Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

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Date: 21 Feb 2006 07:55:52
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.

But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about all
the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to be
called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)
apply to cranks....

What else is there to this 'bent business? Sheesh, it's getting more
expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!

Date: 06 Mar 2006 19:02:08
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> Before I showed up here on ARBR Mr. Sherman was a man of many words. I am
> afraid I have reduced him to a man of few words. However, whether many or
> few, he was always cryptic. I never knew for sure what the hell he was
> talking about half the time. He was saddled with a scientific and
> engineering education and as we all know those types are just barely
> literate. But he is letter perfect which is amazing as most of those types
> are not that either....

What is so hard about writing in a manner that people can understand?
It is deliberately mangling English while retaining meaning like our
friend g. daniels that takes talent.
--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
President - g. daniels Fan Club

"are there stones on distant mountain decents king the gored and
deceased? arms and wrists broken ?
or is this unreported?" - g. daniels

Date: 07 Mar 2006 09:04:06
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141700528.586609.53100@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> Before I showed up here on ARBR Mr. Sherman was a man of many words. I
>> am
>> afraid I have reduced him to a man of few words. However, whether many or
>> few, he was always cryptic. I never knew for sure what the hell he was
>> talking about half the time. He was saddled with a scientific and
>> engineering education and as we all know those types are just barely
>> literate. But he is letter perfect which is amazing as most of those
>> types
>> are not that either....
>
> What is so hard about writing in a manner that people can understand?
> It is deliberately mangling English while retaining meaning like our
> friend g. daniels that takes talent.

What you and I do is own of the hardest things in the world to do. We spend
most of our young years in school trying to learn to read and write. Most us
never learn to do it very well. In order to read and write well, you have to
be able to think well. That is what education is all about and society
devotes enormous resources to accomplish this seemingly simple goal.

You really have to go to a third world nation to realize what the lack of an
education means. However, I fear we Americans are failing badly these days
also. I think our parents and our grandparents, provided they got any
education at all, got a better education that anyone gets today.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 06 Mar 2006 18:16:48
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ignoring the other issues, was the epinion.com reviewer significantly
> > heavier than the BROL reviewer?
> >
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
>
>
> Sorry, not epinion after all, but
> <http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/2003-bikes/2003-recumbent-bike/hp-velotechnik/PRD_139360_4345crx.aspx#reviews>.
>
> Not sure what you're driving at, though.

Shocks need to be set for rider weight, or they will provide either to
much or too little damping.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

Date: 02 Mar 2006 22:19:11
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>
>
> Ignoring the other issues, was the epinion.com reviewer significantly
> heavier than the BROL reviewer?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

Sorry, not epinion after all, but
<http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/2003-bikes/2003-recumbent-bike/hp-velotechnik/PRD_139360_4345crx.aspx#reviews >.

Not sure what you're driving at, though.

Date: 03 Mar 2006 01:31:14
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141366751.550628.22170@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ignoring the other issues, was the epinion.com reviewer significantly
>> heavier than the BROL reviewer?
>>
>> --
>> Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
>
>
> Sorry, not epinion after all, but
> <http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/2003-bikes/2003-recumbent-bike/hp-velotechnik/PRD_139360_4345crx.aspx#reviews>.
>
> Not sure what you're driving at, though.

Before I showed up here on ARBR Mr. Sherman was a man of many words. I am
afraid I have reduced him to a man of few words. However, whether many or
few, he was always cryptic. I never knew for sure what the hell he was
talking about half the time. He was saddled with a scientific and
engineering education and as we all know those types are just barely
literate. But he is letter perfect which is amazing as most of those types
are not that either.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 02 Mar 2006 22:15:28
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> You don't do overtly dangerous or damaging things in a review, and
> hitting big holes at high speed is both, both for your own sake and also
> trying to push loan equipment past breaking point is impolite, however
> desirable the results may be for the reading public.

Well, no torture tests, but surely something within the realm of
everyday riding is understandable.

> How deep? don't know, there was still puddle obscuring the depths after
> we'd both been through and removed a fair bit of water, but deep enough
> that you'd want to avoid it. My co-rider was in quite serious discomfort.

Just curious if it was a whole foot or what.

> I'd like it to rely far more on actual seat time so personal rather than
> reader opinion. As the last V-V buyer's guide pointed out, it's very
> easy to over-research and seat time is what really counts. You already
> seem to have set your heart on a Spirit without having ridden one: /I/
> think it's a lovely bike, but don't assume it'll work for you until it
> has proven so with direct personal experience. Some people just aren't
> happy on it.

Love at first sight, man.

I have a pretty good idea of what I want. I wanted a friendly second
bike for guests, but one which I myself would not mind riding, either.
So something more upright than recumbent, but still rather reclined --
user-friendly towards newbies and all that.

Looking around, I see how highly rated the Spirit is. From first-hand
experience, I also have confidence in the HP Velo brand (interestingly,
they discontinued the Wavey). All that remains is an actual test ride
to find something which will disappoint me. The only thing I can
imagine at this point is that it is really slow, given the very small
wheels.

> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 03 Mar 2006 10:01:39
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:

> Well, no torture tests, but surely something within the realm of
> everyday riding is understandable.

I've hit potholes that big every 3-4 years, I'd guess. That isn't
"everyday riding", though it can happen on any day.

> Love at first sight, man.
>
> I have a pretty good idea of what I want. I wanted a friendly second
> bike for guests, but one which I myself would not mind riding, either.
> So something more upright than recumbent, but still rather reclined --
> user-friendly towards newbies and all that.

But if the seat doesn't really work for you then it's so much scrap
metal. You can only find that out by sitting on it. The Challenge
Fujin or Taifun is my idea of My Perfect Recumbent/on paper/, but my one
experience to date of Challenges seats (which plenty of folk seem to be
happy with) suggests that buying one without trying it first would be a
*very* bad idea.

> Looking around, I see how highly rated the Spirit is. From first-hand
> experience, I also have confidence in the HP Velo brand (interestingly,
> they discontinued the Wavey).

The Wavey was an excellent value machine and on paper it worked well,
and on review it worked well. I found the seat comfortable but I
couldn't set it up so my knees didn't keep hitting the bars. Everyone's
physiology is different, so everyone needs to test for themselves or you
won't find this sort of thing. A pal trying HPVels with me a couple of
weeks ago really liked the Spirit, but he couldn't do the grasshopper
because his bandy legs hit the (overseat) bars. Not a problem for many
happy owners, a complete non-starter for him.

> All that remains is an actual test ride
> to find something which will disappoint me. The only thing I can
> imagine at this point is that it is really slow, given the very small
> wheels.

Why should small wheels make it slow? It's /relatively/ slow because of
the poor aerodynamics combined with relatively high weight, but wheel
size only really affects performance much if you're negotiating very
rough stuff.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 28 Feb 2006 19:17:15
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Darrell Criswell wrote:
> > http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm
> >
> > check out the above article
>
>
> Thanks for the link, man! But I must say: I've read some
> bentrideronline.com reviews and they have very little in the way of
> anything negative to say about anything! Or so it seems that way. I'm
> especially skeptical of a review which ends "stay tuned for a more
> scientific evaluation in a couple of months. More info at
> www.rotorusa.com." Now doesn't that just sound incestuous?
>
> At the same time, BROL is a resource I'd recommend to anyone. But I
> have found a review on epinon.com -- or some such site -- which was
> diametrically opposite what BROL described of the HP Velotechnik Spirit
> CLWB's front suspension. BROL said it never bottomed out, whereas the
> anonymous review had it as being inadequate (though both reviews
> recommended the Spirit as a good 'bent)....

Ignoring the other issues, was the epinion.com reviewer significantly
heavier than the BROL reviewer?

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

Date: 28 Feb 2006 19:13:35
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Beach Runner wrote:
> ...
> Who makes riding shoes that are wide in the toes and narrow in the heels?

"Mega" versions of SiDi Dominator (ATB) and Genius (road) shoes have
wide toe boxes relative to their heel width. See
<http://www.sidiusa.com/ > or <http://www.sidisport.com/eng/index.asp>.

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

Date: 28 Feb 2006 11:23:15
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

How deep was the pothole, do you think?

An honest and conscientious review will test out stuff like potholes,
etc. It's unfortunate that many of these "reader reviews" are not
"professional" in that sense, and the 'bent niche relies mainly on
reader opinion. But situations like "real" potholes, etc., are a bit
unfair to "pin" onto a 'bent and its suspension system too much...after
all, nothing will work against everything.

Peter Clinch wrote:
> NYC XYZ wrote:
>
> > At the same time, BROL is a resource I'd recommend to anyone. But I
> > have found a review on epinon.com -- or some such site -- which was
> > diametrically opposite what BROL described of the HP Velotechnik Spirit
> > CLWB's front suspension. BROL said it never bottomed out, whereas the
> > anonymous review had it as being inadequate (though both reviews
> > recommended the Spirit as a good 'bent).
>
> That'll depend how you use it and also what weight you are. It took me
> 3 years before I bottomed out the front sus on my Streetmachine, so had
> I reviewed it in those 3 years I could honestly have said I'd never
> bottomed it out (it was a rather deep pothole, obscured by a puddle,
> which I hit at upwards of 30 mph. A friend hit it too on a DF, and her
> wrists were in pain, I just thought, "gosh, that's what it sounds like
> when you bottom out the suspension on a Streetmachine").
>
> Problem with reviews is they're subject to very small sample bases with
> highly varying personal circumstances and preferences of the folk doing
> the reviewing, so they're actually much less use than a lot of people
> assume, especially where the reviewer hasn't ridden much else. Not
> useless, just less use than a lot of people assume.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 01 Mar 2006 09:39:43
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:
> How deep was the pothole, do you think?
>
> An honest and conscientious review will test out stuff like potholes,
> etc.

You don't do overtly dangerous or damaging things in a review, and
hitting big holes at high speed is both, both for your own sake and also
trying to push loan equipment past breaking point is impolite, however
desirable the results may be for the reading public.

How deep? don't know, there was still puddle obscuring the depths after
we'd both been through and removed a fair bit of water, but deep enough
that you'd want to avoid it. My co-rider was in quite serious discomfort.

> It's unfortunate that many of these "reader reviews" are not
> "professional" in that sense, and the 'bent niche relies mainly on
> reader opinion.

I'd like it to rely far more on actual seat time so personal rather than
reader opinion. As the last V-V buyer's guide pointed out, it's very
easy to over-research and seat time is what really counts. You already
seem to have set your heart on a Spirit without having ridden one: /I/
think it's a lovely bike, but don't assume it'll work for you until it
has proven so with direct personal experience. Some people just aren't
happy on it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 28 Feb 2006 11:03:06
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>
> Bob Bryant is the editor and the chief writer. He will have others
> contribute articles, but his own articles are always the best. Mr. Bryant
> and I started in recumbents at about the same time many years ago. I almost
> always agree with him when he is telling us the pros and cons of the various
> reucmbents. He also has some sense of price which he takes into account in
> his evaluations. You can learn everything you will ever have to know about
> recumbents by reading RCN.

In 092, he didn't have much to say about hydraulic brakes, given his
admitted unfamiliarity with them. That was quite a bummer.

> I have every issue of RCN going back to the beginning. Believe me, the world
> of recumbency has definitely evolved quite a bit since those early days.

Ah, what does Issue 075 have to say about the HP Velotechnik Spirit?
In the most recent one, 092, the sumy Bob Bryant gave was that it's
possibly the best CLWB around!

> It doesn't hurt to read any of the above. Descriptive information can be
> very good to have also.

"The Scene" is just all very interesting. It's like finally finding
someone who speaks my language! All the other bike mags I see are
about racing, etc. Too commercialized. I like the church-newsletter
ethos of these periodicals, as well as what seems to be their
underlying humanistic philosophy. Mainstream bike mags convey too much
"attitude" to me.

I'll also subscribe to the HPV newsletter soon. This is a very
interesting world!

> Sigh! Oh, to be young again!

Not at all -- age is merely mind over matter; if you don't mind, it
doesn't matter (k Twain). Bush pere parachuted for his 80th
birthday.

> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 01 Mar 2006 01:38:52
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141153386.918493.147170@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> "The Scene" is just all very interesting. It's like finally finding
> someone who speaks my language! All the other bike mags I see are
> about racing, etc. Too commercialized. I like the church-newsletter
> ethos of these periodicals, as well as what seems to be their
> underlying humanistic philosophy. Mainstream bike mags convey too much
> "attitude" to me.

Yes, I liked the underground attitude when I was young too. There are still
some things I like about it, but you have to approach it with infinite
caution. That world is just chock full of nuts and screwballs, but every now
and then they do say something which reeks of the truth.

> I'll also subscribe to the HPV newsletter soon. This is a very
> interesting world!
>
>> Sigh! Oh, to be young again!
>
> Not at all -- age is merely mind over matter; if you don't mind, it
> doesn't matter (k Twain). Bush pere parachuted for his 80th
> birthday.

Nope, age will have its way with everyone. When you are 70, you are not 20.
The one great advantage of years is that I have been your age but you have
not yet been my age. You may or may not get to my age. Nothing is for
certain in this life. But I wish you the best in any event. Everyone should
know what it is like to get old. Otherwise, you do not have a complete
picture of life.

k Twain was a very cranky sour man in the end. Nothing at all like when
he was young and leading the sporting life on the Mississippi. Old men who
think they are still young are nothing but fools. Bush pere now breathes
through his mouth. He should most definitely not be jumping our of
airplanes.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 27 Feb 2006 22:05:41
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Just did the other day, after clearing PayPal security. But just about
everything is written by Bill Bryant!

So far, I've also subscribed to Recumbent and Tandem Rider, Adventure
Cyclist, and Velovision.

What an exciting year!

Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>
> Subscribe to RCN and be done with it. BROL is not bad, but it does not
> really evaluate anything or make meaningful comparisons. For that you have
> to go to RCN.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 28 Feb 2006 01:36:54
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141106741.653734.266100@t39g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>
> Just did the other day, after clearing PayPal security. But just about
> everything is written by Bill Bryant!

Bob Bryant is the editor and the chief writer. He will have others
contribute articles, but his own articles are always the best. Mr. Bryant
and I started in recumbents at about the same time many years ago. I almost
always agree with him when he is telling us the pros and cons of the various
reucmbents. He also has some sense of price which he takes into account in
his evaluations. You can learn everything you will ever have to know about
recumbents by reading RCN.

I have every issue of RCN going back to the beginning. Believe me, the world
of recumbency has definitely evolved quite a bit since those early days.

> So far, I've also subscribed to Recumbent and Tandem Rider, Adventure
> Cyclist, and Velovision.

It doesn't hurt to read any of the above. Descriptive information can be
very good to have also.

> What an exciting year!

Sigh! Oh, to be young again!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>>
>> Subscribe to RCN and be done with it. BROL is not bad, but it does not
>> really evaluate anything or make meaningful comparisons. For that you
>> have
>> to go to RCN.

Date: 27 Feb 2006 17:58:52
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Darrell Criswell wrote:
> http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm
>
> check out the above article

Thanks for the link, man! But I must say: I've read some
bentrideronline.com reviews and they have very little in the way of
anything negative to say about anything! Or so it seems that way. I'm
especially skeptical of a review which ends "stay tuned for a more
scientific evaluation in a couple of months. More info at
www.rotorusa.com." Now doesn't that just sound incestuous?

At the same time, BROL is a resource I'd recommend to anyone. But I
have found a review on epinon.com -- or some such site -- which was
diametrically opposite what BROL described of the HP Velotechnik Spirit
CLWB's front suspension. BROL said it never bottomed out, whereas the
anonymous review had it as being inadequate (though both reviews
recommended the Spirit as a good 'bent).

Anyway, I'm keeping an eye out on Rotor cranks, as well as Rohloff
hubs. When HP Velo comes out with a nice titanium 'bent, that's when
I'll really splurge!

Date: 28 Feb 2006 09:15:33
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:

> At the same time, BROL is a resource I'd recommend to anyone. But I
> have found a review on epinon.com -- or some such site -- which was
> diametrically opposite what BROL described of the HP Velotechnik Spirit
> CLWB's front suspension. BROL said it never bottomed out, whereas the
> anonymous review had it as being inadequate (though both reviews
> recommended the Spirit as a good 'bent).

That'll depend how you use it and also what weight you are. It took me
3 years before I bottomed out the front sus on my Streetmachine, so had
I reviewed it in those 3 years I could honestly have said I'd never
bottomed it out (it was a rather deep pothole, obscured by a puddle,
which I hit at upwards of 30 mph. A friend hit it too on a DF, and her
wrists were in pain, I just thought, "gosh, that's what it sounds like
when you bottom out the suspension on a Streetmachine").

Problem with reviews is they're subject to very small sample bases with
highly varying personal circumstances and preferences of the folk doing
the reviewing, so they're actually much less use than a lot of people
assume, especially where the reviewer hasn't ridden much else. Not
useless, just less use than a lot of people assume.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 27 Feb 2006 21:43:42
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1141091932.038606.112780@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>
> Darrell Criswell wrote:
>> http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm
>>
>> check out the above article
>
>
> Thanks for the link, man! But I must say: I've read some
> bentrideronline.com reviews and they have very little in the way of
> anything negative to say about anything! Or so it seems that way. I'm
> especially skeptical of a review which ends "stay tuned for a more
> scientific evaluation in a couple of months. More info at
> www.rotorusa.com." Now doesn't that just sound incestuous?
>
> At the same time, BROL is a resource I'd recommend to anyone. But I
> have found a review on epinon.com -- or some such site -- which was
> diametrically opposite what BROL described of the HP Velotechnik Spirit
> CLWB's front suspension. BROL said it never bottomed out, whereas the
> anonymous review had it as being inadequate (though both reviews
> recommended the Spirit as a good 'bent).
>
> Anyway, I'm keeping an eye out on Rotor cranks, as well as Rohloff
> hubs. When HP Velo comes out with a nice titanium 'bent, that's when
> I'll really splurge!

Subscribe to RCN and be done with it. BROL is not bad, but it does not
really evaluate anything or make meaningful comparisons. For that you have
to go to RCN.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 24 Feb 2006 03:53:16
From: Darrell Criswell
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm

check out the above article

Date: 25 Feb 2006 11:39:48
From: bob
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Darrell Criswell wrote:
> http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm
>
> check out the above article
Or, this Rotor racing website: http://www.rotorcranksracingteam.com/

bentbob@tamu.edu
Volae Team/Rotors

Date: 27 Feb 2006 19:47:35
From: Beach Runner
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

bob wrote:

> Darrell Criswell wrote:
>
>> http://www.bentrideronline.com/2004Feb/rotor_cranks.htm
>>
>> check out the above article
>
> Or, this Rotor racing website: http://www.rotorcranksracingteam.com/
>
> bentbob@tamu.edu
> Volae Team/Rotors

I never went with clips as I never found riding shoes that came anywhere
near close to fitting my feet.

Who makes riding shoes that are wide in the toes and narrow in the heels?

In running shoes Sacouney Wides fit me great.

I use a stiff orthodic when I ride.

Bob

Date: 28 Feb 2006 09:07:06
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Beach Runner wrote:

> Who makes riding shoes that are wide in the toes and narrow in the heels?
>
> In running shoes Sacouney Wides fit me great.

I like Saucony runners too... I used to have a pair of Specialized
Rockhopper shoes, recently retired, and I now have some Diadora ones. I
find Shimano shoes /much/ too narrow. I've tried on some Cannondale
ones which fit me okay too.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 23 Feb 2006 16:14:08
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"oldslowbenter" wrote:
> If you redesigned the frame and seat to alleviate hand, wrist, arm and neck
> pain and improve forward vision I bet you'd end up with something looking
> like a <gasp> recumbent.

One might even end up riding something freakish like a lowracer with an
ISO 305-mm/406-mm wheelset. ;)

--
Tom Sherman

Date: 23 Feb 2006 21:26:37
From: gotbent
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1140740048.649171.220790@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
> "oldslowbenter" wrote:
>> If you redesigned the frame and seat to alleviate hand, wrist, arm and
>> neck
>> pain and improve forward vision I bet you'd end up with something looking
>> like a <gasp> recumbent.
>
> One might even end up riding something freakish like a lowracer with an
> ISO 305-mm/406-mm wheelset. ;)

One might surmise that that possibility exists. I hope it doesn't clash with
my red bike.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman
>

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Date: 23 Feb 2006 08:57:26
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Hull 697 wrote:
>
>
> If I had not had the oppurtunity to test ride Rotors they would have
> been after trying BeBops. Lots of testimonials about BeBops and knees
> out there on the net. Rotors are pricey and the performance benefit is
> still up for considerable debate, as this thread shows. With stock
> cranks, after 5 miles my left knee felt the dead spot, the right did
> not. Performance was not my issue. As far as knee/ankle issues, here is
> an interesting read:
> http://www.angletechcycles.com/notsausage/pedals_shoes.htm

Sigh...why don't they just put the damned things on in the first place!

The way things are heading, I should just buy the framekit instead of
the bike!

Thanks, BTW, for the reference. I'll probably just get Power Grips for
now. How are they, really? Better than nothing, or just short of
best-of-class?

> If the SMGTe does not cause them to look, try begging.

Being noticed isn't the problem, it's everything else -- and that's all
before my own issues, like getting bored, etc.!

> The women I find attractive are less than impressed with folks who care
> so little about themselves they ride without one.

Oh, no -- an ideologue! She'd probably make me wear a condom, too. =D

> While on the subject of transport as a means of attracting females,
> well, recently ran into a guy I knew back in the dark ages. Over lunch,
> he commented that he still couldn't get the time of day with women, even
> though he now owned a high end Corvette. As a general observation, the
> difference was that before he was a pencil necked geek. Now, he is a
> pencil necked geek with a Corvette.

While not a pencil-necked geek with a Corvette, I am a geek trapped
inside an athlete's body, so I know all about this problem: ultimately,
you've got to have "game." This is why I was wondering if there are
(m)any babes on 'bents -- figured that would be a short-cut of sorts
through the "game"...I'm too much of a snob and think "gaming" is
beneath me...the problem is that I only game or use game with girls I
don't "care" about, really...the ones I really want I want to be
"honest" with....

So it's not about using transport as a means of attracting females, but
what females are there that share this vision of this particular kind
of transport -- surely there will be other common values between us, if
we both admire so peculiar a thing as a 'bent! The looks you can tell
in no time -- yes, I can have sex with that for the rest of my life
happily, yes -- but what about values? Is she some whiny princess --
oh, too cold; oh, too tiring; oh, too danerous; oh, too geeky -- or is
she some real lady -- self-reliant, physical and sensual, strong, fast,
determined and patient, lasting and resourceful? I believe one can
really tell a lot about a person's character and outlook by how they
ride (and with most other physical activities).

> --
> Hull 697

Date: 23 Feb 2006 08:55:47
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Date: 22 Feb 2006 21:28:06
From: chalo colina
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Joshua Putnam wrote:
>
> 1. Not quite as fancy, but by old black Race Vogs look at home with a
> good wool suit and power tie. Black dress shoes with recessed SPDs,
> don't know if they came as large as a 15 though.

That would work, except that they're not made any more. And Fluevogs
top out at size 13, because evidently nobody wears bigger shoes than
that.

Heck, I wear overalls every day, I don't need anything remotely fancy.
But when I try to wear dorky slave-made athletic shoes pieced together
out of umpteen little bits of stuff, I feel like an oaf. I can't help
it; it just looks about as cool as acne or basketball jerseys to me.

> 2. It's not that hard to convert any shoe with a reasonably-thick
> sole to clipless. I have clipless boots that work very well for
> winter riding, and they don't look at all like bike-geek shoes.
> (They started as recessed-Look-cleated boots for mountain biking in
> the days before SPDs, now they have SPD cleats instead.)

I've considered doing this to shoes or boots I like. But then I've
considered making my own platform pedals from scratch, too. If I ever
got around to it, either of these things might be pretty satisfying.
In the meantime there are a number of BMX pedals that work well enough,
don't cost much, and don't break off.

Chalo Colina

Date: 23 Feb 2006 07:53:54
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

chalo colina wrote:
> Joshua Putnam wrote:
>
>>1. Not quite as fancy, but by old black Race Vogs look at home with a
>>good wool suit and power tie. Black dress shoes with recessed SPDs,
>>don't know if they came as large as a 15 though.
>
>
> That would work, except that they're not made any more. And Fluevogs
> top out at size 13, because evidently nobody wears bigger shoes than
> that.
>
> Heck, I wear overalls every day, I don't need anything remotely fancy.
> But when I try to wear dorky slave-made athletic shoes pieced together
> out of umpteen little bits of stuff, I feel like an oaf. I can't help
> it; it just looks about as cool as acne or basketball jerseys to me.
>
>
>>2. It's not that hard to convert any shoe with a reasonably-thick
>>sole to clipless. I have clipless boots that work very well for
>>winter riding, and they don't look at all like bike-geek shoes.
>>(They started as recessed-Look-cleated boots for mountain biking in
>>the days before SPDs, now they have SPD cleats instead.)
>
>
> I've considered doing this to shoes or boots I like. But then I've
> considered making my own platform pedals from scratch, too. If I ever
> got around to it, either of these things might be pretty satisfying.
> In the meantime there are a number of BMX pedals that work well enough,
> don't cost much, and don't break off.
>
> Chalo Colina
>

I feel your pain (also being a size 15+). I noticed recently that Sidi
makes a police patrol shoe. Sidi also makes shoes to size 52 (actually a
little too big for me) in some models. Don't know if they make the cop
shoe in big sizes though.

Clipless are great, but if I had to wear shoes that didn't work I'd just
give them up, they're not that important.

Date: 22 Feb 2006 18:00:30
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

chalo colina wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> > Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
> > > themselves at you.
> >
> > If you're relying on your choice of transportation to help you get
> > girls you'll have a lot more luck riding *in* a Benz than *on* a 'bent.
> > Just FYI. ;-)
>
> Actually, a 'bent should be about the same in that regard as a
> rusted-out 300TD wagon with mismatched quarter panels, bike rack, and a
> "powered by waste vegetable oil" sticker.

A lot of women find my Earth Cycles Sunset Lowracer [1] cute.

[1] Not mine, but similar:
<http://individual.utoronto.ca/nogami/bikes/roster/sunset/sunsidesm.JPG >.

--
Tom Sherman

Date: 22 Feb 2006 15:55:53
From: chalo colina
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Chalo wrote:
>
> > Clipless shoes in large sizes are scarce and expensive. Clipless shoes
> > in _any_ size are uncomfortable for use off the bike.
>
> Oh. Nobody seems to have told my feet... I'm quite comfortable
> walking about in SD-60s, my old Specialized Rockhoppers or the
> Diadora shoes I recently replaced them with.

Yeah. When I was 21, I weighed about 65% of what I do now, and I was
content walking and standing in Specialized SPD shoes-- and in Converse
Chuck Taylors, and Teva sandals, and rock-hard Red Wing logger boots.
I didn't have to distinguish between comfortable and uncomfortable
shoes for most activities. But now I do have to make that distinction,
and clipless shoes don't cut it (at least not the three kinds of
"walkable" shoes I've owned).

Chalo

Date: 23 Feb 2006 09:19:03
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

chalo colina wrote:

> Yeah. When I was 21, I weighed about 65% of what I do now, and I was
> content walking and standing in Specialized SPD shoes-- and in Converse
> Chuck Taylors, and Teva sandals, and rock-hard Red Wing logger boots.
> I didn't have to distinguish between comfortable and uncomfortable
> shoes for most activities. But now I do have to make that distinction,
> and clipless shoes don't cut it

If you're overweight I wouldn't say that's a fair reason to suggest
cycling shoes as being universally uncomfortable, period, especially as
the OP may well not be overweight.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 22 Feb 2006 13:57:33
From: chalo colina
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Bob wrote:
> Alex Rodriguez wrote:
> >
> > Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
> > themselves at you.
>
> If you're relying on your choice of transportation to help you get
> girls you'll have a lot more luck riding *in* a Benz than *on* a 'bent.
> Just FYI. ;-)

Actually, a 'bent should be about the same in that regard as a
rusted-out 300TD wagon with mismatched quarter panels, bike rack, and a
"powered by waste vegetable oil" sticker.

Chalo

Date: 22 Feb 2006 13:30:52
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Peter Clinch wrote:
>
> Tim McNaa wrote:
> >
> > Except for the really stupid looking shoes. Most of them look like
> > shoes from Barnum & Bailey's Bowlarama.
>
> For some values of "most"... It's quite easy to find very normal
> shoe-like cycling shoes as long as you're not after really high
> performance racing kit. My favourite cycling footware are Shimano SD-60
> SPuD sandals, they look just like a pair of Tevas or similar.

I adopted clipless pedals (PD-M737) for a span of years, then left them
behind for a few years. I tried to take them up again (Time ATAC), but
couldn't make peace with them. Both times, the shoes were the part
that broke the deal for me.

Clipless shoes in large sizes are scarce and expensive. Clipless shoes
in _any_ size are uncomfortable for use off the bike. And all of them
look like crap, whether they look like non-bike shoes or not. Would it
kill a manufacturer to make _one_ model of cilpless shoe that looked
like... y'know, a shoe some reasonably discriminating person would wear
anyway?

E.g. one of these:
http://web.ivenue.com/chetsshoestore/images/4070.jpg

I'd be all over that-- if it came in size 15, anyway.

Chalo Colina

Date: 22 Feb 2006 20:36:59
From: Joshua Putnam
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

In article <1140643852.473284.142020@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
chalo.colina@gmail.com says...

> Clipless shoes in large sizes are scarce and expensive. Clipless shoes
> in _any_ size are uncomfortable for use off the bike. And all of them
> look like crap, whether they look like non-bike shoes or not. Would it
> kill a manufacturer to make _one_ model of cilpless shoe that looked
> like... y'know, a shoe some reasonably discriminating person would wear
> anyway?
>
> E.g. one of these:
> http://web.ivenue.com/chetsshoestore/images/4070.jpg
>
> I'd be all over that-- if it came in size 15, anyway.

Two thoughts:

1. Not quite as fancy, but by old black Race Vogs look at home with a
good wool suit and power tie. Black dress shoes with recessed SPDs,
don't know if they came as large as a 15 though.

2. It's not that hard to convert any shoe with a reasonably-thick
sole to clipless. I have clipless boots that work very well for
winter riding, and they don't look at all like bike-geek shoes.
(They started as recessed-Look-cleated boots for mountain biking in
the days before SPDs, now they have SPD cleats instead.)

--
josh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/ >
Updated Infrared Photography Books List:
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/irbooks.html >

Date: 22 Feb 2006 22:10:10
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Chalo wrote:

> Clipless shoes in large sizes are scarce and expensive. Clipless shoes
> in _any_ size are uncomfortable for use off the bike.

Oh. Nobody seems to have told my feet... I'm quite comfortable
walking about in SD-60s, my old Specialized Rockhoppers or the
Diadora shoes I recently replaced them with. On a week's summer
tour in 2004 the SD-60s were the only footwear I took with me, and
no regrets.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 22 Feb 2006 07:49:53
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Not really: there's a weight penalty, there's a very significantly
> greater cost penalty, and there is some degree of debate as to how
> effective they really are. Clipless pedals are proven in action by
> thousands and thousands of cyclists doing millions of miles, just as
> clips and straps before them were proven, Rotors aren't.

Ah, well I didn't know about the cost factor being "very
significant"...but Velovision, in that issue with the Hase Ti-Pino
reader review, tested Rotor cranks and found them to be a very modest
~5% increase in speed, and noticeably more comfortable, though nothing
life-changing or revolutionary.

> <SNIP>

Date: 22 Feb 2006 22:16:30
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:

> Ah, well I didn't know about the cost factor being "very
> significant"...but Velovision, in that issue with the Hase Ti-Pino
> reader review, tested Rotor cranks and found them to be a very modest
> ~5% increase in speed, and noticeably more comfortable, though nothing
> life-changing or revolutionary.

And other people have tested them and found them not to really do
anything much. The jury is still very much out. I'm not saying
they don't/can't help, just that the writing isn't on the wall in
unremovable neon paint with letters 5 miles high like it is with
clipless pedals, and the Rotors do cost a lot I'd sooner spend on
something else.

When professional racers, who make more money by going faster, and
record attempt machines start to use Rotors in significant numbers
then I'll /really/ take notice. At the moment they don't, and they
do use cycling shoes and clipless pedals.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 23 Feb 2006 18:49:47
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:16:30 +0000, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:

>NYC XYZ wrote:
>
>> Ah, well I didn't know about the cost factor being "very
>> significant"...but Velovision, in that issue with the Hase Ti-Pino
>> reader review, tested Rotor cranks and found them to be a very modest
>> ~5% increase in speed, and noticeably more comfortable, though nothing
>> life-changing or revolutionary.
>
>And other people have tested them and found them not to really do
>anything much. The jury is still very much out. I'm not saying
>they don't/can't help, just that the writing isn't on the wall in
>unremovable neon paint with letters 5 miles high like it is with
>clipless pedals, and the Rotors do cost a lot I'd sooner spend on
>something else.

And that sign has fine print at the base (merely 100 foot letters) to
the effect of "Your Mileage May Vary, Results Are Not Guaranteed For
All Users." (Rumor has it that there is another note farther over, to
the effect of "We Apologise For The Inconvenience.")

>When professional racers, who make more money by going faster, and
>record attempt machines start to use Rotors in significant numbers
>then I'll /really/ take notice. At the moment they don't, and they
>do use cycling shoes and clipless pedals.

And although the Rotor Cranks website makes much of the length of the
list of riders whom they cite as loyal users, they ignore the rather
much larger list that would have to be posted if the non-users were
accounted for. The mere fact that Rotor admits that the majority of
the effect achieved by the Rotor Cranks can be obtained by the use of
an elliptical sprocket (which they will, in fact, sell to you
themselves) is telling, particularly in the face of its failure to win
widespread adoption in performance circles.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Date: 22 Feb 2006 07:46:12
From: NYC XYZ
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Hull 697 wrote:
>
>
> Rotor Cranks are nifty if you have knee problems, certain knee
> problems. I test rode them and the regular cranks and really liked
> Rotors. Throw in BeBop pedals and my left knee just does not bother me
> like it used to. Do they add power? Damned if I know. Couldn't care
> less if they _*cost*_ me power as another poster maintains. Compared
> to the cost of knee surgery they are cheap. Like a lot of things in
> BentWorld, it's a personal thing.

I'd love to try one out...sounds interesting, and seems to deal with
the knee/ankle issues that clips/clipless do.

> Girl/Woman? Got one. Took her along when I started bent shopping.
> Had to buy her one too. Expensive things, women. For further reading
> on women and 'bents see http://bacchettabikes.com/forum2/tm.asp?m=7505
> which hopefully will take you to a thread called "Corsa - Chick
> Magnet?"

Hmm...wonder how this HP Velotechnik SMGTe will do. Would a helmet add
or detract from making an impression?

http://tulsa.craigslist.org/m4w/136014026.html

> Another post higher in this thread gave some sage advise about ride
> your bike until things start wearing out, then upgrade based on
> knowledge and experience.

Yes, certainly. Unless I experience enough physical discomfort of some
sort or other, if these ain't "necessary" then they'll remain on the
Upgrade List for X-Mas...2010!!

> Good advice. Sages are synonymous with Wise
> Men.

Thought they were only identical to centrocercus urophasianus.

> --
> Hull 697

Date: 23 Feb 2006 16:38:15
From: Hull 697
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ Wrote:
>
> I'd love to try one out...sounds interesting, and seems to deal wit
> the knee/ankle issues that clips/clipless do
>

If I had not had the oppurtunity to test ride Rotors they would hav
been after trying BeBops. Lots of testimonials about BeBops and knee
out there on the net. Rotors are pricey and the performance benefit i
still up for considerable debate, as this thread shows. With stoc
cranks, after 5 miles my left knee felt the dead spot, the right di
not. Performance was not my issue. As far as knee/ankle issues, here i
an interesting read
http://www.angletechcycles.com/notsausage/pedals_shoes.htm

NYC XYZ Wrote:
> Hmm...wonder how this HP Velotechnik SMGTe will do. Would a helmet ad
> or detract from making an impression
> If the SMGTe does not cause them to look, try begging. Without a helmet
The women I find attractive are less than impressed with folks who car
so little about themselves they ride without one

While on the subject of transport as a means of attracting females
well, recently ran into a guy I knew back in the dark ages. Over lunch
he commented that he still couldn't get the time of day with women, eve
though he now owned a high end Corvette. As a general observation, th
difference was that before he was a pencil necked geek. Now, he is
pencil necked geek with a Corvette

--
Hull 697

Date: 22 Feb 2006 07:37:24
From: Tom Keats
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

In article <1140591251.852746.171030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
"Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com > writes:
> Alex Rodriguez wrote:
>>
>> Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
>> themselves at you.
>
> If you're relying on your choice of transportation to help you get
> girls you'll have a lot more luck riding *in* a Benz than *on* a 'bent.
> Just FYI. ;-)

A lot of that depends on your local cycling culture. I get plenty
of opportunities for socializing with women riders, especially on
the more cyclist-frequented streets here. And the women are often
the conversation initiators.

It helps that they can usually catch up to me.

Women cyclists are lovely; the world is graced by their presence.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Date: 24 Feb 2006 02:35:51
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"Tom Keats" <tkeats2005@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:kf0itd.hl11.ln@vcn.bc.ca...
> In article <1140591251.852746.171030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Bob" <hunrobe@aol.com> writes:
>> Alex Rodriguez wrote:
>>>
>>> Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
>>> themselves at you.
>>
>> If you're relying on your choice of transportation to help you get
>> girls you'll have a lot more luck riding *in* a Benz than *on* a 'bent.
>> Just FYI. ;-)
>
> A lot of that depends on your local cycling culture. I get plenty
> of opportunities for socializing with women riders, especially on
> the more cyclist-frequented streets here. And the women are often
> the conversation initiators.
>
> It helps that they can usually catch up to me.
>
> Women cyclists are lovely; the world is graced by their presence.

Women are at their very best in church with veils over their heads, lighting
candles at the altar and praying for the souls of slobs like you and me. At
that point they become as angels and I am destroyed.

However, the question needs to be asked is why are men such monsters. We are
not only sinful, but we are also as ugly as sin. What the hell women ever
see in men is one of the supreme mysteries of the universe. Hells Bells, if
I were a woman I would devote my life to putting men in their place - which
is in Hell of course.

I propose that men are devils and women are angels. Once you have got this
distinction straight in your freaking head, you are well on the way to some
sanity. Men do have a few virtues which women do not have, but men have so
many vices that women don't have that there is just no reconciling it. Any
man who finds a women who will accept him ought to get down on his hands and
knees and thank God. We know how worthless we are and we should be thankful
that women don't know this about us.

Well, I could go on and on about men and how we relate to women. Only
celibates like myself and Catholic priests know anything at all about women.
The rest of you sinful slobs should come to church ever now and then and get
the word. I and the Catholic priests would tell you all you will ever have
to know about women.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Date: 22 Feb 2006 14:43:01
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Tom Keats wrote:

> Women cyclists are lovely; the world is graced by their presence.

Isn't that the truth. They're all great, but I'm incredibly fortunate to
have ridden with a particularly attractive one for almost 30 years now.

Date: 22 Feb 2006 04:01:20
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> There are always inventors who believe that something significant was
> overlooked and that their invention will revolutionize bicycling.
> None of them have done so....

Pedal drive to the wheels?

Hand operated brakes?

Chain drive instead of direct drive?

Multiple gear ratios?

None of these are recent inventions, but things have progressed
significantly since Karl Drais von Sauerbronn's "Laufmaschine".

--
Tom Sherman

Date: 23 Feb 2006 11:07:47
From: oldslowbenter
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

If you redesigned the frame and seat to alleviate hand, wrist, arm and neck
pain and improve forward vision I bet you'd end up with something looking
like a <gasp > recumbent.

"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1140609680.180053.53180@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>> ...
>> There are always inventors who believe that something significant was
>> overlooked and that their invention will revolutionize bicycling.
>> None of them have done so....
>
> Pedal drive to the wheels?
>
> Hand operated brakes?
>
> Chain drive instead of direct drive?
>
> Multiple gear ratios?
>
> None of these are recent inventions, but things have progressed
> significantly since Karl Drais von Sauerbronn's "Laufmaschine".
>
> --
> Tom Sherman
>
>

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Date: 22 Feb 2006 03:53:32
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Tim McNaa wrote:
> Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu> writes:
> ...
> > Clipless pedals have real benefits to them with virtually no
> > drawbacks.
>
> Except for the really stupid looking shoes. Most of them look like
> shoes from Barnum & Bailey's Bowlarama.

On a high BB recumbent, plain, dark colored shoes are preferable, since
the rider's feet will be in his/her line of vision.

--
Tom Sherman

Date: 22 Feb 2006 09:45:33
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:

> But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about all
> the arguments being made for clips ... apply to cranks....

Not really: there's a weight penalty, there's a very significantly
greater cost penalty, and there is some degree of debate as to how
effective they really are. Clipless pedals are proven in action by
thousands and thousands of cyclists doing millions of miles, just as
clips and straps before them were proven, Rotors aren't.

> What else is there to this 'bent business?

Not particularly more than there is to the upright cycling business.
You're better off with clipless pedals on a DF if you're interested in
performance, you're better off with panniers rather than a backpack on a
DF if you're lugging loads any sort of distance, and so on, and so on.
Aside from the seat on a 'bent, pretty much anything you can get for
them is available for upright bikes too.

> Sheesh, it's getting more expensive by the day!

You've spent $$$s on a really nice bike as a basis so it makes sense to
go the full way. There's no point buying a Bentley and putting on
remoulds and vinyl seat covers, same applies here.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 22 Feb 2006 18:24:40
From: Hull 697
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ Wrote:
> But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks?
>
> What else is there to this 'bent business? Sheesh, it's getting mor
> expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!
Rotor Cranks are nifty if you have knee problems, certain kne
problems. I test rode them and the regular cranks and really like
Rotors. Throw in BeBop pedals and my left knee just does not bother m
like it used to. Do they add power? Damned if I know. Couldn't car
less if they _*cost*_ me power as another poster maintains. Compare
to the cost of knee surgery they are cheap. Like a lot of things i
BentWorld, it's a personal thing.

Girl/Woman? Got one. Took her along when I started bent shopping.
Had to buy her one too. Expensive things, women. For further readin
on women and 'bents see http://bacchettabikes.com/forum2/tm.asp?m=750
which hopefully will take you to a thread called "Corsa - Chic
Magnet?

Another post higher in this thread gave some sage advise about rid
your bike until things start wearing out, then upgrade based o
knowledge and experience. Good advice. Sages are synonymous with Wis
Men

--
Hull 697

Date: 21 Feb 2006 22:54:11
From: Bob
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Alex Rodriguez wrote:
>
> Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
> themselves at you.

If you're relying on your choice of transportation to help you get
girls you'll have a lot more luck riding *in* a Benz than *on* a 'bent.
Just FYI. ;-)

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Date: 21 Feb 2006 13:48:40
From: Phil, Squid-in-Training
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
> logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>
> But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks?

Rotorcranks are pretty cool and feel really weeeeird. The first thing one
notices is that the downstroke is normal, but when the crank reaches 5 o
clock or whatever position, the crank feels like it's been shortened by 20
or 30mm, shooting back up the back side of the crank stroke. It also messed
me up when I wanted to push down at what I thought was 12 o clock on the
ascending crank, but it actually was still at 11 o clock. There was no
perceived energy conversion difference, but I only gave it a test ride
around the block.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Date: 21 Feb 2006 17:28:16
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

On 21 Feb 2006 07:55:52 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>
>Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
>logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>
>But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks?

Because they're generally recognized as a waste of money. I will also
note that they appear to have once again reinvented the wheel by
introducing an elliptical sprocket. (Previous versions of elliptical
sprockets have been the subject of much debate, with both sides
claiming that the evidence supports their conclusions; one side saying
they reduce knee fatigue and increase power output, the other side
saying that they increase knee fatigue and do nothing important for
power output. I have a set of a different type of elliptical sprocket
on one of my bikes. I can't really tell that they do anything more
than pull on the chain when I mash on the cranks, the same as any
other sprocket.)

>...(and just how did it come to be
>called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)

Before the advent of clipless shoes and pedals, there were pedals with
toe clips. These were a cage or cage-and-strap contraption that isn't
seen much anymore. They had their own set of problems. When the
cleated shoes with clamping pedals came out, they were differentiated
from the others by the fact that the pedals had no toe clip, and
therefore they are "clipless".

>What else is there to this 'bent business?

Recumbent bikes have certain advantages, as you have been discovering.
They also tend to weigh more than a conventional bike, they don't
always work as well in every situation, and their relatively low
production numbers tend to keep their prices high. If your needs for
a bike are well met by a 'bent, and you've got the money to spend,
there's no reason not to go that route. Not everyone would be better
off on a 'bent than a regular bike, however, and a 'bent is an
expensive mistake if it doesn't work out.

>Sheesh, it's getting more
>expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!

If the manufacturers had that option, do you think they would hesitate
to do so? Beware of the increased maintenance costs if you find one
that offers such a feature.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Date: 21 Feb 2006 17:13:57
From:
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Someone writes:

> Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all... it all sounds
> logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.

> But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about
> all the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to
> be called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of
> usage?) apply to cranks...

Well that isn't what pedal attachment is about. It is there to keep
the foot properly placed on the pedal and to offer extra torque by
pulling up in sprints and sudden steep spots in climbing hills. They
do not generate more power, that being a function of aerobics,
cardiovascular capacity and stored energy available in the rider's
body.

The Rotor Cranks concept assumes that bicycling is limited by a
mechanical hurdle to get more muscular action to the rear wheel, when
in fact there is no extra muscular power available. The proponents of
"round pedaling" fit the Rotor Crank model and always have. Their
belief that engaging more muscles in propulsion will increase output
(speed) is misplaced. Performance is limited by the body, not the
mechanical interface with the rear wheel, as it has been for about a
century.

There are always inventors who believe that something significant was
overlooked and that their invention will revolutionize bicycling.
None of them have done so. Mechanical improvements come along but
they have not improved performance other than allow easier gear
changes, better braking, reduced bicycle weight and streamlining.
None of these has changed the continuous power (watts) a rider can
deliver to the rear wheel.

Don't forget Alenax! The wave of the future.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/alenax.html

Jobst Brandt

Date: 21 Feb 2006 12:12:47
From: Alex Rodriguez
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

In article <1140537352.629754.286450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says...

>Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
>logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>
>But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about all
>the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to be
>called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)
>apply to cranks.

Clipless pedals have real benefits to them with virtually no drawbacks.

>What else is there to this 'bent business? Sheesh, it's getting more
>expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!

Don't worry, once you are out on your 'bent, all the girls will throw
themselves at you.
--------------
Alex

Date: 21 Feb 2006 12:18:28
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu > writes:

> In article <1140537352.629754.286450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says...
>
>>Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
>>logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>>
>>But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about
>>all the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to
>>be called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of
>>usage?) apply to cranks.
>
> Clipless pedals have real benefits to them with virtually no
> drawbacks.

Except for the really stupid looking shoes. Most of them look like
shoes from Barnum & Bailey's Bowlarama.

Date: 22 Feb 2006 09:38:33
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

Tim McNaa wrote:

> Except for the really stupid looking shoes. Most of them look like
> shoes from Barnum & Bailey's Bowlarama.

For some values of "most"... It's quite easy to find very normal
shoe-like cycling shoes as long as you're not after really high
performance racing kit. My favourite cycling footware are Shimano SD-60
SPuD sandals, they look just like a pair of Tevas or similar.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Date: 21 Feb 2006 19:19:01
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:18:28 -0600, Tim McNaa
<timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote:

>Alex Rodriguez <adr5@columbia.edu> writes:
>
>> In article <1140537352.629754.286450@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> jack_foreigner@yahoo.com says...
>>
>>>Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
>>>logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>>>
>>>But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about
>>>all the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to
>>>be called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of
>>>usage?) apply to cranks.
>>
>> Clipless pedals have real benefits to them with virtually no
>> drawbacks.
>
>Except for the really stupid looking shoes. Most of them look like
>shoes from Barnum & Bailey's Bowlarama.

Don't look now, but over at Payless this past week, I saw
newly-arrived styles that looked like any number of cycling shoes.
Right down to the impossibly narrow heel and paper-thin sole. All
they needed was a little more sole stiffness, and cleat mounting
holes.

They were still just as fugly, too.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Date: 21 Feb 2006 17:08:43
From: Werehatrack
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

On 21 Feb 2006 07:55:52 -0800, "NYC XYZ" <jack_foreigner@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>
>Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
>logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>
>But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks?

Because they're generally recognized as a waste of money. The
limiting factor in performance is cardiovascular capacity, not the
number of muscle groups that can be brought to bear on the task.
Though the Rotor cranks might seem logical and might permit a slightly
higher speed for a rider whose muscular development is inadequate or
poorly adapted to cycling, they offer no benefit whatsoever to the
cyclist whose conditioning is optimized to the task, and they add
weight to the bike and inefficiency to the drivetrain. I will also
note that they appear to have once again reinvented the wheel by
introducing an elliptical sprocket to add another layer of gimmickry
to their device. (EPrevious versions of elliptical sprockets have
been the subject of much debate, with both sides claiming that the
evidence supports their conclusions; one side saying they reduce knee
fatigue and increase power output, the other side saying that they
increase knee fatigue and do nothing important for power output. I
have a set on one of my bikes. I can't really tell that they do
anything more than pull on the chain when I mash on the cranks, the
same as any other sprocket.)

>...(and just how did it come to be
>called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)

Before the advent of clipless shoes and pedals, there were pedals with
toe clips. These were a cage or cage-and-strap contraption that isn't
seen much anymore. They had their own set of problems. When the
cleated shoes with clamping pedals came out, they were differentiated
from the others by the fact that the pedals had no toe clip, and
therefore they are "clipless".

>What else is there to this 'bent business?

Recumbent bikes have certain advantages, as you have been discovering.
They also tend to weigh more than a conventional bike, they don't
always work as well in every situation, and their relatively low
production numbers tend to keep their prices high. If your needs for
a bike are well met by a 'bent, and you've got the money to spend,
there's no reason not to go that route. Not everyone would be better
off on a 'bent than a regular bike, however, and a 'bent is an
expensive mistake if it doesn't work out.

>Sheesh, it's getting more
>expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!

If the manufacturers had that option, do you think they would hesitate
to do so? Beware of the increased maintenance costs if you find one
that offers such a feature.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Date: 21 Feb 2006 08:19:43
From: Jeff Wills
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Okay, so clipless may be the thing to do, after all...it all sounds
> logical, even if I've never felt a need for it on a regular bike.
>
> But then why aren't y'all clamoring for Rotor cranks? Just about all
> the arguments being made for clips (and just how did it come to be
> called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)
> apply to cranks....
>
> What else is there to this 'bent business? Sheesh, it's getting more
> expensive by the day! For this price, they should throw in a girl!

(Un-cross-posted.)

Rotor Cranks have their proponents, and they're rather rabidly
evangelical. (Kind of like recumbent folk.) I'm comfortable enough with
my pedaling style to be uncomfortable with spending $1400+ on two sets
of cranks (one for me, one so the wife can keep up).

I think you should stop obsessing about how to put your bike together.
Buy it, ride it, do the adjustments to fit your body and riding style.
When things start to wear out, that's when you should start buying
upgraded parts.

BTW: riding a recumbent got me the girl. When we were dating, I put her
on my Lightning (which I had bought only a couple weeks earlier). She
immediately said "get me one!". So I did, and we rode them for a year
before getting ried. After 12=BD years of riage, we're still
happily riding together.

Jeff

Date: 21 Feb 2006 16:15:49
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Rotor Cranks? What Else Is There?

"NYC XYZ" wrote: (and just how did it come to be
> called clipless? Is this a could/couldn't-care-less kind of usage?)(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Toe clips, in the good old days, referred to the cages/straps which secured
the shoes to the platform pedals. The addition of a latch between the pedal
and the shoe allowed the clip to be discarded--hence, "clipless." I hate
that "I could care less" usage.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(clip)For this price, they should throw in a girl!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
They usually come with tandems. For recumbent riders it's an extra price
option often available on many street corners.

BTW, this is not a "clipless" post.
>