Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

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Date: 12 Feb 2007 05:53:46
From:
Subject: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
afford computers.

Date: 15 Feb 2007 08:57:40
From:
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Joel wrote: my money was to hard to earn,
> so I like to hold on to it and buy my toys.
>
> Jo

Wise! I can not hold on to my money, spending a small fortune on my
toys (recumbents); one of which is a 'foreign bent'.

Sort of like a prized Jaguar - Ferarri - Lotus - Lamborghini to a car
fanatic. Costs a lot more, but not worth more than $1000. to a non-
bent fanatic!

Date: 12 Feb 2007 09:08:36
From: gotbent
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

<eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1171288426.150124.14070@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
> afford computers.
>

I thinl RANS is moving back to onshoring after having to deal with quality
problems with their offshore products. However ICE and HP Velo buy offshore
parts for local assembly.

I recently saw some of the Performance (China Mascot) products that Joel
talks about in his post at my LBS in trike and quasi-low products and I
imagine they are there because of attractive price points, they look a bit
crude around the edges.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 12 Feb 2007 11:12:18
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

gotbent wrote:
> <eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1171288426.150124.14070@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
>> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
>> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
>> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
>> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
>> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
>> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
>> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
>> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
>> afford computers.
>>
>
> I thinl RANS is moving back to onshoring after having to deal with quality
> problems with their offshore products. However ICE and HP Velo buy offshore
> parts for local assembly.
>
> I recently saw some of the Performance (China Mascot) products that Joel
> talks about in his post at my LBS in trike and quasi-low products and I
> imagine they are there because of attractive price points, they look a bit
> crude around the edges.
>
>
>
I have to disagree, with the statement "Crude around the edges" as I
have compared the welds side by side with some of the top manufactures,
and find the welds just as nice. And in one instance the TW bikes looked
nicer than one produced here in the USA. I will not mention names as
this always starts a flame war, and on this newsgroup it doesn't take much.

Date: 12 Feb 2007 11:02:12
From: gotbent
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

"Joel" <joelw135atcomcast.net > wrote in message
news:OpCdnZssctF-DE3YnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@comcast.com...
> gotbent wrote:
>> <eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1171288426.150124.14070@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
>>> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
>>> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
>>> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
>>> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
>>> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
>>> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
>>> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
>>> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
>>> afford computers.
>>>
>>
>> I thinl RANS is moving back to onshoring after having to deal with
>> quality problems with their offshore products. However ICE and HP Velo
>> buy offshore parts for local assembly.
>>
>> I recently saw some of the Performance (China Mascot) products that Joel
>> talks about in his post at my LBS in trike and quasi-low products and I
>> imagine they are there because of attractive price points, they look a
>> bit crude around the edges.
> I have to disagree, with the statement "Crude around the edges" as I have
> compared the welds side by side with some of the top manufactures, and
> find the welds just as nice. And in one instance the TW bikes looked nicer
> than one produced here in the USA. I will not mention names as this always
> starts a flame war, and on this newsgroup it doesn't take much.

I don't mean welds, but proportions and design elements that look less
refined and raw. I'm sure they will become 'tighter' as their designers gain
experience in the genre. Right now they are in the copy to learn stage,
rather than in the fluency of experience stage.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 12 Feb 2007 12:56:06
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

gotbent wrote:
> "Joel" <joelw135atcomcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OpCdnZssctF-DE3YnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> gotbent wrote:
>>> <eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1171288426.150124.14070@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
>>>> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
>>>> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
>>>> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
>>>> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
>>>> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
>>>> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
>>>> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
>>>> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
>>>> afford computers.
>>>>
>>> I thinl RANS is moving back to onshoring after having to deal with
>>> quality problems with their offshore products. However ICE and HP Velo
>>> buy offshore parts for local assembly.
>>>
>>> I recently saw some of the Performance (China Mascot) products that Joel
>>> talks about in his post at my LBS in trike and quasi-low products and I
>>> imagine they are there because of attractive price points, they look a
>>> bit crude around the edges.
>> I have to disagree, with the statement "Crude around the edges" as I have
>> compared the welds side by side with some of the top manufactures, and
>> find the welds just as nice. And in one instance the TW bikes looked nicer
>> than one produced here in the USA. I will not mention names as this always
>> starts a flame war, and on this newsgroup it doesn't take much.
>
> I don't mean welds, but proportions and design elements that look less
> refined and raw. I'm sure they will become 'tighter' as their designers gain
> experience in the genre. Right now they are in the copy to learn stage,
> rather than in the fluency of experience stage.
>
>
>

To be honest as far as design goes there Tadpole trike is far from a
trike in the learning stage, it is very well designed. There bikes yes I
agree that they are in the learning stage. There idlers are a little
chincy and if that was improved it would make a great design difference.
There FRP seat is one of the most comfortable hard shell seats I have
sat in. Much more comfortable than the HP standard seat not the BodyLink.

Date: 13 Feb 2007 08:26:32
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Joel wrote:

> There FRP seat is one of the most comfortable hard shell seats I have
> sat in. Much more comfortable than the HP standard seat not the BodyLink.

Though this illustrates the extent to which different physiologies will
like different seats... Personally I find the standard HP seat to be
really comfortable, but have never got really happy in a Bodylink
despite its much vaunted adjustability. My wife prefers Nazca's Fiero
seat to either HP seat, and so on.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 13 Feb 2007 07:27:43
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>
>> There FRP seat is one of the most comfortable hard shell seats I have
>> sat in. Much more comfortable than the HP standard seat not the BodyLink.
>
> Though this illustrates the extent to which different physiologies will
> like different seats... Personally I find the standard HP seat to be
> really comfortable, but have never got really happy in a Bodylink
> despite its much vaunted adjustability. My wife prefers Nazca's Fiero
> seat to either HP seat, and so on.
>
> Pete.
I know what you mean, the HP which I bought for my bike, was OK, but my
AB seat is very comfortable, I tried the Nazca and I agree with your
wife it is good. The carbon seat that Power On Cycles cells is also good.

Date: 13 Feb 2007 13:02:28
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Joel wrote:

> I know what you mean, the HP which I bought for my bike, was OK, but my
> AB seat is very comfortable, I tried the Nazca and I agree with your
> wife it is good.

I think it's good too, but... I like the way the HP seat supports my
shoulders while Roos likes the way the Fiero's seat is cut away from
hers: purely down to personal preference.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 13 Feb 2007 08:28:43
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>
>> I know what you mean, the HP which I bought for my bike, was OK, but
>> my AB seat is very comfortable, I tried the Nazca and I agree with
>> your wife it is good.
>
> I think it's good too, but... I like the way the HP seat supports my
> shoulders while Roos likes the way the Fiero's seat is cut away from
> hers: purely down to personal preference.
>
> Pete.
Your wife has a point regarding the shoulder area. I have read on many
forums that women need a seat that is narrow so that the shoulder blades
bypass the seat sides. I am not sure but maybe a womens shoulder blades
protrude farther than most guys. I had tried a seat on my friends bike
and he bought it as a part years ago from a bent head. Well as soon as I
sat on it I was having pains in the shoulders. Turned out that it was a
very wide seat and just hit me in the wrong place. In a perfect world we
would be able to sit in a special seat that would make a mold for a
custom seat. So no two seats are alike.

Date: 13 Feb 2007 14:45:18
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Joel wrote:
>
> Your wife has a point regarding the shoulder area. I have read on many
> forums that women need a seat that is narrow so that the shoulder blades
> bypass the seat sides. I am not sure but maybe a womens shoulder blades
> protrude farther than most guys.

While it's certainly true that women are different shapes to men, what
seems to be less well appreciated by keting and design folk is that
women are also different shapes to... other women!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 13 Feb 2007 10:06:17
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Joel wrote:
>>
>> Your wife has a point regarding the shoulder area. I have read on many
>> forums that women need a seat that is narrow so that the shoulder
>> blades bypass the seat sides. I am not sure but maybe a womens
>> shoulder blades protrude farther than most guys.
>
> While it's certainly true that women are different shapes to men, what
> seems to be less well appreciated by keting and design folk is that
> women are also different shapes to... other women!
>
> Pete.

If I had the time and the place to do it, I would be making a body mold
and then lay up some Carbon fiber and produce a perfect seat.

Date: 13 Feb 2007 09:26:25
From: gotbent
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

"Joel" <joelw135atcomcast.net > wrote in message
news:CoKdnZTjosV0TkzYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast.com...
> Peter Clinch wrote:
>> Joel wrote:
>>>
>>> Your wife has a point regarding the shoulder area. I have read on many
>>> forums that women need a seat that is narrow so that the shoulder blades
>>> bypass the seat sides. I am not sure but maybe a womens shoulder blades
>>> protrude farther than most guys.
>>
>> While it's certainly true that women are different shapes to men, what
>> seems to be less well appreciated by keting and design folk is that
>> women are also different shapes to... other women!
>>
>> Pete.
>
> If I had the time and the place to do it, I would be making a body mold
> and then lay up some Carbon fiber and produce a perfect seat.

A good project to keep you out of the casinos the next time you go to
Atlantic City.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 13 Feb 2007 10:39:26
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

gotbent wrote:
> "Joel" <joelw135atcomcast.net> wrote in message
> news:CoKdnZTjosV0TkzYnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Peter Clinch wrote:
>>> Joel wrote:
>>>> Your wife has a point regarding the shoulder area. I have read on many
>>>> forums that women need a seat that is narrow so that the shoulder blades
>>>> bypass the seat sides. I am not sure but maybe a womens shoulder blades
>>>> protrude farther than most guys.
>>> While it's certainly true that women are different shapes to men, what
>>> seems to be less well appreciated by keting and design folk is that
>>> women are also different shapes to... other women!
>>>
>>> Pete.
>> If I had the time and the place to do it, I would be making a body mold
>> and then lay up some Carbon fiber and produce a perfect seat.
>
> A good project to keep you out of the casinos the next time you go to
> Atlantic City.
>
>
>

I stay far, far away from Atlantic City, my money was to hard to earn,
so I like to hold on to it and buy my toys.

Joel

Date: 12 Feb 2007 14:14:45
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com wrote:
> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
> afford computers.

The frame on my European recumbent came from Taiwan, and that certainly
seems to make a lot of sense if you're not custom building. For fully
completed bikes it's not quite so simple in a niche ket like the
recumbent ket, as many of the bikes come out effectively as semi
customised. That puts up the price, Taiwanese frame or not, and since
there isn't a mass ket for recumbents it does make sense.

No mass ket is a bit of a chicken and egg thing: no mass ket at
high prices, but no low prices without a mass ket. But there's more
to it than price, as most people are apparently convinced that 'bents
have insurmountable disadvantages (e.g., "you must feel very vulnerable
down there!"; "I'm the same height as your car seat"; oh yes... but you
must feel very vulnerable down there", or, "how do you get up hills, you
can't stand on the pedals!"; "change down and spin up"; but it must be
hard getting up hills" and so on) and that's "obvious" because almost
eveyone rides a conventional bike, so they're "obviously" better...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 12 Feb 2007 09:47:17
From: Curtis L. Russell
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:14:45 +0000, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:

>The frame on my European recumbent came from Taiwan, and that certainly
>seems to make a lot of sense if you're not custom building. For fully
>completed bikes it's not quite so simple in a niche ket like the
>recumbent ket, as many of the bikes come out effectively as semi
>customised. That puts up the price, Taiwanese frame or not, and since
>there isn't a mass ket for recumbents it does make sense.

The danger isn't in the cost of the bikes in Taiwan. It is because you
increase your supply line and channel risk incredibly for a small
firm. If you have a slow period selling at the shops in a small firm
that makes its own bikes, you may pay slow (within state regulations)
or stretch your payables out. If instead the bikes don't leave the
ship until you pay, cash flow can interrupt or kill your supply line
and, if there aren't enough bikes in the channel to make up the cash
crunch quickly, put you out of business.

Worst case? Your supplier sells the bikes on the ship below your cost
to recover theirs, knowing you are still on the hook for any damages.
You compete against your own product in your last months of business.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Date: 12 Feb 2007 09:30:56
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????

Peter Clinch wrote:
> eco_milage_buster_2005@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Taiwan- the center of the cycling universe
>> The overwhelming majority of cycling products are now produced in
>> Taiwan. Frames especially. This isn't a bad thing either. The product
>> quality is as good as anywhere else in the world and they have tons of
>> experience in manufacturing and R&D of cycling products. No, it isn't
>> Italy or even the USofA, but the products work, are reliable and cost
>> much less. Makes perfect sense for thos who are huddled in gas lines,
>> or mass producing- which piles up second-hand bikes and trikes at the
>> Goodwill Bargain lots for the penniless and homeless who cannot ven
>> afford computers.
>
> The frame on my European recumbent came from Taiwan, and that certainly
> seems to make a lot of sense if you're not custom building. For fully
> completed bikes it's not quite so simple in a niche ket like the
> recumbent ket, as many of the bikes come out effectively as semi
> customised. That puts up the price, Taiwanese frame or not, and since
> there isn't a mass ket for recumbents it does make sense.
>
> No mass ket is a bit of a chicken and egg thing: no mass ket at
> high prices, but no low prices without a mass ket. But there's more
> to it than price, as most people are apparently convinced that 'bents
> have insurmountable disadvantages (e.g., "you must feel very vulnerable
> down there!"; "I'm the same height as your car seat"; oh yes... but you
> must feel very vulnerable down there", or, "how do you get up hills, you
> can't stand on the pedals!"; "change down and spin up"; but it must be
> hard getting up hills" and so on) and that's "obvious" because almost
> eveyone rides a conventional bike, so they're "obviously" better...
>
> Pete.
There are a few manufactures that build and sell complete recumbent
bikes and trikes in Taiwan. TW-Bents http://www.recumbent.com.tw/ they
also go under the name Performer or China Mascot.

Date: 12 Feb 2007 09:04:03
From: Joel
Subject: Re: Foreign cars - why not foreign 'bents?????