Help Me Choose A Headlight

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Date: 01 May 2007 20:10:30
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Help Me Choose A Headlight

I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
performancebike.com, anyway])....

TIA, folks!

Date: 07 May 2007 11:43:01
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 7, 12:41 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Prisoner at War wrote:
> > Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't
> > predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have
> > some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They
> > better, anyway, for $600!!!
>
> In reality, the optics on the higher end bicycle lights are excellent.
> It's not a wild unfocused beam such as on the old 2 D cell battery
> headlights of the olden days. The quartz-halogen lights are typically
> using MR lamps, which are very good optics with matched, mirrored
> reflectors.

The optics of MR lamps are excellent for their primary intended use:
track lighting, to properly display paintings on walls, or to give
supplemental or decorative lighting inside houses and buildings. For
those applications, you want a soft, even, radially symmetrical beam
pattern.

The optics required for road use are entirely different. Park your
car in front of a wall and examine the shape of the headlight beams on
the wall. Rather than a radially symmetrical beam, you have a
precisely tailored beam shape. The most notable feature is the
horizontal cut-off plane, with bright light below that plane (to land
on the road) and dimmer light above that plane (to prevent blinding of
other road users). There are legal requirements - at least, in many
countries - governing the shape of the beam.

> Most bicycle and motorcycle HID lamps also use MR11 and MR16 type lamps,
> as it's become the super-standard for high-end lighting.

AFAIK, motorcycles are subject to the same legal beam requirements as
other motor vehicles. Certainly, my BMW has a beam shape that's
tailored as precisely as my car's lights. I seriously doubt any
radially symmetrical HID lamps are used as original equipment on
motorcycles, but I'm willing to look at properly cited evidence to the
contrary.

Now it's true that aftermarket light sets have no road-tailored
optics. Those are the ones installed by irresponsible hot-rodders,
the ones that blind oncoming traffic.

>
> One of the big advantages of the MR system is that the bulb is aligned
> precisely with the reflector at the factory. One problem with the lamps
> where you replace the actual bulb is that you have to align the bulb by
> trial and error (not even possible on the cheap lamps with threaded
> bulbs, and a hassle on the higher end lamps with a bulb that can be
> rotated for proper alignment).

Statements like that make me wonder about SMS's experience with
lights!

Bike generator headlights use flange-mount bulbs. The flange-to-
filament distance is precisely controlled. When replacing a bulb, the
flange sits against a precisely placed shoulder. The shoulder has a
protrusion, and the flange has a matching notch, so the bulb fits only
in it's precise orientation. No trial and error is necessary. In
fact, it's not even possible!

> You really have to look at them to evaluate them. Do any have a metal
> mounting bracket to the bike? How rugged is the wiring and the switches?
> How much will battery replacement cost? How much is a replacement
> lamp? Most of these systems use the MR11 Welch Allyn HID lamp, which
> costs close to $90, and you definitely want to have a spare.

IOW, add $90 onto the already exorbitant cost of the HID set you're
considering.

Through all this, I think it's good to remember that motorcycles
travel legally up to 75 mph. Their headlights are designed for such
speeds.

Using that light output for a bicycle is as inappropriate as using
motorcycle wheels on a bicycle.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 May 2007 21:23:02
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 7, 12:01 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Prisoner at War wrote:
> > Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for
> > a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's
> > Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get
> > something I'd like to get the best. ^_^
>
> I'm glad to see more night rides by clubs. Some clubs are very explicit
> as to the brightness of lights that are required,

Oh? How do they measure brightness?

> but any available HID
> light should be sufficient, usually the minimum is a 6 watt
> quartz-halogen headlight...

"Usually"? I'd like to see some citation for that.

> With the HID and MR series of lights, you don't really have to worry
> about blinding other cyclists, as the optics on these are very precise.

>From what I've seen, the optics on HID and MR lights are very precise
only in that they don't throw light out the back! They do throw a fog
of light out the front, _roughly_ in an eight degree (fairly typical
spot) or 30+ degree (fairly typical flood) radially symmetrical
pattern. IOW they throw as much light up as down.

Compare this with the optics on, say, my car headlamps, my motorcycle
headlamps, or my bicycle generator headlamps. All these direct less
light upward, since more light is needed downward onto the road. The
cutoff plane is easily apparent. They use the light output
efficiently.

Remember, light going upward toward other road users travels directly
from your lamp to their eye. It doesn't need to be as powerful as
what goes down. The downward light must hit the road, where some gets
absorbed and some gets scattered. Only a small percentage bounces
back to your eye to show you the road.

You need bright light down, much less light up. Radially symmetrical
optics don't do that.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 May 2007 12:35:08
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 6, 11:01 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 12:47 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > If you do go with some mega-bright, no-optics solution, please be
> > courteous with it.
>
> > Some of us have encountered cyclists with those systems approaching us
> > on bike trails, and have experienced being blinded. Some users have
> > bragged about car drivers flashing their brights, because of the glare
> > from those systems.
> ...
>
> Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly
> relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an
> HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm
> not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same
> eye-level as me...

It absolutely can and will happen. I've been on the receiving end, on
a short cut-through bike trail in our town. I remember desperately
trying to shield my eyes and close one eye to retain a _little_ night
vision. It was ugly.

> Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't
> predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have
> some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They
> better, anyway, for $600!!!

Wrong. They won't. Or more precisely, I'll be amazed if the beams
are anything other than circular - that is, sending exactly as much
light up as down. For some reason, manufacturers of $600 HID lights
(or $200 MR-16 lights) can't replicate the optics of a $20 Cateye
light from 1990.

The only way to NOT blind an oncoming cyclist with a no-optics high
power light, is to point the light down in front of you. But then
you'll find you've got a super-bright patch of road close in front of
you, it's reflecting back and ruining your night vision, and you can't
see very well at all. This is why I don't like the crude-optics mega-
lights.

Before you shell out the cost of a bicycle on an excessively bright
light, try this: Borrow an ordinary, good quality bike headlight.
Try a Cateye Halogen Micro-II, for example, if you can find one (the
pre-LED model) or any decent generator light. Put it on your bike,
have a friend ride your bike toward you, and see how conspicuous 2.4
watts of halogen light really is.

I've done this with dozens of other cyclists, in night lighting
workshops. I've never had any of them say "That's too dim to be
safe."

If you want to up the lumen output, that, fine. But be responsible,
and don't think you've got to look like a supernova to be noticed.

> So which one do you recommend?

I recommend a generator light. If you don't like to generate your own
power, I recommend a generator lamp powered by your own rechargeable
battery pack. If you want twice as much light, either put in a more
powerful bulb into the lamp assembly, or mount two of them.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 May 2007 08:01:10
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 12:47 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> If you do go with some mega-bright, no-optics solution, please be
> courteous with it.
>
> Some of us have encountered cyclists with those systems approaching us
> on bike trails, and have experienced being blinded. Some users have
> bragged about car drivers flashing their brights, because of the glare
> from those systems.
>
> We don't need to get into lumen wars with other cyclists, or with car
> drivers. For road riding, you need enough light on the road to see
> the road, including potholes or trash. And you need enough light
> going above the road to make you as conspicuous as you are in the
> daytime, no more.
>
> Those purposes require relatively little light output. You don't need
> any more - and in particular, burning out people's retinas with
> excessive above-the-road light is, at best, pretty rude. At worst,
> it's dangerous for them and for you.
>
> That's one reason automotive headlights, motorcycle headlights, and
> well-designed bike headlights have a "cut-off" plane. Below that
> plane, light going to the road is bright. Above that plane, light
> going into others' eyes is much dimmer.
>
> If your lights don't have optics that produce that sort of beam
> pattern, please point them low enough to not blind other users.
> Don't become the lumen equivalent of a Hummer driver, putting your
> (supposed) safety and macho power above the safety of everyone else.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly
relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an
HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm
not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same
eye-level as me...except for recumbent cyclists -- but then I really
plan on using the HID on my 'bent, so it'd be mounted lower than most
cyclists' vantage points, and even that of many cars, for that matter.

Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't
predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have
some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They
better, anyway, for $600!!!

So which one do you recommend? Looks like the NiteRider is a winner.
Funny how I can't really find reviews of these guys online. I've seen
only one "real" (i.e., useful, with a good photo) review of the Light
& Motion product, but none yet for the NiteRider (which is newer,
though).

Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for
a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's
Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get
something I'd like to get the best. ^_^

(Yes yes I know "the best" is a semantically ambiguous term....)
(Yes yes, I know, "

Date: 07 May 2007 09:41:35
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:

> Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't
> predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have
> some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They
> better, anyway, for $600!!!

In reality, the optics on the higher end bicycle lights are excellent.
It's not a wild unfocused beam such as on the old 2 D cell battery
headlights of the olden days. The quartz-halogen lights are typically
using MR lamps, which are very good optics with matched, mirrored
reflectors.

Most bicycle and motorcycle HID lamps also use MR11 and MR16 type lamps,
as it's become the super-standard for high-end lighting.

One of the big advantages of the MR system is that the bulb is aligned
precisely with the reflector at the factory. One problem with the lamps
where you replace the actual bulb is that you have to align the bulb by
trial and error (not even possible on the cheap lamps with threaded
bulbs, and a hassle on the higher end lamps with a bulb that can be
rotated for proper alignment).

Look at HID lamps on vehicles. If aimed properly, the low beams don't
blind you. Contrast this with some of the crappy daytime running light
implementations that use the high beams at half-brightness, and blind
you even though the lights are not really all that bright.

> So which one do you recommend? Looks like the NiteRider is a winner.
> Funny how I can't really find reviews of these guys online. I've seen
> only one "real" (i.e., useful, with a good photo) review of the Light
> & Motion product, but none yet for the NiteRider (which is newer,
> though).
>
> Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for
> a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's
> Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get
> something I'd like to get the best. ^_^
>
> (Yes yes I know "the best" is a semantically ambiguous term....)
> (Yes yes, I know, "

You really have to look at them to evaluate them. Do any have a metal
mounting bracket to the bike? How rugged is the wiring and the switches?
How much will battery replacement cost? How much is a replacement
lamp? Most of these systems use the MR11 Welch Allyn HID lamp, which
costs close to $90, and you definitely want to have a spare. There will
soon be a flood (no pun intended) of lower-cost replacement HID lamps
coming in from Asia, you can already see them on the manufacturer's web
sites.

Date: 06 May 2007 21:01:45
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:

> Anyway, a good reminder, your post. I almost never feel the need for
> a light, but all club rides require them (except the anarchist Time's
> Up! rides -- hooray!), and, in keeping with my nature, if I get
> something I'd like to get the best. ^_^

I'm glad to see more night rides by clubs. Some clubs are very explicit
as to the brightness of lights that are required, but any available HID
light should be sufficient, usually the minimum is a 6 watt
quartz-halogen headlight and some sort of an LED or xenon tail light.

With the HID and MR series of lights, you don't really have to worry
about blinding other cyclists, as the optics on these are very precise.
On some of the sealed beams the light is more of a flood pattern, and I
wouldn't use the 25 watt version in traffic as it could be annoying.

Date: 06 May 2007 17:02:09
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:

> Yes, that's a very important point you make. While I was certainly
> relishing giving them motorists a bit of their own medicine with an
> HID light, I also don't want my fellow cyclists to be blinded! I'm
> not sure how they could be, though, seeing how they'd be at the same
> eye-level as me...except for recumbent cyclists -- but then I really
> plan on using the HID on my 'bent, so it'd be mounted lower than most
> cyclists' vantage points, and even that of many cars, for that matter.

Mounting on the front of a Streetmachine won't actually be that
much lower than a fork-crown mounting on a "normal" bike. More
important is which way it's pointing and how directed the optics are.

> Not sure how I'd prevent their being blinded, anyway: I couldn't
> predict it, could I? But I'm sure the two HIDs I'm considering have
> some kind of optics which should mitigate such circumstances. They
> better, anyway, for $600!!!

If it's not bright because of dissipating optics or because it just
isn't very powerful, it's still not very bright, and if your goal
is to be very bright... You can't have it both ways! Cars have
separate dip beams for a very good reason, because illuminating the
road as much as possible and illuminating the road to an adequate
degree while not blinding oncoming folk are not fully compatible
goals.

With this in mind, it'd be worth getting getting a set with a
switchable output. My recharageable set has twin heads, one 2.4W
and one 10W, and you can easily switch between either or both.
Something like that, and don't forget you are *not* safer if the
truck coming towards you is driven by someone who can't see
properly thanks to you wiping out his night vision...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 04 May 2007 23:19:13
From: tiborg
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine
HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter
than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not
a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to
have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light-
switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the
switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together
with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this
area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that
section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly
maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but
as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs.

Date: 05 May 2007 07:54:17
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

tiborg wrote:
> I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine
> HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter
> than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not
> a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to
> have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light-
> switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the
> switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together
> with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this
> area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that
> section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly
> maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but
> as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs.

This will probably occur with a multiple LED Luxeon lamp, but the beam
won't be as good because it's so difficult to collimate the light from
several sources into one beam.

The advantage of HID is that heat is easier to dissipate because it's
transfered over a wide area, through the glass. On the LED, it's the
very small semiconductor junction that heats up, and it's very difficult
to transfer so much heat through such a small surface area. Lumileds has
extensive information on designing heat sinks. Luxeon is working on is
designing LEDs that can have higher junction temperatures. Some high
intensity applications are adding active cooling fans, just like there
are fans to cool light sources in devices such as projectors.

There is one LED light, the Inolight, where the LED junction was so hot
that it was causing components on the printed circuit board to unsolder.

Date: 05 May 2007 07:43:54
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

tiborg wrote:
> I own one of the 30W Trail-Tech lights and several Topeak Moonshine
> HIDs. The illumination from all of them is great. The 30W is brighter
> than most of the mopeds I see on the road. However, durability is not
> a quality of any of these lights. Within a year of use, they start to
> have problems starting up or staying on. Also, the Trail-Tech light-
> switch-battery set is very poorly manufactured. The wiring where the
> switch line splices in to the battery-light line is just held together
> with some heat shrink tubing (the Topeak has a plastic box over this
> area to reduce flexing this weak joint). I've had to re-solder that
> section. I do use my light every weekday, in the rain and over poorly
> maintained asphalt trails, so I might be asking to much from them, but
> as soon as LEDs reach the level of the 13W HIDs, I'll go back to LEDs.

Most of the bicycle lighting systems require occasional wire
maintenance. On systems I make for my own use I use very good connectors
and switches designed for industrial use, but the commercial systems
never seem to want to go to the expense of higher quality connectors.

I like that there is no switch on the TrailTech lamp, as the integrated
switches are a big point of failure and should be avoided.

Date: 04 May 2007 15:51:53
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Date: 03 May 2007 20:58:25
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 9:27 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
>
>
> Again, this site is primarily to help people construct their own
> high-performance lighting systems. It's been expanded over the years to
> include information on other options, including a section that explains
> the pros and cons of dynamo systems at
> "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/dynamo.html".

Yes, we're familiar with that site. It claims to present an
"unbiased" evaluation of dynamo (or generator) lights, but somehow it
contains only every negative comment the author can dream up or
quote. It contains none of the positive comments repeatedly posted
here by people that routinely use bicycle dynamos with great success.

And, of course, the site still contains fundamental technical errors
that the author can't seem to understand. Let me spell one out - one
that I've hinted at many, many times. The table relating lumens to
watts has MR11 lamps and MR16 lamps with the same filament, judging by
the electrical data. But the MR16 are claimed to produce more than
twice as many lumens.

Anyone who understands the first fundamentals of optics knows that
lumens are a measuremen of the _total_ light output of a filament.
Wrapping a larger (MR16) reflector around the same filament cannot
change the total amount of light it produces. It can only change the
concentration of that light.

So we apparently have a light "expert" who is confused about the
fundamental units of measurement of light.

BTW, this same expert says http://myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html is
out of date because it does not include the Lightspin dynamo. Our
expert is apparently unaware that the Lightspin is no longer made,
meaning his own website is out of date. The Lightspin company
folded. It may resurrect itself, but odds don't look good at the
moment.

Finally, if one cherry picks enough other "experts" and takes enough
of their statements out of context, one can put together a list of
people who apparently don't like dynamos. But if the website were
truly unbiased, as the author claims, it would include an equal number
of statements from people like John Forester, Guy Chapman, Andreas
Ohler, John Allen, Sheldon Brown, Andrew Muzi, Peter Clinch and
countless others who either use, promote or accept generator lights.

Remember that SMS got into this as a failed marketer of rechargeable
light systems. Despite his claim to the contrary, his bias is
evident.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 03 May 2007 20:21:34
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 8:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> > SMS wrote:
>
> >> Personally, I'd rather over-voltage a quartz-halogen lamp to achieve
> >> the illumination level of HID, and carry a spare bulb for when it
> >> burns out in that supernova.
>
> > That works only if you have a sanitary, well clean, cloth to change the
> > bulb. The Quartz will shatter from the skin oils if you touch it.
>
> Not if you're using MR11 or MR16 lamps, which most rechargeable bicycle
> lights now use. You don't touch the actual bulb, just the reflector/lens.

And to get back to optics, it's the MR11 and MR16 bike lights that
have no road-specific optics. These are the ones that require 10 to
20 watts or more to give adequate road illumination, necessitating a
bigger battery and/or a shorter run time, while blinding oncoming road
users and washing out the rider's night vision.

Lamps designed for illuminating wall hangings just aren't optimum for
bike lights.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 03 May 2007 18:27:56
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:
> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
> performancebike.com, anyway])....

I've updated the HID/LED section of the Bicycle Lighting website
"http://bicyclelighting.com". Note that this site was primarily a site
for building homebrew lighting systems, not a site to evaluate every
commercial lighting system on the market. As such, I've now included the
TrailTech lamps because they are usable in a homebrew system, but not
included the insanely over-priced commercial HID systems.

I've also added the few good Luxeon LED lamps, since several readers
requested this information, though the good LED lamps are nearly as
expensive as the TrailTech HID lamps.

The direct link to the HID/LED section is
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/hidled.html"

Again, this site is primarily to help people construct their own
high-performance lighting systems. It's been expanded over the years to
include information on other options, including a section that explains
the pros and cons of dynamo systems at
"http://nordicgroup.us/s78/dynamo.html".

Date: 04 May 2007 17:48:37
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> Prisoner at War wrote:
>> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
>> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
>> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
>> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
>> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
>> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
>> performancebike.com, anyway])....
>
> I've updated the HID/LED section of the Bicycle Lighting website
> "http://bicyclelighting.com". Note that this site was primarily a site
> for building homebrew lighting systems, not a site to evaluate every
> commercial lighting system on the market. As such, I've now included the
> TrailTech lamps because they are usable in a homebrew system, but not
> included the insanely over-priced commercial HID systems.
>
> I've also added the few good Luxeon LED lamps, since several readers
> requested this information, though the good LED lamps are nearly as
> expensive as the TrailTech HID lamps.
>
> The direct link to the HID/LED section is
> "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/hidled.html"
>
> Again, this site is primarily to help people construct their own
> high-performance lighting systems. It's been expanded over the years to
> include information on other options, including a section that explains
> the pros and cons of dynamo systems at
> "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/dynamo.html".

The TrailTech site indicates the MR11 light outputs 500lm at a power
draw of 13W. That's around the 40 lm/W of mature power LEDs like the
Luxeon. Newer LEDs, like the Cree, are capable of 80lm/W. Of course
that's at the 1W level, but it's still a lot of light for cycling.

LED systems have had difficulties scaling up, whereas HID systems have
difficulty scaling down. LEDs have finally reached the point in power
where they are beginning to qualify for huge application markets in
general & automotive lighting. Prices are declining fast. A 1W Cree is
currently at $7.50 in single units, Luxeons at half that.

A lot of people find the ~30-40lm of a generator powered incandescent
sufficient to ride by. Having used a wide variety of lights, I can't
imagine anyone really needing more than 200lm. The best of the latest
LED devices can almost do that today.

LEDs have a number of inherent advantages over both arc and incandescent
bulbs: more rugged/longer lived; ability to modulate power over a wide
range with no color shift or efficiency loss; simple power supplies; no
warm up; very small emitter/optics size; cheap to make in volume.

I don't think we'll ever see a HID light in the cycling "sweet spot" of
~200lm/2W.

2 years ago, I bought a NiteHawk 1W Luxeon light, MSRP $60. This year I
bought I 1W Luxeon head-mounted light for $15. I'm told they're
available for half that if you shop around. Prices have declined 4-5x
for the devices in that period. It's only a matter of time before LEDs
dominate all forms of lighting, including cycling.

Date: 04 May 2007 08:44:32
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:

> Again, this site is primarily to help people construct their own
> high-performance lighting systems. It's been expanded over the years to
> include information on other options, including a section that explains
> the pros and cons of dynamo systems at
> "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/dynamo.html".

As expected there's a lot of good info but it's clouded over by the
author's opinion that dynamos aren't really the thing, despite a few
million happy users out there.

"They're too expensive"... well, I've got expensive dynamos on my far
more expensive bikes, because I find the investment pays off for me.

"They're not powerful enough"... mine are powerful enough for long trips
on unlit roads in winter.

"High power battery setups are much better"... I have one, don't use it
any more as it's far more of a faff than the dynamos.

It's not as black and white as is being made out.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 03 May 2007 17:39:51
From: ddog
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 1, 11:10 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
> performancebike.com, anyway])....
>
> TIA, folks!

I hear Niterider's are good, but the following link seems to be best
light and less maintenance per dollar of any light I've investigated
yet.

http://www.bikemania.biz/FoxFury_Performance_Series_Bicycle_Light_System_p/foxfury_400-400.htm

$99 and 4-AA for around 6 to 8 hrs with few hour reserve at reduced
power. They've got one in different models with one made by Cree from
double to over triple that cost, but think it would just blind cars
and piss them off. But the expensive one is good to about 60mph, so it
can be used on many different powered vehicles, as auxillary lights
anyway for any vehicle. These are for fire departments and emergency
crews with different light models. This is cheapest one I've found so
far for the above model which seemed appropriate for bikes, 25mph and
wide track bright view.

Date: 03 May 2007 09:47:53
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 11:22 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 3, 10:56 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Effective at what, though? Effective at excellent illumination with
> > juiced batteries? Yes. Effective at any illumination at all after
> > you've been running for longer than the batteries last? No. Effective
> > at any illumination at all if you didn't think to take your lights with
> > you and you're out later than you anticipated? No. Effective at any
> > illumination at all if your schedule was hectic and you just didn't get
> > round to recharging in time? No.
>
> > Saying "far more effective" than a dynamo setup without addressing what
> > dynamos can do that rechargeable setups don't is not doing anyone any
> > favours. Both can do what they do well better than the other, but a
> > sweeping "one is far more effective than the other, period" is, at best,
> > a foolish statement. I own both setups, so I can work from the
> > strengths of either as the job in hand suits. That the dynamo doesn't
> > do all the same jobs the rechargeables do doesn't detract from the fact
> > that on balance I find the dynamo systems far more useful and user
> > friendly, and that is a very, very important facet of how lighting
> > setups are "effective".
>
> > Pete.
> > --
> > Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> > Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> > Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> > net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
>
> I like the idea of dynamos. I just want very bright lights. One day
> I might even get both systems -- using the HID as a "back-up" or for
> "emergency" situations. But if it's one or the other, I'm going with
> HIDs for the time being. I'll navigate by the light of the moon and
> stars -- or lonely corner street lamps, for that matter -- but for
> those times I'd feel inclined to turn on my light, I want something
> bright as heck. With HIDs, I even like the idea of them being like
> car lights -- give other cars a pause, I imagine, the way my 'bent
> certainly gives 'em a pause and slows 'em down some, usually.
>
> Not arguing with you, Petey ol' boy (Goodness, no! LOL). Your points
> are well-taken. I had certainly investigated the SON dynamo for my HP
> Velo SMGTe initially. But for me -- and, I suspect, for most who are
> "fearless" enough to not bother with helmets and yet could still find
> the need at times for a headlight -- it's about the "YOOHOO!! I' over
> here!" factor that you get from a light bright as The Second Coming.
> ^_^

If you do go with some mega-bright, no-optics solution, please be
courteous with it.

Some of us have encountered cyclists with those systems approaching us
on bike trails, and have experienced being blinded. Some users have
bragged about car drivers flashing their brights, because of the glare
from those systems.

We don't need to get into lumen wars with other cyclists, or with car
drivers. For road riding, you need enough light on the road to see
the road, including potholes or trash. And you need enough light
going above the road to make you as conspicuous as you are in the
daytime, no more.

Those purposes require relatively little light output. You don't need
any more - and in particular, burning out people's retinas with
excessive above-the-road light is, at best, pretty rude. At worst,
it's dangerous for them and for you.

That's one reason automotive headlights, motorcycle headlights, and
well-designed bike headlights have a "cut-off" plane. Below that
plane, light going to the road is bright. Above that plane, light
going into others' eyes is much dimmer.

If your lights don't have optics that produce that sort of beam
pattern, please point them low enough to not blind other users.
Don't become the lumen equivalent of a Hummer driver, putting your
(supposed) safety and macho power above the safety of everyone else.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 03 May 2007 08:22:12
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 10:56 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>
>
> Effective at what, though? Effective at excellent illumination with
> juiced batteries? Yes. Effective at any illumination at all after
> you've been running for longer than the batteries last? No. Effective
> at any illumination at all if you didn't think to take your lights with
> you and you're out later than you anticipated? No. Effective at any
> illumination at all if your schedule was hectic and you just didn't get
> round to recharging in time? No.
>
> Saying "far more effective" than a dynamo setup without addressing what
> dynamos can do that rechargeable setups don't is not doing anyone any
> favours. Both can do what they do well better than the other, but a
> sweeping "one is far more effective than the other, period" is, at best,
> a foolish statement. I own both setups, so I can work from the
> strengths of either as the job in hand suits. That the dynamo doesn't
> do all the same jobs the rechargeables do doesn't detract from the fact
> that on balance I find the dynamo systems far more useful and user
> friendly, and that is a very, very important facet of how lighting
> setups are "effective".
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I like the idea of dynamos. I just want very bright lights. One day
I might even get both systems -- using the HID as a "back-up" or for
"emergency" situations. But if it's one or the other, I'm going with
HIDs for the time being. I'll navigate by the light of the moon and
stars -- or lonely corner street lamps, for that matter -- but for
those times I'd feel inclined to turn on my light, I want something
bright as heck. With HIDs, I even like the idea of them being like
car lights -- give other cars a pause, I imagine, the way my 'bent
certainly gives 'em a pause and slows 'em down some, usually.

Not arguing with you, Petey ol' boy (Goodness, no! LOL). Your points
are well-taken. I had certainly investigated the SON dynamo for my HP
Velo SMGTe initially. But for me -- and, I suspect, for most who are
"fearless" enough to not bother with helmets and yet could still find
the need at times for a headlight -- it's about the "YOOHOO!! I' over
here!" factor that you get from a light bright as The Second Coming.
^_^

Date: 04 May 2007 08:34:28
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:

> Not arguing with you, Petey ol' boy (Goodness, no! LOL). Your points
> are well-taken. I had certainly investigated the SON dynamo for my HP
> Velo SMGTe initially. But for me -- and, I suspect, for most who are
> "fearless" enough to not bother with helmets and yet could still find
> the need at times for a headlight -- it's about the "YOOHOO!! I' over
> here!" factor that you get from a light bright as The Second Coming.

Please note I'm not saying more powerful battery lights are bad (I own a
set after all), just that it isn't a simple black and white "these are
good, these aren't" situation: both flavours have their relative
strengths and weaknesses, and both have proven useful and usable in the
Real World (TM).

One thing you'll need to consider on an SMGTe is where you'll mount the
lamps and batteries. It's certainly not impossible, but you can't just
assume a standard bar mount as typically supplied will work...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 03 May 2007 08:15:22
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 3, 10:44 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Friday wrote:
> > I've been using a 13 watt trailtech for about a year and a half now and
> > it hasn't missed a beat.
> > Very good value for money. I use a 11.1 volt 3.5 amp.hour lithium
> > battery and get a minimum of three hours use out of it.
> > I wouldn't hesitate to get another one.
>
> That's good to know. There really is no reason for the insanely high
> prices that some companies charge for HID lights.
>
> Are you using the helmet mount light, or the chrome handlebar light?
>
> Did you get the spot or the flood?
>
> I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising toward
> the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less than a good
> dynamo system, and is far more effective.

Interesting. Thanks for the ref, guys.

Date: 02 May 2007 21:40:52
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Date: 02 May 2007 14:09:36
From:
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 4:50 pm, "Bob in CT" <ctvigge...@comcast.net > wrote:
>
>
> They [generators] can really provide that much light? My Niterider classic dual beam
> with 12W halogen isn't nearly enough for me, if I use the 12W setting.
> I've gone HID because of that.

There's no doubt that a generator light doesn't throw out as many
lumens as your Niterider, so in that sense, they don't provide as much
light.

But there's a lot more to it than raw lumen count. As mentioned many
times, there's the issue of optics, and optics make a huge
difference. Blasting light everywhere (or even blasting light out of
a typical MR-11 "spot" lamp) just wastes lots of energy - and
lumens.

The other issue mentioned by some is that too bright of a light can
sometimes make things worse. I think this is again dependent on
optics - but a super-bright spot on the road can conceivably close
down your irises, leaving you with worse vision overall.

I recall people telling about riding with a generator light, and
having rechargeable light fans following along behind. Putting the
right amount of light right where it's needed seems to work best.

In any case, I too am a guy who used a rechargeable setups for several
years, one being a commercial set, the other being a homebuilt. I
finally just left them at home. For me, the transition happened this
way: l'd take the rechargeable along on the daytime ride to work, and
on the nighttime return, I'd only turn it on if I thought my generator
light needed some help.

After riding seven miles in the dark and turning on the rechargeable
for only 100 yards or so, I decided to just leave it off and see how
it went. And it went fine.

I still have both rechargeable sets. They never get used at all,
except as "loaners" for friends.

Oh - sometimes one gets used to look for Great Horned Owls hooting in
the backyard. I do find it better for that application than a
generator light. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 02 May 2007 22:36:05
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On May 2, 4:50 pm, "Bob in CT" <ctvigge...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> They [generators] can really provide that much light? My Niterider classic dual beam
>> with 12W halogen isn't nearly enough for me, if I use the 12W setting.
>> I've gone HID because of that.
>
> There's no doubt that a generator light doesn't throw out as many
> lumens as your Niterider, so in that sense, they don't provide as much
> light.
>
> But there's a lot more to it than raw lumen count. As mentioned many
> times, there's the issue of optics, and optics make a huge
> difference. Blasting light everywhere (or even blasting light out of
> a typical MR-11 "spot" lamp) just wastes lots of energy - and
> lumens.
>
> The other issue mentioned by some is that too bright of a light can
> sometimes make things worse. I think this is again dependent on
> optics - but a super-bright spot on the road can conceivably close
> down your irises, leaving you with worse vision overall.
>
> I recall people telling about riding with a generator light, and
> having rechargeable light fans following along behind. Putting the
> right amount of light right where it's needed seems to work best.
>
> In any case, I too am a guy who used a rechargeable setups for several
> years, one being a commercial set, the other being a homebuilt. I
> finally just left them at home. For me, the transition happened this
> way: l'd take the rechargeable along on the daytime ride to work, and
> on the nighttime return, I'd only turn it on if I thought my generator
> light needed some help.
>
> After riding seven miles in the dark and turning on the rechargeable
> for only 100 yards or so, I decided to just leave it off and see how
> it went. And it went fine.

A half moon is plenty of light if your eyes aren't burned out by the day
time sun. The best I've managed is to ride by a 1/8th moon and stars.
Good enough to see the road but not too good for potholes. Good eyes are
your best, first priority.
Bill Baka
>
> I still have both rechargeable sets. They never get used at all,
> except as "loaners" for friends.
>
> Oh - sometimes one gets used to look for Great Horned Owls hooting in
> the backyard. I do find it better for that application than a
> generator light. ;-)
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Date: 02 May 2007 13:44:49
From: Will
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 9:56 am, "DanK...@gmail.com" <DanK...@gmail.com > wrote:

> That said, I can definately see the attraction of a hub powered
> light. Have you checked the resistance of the B&M when turned on by
> hand to get an idea how much drag there is? It's good to hear some
> people don't notice it when riding.
> Also, what's the weight penalty for a setup like this?

All the facts are here are at the B&M site:

http://www.bumm.de/index-e.html

Also Sheldon Brown and Peter White have information. Google for their
sites.

This is a good exercise for a spreadsheet. The difference in price for
the bottle vs. hub system is large, the system use is minimal (what %
of your riding is in the dark?) and the light generation is
comparable. For me the bottle made sense. I got the regular bottle not
the S6 or S12 (and I still cannot feel the drag.) The side benefit is
it makes the bike look a bit klutzier and therefore less attractive at
the bike rack <g >. The Dymotec with the LED is a 100,000 hour light
and it has circuitry to keep lite when you stop.

Your light options are the same whether you go bottle or hub...

Date: 02 May 2007 08:44:39
From: DanKMTB@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 11:37 am, "Clive George" <c...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote:
> <DanK...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1178118717.293239.244650@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 2, 11:04 am, "Clive George" <c...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >> It's sufficient that you wouldn't want to put one on a our-and-out racing
> >> bike. That said, I wouldn't let the weight bother me on such a climb -
> >> I've
> >> got a whole lot of other crap as well, which indicates I generally have
> >> other priorities.
>
> >> (this applies to any fixed-in-place lighting setup)
>
> > My road bike is a 60's or 70's steel Rudge singlespeed, with fenders.
> > I keep my tailight on 24/7, but the headlight comes and goes as I need
> > it for riding, and as it's around when I need a quick flashlight. I
> > wouldn't call it a race bike, but it's light and well lubricated. Low
> > rolling resistance and light weight are two of the three things that I
> > believe allow me to do some long (for me) rides on this rig (the third
> > being comfort).
>
> The extra weight of a dynamo set + lamp shouldn't be enough to stop you
> doing long rides, unless you're very 'princess and the pea'.
>
> cheers,
> clive- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm a bit of a clyde, and my bike is an (abused) artifact. I'm
thinking this setup would compliment my fenders well - I'm leaning
toward going for it.

Date: 02 May 2007 08:33:39
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:
> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
> performancebike.com, anyway])....
>
>
> TIA, folks!
>

You might also look at the TrailTech self-contained HID lights, i.e.
"http://www.trailtech.net/single_hid_mr11.html" and
"http://www.trailtech.net/single_hid_scmr16.html".

You have a choice of spot or flood beam patterns.

This is just the HID headlight and ballast all together, you have to add
your own 12V (nominal) battery pack and charger. You can go as expensive
or cheap as you want with batteries, depending on your needs for weight
and duration. I.e., the Powerstream Li-Ion pack, with charger, is $220,
while a 12V NiMH pack is about $35 plus $25 for a charger from
"http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=441".

These are just examples of batteries, you could also use an inexpensive
lead acid battery, i.e. "http://www.zbattery.com/bp3-12.html".

There really is no excuse for the high prices of the HID bicycle lights,
other than it's what the market will bear. The combination LED/HID is
clever, but you could always use a separate LED or dynamo light when you
just need to be seen, and stay legal and don't care about lighting up
the road.

Date: 02 May 2007 08:11:57
From: DanKMTB@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 11:04 am, "Clive George" <c...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote:
> It's sufficient that you wouldn't want to put one on a our-and-out racing
> bike. That said, I wouldn't let the weight bother me on such a climb - I've
> got a whole lot of other crap as well, which indicates I generally have
> other priorities.
>
> (this applies to any fixed-in-place lighting setup)
>
> cheers,
> clive

My road bike is a 60's or 70's steel Rudge singlespeed, with fenders.
I keep my tailight on 24/7, but the headlight comes and goes as I need
it for riding, and as it's around when I need a quick flashlight. I
wouldn't call it a race bike, but it's light and well lubricated. Low
rolling resistance and light weight are two of the three things that I
believe allow me to do some long (for me) rides on this rig (the third
being comfort).

That said, suggestions and opinions appreciated.

Date: 02 May 2007 16:37:25
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

<DanKMTB@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178118717.293239.244650@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On May 2, 11:04 am, "Clive George" <c...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> It's sufficient that you wouldn't want to put one on a our-and-out racing
>> bike. That said, I wouldn't let the weight bother me on such a climb -
>> I've
>> got a whole lot of other crap as well, which indicates I generally have
>> other priorities.
>>
>> (this applies to any fixed-in-place lighting setup)
>
> My road bike is a 60's or 70's steel Rudge singlespeed, with fenders.
> I keep my tailight on 24/7, but the headlight comes and goes as I need
> it for riding, and as it's around when I need a quick flashlight. I
> wouldn't call it a race bike, but it's light and well lubricated. Low
> rolling resistance and light weight are two of the three things that I
> believe allow me to do some long (for me) rides on this rig (the third
> being comfort).

The extra weight of a dynamo set + lamp shouldn't be enough to stop you
doing long rides, unless you're very 'princess and the pea'.

cheers,
clive

Date: 02 May 2007 07:56:24
From: DanKMTB@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 10:44 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
> Will wrote:
> > I bought a B&M bottle dynamo and Dymotec LED lamp for my street bike.
> > It is an excellent setup. Bright and utterly dependable. Also (to my
> > surprise) the bottle dynamo is not noticeable when it is engaged.
>
> I have a B&M bottle on the freighter, and it works well. But if one is
> willing to spend money then a SON hub is just much, much, much better.
>
> Never having to worry about lights (including remembering to have them
> with you, and making sure the batteries are juiced) is what I really
> like. They are easily bright /enough/ for the road unless it's an unlit
> road downhill at high speed. I stopped using my brighter and more
> powerful rechargeables after I got the dynohub: just something extra to
> faff with that didn't need faffing with.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Just last night I got caught up at the beach longer than planned, and
wondered if I'd make it to the shop to pick the bike up before
nightfall. The LEO in this area isn't bike friendly, and being out on
a road bike without lights will get you a ticket - especially if
you're wearing a helmet.
That said, I can definately see the attraction of a hub powered
light. Have you checked the resistance of the B&M when turned on by
hand to get an idea how much drag there is? It's good to hear some
people don't notice it when riding.
Also, what's the weight penalty for a setup like this?

It would have been great last night, but I could see myself cursing it
on a tough climb on a sunny day.

Date: 02 May 2007 16:36:32
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

DanKMTB@gmail.com wrote:

> That said, I can definately see the attraction of a hub powered
> light. Have you checked the resistance of the B&M when turned on by
> hand to get an idea how much drag there is? It's good to hear some
> people don't notice it when riding.

I notice the B&M bottle by /noise/ rather than drag, but the SON just
makes like it isn't there, aside from the light coming on

> Also, what's the weight penalty for a setup like this?

Compared to carting serious rechargeable batteries, pretty much zip, but
the downside is you're carrying the weight all the time, including when
you know it won't go dark on you. For that reason alone I wouldn't want
a SON on serious sporting machinery, but I ride a tourer with whistles,
bells and kitchen sink on board and it really doesn't bother me.

> It would have been great last night, but I could see myself cursing it
> on a tough climb on a sunny day.

How minimal is the rest of the bike? Unless "very" I wouldn't worry too
much. Or alternatively you could just keep your current wheel to swap
out to on a glorious day with hills and no darkness any time soon since
a SON will need a wheel build. Swapping out is simply a matter of
sliding off two spade connectors and undoing the wheel. I guess it
would be smart to tape the spare ends to the fork leg, just in case, but
it's all pretty trivial.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 02 May 2007 16:04:38
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

<DanKMTB@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1178117784.760516.93740@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

> Also, what's the weight penalty for a setup like this?
>
> It would have been great last night, but I could see myself cursing it
> on a tough climb on a sunny day.

It's sufficient that you wouldn't want to put one on a our-and-out racing
bike. That said, I wouldn't let the weight bother me on such a climb - I've
got a whole lot of other crap as well, which indicates I generally have
other priorities.

(this applies to any fixed-in-place lighting setup)

cheers,
clive

Date: 02 May 2007 07:39:06
From: Will
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 7:57 am, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com > wrote:

> HID lights are the brightest out there, so it's
> HID for me!

That's true. I have a Blow Torch. But you should know the lamps have
durability issues and cost at least $85 to replace. You will want a
spare.

I bought a B&M bottle dynamo and Dymotec LED lamp for my street bike.
It is an excellent setup. Bright and utterly dependable. Also (to my
surprise) the bottle dynamo is not noticeable when it is engaged.

Date: 02 May 2007 15:44:05
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Will wrote:

> I bought a B&M bottle dynamo and Dymotec LED lamp for my street bike.
> It is an excellent setup. Bright and utterly dependable. Also (to my
> surprise) the bottle dynamo is not noticeable when it is engaged.

I have a B&M bottle on the freighter, and it works well. But if one is
willing to spend money then a SON hub is just much, much, much better.

Never having to worry about lights (including remembering to have them
with you, and making sure the batteries are juiced) is what I really
like. They are easily bright /enough/ for the road unless it's an unlit
road downhill at high speed. I stopped using my brighter and more
powerful rechargeables after I got the dynohub: just something extra to
faff with that didn't need faffing with.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 02 May 2007 06:09:58
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 12:10 pm, Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
> performancebike.com, anyway])....
>
> TIA, folks!

Check out AYUP lights, www.ayup.com
getting a very good rap in Australia.

donga

Date: 02 May 2007 05:59:16
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 2:42 am, Bill <b...@comcast.net > wrote:
>
>
> I hope that means either HID or LED because those are two different worlds.
> HID is a High Intensity Discharge lamp that is bright.
> LED is a Light Emitting Diode that is pretty good too.
> The HID should be more expensive due to the high voltage drive
> electronics but either is more reliable than a hot filament going over
> the road.
> Bill Baka

Nah, performancebike.com really has it listed as "HID/LED"...I'm
chalking it up to a typo.

Not sure what "a hot filament going over the road" means with respect
to reliability, though....

Date: 02 May 2007 15:55:28
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:
> On May 2, 2:42 am, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> I hope that means either HID or LED because those are two different worlds.
>> HID is a High Intensity Discharge lamp that is bright.
>> LED is a Light Emitting Diode that is pretty good too.
>> The HID should be more expensive due to the high voltage drive
>> electronics but either is more reliable than a hot filament going over
>> the road.
>> Bill Baka
>
>
> Nah, performancebike.com really has it listed as "HID/LED"...I'm
> chalking it up to a typo.
>
> Not sure what "a hot filament going over the road" means with respect
> to reliability, though....
>
The Tungsten is more prone to breaking from the vibration in a bike than
in a car, and that is more than in a house light. Filaments burn out in
a supernova, LEDs may dim over years, and HIDs may dim just a bit after
a bunch of years.
Three different types of light.
Bill Baka

Date: 02 May 2007 12:03:04
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Bill wrote:

> The Tungsten is more prone to breaking from the vibration in a bike than
> in a car, and that is more than in a house light. Filaments burn out in
> a supernova, LEDs may dim over years, and HIDs may dim just a bit after
> a bunch of years.
> Three different types of light.

Personally, I'd rather over-voltage a quartz-halogen lamp to achieve the
illumination level of HID, and carry a spare bulb for when it burns out
in that supernova.

For example, the TrailTech MR11 size HID is rated at 500 lumens and
draws 13 watts, and costs $115. I can buy a set of two MR16 housings, 10
watt lamps (spot and flood), and can over voltage by 10% and be at over
500 lumens, for a lot less money. If I use only one at a time, the power
consumption is actually a bit less than the HID.

All this assumes that I actually need that much illumination. Personally
I think that a lot of people are going way overboard on lighting. While
it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going to provide
sufficient illumination in most situations, there are fine
quartz-halogen or xenon rechargaeable systems available for well under
$100 that provide more than adequate illumination.

Date: 02 May 2007 22:32:30
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> The Tungsten is more prone to breaking from the vibration in a bike
>> than in a car, and that is more than in a house light. Filaments burn
>> out in a supernova, LEDs may dim over years, and HIDs may dim just a
>> bit after a bunch of years.
>> Three different types of light.
>
> Personally, I'd rather over-voltage a quartz-halogen lamp to achieve the
> illumination level of HID, and carry a spare bulb for when it burns out
> in that supernova.

That works only if you have a sanitary, well clean, cloth to change the
bulb. The Quartz will shatter from the skin oils if you touch it.
>
> For example, the TrailTech MR11 size HID is rated at 500 lumens and
> draws 13 watts, and costs $115. I can buy a set of two MR16 housings, 10
> watt lamps (spot and flood), and can over voltage by 10% and be at over
> 500 lumens, for a lot less money. If I use only one at a time, the power
> consumption is actually a bit less than the HID.
>
> All this assumes that I actually need that much illumination. Personally
> I think that a lot of people are going way overboard on lighting. While
> it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going to provide
> sufficient illumination in most situations, there are fine
> quartz-halogen or xenon rechargaeable systems available for well under
> $100 that provide more than adequate illumination.

Since I don't blast through unknown territory at 25 MPH at night my main
use is for cars to see me. My LED Cateye gives me enough light for maybe
15 MPH safely. Faster and I might find a pothole the hard way. This may
sound a bit strange but my night vision is good enough that I can ride
trails by a full moon alone. That's a beneficial side effect of working
indoors with computers most of the time and wearing 10% pass polarized
UV blocker goggles in the day time.
Your needs may vary.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 May 2007 17:58:25
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Bill wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> The Tungsten is more prone to breaking from the vibration in a bike
>>> than in a car, and that is more than in a house light. Filaments burn
>>> out in a supernova, LEDs may dim over years, and HIDs may dim just a
>>> bit after a bunch of years.
>>> Three different types of light.
>>
>> Personally, I'd rather over-voltage a quartz-halogen lamp to achieve
>> the illumination level of HID, and carry a spare bulb for when it
>> burns out in that supernova.
>
> That works only if you have a sanitary, well clean, cloth to change the
> bulb. The Quartz will shatter from the skin oils if you touch it.

Not if you're using MR11 or MR16 lamps, which most rechargeable bicycle
lights now use. You don't touch the actual bulb, just the reflector/lens.

Date: 04 May 2007 01:14:34
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> SMS wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Tungsten is more prone to breaking from the vibration in a bike
>>>> than in a car, and that is more than in a house light. Filaments
>>>> burn out in a supernova, LEDs may dim over years, and HIDs may dim
>>>> just a bit after a bunch of years.
>>>> Three different types of light.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'd rather over-voltage a quartz-halogen lamp to achieve
>>> the illumination level of HID, and carry a spare bulb for when it
>>> burns out in that supernova.
>>
>> That works only if you have a sanitary, well clean, cloth to change
>> the bulb. The Quartz will shatter from the skin oils if you touch it.
>
> Not if you're using MR11 or MR16 lamps, which most rechargeable bicycle
> lights now use. You don't touch the actual bulb, just the reflector/lens.

Yeah,
Situations vary. Many car bulbs have no protection and I have zero
experience with bike bulbs. I like LEDs.
Bill Baka

Date: 03 May 2007 18:44:24
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Bill wrote:

> Yeah,
> Situations vary. Many car bulbs have no protection and I have zero
> experience with bike bulbs. I like LEDs.

Once you get into the higher power LEDs you have heat issues as well.
For example, the inolights had a problem where components were
desoldering themselves due to excessive heat. The 5W Luxeon lamps don't
have the same essentially unlimited lifetime that the low power LEDs have.

For lights with high brightness and high efficiency, I think we'll all
eventually be using HID lamps eventually, the LED lamps have too many
issues with beam coherency and heat diffusion. They're great for "being
seen" lamps, and for low wattage flashlights, but not for things like
headlights.

Date: 03 May 2007 19:21:32
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Yeah,
>> Situations vary. Many car bulbs have no protection and I have zero
>> experience with bike bulbs. I like LEDs.
>
> Once you get into the higher power LEDs you have heat issues as well.
> For example, the inolights had a problem where components were
> desoldering themselves due to excessive heat. The 5W Luxeon lamps don't
> have the same essentially unlimited lifetime that the low power LEDs have.

I have had the problem of diodes coming unsoldered in power supplies
that I was 'supposed to be' the head engineer on, but the boss decided
they were 'good enough' to ship. Needless to say I was indignant about
shipping a product with a known failure mode, but over-ruled by
management. The same probably happened in the design of the self
unsoldering inolights.
>
> For lights with high brightness and high efficiency, I think we'll all
> eventually be using HID lamps eventually, the LED lamps have too many
> issues with beam coherency and heat diffusion. They're great for "being
> seen" lamps, and for low wattage flashlights, but not for things like
> headlights.
>
Give it time. HID lamps require a lot of drive electronics no matter
what type they are, and LED lamps can be limited with a simple resistor,
as is my Cateye with 5 LEDs. An active switching power supply could
ensure better efficiency but would drive the cost of a $30 light to
about $50, $15 of that being profit. I think LEDs will get bigger and
better over time until they can take over the HID type. Computers double
in power about every 2 years and some of that research applies to LEDs
as a side effect in materials research. Consider that I have seen LASER
LEDs in big metal power packages so visible LEDs could go there if there
were more demand than just the bicycle market.
Bill Baka

Date: 04 May 2007 13:57:06
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Bill wrote:

> Give it time. HID lamps require a lot of drive electronics no matter
> what type they are, and LED lamps can be limited with a simple resistor,
> as is my Cateye with 5 LEDs.

The resistor limiting is very inefficient. The system used in the
inolight is probably a switching buck regulator with an efficiency of
well over 90%. When you're running on batteries or a dynamo you don't
want to be wasting power through resistors.

An active switching power supply could
> ensure better efficiency but would drive the cost of a $30 light to
> about $50,

Nah, the switchers are very cheap. In volume, about $1 for the IC, plus
maybe another $1 for the other components and PCB. It would drive the
final price up by maybe $5, in volume, but of course it's cheaper to not
bother and just have shorter battery life.

> I think LEDs will get bigger and
> better over time until they can take over the HID type.

Highly unlikely. Already, the heat problems of just the 5W LEDs are
severe. It's extremely difficult to transfer that much heat from the
junction to a heat sink.

HIDs are pretty cheap to make, it's just that they're a boutique item at
this time, so the auto manufacturers and after-market can charge a lot
for the. The ballast electronics are not anything high-tech, just a
smaller version of ballasts used in other types of high voltage lights.

Date: 02 May 2007 14:49:34
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:

> For example, the TrailTech MR11 size HID is rated at 500 lumens and
> draws 13 watts, and costs $115. I can buy a set of two MR16 housings, 10
> watt lamps (spot and flood), and can over voltage by 10% and be at over
> 500 lumens, for a lot less money. If I use only one at a time, the power
> consumption is actually a bit less than the HID.

Following up on my own post, I notice that TrailTech sells a complete
single lamp 13W/500 lumens HID system, including bar clamp that will fit
7/8" through 1.25" bars, a helmet mount, 13.2V/3.7AH NiMH battery
(49WH), and charger, for $200. This battery should run the light for
more than three hours.

See page 47 of "http://trailtech.net/media/catalog/TT-CAT-07_lowres.pdf"

Date: 03 May 2007 18:00:48
From: Friday
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
>> For example, the TrailTech MR11 size HID is rated at 500 lumens and
>> draws 13 watts, and costs $115. I can buy a set of two MR16 housings,
>> 10 watt lamps (spot and flood), and can over voltage by 10% and be at
>> over 500 lumens, for a lot less money. If I use only one at a time,
>> the power consumption is actually a bit less than the HID.
>
> Following up on my own post, I notice that TrailTech sells a complete
> single lamp 13W/500 lumens HID system, including bar clamp that will fit
> 7/8" through 1.25" bars, a helmet mount, 13.2V/3.7AH NiMH battery
> (49WH), and charger, for $200. This battery should run the light for
> more than three hours.
>
> See page 47 of "http://trailtech.net/media/catalog/TT-CAT-07_lowres.pdf"

I've been using a 13 watt trailtech for about a year and a half now and
it hasn't missed a beat.
Very good value for money. I use a 11.1 volt 3.5 amp.hour lithium
battery and get a minimum of three hours use out of it.
I wouldn't hesitate to get another one.

Friday

Date: 03 May 2007 07:44:47
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Friday wrote:

> I've been using a 13 watt trailtech for about a year and a half now and
> it hasn't missed a beat.
> Very good value for money. I use a 11.1 volt 3.5 amp.hour lithium
> battery and get a minimum of three hours use out of it.
> I wouldn't hesitate to get another one.

That's good to know. There really is no reason for the insanely high
prices that some companies charge for HID lights.

Are you using the helmet mount light, or the chrome handlebar light?

Did you get the spot or the flood?

I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising toward
the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less than a good
dynamo system, and is far more effective.

Date: 04 May 2007 01:22:44
From: Friday
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:
> Friday wrote:
>
>> I've been using a 13 watt trailtech for about a year and a half now
>> and it hasn't missed a beat.
>> Very good value for money. I use a 11.1 volt 3.5 amp.hour lithium
>> battery and get a minimum of three hours use out of it.
>> I wouldn't hesitate to get another one.
>
> That's good to know. There really is no reason for the insanely high
> prices that some companies charge for HID lights.
>
> Are you using the helmet mount light, or the chrome handlebar light?
>
> Did you get the spot or the flood?
>
> I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising toward
> the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less than a good
> dynamo system, and is far more effective.

I bought mine before they came out with a decent mounting system for it.
It was marketed as a motorbike helmet light so I made my own mount for
it which works extremely well, despite its bland looks.

I use the flood, most of my riding is done in the bush, but even on the
road you can see way ahead anyway.

I've got a little web page for it here with some photos.

http://www.hyperactive.oz.nf/Light5/Light5.htm

Friday

Date: 03 May 2007 14:52:53
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Friday wrote:

> I've got a little web page for it here with some photos.
>
> http://www.hyperactive.oz.nf/Light5/Light5.htm
>
> Friday

Very nice. Now I see that they offer metal handlebar clamps in three
sizes, as well as the plastic adjustable clamp that comes with the
helmet kit.

I'm going to add some information about these lights to my web site,
"http://bicyclelighting.com" which gets a huge number of hits.

Date: 03 May 2007 15:56:56
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

SMS wrote:

> I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising toward
> the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less than a good
> dynamo system, and is far more effective.

Effective at what, though? Effective at excellent illumination with
juiced batteries? Yes. Effective at any illumination at all after
you've been running for longer than the batteries last? No. Effective
at any illumination at all if you didn't think to take your lights with
you and you're out later than you anticipated? No. Effective at any
illumination at all if your schedule was hectic and you just didn't get
round to recharging in time? No.

Saying "far more effective" than a dynamo setup without addressing what
dynamos can do that rechargeable setups don't is not doing anyone any
favours. Both can do what they do well better than the other, but a
sweeping "one is far more effective than the other, period" is, at best,
a foolish statement. I own both setups, so I can work from the
strengths of either as the job in hand suits. That the dynamo doesn't
do all the same jobs the rechargeables do doesn't detract from the fact
that on balance I find the dynamo systems far more useful and user
friendly, and that is a very, very important facet of how lighting
setups are "effective".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 04 May 2007 01:38:10
From: Friday
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Peter Clinch wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
>> I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising
>> toward the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less
>> than a good dynamo system, and is far more effective.
>
> Effective at what, though? Effective at excellent illumination with
> juiced batteries? Yes. Effective at any illumination at all after
> you've been running for longer than the batteries last? No. Effective
> at any illumination at all if you didn't think to take your lights with
> you and you're out later than you anticipated? No. Effective at any
> illumination at all if your schedule was hectic and you just didn't get
> round to recharging in time? No.
>
> Saying "far more effective" than a dynamo setup without addressing what
> dynamos can do that rechargeable setups don't is not doing anyone any
> favours. Both can do what they do well better than the other, but a
> sweeping "one is far more effective than the other, period" is, at best,
> a foolish statement. I own both setups, so I can work from the
> strengths of either as the job in hand suits. That the dynamo doesn't
> do all the same jobs the rechargeables do doesn't detract from the fact
> that on balance I find the dynamo systems far more useful and user
> friendly, and that is a very, very important facet of how lighting
> setups are "effective".
>
> Pete.

I think you're being pedantic. Obviously some people want/need lots of
light that a dynamo can't provide and they shouldn't be berated for it.

As an aside, I think "dynamo" is an old fashioned word and it feels
funny typing it. I've never heard an electrical engineer use that word
but I suppose it does the job.

Friday

Date: 03 May 2007 16:12:11
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

In article <463a1e8e$1_5@news.peopletelecom.com.au >,
Friday <nowhere@sometime.net.au > wrote:

> Peter Clinch wrote:
> > SMS wrote:
> >
> >> I think TrailTech needs to target some marketing and advertising
> >> toward the bicycle community. Their complete HID system costs less
> >> than a good dynamo system, and is far more effective.
> >
> > Effective at what, though? Effective at excellent illumination
> > with juiced batteries? Yes. Effective at any illumination at all
> > after you've been running for longer than the batteries last? No.
> > Effective at any illumination at all if you didn't think to take
> > your lights with you and you're out later than you anticipated?
> > No. Effective at any illumination at all if your schedule was
> > hectic and you just didn't get round to recharging in time? No.
> >
> > Saying "far more effective" than a dynamo setup without addressing
> > what dynamos can do that rechargeable setups don't is not doing
> > anyone any favours. Both can do what they do well better than the
> > other, but a sweeping "one is far more effective than the other,
> > period" is, at best, a foolish statement. I own both setups, so I
> > can work from the strengths of either as the job in hand suits.
> > That the dynamo doesn't do all the same jobs the rechargeables do
> > doesn't detract from the fact that on balance I find the dynamo
> > systems far more useful and user friendly, and that is a very, very
> > important facet of how lighting setups are "effective".
>
> I think you're being pedantic. Obviously some people want/need lots
> of light that a dynamo can't provide and they shouldn't be berated
> for it.

He's not being pedantic. He's pointing out that there are way in which
dynamo (or "generator") lights are superior to battery powered lights.
The assumption that "more = better" with which battery light makers hawk
their wares has serious problems. The "effectiveness" of a light system
depends on more than the power consumed in making the light.
Effectiveness also depends on how that light is put on the road and how
well it lets you see.

For my needs, battery powered lights are not acceptable. I need enough
light to see the road, and I need it for 8 hours or more at a time. The
battery powered lights that have sufficient runtime don't provide enough
illumination. For someone riding single track at night, my light
systems wouldn't be adequate because they don't function well at 3 mph.

Everyone's gotta make a choice based on the uses to which they will put
their light. For me, a 3W dynamo powered system with optics designed
for use on a bicycle, properly mounted low on the bike, does the job.
YMMV etc.

Date: 02 May 2007 21:10:56
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:4638e066$0$27239$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...

> While it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going to
> provide sufficient illumination in most situations

Oh, you were doing so well until you said that...

If you'd only put suitable caveats around your statements, such as SMS
thinks the 2.4-3W lamps are insufficient, but there are an awful lot of
people out there who find them perfectly adequate. I'm just about to go for
a ride using mine on unlit rural roads. I'll probably get to about 40mph...

cheers,
clive

Date: 02 May 2007 21:45:27
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Clive George wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:4638e066$0$27239$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>> While it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going to
>> provide sufficient illumination in most situations
>
> Oh, you were doing so well until you said that...
>
> If you'd only put suitable caveats around your statements, such as SMS
> thinks the 2.4-3W lamps are insufficient, but there are an awful lot of
> people out there who find them perfectly adequate. I'm just about to go
> for a ride using mine on unlit rural roads. I'll probably get to about
> 40mph...

I have a semi-regular ride back from a pal's which takes me about
10 miles through unlit countryside, which can be pitch dark at
these latitudes for a good chunk of the year. It's downhill most
of the way, and there's no shortage of interesting bends. I do it
with a 2.4W dynamo powered lamp to show me the way, so either I
have amazing powers of ESP or Scharf is, once again and as usual,
wildly overstating his case (my wife needs the amazing powers of
ESP too, as she manages the same ride with a similar SON and
Lumotec Oval).
Granted I do take it slower than the same route in full daylight,
but considering we both own high powered rechargeable sets and
can't be bothered to supplement our dynohubs with them for that
trip there's a fairly good indication it really /does/ provide
sufficient illumination.
And that's not "most situations". It's darker and faster than
"most situations".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 02 May 2007 16:50:53
From: Bob in CT
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On Wed, 02 May 2007 16:45:27 -0400, Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk >
wrote:

> Clive George wrote:
>> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4638e066$0$27239$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>
>>> While it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going to
>>> provide sufficient illumination in most situations
>> Oh, you were doing so well until you said that...
>> If you'd only put suitable caveats around your statements, such as SMS
>> thinks the 2.4-3W lamps are insufficient, but there are an awful lot of
>> people out there who find them perfectly adequate. I'm just about to go
>> for a ride using mine on unlit rural roads. I'll probably get to about
>> 40mph...
>
> I have a semi-regular ride back from a pal's which takes me about 10
> miles through unlit countryside, which can be pitch dark at these
> latitudes for a good chunk of the year. It's downhill most of the way,
> and there's no shortage of interesting bends. I do it with a 2.4W
> dynamo powered lamp to show me the way, so either I have amazing powers
> of ESP or Scharf is, once again and as usual, wildly overstating his
> case (my wife needs the amazing powers of ESP too, as she manages the
> same ride with a similar SON and Lumotec Oval).
> Granted I do take it slower than the same route in full daylight, but
> considering we both own high powered rechargeable sets and can't be
> bothered to supplement our dynohubs with them for that trip there's a
> fairly good indication it really /does/ provide sufficient illumination.
> And that's not "most situations". It's darker and faster than "most
> situations".
>
> Pete.

They can really provide that much light? My Niterider classic dual beam
with 12W halogen isn't nearly enough for me, if I use the 12W setting.
I've gone HID because of that.

--
Bob in CT

Date: 03 May 2007 08:12:35
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Bob in CT wrote:

> They can really provide that much light?

WHere "that much" means "quite sufficient" for road use if you're not
trying to maximise speed, yes, at least in my case. I'd want high power
rechargeables for off-road where you've got immediate route-finding
issues on the sub-meter scale, definitrely, but given a good quality
lamp (something like the D-Lumotec Oval is not just a cheap bulb wired
un in a box) the dynamo is enough for the road.

You can always go the twin lamp in series option as hub generators like
SONs are constant current devices, and these setups seem quite popular
on very long randoneuring runs, but I just don't feel the need.

One gotcha, do remember a small LED flashlight just in case you get a
puncture that needs fixing!

> My Niterider classic dual beam
> with 12W halogen isn't nearly enough for me, if I use the 12W setting.
> I've gone HID because of that.

I agree with other comments viz optics and over-bright, but in any case
"enough for you" and "enough for me" /could/ be different things. The
important thing is to note it is personal to some degree and shouldn't
be made a general case like some people try to do.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 02 May 2007 17:59:16
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

In article <op.trpv63kq3plkkk@esq03.mfh.com >,
"Bob in CT" <ctviggen.x@comcast.net > wrote:

> On Wed, 02 May 2007 16:45:27 -0400, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Clive George wrote:
> >> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:4638e066$0$27239$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> >>
> >>> While it's true that a 2.4-3 watt dynamo powered lamp isn't going
> >>> to provide sufficient illumination in most situations
> >> Oh, you were doing so well until you said that... If you'd only
> >> put suitable caveats around your statements, such as SMS
> >> thinks the 2.4-3W lamps are insufficient, but there are an awful
> >> lot of people out there who find them perfectly adequate. I'm
> >> just about to go for a ride using mine on unlit rural roads. I'll
> >> probably get to about 40mph...
> >
> > I have a semi-regular ride back from a pal's which takes me about
> > 10 miles through unlit countryside, which can be pitch dark at
> > these latitudes for a good chunk of the year. It's downhill most
> > of the way, and there's no shortage of interesting bends. I do it
> > with a 2.4W dynamo powered lamp to show me the way, so either I
> > have amazing powers of ESP or Scharf is, once again and as usual,
> > wildly overstating his case (my wife needs the amazing powers of
> > ESP too, as she manages the same ride with a similar SON and
> > Lumotec Oval).
> >
> > Granted I do take it slower than the same route in full daylight,
> > but considering we both own high powered rechargeable sets and
> > can't be bothered to supplement our dynohubs with them for that
> > trip there's a fairly good indication it really /does/ provide
> > sufficient illumination. And that's not "most situations". It's
> > darker and faster than "most situations".
>
> They can really provide that much light? My Niterider classic dual
> beam with 12W halogen isn't nearly enough for me, if I use the 12W
> setting. I've gone HID because of that.

There've been many discussions about this in this newsgroup over the
years, most of which degenerate into a shouting match. What I can say
from experience is that a good 3W dynamo system (in my case, a Lumotec
Oval Plus lamp and a Schmidt SON hub on one bike and a Lumotec standard
lamp with a Sanyo BB dynamo on the other) works fine. It gets a bit
washed out on urban streets with lots of headlights and street lights,
but is adequate. I have ridden dusk 'til dawn with these lights quite a
few times on dark rural roads including fast descents. They work fine,
I see well, and am perfectly comfortable with them.

I think overbright lights impair dark adaptation of the eye by making
nearby objects and the road immediately in front of the bike too bright.
Since you can't see effectively, you think you need to upgrade to a
brighter lights. Eventually you'll end up mounting a kleig light and
towing a gasoline powered generator. Most high powered lights have
inappropriate optics (they are often adapted from other uses, not
designed from the ground up as a bike light) and most are not designed
to be intelligently mounted on the bike. The light source needs to be
low- fork crown height or lower- to maximize its usefulness. Most
battery powered lights are designed to mount above the handlebar or-
even much worse- on your head.

There may also be differences in night vision that affect your
preference in lights. I seem to see well at night compared to many
people, although I have never had my night vision tested.

Date: 02 May 2007 05:57:14
From: Prisoner at War
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

On May 2, 3:31 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>
>
> If burn time is an issue get a hub dynamo unot, and then the burn time
> is as long as you keep moving. No fiascos with battery charging, no
> fiascos with forgetting your lights.
> Partner with the LED B&M D-Lumotec Oval Senso plus, switches the lamp on
> automagically when it starts getting gloomy so no moving parts on the
> switching to break either.
>
> Worth supplementing if you're doing a fast descent on an unlit road and
> don't want to slow down, but otherwise good for most stuff. The SON is
> the best of the hub dynamos, especially if you've a small front wheel.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I was looking into just that when I was first considering my 'bent,
but, to my way of thinking, the whole point of a light is its
brightness, and them HID lights are the brightest out there, so it's
HID for me! Besides, the NiteRider claims eight hours at 13.5
watts...even if it's really just five or six hours, that's still long
enough for most real-world applications I can imagine!

Date: 02 May 2007 09:45:24
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:
> On May 2, 3:31 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> If burn time is an issue get a hub dynamo unot, and then the burn time
>> is as long as you keep moving. No fiascos with battery charging, no
>> fiascos with forgetting your lights.
>> Partner with the LED B&M D-Lumotec Oval Senso plus, switches the lamp on
>> automagically when it starts getting gloomy so no moving parts on the
>> switching to break either.
>>
>> Worth supplementing if you're doing a fast descent on an unlit road and
>> don't want to slow down, but otherwise good for most stuff. The SON is
>> the best of the hub dynamos, especially if you've a small front wheel.
>>
>> Pete.
>> --
>> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
>> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
>> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
>> net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
>
>
> I was looking into just that when I was first considering my 'bent,
> but, to my way of thinking, the whole point of a light is its
> brightness, and them HID lights are the brightest out there, so it's
> HID for me! Besides, the NiteRider claims eight hours at 13.5
> watts...even if it's really just five or six hours, that's still long
> enough for most real-world applications I can imagine!
>

I think HID lights are overkill for the road. Since they're primarily
targeted for the off-road rider, the beam patterns are generally much
too wide also.

LED lights have been improving rapidly. I think they'll soon obsolete
all other technologies, if they haven't already.

Date: 02 May 2007 08:28:48
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

In article <1178110634.231125.86210@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com >,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com > wrote:

> On May 2, 3:31 am, Peter Clinch <p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > If burn time is an issue get a hub dynamo unot, and then the burn
> > time is as long as you keep moving. No fiascos with battery
> > charging, no fiascos with forgetting your lights. Partner with the
> > LED B&M D-Lumotec Oval Senso plus, switches the lamp on
> > automagically when it starts getting gloomy so no moving parts on
> > the switching to break either.
> >
> > Worth supplementing if you're doing a fast descent on an unlit road
> > and don't want to slow down, but otherwise good for most stuff.
> > The SON is the best of the hub dynamos, especially if you've a
> > small front wheel.
>
> I was looking into just that when I was first considering my 'bent,
> but, to my way of thinking, the whole point of a light is its
> brightness, and them HID lights are the brightest out there, so it's
> HID for me!

The point of a headlamp is not its brightness. The point of a headlamp
is providing useful light so that you can see where you are going. That
is as much a function of the optics of the light, not simply the power
consumption of the bulb. BTW, that's all the wattage rating is- it is
not a measure of light output. Bike lamp manufacturers have a tendency
to keep the output of their lights a confusing secret by mixing watts,
lumens, candlepower, etc.

> Besides, the NiteRider claims eight hours at 13.5 watts...even if
> it's really just five or six hours, that's still long enough for most
> real-world applications I can imagine!

Not mine. YMMV.

Date: 02 May 2007 08:31:57
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight

Prisoner at War wrote:
> I'm wondering whether to get the Light & Motion ARC Li-Ion Ultra HID
> or the NiteRider Moab HID/LED. They're both the same price but the
> NiteRider burns over 50% longer at the same highest level of
> brightness (if I'm reading the specs right -- in which case I'm
> surprised Light & Motion haven't lowered their price at all; also, I'm
> not sure what it means for the NiteRider to be "HID/LED" [according to
> performancebike.com, anyway])....

If burn time is an issue get a hub dynamo unot, and then the burn time
is as long as you keep moving. No fiascos with battery charging, no
fiascos with forgetting your lights.
Partner with the LED B&M D-Lumotec Oval Senso plus, switches the lamp on
automagically when it starts getting gloomy so no moving parts on the
switching to break either.

Worth supplementing if you're doing a fast descent on an unlit road and
don't want to slow down, but otherwise good for most stuff. The SON is
the best of the hub dynamos, especially if you've a small front wheel.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 02 May 2007 06:42:18
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Help Me Choose A Headlight