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Main
Date: 21 Aug 2006 10:52:55
From:
Subject: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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What "features" in your mind make the perfect loaded
touring bike?
Is it upright or recumbent?
Converted mt bike?
Steel? Ti?
Does it fold? Or not fold?
Bottom line.... I'm wanting to take my first ever bike
tour next summer. I plan to spend the winter
researching and acquiring equipment
Recumbents look appealing to me since I'm 48 and things
"hurt" more than in past.... but have never had one and
"just don't know".
So....what YOU think makes good touring bike feature
wise?
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 20:22:49
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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Good points, Peter, thanks for posting.
However, if I had only had the courage to try a recumbent 30 years ago,
I'd have gotten one then. There is no reason to wait till anything
hurts to run a recumbent or trike. It's a very weird place to end up
and, these days, I don't bother with the evangelism; upright bicycle
riders just don't get it (anymore than PC users can understand why I
use Macintosh or chess players understand why I play go) so I've
stopped trying to explain it. "How's that thing on hills?" "I get
there. Wait for me at the top, I'll race you down the other side."
A recumbent is a lot of things but for me it's all about comfort; life
is about comfort these days. At the end of a long day's ride, I'm as
tired as anyone else on the tour but nothing on my body hurts.
New site you might try:
http://bicycletouring101.com/index.html
Peter Clinch wrote:
> me@privacy.net wrote:
> > bogiesan@mac.com wrote:
> >> There is no question: the only way to see America by bike is feet
> >> first.
> >
> > How come? Can you explain? Just easier on 48 year old
> > body?
>
> An upright will do the job the too, but most serious upright
> touring bikes tend to put you in some degree of crouch for
> aerodynamics. While improving efficiency it gives you a default
> view of the tarmac a few meters in front of the bike: you have to
> make a conscious effort to look up to see around you. On a 'bent
> the natural default view is straight ahead, not ahead and down, so
> you'll /see/ America better. Unless there's a wall or hedge at the
> level where a wedgie rider can see over and you can't, of course,
> but IME those are much less common than a lot of folk suppose.
> Also the case that IME one can take in scenery better in relaxed
> comfort.
> Pete.
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Date: 05 Sep 2006 20:39:45
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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me@privacy.net wrote:
> What "features" in your mind make the perfect loaded
> touring bike?
Are you going self-contained, credit card, or supported?
Trailer or panniers?
A good bike for self-supported touring can be used for all three types
of touring. It's possible to tour on ANY bike. But not all bikes can
handle rider plus gear without collapsing under the strain.
Adventure Cycling has a great set of articles on how to pick a touring
bike. There are several books at yout library or at Barnes and Noble.
> Is it upright or recumbent?
There is no question: the only way to see America by bike is feet
first. But consider trikes, too.
> Steel? Ti?
Aluminum or carbon? Take your pick and throw money at it. You can spend
$500 or $15,000 on a recumbent. Steel can be repaired anywhere on earth
but today's ti and aluminum bikes rarely break. It's a roll of the
dice.
> So....what YOU think makes good touring bike feature
> wise?
The bike is only one part of the package. The other gear you carry will
be really important. Outdoor magazines and backpacking web sites have
tons of reviews and endless advice for buying camping and traveling
gear but, if you're going self-supported, I urge you to investigate
ultralight backpacking practices. It's a religion. You can be safe,
warm and dry with less than 60% of what you think you need to carry
when touring on a bike. when I was backpacking, I went from slogging
45-60 pounds to carrying less than 20 pounds and I had a great time.
If you calculate the TOTAL weight you are moving around, going
ultralight will make a significant dent in your mass. Tools, water,
food, clothing, spares, munchies, your mass, furniture, toys and junk
.... it adds up quickly.
david boise ID
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 08:16:48
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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bogiesan@mac.com wrote:
>
>me@privacy.net wrote:
>Are you going self-contained, credit card, or supported?
Probably all three in time
>Trailer or panniers?
I've been told panniers are easier
>> Is it upright or recumbent?
>
>There is no question: the only way to see America by bike is feet
>first.
How come? Can you explain? Just easier on 48 year old
body?
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 19:00:45
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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me@privacy.net wrote:
> bogiesan@mac.com wrote:
>> Trailer or panniers?
>
> I've been told panniers are easier
Depends on the load. For light loads panniers are easier, for big
loads trailers are usually better as they affect handling less and
are much easier to load. There's a grey area somewhere between the
two...
>>> Is it upright or recumbent?
>> There is no question: the only way to see America by bike is feet
>> first.
>
> How come? Can you explain? Just easier on 48 year old
> body?
An upright will do the job the too, but most serious upright
touring bikes tend to put you in some degree of crouch for
aerodynamics. While improving efficiency it gives you a default
view of the tarmac a few meters in front of the bike: you have to
make a conscious effort to look up to see around you. On a 'bent
the natural default view is straight ahead, not ahead and down, so
you'll /see/ America better. Unless there's a wall or hedge at the
level where a wedgie rider can see over and you can't, of course,
but IME those are much less common than a lot of folk suppose.
Also the case that IME one can take in scenery better in relaxed
comfort.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 15:29:49
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>An upright will do the job the too, but most serious upright
>touring bikes tend to put you in some degree of crouch for
>aerodynamics. While improving efficiency it gives you a default
>view of the tarmac a few meters in front of the bike: you have to
>make a conscious effort to look up to see around you. On a 'bent
>the natural default view is straight ahead, not ahead and down,
Great point Id never thought abt!!
Tell me.... what would you use on a bent tho.....
panniers or a trailer only?
IOW...aren't you really limited to just a trailer on a
bent?
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 22:25:20
From: Zebee Johnstone
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on Wed, 06 Sep 2006 15:29:49 -0500
me@privacy.net <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>
> Tell me.... what would you use on a bent tho.....
> panniers or a trailer only?
>
> IOW...aren't you really limited to just a trailer on a
> bent?
Depends on the bent.
I use panniers every day on my Giro 20 as I commute to work and my
work clothes are in the panniers. I use a set of cheap Tiogas that
take about 40l the pair. I could put bigger normal ones on without
problems.
I could also add an underseat rack and put either front panniers on
that, or else the special recumbent ones that can carry a fair old
load.
If I was going touring I'd prefer a trike :) And probably tow a
trailer if I needed to add camping gear rather than have just a couple
of changes of clothes.
(I'd prefer the trike because they don't care how slow you go and I'm
terrible up hills...)
Zebee
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 21:39:33
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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me@privacy.net wrote:
> Tell me.... what would you use on a bent tho.....
> panniers or a trailer only?
>
> IOW...aren't you really limited to just a trailer on a
> bent?
Very much depends on the model. If you look at
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tourdunord.htm you'll
see our touring 'bents loaded up with panniers. Mine takes 4, my
Other Half's only takes two but with Radical 'bent specific
panniers she can get a lot of gear in (those are "Mediums" at 55
litres the pair, "Large" are 70 litres the pair, but they only
really work in pairs).
So, obviously I use panniers... My bike is particularly good when
loaded because you can get the real weight between the wheels under
the rider, so handling is very little affected, but if you have to
mount everything behind you (which you will in many cases) then a
trailer will start to look like an increasingly good option. Again
the case that the bigger the load, the better a trailer is.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 13:49:33
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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Where do you live? There might be someone/place nearby that can help
you.
Enjoy,
Perry Butler
me@privacy.net wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Why limit yourself to bicycles? A trike [1] offers the advantages of
>
> Well I'm not
>
> Just no little abt them
>
> Wish I was near somewhere that had ALL these bikes that
> a person could rent for awhile and try
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 16:19:01
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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perryb67@yahoo.com wrote:
>Where do you live? There might be someone/place nearby that can help
>you.
Hannibal Missouri
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 13:47:17
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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DougC wrote:
> me@privacy.net wrote:
........if you take a northern route you can see Winsonsin (I'm told is
> nice) but you risk getting lost in Minnesota, a vast loathesome bog
> withering in decay and filth.
Actually Minnesota is quite nice if you avoid the southwest corner.
It's rumored an extremely insufferable ogre lives there.
Enjoy,
Perry Butler
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 01:48:54
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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<perryb67@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1156279637.931668.318270@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> DougC wrote:
>> me@privacy.net wrote:
> ........if you take a northern route you can see Winsonsin (I'm told is
>
>> nice) but you risk getting lost in Minnesota, a vast loathesome bog
>> withering in decay and filth.
>
> Actually Minnesota is quite nice if you avoid the southwest corner.
> It's rumored an extremely insufferable ogre lives there.
You mainly want to stay away from the Alexandria vicinity. This is strictly
a second class resort area where they will charge you an arm and a leg to
fishing in their miserable lakes. Besides, that is the home of Perry Butler
and he will want to take you out on that ratty bike trail they have there.
It starts from nowhere and it goes nowhere, but that is pretty typical of
all the bike trails in Minnesota.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 09:10:14
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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me@privacy.net wrote:
> What "features" in your mind make the perfect loaded
> touring bike?
>
> Is it upright or recumbent?
In itself this is a non-issue. You can have uprights and recumbents
that make great tourers and uprights and recumbents that make hopeless
tourers. Take each design on its individual merits.
> Converted mt bike?
If you have a MTB you really like and are going over a lot of rough
stuff then it makes some sense, but otherwise not particularly better
than other options, especially on the roads.
> Steel? Ti?
Again, look at the whole package rather than the frame material. Beyond
that, Ti is lighter, steel can be fixed in the back-end of Mongolia by
the local blacksmith. Steel gives you a lot more budget on other factors.
> Does it fold? Or not fold?
Mine doesn't, it could be very handy if it did. Note that "folding" and
"separable" are different things, but either could be really useful
taking the bike overseas. Separable probably more so than folding, in fact.
> Bottom line.... I'm wanting to take my first ever bike
> tour next summer. I plan to spend the winter
> researching and acquiring equipment
>
> Recumbents look appealing to me since I'm 48 and things
> "hurt" more than in past.... but have never had one and
> "just don't know".
My tourer is a recumbent, an HP Velotechnik Streetmachine GT. My wife
rides a Nazca Fiero Tour. You can see a bit more about a "real tour" at
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tourdunord.htm
> So....what YOU think makes good touring bike feature
> wise?
It needs to have all-day comfort (I find a recumbent better for that).
It needs to take luggage well without affecting the handling (my
particular recumbent does that better than any upright tourer I've come
across, but it's designed as a tourer and many 'bents don't share that
feature).
It needs to be fixable. While recumbents look very different they tend
to use common parts, especially stuff that goes wrong (broken spokes,
transmissions and brakes).
It has to suit your own riding style. Mine works for me, a speed demon
would be better off with something quite a bit lighter than mine.
I wouldn't swap my Streetmachine for any other tourer I've seen for the
sort of laden touring I want it for. For faster tours with less kit I'd
look at different options though (possibly ther Speedmachine from the
same manufacturer).
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 09:33:19
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>> Is it upright or recumbent?
>
>In itself this is a non-issue. You can have uprights and recumbents
>that make great tourers and uprights and recumbents that make hopeless
>tourers. Take each design on its individual merits.
Point taken.... but at age 48 things "hurt" on me
anymore
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 20:39:53
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
me@privacy.net wrote:
> What "features" in your mind make the perfect loaded
> touring bike?
>
> Is it upright or recumbent?
>
> Converted mt bike?
>
> Steel? Ti?
>
> Does it fold? Or not fold?
>
> Bottom line.... I'm wanting to take my first ever bike
> tour next summer. I plan to spend the winter
> researching and acquiring equipment
>
> Recumbents look appealing to me since I'm 48 and things
> "hurt" more than in past.... but have never had one and
> "just don't know".
>
> So....what YOU think makes good touring bike feature
> wise?
Why limit yourself to bicycles? A trike [1] offers the advantages of
not needing to balance a heavy load at low speed and/or while at rest
or on slippery/loose surfaces. With a headrest and parking brake, the
trike also works as an excellent lawn chair. I find that I can look
around much more while on a trike, since road hazards that could cause
a fall on a bicycle are generally of little concern on a trike.
[1] E.g.
<http://www.greenspeed.com.au/NewGSweb/web-content/australia/models/imagtrike/gte.html >.
--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 09:31:10
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Why limit yourself to bicycles? A trike [1] offers the advantages of
Well I'm not
Just no little abt them
Wish I was near somewhere that had ALL these bikes that
a person could rent for awhile and try
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 20:29:05
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
DougC wrote:
> ...
> I don't see many bike tourists where I live, because I'm in the
> US-midwest where the weather sucks and there's nothing to see (from
> Denver CO to at least Indiana, there is nothing notable along route 40).
That is utterly false. There are plenty of bean fields interspersed
between the corn fields, and occasional hog farms to provide a
refreshing rural aroma.
> If you take a southern route you get heat, illegals and patriots in
> pursuit; if you take a northern route you can see Wi[sc]onsin (I'm told is
> nice)...
BEWARE OF THE FRIESIANS AKA HOLSTEINS! ;)
> but you risk getting lost in Minnesota, a vast loathesome bog
> withering in decay and filth.
I thought that was limited to a particular address near downtown
Worthington.
> I have visited the Oregon coast recently, I saw a lot of people on
> loaded bikes, mostly uprights but two recumbents (looked like a R[ANS]
> [S]tratus and [R]ocket). This area was fairly hilly which would seem to
> discourage recumbent riding, but then again--I didn't see /anybody/
> moving fast.
--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 01:41:32
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1156217345.239491.234440@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> DougC wrote:
>> ...
>> I don't see many bike tourists where I live, because I'm in the
>> US-midwest where the weather sucks and there's nothing to see (from
>> Denver CO to at least Indiana, there is nothing notable along route 40).
>
> That is utterly false. There are plenty of bean fields interspersed
> between the corn fields, and occasional hog farms to provide a
> refreshing rural aroma.
>
>> If you take a southern route you get heat, illegals and patriots in
>> pursuit; if you take a northern route you can see Wi[sc]onsin (I'm told
>> is
>> nice)...
>
> BEWARE OF THE FRIESIANS AKA HOLSTEINS! ;)
>
>> but you risk getting lost in Minnesota, a vast loathesome bog
>> withering in decay and filth.
>
> I thought that was limited to a particular address near downtown
> Worthington.
The vast loathsome bogs of Minnesota are located in the far northern reaches
of the state. But I rather like those bogs myself. You can slog about them
all day long and never encounter another living soul.
Here on the high prairie of southern Minnesota you have the confounded wind
to contend with. It blows eternally at around 25 mph and makes you wish you
were dead. I have come back from many a bike ride cussing and swearing a
blue streak at it. It takes all the fun out of cycling.
But even so, these flat lands of the Midwest are going to be as populated as
thick as India someday in the not so distant future. We should strive to
enjoy all this emptiness while we can.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 14:48:04
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
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me@privacy.net wrote:
> john@hopkinsit.com wrote:
>
> >I'm 44 and I know what you mean about things hurting more - for me it's
> >mostly neck, elbows, hands and wrists. I no longer ride an upright
> >bike for more than ~ 20 miles a day, though riding my fixie is so much
> >fun I may extend that a little. On the other hand, I'm happy riding my
> >SWB recumbent 100+ miles, which for me is pretty much an all-day
> >affair. The only thing that hurts when I get off the 'bent is my legs,
> >if it's been an expecially hilly ride (here in the Seattle are, they
> >mostly are). Why don't you drop over to www.bentrideronline.com and
> >ask about touring via recumbent? You'll find a wealth of information.
>
> OK
>
> What's your opinion of the Bike Friday folding bents
> such as Sat R Day model?
The new SatRDay looks sweet to me. I'm not a fan of 16" wheels as on
the old model - they seem to work fine, but I can't bring myself to
like their looks. I ride a dual-20" SWB, so the new model looks fine
to me. Larry Varney reviewed it a few months back, seemed to like it
pretty well. Have you test-ridden any 'bents yet?
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 09:26:48
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
john@hopkinsit.com wrote:
>Have you test-ridden any 'bents yet?
None..... not a one
I live in a very small town and no where to test ride
one for hundreds of miles
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 20:34:19
From: Zebee Johnstone
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
In alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent on Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:26:48 -0500
me@privacy.net <me@privacy.net > wrote:
> john@hopkinsit.com wrote:
>
>>Have you test-ridden any 'bents yet?
>
> None..... not a one
>
> I live in a very small town and no where to test ride
> one for hundreds of miles
So start finding all the recumbent mailing list and forums. Start
with www.bentrideronline.com message board. Ask there for people who
own bents in your area who might be willing to let you have a try.
After all, all that can happen is you don't get a bite.
Zebee
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 12:36:47
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
me@privacy.net wrote:
> What "features" in your mind make the perfect loaded
> touring bike?
>
> Is it upright or recumbent?
>
> Converted mt bike?
>
> Steel? Ti?
>
> Does it fold? Or not fold?
>
> Bottom line.... I'm wanting to take my first ever bike
> tour next summer. I plan to spend the winter
> researching and acquiring equipment
>
> Recumbents look appealing to me since I'm 48 and things
> "hurt" more than in past.... but have never had one and
> "just don't know".
>
> So....what YOU think makes good touring bike feature
> wise?
I'm 44 and I know what you mean about things hurting more - for me it's
mostly neck, elbows, hands and wrists. I no longer ride an upright
bike for more than ~ 20 miles a day, though riding my fixie is so much
fun I may extend that a little. On the other hand, I'm happy riding my
SWB recumbent 100+ miles, which for me is pretty much an all-day
affair. The only thing that hurts when I get off the 'bent is my legs,
if it's been an expecially hilly ride (here in the Seattle are, they
mostly are). Why don't you drop over to www.bentrideronline.com and
ask about touring via recumbent? You'll find a wealth of information.
HTH,
John
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 16:20:58
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
john@hopkinsit.com wrote:
>I'm 44 and I know what you mean about things hurting more - for me it's
>mostly neck, elbows, hands and wrists. I no longer ride an upright
>bike for more than ~ 20 miles a day, though riding my fixie is so much
>fun I may extend that a little. On the other hand, I'm happy riding my
>SWB recumbent 100+ miles, which for me is pretty much an all-day
>affair. The only thing that hurts when I get off the 'bent is my legs,
>if it's been an expecially hilly ride (here in the Seattle are, they
>mostly are). Why don't you drop over to www.bentrideronline.com and
>ask about touring via recumbent? You'll find a wealth of information.
OK
What's your opinion of the Bike Friday folding bents
such as Sat R Day model?
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 19:24:43
From: DougC
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
me@privacy.net wrote:
> john@hopkinsit.com wrote:
>
> What's your opinion of the Bike Friday folding bents
> such as Sat R Day model?
It's nice, if you need a /folding/ bike. If you don't need a folding
bike, then it's way too expensive. It costs nearly $3000, when there's a
number of decent bents, any one of which you can get for less than half
that. ...If you need a folding bent--there's not a lot of choices, and
none of them are inexpensive.
,,,,,
For touring--it has racks, so that's not a problem. It also has
same-size wheels which is nice, only need to carry one size of spare.
But then if you get a bike that uses 20" or 26" wheels, those sizes of
tires and tubes aren't hard to find anyway.
-------
I don't own any upright bikes now.
I haven't done any bike touring yet-but I can't imagine how an upright
could be anywhere near as comfortable as a recumbent would. I am firmly
convinced that those who say they can be, are either liars or fools.
I don't see many bike tourists where I live, because I'm in the
US-midwest where the weather sucks and there's nothing to see (from
Denver CO to at least Indiana, there is nothing notable along route 40).
If you take a southern route you get heat, illegals and patriots in
pursuit; if you take a northern route you can see Winsonsin (I'm told is
nice) but you risk getting lost in Minnesota, a vast loathesome bog
withering in decay and filth.
I have visited the Oregon coast recently, I saw a lot of people on
loaded bikes, mostly uprights but two recumbents (looked like a Rans
stratus and rocket). This area was fairly hilly which would seem to
discourage recumbent riding, but then again--I didn't see /anybody/
moving fast.
-end-
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Date: 22 Aug 2006 09:29:37
From:
Subject: Re: What in your mind makes perfect loaded touring bike?
|
DougC <dcimper@norcom2000.com > wrote:
>It's nice, if you need a /folding/ bike. If you don't need a folding
>bike, then it's way too expensive.
Understood
>I don't own any upright bikes now.
>I haven't done any bike touring yet-but I can't imagine how an upright
>could be anywhere near as comfortable as a recumbent would. I am firmly
>convinced that those who say they can be, are either liars or fools.
Point taken
>I don't see many bike tourists where I live, because I'm in the
>US-midwest where the weather sucks and there's nothing to see (from
>Denver CO to at least Indiana, there is
Hahaha! I'm in Hannibal Missouri... right in Midwest
and agree!!
Where you live?
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