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Date: 05 Apr 2005 10:10:59
From: Robert Milligan
Subject: RANS Force 5 XP
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I have a new RANS Force 5 XP. I ordered it n Sept. 2004 and
received it in ch 2005. I have ridden it approximatwly 300 miles
since I received it. It is an extremely light,fast,sturdy bike.I am
well satisfied with the bike. I believe that I can sell my 2002 V2
now. Bob Milligan, Rock Island, IL
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Date: 05 Apr 2005 17:38:17
From: swamprun
Subject: Re: RANS Force 5 XP
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On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 10:10:59 -0500, Robert Milligan wrote:
> I have a new RANS Force 5 XP. I ordered it n Sept. 2004 and
> received it in ch 2005.
Dang, why did it take so long to get it ???
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Date: 06 Apr 2005 09:04:12
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
>
> "Jon Meinecke" <jonmein@nospam.net> wrote in message
>
> [Watt], even pissed off Nancy Reagan on that one
I hadn't considered the crossing Nancy may have been the
thing that got him eventually resigned. %^)
> The big 3's slide during the 70's was due to it not being able to adapt
> quickly which isn't the case now, at least they aren't any more or less
> quick to change than any other car company
Yes, it is tough to distinguish one big car company from another.
Toyota and Honda have gotten a head start on keting hybrids,
though...
The big three "American" are now multinationals. So are in fact
the Japanese big three... Is a Toyota Matrix (built in the same
plant in CA as the Pontiac Vibe) an American car? The Chevy
Aveo is from Korea, I think... Geo before that.
> True but the quality/reliability improvements were due to increased
> competition from the japanese car companies not because of high energy
> prices.
Perhaps the 70's oil crisis (prices, localized shortages, lines at gas
stations, fill-up limits) opened the door (wider) for Japanese cars...
The appeal of better fuel economy was greater when fuel was
harder to get and more expensive. OPEC flexing muscles.
"What's good for GM is good for the USA!"
> That was part of my point when this thread started, many of the militants
> here hope the price skyrockets so they can have more people participating
in
> their personal hobby which won't be the case. They will still be riding
the
> streets with SUV's (maybe slightly smaller ones) but the traffic will not
go
> away
As Douglas Adams might say, US car-free cities seem a
"finite improbability" even with current fuel prices doubling or
even tripling. ANWR will provide. %^) keting.
> > Maybe it will sell more Harley's, though... %^)
>
> Have you seen the poor fuel economy on those lately? :<)
Hummer might be characterized as a trophy/status/image vehicle
for most of their buyers. Harley has been that for many years
longer. keting. Somewhat different targets, probably. I
presume Harley mpg is still better than 10.
One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer (see their add in
DMN) has charts that show how much money you save in a
year if you move up from a 12/14/17 mpg vehicle to their
28/38/48 mpg offerings. keting.
"Plastics?" Forget it, Mr Robinson.
keting. The future is in keting. TSB.
Jon Meinecke
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Date: 06 Apr 2005 17:34:26
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"Jon Meinecke" <jonmein@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:1112796200.d671bf359b25e0798bc55c4ce586abc6@teranews...
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >
> > "Jon Meinecke" <jonmein@nospam.net> wrote in message
> >
> > [Watt], even pissed off Nancy Reagan on that one
>
> I hadn't considered the crossing Nancy may have been the
> thing that got him eventually resigned. %^)
It was for John Deaver if I remember right, or could have been Donald Regan
:)
> > The big 3's slide during the 70's was due to it not being able to adapt
> > quickly which isn't the case now, at least they aren't any more or less
> > quick to change than any other car company
>
> Yes, it is tough to distinguish one big car company from another.
> Toyota and Honda have gotten a head start on keting hybrids,
> though...
And they've done a good job of it however there are 2 problems with hybrids
1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more expensive
I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never make
up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they really
gained?
2. They are are much more complicated so you will later pay high maintenance
costs, Honda if I recall says the batteries will last 10 years but I'd
really like to see if that is indeed the case
I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance and higher
economy
> The big three "American" are now multinationals. So are in fact
> the Japanese big three... Is a Toyota Matrix (built in the same
> plant in CA as the Pontiac Vibe) an American car? The Chevy
> Aveo is from Korea, I think... Geo before that.
GM has heavy investments in Toyota, controlling interest in Suzuki and Dawoo
and owns Saab. Honda is on it's own and Nissan is controlled by Renault
> > True but the quality/reliability improvements were due to increased
> > competition from the japanese car companies not because of high energy
> > prices.
>
> Perhaps the 70's oil crisis (prices, localized shortages, lines at gas
> stations, fill-up limits) opened the door (wider) for Japanese cars...
> The appeal of better fuel economy was greater when fuel was
> harder to get and more expensive. OPEC flexing muscles.
> "What's good for GM is good for the USA!"
If you put it that way then yes the 70's crisis did improve vehicles because
of higher oil prices the japanese became bigger competitors....however fuel
was hard to get to only for a short amount of time in the US, those long
lines and shortages didn't last very long and only happened in certain areas
(at least I've never seen them)
Because cars are becoming more of a commodity the role of GM isn't like it
was, while they do sell more cars than the "good ole days" what's good for
the USA is now meant for IBM, Intel and Microsoft :)
> > That was part of my point when this thread started, many of the
militants
> > here hope the price skyrockets so they can have more people
participating
> in
> > their personal hobby which won't be the case. They will still be riding
> the
> > streets with SUV's (maybe slightly smaller ones) but the traffic will
not
> go
> > away
>
> As Douglas Adams might say, US car-free cities seem a
> "finite improbability" even with current fuel prices doubling or
> even tripling. ANWR will provide. %^) keting.
Unfortunatly Doug isn't saying anything now (bad humor). ANWR won't replace
OPEC but it would help prevent future spikes like this
> Hummer might be characterized as a trophy/status/image vehicle
> for most of their buyers. Harley has been that for many years
> longer. keting. Somewhat different targets, probably. I
> presume Harley mpg is still better than 10.
About 30 last time I checked however compared to other cycles it's pretty
poor
> One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer (see their add in
> DMN) has charts that show how much money you save in a
> year if you move up from a 12/14/17 mpg vehicle to their
> 28/38/48 mpg offerings. keting.
They don't tell you tho how you get to work in the rain or snow :)
> "Plastics?" Forget it, Mr Robinson.
> keting. The future is in keting. TSB.
TSB?
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Date: 07 Apr 2005 08:10:06
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote
>
> ... there are 2 problems with hybrids
>
> 1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
> expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
> subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more expensive
>
> I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
> people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never make
> up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they really
> gained?
A foothold? keting. Price is less subsidized than previously.
Higher fuel costs and public perceptions means ket will bear
higher prices. Hybrids are on "allocation" in many areas.
Air pollution is an indirect cost of motor vehicles. Hybrids might
reduce that cost (small effect). Not a simple equation. Have to
consider environmental costs of manufacturing and recycling
batteries, etc...
US'ers in some places buy hybrids for car-pool lane access.
Many people would pay $$$$ to reduce commute time.
> batteries will last 10 years
Battery replacement and recycling adds to cost. Toyota said
80,000 miles, I think.
> I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
> and higher economy
Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?
> [70's] fuel was hard to get to only for a short amount of time
> in the US, those long lines and shortages didn't last very long
> and only happened in certain areas (at least I've never seen them)
Perception. keting (OPEC) Pictures of gas lines
on TV went a long way...
> what's good for
> the USA is now meant for IBM, Intel and Microsoft :)
High-tech outsourcing. What's good for India, Shanghai,
Viet Nam, Czechoslovakia...
> Unfortunatly Doug isn't saying anything now (bad humor).
He makes an appearance in the recently released BBC _HHGG
Tertiary Phase_ series. By which, we now know why we will
never understand '42'.
> ANWR won't replace OPEC
What will replace ANWR? ;^(
Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.
> but [drilling ANWR] would help prevent future spikes like this
We may shall see. Incremental, likely small effect at best.
> > One sign of the times: a local Honda dealer
> > [...] keting.
>
> They don't tell you tho how you get to work in the rain or snow :)
It's a DFW Honda *car* dealer running ads showing fuel
operating cost comparisons.
> > keting. The future is in keting. TSB.
>
> TSB?
Oops, 'A', actually. TSA keting. Don't you feel safer now? %^P
US ket perceptions:
Recumbent bikes: weird, strange, fringe.
Bicycles: toys for children
Cycling: unsafe
H*lm*ts: !don't go there! %^)
Jon Meinecke
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Date: 07 Apr 2005 15:03:16
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"Jon Meinecke" <jonmein@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:1112879354.547618eadf0910c46f0b8c5366523467@teranews...
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote
> >
> > ... there are 2 problems with hybrids
> >
> > 1: They are currently being sold as loss leaders and are generally more
> > expensive than the gas version, If the manufacturers were to stop the
> > subsidies they would never sell any because they would much more
expensive
> >
> > I saw a Toyota SUV that sold for almost $4,000 more than the gas model,
> > people think they are saving money on fuel but forget they will never
make
> > up the difference in the premium price they paid, so what have they
really
> > gained?
>
> A foothold? keting. Price is less subsidized than previously.
> Higher fuel costs and public perceptions means ket will bear
> higher prices. Hybrids are on "allocation" in many areas.
Then if the ket will bear the higher vehicle prices it will also bear
higher fuel prices no?
Hybrids are hot sellers now because like the ipod they are more of a fashion
statement (my opinon anyway)
> Air pollution is an indirect cost of motor vehicles. Hybrids might
> reduce that cost (small effect). Not a simple equation. Have to
> consider environmental costs of manufacturing and recycling
> batteries, etc...
Lets see, more manufacturing for batteries, electric motors etc, more coal
generated electricity to recharge those cars. someone needs to do a study on
that stuff and see if all we're doing is moving around pollution and not
reducing it
> US'ers in some places buy hybrids for car-pool lane access.
> Many people would pay $$$$ to reduce commute time.
Most people still don't use the car-pool lane period
> > batteries will last 10 years
>
> Battery replacement and recycling adds to cost. Toyota said
> 80,000 miles, I think.
Unfortunatly manufacturers often overstate those kinds of figures, we shall
see if they hold up
> > I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
> > and higher economy
>
> Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
> Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?
Yes they use diesel powered electric motors although thats not used in the
same way as hybrid cars
> > [70's] fuel was hard to get to only for a short amount of time
> > in the US, those long lines and shortages didn't last very long
> > and only happened in certain areas (at least I've never seen them)
>
> Perception. keting (OPEC) Pictures of gas lines
> on TV went a long way...
At the time yes although when the times turned good they quickly forgot
those lines
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Date: 11 Apr 2005 08:28:52
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote
>
> Then if the ket will bear the higher vehicle prices it will also bear
> higher fuel prices no?
There may be a purchase price/operating expense trade-off
for higher fuel economy vehicles. I don't expect the price
of H2's to drop much as fuel prices raise, though. Our lot
is cast in a number of ways and fuel use will be slow to change.
We have a large number less-than-fuel-miserly vehicles in
service.
> someone needs to do a study on [centralizing power generation]
They have.
> that stuff and see if all we're doing is moving around pollution
We are.
> and not reducing it
Moving pollution sources actually may be a win; point sources
of emissions may be easier to retrofit, control and mitigate.
Non-polluting distributed systems might be better (generate power
closer to point of use) though. New technology may help. There
are many low-tech choices that reduce energy demand (earth
sheltering). Not to mention low-tech transportation, e.g. bicycles.
> Most people still don't use the car-pool lane period
Most people don't car-pool. In some areas non-car-poolers
can use the lanes if they have a qualifying vehicle (hybrid/electric).
> Unfortunatly manufacturers often overstate those kinds of
> figures, we shall see if they [hybrid batteries] hold up
Toyota warrants the batteries for 80,000, I think. It's their
dollar they are betting on their analysis.
> At the time yes although when the times turned good they
> quickly forgot those lines
They didn't forget that Japanese car lines offered many desirable
features.
Jon Meinecke
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Date: 07 Apr 2005 14:22:56
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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Jon Meinecke wrote:
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote
>> I personally wish they'd bring back diesel, lower maintenance
>> and higher economy
>
> Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
Fortunately over here it never went away, in spite of the MRTP latching onto
the popularity of diseasel cars in the early 90's and banging up the duty on
it to the extent that it is slightly /more/ expensive than petrol. In the
UK now, diesels account for about 1/3 of the new car ket; the proportion
is considerably higher in much of continental Europe where the fuel is still
much cheaper than petrol. Even top-end motorcars like the Mercedes S-class
and BMW 7-series can be had with oil-burners, and IIRC something like 50% of
S-classes sold in Germany are diesels.
The next round of Euro emissions standards come down hard on particulate
emissions, but the latest generation of engines from the likes of PSA and VW
are already compliant.
> Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?
Most European trains seem to be electric only these days though there are
still a few diseasel/electric or plain diesel ones around. In places like
N. America or Australia, the cost of putting up the supply probably makes it
impractical.
> Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
> It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.
It /is/ still screamingly funny in parts, though.
--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
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Date: 07 Apr 2005 12:00:58
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote
>
> Jon Meinecke wrote:
> > Air pollution again, may be a concern with diesels (particulates).
>
> The next round of Euro emissions standards come down hard on particulate
> emissions, but the latest generation of engines from the likes of PSA and
VW
> are already compliant.
That's good news. The VW Turbo diesel models in the US a
few years ago were reported to have high particulate level...
50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]
A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.
> > Diesel-electric hybrids are the norm in railroad engines, aren't they?
>
> Most European trains seem to be electric only
Most light rail/commuter trains are electric for US as well.
> > Read Douglas Adams book _Last Chance to See_.
> > It's not SciFi/comedy/satire.
>
> It /is/ still screamingly funny in parts, though.
Yes. I loaned my copy out a few years ago and never got it
back. Need to visit the second hand book store again. Was it
Bali where he asked the taxi driver to take him someplace away
from tourists only to be taken to the place where taxi drivers
take tourists who asked to be taken someplace away from
tourists. I also like the chapter on kiwis (my rec.backcountry
net.species).
Adams as Agrajag in episode four of the _Tertiary Phase_
is wonderful. Guess the series was in production for a
number of years. He is missed by many. RIP
Jon Meinecke
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Date: 08 Apr 2005 20:08:49
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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"Jon Meinecke" <jonmein@nospam.net > wrote in message
news:1112893211.6ac7a5f56168ee7d4ee4e46efd8e0c1e@teranews...
>
> 50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
> they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]
> A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.
Thats odd, TDI VW's for some reason have a cult following in the US
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Date: 08 Apr 2005 10:54:52
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Good news; oil prices up. Car-free cities a distinct possibility.
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Jon Meinecke wrote:
> 50+ mpg is attractive and better than many hybrids. Don't know how
> they compare for ppm/ppm [parts per million/pollution per mile... %^)]
Probably slightly better, but the only hybrids available in the UK are the
Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius. Both are ferociously expensive even
with the "loss-leader" pricing and not terribly practical for lugging bikes
around in. Equivalent sized diesel cars drink the same or less and cost 2/3
the price - or less in the case of Citroen.
> A friend's VW Beetle TDI has been somewhat expensive to maintain.
My motorcar - a Skoda Fabia - has the same engine and has so far required
naught but a routine service. 55-60 mpg with restraint and quick enough to
keep up with most people on the autobahn without it...
--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
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