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Main
Date: 08 Dec 2005 11:01:10
From:
Subject: V2 Formula vs GRR
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I think Calhoun Cycle has the V2 Formula on sale for $2100, less than
the going rate for a quality used Gold Rush Replica. The V2 Formula
and GRR are both aluminum and come in around the same weight. So how
does the V2F compete with the GRR in the speed dept?
Jim Reilly
Reading, PA
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Date: 19 Dec 2005 16:19:46
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
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Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> >> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....
> >
> > Original post at
> > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.
>
> Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
> whatsoever....
Mr. Daniels is an intelligent person who has decided to make an art
form by deliberately mangling the English language. To do it as well as
he does requires considerable talent.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 20 Dec 2005 00:15:26
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1135037986.676906.287890@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> >> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....
>> >
>> > Original post at
>> > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.
>>
>> Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
>> whatsoever....
>
> Mr. Daniels is an intelligent person who has decided to make an art
> form by deliberately mangling the English language. To do it as well as
> he does requires considerable talent.
Nonsense! All of our recent presidents are world experts at mangling the
language. Eisenhower was a genius at it and Bush isn't bad at it either.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 18 Dec 2005 20:02:34
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not seem
> to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend, spend! I
> give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus americanus....
This is untrue. I spend very little compared to most middle class
USians, especially on categories such as food, entertainment, housing,
transportation, etc. It is not my fault that orphan Earth Cycles show
up periodically looking for homes [1].
As for work, I do what is necessary for maintaining employment, which
often happens to be substantially more than a 40-hour week. Unlike
slothful Ed Dolan, I do not have inherited property I can rent out for
profit, or other sources of UNEARNED income.
[1] I was NOT shopping for recumbents when I purchased Red Sunset,
Purple Sunset or Blue Dragonflyer.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 19 Dec 2005 01:19:06
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134964954.195503.190520@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not
>> seem
>> to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend,
>> spend! I
>> give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus
>> americanus....
>
> This is untrue. I spend very little compared to most middle class
> USians, especially on categories such as food, entertainment, housing,
> transportation, etc. It is not my fault that orphan Earth Cycles show
> up periodically looking for homes [1].
>
> As for work, I do what is necessary for maintaining employment, which
> often happens to be substantially more than a 40-hour week. Unlike
> slothful Ed Dolan, I do not have inherited property I can rent out for
> profit, or other sources of UNEARNED income.
Ed Dolan is very proud of his slothfulness. It is the very best thing about
him. He does the least harm to the world by being so slothful. Others should
imitate him instead of criticizing him. Ed Dolan says go forth and be
slothful!
As for UNEARNED income, my father earned it for me. Must we keep repeating
with every generation the cycle of work? My father worked so I don't have
to. Makes perfect sense to me! The trick to a nice lifestyle is to know when
to be born so that you can be the generation that does not have to slave
away at a job - like Tom Sherman does apparently. I was born lucky, he was
born unlucky.
That is enuf wisdom for one message for one day.
But something is very wrong with Mr. Sherman's telling of his situation. He
has a very good job as a civil engineer, he is not ried and does not have
10 children to support. Hells Bells, he ought to have the world by the tail.
There is some deep dark secret (perhaps a hidden vice) which the newsgroup
needs to know about. The only thing I can think of is that Mr. Sherman plays
the horses and loses all of his hard earned money at the race track.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 18 Dec 2005 19:53:22
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1134929039.927211.160580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> >>
> >> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
> >> everything
> >> else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when it
> >> comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built with
> >> square tubing.
> >
> > So Ed,
> >
> > Have you calculated bending and torsional stiffness for hollow square
> > and annulus cross-sections of equal mass per unit length? If not, why
> > are you making this statement? The failure load for buckling should
> > also be taken into account when designing with thin-walled tubing, such
> > as is used in bicycles.
> >
> > On a more intuitive basis, look at which recumbent bicycles have hollow
> > square cross-section tubing and which have annulus section tubing.
> > Correlate tubing type to price.
>
> Does annulus have anything to do with anus?
No, but it is revealing of Ed Dolan's mental state that he would think
so. ;)
One would think that a person with Ed Dolan's education, intellect and
breeding would know what annulus meant.
Definition: Annulus - The region lying between two concentric circles.
See: <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Annulus.html >.
The cross-section of the most commonly used bicycle tubing has the
shape of an annulus.
> Get over to rec.bicycles.tech and leave us the hell alone, why don't you?
No. :) It would be interesting to see Ed Dolan take his own suggestion.
> I have already said I am not into ultimate lightness when it comes to
> tubing. Only freaks like you care about things like that. All the world
> shops at Wal-t, but not Mr. Sherman. He sits at home worrying about those
> poor Chinese who are being exploited by big bad American business.
Wal-t's business model is to gain ket share by selling
commodities at a lower price than the competition. Profitability comes
through reducing costs and economies of scale in purchasing and
distribution.
Recumbent bicycles are not a commodity, but require specialized
knowledge to sell. The ket is small (as evidence by the number of
recumbent dealers). High end recumbents are not the type of products
that would be sold by Wal-t (or Wal-t's competition) for these
reasons.
Even specialized bicycle stores are usually not successful in selling
recumbents unless BOTH the ownership/management and sales staff are
committed. I am aware of several examples where the recumbents were
shuffled off to one corner, and potential customers would be given the
cold shoulder unless the store's "recumbent specialist" was available.
> >> I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are going
> >> to
> >> weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an extra
> >> thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my ever
> >> so
> >> humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of sense!
> >
> > The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
> > sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
> > corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
> > aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
> > thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
> > cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
> > a certain cachet through keting [1], and therefore is used in many
> > products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
>
> Anyone who buys an expensive bicycle made from esoteric tubing has more
> money than brains. What else is new?
4130 "Cro-moly" steel is a good compromise between material cost, ease
of fabrication and weight. That is why many mid-level bicycles (and
most steel frame recumbents) are made from 4130 steel.
> > [1] When keting hype and rational analysis collide in contemporary
> > society, keting hype usually wins the battle due to the lack of
> > knowledge.
>
> In other words, always buy the expensive crap. That way you can pretend you
> are better than everyone else.
The best value for the money is not often found at the very low end
[1], but the low end of the quality range. Thus bikes and trikes from
J&B/Sun exhibit reasonable trade-offs between weight, cost and
component quality. At a higher level, the best values may be found in
the entry level bikes from higher end manufacturers (e.g. RANS Rocket,
Tailwind and base model Velocity 2).
Of course, if a certain goal is important, such as having the fastest
bike allowed in stock class racing (e.g. Velokraft NoCom [2]), then one
has to pay substantially more for cutting edge design and performance.
[1] The very low end disappeared from the recumbent scene with the
demise of the ReBike and the Redbent and Blackbent III from Recumbant
(sic) Barn [3].
[2] Fastest unfaired bike in the known universe.
[3] An examination of older issues of RCN's will confirm that the
name was indeed misspelled.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 19 Dec 2005 00:53:18
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134964401.995359.158530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1134929039.927211.160580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Edward Dolan wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
>> >> everything
>> >> else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when
>> >> it
>> >> comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built
>> >> with
>> >> square tubing.
>> >
>> > So Ed,
>> >
>> > Have you calculated bending and torsional stiffness for hollow square
>> > and annulus cross-sections of equal mass per unit length? If not, why
>> > are you making this statement? The failure load for buckling should
>> > also be taken into account when designing with thin-walled tubing, such
>> > as is used in bicycles.
>> >
>> > On a more intuitive basis, look at which recumbent bicycles have hollow
>> > square cross-section tubing and which have annulus section tubing.
>> > Correlate tubing type to price.
>>
>> Does annulus have anything to do with anus?
>
> No, but it is revealing of Ed Dolan's mental state that he would think
> so. ;)
Mr. Sherman is the one who has Ed Gin for a good buddy and defends his
criminal trolling on ARBR. Ed Gin talks about nothing but matters related to
the anus, so of course I figured one good anus deserves another.
> One would think that a person with Ed Dolan's education, intellect and
> breeding would know what annulus meant.
>
> Definition: Annulus - The region lying between two concentric circles.
> See: <http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Annulus.html>.
>
> The cross-section of the most commonly used bicycle tubing has the
> shape of an annulus.
There is not one person in thousand who will know what annulus means. But it
is a k of your very profound ignorance that you would think others would
know this word. If you weren't such a dolt, you would provide definitions
for words that you use which are not commonly being used by others. This
would apply to most technical engineering, scientific and mathematical terms
in case you are in doubt.
>> Get over to rec.bicycles.tech and leave us the hell alone, why don't you?
>
> No. :) It would be interesting to see Ed Dolan take his own suggestion.
How the hell can there be a group devoted to technical matters in connection
with bicycles. Everything fundamental has been known about bicycles for a
hundred years at least. That group must be composed of nothing but nerds and
jerks. In other words, the perfect place for Mr. Sherman.
>> I have already said I am not into ultimate lightness when it comes to
>> tubing. Only freaks like you care about things like that. All the world
>> shops at Wal-t, but not Mr. Sherman. He sits at home worrying about
>> those
>> poor Chinese who are being exploited by big bad American business.
>
> Wal-t's business model is to gain ket share by selling
> commodities at a lower price than the competition. Profitability comes
> through reducing costs and economies of scale in purchasing and
> distribution.
You bet - and easier said than done!
> Recumbent bicycles are not a commodity, but require specialized
> knowledge to sell. The ket is small (as evidence by the number of
> recumbent dealers). High end recumbents are not the type of products
> that would be sold by Wal-t (or Wal-t's competition) for these
> reasons.
All of the above is true, but still it is not rocket science to know how to
sell a recumbent.
> Even specialized bicycle stores are usually not successful in selling
> recumbents unless BOTH the ownership/management and sales staff are
> committed. I am aware of several examples where the recumbents were
> shuffled off to one corner, and potential customers would be given the
> cold shoulder unless the store's "recumbent specialist" was available.
The very main problem with selling recumbents are the very high prices.
Until that changes, they will always be hard to sell.
>> >> I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are
>> >> going
>> >> to
>> >> weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an
>> >> extra
>> >> thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my
>> >> ever
>> >> so
>> >> humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of
>> >> sense!
>> >
>> > The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
>> > sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
>> > corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
>> > aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
>> > thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
>> > cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
>> > a certain cachet through keting [1], and therefore is used in many
>> > products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
>>
>> Anyone who buys an expensive bicycle made from esoteric tubing has more
>> money than brains. What else is new?
>
> 4130 "Cro-moly" steel is a good compromise between material cost, ease
> of fabrication and weight. That is why many mid-level bicycles (and
> most steel frame recumbents) are made from 4130 steel.
Agreed!
High tempered steel is not bad either. It is good enough for most bikes.
Cro-moly used to be expensive but it got cheap enough so that it could be
used in some not so expensive bikes. I remember looking at the decals on
bicycle tubing to see what it was. Reynolds 531 was the cat's pajamas at one
time. I never do that sort of thing anymore. With recumbents, the
configuration of the basic design is everything that matters to me. Either
get that right or forget about it.
>> > [1] When keting hype and rational analysis collide in contemporary
>> > society, keting hype usually wins the battle due to the lack of
>> > knowledge.
>>
>> In other words, always buy the expensive crap. That way you can pretend
>> you
>> are better than everyone else.
>
> The best value for the money is not often found at the very low end
> [1], but the low end of the quality range. Thus bikes and trikes from
> J&B/Sun exhibit reasonable trade-offs between weight, cost and
> component quality. At a higher level, the best values may be found in
> the entry level bikes from higher end manufacturers (e.g. RANS Rocket,
> Tailwind and base model Velocity 2).
Agreed!
> Of course, if a certain goal is important, such as having the fastest
> bike allowed in stock class racing (e.g. Velokraft NoCom [2]), then one
> has to pay substantially more for cutting edge design and performance.
Agreed!
> [1] The very low end disappeared from the recumbent scene with the
> demise of the ReBike and the Redbent and Blackbent III from Recumbant
> (sic) Barn [3].
Yes, they were all real clunkers which I was considering at one time or
another due to their low prices. Still I remain hopeful that some day
someone will be able to bring out a nice recumbent for just a few hundred
dollars. It can be a bit on the heavy side and have low end components. But
it has got to be a true recumbent and be comfy, which is the most important
thing about a recumbent.
> [2] Fastest unfaired bike in the known universe.
> [3] An examination of older issues of RCN's will confirm that the
> name was indeed misspelled.
I have every issue of RCN ever published. I still flip through them. Damn! I
wish there was an index to it. I am always vaguely remembering something I
read in RCN and never being able to find it.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 18 Dec 2005 10:04:00
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing everything
> else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when it
> comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built with
> square tubing.
So Ed,
Have you calculated bending and torsional stiffness for hollow square
and annulus cross-sections of equal mass per unit length? If not, why
are you making this statement? The failure load for buckling should
also be taken into account when designing with thin-walled tubing, such
as is used in bicycles.
On a more intuitive basis, look at which recumbent bicycles have hollow
square cross-section tubing and which have annulus section tubing.
Correlate tubing type to price.
> I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are going to
> weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an extra
> thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my ever so
> humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of sense!
The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
a certain cachet through keting [1], and therefore is used in many
products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
[1] When keting hype and rational analysis collide in contemporary
society, keting hype usually wins the battle due to the lack of
knowledge.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 20:56:01
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134929039.927211.160580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
>> everything
>> else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when it
>> comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built with
>> square tubing.
>
> So Ed,
>
> Have you calculated bending and torsional stiffness for hollow square
> and annulus cross-sections of equal mass per unit length? If not, why
> are you making this statement? The failure load for buckling should
> also be taken into account when designing with thin-walled tubing, such
> as is used in bicycles.
>
> On a more intuitive basis, look at which recumbent bicycles have hollow
> square cross-section tubing and which have annulus section tubing.
> Correlate tubing type to price.
Does annulus have anything to do with anus? Get over to rec.bicycles.tech
and leave us the hell alone, why don't you?
I have already said I am not into ultimate lightness when it comes to
tubing. Only freaks like you care about things like that. All the world
shops at Wal-t, but not Mr. Sherman. He sits at home worrying about those
poor Chinese who are being exploited by big bad American business.
>> I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are going
>> to
>> weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an extra
>> thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my ever
>> so
>> humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of sense!
>
> The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
> sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
> corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
> aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
> thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
> cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
> a certain cachet through keting [1], and therefore is used in many
> products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
Anyone who buys an expensive bicycle made from esoteric tubing has more
money than brains. What else is new?
> [1] When keting hype and rational analysis collide in contemporary
> society, keting hype usually wins the battle due to the lack of
> knowledge.
In other words, always buy the expensive crap. That way you can pretend you
are better than everyone else.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 18:55:54
From: Roger Houston
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134929039.927211.160580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> [1] When keting hype and rational analysis collide in contemporary
> society, keting hype usually wins the battle due to the lack of
> knowledge.
Boy, you got that right. We've seen that time and time again.
As Carlos Santana once said, those who flunk history are fated to repeat it.
|
| |
Date: 17 Dec 2005 06:36:00
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1134781625.684411.95930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Edward Dolan wrote:
> >> ...
> >> I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the Cobra
> >> hard
> >> shell seat is pure hell.
> >
> > The mesh back seat with a foam pad over a molded base from Easy Racers
> > is the "Koolback", not "Cool Mesh".
>
> Whatever!
The great Ed Dolan makes a mistake!
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
> > 0."ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the
> > edo
> > unless you are bound by ego
> > riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
> > edo" - G. Daniels
>
> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....
Original post at
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"Locktite produces a slip fit enhancer
allowing all kinds of unbearable tolerance screwups depending on the
mishape, load, weather, and the time and geography of manufacture. Try
the locktite, see the NAPA man for advice and fresh formulation and
prices as reliable as what you read here. bring the bike over and
grovel." - G. Daniels [1]
[1]
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/13f91a200724cd1c?dmode=source >.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 02:11:05
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134830160.734243.303400@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1134781625.684411.95930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Edward Dolan wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the
>> >> Cobra
>> >> hard
>> >> shell seat is pure hell.
>> >
>> > The mesh back seat with a foam pad over a molded base from Easy Racers
>> > is the "Koolback", not "Cool Mesh".
>>
>> Whatever!
>
> The great Ed Dolan makes a mistake!
I am not a pedant like you and I am also not an industrious beaver like you.
I am too Great to be bothered with trifling details. I am like a fox who
knows things broadly and you are like a hedgehog who knows things narrowly.
>> > --
>> > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
>> > 0."ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the
>> > edo
>> > unless you are bound by ego
>> > riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
>> > edo" - G. Daniels
>>
>> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....
>
> Original post at
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.
Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
whatsoever. Remind me never to go to rec.bicycles.tech. I wonder what you
are doing there?
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 16 Dec 2005 17:07:05
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the Cobra hard
> shell seat is pure hell.
The mesh back seat with a foam pad over a molded base from Easy Racers
is the "Koolback", not "Cool Mesh".
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
0."ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the
edo
unless you are bound by ego
riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
edo" - G. Daniels
|
| | |
Date: 16 Dec 2005 23:39:47
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134781625.684411.95930@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the Cobra
>> hard
>> shell seat is pure hell.
>
> The mesh back seat with a foam pad over a molded base from Easy Racers
> is the "Koolback", not "Cool Mesh".
Whatever!
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
> 0."ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the
> edo
> unless you are bound by ego
> riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
> edo" - G. Daniels
I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all. Instead it is Mr.
Sherman who is saying it because he is jealous of me. I have become the most
prolific poster of all time to ARBR from a single email address (which is
all that counts when it comes to the statistic). He is doomed never to
overtake me because he keeps changing his email address. My ego has
superseded his ego. Yes indeed, it is all about the edo.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 16 Dec 2005 05:21:06
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
I have to do it this year.... I may have to sell the Strada and maybe
the Stratus as part of the agreement (with my wife of course), but it's
time for me to part with the $$$ and get a GRR.
Jim
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Date: 16 Dec 2005 07:38:04
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
<jreilly@enter.net > wrote in message
news:1134739266.351911.271430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>I have to do it this year.... I may have to sell the Strada and maybe
> the Stratus as part of the agreement (with my wife of course), but it's
> time for me to part with the $$$ and get a GRR.
>
> Jim
A friend of mine, formerly from Nebraska and now of Virginia, got himself a
GRR and he just loves it. He had a Vision and a Terra Trike, but he has let
them go and now rides his GRR exclusively. He got the polished aluminum one
which is a real looker. I would recommend that you get that one too. The GRR
is an expensive bike and therefore it might as well look it.
I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the Cobra hard
shell seat is pure hell.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 15 Dec 2005 16:44:12
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> I guess this proves Ed's point! I am old! I was warned the mind would
> start to go after 40! I just didn't think it would happen to me! How
> sad is that.
I was actually looking for something else in Google Groups archives and
found it interesting that Jim Reilly asked basically the same question
2 years ago and I provided basically the same answer.
Message to Jim - time is a wasting! Just buy the GRR or V2 Formula in
time for spring riding. If you can not decide, just get both! :)
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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| | |
Date: 16 Dec 2005 01:27:20
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134693851.937821.279430@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net> wrote:
>> I guess this proves Ed's point! I am old! I was warned the mind would
>> start to go after 40! I just didn't think it would happen to me! How
>> sad is that.
>
> I was actually looking for something else in Google Groups archives and
> found it interesting that Jim Reilly asked basically the same question
> 2 years ago and I provided basically the same answer.
>
> Message to Jim - time is a wasting! Just buy the GRR or V2 Formula in
> time for spring riding. If you can not decide, just get both! :)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
Tom has a point here. I have let life pass me by because I will think a
thing to death. It is better sometimes to just take the plunge and get
whatever it is that you think you want. Then it is over and done with and I
think you are generally happier for having done something.
I am famous for never doing anything, but there is almost nothing I haven't
thought of doing. The end result of my way is to end up with a lot of
regrets. People have been known to die from pining away with regret.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 15 Dec 2005 11:20:49
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
I guess this proves Ed's point! I am old! I was warned the mind would
start to go after 40! I just didn't think it would happen to me! How
sad is that.
Jim
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Date: 14 Dec 2005 18:46:37
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> I think Calhoun Cycle has the V2 Formula on sale for $2100, less than
> the going rate for a quality used Gold Rush Replica. The V2 Formula
> and GRR are both aluminum and come in around the same weight. So how
> does the V2F compete with the GRR in the speed dept?
>
> Jim Reilly
> Reading, PA
HEY, check out this thread from a little less than two (2) years ago:
<http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent/browse_frm/thread/2647e0fd95540d39/b9a287a35f5fc084?q=battle+mountain+sherman&rnum=6#b9a287a35f5fc084 >.
Does history repeat itself? :)
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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Date: 12 Dec 2005 17:14:41
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
>...
> We are presently engaged in Iraq and fully occupied in as much as the
> cowardly Europeans are not doing their fair share.
Who's we, white man? - Tonto
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota
>
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
> > "ever get suspicious about chain saw oil attracting wood dust?
> > generally mucking up after two cuts?
> > try dumping hot oil into a container just right sized for inserting
> > the running blade on the job. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
> > plus 750 rpm! " - G. Daniels
>
> PS. The above is the messiest signature I have ever seen...
You are supposed to imagine a running chain saw being dipped into hot
oil. :)
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the edo
unless you are bound by ego
riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
edo" - G. Daniels
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Date: 12 Dec 2005 21:07:17
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134436481.286155.170030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>...
>> We are presently engaged in Iraq and fully occupied in as much as the
>> cowardly Europeans are not doing their fair share.
>
> Who's we, white man? - Tonto
There is no use pretending that there is anyone on this group except
Americans. Yes, there are a few foreigners, mostly from the UK, but they do
not count for much. Essentially, ARBR is an American newsgroup and the
majority of posters to this group are Midwestern Americans.
Whatever happened to those Danes who used to occasionally show up here? No
more Germans either. I have been waiting for years for a Frenchman to show
up, but no such luck!
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 11 Dec 2005 19:56:28
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> I think one of the main costs involved with building recumbents is the labor
> cost. A bolted together recumbent made out of aluminum square tubes would go
> a long ways to solving the cost of labor. Yes, the weight would be more and
> the components would be bottom of the line. I would not care about either of
> those considerations. The price is the main thing. If someone could figure
> out how to build a recumbent for a couple of hundred dollars, who knows what
> might transpire. I believe recumbents are where they are today (few and far
> between) because they are so damn expensive.
Here is how bicycle shaped objects costing less then $100 US are
brought to ket:
<http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/chinareport/huffybikesdoc.shtml >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"ever get suspicious about chain saw oil attracting wood dust?
generally mucking up after two cuts?
try dumping hot oil into a container just right sized for inserting
the running blade on the job. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
plus 750 rpm! " - G. Daniels
|
| | |
Date: 12 Dec 2005 03:21:49
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134359788.260634.206280@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> I think one of the main costs involved with building recumbents is the
>> labor
>> cost. A bolted together recumbent made out of aluminum square tubes would
>> go
>> a long ways to solving the cost of labor. Yes, the weight would be more
>> and
>> the components would be bottom of the line. I would not care about either
>> of
>> those considerations. The price is the main thing. If someone could
>> figure
>> out how to build a recumbent for a couple of hundred dollars, who knows
>> what
>> might transpire. I believe recumbents are where they are today (few and
>> far
>> between) because they are so damn expensive.
>
> Here is how bicycle shaped objects costing less then $100 US are
> brought to ket:
> <http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/chinareport/huffybikesdoc.shtml>.
That is China's problem, not ours. We can't fix the whole world now can we?
We are presently engaged in Iraq and fully occupied in as much as the
cowardly Europeans are not doing their fair share.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
> "ever get suspicious about chain saw oil attracting wood dust?
> generally mucking up after two cuts?
> try dumping hot oil into a container just right sized for inserting
> the running blade on the job. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.....
> plus 750 rpm! " - G. Daniels
PS. The above is the messiest signature I have ever seen, always excepting
of course that of Peter Clinch of Dundee, Scotland. He is a medical physics
officer in a hospital which I am dying to know about, but he refuses to tell
me what it is. I am too proud to ever look it up, former librarian that I
am.
|
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Date: 11 Dec 2005 18:47:00
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> Tom, awhile back there was a guy who was going to bring out a whole line of
> recumbents that would be bolted together out of aluminum square tubes. It
> would have been possible to configure the bike many different ways depending
> on how you wanted to bolt it together. I got very excited about all of this
> until I heard his prices. However, I don't think he ever went into
> production. I think he was located in Texas, but I am not sure about that.
Ed Dolan may be thinking about Rich Richardson's Raptor Trike:
<http://www.raptortrikes.com/ >.
> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem like
> it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am I
> missing I wonder?
$1,200 US is a low price for a trike (what the Raptor costs), but there
are compromises in component level (e.g. Shimano Tourney 7-speed, rim
brakes) and weight (e.g. 39 pounds is much heavier than the welded
aluminium Catrike).
As why the rest of the industry has not adopted the bolted together
method of construction, they are either "behind the curve" or the
method is not necessarily superior or competitive.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
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| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 21:15:49
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134355620.638612.75790@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>> Tom, awhile back there was a guy who was going to bring out a whole line
>> of
>> recumbents that would be bolted together out of aluminum square tubes. It
>> would have been possible to configure the bike many different ways
>> depending
>> on how you wanted to bolt it together. I got very excited about all of
>> this
>> until I heard his prices. However, I don't think he ever went into
>> production. I think he was located in Texas, but I am not sure about
>> that.
>
> Ed Dolan may be thinking about Rich Richardson's Raptor Trike:
> <http://www.raptortrikes.com/>.
No, it was not the above. I will do some research on this and get back to
you as I think it is something that you should know about.
>> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
>> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem
>> like
>> it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am I
>> missing I wonder?
>
> $1,200 US is a low price for a trike (what the Raptor costs), but there
> are compromises in component level (e.g. Shimano Tourney 7-speed, rim
> brakes) and weight (e.g. 39 pounds is much heavier than the welded
> aluminium Catrike).
>
> As why the rest of the industry has not adopted the bolted together
> method of construction, they are either "behind the curve" or the
> method is not necessarily superior or competitive.
I think one of the main costs involved with building recumbents is the labor
cost. A bolted together recumbent made out of aluminum square tubes would go
a long ways to solving the cost of labor. Yes, the weight would be more and
the components would be bottom of the line. I would not care about either of
those considerations. The price is the main thing. If someone could figure
out how to build a recumbent for a couple of hundred dollars, who knows what
might transpire. I believe recumbents are where they are today (few and far
between) because they are so damn expensive.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
> "the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
> wave
> Point" - G. Daniels
PS. Tom, your signature is a mess. It badly needs to be cleaned up.
|
| |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 09:55:48
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly wrote:
> The fit and finish work [of the Earth Cycles Dragonflyer] look top notch.
But probably too labor intensive from a business point of view. :(
Shean Bjoralt may not have been a good businessman, but he certainly
was a skilled and dedicated artisan. An examination of the Dragonflyer
indicates that the $3,850 asking price may have been too low
considering the labor involved. One could argue that the design could
have been simplified so as to bring a quality product to ket at a
lower price (e.g. Catrike) but it is what it is.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 20:08:13
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134323747.933327.240300@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jim Reilly wrote:
>> The fit and finish work [of the Earth Cycles Dragonflyer] look top notch.
>
> But probably too labor intensive from a business point of view. :(
>
> Shean Bjoralt may not have been a good businessman, but he certainly
> was a skilled and dedicated artisan. An examination of the Dragonflyer
> indicates that the $3,850 asking price may have been too low
> considering the labor involved. One could argue that the design could
> have been simplified so as to bring a quality product to ket at a
> lower price (e.g. Catrike) but it is what it is.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
Tom, awhile back there was a guy who was going to bring out a whole line of
recumbents that would be bolted together out of aluminum square tubes. It
would have been possible to configure the bike many different ways depending
on how you wanted to bolt it together. I got very excited about all of this
until I heard his prices. However, I don't think he ever went into
production. I think he was located in Texas, but I am not sure about that.
Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem like
it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am I
missing I wonder?
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 09:29:27
From: Roger Houston
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:jr2dncMd1PMSRgHeRVn-jQ@prairiewave.com...
> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem
> like it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am I
> missing I wonder?
strength to weight ratio? A frame of square tubes would have to be somewhat
heavier than its counterpart of round or ovalized tubes if resistance to the
bending of the tubes were held equal, I'd intuitively imagine. Could be
wrong...
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 10:00:18
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Roger Houston" <houstonr@nasa.org > wrote in message
news:d4SdnXJUjqTnHzjeRVn-vw@centurytel.net...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:jr2dncMd1PMSRgHeRVn-jQ@prairiewave.com...
>
>> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
>> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem
>> like it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am
>> I missing I wonder?
>
> strength to weight ratio? A frame of square tubes would have to be
> somewhat heavier than its counterpart of round or ovalized tubes if
> resistance to the bending of the tubes were held equal, I'd intuitively
> imagine. Could be wrong...
I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing everything
else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when it
comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built with
square tubing.
I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are going to
weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an extra
thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my ever so
humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of sense!
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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| | | | | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 18:53:17
From: Roger Houston
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:F_-dnfPFf6oAGjjenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@prairiewave.com...
>
> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
> everything else being equal.
Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just curious.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2005 13:43:37
From: nget
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Roger Houston Wrote:
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:F_-dnfPFf6oAGjjenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@prairiewave.com...
> >
> > I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
> > everything else being equal.
>
> Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, jus
> curious.
Is it because the hole under the bar they are jumping is round? Th
pole is meant to absorb the energy of the running jumper and give mos
of that energy back in the upward direction. More important than th
shape of the pole would be what the pole is made of
--
nget
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Dec 2005 07:39:38
From: Roger Houston
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"nget" <nget.209o1y@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote in message
news:nget.209o1y@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
>>
>> Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just
>> curious.
> Is it because the hole under the bar they are jumping is round? The
> pole is meant to absorb the energy of the running jumper and give most
> of that energy back in the upward direction. More important than the
> shape of the pole would be what the pole is made of.
Again, I'm approaching this from an intuitive standpoint and not meaning to
be argumentative. But it would seem that the strength-to-weight ratio of
the pole would be a critical design consideration. I suppose that an
ergonomic grip would be important as well, but if I remember right (I was a
shot-putter) the socket into which the base of the pole is set is more
rectangular than round.
I still intuitively believe a round tube to be inherently stronger than a
rectangular one for a given wall thickness and weight of material. But,
again, I could be wrong. My son is a mechanical engineer (but he didn't get
his sts from my side of the family...) so I'll ask him sometime.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 20 Dec 2005 00:09:14
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Roger Houston" <houstonr@nasa.org > wrote in message
news:NdudnSTler2PJzvenZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@centurytel.net...
[...]
> I still intuitively believe a round tube to be inherently stronger than a
> rectangular one for a given wall thickness and weight of material. But,
> again, I could be wrong. My son is a mechanical engineer (but he didn't
> get his sts from my side of the family...) so I'll ask him sometime.
I do recall reading that a square tube was stronger than a round tube,
everything else being equal. But it may be that a square tube in order to be
stronger must also be slightly heavier.
Bicycles could just as easily be made out of square tubes as round tubes,
but the esthetics are against it. Round tubes just look so much nicer. I am
one of the very few who like the looks of square tubes.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 18 Dec 2005 21:08:36
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Roger Houston" <houstonr@nasa.org > wrote in message
news:NICdnSKHuMGRmzveRVn-jA@centurytel.net...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:F_-dnfPFf6oAGjjenZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@prairiewave.com...
>>
>> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
>> everything else being equal.
>
> Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just
> curious.
It is all about weight, but like I have already said I am not into ultimate
lightness. You pay a premium for that and it is not worth it except for
racers. Any racers here? I thought not!
The very best thing most of us could do to lighten our bikes is to take some
weight off of our bodies. But it is easier to spend thousands of extra
dollars than to lose some weight. The former just takes extra work whereas
the latter takes some discipline.
Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not seem
to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend, spend! I
give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus americanus.
Now, aren't you glad you asked?
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 09:41:58
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
I first met Bill in Salisbury, MD at the Seagull Century probably five
or six years ago. He was riding his protype of the "Oregon", his
front-wheel drive low racer. He could really move on that thing! I
crossed paths with him again in Washington DC at a recumbent ride
sponsored by WHIRL. He had a "Dakota" with him that day. Very nice
bike with VERY loyal following! In fact, k Colliton had an early
GIRO (the original green version) and a prototype of the "AERO" at the
same event.
Jim
|
| | |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 20:15:32
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
<jreilly@enter.net > wrote in message
news:1134322918.149280.28480@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I first met Bill in Salisbury, MD at the Seagull Century probably five
> or six years ago. He was riding his protype of the "Oregon", his
> front-wheel drive low racer. He could really move on that thing! I
> crossed paths with him again in Washington DC at a recumbent ride
> sponsored by WHIRL. He had a "Dakota" with him that day. Very nice
> bike with VERY loyal following! In fact, k Colliton had an early
> GIRO (the original green version) and a prototype of the "AERO" at the
> same event.
>
> Jim
On the North Dakota ride (CANDISC) I tried to keep up with Bill on my
Vision, but it was impossible. He was a very steady fast rider whereas I am
only occasionally fast. I remember at the time that he mentioned that he
wanted his bike to be comfortable (that meant laid back) and fast (that
meant aerodynamic). I think his bikes (Barcroft) achieved both those aims.
It is too bad they cost around $2000.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 11 Dec 2005 09:29:08
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
The fit and finish work look top notch.
Jim
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 12:56:01
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
> many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
> difficult to transport.
There are some Easy Racer owners that have either replaced their bikes
with a Fold-Rush [1] or purchased a Fold Rush as an additional bike for
this very reason.
> The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
> not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
> scared myself to death....
"Dead Ed" Dolan is posting from the afterlife?
[1] <http://www.easyracers.com/fold_rush.htm >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 12:46:31
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
> recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so Mr.
> Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish up
> with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are getting
> on in years and we can't wait for you forever.
The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
(ask those who invested in BikeE).
> I once met Bill Cook on the North Dakota bike tour (CANDISC). Bill is the
> designer and builder of his own line of recumbents (Barcroft). He had just
> recently retired from being a writer for Newsweek. He took his time and
> gradually got his recumbent the way he wanted it. It turned out to be a
> rather long short wheel base and was quite unique. The seat was fairly laid
> back and the crank was fairly high. I rode his prototype and liked it but I
> told him I couldn't buy it from him because my feet would go numb from the
> high crank. Unfortunately he ended up pricing it at $2000., a bit out of my
> price range.
I met Bill Cook at CABDA 2000 [1] and he seemed very enthusiastic about
his bikes. [2]
A couple of corrections. Bill Cook wrote for US News & World Report,
not Newsweek.
Secondly, Bill Cook/Barcroft subcontracts most of the work, such as
frame building and painting. This minimizes his capital investment,
since in many cases he can wait until he receives an order to have the
frame built (an advantage of being a semi-custom, low volume builder).
I suspect that Mr. Cook's priy reward is getting to have bicycles he
likes created and receiving positive feedback from Barcroft owners, and
not financial profit.
> If a writer for Newsweek could design and build recumbents, surely Mr.
> Sherman could also. I believe Mr. Sherman with his engineering background
> and all his recumbent knowledge could come up with a very nice recumbent,
> one that would be fast and comfortable and one that would not put my feet to
> sleep; also, one that would not cost an arm and a leg.
My local bike shop has bikes and trikes for people that have missing or
damaged appendages or other physical handicaps:
<http://thebikerack.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=396 >.
[1] 2001 was the last CABDA show.
[2] <http://www.barcroftcycles.com/ >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 22:06:16
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134247591.110127.258450@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
>> recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so
>> Mr.
>> Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish
>> up
>> with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are
>> getting
>> on in years and we can't wait for you forever.
>
> The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
> independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
> manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
> (ask those who invested in BikeE).
[...]
The trick is to figure out how to make a nice recumbent that does not cost
much. In order to do this you would have to be a st person. I think
almost anyone can build a recumbent if price is no object. I am sick to
death of $2000. recumbents. Where are the $200. recumbents?
I believe Mr. Sherman could prove to the world how st he is by designing
and building a nice recumbent that would only cost $200. The world would
acclaim him a genius if he would do this. However, if all he can do is come
up with another $2000. recumbent, then I say let him continue with his
engineering career. The world does not need any more $2000. recumbents.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 12:28:24
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
> built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?
Earth Cycles built approximately 20 Sunset Lowracers and 200
Dragonflyer trikes.
Here are pictures of my Dragonflyer taken by the previous owner:
<http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/ >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 12:14:37
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Ed, the age thing really hit home for me two weeks ago at my 25 year
high school reunion. I walked in with my wife, looked around, and
said, "let's go", I must be in the wrong place. I certainly didn't go
to school with the fat, bald/gray old men in this room! Ah but I did!
And after closer examination in the mirror I see that I AM one (except
for the fat part)!
Jim
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 04:48:43
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
with a slightly higher BB for performance.
Regards,
Jim
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 07:15:01
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
<jreilly@enter.net > wrote in message
news:1134218923.724191.70780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
> mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
> issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
> set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
> bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
> OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
> the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
> xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
> well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
> fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
> don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
> no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
> Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
> correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
> faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
> the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
> offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
> with a slightly higher BB for performance.
>
> Regards,
> Jim
Everything you say above hits home with me. I also have a 43" x-seam and I
do need the larger frames. If you get the RANS V2 be sure it is in the
larger size as you do not want to be all the way back on the frame. The same
would be true if you decided to get the GRR.
The V2 handles much better than any SWB, but the higher crank means that you
can get SWB comfort as easy as pie. But the handling is not as secure as the
TE. I do not get numb feet on the V2, but if the crank were another inch
higher I think I would. I know I am right at the edge of what is possible
for me.
The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
difficult to transport.
The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
scared myself to death. That never happens on a LWB.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 04:28:38
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
year old dad is REALLY old.
Jim
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 07:38:35
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
<jreilly@enter.net > wrote in message
news:1134217718.215495.235180@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
> like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
> blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
> well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
> year old dad is REALLY old.
>
> Jim
I have got a theory about how old is old. I think in a state of nature none
of us would live much beyond 30. By state of nature I mean the hundreds of
thousands of years of our primate ancestors and of our own species, Homo
sapiens. In other words, nothing beyond the Old Stone Age.
Therefore, if you are over 40 you are old by my definition. Mostly our
bodies are starting to fall apart in our 20's and it just gets worse and
worse as we age.
However, even a high civilization was no guarantee that you would live very
long. The catacombs of Ancient Rome are full of people who never lived
beyond their 20's. In fact the average age of those entombed there is 24! It
is really the invention of modern scientific medicine with its emphasis on
public health measures that has given us a shot at a longer life. Left to
the tender mercies of Mother Nature, we are old by 30 and most us would be
dead by 40.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 04:19:39
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?
Jim
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 19:23:21
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
> up and listen.
If that is the case, why are you not riding an Earth Cycles Sunset
Lowracer? Do I need to do more to promote the virtues of the Sunset? ;)
[Sounds of people screaming in terror as they flee in panic.]
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 19:20:01
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> Tom, your analysis was as thorough and as complete as I could have
> possibly hoped for. Ed, I also appreciate your input as well.
> Ultimately, I think I MUST satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps lust by
> finding the $$$ to buy a newer, used GRR. I have been flirting with
> this purchase since I bought my Stratus in 99....
I have noted two (2) common experiences among those who buy Easy
Racers. One group appreciates the bike's handling, performance and
quality, but they never get quite comfortable with the riding position.
The other group seems to ride their Easy Racers to the preference of
all other bikes. These people often sell their Tour Easy's and buy
GRR's, or sell their GRR's to buy Ti-GRR's.
> Then I bought my Strada
> in 2003. And while I am not inclined to bitch and moan like the HRS
> crowd, the Strada is not the right bike for me. After 2 years and
> several thousand miles, I still don't feel as secure and as confident
> (though I am faster) on the Strada as I do on the Stratus....
Both the input from peripheral vision and from the inner ear than are
used for balance are altered by being in a highly reclined position
(and the greater the seat height the more the visual clues are
altered). These factors may well account for some rider's having
difficulty adjusting to bikes with this riding position. The Strada
likely lacks the directional stability of the Stratus due to the
greater tiller and wheelbase of the latter bike. I would be interested
in seeing trail measurements for both bicycles - many SWB designers use
insufficient trail.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
|
| | |
Date: 10 Dec 2005 00:59:08
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134184801.569887.189920@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jim Reilly <jreilly@enter.net> wrote:
>> Tom, your analysis was as thorough and as complete as I could have
>> possibly hoped for. Ed, I also appreciate your input as well.
>> Ultimately, I think I MUST satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps lust by
>> finding the $$$ to buy a newer, used GRR. I have been flirting with
>> this purchase since I bought my Stratus in 99....
>
> I have noted two (2) common experiences among those who buy Easy
> Racers. One group appreciates the bike's handling, performance and
> quality, but they never get quite comfortable with the riding position.
>
> The other group seems to ride their Easy Racers to the preference of
> all other bikes. These people often sell their Tour Easy's and buy
> GRR's, or sell their GRR's to buy Ti-GRR's.
>
>> Then I bought my Strada
>> in 2003. And while I am not inclined to bitch and moan like the HRS
>> crowd, the Strada is not the right bike for me. After 2 years and
>> several thousand miles, I still don't feel as secure and as confident
>> (though I am faster) on the Strada as I do on the Stratus....
>
> Both the input from peripheral vision and from the inner ear than are
> used for balance are altered by being in a highly reclined position
> (and the greater the seat height the more the visual clues are
> altered). These factors may well account for some rider's having
> difficulty adjusting to bikes with this riding position. The Strada
> likely lacks the directional stability of the Stratus due to the
> greater tiller and wheelbase of the latter bike. I would be interested
> in seeing trail measurements for both bicycles - many SWB designers use
> insufficient trail.
Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so Mr.
Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish up
with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are getting
on in years and we can't wait for you forever.
I once met Bill Cook on the North Dakota bike tour (CANDISC). Bill is the
designer and builder of his own line of recumbents (Barcroft). He had just
recently retired from being a writer for Newsweek. He took his time and
gradually got his recumbent the way he wanted it. It turned out to be a
rather long short wheel base and was quite unique. The seat was fairly laid
back and the crank was fairly high. I rode his prototype and liked it but I
told him I couldn't buy it from him because my feet would go numb from the
high crank. Unfortunately he ended up pricing it at $2000., a bit out of my
price range.
If a writer for Newsweek could design and build recumbents, surely Mr.
Sherman could also. I believe Mr. Sherman with his engineering background
and all his recumbent knowledge could come up with a very nice recumbent,
one that would be fast and comfortable and one that would not put my feet to
sleep; also, one that would not cost an arm and a leg.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 19:04:36
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Perry Butler <perryb67@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
> >
> > However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
> > more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
> > coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
> > a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
> > advantage.
> >
>
> Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
> easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider....
However, moving the fairing closer to the rider would increase the
amount of tiller on the V2 [1], and most seem to believe that would be
detrimental to the handling. One of the conscious design decisions Easy
Racers made was to reduce tiller (which of course puts other
limitations on possible rider positions).
> The GRR rider sits
> closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
> of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
> and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
> uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
> Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
> Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
> Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
> This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
> noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
> wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
> winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.
I have ridden on a lowracer besides several Easy Racers with Super
Zzipper front fairings, and in all cases I can determine the Easy
Racers rider's cadence by sound alone, as there is a distinct change as
the rider's foot passed through the zone unprotected by the fairing.
The additional drag caused here can be estimated by noting the speed
change between coasting downhill while pedaling in too low of a gear to
provide any power to the drive wheel (the effect of doing this is also
quite noticeable on an unfaired bicycle).
[1] Unless the weight, cost and complexity of indirect steering was
added.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 14:02:52
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
>
> However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
> more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
> coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
> a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
> advantage.
>
Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider. The GRR rider sits
closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.
Last summer I talked to a rider who had mounted a Zzipper on his V2 and
he also felt that the front bow on the Mueller is not needed nor is
aerodynamic. He wished Zzipper would make a fairing for the V2 that
was longer and would also come closer to the rider. With a better
fairing design bringing the fairing closer to the body of the V2 rider,
the V2 would, in my mind, be as fast or perhaps faster than the GRR.
Enjoy,
Perry B
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 07:09:50
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Tom, your analysis was as thorough and as complete as I could have
possibly hoped for. Ed, I also appreciate your input as well.
Ultimately, I think I MUST satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps lust by
finding the $$$ to buy a newer, used GRR. I have been flirting with
this purchase since I bought my Stratus in 99. Then I bought my Strada
in 2003. And while I am not inclined to bitch and moan like the HRS
crowd, the Strada is not the right bike for me. After 2 years and
several thousand miles, I still don't feel as secure and as confident
(though I am faster) on the Strada as I do on the Stratus.
Thanks again to both of you.
Jim Reilly
Reading, PA (once home to the Reading Railroad... like on Monopoly
board)
|
| | |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 21:20:18
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
<jreilly@enter.net > wrote in message
news:1134140990.050322.278450@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Tom, your analysis was as thorough and as complete as I could have
> possibly hoped for. Ed, I also appreciate your input as well.
> Ultimately, I think I MUST satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps lust by
> finding the $$$ to buy a newer, used GRR. I have been flirting with
> this purchase since I bought my Stratus in 99. Then I bought my Strada
> in 2003. And while I am not inclined to bitch and moan like the HRS
> crowd, the Strada is not the right bike for me. After 2 years and
> several thousand miles, I still don't feel as secure and as confident
> (though I am faster) on the Strada as I do on the Stratus.
>
> Thanks again to both of you.
>
> Jim Reilly
> Reading, PA (once home to the Reading Railroad... like on Monopoly
> board)
Jim, I think I recall when you were considering getting the Strada, but it
does not seem like 3 years ago. However, time flies and I cannot keep track
of it anymore.
I believe a SWB high BB recumbent will make for some additional difficulty
in handling that you do not get on a lower BB LWB recumbent. I must admit I
do have bikes that I do not ride as much as I had planned because they
present ever so slight handling difficulties. These bikes are all SWB high
BB.
Mostly when I ride my recumbents, I do not want to even be thinking about
any technical aspects of the bike. I simply wan to go and forget about the
bike. I find I can do this best on LWB recumbents with not too high a BB.
Feeling secure on your recumbent has got to be second nature because of
various traffic and road situations that will crop up. I can't afford to be
fussing with the bike when the road requires 100% of my attention.
The RANS V2 is a LWB but it feels and rides a bit like a SWB. The BB is
fairly high (slightly above the seat) but not too high. You will never feel
as secure on the V2 as you will on a Tour Easy due to the placement of the
crank. The trick to getting comfy on the TE is to get the seat laid back to
the max without compromising your pedaling power too much. Also, do not ever
go near that Cobra seat. It is nothing but sheer torture.
The main thing to remember though is that I don't think the TE or GRR is all
that different than your Stratus. I have known several recumbent riders who
very much like their Stratus and think it is the greatest bike in the world.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 06:48:55
From:
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
up and listen.
Jim
|
| |
Date: 08 Dec 2005 21:28:17
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
> the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
> of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.
Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
handle much better than the original version, according to most who
have ridden both.
[1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"are there stones on distant mountain decents king the gored and
deceased? arms and wrists broken ?
or is this unreported?" - G. Daniels
|
| | |
Date: 09 Dec 2005 01:25:41
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134106097.763850.82520@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
>> the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind,
>> one
>> of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.
>
> Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
> cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
> tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
> handle much better than the original version, according to most who
> have ridden both.
>
> [1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
> chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
> distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.
Yes, you have got all of the above exactly right!
Damn! Mr. Sherman really does know his recumbents like no one else on this
newsgroup, of that there can be no doubt. When Mr. Sherman speaks on the
subject of recumbents, I shut up and listen.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 08 Dec 2005 19:44:35
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
> ... so that will generally be [not] be a decisive factor.
Please note correction - Ed. [1]
[1] Abbreviation for "Editor", not "Edward".
|
| |
Date: 08 Dec 2005 18:59:28
From: Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Jim Reilly of Reading, PA <jreilly@enter.net > wrote:
> I think Calhoun Cycle has the V2 Formula on sale for $2100, less than
> the going rate for a quality used Gold Rush Replica. The V2 Formula
> and GRR are both aluminum and come in around the same weight. So how
> does the V2F compete with the GRR in the speed dept?
Unless there is data using power measuring cranks or hubs, we have to
rely on "thought experiment" analysis, since anecdotal evidence is
rather inaccurate, even when honestly reported.
The Gold Rush Replica (GRR) [1] would appear to have slightly less
drivetrain friction and should have slightly less rolling resistance
(with comparable tires) than the RANS V2 Formula [2] (generally more
significant on rough pavement than on smooth pavement).
Listed weight of the two bikes is comparable, so performance
differences due to weight differential could be expected to be minimal.
Aerodynamic will be more important in most instances than drivetrain
friction and rolling resistance. Due to the higher bottom bracket (BB)
and more reclined seating position, the RANS V2 bicycle/rider
combination will have less frontal area, and the V2 rider will have
his/her feet behind a front fairing (if mounted) for a greater portion
of the pedal cycle. So the V2 should have an advantage when bare or
front faired combined with a bodysock.
However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
advantage.
Ergonomics and rider position will affect power production. A rider
familiar with one of the bikes switching to the other will likely
suffer a decrease in average power production until he/she adjusts to
the new bike. This should be taken into account when evaluating
measured performance differences than do not include power
measurements.
If the rider will be doing a lot of climbing, riding on rough pavement,
or riding with only a front fairing, the GRR would appear to have a
small theoretical advantage. This slight theoretical advantage will be
in favor of the V2 Formula in flat windy conditions with smooth
pavement, or when no fairing or a full bodysock is used.
However, the inherent performance advantage of either bicycle is likely
to be outweighed by the influence of rider comfort on performance. Some
will find the medium height BB on the RANS V2 too high, while others
will find the upright seating position on the GRR to be uncomfortable
on longer rides. The potential purchaser will be better off choosing
the bike that offers the preferred riding position and/or handling
qualities. That being said, the significantly lower price of the V2
Formula is certainly an important factor for all but upper middle class
and upper class buyers. Both Easy Racers and RANS have excellent
reputations for quality and customer service, so that will generally be
a decisive factor.
In short, the best purchase decision will be the bike the rider
subjectively likes best.
The Rotator Pursuit [3] also deserves mention as a high quality, high
performance LWB competitor to the GRR and V2 Formula. (An historic
aside, prior to the introduction of the Ti-GRR which is built by
Rotator, the aluminium alloy GRR frames were built by Rotator).
[1] <http://www.easyracers.com/gold_rush.htm >.
[2] <http://www.ransbikes.com/formula.htm >.
[3] <http://rotatorrecumbent.com/pursuit.html >.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels
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Date: 08 Dec 2005 22:08:44
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
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"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1134097168.386836.38190@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
[...]
> However, the inherent performance advantage of either bicycle is likely
> to be outweighed by the influence of rider comfort on performance. Some
> will find the medium height BB on the RANS V2 too high, while others
> will find the upright seating position on the GRR to be uncomfortable
> on longer rides. The potential purchaser will be better off choosing
> the bike that offers the preferred riding position and/or handling
> qualities.
[...]
The above is the one thing that you cannot change on a recumbent, i.e., the
relationship of the seat to the crank. I have often thought that the optimum
for this arrangement is to have the crank only slightly below the seat, as
in the RANS Tailwind and the new Bacchetta Agio. The crank appears to be
only several inches lower than the seat in both of the above cases. This is
also a powerful pedaling position. The only thing against it is that it is
not very aerodynamic.
I think that RANS V2 has slightly too high a crank, but still not bad, and
that the GRR has too low a crank. I have the RANS V2 and it is always a bit
of a learning experience to get back on it after having been on my homemade
Tour Easy with the low crank. As you can see from this, I am strictly a long
wheelbase kind of recumbent guy.
By the way, have there been any reports around on the new Bacchetta Agio? It
is not a high end recumbent, but it looks like a very nice design with
acceptable components - and not too pricey. I think it would handle very
easily and be plenty fast enough. I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.
Regards,
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 19 Dec 2005 20:55:28
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: V2 Formula vs GRR
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1134964401.995359.158530@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >...
> >> > The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
> >> > sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
> >> > corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
> >> > aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
> >> > thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
> >> > cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
> >> > a certain cachet through keting [1], and therefore is used in many
> >> > products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
> >>
> >> Anyone who buys an expensive bicycle made from esoteric tubing has more
> >> money than brains. What else is new?
> >
> > 4130 "Cro-moly" steel is a good compromise between material cost, ease
> > of fabrication and weight. That is why many mid-level bicycles (and
> > most steel frame recumbents) are made from 4130 steel.
>
> Agreed!
I should mention that titanium/titanium alloy may be a very poor choice
in some applications. Since titanium/titanium alloy is weaker than high
strength steel, a greater cross-section and/or moment of inertia is
needed to provide equivalent strength and/or stiffness. Where the size
of the part is constrained, e.g. pedal spindles and square taper bottom
bracket (BB) spindles, titanium will not provide adequate durability
for long term use [1]. Not only is the use of titanium/titanium alloy
not cost effective in these situations, it may be considered dangerous,
since breakage of a pedal or BB spindle usually leads to loss of
control on an upright bicycle (likely less so, but still possible on a
recumbent).
Even with frames, the use of titanium/titanium alloy is no guarantee of
longer life. Indeed, in some tests titanium alloy frames failed before
aluminium alloy frames:
<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm >. [2]
As usual, proper engineering and manufacturing are more important than
the actual material used. If anyone tries to sell titanium/titanium
alloy as a "magic" material, they are either "blowing smoke" or lack
fundamental understanding of materials science and engineering.
[1] Contrary to myth, titanium and titanium alloy have endurance limits
[3] above which they will fatigue.
[2] It should be noted that there is controversy as to how well these
tests relate to typical riding induced fatigue.
[3] Endurance and fatigue limits listed in material property table have
been determined on relatively uniform specimens. Most titanium bicycles
parts will have stress risers from forming or machining, while frames
will also have stress risers from unavoidable micro-defects in the
welds. These parts will not achieve the lifespan predicted by the
fatigue tests.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
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