Interested in opinions

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Date: 16 Jun 2005 14:34:29
From: Jeff Grippe
Subject: Interested in opinions

I just got an answer to an email from someone who is a Windcheetah expert. I
curious about the groups opinion on some of his advice:

1. Helmets

He says:

Bicycle "helmets" are designed to protect you from falling off a normal
bike while travelling at less than 12mph (this is roughly what the
standards require). They are probably useful for people riding slowly on
tricky terrain, such as on mountain bikes off-road, but are of limited use
for fast road use. Of course the manufacturers use the fear of injury to
great effect to persuade people to buy their very-expensive expanded
polystyrene hats.

On a Wincheetah, or any recumbent trike, the likelihood that you're going
to fall off at the slow speeds that "helmets" are designed for is minimal.
The biggest risk is probably rolling the trike at high speed, in which
case a smooth-surfaced motorbike helmet would probably be needed. You are
also travelling feet-first, so any impact will usually involve your legs
much more than your head.

I've never worn a helmet while cycling, either on my touring bike, tandem,
or Windcheetah. My father never did either, nor his father, nor his father.

It's also interesting that since helmets became popular in the USA the
number of cyclist head injuries has actually increased... (see
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/29/national/29BIKE.html?ex=1119912520&ei=1&en=80540a8becba6541)

2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed

He Says:

Yes, the steering is twitchy at high speeds. Try to steer as lightly as
possible, and don't over-react to slight side-to-side motion (just relax
and let it happen). I usually steer with just two fingers. Stopping
pedalling can help too - pedalling at high speeds seems to move your
body-weight around just enough to set up the wobbles.

Thanks for the opinions.

Special note to Ed... Please feel free to join in and present your opinion
but you don't need to tell us (again) how much better you think deltas are.
And please don't insult or ridicule me or anyone who answers this subject
regardless of how they quote. I realize I have no control over how and what
you post so I am asking you nicely (I did say please) to be polite if you
choose to join in this topic.

Jeff

Date: 17 Jun 2005 04:30:46
From: Butch
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Hi Jeff, Here are a couple of comments on Helmets, I ride a bent
aprox. 6000 miles a year, since 1997, mostly on trails always with
Helmets.
1. I have a Helmet with holes in it made by the chain ring from a
Rans VRex, I fell in front of, I think the Helmet saved my life on that
one. We were not going that fast I tried to take a short cut and hit a
curb I could not get over with my Rans V2, and fell in front of my
buddy.
2. I was behind a Gold Rush riding 12 mph and saw him lose control
while fooling with water bottles, go off the trail, put his foot down
(a big mistake on bents) he went over the GR and landed on his face
splitting his helmet and breaking his leg. This on a old rail road bed
so the ground was hard with rocks on it. Experienced good GR rider.
Two of us saw this fall and agree without the helmet he likely would
not have survived.
3. I hit some slick slime on trail going slow, 14-16 mph, I went down
to the side, did a long slide got lots of impressive road rash, at the
end of fall as I was stopping I felt my head coming forward toward the
paved trail I tried to stop it but I could not, I managed to tuck my
chin a bit and hit the trail with the side edge of my helmet.
4. So you say, that is why I ride a tadpole, I have seen a good
tadpole go over doing a slow speed sharp turn, the rider is experenced
and it happened very quickly. He was not hurt and was wearing a
helmet.
5. I saw an older man on a new mountain bike, not assembled properly,
handle bars became lose and he fell hard landed on his head. No
helmet, lots of blood, ambulance
took him away, not sure of his status.
I can assure you of one thing on any bike when something bad happens
it happens very quickly and you can use any protection you can get. We
ride in Florida and have often done centuries, yes its hot but we
always ride with helmets. Its your life you are free to value it as
you please, heck I even see people who still smoke.

Happy Trails Butch

Jeff Grippe wrote:
> I just got an answer to an email from someone who is a Windcheetah expert. I
> curious about the groups opinion on some of his advice:
>
> 1. Helmets
>
> He says:
>
> Bicycle "helmets" are designed to protect you from falling off a normal
> bike while travelling at less than 12mph (this is roughly what the
> standards require). They are probably useful for people riding slowly on
> tricky terrain, such as on mountain bikes off-road, but are of limited use
> for fast road use. Of course the manufacturers use the fear of injury to
> great effect to persuade people to buy their very-expensive expanded
> polystyrene hats.
>
> On a Wincheetah, or any recumbent trike, the likelihood that you're going
> to fall off at the slow speeds that "helmets" are designed for is minimal.
> The biggest risk is probably rolling the trike at high speed, in which
> case a smooth-surfaced motorbike helmet would probably be needed. You are
> also travelling feet-first, so any impact will usually involve your legs
> much more than your head.
>
> I've never worn a helmet while cycling, either on my touring bike, tandem,
> or Windcheetah. My father never did either, nor his father, nor his father.
>
> It's also interesting that since helmets became popular in the USA the
> number of cyclist head injuries has actually increased... (see
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/29/national/29BIKE.html?ex=1119912520&ei=1&en=80540a8becba6541)
>
>
> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
>
> He Says:
>
> Yes, the steering is twitchy at high speeds. Try to steer as lightly as
> possible, and don't over-react to slight side-to-side motion (just relax
> and let it happen). I usually steer with just two fingers. Stopping
> pedalling can help too - pedalling at high speeds seems to move your
> body-weight around just enough to set up the wobbles.
>
>
> Thanks for the opinions.
>
> Special note to Ed... Please feel free to join in and present your opinion
> but you don't need to tell us (again) how much better you think deltas are.
> And please don't insult or ridicule me or anyone who answers this subject
> regardless of how they quote. I realize I have no control over how and what
> you post so I am asking you nicely (I did say please) to be polite if you
> choose to join in this topic.
>
> Jeff

Date: 17 Jun 2005 09:05:25
From: Jeff Grippe
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Butch" <Butchdz@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1119007846.915909.316150@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hi Jeff, Here are a couple of comments on Helmets, I ride a bent...a lot
> of stuff that is basically very pro-helmet

Ok then here is my question (my real question I suppose)

The Windcheetah has a headrest that is unusable / uncomfortable with my
standard Bell helmet. It appears to be either designed to be used without a
helmet or you have to have a helmet with a "cutout" for the headrest. Do
such helmets exist? If they do, is a helmet that basically exposes the back
of the head really offer you more protection than no helmet at all?

For the record I have had several bike/trike falls in my life that could
have been serious. Only one involved my head hitting something. I've always
worn a helmet so the time my head did go to the ground it was not a problem.

If I'm really going to learn to love the Windcheetah then I will have to
have some way of using the headrest (its really just a very high back seat)
otherwise it is more of a nusiance than a feature.

Thanks,
Jeff

Date: 17 Jun 2005 14:32:35
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe wrote:

> The Windcheetah has a headrest that is unusable / uncomfortable with
> my standard Bell helmet. It appears to be either designed to be used
> without a helmet or you have to have a helmet with a "cutout" for the
> headrest. Do such helmets exist? If they do, is a helmet that
> basically exposes the back of the head really offer you more
> protection than no helmet at all?

A Several of Windcheetah pilots of my acquaintance have solved this problem
by taking a hacksaw to the seat. I am of the opinion that both a HEADrest
is of dubious value. I am, however, trying to dial in a /neck/ rest on my
Trice XXL with, so far, a conspicuous lack of success. This is mounted such
that it would be below any h+lm+t were I to wear one which, on the trike is
rarely if ever.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
Every establishment needs an opposition.

Date: 17 Jun 2005 09:42:12
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe wrote:

> 1. Helmets
>
> He says:
>
> Bicycle "helmets" are designed to protect you from falling off a normal
> bike while travelling at less than 12mph (this is roughly what the
> standards require).

That's about the size of it. For road use we have quite a lot of data
about how serious head injuries have been affected by bike helmets from
places where compulsory wearing has been introduced, such as Australia.
And with increasing helmet use the change to the rate of serious head
injuries is... undetectable. In other words, there is no evidence that
helmets have reduced serious head injuries for road cycling.

Helmets will save you a bump and a nasty graze, there is no evidence
they'll save you from death or disability. That's what *has* happened,
it isn't a matter of prediction or opinion.

Have a look at www.cyclehelmets.org for more details.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 16 Jun 2005 22:25:18
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Date: 17 Jun 2005 05:29:25
From: Jeff Grippe
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:bfidncq9TrkD3y_fRVn-1g@comcast.com...
>
> Who made him a Windcheetah expert?
>
Well I didn't want to reveal too much information because I didn't ask his
permission to publically disclose the contents of his email and ask for
comments. He is a long time owner who has been public about being so. When
you compare that to me whose owned one for less than a month, he's an
expert. He doesn't work for AVD or have any formal connection to
Windcheetah, however. In the end his opinions are just his opinions.

Jeff

Date: 16 Jun 2005 21:48:29
From: Zenin
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com > wrote:
>snip<
> Bicycle "helmets" are designed to protect you from falling off a normal
> bike while travelling at less than 12mph (this is roughly what the
> standards require).

Most bicycle helmets also seem oddly designed...like somehow they are
trying to protect just the top of one's head? I can't imagine many
situations where the top of your head is the most likely part to get
hit. It's side impact that seems most likely to me. Bicycle helmets
remind me of the useless "skull cap helmets" that Harley riders like to
use.

Since these common bicycle helmets stick out far around the top of the
head, I'd imagine any side impact would hit this edge first...resulting
in a severe bending of the neck. Maybe that's the underlying cause of
the injuries the NY Times was pointing out?

> They are probably useful for people riding slowly on tricky terrain, such
> as on mountain bikes off-road, but are of limited use for fast road use.

Even more limited use on a 'bent IMHO. On a wedgie almost any fall
imaginable has your head flying at the ground. On a 'bent the opposite
is true.

> Special note to Ed... Please feel free to join in and present your opinion
> but you don't need to tell us (again) how much better you think deltas
> are.

Deltas are far better, so long as you don't ever ride faster then the
20mph that god intended a bike to be ridden. At god's recommended speed
of 12mph factors like aerodynamics and weight shift to the outside front
during turns are minimal.

Only a crazy speed freak would ever consider riding over 20mph where
aerodynamics and weight shift start to matter.

-Zenin

Date: 17 Jun 2005 15:30:12
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org > wrote in message
news:1118957635.64844@news.rhps.org...
>
> Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com> wrote:
[...]
>> Special note to Ed... Please feel free to join in and present your
>> opinion
>> but you don't need to tell us (again) how much better you think deltas
>> are.
>
> Deltas are far better, so long as you don't ever ride faster then the
> 20mph that god intended a bike to be ridden. At god's recommended
> speed
> of 12mph factors like aerodynamics and weight shift to the outside
> front
> during turns are minimal.
>
> Only a crazy speed freak would ever consider riding over 20mph where
> aerodynamics and weight shift start to matter.
>
> -Zenin

Zenin has read me correctly. It is the old, old story of the tortoise and
the hare.

We have different ideas of what speed is about and of what bicycles are for.
We are never going to agree about any of this since I regard him as a fool
and he regards me as a fool. However, he is the one who is playing fast and
loose with life and there are consequences for that which most only learn
about too late. Better to be safe than sorry.

Listen to me and you will live longer and be just as happy as those who are
always rushing about attempting to experience something called speed. Cheap
thrills which risk life and limb are for idiots.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Date: 16 Jun 2005 15:34:22
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Jeff Grippe" <jgrippe@hilldun.com > wrote in message
news:11b3hiurlp84p84@news.supernews.com...
>I just got an answer to an email from someone who is a Windcheetah expert.
>I curious about the groups opinion on some of his advice:
>
> 1. Helmets
>
> He says:
>
> Bicycle "helmets" are designed to protect you from falling off a normal
> bike while travelling at less than 12mph (this is roughly what the
> standards require). They are probably useful for people riding slowly on
> tricky terrain, such as on mountain bikes off-road, but are of limited use
> for fast road use. Of course the manufacturers use the fear of injury to
> great effect to persuade people to buy their very-expensive expanded
> polystyrene hats.
>
> On a Wincheetah, or any recumbent trike, the likelihood that you're going
> to fall off at the slow speeds that "helmets" are designed for is minimal.
> The biggest risk is probably rolling the trike at high speed, in which
> case a smooth-surfaced motorbike helmet would probably be needed. You are
> also travelling feet-first, so any impact will usually involve your legs
> much more than your head.
>
> I've never worn a helmet while cycling, either on my touring bike, tandem,
> or Windcheetah. My father never did either, nor his father, nor his
> father.
>
> It's also interesting that since helmets became popular in the USA the
> number of cyclist head injuries has actually increased... (see
> http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/29/national/29BIKE.html?ex=1119912520&ei=1&en=80540a8becba6541)

Anyone who thinks a discussion on bicycle helmets is a worth while
discussion was born yesterday. I refuse to touch this shop worn topic. The
rest of you can have some fun with it, but I have exhausted my patience on
the topic with an assortment of nuts and screwballs who have heads far
harder than any helmet.

> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
>
> He Says:
>
> Yes, the steering is twitchy at high speeds. Try to steer as lightly as
> possible, and don't over-react to slight side-to-side motion (just relax
> and let it happen). I usually steer with just two fingers. Stopping
> pedalling can help too - pedalling at high speeds seems to move your
> body-weight around just enough to set up the wobbles.

He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End of
discussion!

> Thanks for the opinions.
>
> Special note to Ed... Please feel free to join in and present your opinion
> but you don't need to tell us (again) how much better you think deltas
> are. And please don't insult or ridicule me or anyone who answers this
> subject regardless of how they quote. I realize I have no control over how
> and what you post so I am asking you nicely (I did say please) to be
> polite if you choose to join in this topic.

I have already said all I plan to say on the two subjects you bring to the
table - unless and until of course someone says something amazingly and
incredibly stupid. As usual, I am expecting that I won't be disappointed by
my fellow ARBR'ers.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Date: 16 Jun 2005 16:51:45
From: Jeff Grippe
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:ae-dnemYZZjIfyzfRVn-gg@prairiewave.com...

> Anyone who thinks a discussion on bicycle helmets is a worth while
> discussion was born yesterday....

Ok so I was born yesterday. You opinion is?

>> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
> He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End of
> discussion!

So you agree that there are techniques for riding safely at high speed?

> I have already said all I plan to say on the two subjects you bring to the
> table - unless and until of course someone says something amazingly and
> incredibly stupid. As usual, I am expecting that I won't be disappointed
> by my fellow ARBR'ers.
>

So why exactly do you want to be part of a group that you consider to be
"amazingly and incredible stupid"?

PS...Don't actually bother to answer the personal questions. If you really
have nothing to say about the topics then just leave it alone. I would be
interested in your opinion about helmets. I, the youth, haven't had this
discussion before and certainly not related to trikes. As I've said before
we actually agree on the speed question.

Date: 16 Jun 2005 22:13:38
From: Zenin
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com > wrote:
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
>>> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
>> He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End of
>> discussion!
>
> So you agree that there are techniques for riding safely at high speed?

There is only one technique for riding at high speed; slow down. God
didn't intend bicycles to travel faster then 20mph.

-Zenin

Date: 16 Jun 2005 22:26:11
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org > wrote in message
news:1118959144.582956@news.rhps.org...
> Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com> wrote:
> > "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
> >>> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
> >> He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End
of
> >> discussion!
> >
> > So you agree that there are techniques for riding safely at high speed?
>
> There is only one technique for riding at high speed; slow down. God
> didn't intend bicycles to travel faster then 20mph.
>
> -Zenin

How exactly do you know God didn't intend bicycles to travel slower than 20?

Date: 17 Jun 2005 03:58:52
From: Zenin
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

k Leuck <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote:
> "Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org> wrote:
>> Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com> wrote:
>> > "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
>> >>> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
>> >> He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End
>> >> of discussion!
>> >
>> > So you agree that there are techniques for riding safely at high speed?
>>
>> There is only one technique for riding at high speed; slow down. God
>> didn't intend bicycles to travel faster then 20mph.
>>
>> -Zenin
>
> How exactly do you know God didn't intend bicycles to travel slower than 20?

I was joking. :-) Ed has made a few comments recently basically
declaring anything over 20mph isn't "bicycle speed". That somehow
bicycles weren't "designed" to go any faster then that. That anyone
daring to do so is basically a dangerous, reckless, fool.

Given this premise the rest of his arguments suddenly make a lot of
sense. If a bicycle isn't going to go over 20mph the aerodynamic
advantage of a recumbent suddenly doesn't mean much of anything. Nore
does the lower CG much for handling. Or to get back on topic a bit
neither does the added cornering stability a trike gains by using two
front wheels instead of "delta". And of course since it isn't that hard
for a strong rider to push over 20mph on either a wedgie or bent one
must advocate a riding situation where such "dangerous high speeds"
won't typically be reached; namely steep hills.

So sure, if you're never planning on breaking 20mph, a wedgie can't be
beat.

-Zenin

Date: 17 Jun 2005 15:16:41
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org > wrote in message
news:1118979855.927545@news.rhps.org...
> k Leuck <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org> wrote:
>>> Jeff Grippe <jgrippe@hilldun.com> wrote:
>>> > "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
>>> >>> 2. Pedal Steer and Instability at high Speed
>>> >> He is 100% right and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. End
>>> >> of discussion!
>>> >
>>> > So you agree that there are techniques for riding safely at high
>>> > speed?
>>>
>>> There is only one technique for riding at high speed; slow down.
>>> God
>>> didn't intend bicycles to travel faster then 20mph.
>>>
>>> -Zenin
>>
>> How exactly do you know God didn't intend bicycles to travel slower than
>> 20?
>
> I was joking. :-) Ed has made a few comments recently basically
> declaring anything over 20mph isn't "bicycle speed". That somehow
> bicycles weren't "designed" to go any faster then that. That anyone
> daring to do so is basically a dangerous, reckless, fool.

Ed Dolan staunchly maintains that everything above will remain true until
the end of time. Man was designed for a walking speed. Once you exceed that,
other factors began to kick in which make us more and more prone to error
and accidents. That is why the 55 mph speed limit was such a good idea. The
slower we go, the safer we are.

I do regard Zenin as a speed freak who is not all there. Anyone who thinks
it is cool to go 50 mph on a bicycle is not playing the game of life with a
full deck of cards. Zenin is not a bicycle lover at all - he is merely a
speed freak. He is the kind of person who is happiest at an amusement park
where they have all those gravity toys for the children and adults who have
never grown up.

> Given this premise the rest of his arguments suddenly make a lot of
> sense. If a bicycle isn't going to go over 20mph the aerodynamic
> advantage of a recumbent suddenly doesn't mean much of anything. Nore
> does the lower CG much for handling. Or to get back on topic a bit
> neither does the added cornering stability a trike gains by using two
> front wheels instead of "delta". And of course since it isn't that
> hard
> for a strong rider to push over 20mph on either a wedgie or bent one
> must advocate a riding situation where such "dangerous high speeds"
> won't typically be reached; namely steep hills.

I regard the 15 to 20 mph range as sufficiently fast for a bicycle. I mostly
ride in the 10 to 15 mph range myself. Considering that we have evolved for
a 5 mph walking speed, a bicycle can't be beat for the trade off between
going faster and still remaining safe. However, to attempt speeds much above
30 mph is totally insane. Such riders have terrible accidents. I have seen
them at the base of steep hills, bleeding and unconscious. All I am ever
thinking as I poke by at my "slow" speed is that the herd is being thinned
of homo stupidus!

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Date: 17 Jun 2005 22:28:29
From: Zenin
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Edward Dolan <edolan@iw.net > wrote:
> "Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org> wrote:
>snip<
>> I was joking. :-) Ed has made a few comments recently basically
>> declaring anything over 20mph isn't "bicycle speed". That somehow
>> bicycles weren't "designed" to go any faster then that. That anyone
>> daring to do so is basically a dangerous, reckless, fool.
>
> Ed Dolan staunchly maintains that everything above will remain true until
> the end of time. Man was designed for a walking speed. Once you exceed
> that, other factors began to kick in which make us more and more prone to
> error and accidents. That is why the 55 mph speed limit was such a good
> idea. The slower we go, the safer we are.

Well yes, but so what?

People reach their thrill point at different levels and for different
reasons. Obviously you reach your thrill point far early then I do,
which of course is fine as things go. But I'd wager the vast majority
of cyclists are much closer to my point then yours.

> I do regard Zenin as a speed freak who is not all there. Anyone who thinks
> it is cool to go 50 mph on a bicycle is not playing the game of life with
> a full deck of cards. Zenin is not a bicycle lover at all - he is merely a
> speed freak.

You and I simply enjoy different aspects of cycling. The world of
cycling has a huge range of styles. I'm not going to disparage your
love of cycling; why do you feel you must disparage mine?

I do admit I find your speed threshold to be particularly odd and
clearly far out of the mainstream, but if that's the speed you like to
ride at that's your business. I only take issue with your instance that
it's the only way anyone should ride and thus dismiss any discussion
about aspects of riding that would occur only at higher speeds. There
is far more in the world of cycling them climbing steep hills even if
you choose not to partake.

> He is the kind of person who is happiest at an amusement park where they
> have all those gravity toys for the children and adults who have never
> grown up.

What's the point in growing up, exactly?

> I regard the 15 to 20 mph range as sufficiently fast for a bicycle. I
> mostly ride in the 10 to 15 mph range myself.

15-20mph is moderate for inline skates. But again you're welcome to
stay in that range yourself, however please be polite and stay to the
right both in traffic and metaphorically in discussions here.

> Considering that we have evolved for a 5 mph walking speed, a bicycle
> can't be beat for the trade off between going faster and still remaining
> safe.

If your sole objective is safty why are you on a bike? There are much
safer forms of transportation.

> However, to attempt speeds much above 30 mph is totally insane. Such
> riders have terrible accidents. I have seen them at the base of steep
> hills, bleeding and unconscious. All I am ever thinking as I poke by at my
> "slow" speed is that the herd is being thinned of homo stupidus!

Let me guess, you're not a fan of motorcycling either. :-)

-Zenin

Date: 17 Jun 2005 18:37:02
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

"Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org > wrote in message
news:1119046426.581564@news.rhps.org...
> Edward Dolan <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
>> "Zenin" <zenin@rhps.org> wrote:
> >snip<
>>> I was joking. :-) Ed has made a few comments recently basically
>>> declaring anything over 20mph isn't "bicycle speed". That somehow
>>> bicycles weren't "designed" to go any faster then that. That anyone
>>> daring to do so is basically a dangerous, reckless, fool.
>>
>> Ed Dolan staunchly maintains that everything above will remain true until
>> the end of time. Man was designed for a walking speed. Once you exceed
>> that, other factors began to kick in which make us more and more prone to
>> error and accidents. That is why the 55 mph speed limit was such a good
>> idea. The slower we go, the safer we are.
>
> Well yes, but so what?

There is no quality of life without a sufficient quantity of life.

> People reach their thrill point at different levels and for different
> reasons. Obviously you reach your thrill point far early then I do,
> which of course is fine as things go. But I'd wager the vast majority
> of cyclists are much closer to my point then yours.
>
>> I do regard Zenin as a speed freak who is not all there. Anyone who
>> thinks
>> it is cool to go 50 mph on a bicycle is not playing the game of life with
>> a full deck of cards. Zenin is not a bicycle lover at all - he is merely
>> a
>> speed freak.
>
> You and I simply enjoy different aspects of cycling. The world of
> cycling has a huge range of styles. I'm not going to disparage your
> love of cycling; why do you feel you must disparage mine?

I am trying to prevent you from killing yourself.

> I do admit I find your speed threshold to be particularly odd and
> clearly far out of the mainstream, but if that's the speed you like to
> ride at that's your business. I only take issue with your instance
> that
> it's the only way anyone should ride and thus dismiss any discussion
> about aspects of riding that would occur only at higher speeds. There
> is far more in the world of cycling them climbing steep hills even if
> you choose not to partake.

Going down a steep hill at 50 mph is clearly out of the main stream too. As
slow as you seem to think I am, I am still faster than 90% of all cyclists.

>> He is the kind of person who is happiest at an amusement park where they
>> have all those gravity toys for the children and adults who have never
>> grown up.
>
> What's the point in growing up, exactly?

The young lack wisdom almost universally. The old possess wisdom almost
universally. You need wisdom in order to live a human life as opposed to a
monkey kind of life.

>> I regard the 15 to 20 mph range as sufficiently fast for a bicycle. I
>> mostly ride in the 10 to 15 mph range myself.
>
> 15-20mph is moderate for inline skates. But again you're welcome to
> stay in that range yourself, however please be polite and stay to the
> right both in traffic and metaphorically in discussions here.

I am always in and on the right - indeed!

By the way, the ERs are full of inline skaters too.

>> Considering that we have evolved for a 5 mph walking speed, a bicycle
>> can't be beat for the trade off between going faster and still remaining
>> safe.
>
> If your sole objective is safty why are you on a bike? There are much
> safer forms of transportation.

A bike is safe provided you have an adult intelligence and use it. But
granted, it is not as safe as walking.

>> However, to attempt speeds much above 30 mph is totally insane. Such
>> riders have terrible accidents. I have seen them at the base of steep
>> hills, bleeding and unconscious. All I am ever thinking as I poke by at
>> my
>> "slow" speed is that the herd is being thinned of homo stupidus!
>
> Let me guess, you're not a fan of motorcycling either. :-)

Motorcycles ought to be outlawed. There is no more dangerous vehicle. But
you would not get me up into one of those confounded helicopters either -
and I don't much like to fly in anything unless it is a matter of life or
death.

We humans were designed by hundreds of thousands of years of evolution for
walking. I'll bet you did not know that?

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Date: 16 Jun 2005 17:03:48
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe wrote:
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:ae-dnemYZZjIfyzfRVn-gg@prairiewave.com...
>
>
>>Anyone who thinks a discussion on bicycle helmets is a worth while
>>discussion was born yesterday....
>
>
> Ok so I was born yesterday. You opinion is?
>
>
>
>

I don't wear the helmet on bicycle trails, and am tending not to while
rural riding either. I just recently bought a new one, to replace the
one I bought in 1994. The rear-view mirror I use clips to my glasses.
Over the years most of the crashes I have heard of involved two things:
1) crossing train tracks at an angle, especially in the rain, and 2)
problems with motor traffic. .....I tend to think now that one is better
off (and more comfortable) not wearing the helmet and riding places
where there are few or no cars.

Date: 16 Jun 2005 19:51:13
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: Interested in opinions

Jeff Grippe wrote:
> I just got an answer to an email from someone who is a Windcheetah expert. I
> curious about the groups opinion on some of his advice:
>
> 1. Helmets
>
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

Bicycle helmets are designed for a 4 foot fall. IMHO if a bike helmet
gives a feeling of security, it is doing you a disservice.
--
Order Lords of the Chainring
http://www.calpoly.edu/~wpatters/lords.html

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