59:31
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

Freewheeling wrote:

> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
> news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>
>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>
>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>
>>
>>I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war movies,
>>as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick. What I know
>>from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with a huge
>>advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6 to 8
>>months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to me
>>anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
>>knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to the
>>war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD? Common
>>sense would indicate almost none.
>
>
> The Left was rather inconsistent on this. One of their arguments was that
> Saddam would loose some sort of doomsday weapon if we invaded (like
> smallpox). As you say, it was clear that they had no *strategic* WMD at the
> time, but almost everyone believed they had tactical weapons of some sort,
> and were probably developing a strategic capability. Those were both
> reasonable suppositions, and it would have been decidedly unreasonable to
> assume otherwise given the stakes.
>
> Consider that the main reason that we never felt compelled to attack the
> Soviets was that we knew, because of the eavesdropping on the transatlantic
> cable, exactly what their plans were at all times. Uncertainty is what
> compels us to act, not certainty.

This is why you should always take blind corners and traverse
intersections with poor sight distances at full speed.

> But as I said at the time, those weren't the only reasons to change that
> regime. We knew that Saddam was bankrolling terrorists. We now also know
> that there was an ongoing relationship with Al Qaeda, although there is
> little evidence of outright collaboration. (But since it was Osama who was
> seeking collaboration, there was also no good reason to assume that a
> collaboration wouldn't occur sooner or later.)

Osama bin Laden used to cooperate with the CIA, and was one of Reagan's
"freedom fighters". Should we have bombed the CIA offices and the Reagan
ranch?

> The priy reason to change regimes, however, was to start a counter-wave
> that opposed the "vanguard" of the Salafist totalitarians. Absent a
> vanguard to oppose their vanguard, the only thing standing in their way was
> a few authoritarian regimes that, every day, gave renewed justification for
> their movement. Paul Berman wrote a book about this, and it was always job
> one from my perspective. Had the Democrats proposed it, along with a plan
> (note that Bush never did actually have a plan, just an idea) I'd have voted
> for them. So would a lot of others.
>
> But the fact is that because the Democrats have been so heavily influenced
> by their left wing they've been tone deaf on this issue. And they still
> are, as far as I can tell.

Democrats heavily influenced by the left wing? Is that why most of them
voted for the conquest of Iraq. Bahahahahahaha! Get real!

>>After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
>>search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
>>sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
>>and then leave?
>
>
> I'll tell you the truth, and I've said it before, as far as I'm concerned
> both the oil and the WMD might as well have been excuses for doing the right
> thing. Assuming we weren't about to do the right thing for the right
> reasons, we might as well do it for the wrong reasons. The important thing
> is that the freedom vanguard now has a foothold. And that really *is* the
> important thing.

The freedom to obey the Fatwahs of Sistani? Freedom like the US brought
to Iran in 1953 when the firm of Dulles and Dulles engineered a coup
against the democratic government of Mossadegh and installed the
despotic Reza Pahlavi to the throne? Or the freedom that Dulles and
Dulles brought to Guatemala, Kissinger and Nixon brought to Chile, or
that Kissinger and Ford brought to East Timor? Not to mention the
freedom the US supports in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, and the
former Soviet states in Central Asia.

> Honest, Tom. It's ultimately the only thing that matters....

No, the only thing that matters is power. Great wealth by itself is not
enough, having much more than others and dominating them is what counts.

> Wars aren't won by the side that makes no mistakes. They're won by the side
> that makes the fewest mistakes.

So far the neo-cons are following bin Laden's game plan more closely
that he could have believed possible. Every Iraqi and Palestinian death
and injury at the hands of the US military and IDF, every house
destroyed and tree uprooted by the same forces, every new Israeli
settlement in the West Bank, and every report of torture, violation of
human rights, and murder from Guantonomo Bay, Abu Ghraib, Bahgram, and
Diego Garcia, and every person sent by the US to a client state to be
tortured is a political victory for bin Laden.

--
Tom Sherman � Pissing Contest Hell

Date: 25 Feb 2005 07:22:56
From: Freewheeling
Subject: Re: A.R.B.R. ain't dead yet??????

"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:387pd8F5im9h1U1@individual.net...
> Freewheeling wrote:
>
>> "skip" <skip@qualitycycles.com> wrote in message
>> news:FY-dnbYCDP1SEIPfRVn-hQ@giganews.com...
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3878nhF5h70deU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>>>Freewheeling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>...About Iraq, I *was* right....
>>>>
>>>>SO WHERE ARE ALL THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION YOU WERE SO SURE THAT
>>>>SADDAM HUSSEIN HAD - WASN'T THAT ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WHERE YOU DECLARED
>>>>YOURSELF THE WINNER?
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Tom Sherman - Earth
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm not a military scientist, but I have seen a lot of old B&W war
>>>movies, as well as the Lord of Rings trilogy, and the Achilles flick.
>>>What I know from all this is that one element of warfare that comes with
>>>a huge advantage is the sneak attack. We went back and forth for about 6
>>>to 8 months on the lead up to Iraq war before going over there. Seems to
>>>me anyone with any sense at all would have done something with the WMD
>>>knowing what was coming. After all the public discourse leading up to
>>>the war what would have been a reasonable expectation for finding WMD?
>>>Common sense would indicate almost none.
>>
>>
>> The Left was rather inconsistent on this. One of their arguments was
>> that Saddam would loose some sort of doomsday weapon if we invaded (like
>> smallpox). As you say, it was clear that they had no *strategic* WMD at
>> the time, but almost everyone believed they had tactical weapons of some
>> sort, and were probably developing a strategic capability. Those were
>> both reasonable suppositions, and it would have been decidedly
>> unreasonable to assume otherwise given the stakes.
>>
>> Consider that the main reason that we never felt compelled to attack the
>> Soviets was that we knew, because of the eavesdropping on the
>> transatlantic cable, exactly what their plans were at all times.
>> Uncertainty is what compels us to act, not certainty.
>
> This is why you should always take blind corners and traverse
> intersections with poor sight distances at full speed.

Wrong analogy. And that's why you got the issue wrong. But rather than
give another lecture and Type I and Type II errors, just read this, on
"acting under conditions of uncertainty:"

http://mypetjawa.blogspot.com/2004_03_21_mypetjawa_archive.html#107997116054461622

>
>> But as I said at the time, those weren't the only reasons to change that
>> regime. We knew that Saddam was bankrolling terrorists. We now also
>> know that there was an ongoing relationship with Al Qaeda, although there
>> is little evidence of outright collaboration. (But since it was Osama
>> who was seeking collaboration, there was also no good reason to assume
>> that a collaboration wouldn't occur sooner or later.)
>
> Osama bin Laden used to cooperate with the CIA, and was one of Reagan's
> "freedom fighters". Should we have bombed the CIA offices and the Reagan
> ranch?

I don't actually have to point out why this is silly, do I? I mean, I don't
mind taking on an argument that has some serious observation behind it, but
this is you blowing smoke, not even vaguely interested in an actual
discussion or even an argument. I don't think we really need to worry a lot
about Bin Laden's Mom either, even though she was a lot closer to him that
either Saddam or Reagan. Context does count for something.

But the main point, which you inundated with as much smoke as you could
blow, is that Saddam was a staunch supporter of terrorist movements. And we
never supported Bin Laden or anyone else once they had a reputation for
terrorist tactics. (Meaning actual terrorism, and not the sort of
hyperbolic accusations the UN regularly throws at Israel.)

>
>> The priy reason to change regimes, however, was to start a
>> counter-wave that opposed the "vanguard" of the Salafist totalitarians.
>> Absent a vanguard to oppose their vanguard, the only thing standing in
>> their way was a few authoritarian regimes that, every day, gave renewed
>> justification for their movement. Paul Berman wrote a book about this,
>> and it was always job one from my perspective. Had the Democrats
>> proposed it, along with a plan (note that Bush never did actually have a
>> plan, just an idea) I'd have voted for them. So would a lot of others.
>>
>> But the fact is that because the Democrats have been so heavily
>> influenced by their left wing they've been tone deaf on this issue. And
>> they still are, as far as I can tell.
>
> Democrats heavily influenced by the left wing? Is that why most of them
> voted for the conquest of Iraq. Bahahahahahaha! Get real!

Voted for the conquest of Iraq? I wonder if Kerry agrees with that
characterization of his vote?
>
>>>After we chased Saddam and his goons off and did our unsuccessful WM D
>>>search what were we supposed to do? Apologize to Saddam, tell him we're
>>>sorry about the shoot out with his fiendish kids, repair all the damage,
>>>and then leave?
>>
>>
>> I'll tell you the truth, and I've said it before, as far as I'm concerned
>> both the oil and the WMD might as well have been excuses for doing the
>> right thing. Assuming we weren't about to do the right thing for the
>> right reasons, we might as well do it for the wrong reasons. The
>> important thing is that the freedom vanguard now has a foothold. And
>> that really *is* the important thing.
>
> The freedom to obey the Fatwahs of Sistani? Freedom like the US brought to
> Iran in 1953 when the firm of Dulles and Dulles engineered a cou