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Main
Date: 23 Oct 2005 19:41:20
From: rBOB
Subject: Chain advice please
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I have plenty of experience working on upright bikes but I have not
replaced the chain on my first bent yet. I have the following
questions:
1. Do I need to buy a special chain or can I combine SRAM PC-58 chains?
(This is an 8 speed cassette and I have 10 new SRAM PC-58 chains in my
parts bin so I would prefer to use those if possible.)
2. If OK to combine chains, do I use additional the super links (or
whatever they are called) or is there another preferred way (such as
using the chain tool to combine the chains)?
3. I usually get about 2000 miles per chain on an upright. If the bent
chain is twice as long, should I expect to get 4000 miles out if under
similar conditions? This question is largely academic since I replace
my chains based on stretch, not mileage. I just thought it was worth
soliciting opinions about it.
Thanks.
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Date: 31 Oct 2005 17:59:00
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Just zis Guy, you know? aka Guy Chapman wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:39:46 +0000, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> said in <3sm3fnFlttt4U1@individual.net>:
>
> >Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
> >places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
> >Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
> >links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
> >/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
> >shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
> >and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
> >But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
> >used frequently and easily without undue problems.
>
> Shimano 9-speeds allegedly require special treatment, but I have
> frequently split and rejoined S[RAM]ram 9-speed chains with a chain tool
> and it's trivially easy, and I've never broken one either.
An upright rider I know had the 9-speed Shimano chain on his bicycle
break on an invitational ride. I spent 20+ minutes with a Park CT-5
chain tool [1] fruitlessly trying to piece the chain together (neither
the special Shimano pins nor non-Shimano reusable links were at hand).
I gave up and lent the rider money to buy a new SRAM chain (Power Link
included) from the SAG.
[1] <http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=5&item=CT-5 >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk." - G. Daniels
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Date: 30 Oct 2005 05:31:43
From: rBOB
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Sheldon, thanks for the clarifications. Very informative!
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Date: 29 Oct 2005 10:20:14
From:
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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The Red Planet wrote:
> If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
> The pins used in SRAM chains have a tight fit and can be reused. The
> thing to be aware of though is that one supports the chain in order to
> avoid damage. This is common practice with cycle builders. Quick links
> are used to make it easier to remove a chain, but they are not needed.
> This technique is for instance used at velomobiel.nl and at Re-Cycle,
> both cycle builders in the Netherlands.
What was quoted from my site was:
> "To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
> tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
> remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
> plate."
I said "difficult" not "impossible." A person who is careful and
skilled in the use of a chain tool can generally re-join Sram chains
without damaging them, but it requires careful alignment and a
sensitive touch on the chain tool to make sure the rivet is going in
straight.
Being a bit of a cheapskate, I sometimes make chains up for my personal
use by joining cut off scraps from lots of new chains. I have examined
the rivets and cage plates with a microscope and not observed any
damage from this.
However, I do not do this on customers' bikes as much for reasons of
potential liability as anything else.
The chain tool is a tool that requires more skill than most. It's one
tool I'll never lend because a careless or insensitive user can easily
wreck one. I still own and sometimes use an old Cyclo chain tool that
I bought when I was in high school more than 40 years ago.
I tend to be rather experimental in configuring my own bikes, but
conservative when dealing with customers' bikes where somebody else's
skin is on the line.
Sheldon "Standing By What I Wrote" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: 31 Oct 2005 08:39:46
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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CaptBike@sheldonbrown.com wrote:
> I said "difficult" not "impossible." A person who is careful and
> skilled in the use of a chain tool can generally re-join Sram chains
> without damaging them, but it requires careful alignment and a
> sensitive touch on the chain tool to make sure the rivet is going in
> straight.
Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
used frequently and easily without undue problems.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 31 Oct 2005 23:51:08
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 08:39:46 +0000, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > said in <3sm3fnFlttt4U1@individual.net>:
>Case in point: when visiting NL to try out various 'bents, both the
>places we went (Ligfietscentrum in Briel and Ligfietswinkel in
>Amsterdam) adjusted chain length on every single try out by popping
>links in and out of the chain with a tool. You could see that both were
>/very/ experienced with chain tools and could've done it with their eyes
>shut. In comparison, I use a chain tool about once every 2 or 3 years,
>and am paranoid and slow and clumsy with them (so I use Powerlinks!).
>But if you're a dab hand with a chain tool it looks like they can be
>used frequently and easily without undue problems.
Shimano 9-speeds allegedly require special treatment, but I have
frequently split and rejoined Sram 9-speed chains with a chain tool
and it's trivially easy, and I've never broken one either.
Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken
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Date: 28 Oct 2005 17:40:44
From: rBOB
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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>I'm quite sure it is correct.
>Just use the proper tools.
s,
Excuse me but your response seems condescending. If you would like to
make a strong case, please quote a source other than yourself--as I did
with Sheldon Brown.
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Date: 29 Oct 2005 17:21:25
From: Mars
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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rBOB tikte glashard:
>> I'm quite sure it is correct.
>
>> Just use the proper tools.
>
> s,
>
> Excuse me but your response seems condescending. If you would like to
> make a strong case, please quote a source other than yourself--as I did
> with Sheldon Brown.
If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
The pins used in SRAM chains have a tight fit and can be reused. The
thing to be aware of though is that one supports the chain in order to
avoid damage. This is common practice with cycle builders. Quick links
are used to make it easier to remove a chain, but they are not needed.
This technique is for instance used at velomobiel.nl and at Re-Cycle,
both cycle builders in the Netherlands.
/s
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Date: 29 Oct 2005 20:44:07
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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s wrote:
> If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
But most probably is.
Rich
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Date: 30 Oct 2005 13:53:09
From: Mars
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Rich tikte glashard:
> s wrote:
>
>> If something's on Sheldon Brown's site it does not have to be correct.
>
> But most probably is.
You're right. But as Sheldon said himself he wrote that it was difficult
to reuse pins; so its in the hands of the mechanic.
/s
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Date: 25 Oct 2005 11:16:04
From: rBOB
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic tikte glashard:
> > While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
> > six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
> > for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
> > can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
> > doing so.
s wrote:
> Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
> Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
> had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).
I don't think this is correct (at least not for 8/9/10 speed chains).
While it is known that Shimano chain links should not be re-used, I
think the same applies to SRAM chains (although this is not as well
known).
I quote Sheldon Brown:
"To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
plate."
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
The fact that your chains have not broken is not proof positive that it
is OK to re-use the link.
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Date: 28 Oct 2005 22:07:28
From: Mars
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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rBOB tikte glashard:
te:
>> Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
>> Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
>> had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).
>
> I don't think this is correct (at least not for 8/9/10 speed chains).
I'm quite sure it is correct.
> While it is known that Shimano chain links should not be re-used, I
> think the same applies to SRAM chains (although this is not as well
> known).
>
> I quote Sheldon Brown:
>
> "To withstand these high stresses, modern chains have rivets that are
> tighter fitting into the chain plates. The new rivets are difficult to
> remove and reinstall without damaging either the rivet or the side
> plate."
Just use the proper tools.
/s
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Date: 24 Oct 2005 18:44:38
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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rBOB wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
> I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
> bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
> and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?
That is what I would do.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 24 Oct 2005 09:36:47
From: rBOB
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Tom,
Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?
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Date: 26 Oct 2005 09:33:57
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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rBOB wrote:
> Thanks for the thourough reply. So let me see if I have it straight. If
> I need the length of a little less than two PC-58 chains for my CLWB
> bent, I trim one chain by taking off the extra links with a chain tool
> and then join the two chains with two Power Links. Is that right?
That appears to be the standard procedure for the chains on our 'bents
(a Nazca Fiero and HP Vel Streetmachine).
Powerlinks are worth having on in any case as it makes breaking the
chain for cleaning much easier.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 23 Oct 2005 23:33:48
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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rBOB wrote:
> I have plenty of experience working on upright bikes but I have not
> replaced the chain on my first bent yet. I have the following
> questions:
>
> 1. Do I need to buy a special chain or can I combine SRAM PC-58 chains?
> (This is an 8 speed cassette and I have 10 new SRAM PC-58 chains in my
> parts bin so I would prefer to use those if possible.)
While a few places sell longer than standard chains, many (most?)
recumbents use several shorter chains joined together.
> 2. If OK to combine chains, do I use additional the super links (or
> whatever they are called) or is there another preferred way (such as
> using the chain tool to combine the chains)?
While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
doing so.
SRAM recommends using their Power Links [TM] to rejoin their chains, so
this would appear to be the most reliable method.
> 3. I usually get about 2000 miles per chain on an upright. If the bent
> chain is twice as long, should I expect to get 4000 miles out if under
> similar conditions? This question is largely academic since I replace
> my chains based on stretch, not mileage. I just thought it was worth
> soliciting opinions about it.
Most chain wear occurs when the chain is bent around the rear
sprocket(s) under load. On a longer recumbent chain, this obviously
occurs less often, so wear related chain life should generally be
proportional to length.
[1] It should be noted that breaking a chain on a recumbent is less
likely to have the severe negative consequences of doing so on an
upright, since recumbent riders do not stand while pedaling (when
upright chains typically fail).
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 25 Oct 2005 07:18:20
From: Mars
Subject: Re: Chain advice please
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Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic tikte glashard:
> rBOB wrote:
>> 2. If OK to combine chains, do I use additional the super links (or
>> whatever they are called) or is there another preferred way (such as
>> using the chain tool to combine the chains)?
>
> While there is general consensus that it is fine to join five (5) and
> six (6) speed SRAM/Sachs/Sedis chains with pins, it is NOT recommended
> for nine (9) and ten (10) speed chains. Seven/eight (7/8) speed chains
> can be rejoined with pins, but some have reported failures [1] from
> doing so.
Not true. SRAM chains can easily be (re)joined with pins. However,
Shimano chains have 'weaker' pins. I always use this method, and never
had chain breakage on a recumbent (I cycle about 18000 km a year).
/s
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