bicycle-forum.net Promoting biking discussion.

Main Date: 20 Jan 2006 18:28:20 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your money. I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in recumbents.... Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. Three weeks now and no response. So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, and now this dealer is incommunicado. WTF?! Are my expectations out of order? The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices for "good as new" bikes. Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. Or another LBS, in Manhattan, the Pedal Pushers...Evan over there is a nutcase. He's very charming and talkative like Peter Stull, but he's got a weird switch which somehow gets flipped and he'll go schizo on you with his passive-agressive act. One day I came in for a flat fix. While he was ringing up the sale, I noticed that my tire cap was gone and asked him where it was. He told me he put it outside the shop -- ??? I asked him what he meant. He nodded incredulously at me and repeated that he left my tire cap outside. Not only was it a bizzare enough thing if true, but doubly strange was the fact that it wasn't true, he never touched my bike until I brought it in. So I asked him how could that be...he responded that, duh, how? I used my hands, you know, hands, and unscrewed it and gently placed it on the sidewalk. So I'm just really mystified at what's going on -- him swiping my card and all all this time -- and I ask him why would he do that. He goes, well, where do you put your TV in your place? I'm like, what? Where do you put your TV, he repeated. I asked him why. He said that just as I have my reasons for placing things in my apartment, so he has his reasons for organizing his shop the way he does (actually, it's owned by a sour old fart, Roger, who's absent half the time -- another neurotic cat). Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? What's even more bizzare is that there was a line of customers behind me, every one non-plussed by the brief conversation. Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? Honestly, I don't get it. Now I'll have to contact the fella over in State College, PA, for the Velotechnik SMGTe. I am not awarding ~$3K (maybe even more, if I don't contain my newfound lust of Rohloff gearboxes and other exotica) to folks who don't care enough for it to return a goddamned phone call or e-mail!   Date: 02 Feb 2006 17:14:49 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Fritz M wrote: > Johnny Sunset wrote: > > Since I was the only > > rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet > > above the shoulders. The rest of the riders were soaked everywhere. > > And... what next? They all melted? Someone implied that recumbents would be worse than uprights to ride in the rain regarding the rider getting wet and dirty. I posted a real world example that indicated the opposite was the case. If there had been lightning, the upright riders would have worked as lightning rods for me. ;) -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley   Date: 02 Feb 2006 10:47:29 From: Fritz M Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Johnny Sunset wrote: > Since I was the only > rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet > above the shoulders. The rest of the riders were soaked everywhere. And... what next? They all melted? RFM   Date: 24 Jan 2006 11:33:46 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Jon Meinecke wrote: > > > In the end, you have choices. Less so, perhaps for purchasing a > non-commodity item like a recumbent bike. Vote with your > money. Indeed. But these are also established places which have been around for a long time (though NorthEast Recumbents is folding for good soon, and I've received private e-mail which concurs with my experience of Johannes there as being aloof and not particularly solicitous enough of a sale), and so I just had to vent and more importantly ask if there was something I was missing. And now I'm wondering...maybe they were turned off by the fact that I told them I was spending all that money?? Maybe, ironically enough, I think I'm doing them a favor by letting them know that I'm a sure sale, whereas they might be taking it like I'm trying to tell them to be on their best behavior since, lookit, I've got cash, whoopee...?? People are so fucking touchy...sheesh! > Bike shops, their owners, their clientele, have a 'personality', > a certain feel, a quirkiness, probably more so than other, > small to medium retail operations. I try to make allowances. > Overall, the LBS is a vanishing "breed",-- like the local > hardware store or family-run grocery. An LBS with > knowledge of recumbents is the exception. We have none > of such locally. Few small-to-medium kets do. Much as even I lament the "box-store phenomenon" -- giant blocks of Walts, Home Depots, and Borders -- I have to say that they practically never give you grief. Sure it's hard finding someone who speaks English -- it's a miracle to find staff at all if you have a quesiton -- but the price is the price, the policy is the policy, thank you very much. Experiences like mine make me think I could do with less "personality," if you know what I mean! > As for treatment of phone calls, I tend to agree that someone > waiting in the store should take precedence over someone > on the phone. Taking a number to call someone back seems > like the polite and efficient thing to do. If a seller doesn't get > back to you, well, indeed they don't want your business or > are less than competent. Sometimes it's like the Book of Job, I guess...there simply is no answer. I still find it hard to really think badly of these folks that piss me off, so perhaps it's simply just one of those things. Maybe my e-mail messages got lost in mountains of SPAM. Maybe their puppy really did just die. Etc. > I went into a LBS to purchase three standard chains to replace > my recumbent chain. I had questions about the relative merit > of various models. The shop owner didn't have three chains > of the same type in stock and couldn't offer any advice > why one chain might be better, though more expensive, > than another. He treated me rather abruptly and effectively > indicated he didn't want my business if I didn't just want to > buy something then and there. Oh yeah, I've had the treatment too -- "you want that or not?" What makes it all the more puzzling is that the store's empty! > I rode from that LBS to the other LBS, where the owner > grabbed a chain wear measurement tool and told me I > might as well continue with the chain I had for another > few thousand miles since it had worn to the point that > when I replaced the chain I would need to replace the > rear cassette. We had a good discussion, including > speculating whether the (then new) hollow pin chains > advertised as lighter weight than solid pin models would > remain lighter weight for very long in the presence of > road grime. %^) Now see, that's actually the sort of discussion over the phone that The Bicycleman had with me. So I was like, cool! I mean, I didn't ask all that, but here was someone obviously interested in my well-being as a fellow cyclist! But then I just got dropped for the walk-in without about three-fourths of my concerns answered (since his answers to the few I managed to ask were so in-depth), and my two e-mail messages were never responded to. > I went away, not purchasing a chain that day. But > guess where I shop *first* locally for bike supplies > since then. > > Jon Meinecke Thanks again for commiserating. I think for my part, I probably do expect too much sometimes. Sure they're cyclists, but they're businessmen first, and they're just in business-mode. Who knows anymore. Even when I give 'em money I can barely get a response (you out there, Johannes??).     Date: 25 Jan 2006 02:45:36 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1138131226.388274.25160@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Jon Meinecke wrote: [...] >> Bike shops, their owners, their clientele, have a 'personality', >> a certain feel, a quirkiness, probably more so than other, >> small to medium retail operations. I try to make allowances. >> Overall, the LBS is a vanishing "breed",-- like the local >> hardware store or family-run grocery. An LBS with >> knowledge of recumbents is the exception. We have none >> of such locally. Few small-to-medium kets do. > > Much as even I lament the "box-store phenomenon" -- giant blocks of > Walts, Home Depots, and Borders -- I have to say that they > practically never give you grief. Sure it's hard finding someone who > speaks English -- it's a miracle to find staff at all if you have a > quesiton -- but the price is the price, the policy is the policy, thank > you very much. Experiences like mine make me think I could do with > less "personality," if you know what I mean! I am with NYC here. I very much like the big box discount stores. After all, it is all about price. Service is almost nonexistent these days and who needs it anyway. Mom and pop type of stores have always been a pain in the ass. Good riddance to them. Give me Wal-t any old day of the week and twice on Sundays. Hell, if I were a kid I would get my bike at Wal-t and I would be perfectly happy with it. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 24 Jan 2006 11:19:33 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Jeff Grippe wrote: > > > I didn't think of it as haggling on the price. It was simply that I knew the > price of the new bike and the one he had was "well used". There were a few > dings, missing paint (small chips), etc. Also it was my first trike and if I > could spend a bit less that would appealed to me. Since I knew the price of > the new TT 3.5 (at that time), I couldn't see paying $100 less for a very > well used older model. > > But on the other hand, this guy setup almost a dozen different trikes and > let me take them on a mile long test ride that he had mapped out. You really > can't beat that kind of service. > > Jeff Okay, "haggling" probably has too many negative connotations, but I recognize that one has to pay for great service, for the shop being there in the first place to provide the service, etc., etc., etc. Of course that's all up to the proprietor to work out, and I'm not saying it's my concern as such; no, I'm just saying that I "recognize" that and so I guess it just doesn't "occur" to me to even try to get a "better" price. I don't believe I'd get more than, what, 3% off, and what's 3% when all things are considered? I know that sounds "defeatist" of me as a consumer, but I just like rewarding intangibles as tangibly as I can. Perhaps even "rewarding" is the wrong word, as if they were just prostitutes of some sort. But much as these guys piss me off, I think that LBSes in general should be supported, and this is my way of putting my money where my mouth is.   Date: 24 Jan 2006 09:23:04 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? GRRRREAT Q&A, folks. Many, many thanks for the education. I'd long suspected these businesses just treading water. I think the only successful (which doesn't mean mere survival) shops are those which own the land. Rent's probably the single biggest deduction on gross income -- at least it was for my dad's restaurant. It was a swank Manhattan joint that had lines out the door, but the landlord simply decided he could get more from a bank, and pop was paying $35,000.00 a month in 1987. Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > > $200 gin isn't $200 profit. Keep in mind bicycles require substantial > time in assembly; not many other items you'd buy require all that work > before they can go out the door. Car dealers tell me they can prep a car in > 20 minutes, which is 2 hours, 40 minutes less time than it takes for many > bikes. > > For what it's worth, we had at least two customers this past week looking > for bikes we didn't have in stock, and no bike orders to be released as soon > as they wanted the bikes. So we sent them to another shop that did have > them. So yes, we could have eaten the freight charges and sold them the > bikes, but we simply cannot afford to do business like that. Pre-tax profit > on a very well-run bike shop runs under 7%, more typically 5%. That's > pre-tax. I'm sure there are some shops that thrive on essentially > situational pricing (you charge customers differently depending upon your > mood, or that they won't buy something without bargaining, or the business > is in a cash flow crisis), but that's generally not a long-term road to > success. Everyone involved in the shop, from owner to salesperson to > mechanic, loses any real sense of value, in terms of what they're delivering > to the customer, because it's different to each one. > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com   Date: 24 Jan 2006 08:51:43 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bike Movie (was Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1138109226.179391.136050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "ian.rosenberg@gmail.com" <ian.rosenberg@gmail.com > writes: > However, the IMDB doesn't have an exact name match for "Two Seconds." > Are you sure this is the correct name? You might have better luck searching on "2 Secondes" or "Deux Secondes" (or even "Deux Seconds".) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0158446/ cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 24 Jan 2006 07:28:58 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Jeff Grippe wrote: > > By far the biggest ket for bicycles is bicycles for children. This ket > (which is probably very profitable) has been sewn up by the department > stores and the sporting goods stores. The next biggest ket is probably > cheap (but again profitable) adult cycles. Once again the department stores > and sporting goods stores have grabbed that segment. That leaves the high > end and repair work for the shops that remain. I find it odd that even high-end shops seem to carry some common kiddie bikes. I mean, if you're a high-end shop and you feel compelled to carry kiddie bikes, why not high-end kiddie bikes? IOW, I'm surprised folks actually go into an obviously high-end bike shop and purchase kiddie bikes of the sort they can get at The Sports Authority or Walt. > I think all merchants should > be friendly. Again, except for Evan -- who can be friendly, too -- none of the folks I've been complaining about have been down-right rude, as in, "pay up or shut up." But it borders on it when they don't return e-mail, despite my very clearly telling them I'm already sold on a $3K or $4K SMGTe and I don't haggle prices. I mean, it's all there in writing! And I'm writing to set up an appointment! I don't know what else I should have done...maybe throw in my girlfriend, too! > Rob at RBR in State College is quite friendly. He helped me make a trade in > which he had no financial involvement. About all he got out of it was that I > spent $80 at his shop (although I do go out of my way to say good things > about him when I can). Thanks for the tip! I will certainly keep him in mind, as State College should be a more interesting visit than Alfred Station, New York. > Mt. Airy cycles in MD is the same distance away from us as Rob in State > College. They have a much larger selection of bent bikes and trike and they > will spend hours setting them up for you to test ride. The catch is that the > owner is independently wealthy (I've heard) and he is completely inflexible > on price. Sometimes he prices are completely unreasonable. For example, when > I visited him he had a Wizwheels TT 3.4 with some cosmetic problems which he > wanted $1,795 for. I pointed out to him that a new one (at that time the new > one was the TT 3.5) was $1,895. His response to me was "So go buy a new > one". But it his shop and he can set his prices any way he want to. He > really is a very decent fellow and he provides good service. You know, that reminds me: maybe I'm just too gosh-darn nice. Maybe these people expect an attitude and would respect one. I never haggle price! I know it sounds crazy, especially since I work as a buyer and I haggle prices nine-to-five (!!), but I myself never (99%) haggle price. But I catch the same "you can't spend enough on me" attitude, it seems, wherever I go. Even this guy Johannes of NorthEast Recumbents is hard to get a hold of. I'm spending $4K and it's like I've giving HIM the sales pitch! > Jeff     Date: 24 Jan 2006 12:56:58 From: Jon Meinecke Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Newsgroups trimmed "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote > Again, except for Evan -- who can be friendly, too -- none of the folks > I've been complaining about have been down-right rude, as in, "pay up > or shut up." But it borders on it when they don't return e-mail, In the end, you have choices. Less so, perhaps for purchasing a non-commodity item like a recumbent bike. Vote with your money. Bike shops, their owners, their clientele, have a 'personality', a certain feel, a quirkiness, probably more so than other, small to medium retail operations. I try to make allowances. Overall, the LBS is a vanishing "breed",-- like the local hardware store or family-run grocery. An LBS with knowledge of recumbents is the exception. We have none of such locally. Few small-to-medium kets do. As for treatment of phone calls, I tend to agree that someone waiting in the store should take precedence over someone on the phone. Taking a number to call someone back seems like the polite and efficient thing to do. If a seller doesn't get back to you, well, indeed they don't want your business or are less than competent. I went into a LBS to purchase three standard chains to replace my recumbent chain. I had questions about the relative merit of various models. The shop owner didn't have three chains of the same type in stock and couldn't offer any advice why one chain might be better, though more expensive, than another. He treated me rather abruptly and effectively indicated he didn't want my business if I didn't just want to buy something then and there. I rode from that LBS to the other LBS, where the owner grabbed a chain wear measurement tool and told me I might as well continue with the chain I had for another few thousand miles since it had worn to the point that when I replaced the chain I would need to replace the rear cassette. We had a good discussion, including speculating whether the (then new) hollow pin chains advertised as lighter weight than solid pin models would remain lighter weight for very long in the presence of road grime. %^) I went away, not purchasing a chain that day. But guess where I shop *first* locally for bike supplies since then. Jon Meinecke     Date: 24 Jan 2006 13:50:40 From: Jeff Grippe Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? > You know, that reminds me: maybe I'm just too gosh-darn nice. Maybe > these people expect an attitude and would respect one. I never haggle > price! I know it sounds crazy, especially since I work as a buyer and > I haggle prices nine-to-five (!!), but I myself never (99%) haggle > price. > I didn't think of it as haggling on the price. It was simply that I knew the price of the new bike and the one he had was "well used". There were a few dings, missing paint (small chips), etc. Also it was my first trike and if I could spend a bit less that would appealed to me. Since I knew the price of the new TT 3.5 (at that time), I couldn't see paying $100 less for a very well used older model. But on the other hand, this guy setup almost a dozen different trikes and let me take them on a mile long test ride that he had mapped out. You really can't beat that kind of service. Jeff   Date: 24 Jan 2006 05:27:06 From: marian.rosenberg@gmail.com Subject: Bike Movie (was Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Andrew Price wrote: > NYC XYZ wrote - > > > Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there > > some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have > > employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? > > > I think the all time difficult LBS guy is depicted in the Canadian movie > "Two Seconds". As far as I can tell from your description below this is the film I unsuccessfully tried to get the English name of because it looked interesting enough that I wanted to get more of the dialogue than was really possible with the dubbed Chinese version. Problem was that whoever did the version for China decided to do the title shot with grass script which I can barely decipher with the aid of printed text telling me what I'm trying to look at. However, the IMDB doesn't have an exact name match for "Two Seconds." Are you sure this is the correct name? > The shop proprietlor, an ex road racer with considerable attitude, confronts > Miss Downhill Racer with equal but opposite attitude. Breathtaking rudeness > from him, but there is a reason ... > > Whilst demolishing a bottle of scotch after hours in the shop, each argues > how their particular discpline gave true meaning to the concept of suffering > on a bicycle. > > Friendship and mutual respect follow - liked that bit of the movie. Hmmm ... admittedly I was only watching bits and snippets of the movie (there were other more interesting barbecue type things going on at the same time including roast suckling pig and hot sugar cane) but I don't specifically remember that part. Did Miss Downhill Racer become a bicycle courier for at least part of the film? -M   Date: 24 Jan 2006 05:30:21 From: Jeff Grippe Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > By far the biggest ket for bicycles is bicycles for children. This ket (which is probably very profitable) has been sewn up by the department stores and the sporting goods stores. The next biggest ket is probably cheap (but again profitable) adult cycles. Once again the department stores and sporting goods stores have grabbed that segment. That leaves the high end and repair work for the shops that remain. I think all merchants should be friendly. Rob at RBR in State College is quite friendly. He helped me make a trade in which he had no financial involvement. About all he got out of it was that I spent $80 at his shop (although I do go out of my way to say good things about him when I can). Mt. Airy cycles in MD is the same distance away from us as Rob in State College. They have a much larger selection of bent bikes and trike and they will spend hours setting them up for you to test ride. The catch is that the owner is independently wealthy (I've heard) and he is completely inflexible on price. Sometimes he prices are completely unreasonable. For example, when I visited him he had a Wizwheels TT 3.4 with some cosmetic problems which he wanted $1,795 for. I pointed out to him that a new one (at that time the new one was the TT 3.5) was $1,895. His response to me was "So go buy a new one". But it his shop and he can set his prices any way he want to. He really is a very decent fellow and he provides good service. Jeff   Date: 23 Jan 2006 13:30:50 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Rice wrote: > > > Hi NYC. Hope your purchase experience goes smoothly for you from here > on out (maybe this is already too late?). Hello, Mike! Thanks for the well-wishes -- I think I'm helping out someone going out of business soon, NorthEast Recumbents. It was amazing riding that SMGTe!! What an introduction to recumbent bicycles -- I can't remember feeling the potholes which I would riding an upright!!! I could almost fall asleep on that thing!!!! > Just wanted to thank you for the way you posted in the above quoted > text. It was easy to follow the 'conversation' when the points you > were responding to were included above your reply. In some (seems like > roughly half today) of your posts you have been typing your message > above the older ones, it really is somewhat more confusing to follow > that way. You know, if it's a short sentence or two, something like that, I just dash off whatever -- hence the top-posting. Also, some don't like scrolling down just to see a few sentences. And I often prefer a "bottom-heavy" visual in many contexts -- just seems to look more "appropriate" to have "the cherry" on top, as it were. > Watch out or Ed D. might call you an idiot. He normally gets > set off by those who top post. Why, is he a cranky bike shop owner? > Of coarse he is glad to have you in the group and might refrain from > exressing his more normally combative nature when responding to you. > Most of the rest of us aren't so lucky, and have learned to ignore his > more incoherent tirades. You haven't been here long enough to have > witnessed that side, good for you. Oh, he tried to tickle me too, but I think I placated him with some pin-ups. > Again, welcome to the group(s), and good luck with your two wheeled > ventures! Hey, thanks! Here's hoping God's sense of humor doesn't run out on me...I need to get that self-supported know-how. > Indiana Mike   Date: 23 Jan 2006 11:10:06 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? max wrote: > > > In this instance, a meta-analysis based on the dimensions of a) message size What, you never heard of broad-band? > and b) explicitly naming the LBS's and owners Is that unusual for a customer complaint? > is sufficient to approximate > an answer: yes. Glad you don't build bridges or time machines. > Dial your time machine to 1979*, travel back to score a bucket of 'luudes. > return, take some and revisit the shops in question. Theory predicts a more > satisfactory outcome. Wow, didn't know this was like finding a good doctor or car mechanic. > .max > *i lost my TGIF soundtrack album, if you could bring me a copy i'd be > grateful Sorry, but I can do you the 'luudes, dude.   Date: 23 Jan 2006 11:01:44 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? David Kerber wrote: > > > The caps are pretty important in bad weather to keep the area clean and > usable. I've seen them get pretty well iced up in cold weather, and > jammed with grit in wet weather. Those of you in San Diego, Miami or > Phoenix may not have to worry about, but in New England we do... > > -- > Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the > newsgroups if possible). Great point! I was just about to give up my valve cap fetish, too, until you installed visions of myself freezing over trying to fix a flat, only to find out that I can't pump 'cause of an ice-sealed uncovered valve!   Date: 23 Jan 2006 10:46:49 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Tom Kunich wrote: > Let me tell you a little about bad bicycle shop manners. > > 1) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered > most of which have to do with what parts cost. Well, to anyone that has had > experience in a small shop they'd know that they can't tell you what most > parts cost because they try to buy them from the cheapest source at the time > they;re ordered and sometimes the difference in price can be 100%. He should have said that, then. And if he thought I was the competition or something like that, he could have said it wasn't his policy to give out prices over the phone. Etc. > 2) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered > and apparently doesn't know that small shops only have one or two people in > them and walk-in money-in-hand customers have priority over time wasting > phone callers. Did you actually read what I wrote??? I'm begging him to take my $3K!!! Part of the call was to determine whether options might cost another $1K!!!! > 3) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered > and doesn't know that small shops make most of their money off of labor from > repairing bicycles and time spent on the phone answering questions for > someone they're in all likelihood never to see is taking money directly out > of the till. I guess I forgive The Bicycleman...after all, he only *heard* me over the phone, whereas even you, who has my words in writing, doesn't know a sale when it stuffs money in your mouth!! > 4) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered > and whines to everyone else that the bicycle shop was rude to them without > mentioning how rude they were to take up valuable time and then complain > that they weren't satisfied with the answers they got or that paying > customers should have been made to wait by someone who will never enter > their shop but loves to take up their time. Of course, you're not whining here? Or am I keeping you up? You can try ALT+CTRL+DEL or my new Usenet Reader Satisfaction Hotline at 800-GET-LOST.     Date: 23 Jan 2006 20:05:45 From: Mike Rice Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On 23 Jan 2006 10:46:49 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: > >Tom Kunich wrote: >> Let me tell you a little about bad bicycle shop manners. >> >> 1) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered >> most of which have to do with what parts cost. Well, to anyone that has had >> experience in a small shop they'd know that they can't tell you what most >> parts cost because they try to buy them from the cheapest source at the time >> they;re ordered and sometimes the difference in price can be 100%. > >He should have said that, then. And if he thought I was the >competition or something like that, he could have said it wasn't his >policy to give out prices over the phone. > >Etc. > >> 2) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered >> and apparently doesn't know that small shops only have one or two people in >> them and walk-in money-in-hand customers have priority over time wasting >> phone callers. > >Did you actually read what I wrote??? I'm begging him to take my >$3K!!! Part of the call was to determine whether options might cost >another $1K!!!! > >> 3) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered >> and doesn't know that small shops make most of their money off of labor from >> repairing bicycles and time spent on the phone answering questions for >> someone they're in all likelihood never to see is taking money directly out >> of the till. > >I guess I forgive The Bicycleman...after all, he only *heard* me over >the phone, whereas even you, who has my words in writing, doesn't know >a sale when it stuffs money in your mouth!! > >> 4) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered >> and whines to everyone else that the bicycle shop was rude to them without >> mentioning how rude they were to take up valuable time and then complain >> that they weren't satisfied with the answers they got or that paying >> customers should have been made to wait by someone who will never enter >> their shop but loves to take up their time. > >Of course, you're not whining here? Or am I keeping you up? > >You can try ALT+CTRL+DEL or my new Usenet Reader Satisfaction Hotline >at 800-GET-LOST. Hi NYC. Hope your purchase experience goes smoothly for you from here on out (maybe this is already too late?). Just wanted to thank you for the way you posted in the above quoted text. It was easy to follow the 'conversation' when the points you were responding to were included above your reply. In some (seems like roughly half today) of your posts you have been typing your message above the older ones, it really is somewhat more confusing to follow that way. Watch out or Ed D. might call you an idiot. He normally gets set off by those who top post. Of coarse he is glad to have you in the group and might refrain from exressing his more normally combative nature when responding to you. Most of the rest of us aren't so lucky, and have learned to ignore his more incoherent tirades. You haven't been here long enough to have witnessed that side, good for you. Again, welcome to the group(s), and good luck with your two wheeled ventures! Indiana Mike       Date: 23 Jan 2006 21:11:27 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Mike Rice" <jodymike@gte.net > wrote in message news:58dat1p862aqol765scjeba53udn2stc01@4ax.com... [...] > Just wanted to thank you for the way you posted in the above quoted > text. It was easy to follow the 'conversation' when the points you > were responding to were included above your reply. In some (seems like > roughly half today) of your posts you have been typing your message > above the older ones, it really is somewhat more confusing to follow > that way. Watch out or Ed D. might call you an idiot. He normally gets > set off by those who top post. > > Of coarse he is glad to have you in the group and might refrain from > exressing his more normally combative nature when responding to you. > Most of the rest of us aren't so lucky, and have learned to ignore his > more incoherent tirades. You haven't been here long enough to have > witnessed that side, good for you. Newsgroups trimmed. NYC does not interest me nearly as much as he does you apparently. He is into snappy replies to just about everything and those are the kind of messages I am a world expert at ignoring. However, if and when he goes on to say something substantive that peaks my interest, then I will be here for him as I am for all the other denizens of ARBR. The main thing NYC has done that is good as far as I can see is that he has sparked the newsgroup by dragging all the other newsgroups to ARBR. However, this will soon pass no doubt at which point we will discover whether we are alive or dead as a group. Time will tell. As long as the group is active and there are lots of messages to read, I would rather just lurk. The true indefatigable rascal of this newsgroup is Mr. Tom Sherman, not me. Unlike him, I do not live for newsgroups. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 23 Jan 2006 10:38:53 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Yes, I did say The Big Fella! What, you didn't know that THIS is the afterlife and we're in Hell?? Tom Keats wrote: > > > Ya but don't recumbents emanate from The Dark Side? ;-) > > > cheers, > Tom > > -- > -- Nothing is safe from me. > Above address is just a spam midden. > I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:47:32 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Major thanks for the ref! I often go that way, either towards Coney Island or off to the Rockaways. This shop is very centrally-located! Steven M. O'Neill wrote: > > > I just came from there -- it's Bicycle Station on Vanderbilt > Ave. in Brooklyn. The owner, Mike, is friendly, knowledgeable > and refreshingly competent. Prices are even very reasonable. > > (I'm not related, just a satisfied customer.) > > Here's the info in Google local: > http://bicyclestation.notlong.com > > -- > Steven O'Neill steveo@panix.com > Brooklyn, NY   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:46:07 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? It's amazing how people see what they want to see. He was the one doing ~85% of the talking. (Now how many times do I have to say that before I'm accused of being repetitive?) ellis wrote: > > > > Thirteen minute conversation? The longest I've ever talked to a bike shop > on the phone was a minute. A bike shop owner is not a bartender. > > "Do you have this in stock? OK, good." > "How much?" > "What time you open until?" > "Thanks. See ya." > > I buy lot of stuff online and do all my own work.   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:43:07 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? The Wogster wrote: > > > I am sure some shops wouldn't mind building one out of the box, if it > makes the customer happy, and the customer is willing to wait a few days > for it.... That's what I'd figured! So I'm asking here...is this really some industry-standard practice, then? As a kid I want to walk out of the shop with my brand-new toy, but now I can wait another day or two or more. I mean, even when I buy magazines in the bike shop I try to get the "freshest" looking copy. > They do keep water and dirt out of the valve, and dirt could lead to a > valve failure. Thst's rare though, my bike is missing one, and the car > is missing 3, no ill effects. Okay. Still don't know why Evan keeps them outside the shop on the sidewalk.... ;-) > W     Date: 23 Jan 2006 22:42:24 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> I am sure some shops wouldn't mind building one out of the box, if it >> makes the customer happy, and the customer is willing to wait a few days >> for it.... > > That's what I'd figured! So I'm asking here...is this really some > industry-standard practice, then? As a kid I want to walk out of the > shop with my brand-new toy, but now I can wait another day or two or > more. I mean, even when I buy magazines in the bike shop I try to get > the "freshest" looking copy. But again, that just may not be practical. The dealer may already have his entire stock built up, with none in reserve. And depending upon his order cycle, it may be several weeks, perhaps even a month, before his/her next shipment of bikes. With freight as expensive as it is now, you can't afford to ship out just one or two bikes anymore. You need to build an order large enough that the manufacturer gives you a substantial freight credit. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1138038187.124118.155330@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > The Wogster wrote: >> >> >> I am sure some shops wouldn't mind building one out of the box, if it >> makes the customer happy, and the customer is willing to wait a few days >> for it.... > > That's what I'd figured! So I'm asking here...is this really some > industry-standard practice, then? As a kid I want to walk out of the > shop with my brand-new toy, but now I can wait another day or two or > more. I mean, even when I buy magazines in the bike shop I try to get > the "freshest" looking copy. > >> They do keep water and dirt out of the valve, and dirt could lead to a >> valve failure. Thst's rare though, my bike is missing one, and the car >> is missing 3, no ill effects. > > Okay. Still don't know why Evan keeps them outside the shop on the > sidewalk.... ;-) > >> W >       Date: 23 Jan 2006 15:36:26 From: SMS Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > But again, that just may not be practical. The dealer may already have his > entire stock built up, with none in reserve. And depending upon his order > cycle, it may be several weeks, perhaps even a month, before his/her next > shipment of bikes. With freight as expensive as it is now, you can't afford > to ship out just one or two bikes anymore. You need to build an order large > enough that the manufacturer gives you a substantial freight credit. Yet there are products with even lower gins than bicycles, sometimes heavier than bikes, that are shipped individually across the country or across the world. If the alternative to eating a $50 shipping charge is to lose a sale with $200 of gin, what's the choice? Car dealers often swap inventory, even among competing dealers. Do bicycle shops do the same?         Date: 24 Jan 2006 04:43:12 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> But again, that just may not be practical. The dealer may already have >> his entire stock built up, with none in reserve. And depending upon his >> order cycle, it may be several weeks, perhaps even a month, before >> his/her next shipment of bikes. With freight as expensive as it is now, >> you can't afford to ship out just one or two bikes anymore. You need to >> build an order large enough that the manufacturer gives you a substantial >> freight credit. > > Yet there are products with even lower gins than bicycles, sometimes > heavier than bikes, that are shipped individually across the country or > across the world. > > If the alternative to eating a $50 shipping charge is to lose a sale with > $200 of gin, what's the choice? Car dealers often swap inventory, even > among competing dealers. Do bicycle shops do the same? $200 gin isn't $200 profit. Keep in mind bicycles require substantial time in assembly; not many other items you'd buy require all that work before they can go out the door. Car dealers tell me they can prep a car in 20 minutes, which is 2 hours, 40 minutes less time than it takes for many bikes. For what it's worth, we had at least two customers this past week looking for bikes we didn't have in stock, and no bike orders to be released as soon as they wanted the bikes. So we sent them to another shop that did have them. So yes, we could have eaten the freight charges and sold them the bikes, but we simply cannot afford to do business like that. Pre-tax profit on a very well-run bike shop runs under 7%, more typically 5%. That's pre-tax. I'm sure there are some shops that thrive on essentially situational pricing (you charge customers differently depending upon your mood, or that they won't buy something without bargaining, or the business is in a cash flow crisis), but that's generally not a long-term road to success. Everyone involved in the shop, from owner to salesperson to mechanic, loses any real sense of value, in terms of what they're delivering to the customer, because it's different to each one. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com           Date: 24 Jan 2006 10:09:30 From: SMS Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > $200 gin isn't $200 profit. Keep in mind bicycles require substantial > time in assembly; not many other items you'd buy require all that work > before they can go out the door. Car dealers tell me they can prep a car in > 20 minutes, which is 2 hours, 40 minutes less time than it takes for many > bikes. But what's the incremental cost of selling that bicycle versus not selling it. It would seem like you'd want to keep these customers from going elsewhere even at the cost of an occasional extra shipping charge. They're likely to be buying all the high-gin accessories and clothing from the shop that they buy the bike from, as well as returning there for service after the warranty. Sure you can't afford to be special ordering every single bike, but once in a while it would seem to be a worthwhile expense, if it's a high end model. > situational pricing (you charge customers differently depending upon your > mood, or that they won't buy something without bargaining, or the business > is in a cash flow crisis), but that's generally not a long-term road to > success. Everyone involved in the shop, from owner to salesperson to > mechanic, loses any real sense of value, in terms of what they're delivering > to the customer, because it's different to each one. Welcome to the world of retail. It's pretty rare to find a store of any kind that charges the same price to every customer, with all the sales, rebates, discount clubs, % off coupons, cash discounts, etc., not to mention plain haggling. I'm not sure that this is necessarily bad, as it enables the business to sell both to price-sensitive and non-price sensitive customers, increasing volume. My favorite discount was one that the Bicycle Outfitter once had, where they had 15 or 20% off everything in the store, during the hours that the Super Bowl was on. It was the one time to buy stuff that rarely goes on sale, such as Rivendell bicycles.             Date: 24 Jan 2006 23:59:38 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> $200 gin isn't $200 profit. Keep in mind bicycles require substantial >> time in assembly; not many other items you'd buy require all that work >> before they can go out the door. Car dealers tell me they can prep a car >> in 20 minutes, which is 2 hours, 40 minutes less time than it takes for >> many bikes. > > But what's the incremental cost of selling that bicycle versus not selling > it. It would seem like you'd want to keep these customers from going > elsewhere even at the cost of an occasional extra shipping charge. They're > likely to be buying all the high-gin accessories and clothing from the > shop that they buy the bike from, as well as returning there for service > after the warranty. Sure you can't afford to be special ordering every > single bike, but once in a while it would seem to be a worthwhile expense, > if it's a high end model. On an inexpensive bike, it's not incremental profit, it's incremental loss. That holds true up to about the $400-$500 area for the better shops; there are some that can probably make a profit on a $300 bike, because they put so little time into them. On a higher-end bike yes, we will special-order one in-between larger shipments if need be, because it's less-expensive to do that than to carry so many in stock that there's no possibility of running out in-between major shipments. >> situational pricing (you charge customers differently depending upon your >> mood, or that they won't buy something without bargaining, or the >> business is in a cash flow crisis), but that's generally not a long-term >> road to success. Everyone involved in the shop, from owner to salesperson >> to mechanic, loses any real sense of value, in terms of what they're >> delivering to the customer, because it's different to each one. > > Welcome to the world of retail. It's pretty rare to find a store of any > kind that charges the same price to every customer, with all the sales, > rebates, discount clubs, % off coupons, cash discounts, etc., not to > mention plain haggling. I'm not sure that this is necessarily bad, as it > enables the business to sell both to price-sensitive and non-price > sensitive customers, increasing volume. It may be rare, but that's us. We have no club discounts, no team-in training discounts, no %-off coupons, no cash discounts. The product is the same price to everyone, no exceptions. If we cannot establish that we're worth "x" price, the customer will go elsewhere. That's fine; not everybody wants to do business the same way. But it encourages us to be competitive and deliver the best-possible service we can, because we're establishing that *we* believe the product has a certain value, so we have to support that. We do however want to support various events, so besides direct contributions we also offer 5% of a customer's prior-year purchases in the form of a check to whatever charitable ride they're doing. We also do a 10% discount on parts purchased with the bike. > My favorite discount was one that the Bicycle Outfitter once had, where > they had 15 or 20% off everything in the store, during the hours that the > Super Bowl was on. It was the one time to buy stuff that rarely goes on > sale, such as Rivendell bicycles. You're probably aware that they changed hands; one of the problems they had was that they trained customers to wait until they had their sales. They had prices that were pretty high the rest of the time, but fewer buyers. That can lead to the need for even more sale events to generate cash, which further discourages people from shopping otherwise... a vicious circle that makes it difficult to stay in business. There are many successful business models out there; I'm not suggesting that what we choose is better than someone else's. It just happens to work for us, probably mostly because we're absolutely consistent. It also works great because the customer who comes in saying his friend bought a bike from us and got X$ off on it and he wants the same deal... well, we know that isn't the case. We end up not wasting nearly as much time chasing customers who are more interested in bargaining than in actually riding a bike. Yes, there are people for whom the thrill of the negotiation is more important than anything else. Me? I lose several years off my life everytime I have to buy a car. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:33:29 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > > There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In general, > bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current models > anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or st) > to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to go > broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & 63cm > mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two for > men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that > one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this > year, maybe more? Thanks for the insight. But I'm not sure how your explanation applies to my case, if that was your intention: he didn't say that that was the only Trek 1000c he had -- and in which case I could have waited, I didn't need to walk out the door with one that day. But what could I do? He tells me that all bike shops do it that way -- and there would have been no good way to tell a new one from the floor "sample," as I call it. > Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that goes > broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. > That's why it's unlikely he'd have another bike to build up "new" for you. > Having said all that, if there is a boxed bike that's sitting in back, > building it up is no big deal... why not? That's what I was wondering. If he's just putting another one back up on the wall, why not that one for me? And, again, I was willing to wait. (Please don't misunderstand -- this particular issue is no big deal for me. What I was really wondering about was the other stuff.) > Presta valve caps serve no reasonable purpose that I can see. They certainly > aren't air-tight. The best they might do is keep the area clean so you don't > blow grit into your tube, but I've never seen that cause any trouble. Hmm, okay. I just thought that everything had a purpose when it comes to machines, down to the smallest decal, pun intended! > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:32:58 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > > There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In general, > bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current models > anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or st) > to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to go > broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & 63cm > mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two for > men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that > one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this > year, maybe more? Thanks for the insight. But I'm not sure how your explanation applies to my case, if that was your intention: he didn't say that that was the only Trek 1000c he had -- and in which case I could have waited, I didn't need to walk out the door with one that day. But what could I do? He tells me that all bike shops do it that way -- and there would have been no good way to tell a new one from the floor "sample," as I call it. > Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that goes > broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. > That's why it's unlikely he'd have another bike to build up "new" for you. > Having said all that, if there is a boxed bike that's sitting in back, > building it up is no big deal... why not? That's what I was wondering. If he's just putting another one back up on the wall, why not that one for me? And, again, I was willing to wait. (Please don't misunderstand -- this particular issue is no big deal for me. What I was really wondering about was the other stuff.) > Presta valve caps serve no reasonable purpose that I can see. They certainly > aren't air-tight. The best they might do is keep the area clean so you don't > blow grit into your tube, but I've never seen that cause any trouble. Hmm, okay. I just thought that everything had a purpose when it comes to machines, down to the smallest detail (and decal)! > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com     Date: 23 Jan 2006 12:47:56 From: David Kerber Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1138037578.787416.95660@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says... ... > > Presta valve caps serve no reasonable purpose that I can see. They certainly > > aren't air-tight. The best they might do is keep the area clean so you don't > > blow grit into your tube, but I've never seen that cause any trouble. > > Hmm, okay. I just thought that everything had a purpose when it comes > to machines, down to the smallest detail (and decal)! The caps are pretty important in bad weather to keep the area clean and usable. I've seen them get pretty well iced up in cold weather, and jammed with grit in wet weather. Those of you in San Diego, Miami or Phoenix may not have to worry about, but in New England we do... -- Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:20:59 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? I love the example from Joe Campbell's "Hero with A Thousand Faces" -- some Hindu mystic was telling an acolyte that God was everywhere, and in all, and therefore everyone and everything is God. The acolyte was mightily impressed, and was walking a few inches off the ground. As he went down the road one day, an elephant that had gone mad came charging along. The acolyte commands it to stop, but is trampled to his chagrin. The next day, the acolyte consults the guru thus: I thought you said God was in all, and therefore in me, and therefore I am God. You are. Then how come the elephant didn't obey me? Why didn't you move out of the way when God came charging down the road? Edward Dolan wrote: > > > Hang in there Sorni. I will grow on you like a fungus. But I am not here to > be 'funny'. I am here to stir things up. I have many weapons in my arsenal > and I use them as befits the occasion. > > Every man believes the world began with him and that it will end with him. > And in a manner of speaking, it does. Is that not God like? > > Regards, > > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota > aka > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:12:01 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? I totally agree, especially with what you say about being a "writer-downer " -- people just have amazing different cognitive set-ups. And I also find usenet a helpful "sound board" or "foil" against which to sort out my own thinking on things. The Bicycleman was so chit-chatty that I felt very much at ease listening to him, thinking I was getting an education -- which of course I was -- but it would be very funny if he felt as many here imagine that *I* was wasting his time! Especially since he was the one going on about a local hotel, compared to a local bed-and-breakfast up the road, and even offering to let me camp out in his backyard if it comes to that! He'd even pick you up at the train station if that's the customer's mode of travel. So he goes on and on telling me all this, and I'm thinking, wow, another openly Christian vendor who tries to do "the Christian thing" (I hope y'all know what I mean)...but then he just drops me and never returned two e-mail messages!! (Well...now that I think about it [more] -- I hope everything's all right....) Claire Petersky wrote: > > > > I think that it has to do with how people make decisions. My > soon-to-be-former boss is someone who makes decisions by talking about and > around the topic he needs to decide on. He'll call you into his office > basically just for you to listen to him blather on, and finally, he'll say, > "let's do that then..." just like the above, except he doesn't owe me any > money. And it's cheaper for me to listen to him than, say, our attorneys. > > Me, no surprise, I'm a writer-downer, which is why usenet is such a great > medium for me. What might be a surprise is how many posts I've started, and > realize by the time I've finished it, I've decided the answer to the > question I was posing to the group. If it was going to be a bike-related > purchase, I couldn't do it over the phone -- I'd want to *see* the item > first. Buying over the internet is hard that way, too. > > Other people seem to be the silent types, saying nothing, and then laying > out their rationale for a decision in this vellous 1-2-3 logical > format -- it'd be hard for me to do that straight out of my head, without > writing it down first. > > -- > Warm Regards, > > Claire Petersky > http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/ > Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06 > See the books I've set free at: > http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky   Date: 23 Jan 2006 09:03:57 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Yeah, The Bicycleman is really rolling in the dough over there in Alfred Station if he could so easily drop me, a $3-4K customer, for whoever it was walking through the door that time! I should have known that's why he could afford to open only four days a week! G.T. wrote: > > > Do you excuse yourself for a minute to help another paying customer > who's been standing there waiting 20 minutes just to buy a tube? Or > possibly even a larger purchase? > > Greg > > -- > "All my time I spent in heaven > Revelries of dance and wine > Waking to the sound of laughter > Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons   Date: 23 Jan 2006 06:16:48 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? G.T. wrote: > Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > G.T. wrote: > > > >>Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > >> > >>> > >>>The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > >>>'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > >>>the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > >>>chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > >>>talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > >>>NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > >>>person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > >>>stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > >>>some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > >>>suicide, they don't go outta biz. > >>> > >> > >>I've seen guys stay in a shop literally for hours without ever intending > >>to purchase a thing. You would entertain these guys for that long? > > > > > > I think you get the impression that we sit down in our little lounge > > and yack about everything including some bike stuff. > > Do you excuse yourself for a minute to help another paying customer > who's been standing there waiting 20 minutes just to buy a tube? Or > possibly even a larger purchase? > > Greg Well, we all learn to multi-task. I can sell a tube while I continue to talk about the intricacies of an ERGO lever. It just isn't that hard. Some here thinks it's akin to talking in the UN or something. It's not, it's pretty simple.   Date: 23 Jan 2006 05:53:59 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? So it's considered bad bike shop manners to have them fix flats??? max wrote: > > > yes. Fix it yourself, poindexter.   Date: 23 Jan 2006 05:52:33 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Capri wrote: > Here's a novel concept for you. Learn how to fix a flat tire yourself! I know how to fix a flat -- I have to on the road -- but it's only $7-10 for someone to fix a flat, so why not support the LBS if there's one nearby: they do it faster, and I don't get dirty, besides. Next!   Date: 22 Jan 2006 16:01:37 From: Capri Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Here's a novel concept for you. Learn how to fix a flat tire yourself!     Date: 23 Jan 2006 03:16:11 From: Claire Petersky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Capri" <capri142@usa.com > wrote in message news:1137974395.287708.130650@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Here's a novel concept for you. Learn how to fix a flat tire yourself! I've had the shop fix a flat for me more than once. There's all kinds of reasons for it -- not just ignorance. One time I had the shop change a flat because I was stupid and pinched a slime tube. The thing exploded slime everywhere. By the time I finished cleaning that mess up, I was simply not in the mood to deal with the damn thing anymore. -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/ Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06 See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky   Date: 22 Jan 2006 15:24:27 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <pan.2006.01.22.22.44.14.852617@letterboxes.org >, Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > writes: > On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:32:51 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > >> Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that >> goes broke and one that stays in business. More important even than >> gins. > > So how can so many shops afford to be stuffed to the gills with shopworn > crap that's been there for years? I think it has something to do with the Pareto Principle (aka the 80/20 Rule). cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 22 Jan 2006 14:27:38 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: <snipped > > > There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In general, > bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current models > anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or st) > to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to go > broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & 63cm > mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two for > men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that > one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this > year, maybe more? > > Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that goes > broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. <snipped > Aren't you making a case for the large-scale bike makers, who have extensive "menus", to establish regional distribution centers? This would help the dealers both with inventory levels and with customer service. Seems to me that if "brand T" can get a bike to a dealer faster and more economically than "brand C,G or S", they would have a real advantage, both with dealers and customers.     Date: 23 Jan 2006 00:25:51 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In >> general, >> bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current >> models >> anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or >> st) >> to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to >> go >> broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & >> 63cm >> mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two >> for >> men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that >> one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this >> year, maybe more? >> >> Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that >> goes >> broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. > > <snipped> > > Aren't you making a case for the large-scale bike makers, who have > extensive "menus", to establish regional distribution centers? This > would help the dealers both with inventory levels and with customer > service. Seems to me that if "brand T" can get a bike to a dealer > faster and more economically than "brand C,G or S", they would have a > real advantage, both with dealers and customers. You better believe it! And that's something they've been working on for some time. Presently, the problem is priily SKU proliferation. Too many models & colors, so it's impossible to keep a good representation of what's offered in stock. But they have done a much-better job of having inventory in stock, at the warehouse, when I need it. Without that, I'd be out of business. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com       Date: 22 Jan 2006 21:30:40 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:25:51 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > Presently, the problem is priily SKU proliferation. Too > many models & colors, so it's impossible to keep a good representation > of what's offered in stock. But they have done a much-better job of > having inventory in stock, at the warehouse, when I need it. Without > that, I'd be out of business. Why not offer fewer lines and models but plenty of mix and match options, like traditional vs. aero wheels, taller bar and stem vs. lower racy setup, etc? These are the only differences between most of the models anyway. They share frames and other parts already, they're just thrown together in different combinations. IOW, sell bikes like Dell sells computers. Some smaller companies have tried this, but it makes more sense for big companies like Trek to do it. Matt O.     Date: 22 Jan 2006 19:08:53 From: The Wogster Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Ozark Bicycle wrote: > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > <snipped> > >>There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In general, >>bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current models >>anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or st) >>to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to go >>broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & 63cm >>mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two for >>men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that >>one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this >>year, maybe more? >> >>Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that goes >>broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. > > > <snipped> > > Aren't you making a case for the large-scale bike makers, who have > extensive "menus", to establish regional distribution centers? This > would help the dealers both with inventory levels and with customer > service. Seems to me that if "brand T" can get a bike to a dealer > faster and more economically than "brand C,G or S", they would have a > real advantage, both with dealers and customers. It's not uncommon for a company on the East Coast to get an order before 4PM, get it shipped out the door by 6PM, and delivered to the dealer by 10AM the next day. He gets it built and ready for the customer by 4PM. So 24 hours from the time the the customer say yes, to the time the bike is ready for pickup. Not easy, but if the customer *really* wants it, and is willing to pay for the express shipping, it can be done. A st shop, could even suggest it.... W   Date: 22 Jan 2006 10:03:49 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137944105.746114.249170@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > writes: > I was talking about his boss, the Big Fella > in the lawn chair winking at me while I was testing out the SMGTe. Ya but don't recumbents emanate from The Dark Side? ;-) cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 22 Jan 2006 11:40:05 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > That's Saint Ed the Great. I was talking about his boss, the Big Fella > in the lawn chair winking at me while I was testing out the SMGTe. For a while Mr. Ed (aka St. Ed the Grate) was posting as "GOD". -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 21:41:32 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137958805.750273.126920@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > > NYC XYZ wrote: >> That's Saint Ed the Great. I was talking about his boss, the Big Fella >> in the lawn chair winking at me while I was testing out the SMGTe. > > For a while Mr. Ed (aka St. Ed the Grate) was posting as "GOD". Newsgroups trimmed. In my own mind I am God. When I was believer I imagined myself sitting at his right hand dispensing wisdom on who should go to Heaven (very few) and who should go to Hell (almost everyone), but since there is no one out there but the ether, I decided I might as well be Him so that the rest of you would not wander in the wilderness like poor lost lambs. It is best to think of God as a carpenter who kind of got everything slightly screwed up, including Mr. Sherman. If God were perfect He would have made Mr. Sherman so he wouldn't be such a pain in the ass to all and sundry, but most particularly to Ed Dolan the Great, aka Saint Edward the Great. Mr. Sherman is nothing if not a pestiferous insect that you have to swat every now and then so he will know his place, which is infinitely below me. Compared to Mr. Sherman, Ed Dolan is God indeed! Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota       Date: 23 Jan 2006 04:13:28 From: Sorni Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Edward Dolan wrote: > In my own mind I am God. So if I said, "Damn you," there could be, like, a conflagration? Cool! Bill "you were funny...for about three hours" S.         Date: 23 Jan 2006 00:09:40 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Sorni" <sornidelicates@san.rr.com > wrote in message news:IJYAf.1351$Z3.1010@tornado.socal.rr.com... > Edward Dolan wrote: > >> In my own mind I am God. > > So if I said, "Damn you," there could be, like, a conflagration? > > Cool! > > Bill "you were funny...for about three hours" S. Hang in there Sorni. I will grow on you like a fungus. But I am not here to be 'funny'. I am here to stir things up. I have many weapons in my arsenal and I use them as befits the occasion. Every man believes the world began with him and that it will end with him. And in a manner of speaking, it does. Is that not God like? Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:46:16 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Jeff Starr wrote: > > > If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about recommending > NYC??? to him. I think this here is the problem: these shops think it's just me handing over the money like it was McDonald's. But even there I can ask for unsalted fries, etc. -- does $3K not mean at least that much? > This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does some > trolling, and gone again. You mean you honestly read the newspaper for good news? > I think last time it was boats swamping, and > mistreatment. Of course, you don't pay attention because it's enough that you fill in the blanks how you choose. > As others have said, when bad things constantly happen > to one person, You need John Allen Paulos' classic best-seller "Innumeracy" -- or at least a dictionary to distinguish between correlation and causation. >you have to consider the person. Considering that you have nothing of substance to say, I'm worried about you -- pride goeth before a downfall and all that. > Life is Good! Sure, ignorance is bliss! > Jeff   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:38:32 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Matt O'Toole wrote: > > > Well, the good ones do both well, but people with that combination > of skills can make more money almost anywhere else. > > These days the quality of bike shop staff, like coffeehouse staff, may be > explained by the "bad barista index": > > http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5073210 > > Matt O. GREAT LINK! THX!!!   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:36:11 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > No. It does seem that most bike shops are filled with either dolts or > surly putzes that are there to prove something...some sort of a power > trip about the 'knowledgeable vs the not' or something. > Even in Boulder we hear stories about some shops, and why they'll never > go in 'there' again. I think great bike shops or stores, kinda by > definition, don't do well in 'talking', I think sometimes from pressure > to sell, sell, sell. Thanks for commiserating, all the more important since you're a businessman yourself. Frankly, I can't figure out what business model the average LBS employs -- everyone seems to sell the same things! But if you don't, you're outta business! I wish you a busily prosperous 2006...bookking you for when I recover from my $4K SMGTe and get serious about componentry....   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:21:01 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Paul Cassel wrote: > > If you could see yourself as these folks see you, then you'd understand > that they are all there, but you won't find them without a serious > change in attitude. That's why I'm asking. What did I do wrong? > I like the valve cap story - very illustrative. I walk in to get my flat fixed, as I'm paying I notice the cap's gone and I ask. Of course I didn't holler at Evan or anything like that -- and he wasn't on the phone (or getting over a break-up, AFAIK) -- so where did the stupid sarcasm come from? I go there all the time -- used to -- to get my flats fixed, etc., so what's the problem? Anyway, as it turned out, the Bulgarian mechanic actually lives in my neighborhood, so I'm paying him directly now for that kind of stuff.     Date: 22 Jan 2006 15:59:56 From: Paul Cassel Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > > Anyway, as it turned out, the Bulgarian mechanic actually lives in my > neighborhood, so I'm paying him directly now for that kind of stuff. > Glad to hear it's settled then. Time to ride and not regret past actions which can't be undone.   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:12:41 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Don't you believe in supporting your local bike shop? max wrote: > > > WEAK! > > fix it yourself, poindexter. > > .max     Date: 23 Jan 2006 03:24:59 From: max Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: > Don't you believe in supporting your local bike shop? > > > max wrote: > > > > > > WEAK! > > > > fix it yourself, poindexter. > > > > .max yes. Fix it yourself, poindexter.   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:11:46 From: ryancycles@comcast.net Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? After about twenty five years in the bike business in both retail and manufacturing, I"ve seen little change in the mostly poor attitudes of bike shop employees. I at first blamed the shop owners but over time came to realize that they were caught between a rock and a hard place. The only source of employees is from the ranks of the young testosterone laden male racer wannabees who have no other interests. As far as they are concerned anyone who comes into the shop to buy something non-racing related is someone to put up with because they have to. A shop employee once told me that to be a "real" cyclist you should be able to put up with pain and suffering. That seems to be pretty much a universal attitude amongst them. They also don't like to deal with anyone over the age of thirty, chances are if you are forty and have a bit of body fat you might as well be invisible. When I was in the business I would often stop at shops around the country. Many times I spent ten or fifteen minutes walking around the shop and was never even asked the basic "may I help you"question. I realize that dealing with the public can be frustrating at times, when I was building bikes in Eugene Oregon I occasionaly spent time in a friend's shop and was alwaYS Amused at his having to bite his tongue when people came in asking for such things as used inner tubes. It's tough business that has changed a lot over the years. Most of the mom and pop shops are gone. Over the last year in the Boston area I've seen at least 5 or 6 shops close. One of them belonged to friend who, as far as I could see did nothing wrong. He had a beautiful modern well laid out shop in a great location with excellent employees who were great at dealing with customers. After ten years he finally had to throw in the towel and declare bankruptcy. Again, a tough business and I salute anyone who make a living at it. Dick Ryan     Date: 22 Jan 2006 23:43:36 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? <ryancycles@comcast.net > wrote in message news:1137946306.460212.294840@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > > After about twenty five years in the bike business in both retail and > manufacturing, I"ve seen little change in the mostly poor attitudes of > bike shop employees. I at first blamed the shop owners but over time > came to realize that they were caught between a rock and a hard place. > The only source of employees is from the ranks of the young > testosterone laden male racer wannabees who have no other interests. As > far as they are concerned anyone who comes into the shop to buy > something non-racing related is someone to put up with because they > have to. A shop employee once told me that to be a "real" cyclist you > should be able to put up with pain and suffering. That seems to be > pretty much a universal attitude amongst them. They also don't like to > deal with anyone over the age of thirty, chances are if you are forty > and have a bit of body fat you might as well be invisible. When I was > in the business I would often stop at shops around the country. Many > times I spent ten or fifteen minutes walking around the shop and was > never even asked the basic "may I help you"question. > I realize that dealing with the public can be frustrating at times, > when I was building bikes in Eugene Oregon I occasionaly spent time in > a friend's shop and was alwaYS Amused at his having to bite his tongue > when people came in asking for such things as used inner tubes. It's > tough business that has changed a lot over the years. Most of the mom > and pop shops are gone. Over the last year in the Boston area I've seen > at least 5 or 6 shops close. One of them belonged to friend who, as far > as I could see did nothing wrong. He had a beautiful modern well laid > out shop in a great location with excellent employees who were great at > dealing with customers. After ten years he finally had to throw in the > towel and declare bankruptcy. Again, a tough business and I salute > anyone who make a living at it. > > Dick Ryan Mr. Ryan is one of the true pioneers in the recumbent bicycle business. I still have a lot of his literature on the fabled Ryan Vanguard, a wonderful LWB that I used to dream about. Alas, I never got one. Instead I got the less expensive Infinity. But I never bothered much with bike shops and their personnel. Instead, I got the literature and ordered all of my recumbents by mail order. I was never disappointed. It got to the point where I could know all I needed to know just by looking at the pictures and reading the literature. The one recumbent bike shop that I did visit was the Hostel Shoppe in Stevens Point, Wisconsin. It was like a little trip to Heaven for me. All those recumbents that I could see in the flesh! But mail order worked just fine for me and I never did buy a recumbent bike from a shop in a physical sense (I did order a couple of recumbents from the Hostel Shoppe eventually - which were shipped to me via truck). It was an adventure to buy a recumbent back in the good old days of the 70's and 80's. I think there were only a very few specialized recumbent shops back then. That has changed somewhat now but, as Mr. Ryan notes, it is still not an easy business to succeed at. Regards, Ed Dolan - Minnesota   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:05:19 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? justindavid wrote: > > > If you've never met a friendly person working in a bike shop you must > have one hell of a personality. You mean I look too fat in this dress?   Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:00:50 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > > I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as > well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). That's why I was like, it is just me or what?? > The > place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such > things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a > bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. But here's the thing: you're gonna build one *anyway* if I take the floor model (that's what you call it, right; it's there for people to try out, etc.), so why not give *me* the new one, seeing how I'm paying the new-price?? I'm not asking for it on the spot, mind you -- though if I take the display/floor model, you can be sure they'll build a new one that very night so there isn't an empty spot the next day. > And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way > customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the > reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it > should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. THANK YOU!!! That's why I'm keeping track of 'em now! I'm like, WTF, *all* my three bikes have no valve caps!!!! How did that happen!!! At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but are they really just decorative??? > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com     Date: 22 Jan 2006 17:46:00 From: The Wogster Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > >> >>I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as >>well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). > > > That's why I was like, it is just me or what?? > > >>The >>place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such >>things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a >>bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. > > > But here's the thing: you're gonna build one *anyway* if I take the > floor model (that's what you call it, right; it's there for people to > try out, etc.), so why not give *me* the new one, seeing how I'm paying > the new-price?? I'm not asking for it on the spot, mind you -- though > if I take the display/floor model, you can be sure they'll build a new > one that very night so there isn't an empty spot the next day. I am sure some shops wouldn't mind building one out of the box, if it makes the customer happy, and the customer is willing to wait a few days for it.... >>And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way >>customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the >>reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it >>should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. > > > THANK YOU!!! That's why I'm keeping track of 'em now! I'm like, WTF, > *all* my three bikes have no valve caps!!!! How did that happen!!! > > At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big > deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but > are they really just decorative??? They do keep water and dirt out of the valve, and dirt could lead to a valve failure. Thst's rare though, my bike is missing one, and the car is missing 3, no ill effects. W       Date: 23 Jan 2006 00:35:27 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big >> deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but >> are they really just decorative??? > > They do keep water and dirt out of the valve, and dirt could lead to a > valve failure. Thst's rare though, my bike is missing one, and the car is > missing 3, no ill effects. I think that's more true of standard valves than presta. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com     Date: 22 Jan 2006 21:32:51 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't >> such >> things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly >> build a >> bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. > > But here's the thing: you're gonna build one *anyway* if I take the > floor model (that's what you call it, right; it's there for people to > try out, etc.), so why not give *me* the new one, seeing how I'm paying > the new-price?? I'm not asking for it on the spot, mind you -- though > if I take the display/floor model, you can be sure they'll build a new > one that very night so there isn't an empty spot the next day. There's really no such thing as a "floor model" in a bike shop. In general, bikes don't get ridden much and not purchased, certainly not current models anyway. And the ability to just build another one up? Not so easy (or st) to have enough inventory to do that... it's a very easy way for a shop to go broke. Let's see now, the Trek 1000 comes in 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60 & 63cm mens sizes, plus 43, 47, 51, 54 & 57cm womens. One color for womens, two for men. So if a shop have only ONE, just one of each, they'd have 19 of that one single model in stock. And there are, what, 25 road bike models this year, maybe more? Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that goes broke and one that stays in business. More important even than gins. That's why it's unlikely he'd have another bike to build up "new" for you. Having said all that, if there is a boxed bike that's sitting in back, building it up is no big deal... why not? > THANK YOU!!! That's why I'm keeping track of 'em now! I'm like, WTF, > *all* my three bikes have no valve caps!!!! How did that happen!!! > > At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big > deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but > are they really just decorative??? Presta valve caps serve no reasonable purpose that I can see. They certainly aren't air-tight. The best they might do is keep the area clean so you don't blow grit into your tube, but I've never seen that cause any trouble. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137945650.879144.23280@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >> >> >> I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as >> well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). > > That's why I was like, it is just me or what?? > >> The >> place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't >> such >> things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly >> build a >> bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. > > But here's the thing: you're gonna build one *anyway* if I take the > floor model (that's what you call it, right; it's there for people to > try out, etc.), so why not give *me* the new one, seeing how I'm paying > the new-price?? I'm not asking for it on the spot, mind you -- though > if I take the display/floor model, you can be sure they'll build a new > one that very night so there isn't an empty spot the next day. > >> And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the >> way >> customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the >> reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it >> should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. > > THANK YOU!!! That's why I'm keeping track of 'em now! I'm like, WTF, > *all* my three bikes have no valve caps!!!! How did that happen!!! > > At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big > deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but > are they really just decorative??? > >> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles >> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com >       Date: 02 Feb 2006 00:45:52 From: Andy Morris Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > Presta valve caps serve no reasonable purpose that I can see. They > certainly aren't air-tight. The best they might do is keep the area > clean so you don't blow grit into your tube, but I've never seen that > cause any trouble. I thought they were there to stop the end of the valve chaffing the tube when it was rolled up. -- Andy Morris AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/       Date: 22 Jan 2006 17:44:20 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:32:51 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that > goes broke and one that stays in business. More important even than > gins. So how can so many shops afford to be stuffed to the gills with shopworn crap that's been there for years? Matt O.         Date: 23 Jan 2006 00:34:18 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that >> goes broke and one that stays in business. More important even than >> gins. > > So how can so many shops afford to be stuffed to the gills with shopworn > crap that's been there for years? > > Matt O Matt: If only I knew. Presently I'm dealing with this sort of thing in our apparel inventory. We have way, way, WAY too many choices (too many brands, too many offerings), so we end up with all manner of odds & ends left over. Much worse than with bikes, because unpopular leftover apparel just sits & rots and has little residual value. Bikes, fortunately, are better off. Assuming a bike has a certain degree of utility, it's a matter of matching up the bike to a particular customer. Road bikes generally aren't obsolete for quite some time, so a three-year-old road bike model isn't such a terrible thing to have on the floor. Older than that? It's still useful, still has "utility", but tends to get "lost" and ignored. One of the problems shared by many small businesses is that the owners are involved directly in the purchasing, and often don't want to admit that they screwed up, and thus dead merchandise hangs around longer than it should. If the buyer was told outright that, by a given date, "x" amount of what's purchased has to be gone, or else... and at the same time reasonable gins overall to show for it... then that buyer is probably going to do a much better job of keeping inventory levels reasonable and not allowing clutter to build up. But an owner is sometimes too "proud" of his/her decisions and not able to stand back and say "This crap has got to go!" I fight this stuff all the time, but for the first time am trying to get systematic about it. In all seriousness, it *does* make the difference between survival and not, in the long run. The world is squeezing just about every last bit of fat out of the food chain (an unfortunate metaphor since, literally, it seems the reverse is true!), with rapidly increasing insurance & rent costs, moderately-increasing labor, and steadily-declining gins. It's very scary math, and I'm not talking about just the bicycle business. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com           Date: 22 Jan 2006 20:29:33 From: The Wogster Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >>>Inventory management is the key to differentiating between a shop that >>>goes broke and one that stays in business. More important even than >>>gins. >> >>So how can so many shops afford to be stuffed to the gills with shopworn >>crap that's been there for years? >> >>Matt O > > > Matt: If only I knew. Presently I'm dealing with this sort of thing in our > apparel inventory. We have way, way, WAY too many choices (too many brands, > too many offerings), so we end up with all manner of odds & ends left over. > Much worse than with bikes, because unpopular leftover apparel just sits & > rots and has little residual value. > > Bikes, fortunately, are better off. Assuming a bike has a certain degree of > utility, it's a matter of matching up the bike to a particular customer. > Road bikes generally aren't obsolete for quite some time, so a > three-year-old road bike model isn't such a terrible thing to have on the > floor. Older than that? It's still useful, still has "utility", but tends to > get "lost" and ignored. In either case, the shop has to purchase the product, then they need to pay for it, using money that could be used to purchase product that is selling. This is why many large companies are using JIT. JIT is short for just in time, the idea being to hold it in inventory for the shortest possible time. A three year old bike, has probably cost the shop double the original price, in carrying costs. Which is why many shops will have end-of-season sales, so they don't need to carryover. > One of the problems shared by many small businesses is that the owners are > involved directly in the purchasing, and often don't want to admit that they > screwed up, and thus dead merchandise hangs around longer than it should. If > the buyer was told outright that, by a given date, "x" amount of what's > purchased has to be gone, or else... and at the same time reasonable gins > overall to show for it... then that buyer is probably going to do a much > better job of keeping inventory levels reasonable and not allowing clutter > to build up. But an owner is sometimes too "proud" of his/her decisions and > not able to stand back and say "This crap has got to go!" The key is turnover, say the distributor credit policy is net 30, you want it sold, within 30 days, so that you sell it, before you need to pay for it. After 60 days, k it down, your cutting your losses by that point anyway. If you can get additional stock in 3 days, you certainly don't want more then a weeks worth of inventory at any one time. Computerizing your inventory process can often help, because the computer can have minimum and reorder quantities, along with in stock quantities, so the minimum may be 3 days worth of sales, the maximum might be 7 days. Say you sell 2 road bikes a month, and can get additional stock in 2 days, you might keep one of each low to medium end model in stock, of a size that sells often. Someone wants a larger or smaller size, you can order it, you sell the one you have of a certain model, you order another one. High end stuff, you carry as special order, nobody wants to keep a $10,000 product in inventory, unless you KNOW that it's going to move, very quickly.     Date: 22 Jan 2006 10:33:41 From: G.T. Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > > > > THANK YOU!!! That's why I'm keeping track of 'em now! I'm like, WTF, > *all* my three bikes have no valve caps!!!! How did that happen!!! > > At another LBS the guy said oh you don't really need them, it's no big > deal. Is that true? I know they're not air-tight like a vaccuum, but > are they really just decorative??? > They're just to keep grunge off the valve. If you stick to paved roads you'll probably never miss them. Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:54:14 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Andrew Price wrote: > > I think the all time difficult LBS guy is depicted in the Canadian movie > "Two Seconds". Sounds interesting, but imdb.com doesn't list it, and it's not on DVD in any case. > The shop proprietlor, an ex road racer with considerable attitude, confronts > Miss Downhill Racer with equal but opposite attitude. Breathtaking rudeness > from him, but there is a reason ... Steve tin had this episode in one of his movies where a kid walks into his ice cream shop and inquires about flavor after flavor...but that's not me. > Whilst demolishing a bottle of scotch after hours in the shop, each argues > how their particular discpline gave true meaning to the concept of suffering > on a bicycle. > > Friendship and mutual respect follow - liked that bit of the movie. Well, like I said, I'm really curious if I did something wrong. > best, Andrew   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:40:38 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > I think you get the impression that we sit down in our little lounge > and yack about everything including some bike stuff. You and I know > that's NOT how it works but we get many that just have questions aboit > this goofy thing called bicycles. We talk and tell them the truth. MANY > times it translates to sales. WE don't have the rep of being surly and > confrontational, many shops in Boulder do. MANY times they say 'thanks > for taking the time, the shop on ____ street wouldn't. MANY times it > turns into $, sometimes not. BUT the tone of many other than XYZ smacks > of confrontation, surlyness...many things we hear about in the I think it's like with people who are afraid to walk into a restaurant and try out new foods...they don't want to feel like hill-billies imposing on some great chef...I'm glad your bike shop is "newbie-friendly." I think we should start a movement like that! "Newbie-rated Five Smiles" or something!   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:35:05 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? That's Saint Ed the Great. I was talking about his boss, the Big Fella in the lawn chair winking at me while I was testing out the SMGTe. Tom Keats wrote: > > > G-d is nuclear-powered. The last thing we wanna do is to > set Him off and make Him go ballistic on us. > > > cheers, > Tom > > -- > -- Nothing is safe from me. > Above address is just a spam midden. > I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:31:53 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > You and I agree, I know both of our stores operate the same way. BUT as > you know, sometimes a chat about a set of wheels sometimes ends with > the customer saying,out of the blue, "let's do that then, how much do > I owe you?'. Just before it was a chat about wheels..... That's salesmanship! Basically, it's like any relationship -- say a boy-girl one...you just chat, see what's up, what you have in common, etc. But if the attitude is "show me the honey/show me the money"...! As it turns out, I'll be spending an extra grand -- $4K!!!! -- 'cause I like Johannes at NorthEast Recumbents and I feel bad that he's planning on closing for good and I was interested in Magura ta ultralight hydraulic disc brakes sooner or later.... I'd give him some business advice, but I didn't want to rub it in or something: his website sucks. The location is bad, too. But of course, it don't help that nobody rides 'bents much. But he's been doing it eleven years now, and at least he'll have time to actually ride his own bikes now!   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:16:29 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? cross post removed Edward Dolan wrote: > > > By the way, three thousand for a bike is an outrageous price. But it is guys > like Gotbent who obviously has more money than brains who keep the high end > recumbent manufacturers going. But is not that always the case. The guys > with the money seem to have no sts about how to spend it other than to > throw it away on conspicuous consumption. I have to admit to being nervous about that, riding it on the streets on New York...I mean, it's one thing if girls flag me down to ask, but what's gonna happen is cops and other thugs bothering me! Seriously, when I went kayaking in the East River in my inflatable, these cops pulled up and, I dunno, making sure I wasn't Al Queda or something...but they helped me launch, so that was cool.... > In an ideal universe God would let guys like Gotbent earn the money and guys > like Ed Dolan spend it. I know the value of a dollar even if no one else > does. That is because my mother did not raise any fools. When I think of how > hard money was to come by as a kid and of how easy others spend it today on > foolishness ... well, it just makes me sick! I'm sorry to hear that -- I was actually too embarrassed to tell my sister last night how much the thing costs. She's spending the same amount getting her new apartment repainted, rennovated, etc. as I am on a bike! I think I'll get fairing to hide myself so no one recognizes me and asks how much I paid for it -- but fairing costs hundreds??? > Christ! I never paid more than two thousand for a car in my life and here we > have this fool Gotbent telling us that three thousand is a fine price for a > g.d. bicycle. I mean, how crazy can you get? I must admit to sticker shock myself -- but it's the SMGTe! I got on that thing yesterday and I could almost fall asleep pedaling!!! And I couldn't believe it, but despite deliberately going over what potholes I could find -- which were small -- I didn't feel them at all!!!! The only bump I could get out of the thing was going over real speed bumps -- and that was fun, like kids bouncing on a trampoline all over again!!!!! > Regards, > > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota > aka > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:16:27 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? G.T. wrote: > Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > > > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > > suicide, they don't go outta biz. > > > > I've seen guys stay in a shop literally for hours without ever intending > to purchase a thing. You would entertain these guys for that long? I think you get the impression that we sit down in our little lounge and yack about everything including some bike stuff. You and I know that's NOT how it works but we get many that just have questions aboit this goofy thing called bicycles. We talk and tell them the truth. MANY times it translates to sales. WE don't have the rep of being surly and confrontational, many shops in Boulder do. MANY times they say 'thanks for taking the time, the shop on ____ street wouldn't. MANY times it turns into $, sometimes not. BUT the tone of many other than XYZ smacks of confrontation, surlyness...many things we hear about in the 'Republic'. Remember it's about bikes, not anybody needed a kindey dialysis or a heart lung bypass machine...bikes, toys...somebody can have some of my time. > > Greg > -- > "All my time I spent in heaven > Revelries of dance and wine > Waking to the sound of laughter > Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons     Date: 22 Jan 2006 10:32:04 From: G.T. Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > G.T. wrote: > >>Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: >> >>> >>>The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the >>>'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, >>>the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a >>>chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just >>>talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. >>>NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a >>>person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill >>>stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by >>>some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit >>>suicide, they don't go outta biz. >>> >> >>I've seen guys stay in a shop literally for hours without ever intending >>to purchase a thing. You would entertain these guys for that long? > > > I think you get the impression that we sit down in our little lounge > and yack about everything including some bike stuff. Do you excuse yourself for a minute to help another paying customer who's been standing there waiting 20 minutes just to buy a tube? Or possibly even a larger purchase? Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:10:11 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > > suicide, they don't go outta biz. > > Would be nice if that could always be the case, but... there are times when > a conversation goes from "customer" mode to "chat" and, realistically, the > customer whose needs haven't been served take precedence over someone in > "chat" mode. It really shouldn't be that big a deal either; it's not that > difficult to gracefully disconnect yourself from such a conversation by > letting the person know that you'd like to hear more about it later, but > right now you've got to take care of another customer. I don't think that's > rude, and I'll bet the majority of people (who you might have to cut a bit > short) would respect that, since they've been in the shoes of the person who > has to wait... and wait... and wait... while someone is having a friendly > conversation that appears to have little to do with business. You and I agree, I know both of our stores operate the same way. BUT as you know, sometimes a chat about a set of wheels sometimes ends with the customer saying,out of the blue, "let's do that then, how much do I owe you?'. Just before it was a chat about wheels..... > > In all seriousness, there are very few things that can be resolved over the > phone better in a 15-minute conversation than 5. In most cases, anything > that detailed needs to be dealt with in-person, in the store. > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com > > > "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com> wrote in > message news:1137854026.865835.201100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > > Rich wrote: > >> NYC XYZ wrote: > >> > >> > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > >> > >> Maybe he went out of business talking to people that weren't buying > >> stuff. > >> > >> > >> > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > >> > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > >> > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > >> > door. > >> > >> How much of his time did you expect? He's in business, and his first > >> priority should be the people that made the effort to get to his store. > >> He sounds friendly enough to me. > > > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > > suicide, they don't go outta biz. > > > >> > >> > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > >> > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > >> > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > >> > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > >> > > >> > WTF?! > >> > >> They're running a business, not a chat room. > >> > >> > Are my expectations out of order? > >> > >> I think so. > >> > >> Rich > >     Date: 22 Jan 2006 22:49:47 From: Claire Petersky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in message news:1137942611.141626.64380@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > You and I agree, I know both of our stores operate the same way. BUT as > you know, sometimes a chat about a set of wheels sometimes ends with > the customer saying,out of the blue, "let's do that then, how much do > I owe you?'. Just before it was a chat about wheels..... I think that it has to do with how people make decisions. My soon-to-be-former boss is someone who makes decisions by talking about and around the topic he needs to decide on. He'll call you into his office basically just for you to listen to him blather on, and finally, he'll say, "let's do that then..." just like the above, except he doesn't owe me any money. And it's cheaper for me to listen to him than, say, our attorneys. Me, no surprise, I'm a writer-downer, which is why usenet is such a great medium for me. What might be a surprise is how many posts I've started, and realize by the time I've finished it, I've decided the answer to the question I was posing to the group. If it was going to be a bike-related purchase, I couldn't do it over the phone -- I'd want to *see* the item first. Buying over the internet is hard that way, too. Other people seem to be the silent types, saying nothing, and then laying out their rationale for a decision in this vellous 1-2-3 logical format -- it'd be hard for me to do that straight out of my head, without writing it down first. -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/ Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06 See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky   Date: 22 Jan 2006 07:06:04 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Unlike you, I really have better things to do -- like get my flat fixed! -- than walk into a shop or conversation where I have no business or interest. G.T. wrote: > > > Because you probably use it as an excuse to annoy the fuck out of the > shop personnel. > > Greg > > -- > "All my time I spent in heaven > Revelries of dance and wine > Waking to the sound of laughter > Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons     Date: 22 Jan 2006 16:00:14 From: max Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137942364.575347.46170@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: > > Unlike you, I really have better things to do -- like get my flat > fixed! -- than walk into a shop or conversation where I have no > business or interest. WEAK! fix it yourself, poindexter. .max   Date: 22 Jan 2006 06:25:01 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Roger Zoul wrote: > ...On my road bike I get all nasty when it rains > (mostly down my back), I just though it would be much worse on a 'bent due > to long chain (throwing stuff alone your entire backside - seemingly, > anyway) and the because (seemingly) you're mostly leaning back so that rain > gets you more in your face than on a road bike where your head tends to lean > forward. I have never really noticed much water coming off the chain while riding a recumbent in the rain. But then, the rain never has bothered me as much as most other Midwestern riders (good thing they do not live in the Pacific Northwest near the coast). On a long wheelbase bicycle (LWB) a front fender is a necessity, as the spray from the front wheel will otherwise be directed at the rider's face at normal speed. On a short wheelbase (SWB) a front fender is very useful in keeping spray off the rider's feet, legs and crank/BB area of the bike. Rear fenders are also necessary for recumbents unless they have hard-shell seats, as the water will easily pass through a mesh back and/or soak the base padding. Of course for the ultimate in recumbent weather protection, see <http://www.leitra.dk/ >. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 12:27:49 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: : > Roger Zoul wrote: : >> ...On my road bike I get all nasty when it rains : >> (mostly down my back), I just though it would be much worse on a : >> 'bent due to long chain (throwing stuff alone your entire backside : >> - seemingly, anyway) and the because (seemingly) you're mostly : >> leaning back so that rain gets you more in your face than on a road : >> bike where your head tends to lean forward. : > : > I have never really noticed much water coming off the chain while : > riding a recumbent in the rain. But then, the rain never has bothered : > me as much as most other Midwestern riders (good thing they do not : > live : > in the Pacific Northwest near the coast). : > : > On a long wheelbase bicycle (LWB) a front fender is a necessity, as : > the spray from the front wheel will otherwise be directed at the : > rider's : > face at normal speed. On a short wheelbase (SWB) a front fender is : > very useful in keeping spray off the rider's feet, legs and crank/BB : > area : > of the bike. : > : > Rear fenders are also necessary for recumbents unless they have : > hard-shell seats, as the water will easily pass through a mesh back : > and/or soak the base padding. : > : > Of course for the ultimate in recumbent weather protection, see : > <http://www.leitra.dk/>. Thanks for the info. I'd keep it. The pic in the link reminds me of a duck :)   Date: 22 Jan 2006 03:29:15 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Tom Keats wrote: > In article <1137900383.463410.14520@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com> writes: > > > God works in mysterious ways, as the Recumbent-Bible-in-Bike-Shoes > > would surely agree. > > G-d is nuclear-powered. The last thing we wanna do is to > set Him off and make Him go ballistic on us. Sun worshiper? -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)   Date: 21 Jan 2006 23:44:13 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137879223.554158.256700@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > writes: > I got caught in a heavy rain shower on a group ride on a recumbent 1] > with the rest of the riders being on uprights. Since I was the only > rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet > above the shoulders. Here's a locally-built/designed stock unit with such conditions in mind: http://www.cambiecycles.com/bentrider.html It's very pretty to look at, especially with that lexan fairing. As for keeping dry, I do so with old-school technology: my cycling rain cape, fenders, a pair of gaiters, and toeclip covers made of strips of inner tube. I especially like how my toeclip covers + gaiters keeps my shoes dry, yet allows them to breathe. cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 21 Jan 2006 23:22:59 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Was he suggesting that? Besides, it looks good to have people in the shop, kinda like with restaurants. G.T. wrote: > > > I've seen guys stay in a shop literally for hours without ever intending > to purchase a thing. You would entertain these guys for that long? > > Greg > -- > "All my time I spent in heaven > Revelries of dance and wine > Waking to the sound of laughter > Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons   Date: 21 Jan 2006 23:22:44 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Johnny Sunset wrote: > > > You forgot Panama - George H. W. Bush turning on his old CIA "asset" > Manuel Noriega. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley Oh, hehe...weird kind of Freudian slip, that, considering how I met my first American Communist at that time, our high school English teacher who read Greek and Latin at Oxford (Magdalen College), spending his time trying to promote homosexuality as a decent thing and railing against Bush, Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, Eisenhower, and Truman, not to mention Christopher Columbus and Saint Paul!   Date: 21 Jan 2006 23:22:24 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? cross post removed gotbent wrote: > Yo NYC XYZ, you're ready to piss and moan about a lot of stuff, but > show a lot of thin skin when people don't agree with you and criticize > you. It's not that they disagree, it's that they're setting up STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS. My complaint was NEVER about not getting enough attention. But that's all you see them say. THAT'S VERY DISHONEST. > I have to admit that there are a few bike shop guys who piss me > off by being arrogant or aloof. I stay away from their stores! I go > where the staff earns my bucks. So it seems to me that your complaints > should go back to the bike shops, not here; but maybe it's a New York > kinda thing. You know, I never understood the mentality of telling someone not to complain on usenet. And if someone doesn't know how to wipe his ass, do you think it matters what color underwear he wears? > New Yorkers just seem to like to kvetch about everything. That's Jews. The rest of us se plaindre, sich beschweren, =E5=9F=8B=E6=80= =A8, =D0=B6=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=83=D0=B9=D1=82=D0=B5=D1=81=D1=8C.... > It seems that most of us don't care so much to hear your whining, > though. Is someone forcing you through the mud and potholes? > You're beginning to sound a bit like a major jerk that posted > here about his carbon M5. He was a total putz, and didn't like being > told that he was. Whereas you're complaining that he didn't like your complaining. > Kinda like Ed Dolan, but without Ed's staying power. Now you complain you don't get enough of Saint Ed the Great?? > Then Bram Moens finally posted witih the real story and our pet putz > was exposed for the total shmuck he was! I wonder what Peter Stull's > take on that conversation is? I'm sure that he'll be very surprised -- which is why I'd posted, incredulous as I was, asking whether there was something I did wrong. I called him to set up an appointment for a visit. I called him to ask about SMGTe options. I called him to talk prices. He told me about everything from his customer from Australia > Go buy the Streetmachine. I have a Speedmachine and since I upgraded > the brakes and a few other components, I think it's a fabulous piece of > engineering and a fine ride. I've already put down a deposit...I was so excited I didn't realize I was being charged $95 for something called disc brake-ready hubs when I have V-brakes...if I upgrade, which is most likely if the difference between V-brakes and hydraulic disc brakes are like night and day (are they?), I'll be getting those Magura tas.... > BTW three thou for a bike isn't all that much anymore. Have you taken a > look at how much a good suspended mountain bike costs? Three grand for a computer system ain't that much anymore either. But the salespeople I know would all love to have a customer who's already commited to spending at least that much. > You're complaint about the loose headset is valid and I would have > chewed the shop guy a new asshole when he didn't step up to fix it, if > it was my bike. As you know, I'm too much the gentleman. Though I had to insist on a new part from Trek, since even I know that a machine isn't supposed to creak and shake, especially when new. > OTOH I've had to take my SM back to the shop ( not the > shop where the SM came from, btw) a few times before the Maggys were > bled properly. But the shop didn't give me any shit about follow up > service, and the owner apologized for not getting it right the first > time, so they are still number one in my book. > > It's been great shmoozing, but now I gotta go shovel a half foot of > snow out of the driveway. BAH! Never understood why people don't like shoveling snow. I love snow, and I love exercise. On the way back from NorthEast Recumbents, the bus driver was complaining how Jersey wouldn't see no snow this year, since it's already January and we've barely had a dusting. Don't worry; I'll be off to some skiing newsgroup in another couple of years!   Date: 21 Jan 2006 22:25:59 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137900383.463410.14520@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > writes: > God works in mysterious ways, as the Recumbent-Bible-in-Bike-Shoes > would surely agree. G-d is nuclear-powered. The last thing we wanna do is to set Him off and make Him go ballistic on us. cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:42:16 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137894797.500358.8220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > writes: > The 'bent folks weren't exactly "rude" per se, but seemed much less > motivated for my business. Almost like when you go into the typical > hospital or health care clinic ("typical," not Park Ave. $$$$$)...I > swear, you get more enthusiasm at McDonald's sometimes! ehnngh ... you've still got your money. They don't. cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:26:23 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Tom Kunich wrote: > > > Of course you're right but then it's a lot easier to make a living in > Boulder than in New York City. > > When selling motorcycles I've spent two hours going over a dozen concerns of > a customer who would "be back in the morning" to find out that he bought the > same motorcycle down the street for $5 less (literally). > > Eventually I started treating customers the way they should be treated - > with the same respect they gave me. And all of the horse's asses who wasted > my time stopped coming in. And man if the profit didn't go up! One guy didn't put back my tire cap. When I asked him about it, he got very sarcastic. This is my fault? The other guy sold me a display model I had to pay brand-new pricing on which came with a defective headset that he insisted was nothing to worry about. That's my fault too? Yet another guy gives me the Encyclopaedia Britannica when I asked about options and prices, and then drops me when someone walks in like it was his wife and we're lovers. And he never wrote back. This is my fault as well? I told him I was sold on the bike. I called to make an appointment for a visit, since he's three hundred miles. He tells me about the customer who came all the way from Australia. He obviously doesn't need my business. I'm happy to give it to the guy who, unfortunately, is going out of business. God works in mysterious ways, as the Recumbent-Bible-in-Bike-Shoes would surely agree.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:22:19 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Kruger wrote: > "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1137891942.177765.171020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > > RonSonic wrote: > >> On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> >Roger Zoul wrote: > >> >> > >> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. > >> >> Now I > >> >> just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that > >> >> covers all > >> >> the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know > >> >> the > >> >> others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long > >> >> chain. > >> >> I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour > >> >> down. > >> >> heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. > >> > > >> >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. > >> > >> Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as many > >> would, > >> a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. > > > > And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. > > NOT." is not being pissy? > > > >> A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly > >> insecure. I > >> think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. > > > > Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? > > > If you re-read Roger's post, he's clearly not posting this as fact. He says, > in the snipped you quoted above, "I need to get up to speed on bents". "I > don't know the others you mentioned", "I worry about", "I bet...". These > aren't phrases used by those who are trying to sound like they know > something they don't know. Using "heh" and "NOT" in this context is derogatory towards recumbents. If the comment was not meant to be derogatory, it should have been phrased differently. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 04:26:00 From: Jeff Starr Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On 21 Jan 2006 19:22:19 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: >> > >> If you re-read Roger's post, he's clearly not posting this as fact. He says, >> in the snipped you quoted above, "I need to get up to speed on bents". "I >> don't know the others you mentioned", "I worry about", "I bet...". These >> aren't phrases used by those who are trying to sound like they know >> something they don't know. > >Using "heh" and "NOT" in this context is derogatory towards recumbents. >If the comment was not meant to be derogatory, it should have been >phrased differently. Oh, those poor recumbents, did Roger hurt their feelings? I read Roger's post and I have read other posts by him, for the last couple of years. It's you, not Roger who is being a jerk. Jeff Jeffrey Starr All rights to the above text is reserved. No use outside of rec.bicycle.tech, without express written permission.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:19:18 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Roger Zoul wrote: > Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: > :> RonSonic wrote: > :>> On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" > :>> <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: > :>> > :>> > > :>> >Roger Zoul wrote: > :>> >> > :>> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for > :>> >> me. Now I just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there > :>> >> a book that covers all the different types. I know what swg, > :>> >> lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the others you mentioned. Also, > :>> >> I worry about that really, really long chain. I bet that get's > :>> >> you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. heh, > :>> >> riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. > :>> > > :>> >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. > :>> > :>> Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as > :>> many would, a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. > :> > :> And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of > :> fun. > :> NOT." is not being pissy? > :> > :>> A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly > :>> insecure. I think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. > :> > :> Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? > > Do you really think anyone in their right mind would have took my comment - > in context, mind you - as that from someone who knew something about 'bent? > Obviously, I was expressing in opinion as someone who is clueless about > 'bents.... Why express a derogatory opinion then? This is not rec.bicycles.racing after all. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 08:04:24 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: : > Roger Zoul wrote: : >> Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: : >> :> RonSonic wrote: : >> :>> On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" : >> :>> <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: : >> :>> : >> :>> > : >> :>> >Roger Zoul wrote: : >> :>> >> : >> :>> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask : >> :>> >> for : >> :>> >> me. Now I just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't : >> :>> >> there : >> :>> >> a book that covers all the different types. I know what swg, : >> :>> >> lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the others you mentioned. : >> :>> >> Also, : >> :>> >> I worry about that really, really long chain. I bet that : >> :>> >> get's : >> :>> >> you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. heh, : >> :>> >> riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. : >> :>> > : >> :>> >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden : >> :>> >one. : >> :>> : >> :>> Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and : >> :>> has, as many would, a misperception. All the guy needed was : >> :>> disabused. : >> :> : >> :> And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot : >> :> of : >> :> fun. : >> :> NOT." is not being pissy? : >> :> : >> :>> A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and : >> :>> majorly insecure. I think it's from your inferiority at : >> :>> cyclocross. : >> :> : >> :> Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? : >> : >> Do you really think anyone in their right mind would have took my : >> comment - in context, mind you - as that from someone who knew : >> something about 'bent? Obviously, I was expressing in opinion as : >> someone who is clueless about 'bents.... : > : > Why express a derogatory opinion then? This is not : > rec.bicycles.racing after all. I don't see it as derogatory, especially since I plan on getting a one in the not-so-far away future. On my road bike I get all nasty when it rains (mostly down my back), I just though it would be much worse on a 'bent due to long chain (throwing stuff alone your entire backside - seemingly, anyway) and the because (seemingly) you're mostly leaning back so that rain gets you more in your face than on a road bike where your head tends to lean forward. You don't think there are pros/cons to the various types of cycles? The pros may outway the cons and vice versa, depending on your POV. I don't plan to give up my upright road bike but will would enjoy riding a 'bent. The world isn't just black and white.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:19:00 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Thanks; now I know what to expect from a bike shop: Defective parts. Paying brand-new pricing for display models. Getting your tire caps swiped. Getting your ear talked off when all you want to know is the price. I'm sorry -- amazon.com has spoiled me!! Little Meow wrote: > Phil Holman wrote in news:yL2dnUjtdY5AIk_eRVn-vA@comcast.com: > > > > > "Little Meow" <meow@meow.meow> wrote in message > > news:9752F81B6750900E7FF@127.0.0.1... > >> NYC XYZ wrote in > >> news:1137823301.949815.67280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > >> > >>> > >>> k wrote: > >>>> > >>>> OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting > >>>> about > >>>> how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly > >>>> or > >>>> wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. > >>> > >>> Goodness, I'm glad you don't design bicycles for a living the way > >>> your > >>> brain works. > >>> > >>>> You're right, it's not the norm. > >>> > >>> You're wrong, I wasn't talking about that. > >>> > >>> Why do you pick and choose what you wish to ignore? > >>> > >>>> I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that > >>>> these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret > >>>> handshake, > >>>> as you put it. > >>> > >>> You still haven't pointed out a single instance of what I'd done > >>> wrong. > >>> > >>>> Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. > >>> > >>> Your brain is toast. > >>> > >>>> -- > >>>> k Scardiglia > >>>> > >>>> conscious@mindless.com > >>> > >> > >> You are correct. The problem is with them, not you. Those non-plussed > >> customers must also have something wrong with them. They are not as > >> perceptive as you, so they are unable to recognize when they are not > >> receiving adequate service. Unfortunately, a shopper with your level > >> of sophistication will rarely encounter a shop that is adequate. > > > > IOW....... get real. Is that what you mean? > > > Not really. > Only a true princess would be sensitive enough to feel the pea.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:15:24 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > > > Would be nice if that could always be the case, but... there are times when > a conversation goes from "customer" mode to "chat" and, realistically, the > customer whose needs haven't been served take precedence over someone in > "chat" mode. Please believe me, as someone who's done retail and teleketing, I certainly appreciate the value of time. And as someone who's Ex' mother was so lonely that she'd chat up teleketers just for the heck of it, I know what you mean! But I had an actualy list of questions for The Bicycleman, none of which were answered completely. For example, I tried asking about the price of an air-shock option; he responded by giving me a nice 101 lecture on the mechanics of it all. Fine and dandy! I thought. Very friendly! Really cares for his customer! And the whole fifteen/twenty-minute conversation is like this -- I ask one thing, and he gives me wikipedia.com -- until when someone walks in and he barely excuses himself in ten seconds (half of which was me asking him if I may e-mail; he said yes, but I never did get a response). > It really shouldn't be that big a deal either; it's not that > difficult to gracefully disconnect yourself from such a conversation by > letting the person know that you'd like to hear more about it later, but > right now you've got to take care of another customer. I don't think that's > rude, and I'll bet the majority of people (who you might have to cut a bit > short) would respect that, since they've been in the shoes of the person who > has to wait... and wait... and wait... while someone is having a friendly > conversation that appears to have little to do with business. Sorry I didn't mention this, but I called him to set up an appointment, since he's three hundred miles from me. I was very "business-minded," but was actually relieved that he seemed to have time to expound in-depth! So I really didn't think much of it when he dropped me; it was just that he never did respond to e-mail, which seemed to cap off a most unusual sales pitch. Forgive the caricature -- I only employ it as a kind of short-hand -- but he reminded me of a Brainy Smurf type: talk talk talk but I never got my answer! > In all seriousness, there are very few things that can be resolved over the > phone better in a 15-minute conversation than 5. In most cases, anything > that detailed needs to be dealt with in-person, in the store. I agree -- but in this case, after all's said and done, he's lost my $3K. Which he doesn't need, of course -- he was telling me all about this customer from Australia...he's "too blessed to be stressed." Which is just as well, since I found a dealer soooooo much closer who could actually use my business since he is, unfortunately, going to go out of business soon. > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:00:20 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Claire Petersky wrote: > > > Well, my feeling is, I'd always deal with a customer in the shop before I > dealt with one on the phone. The person in the shop has made the effort to > at least come in, and is more likely to buy. I should have noted that I called him to set up an appointment for a visit. I made that extremely clear right at the beginning, but my asking one question begets whole pages of soliloquy from him -- which I appreciated, and which is why when that customer walked in, he didn't simply park me, or park the customer, momentarily, but right away told me someone walked, he gotta go, good-bye. A full 80% of the conversation was dominated by him. At the end of it all, I still didn't get a price from him -- he told me the "plain Jane price," but I wanted to know what the "real" price, with options, would be. So I'd ask about disc brakes, and he answers by telling me about his experiences with them, etc. -- but I never got a price! And this goes on for the whole conversation...and then someone else walks in and he hangs up on me in ten seconds -- six of which was me asking him if it's all right for me to wrap up via e-mail. Sure, he says. But I never got a response, and that was three weeks ago. As it turns out, it's probably for the best -- "Glory be to God!" as he says on his website -- 'cause I located a dealer much much much closer to me (fifteen miles instead of three hundred) who could actually use the business, since he's unfortunately going out of business: NorthEast Recumbents. > Also, I confess, I am not much of a phone person. I want to see and handle > the merchandise. Also, I appreciate the f2f interaction with the people in > the shop. Maybe you're more of a phone/email type? Let's just say that, barely speaking proper English, I would've been Seventh Grade Class President were it not for someone even better-looking than me entering the race at the last minute!!!! > -- > Warm Regards, > > Claire Petersky > http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/ > Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06 > See the books I've set free at: > http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky   Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:50:44 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? The Wogster wrote: > > > Maybe it's your city, the folks at Bayview Cycle, here in Toronto, seem > to be nice enough, and I didn't buy my bike there (long story)... I > have bought a couple of other things there... More expensive then > buying accessories at Mountain Equipment Co-op downtown, but then they > are only a 20 minute ride away, where as M.E.C. is a 1 hour > bus/subway/streetcar away.... > > I may take my bike to Bayview in the spring, the BB needs to be cleaned > and lubed, and they say they will do it as part of a tuneup for $40. > > I think the real issue, is to find an LBS that is close enough to where > you live, that you can and do go there on a regular basis, even if it's > just to see what's new. If your regular enough that the guy working > there, sees you come in, and calls you by name, then you are a regular, > and regulars always get better service, then walk in customers, it's the > way things are.... > > W I'm actually regular at the two LBSes in NYC -- that's what makes this all the more inexplicable. Gus -- the owner himself! -- at Bike Stop tried to push off what turned out to be a defective headset on my new Trek 1000c as NORMAL! He actually said that sometimes they're just a bit loose and creaky, that's just how things are, nothing to worry about!! I've had odd experiences before on other occasions where I go in for a hundred-dollar tune-up and they miss the most obvious things, like a clicking derailleur (sp?) or whatever's the matter. Gus even installed my cyclocomputer wrong! Thankfully, it works all the same (or does it? How would you know if a word's misspelled in the dictionary? It certainly feels like 789 miles!). Evan, of Pedal Pusher infamy, was on friendly terms with me. I'd come in once in four months and he'd remember my name, where I lived, what bike I have, and what I came in for the last time around! But now that I think more about it, it may be because I declined buying a Gary Fisher from him last year when my old Trek was stolen but I loved that bike so much that I insisted on another Trek MultiTrack 7200 (the Trek 1000c I now have is even better!). Evan showed me a catalog of Gary Fishers he can get which is supposed to be just as good, if not better. But he was showing me $400 stuff, and when I asked him how could they compare to ~$700 Trek MultiTracks, he couldn't say. Not only could he not say, for some reason he just "didn't hear" my question and half-ignored it and seemed to have answered another question altogether, the way you see politicians answer not what's asked but what they wish had been asked. That was so bizzare it really just "spooked" me -- and I had my heart set on my ol' MultiTrack 7200. So maybe he was sore from that. Not that I spent too much of his time -- ten minutes at most -- and not that I forced him to do a sales pitch, even -- I only asked whether he had the Trek MultiTrack 7200, that's all; I never asked for his opinions on comparable makes -- but maybe he holds a grudge, fueled by the purist's sense of disdain for dummies with dollars...? Now I'll be the first to admit I don't care for bike mechanics. It's like a guy who loves to eat but doesn't care to learn cooking. That's me and bicycles. I can fix a flat, sure, but it takes me twenty minutes, whereas it takes a pro five minutes. So I can easily support my local bike shop where that's concerned. But I don't wear Spandex, I don't wear no helmets, and I didn't know about internal-gear hubs until yesterday! So maybe he was sore that a mechanical moron like me refuses a sale from a racer like him simply on the basis of "gee, how is a $400 Gary Fisher comparable to a $700 Trek?"   Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:28:05 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > suicide, they don't go outta biz. WHEW!! Thanks, I was actually starting to look in the mirror for moles, checking my breath, considering speech therapy...! =) Bike shops have always been kinda "gruff" ever since I can remember as a kid -- a "are you gonna buy that or not?" attitude. But what amazed me here is that I'm telling them I'm sold, already sold, on a $3K bike and I can't get a response! I must update: NorthEast Recumbents did finally return my call. Turns out the guy's actually closing shop for good! So I "forgive" (or whatever the right word is) the delayed response....   Date: 21 Jan 2006 17:53:17 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? No, only two out of the four. The 'bent folks weren't exactly "rude" per se, but seemed much less motivated for my business. Almost like when you go into the typical hospital or health care clinic ("typical," not Park Ave. $$$$$)...I swear, you get more enthusiasm at McDonald's sometimes! And I must update on one of the two 'bent dealers, Northeast Recumbents: the guy apologizes and says he's real busy, etc. -- as a matter of fact, he's closing shop! So I caught him just in time, I guess. Not that I haggled him at all; I insisted on paying "normal prices," even when he threw in freebies like organic snack bars and magazines. So that was real cool -- and very sad. Now there really is only the one dealer in all of The Empire State! He won't be closing right away, though, and he seems to have a healthy stock left, so I recommend y'all to help spread the word and give him a look yourself to see if there's anything you could use. Tom Keats wrote: > > > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? > > > cheers, > Tom > > -- > -- Nothing is safe from me. > Above address is just a spam midden. > I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca   Date: 22 Jan 2006 01:37:00 From: Tom Kunich Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Let me tell you a little about bad bicycle shop manners. 1) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered most of which have to do with what parts cost. Well, to anyone that has had experience in a small shop they'd know that they can't tell you what most parts cost because they try to buy them from the cheapest source at the time they;re ordered and sometimes the difference in price can be 100%. 2) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered and apparently doesn't know that small shops only have one or two people in them and walk-in money-in-hand customers have priority over time wasting phone callers. 3) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered and doesn't know that small shops make most of their money off of labor from repairing bicycles and time spent on the phone answering questions for someone they're in all likelihood never to see is taking money directly out of the till. 4) Someone who calls on the telephone and wants a dozen questions answered and whines to everyone else that the bicycle shop was rude to them without mentioning how rude they were to take up valuable time and then complain that they weren't satisfied with the answers they got or that paying customers should have been made to wait by someone who will never enter their shop but loves to take up their time.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 17:05:42 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? RonSonic wrote: > On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > >Roger Zoul wrote: > >> > >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. Now I > >> just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that covers all > >> the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the > >> others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long chain. > >> I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. > >> heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. > > > >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. > > Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as many would, > a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT." is not being pissy? > A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly insecure. I > think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? Mr. Zoul could have written, "Does the long chain on a recumbent fling dirty water on the rider while riding in the rain?" or something similar. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit) -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 21 Jan 2006 20:32:08 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: : > RonSonic wrote: : >> On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" : >> <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote: : >> : >> > : >> >Roger Zoul wrote: : >> >> : >> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for : >> >> me. Now I just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there : >> >> a book that covers all the different types. I know what swg, : >> >> lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the others you mentioned. Also, : >> >> I worry about that really, really long chain. I bet that get's : >> >> you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. heh, : >> >> riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. : >> > : >> >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. : >> : >> Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as : >> many would, a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. : > : > And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of : > fun. : > NOT." is not being pissy? : > : >> A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly : >> insecure. I think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. : > : > Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? Do you really think anyone in their right mind would have took my comment - in context, mind you - as that from someone who knew something about 'bent? Obviously, I was expressing in opinion as someone who is clueless about 'bents. : > : > Mr. Zoul could have written, "Does the long chain on a recumbent : > fling : > dirty water on the rider while riding in the rain?" or something : > similar. I could have written a lot of things. However, at the moment, I'm not searching out info. I'll do that later. : > : > -- : > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit) : > : > : > -- : > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 01:21:37 From: Mike Kruger Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137891942.177765.171020@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > RonSonic wrote: >> On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >Roger Zoul wrote: >> >> >> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. >> >> Now I >> >> just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that >> >> covers all >> >> the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know >> >> the >> >> others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long >> >> chain. >> >> I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour >> >> down. >> >> heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. >> > >> >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. >> >> Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as many >> would, >> a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. > > And writing "heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. > NOT." is not being pissy? > >> A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly >> insecure. I >> think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. > > Why should people with no knowledge post misinformation as fact? > If you re-read Roger's post, he's clearly not posting this as fact. He says, in the snipped you quoted above, "I need to get up to speed on bents". "I don't know the others you mentioned", "I worry about", "I bet...". These aren't phrases used by those who are trying to sound like they know something they don't know.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Roger Zoul wrote: > > That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. Now I > just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that covers all > the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the > others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long chain. > I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. > heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. I got caught in a heavy rain shower on a group ride on a recumbent [1] with the rest of the riders being on uprights. Since I was the only rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet above the shoulders. The rest of the riders were soaked everywhere. I did my first century on a rainy day on a bike like this [2], and did not suffer anymore than the upright riders with fenders, and less than those without fenders. A recumbent with properly fitted fenders [1] This bike: <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm >. [2] <http://www.ransbikes.com/Rocket.htm >. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)     Date: 22 Jan 2006 00:19:14 From: RonSonic Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On 21 Jan 2006 13:33:43 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: > >Roger Zoul wrote: >> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. Now I >> just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that covers all >> the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the >> others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long chain. >> I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. >> heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. > >Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. Dude, that was pissy. He's clearly a newb asking advise and has, as many would, a misperception. All the guy needed was disabused. A lot of you 'bents are entirely too freeking sensitive and majorly insecure. I think it's from your inferiority at cyclocross. Ron >I got caught in a heavy rain shower on a group ride on a recumbent [1] >with the rest of the riders being on uprights. Since I was the only >rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet >above the shoulders. The rest of the riders were soaked everywhere. > >I did my first century on a rainy day on a bike like this [2], and did >not suffer anymore than the upright riders with fenders, and less than >those without fenders. > >A recumbent with properly fitted fenders > >[1] This bike: <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>. >[2] <http://www.ransbikes.com/Rocket.htm>.     Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:30:20 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137879223.554158.256700@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Roger Zoul wrote: >> >> That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. Now >> I >> just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that covers >> all >> the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know >> the >> others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long >> chain. >> I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. >> heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT. > > Another recumbent "expert" who has (apparently) never ridden one. Geez, was that mentally taxing for you to figure out? > > I got caught in a heavy rain shower on a group ride on a recumbent [1] > with the rest of the riders being on uprights. Since I was the only > rider on a bicycle with a front fairing and fenders, I only got wet > above the shoulders. The rest of the riders were soaked everywhere. > > I did my first century on a rainy day on a bike like this [2], and did > not suffer anymore than the upright riders with fenders, and less than > those without fenders. > > A recumbent with properly fitted fenders > > [1] This bike: <http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm>. > [2] <http://www.ransbikes.com/Rocket.htm>. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit) >   Date: 21 Jan 2006 12:10:10 From: Bob Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: > >> Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > > > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? > > I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as > well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The > place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such > things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a > bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. > And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way > customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the > reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it > should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. > > --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReactionBicycles.com Your shop *sells* valve caps? I knew it's tough to make a living with a bike shop but damn! <g > Regards, Bob Hunt     Date: 21 Jan 2006 21:28:15 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: The Great Valve-Cap Conspiracy > Your shop *sells* valve caps? I knew it's tough to make a living with a > bike shop but damn! <g> > > Regards, > Bob Hunt Bob: One of those projects to get around to is my "Valve cap conspiracy" page. I don't know if I can do it over-the-top enough to make sure everyone realizes it's meant as a joke though. I've already taken the photos (clear jars of valve caps, priced exhorbitantly). But before somebody here still isn't in on the joke, no, we don't sell valve caps. They're too valuable. The only way you can get one is with a big purchase. Over $100, we'll give you a valve cap. Otherwise no way. Not even for $5. That's why they mysteriously disappear from your bike when you leave it in for repair... that's how we make sure people buy more stuff. Just kidding!!! --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA "Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com > wrote in message news:1137874210.842025.134850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >> >> Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? >> > >> > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? >> >> I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as >> well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The >> place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't >> such >> things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly >> build a >> bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. >> And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the >> way >> customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the >> reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it >> should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. >> >> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles >> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com > > > Your shop *sells* valve caps? I knew it's tough to make a living with a > bike shop but damn! <g> > > Regards, > Bob Hunt >       Date: 22 Jan 2006 00:32:56 From: mike Subject: Re: The Great Valve-Cap Conspiracy On 2006-01-21, Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote: >> Your shop *sells* valve caps? I knew it's tough to make a living with a >> bike shop but damn! <g> >> >> Regards, >> Bob Hunt > > Bob: One of those projects to get around to is my "Valve cap conspiracy" > page. I don't know if I can do it over-the-top enough to make sure everyone > realizes it's meant as a joke though. I've already taken the photos (clear > jars of valve caps, priced exhorbitantly). > > But before somebody here still isn't in on the joke, no, we don't sell valve > caps. They're too valuable. The only way you can get one is with a big > purchase. Over $100, we'll give you a valve cap. Otherwise no way. Not even > for $5. That's why they mysteriously disappear from your bike when you leave > it in for repair... that's how we make sure people buy more stuff. > > Just kidding!!! > > --Mike Jacoubowsky > Chain Reaction Bicycles > www.ChainReaction.com > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA > > "Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com> wrote in message > news:1137874210.842025.134850@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... >> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >>> >> Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? >>> > >>> > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? >>> >>> I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as >>> well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The >>> place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't >>> such >>> things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly >>> build a >>> bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. >>> And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the >>> way >>> customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the >>> reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it >>> should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. >>> >>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles >>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com >> >> >> Your shop *sells* valve caps? I knew it's tough to make a living with a >> bike shop but damn! <g> >> >> Regards, >> Bob Hunt >> > > Now my riding friends all tell me that the only one that rides with valve caps anyway is some dude named FRED!! so who cares what happens to the caps   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:26:54 From: Claire Petersky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. Well, my feeling is, I'd always deal with a customer in the shop before I dealt with one on the phone. The person in the shop has made the effort to at least come in, and is more likely to buy. Also, I confess, I am not much of a phone person. I want to see and handle the merchandise. Also, I appreciate the f2f interaction with the people in the shop. Maybe you're more of a phone/email type? -- Warm Regards, Claire Petersky http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/ Sponsor me for the Big Climb! See: www.active.com/donate/cpetersky06 See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky   Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:06:26 From: Steven M. O'Neill Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: >Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? I just came from there -- it's Bicycle Station on Vanderbilt Ave. in Brooklyn. The owner, Mike, is friendly, knowledgeable and refreshingly competent. Prices are even very reasonable. (I'm not related, just a satisfied customer.) Here's the info in Google local: http://bicyclestation.notlong.com -- Steven O'Neill steveo@panix.com Brooklyn, NY   Date: 21 Jan 2006 10:51:16 From: Ben Pfaff Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > writes: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. Once in a while I get irritated with my favorite bike shop. So then I go to the one across the street. Or the one down the street half a mile. Or the one down the street a couple of miles the other way. Or the one down the street a couple of miles past that one. Sounds like you just need to find a shop you're comfortable with. -- Ben Pfaff email: blp@cs.stanford.edu web: http://benpfaff.org   Date: 21 Jan 2006 18:30:59 From: ellis Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like > "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough > conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his > customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in > recumbents.... > > Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I > asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost > see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. > > Three weeks now and no response. > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? > > The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike > Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted > on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I > can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a > week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by > me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices > for "good as new" bikes. > > Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite > right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to > convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And > indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that > I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. > > Or another LBS, in Manhattan, the Pedal Pushers...Evan over there is a > nutcase. He's very charming and talkative like Peter Stull, but he's > got a weird switch which somehow gets flipped and he'll go schizo on > you with his passive-agressive act. One day I came in for a flat fix. > While he was ringing up the sale, I noticed that my tire cap was gone > and asked him where it was. He told me he put it outside the shop -- > ??? I asked him what he meant. He nodded incredulously at me and > repeated that he left my tire cap outside. Not only was it a bizzare > enough thing if true, but doubly strange was the fact that it wasn't > true, he never touched my bike until I brought it in. So I asked him > how could that be...he responded that, duh, how? I used my hands, you > know, hands, and unscrewed it and gently placed it on the sidewalk. So > I'm just really mystified at what's going on -- him swiping my card and > all all this time -- and I ask him why would he do that. > > He goes, well, where do you put your TV in your place? I'm like, what? > Where do you put your TV, he repeated. I asked him why. He said that > just as I have my reasons for placing things in my apartment, so he has > his reasons for organizing his shop the way he does (actually, it's > owned by a sour old fart, Roger, who's absent half the time -- another > neurotic cat). > > Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > What's even more bizzare is that there was a line of customers behind > me, every one non-plussed by the brief conversation. > > Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there > some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have > employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? > > Honestly, I don't get it. Now I'll have to contact the fella over in > State College, PA, for the Velotechnik SMGTe. I am not awarding ~$3K > (maybe even more, if I don't contain my newfound lust of Rohloff > gearboxes and other exotica) to folks who don't care enough for it to > return a goddamned phone call or e-mail! > Thirteen minute conversation? The longest I've ever talked to a bike shop on the phone was a minute. A bike shop owner is not a bartender. "Do you have this in stock? OK, good." "How much?" "What time you open until?" "Thanks. See ya." I buy lot of stuff online and do all my own work.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 09:58:48 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? cross post removed gotbent wrote: > ... > You're complaint about the loose headset is valid and I would have > chewed the shop guy a new asshole when he didn't step up to fix it, if > it was my bike. OTOH I've had to take my SM back to the shop ( not the > shop where the SM came from, btw) a few times before the Maggys were > bled properly. But the shop didn't give me any shit about follow up > service, and the owner apologized for not getting it right the first > time, so they are still number one in my book. I would be interested in hearing more details about this (off-list if you do not want to post in public). > It's been great shmoozing, but now I gotta go shovel a half foot of > snow out of the driveway. BAH! That's what that white stuff is! -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley (For a bit)   Date: 21 Jan 2006 11:42:57 From: The Wogster Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like > "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough > conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his > customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in > recumbents.... > > Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I > asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost > see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. > > Three weeks now and no response. > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? > > The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike > Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted > on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I > can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a > week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by > me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices > for "good as new" bikes. > > Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite > right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to > convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And > indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that > I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. Maybe it's your city, the folks at Bayview Cycle, here in Toronto, seem to be nice enough, and I didn't buy my bike there (long story)... I have bought a couple of other things there... More expensive then buying accessories at Mountain Equipment Co-op downtown, but then they are only a 20 minute ride away, where as M.E.C. is a 1 hour bus/subway/streetcar away.... I may take my bike to Bayview in the spring, the BB needs to be cleaned and lubed, and they say they will do it as part of a tuneup for $40. I think the real issue, is to find an LBS that is close enough to where you live, that you can and do go there on a regular basis, even if it's just to see what's new. If your regular enough that the guy working there, sees you come in, and calls you by name, then you are a regular, and regulars always get better service, then walk in customers, it's the way things are.... W   Date: 21 Jan 2006 16:14:33 From: max Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? In this instance, a meta-analysis based on the dimensions of a) message size and b) explicitly naming the LBS's and owners is sufficient to approximate an answer: yes. Dial your time machine to 1979*, travel back to score a bucket of 'luudes. return, take some and revisit the shops in question. Theory predicts a more satisfactory outcome. .max *i lost my TGIF soundtrack album, if you could bring me a copy i'd be grateful   Date: 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 From: Steve Katona Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like > "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough > conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his > customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in > recumbents.... > > Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I > asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost > see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. > > Three weeks now and no response. > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? > > The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike > Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted > on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I > can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a > week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by > me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices > for "good as new" bikes. > > Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite > right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to > convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And > indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that > I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. > > Or another LBS, in Manhattan, the Pedal Pushers...Evan over there is a > nutcase. He's very charming and talkative like Peter Stull, but he's > got a weird switch which somehow gets flipped and he'll go schizo on > you with his passive-agressive act. One day I came in for a flat fix. > While he was ringing up the sale, I noticed that my tire cap was gone > and asked him where it was. He told me he put it outside the shop -- > ??? I asked him what he meant. He nodded incredulously at me and > repeated that he left my tire cap outside. Not only was it a bizzare > enough thing if true, but doubly strange was the fact that it wasn't > true, he never touched my bike until I brought it in. So I asked him > how could that be...he responded that, duh, how? I used my hands, you > know, hands, and unscrewed it and gently placed it on the sidewalk. So > I'm just really mystified at what's going on -- him swiping my card and > all all this time -- and I ask him why would he do that. > > He goes, well, where do you put your TV in your place? I'm like, what? > Where do you put your TV, he repeated. I asked him why. He said that > just as I have my reasons for placing things in my apartment, so he has > his reasons for organizing his shop the way he does (actually, it's > owned by a sour old fart, Roger, who's absent half the time -- another > neurotic cat). > > Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > What's even more bizzare is that there was a line of customers behind > me, every one non-plussed by the brief conversation. > > Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there > some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have > employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? > > Honestly, I don't get it. Now I'll have to contact the fella over in > State College, PA, for the Velotechnik SMGTe. I am not awarding ~$3K > (maybe even more, if I don't contain my newfound lust of Rohloff > gearboxes and other exotica) to folks who don't care enough for it to > return a goddamned phone call or e-mail! > For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no one like Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many hours--more than 12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone conversations and dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. Highest quality. No churning. Always alternative suggestions for highest end components when suggested. I could go on and on but 'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles from him.     Date: 21 Jan 2006 16:21:05 From: Jeff Starr Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 -0700, Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com > wrote: >> >For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no one like >Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO >http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html >I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many hours--more than >12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone conversations and >dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. Highest quality. No churning. >Always alternative suggestions for highest end components when >suggested. I could go on and on but 'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles >from him. If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about recommending NYC??? to him. This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does some trolling, and gone again. I think last time it was boats swamping, and mistreatment. As others have said, when bad things constantly happen to one person, you have to consider the person. Life is Good! Jeff       Date: 21 Jan 2006 09:43:01 From: Steve Katona Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Jeff Starr wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 -0700, Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com> > wrote: > > >> For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no one like >> Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO >> http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html >> I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many hours--more than >> 12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone conversations and >> dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. Highest quality. No churning. >> Always alternative suggestions for highest end components when >> suggested. I could go on and on but 'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles >>from him. > > If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about recommending > NYC??? to him. > > This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does some > trolling, and gone again. I think last time it was boats swamping, and > mistreatment. As others have said, when bad things constantly happen > to one person, you have to consider the person. > > > Life is Good! > Jeff I doubted NYC would travel to Woodland Park but I just wanted to get this good word out on Angletech. Here in Albuquerque we have both kinds of bike shop employees--the pierced, tattooed (btw, I have 36 and both ears but no eye brows pierced) bleached in high heeled doc tins with attitude and the shop guy or girl who will deal with you without judgemental b.s. and a desire to help. Some folks don't realize that help without a purchase should be requested in small doses and graciously received. When a potential purchase amounts to = > than $2000 the customer does have a right to a little more time than what it takes to show a few pairs of shoes. Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm 64? Steve         Date: 21 Jan 2006 15:12:58 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com > wrote: : > Jeff Starr wrote: : >> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 -0700, Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com> : >> wrote: : >> : >> : >>> For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no one : >>> like Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO : >>> http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html : >>> I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many hours--more : >>> than 12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone : >>> conversations and dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. : >>> Highest quality. No churning. Always alternative suggestions for : >>> highest end components when suggested. I could go on and on but : >>>'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles from him. : >> : >> If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about recommending : >> NYC??? to him. : >> : >> This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does some : >> trolling, and gone again. I think last time it was boats swamping, : >> and mistreatment. As others have said, when bad things constantly : >> happen : >> to one person, you have to consider the person. : >> : >> : >> Life is Good! : >> Jeff : > I doubted NYC would travel to Woodland Park but I just wanted to get : > this good word out on Angletech. Here in Albuquerque we have both : > kinds of bike shop employees--the pierced, tattooed (btw, I have 36 : > and both ears but no eye brows pierced) bleached in high heeled doc : > tins with attitude and the shop guy or girl who will deal with : > you without judgemental b.s. and a desire to help. Some folks don't : > realize that : > help without a purchase should be requested in small doses and : > graciously received. When a potential purchase amounts to => than : > $2000 the customer does have a right to a little more time than what : > it takes to show a few pairs of shoes. : > Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm 64? : > Steve Thanks for the info on Angletech. I've saved it away for the day when I'll buy a 'bent. I'll make an advance trip to go visit him too (I live in SC).           Date: 21 Jan 2006 13:25:42 From: Steve Katona Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Roger Zoul wrote: > Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com> wrote: > :> Jeff Starr wrote: > :>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 -0700, Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com> > :>> wrote: > :>> > :>> > :>>> For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no one > :>>> like Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO > :>>> http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html > :>>> I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many hours--more > :>>> than 12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone > :>>> conversations and dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. > :>>> Highest quality. No churning. Always alternative suggestions for > :>>> highest end components when suggested. I could go on and on but > :>>>'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles from him. > :>> > :>> If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about recommending > :>> NYC??? to him. > :>> > :>> This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does some > :>> trolling, and gone again. I think last time it was boats swamping, > :>> and mistreatment. As others have said, when bad things constantly > :>> happen > :>> to one person, you have to consider the person. > :>> > :>> > :>> Life is Good! > :>> Jeff > :> I doubted NYC would travel to Woodland Park but I just wanted to get > :> this good word out on Angletech. Here in Albuquerque we have both > :> kinds of bike shop employees--the pierced, tattooed (btw, I have 36 > :> and both ears but no eye brows pierced) bleached in high heeled doc > :> tins with attitude and the shop guy or girl who will deal with > :> you without judgemental b.s. and a desire to help. Some folks don't > :> realize that > :> help without a purchase should be requested in small doses and > :> graciously received. When a potential purchase amounts to => than > :> $2000 the customer does have a right to a little more time than what > :> it takes to show a few pairs of shoes. > :> Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm 64? > :> Steve > > Thanks for the info on Angletech. I've saved it away for the day when I'll > buy a 'bent. I'll make an advance trip to go visit him too (I live in SC). > > Kelvin has a visit he calls recumbent 101. You need to make a reservation. During that approximately hour and half to two hour visit you'll ride one of each of the various types of bents: swb, lwb, uss. ass, low, medium and high bottom bracket. He asks you to ride each several times. The first time just to ride; the second time to feel what's special about the bike as a different experience from the other bikes; the third time is to ride your top 2 or 3 to decide on your favorite 'type.' I did this and there was no pressure to buy. He encourages questions and takes the time to answer. What more can you ask? He wants to take a stock bike and upgrade components until you reach your financial comfort zone to build you the bike you've dreamt. Does this sound too good to be true? I did it twice and both times I think I got the best I could've and much better than I could've designed myself.             Date: 21 Jan 2006 16:07:28 From: Roger Zoul Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com > wrote: : > Roger Zoul wrote: : >> Steve Katona <srkatona@swcp.com> wrote: : >> :> Jeff Starr wrote: : >> :>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:35:28 -0700, Steve Katona : >> :>> <srkatona@swcp.com> wrote: : >> :>> : >> :>> : >> :>>> For anyone who can manage the travel, if required, there is no : >> :>>> one like Kelvin Clark of Angletech in Woodland Park, CO : >> :>>> http://www.angletechcycles.com/index.html : >> :>>> I have purchased 2 bents from him. I have spent many : >> :>>> hours--more : >> :>>> than 12--at his shop riding and talking, dozens of phone : >> :>>> conversations and dozens of emails. Satisfaction guaranteed. : >> :>>> Highest quality. No churning. Always alternative suggestions : >> :>>> for highest end components when suggested. I could go on and : >> :>>>on but 'nuff said.' And I live 400 miles from him. : >> :>> : >> :>> If you really like Kevin, you will think twice about : >> :>> recommending NYC??? to him. : >> :>> : >> :>> This guy shows up every few months, causes a commotion, does : >> :>> some trolling, and gone again. I think last time it was boats : >> :>> swamping, : >> :>> and mistreatment. As others have said, when bad things : >> :>> constantly happen : >> :>> to one person, you have to consider the person. : >> :>> : >> :>> : >> :>> Life is Good! : >> :>> Jeff : >> :> I doubted NYC would travel to Woodland Park but I just wanted to : >> :> get this good word out on Angletech. Here in Albuquerque we have : >> :> both : >> :> kinds of bike shop employees--the pierced, tattooed (btw, I have : >> :> 36 : >> :> and both ears but no eye brows pierced) bleached in high heeled : >> :> doc tins with attitude and the shop guy or girl who will deal : >> :> with : >> :> you without judgemental b.s. and a desire to help. Some folks : >> :> don't realize that : >> :> help without a purchase should be requested in small doses and : >> :> graciously received. When a potential purchase amounts to => than : >> :> $2000 the customer does have a right to a little more time than : >> :> what : >> :> it takes to show a few pairs of shoes. : >> :> Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm 64? : >> :> Steve : >> : >> Thanks for the info on Angletech. I've saved it away for the day : >> when I'll buy a 'bent. I'll make an advance trip to go visit him : >> too (I live in SC). : >> : >> : > Kelvin has a visit he calls recumbent 101. You need to make a : > reservation. During that approximately hour and half to two hour : > visit you'll ride one of each of the various types of bents: swb, : > lwb, uss. : > ass, low, medium and high bottom bracket. He asks you to ride each : > several times. The first time just to ride; the second time to feel : > what's special about the bike as a different experience from the : > other bikes; the third time is to ride your top 2 or 3 to decide on : > your : > favorite 'type.' I did this and there was no pressure to buy. He : > encourages questions and takes the time to answer. What more can you : > ask? He wants to take a stock bike and upgrade components until you : > reach your financial comfort zone to build you the bike you've : > dreamt. : > Does this sound too good to be true? I did it twice and both times I : > think I got the best I could've and much better than I could've : > designed myself. That sounds perfect, really. I do see how anyone could ask for me. Now I just need to get up to speed on 'bents. Isn't there a book that covers all the different types. I know what swg, lwb, clwb, but don't quite know the others you mentioned. Also, I worry about that really, really long chain. I bet that get's you majorly dirty if you get caught out in a pour down. heh, riding a 'bent in the rain as got to be a lot of fun. NOT.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 07:18:17 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > ... > War of 1812...Mexican-American War...Spanish-American War...Phillipine > Insurrection...Boxer Rebellion...The Great War...The Big > One...Korea...Vietnam...Dominican Republic...Grenada...Gulf I and > II.... You forgot Panama - George H. W. Bush turning on his old CIA "asset" Manuel Noriega. -- Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley     Date: 22 Jan 2006 01:21:45 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137856697.221295.230650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > NYC XYZ wrote: >> ... >> War of 1812...Mexican-American War...Spanish-American War...Phillipine >> Insurrection...Boxer Rebellion...The Great War...The Big >> One...Korea...Vietnam...Dominican Republic...Grenada...Gulf I and >> II.... > > You forgot Panama - George H. W. Bush turning on his old CIA "asset" > Manuel Noriega. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley Newsgroups trimmed. There can never be too many wars for a great nation like the US to be engaged in on behalf of Western Civilization. Would that there were a few more - one with Iran for instance. We should also kick Syria's ass while we are at it. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 21 Jan 2006 06:47:34 From: gotbent Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? cross post removed Yo NYC XYZ, you're ready to piss and moan about a lot of stuff, but show a lot of thin skin when people don't agree with you and criticize you. I have to admit that there are a few bike shop guys who piss me off by being arrogant or aloof. I stay away from their stores! I go where the staff earns my bucks. So it seems to me that your complaints should go back to the bike shops, not here; but maybe it's a New York kinda thing. New Yorkers just seem to like to kvetch about everything. It seems that most of us don't care so much to hear your whining, though. You're beginning to sound a bit like a major jerk that posted here about his carbon M5. He was a total putz, and didn't like being told that he was. Kinda like Ed Dolan, but without Ed's staying power. Then Bram Moens finally posted witih the real story and our pet putz was exposed for the total shmuck he was! I wonder what Peter Stull's take on that conversation is? Go buy the Streetmachine. I have a Speedmachine and since I upgraded the brakes and a few other components, I think it's a fabulous piece of engineering and a fine ride. BTW three thou for a bike isn't all that much anymore. Have you taken a look at how much a good suspended mountain bike costs? You're complaint about the loose headset is valid and I would have chewed the shop guy a new asshole when he didn't step up to fix it, if it was my bike. OTOH I've had to take my SM back to the shop ( not the shop where the SM came from, btw) a few times before the Maggys were bled properly. But the shop didn't give me any shit about follow up service, and the owner apologized for not getting it right the first time, so they are still number one in my book. It's been great shmoozing, but now I gotta go shovel a half foot of snow out of the driveway. BAH!     Date: 22 Jan 2006 01:38:08 From: Edward Dolan Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? cross post removed "gotbent" <krazylowguy@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:1137854854.668931.80710@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... [...] > BTW three thou for a bike isn't all that much anymore. Have you taken a > look at how much a good suspended mountain bike costs? By the way, three thousand for a bike is an outrageous price. But it is guys like Gotbent who obviously has more money than brains who keep the high end recumbent manufacturers going. But is not that always the case. The guys with the money seem to have no sts about how to spend it other than to throw it away on conspicuous consumption. In an ideal universe God would let guys like Gotbent earn the money and guys like Ed Dolan spend it. I know the value of a dollar even if no one else does. That is because my mother did not raise any fools. When I think of how hard money was to come by as a kid and of how easy others spend it today on foolishness ... well, it just makes me sick! Christ! I never paid more than two thousand for a car in my life and here we have this fool Gotbent telling us that three thousand is a fine price for a g.d. bicycle. I mean, how crazy can you get? Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota   Date: 21 Jan 2006 06:33:46 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Rich wrote: > NYC XYZ wrote: > > > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Maybe he went out of business talking to people that weren't buying stuff. > > > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > > door. > > How much of his time did you expect? He's in business, and his first > priority should be the people that made the effort to get to his store. > He sounds friendly enough to me. The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit suicide, they don't go outta biz. > > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > > > WTF?! > > They're running a business, not a chat room. > > > Are my expectations out of order? > > I think so. > > Rich     Date: 21 Jan 2006 19:25:04 From: G.T. Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > suicide, they don't go outta biz. > I've seen guys stay in a shop literally for hours without ever intending to purchase a thing. You would entertain these guys for that long? Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons     Date: 22 Jan 2006 01:40:35 From: Tom Kunich Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in message news:1137854026.865835.201100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > suicide, they don't go outta biz. Of course you're right but then it's a lot easier to make a living in Boulder than in New York City. When selling motorcycles I've spent two hours going over a dozen concerns of a customer who would "be back in the morning" to find out that he bought the same motorcycle down the street for $5 less (literally). Eventually I started treating customers the way they should be treated - with the same respect they gave me. And all of the horse's asses who wasted my time stopped coming in. And man if the profit didn't go up!     Date: 21 Jan 2006 17:35:37 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > suicide, they don't go outta biz. Would be nice if that could always be the case, but... there are times when a conversation goes from "customer" mode to "chat" and, realistically, the customer whose needs haven't been served take precedence over someone in "chat" mode. It really shouldn't be that big a deal either; it's not that difficult to gracefully disconnect yourself from such a conversation by letting the person know that you'd like to hear more about it later, but right now you've got to take care of another customer. I don't think that's rude, and I'll bet the majority of people (who you might have to cut a bit short) would respect that, since they've been in the shoes of the person who has to wait... and wait... and wait... while someone is having a friendly conversation that appears to have little to do with business. In all seriousness, there are very few things that can be resolved over the phone better in a 15-minute conversation than 5. In most cases, anything that detailed needs to be dealt with in-person, in the store. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in message news:1137854026.865835.201100@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Rich wrote: >> NYC XYZ wrote: >> >> > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? >> >> Maybe he went out of business talking to people that weren't buying >> stuff. >> >> >> > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him >> > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone >> > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the >> > door. >> >> How much of his time did you expect? He's in business, and his first >> priority should be the people that made the effort to get to his store. >> He sounds friendly enough to me. > > The converstion in a retail place should in ALL cases be ended by the > 'customer', not the employee. A bike shop is supposed to be the expert, > the person that listens and then, perhaps, sells. Sometimes it IS a > chat room, and that's how you grow your biz. If a person is comfy just > talking, then he will be comfy later giving you money. Pretty simple. > NOTHING is so important in a toy store, that the employee shuts a > person down, in order to talk to another, even if they have a $20 bill > stuck in their nose, waiting to buy. The surly attitude displayed by > some in this thread is WHY many bike shops go under. They commit > suicide, they don't go outta biz. > >> >> > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, >> > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last >> > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, >> > and now this dealer is incommunicado. >> > >> > WTF?! >> >> They're running a business, not a chat room. >> >> > Are my expectations out of order? >> >> I think so. >> >> Rich >   Date: 21 Jan 2006 06:28:53 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like > "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough > conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his > customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in > recumbents.... > > Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I > asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost > see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. > > Three weeks now and no response. > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? > > The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike > Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted > on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I > can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a > week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by > me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices > for "good as new" bikes. > > Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite > right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to > convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And > indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that > I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. > > Or another LBS, in Manhattan, the Pedal Pushers...Evan over there is a > nutcase. He's very charming and talkative like Peter Stull, but he's > got a weird switch which somehow gets flipped and he'll go schizo on > you with his passive-agressive act. One day I came in for a flat fix. > While he was ringing up the sale, I noticed that my tire cap was gone > and asked him where it was. He told me he put it outside the shop -- > ??? I asked him what he meant. He nodded incredulously at me and > repeated that he left my tire cap outside. Not only was it a bizzare > enough thing if true, but doubly strange was the fact that it wasn't > true, he never touched my bike until I brought it in. So I asked him > how could that be...he responded that, duh, how? I used my hands, you > know, hands, and unscrewed it and gently placed it on the sidewalk. So > I'm just really mystified at what's going on -- him swiping my card and > all all this time -- and I ask him why would he do that. > > He goes, well, where do you put your TV in your place? I'm like, what? > Where do you put your TV, he repeated. I asked him why. He said that > just as I have my reasons for placing things in my apartment, so he has > his reasons for organizing his shop the way he does (actually, it's > owned by a sour old fart, Roger, who's absent half the time -- another > neurotic cat). > > Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > What's even more bizzare is that there was a line of customers behind > me, every one non-plussed by the brief conversation. > > Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there > some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have > employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? No. It does seem that most bike shops are filled with either dolts or surly putzes that are there to prove something...some sort of a power trip about the 'knowledgeable vs the not' or something. Even in Boulder we hear stories about some shops, and why they'll never go in 'there' again. I think great bike shops or stores, kinda by definition, don't do well in 'talking', I think sometimes from pressure to sell, sell, sell. > > Honestly, I don't get it. Now I'll have to contact the fella over in > State College, PA, for the Velotechnik SMGTe. I am not awarding ~$3K > (maybe even more, if I don't contain my newfound lust of Rohloff > gearboxes and other exotica) to folks who don't care enough for it to > return a goddamned phone call or e-mail!     Date: 21 Jan 2006 10:51:08 From: Matt O'Toole Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 06:28:53 -0800, Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote: > No. It does seem that most bike shops are filled with either dolts or > surly putzes that are there to prove something...some sort of a power trip > about the 'knowledgeable vs the not' or something. Even in Boulder we hear > stories about some shops, and why they'll never go in 'there' again. I > think great bike shops or stores, kinda by definition, don't do well in > 'talking', I think sometimes from pressure to sell, sell, sell. Well, the good ones do both well, but people with that combination of skills can make more money almost anywhere else. These days the quality of bike shop staff, like coffeehouse staff, may be explained by the "bad barista index": http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5073210 Matt O.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 07:17:54 From: Paul Cassel Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > If you could see yourself as these folks see you, then you'd understand that they are all there, but you won't find them without a serious change in attitude. I like the valve cap story - very illustrative.   Date: 21 Jan 2006 12:11:04 From: justindavid Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On 20 Jan 2006 18:28:20 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote: > >Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > >Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling >that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your >money. If you've never met a friendly person working in a bike shop you must have one hell of a personality.   Date: 20 Jan 2006 23:21:13 From: Tom Keats Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > writes: > Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? cheers, Tom -- -- Nothing is safe from me. Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca     Date: 21 Jan 2006 08:24:30 From: Mike Jacoubowsky Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? >> Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com "Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote in message news:9dnsqd.l5f.ln@vcn.bc.ca... > In article <1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, > "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com> writes: > >> Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? > > These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? > > > cheers, > Tom > > -- > -- Nothing is safe from me. > Above address is just a spam midden. > I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca       Date: 21 Jan 2006 21:30:25 From: The Wogster Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >>>Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? >> >>These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? > > > I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as > well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The > place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such > things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a > bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. > And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way > customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the > reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it > should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. > Maybe a bike shop, should take the ones they find in the shop, and put them in a jar by the register, with a note that if you need one, help yourself. Then the customer who has one forgotten, will just come back, get one, and it saves the environment, from having all those millions of valve caps going to land fill. And saves the shop, from the embarrassment, of forgetting one. Personally I never throw a nut, bolt or screw away, I toss them in a small parts organizer (value caps go in there too), when I need a bolt, nut screw or valve cap I go to my organizer first, 99% of the time, I find what I need in there, which saves me a trip to the local hardware store ( or the home depot, since the local hardware store is a block away, I go there, it's shorter then the walk across the parking lot at the home despot ) and of course saves wear and tear on the car..... W         Date: 22 Jan 2006 17:34:17 From: Mike Rice Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:30:25 -0500, The Wogster <wogsterca@yahoo.ca > wrote: >Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: >>>>Now I ask you all; does that sound crazy or what? >>> >>>These dealers you've been dealing with are all recumbent people? >> >> >> I was thinking that myself. Peter Stull is definitely into recumbents, as >> well as the other shop he mentioned (with recumbent in their name). The >> place he got the Trek 1000 sounded pretty normal; there really aren't such >> things as "floor models" in bike shops... because you can't properly build a >> bike on the spot, you need to have your inventory built up ahead of time. >> And the guy "stealing" valve caps? A common inside-joke at shops is the way >> customers believe there's some big black ket for valve caps, and the >> reason we leave them off (which happens accidentally more often than it >> should) is so we can score big bucks selling them. >> > >Maybe a bike shop, should take the ones they find in the shop, and put >them in a jar by the register, with a note that if you need one, help >yourself. Then the customer who has one forgotten, will just come back, >get one, and it saves the environment, from having all those millions of >valve caps going to land fill. And saves the shop, from the >embarrassment, of forgetting one. My LBS left off a valve stem cover. Next time I passed by I stopped in. They laughed, and took me in the back, to a large jar of valve stem covers and said 'Take your pick". No problem. Indiana Mike > >Personally I never throw a nut, bolt or screw away, I toss them in a >small parts organizer (value caps go in there too), when I need a bolt, >nut screw or valve cap I go to my organizer first, 99% of the time, I >find what I need in there, which saves me a trip to the local hardware >store ( or the home depot, since the local hardware store is a block >away, I go there, it's shorter then the walk across the parking lot at >the home despot ) and of course saves wear and tear on the car..... > >W > > > > >   Date: 21 Jan 2006 07:17:03 From: Andrew Price Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote - > Tell me, is there some bike shop etiquette I didn't observe? Is there > some kind of secret bike shop salute or handshake I should have > employed? Did I bother them somehow by smiling? > I think the all time difficult LBS guy is depicted in the Canadian movie "Two Seconds". The shop proprietlor, an ex road racer with considerable attitude, confronts Miss Downhill Racer with equal but opposite attitude. Breathtaking rudeness from him, but there is a reason ... Whilst demolishing a bottle of scotch after hours in the shop, each argues how their particular discpline gave true meaning to the concept of suffering on a bicycle. Friendship and mutual respect follow - liked that bit of the movie. best, Andrew   Date: 20 Jan 2006 22:01:42 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? k wrote: > > OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting about > how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly or > wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. Goodness, I'm glad you don't design bicycles for a living the way your brain works. > You're right, it's not the norm. You're wrong, I wasn't talking about that. Why do you pick and choose what you wish to ignore? > I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that > these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret handshake, > as you put it. You still haven't pointed out a single instance of what I'd done wrong. > Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. Your brain is toast. > -- > k Scardiglia > > conscious@mindless.com     Date: 21 Jan 2006 07:47:44 From: Little Meow Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote in news:1137823301.949815.67280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > > k wrote: >> >> OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting about >> how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly or >> wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. > > Goodness, I'm glad you don't design bicycles for a living the way your > brain works. > >> You're right, it's not the norm. > > You're wrong, I wasn't talking about that. > > Why do you pick and choose what you wish to ignore? > >> I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that >> these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret handshake, >> as you put it. > > You still haven't pointed out a single instance of what I'd done wrong. > >> Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. > > Your brain is toast. > >> -- >> k Scardiglia >> >> conscious@mindless.com > You are correct. The problem is with them, not you. Those non-plussed customers must also have something wrong with them. They are not as perceptive as you, so they are unable to recognize when they are not receiving adequate service. Unfortunately, a shopper with your level of sophistication will rarely encounter a shop that is adequate.       Date: 21 Jan 2006 15:12:26 From: Phil Holman Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? "Little Meow" <meow@meow.meow > wrote in message news:9752F81B6750900E7FF@127.0.0.1... > NYC XYZ wrote in > news:1137823301.949815.67280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > >> >> k wrote: >>> >>> OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting >>> about >>> how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly >>> or >>> wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. >> >> Goodness, I'm glad you don't design bicycles for a living the way >> your >> brain works. >> >>> You're right, it's not the norm. >> >> You're wrong, I wasn't talking about that. >> >> Why do you pick and choose what you wish to ignore? >> >>> I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that >>> these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret >>> handshake, >>> as you put it. >> >> You still haven't pointed out a single instance of what I'd done >> wrong. >> >>> Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. >> >> Your brain is toast. >> >>> -- >>> k Scardiglia >>> >>> conscious@mindless.com >> > > You are correct. The problem is with them, not you. Those non-plussed > customers must also have something wrong with them. They are not as > perceptive as you, so they are unable to recognize when they are not > receiving adequate service. Unfortunately, a shopper with your level > of sophistication will rarely encounter a shop that is adequate. IOW....... get real. Is that what you mean? Phil H         Date: 22 Jan 2006 02:55:08 From: Little Meow Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Phil Holman wrote in news:yL2dnUjtdY5AIk_eRVn-vA@comcast.com: > > "Little Meow" <meow@meow.meow> wrote in message > news:9752F81B6750900E7FF@127.0.0.1... >> NYC XYZ wrote in >> news:1137823301.949815.67280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: >> >>> >>> k wrote: >>>> >>>> OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting >>>> about >>>> how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly >>>> or >>>> wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. >>> >>> Goodness, I'm glad you don't design bicycles for a living the way >>> your >>> brain works. >>> >>>> You're right, it's not the norm. >>> >>> You're wrong, I wasn't talking about that. >>> >>> Why do you pick and choose what you wish to ignore? >>> >>>> I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that >>>> these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret >>>> handshake, >>>> as you put it. >>> >>> You still haven't pointed out a single instance of what I'd done >>> wrong. >>> >>>> Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. >>> >>> Your brain is toast. >>> >>>> -- >>>> k Scardiglia >>>> >>>> conscious@mindless.com >>> >> >> You are correct. The problem is with them, not you. Those non-plussed >> customers must also have something wrong with them. They are not as >> perceptive as you, so they are unable to recognize when they are not >> receiving adequate service. Unfortunately, a shopper with your level >> of sophistication will rarely encounter a shop that is adequate. > > IOW....... get real. Is that what you mean? > Not really. Only a true princess would be sensitive enough to feel the pea.   Date: 20 Jan 2006 20:57:28 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Capri wrote: > > > > You gotta take your bike into a bike shop to fix a flat? No wonder no > one wants to spend much time with you. But I'm not asking them to spend time with me. And what's wrong with having a bike shop fix flats? Do you think it's unmanly to use a map, too?     Date: 21 Jan 2006 12:10:55 From: G.T. Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Capri wrote: > >> >> >>You gotta take your bike into a bike shop to fix a flat? No wonder no >>one wants to spend much time with you. > > > > But I'm not asking them to spend time with me. > > And what's wrong with having a bike shop fix flats? > Because you probably use it as an excuse to annoy the fuck out of the shop personnel. Greg -- "All my time I spent in heaven Revelries of dance and wine Waking to the sound of laughter Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons   Date: 20 Jan 2006 20:28:06 From: Capri Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? <<One day I came in for a flat fix. >> You gotta take your bike into a bike shop to fix a flat? No wonder no one wants to spend much time with you.   Date: 20 Jan 2006 20:05:55 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? k wrote: > > > -- > So, who or what is the common denominator in all these stories? > > k Scardiglia > > conscious@mindless.com War of 1812...Mexican-American War...Spanish-American War...Phillipine Insurrection...Boxer Rebellion...The Great War...The Big One...Korea...Vietnam...Dominican Republic...Grenada...Gulf I and II.... Who's the common denominator? Just stick to the facts. It's easy to stick your tongue out and close your eyes, but unless you have any suggestions as to what I could have done differently, try not to feel so smug. You won't look good with egg all over your face.     Date: 21 Jan 2006 00:37:16 From: Mark Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137816355.023991.27710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >, jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says... > > k wrote: > > > > > > -- > > So, who or what is the common denominator in all these stories? > > > > k Scardiglia > > > > conscious@mindless.com > > > War of 1812...Mexican-American War...Spanish-American War...Phillipine > Insurrection...Boxer Rebellion...The Great War...The Big > One...Korea...Vietnam...Dominican Republic...Grenada...Gulf I and > II.... > > Who's the common denominator? > > Just stick to the facts. It's easy to stick your tongue out and close > your eyes, but unless you have any suggestions as to what I could have > done differently, try not to feel so smug. > > You won't look good with egg all over your face. > > OK. The facts, then. You spent probably 600 or 700 words lamenting about how four or five or six bike shops in a row either treated you badly or wouldn't do business with you or behaved bizarrely. You're right, it's not the norm. I could have pointed it out more gently, but the bottom line is that these interactions are two way affairs and there's no secret handshake, as you put it. Sunny side up, dry toast on the side. -- k Scardiglia conscious@mindless.com   Date: 20 Jan 2006 22:54:27 From: Mark Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? In article <1137810500.881951.235570@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >, jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says... > > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? > > Actually, I've never known one myself, but somehow I get the feeling > that these guys are at least supposed to care where you spend your > money. > > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. He never answered 90% of my questions -- very basic ones like > "how much does it cost?" -- though it was an interesting enough > conversation otherwise where he told me about his bike races, his > customer from Australia, the guy who works for him that specializes in > recumbents.... > > Before he excused himself with the near-equivalent of French Leave, I > asked him whether I might wrap things up via e-mail. I could almost > see him shrug casually -- "sure," he said. > > Three weeks now and no response. > > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! > > Are my expectations out of order? > > The LBS on the next block from me where I got my Trek 1000c, the Bike > Stop in Astoria, was another crazy place. The owner himself insisted > on selling me the display model. It was in good condition, far as I > can tell (though by the time I'd noticed some ks and scratches, a > week had gone by and I couldn't be totally sure they weren't caused by > me somehow), but apparently all bike shops insist you pay "new" prices > for "good as new" bikes. > > Small matter that, sure enough -- but then the headset wasn't quite > right. Turned out to be defective. But Gus, the owner, tried to > convince me that its being loose was nothing to worry about! And > indeed, I could ride the bike fine...but it just didn't feel right that > I had a moving part where things are tight on other bikes. > > Or another LBS, in Manhattan, the Pedal Pushers...Evan over there is a > nutcase. He's very charming and talkative like Peter Stull, but he's > got a weird switch which somehow gets flipped and he'll go schizo on > you with his passive-agressive act. One day I came in for a flat fix. > While he was ringing up the sale, I noticed that my tire cap was gone -- So, who or what is the common denominator in all these stories? k Scardiglia conscious@mindless.com   Date: 20 Jan 2006 19:42:31 From: NYC XYZ Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? Rich wrote: > > > Maybe he went out of business talking to people that weren't buying stuff. LOL -- he obviously went out of business 'cause he didn't know how to sell to people he was already talking to! > How much of his time did you expect? As much time as it takes to answer my questions, 90% of which he didn't. > He's in business, and his first > priority should be the people that made the effort to get to his store. Oh, the world's supposed to beat a path to his door, even when they call first to make arrangements for a visit? > He sounds friendly enough to me. Of course. You're not very friendly yourself. > They're running a business, not a chat room. So why talk my ear off about his life? > I think so. Tell me which bike shop you own, etc. -- I'll be sure not to patronize. > Rich   Date: 20 Jan 2006 20:00:44 From: Rich Subject: Re: Bad Bike Shop Manners?? NYC XYZ wrote: > Whatever happened to the friendly neighborhood bike dealer? Maybe he went out of business talking to people that weren't buying stuff. > I contacted Peter Stull, "The Bicycleman," and though I found him > friendly at first, after a long ten or thirteen-minute telephone > conversation he hangs up on me 'cause a customer suddenly walked in the > door. How much of his time did you expect? He's in business, and his first priority should be the people that made the effort to get to his store. He sounds friendly enough to me. > So I get in touch with another dealer, Northeast Recumbents. E-mailed, > phoned, left messages...nothing. Finally got through to him last > weekend, set up a look-see tomorrow. But there's rain in the forecast, > and now this dealer is incommunicado. > > WTF?! They're running a business, not a chat room. > Are my expectations out of order? I think so. Rich