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Main
Date: 04 May 2005 09:22:40
From: Ohio Jerry
Subject: Whither Pedal Steer
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I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
or doesn't have.
Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
hard on the pedals?
Or what?
Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
Thanks.
Jerry
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Date: 16 Jun 2005 15:31:50
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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Posting properly, lets see the last I knew a Google Groups is a free
service which helps groups of people communicate effectively by using
EMAIL and the Web. Nowhere does it say I have to post like you.
So at this point as far as I'm concerned I'm not fighting with an
Idiot, I'm not lowering my standards to yours anymore, and you said it
yourself, ARBR, like all newsgroups, is priily for
idiots. So one last question Why are you here?
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Date: 17 Jun 2005 17:54:19
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118961110.373381.323970@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Posting properly, lets see the last I knew a Google Groups is a free
> service which helps groups of people communicate effectively by using
> EMAIL and the Web. Nowhere does it say I have to post like you.
In order to communicate effectively you have to follow certain rules.
Otherwise the communication is ineffective and you end up squabbling with
people like me.
> So at this point as far as I'm concerned I'm not fighting with an
> Idiot, I'm not lowering my standards to yours anymore, and you said it
> yourself, ARBR, like all newsgroups, is priily for
> idiots. So one last question Why are you here?
Newsgroups are PRIILY for idiots, but there are a few intelligent souls
to be found. I am one of them of course and I occasionally find another
kindred sprit. That alone makes it worthwhile.
I hope you can find someone like yourself who disdains all the rules.
People, like water, need to find their own level.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 14 Jun 2005 19:04:07
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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Funny you should talk about Newsgroups, you know that your not allowed
to post to a News group from AOL anymore, seems that they don't
approve of these places, and people like you, I had this group saved to
my favorite plases and they removed it, I wonder why.
I know you are what's considered to be a troll, a problem child so to
speak. Any thread you post to means Trouble, your not interesting and
the things you say are not interesting, and your not as st as you
might think. You abuse the right to be here and you abuse the people
that are here.
The real reason you are here on Google is because they have no control
over there groups unlike AOL or Yahoo and others where you would be
banned and not be able to cause trouble, but you see your running into
a little problem. Seems like there are fewer and fewer people here all
the time. Since May 7th there has only two others that have posted to
this thread and I have checked other threads and found the same,not
many people left to amuse anymore, what then, guess you will have to
amuse yourself.
I guess I could go on, hell I could write a book about people like you
but it would be a waste of time and print as it is to talk to you.
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Date: 15 Jun 2005 02:27:25
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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Nope! Ric will never post properly. He does not care about anyone else in
the world except himself and he proves it by his manner of posting. It is
not WHAT he says (substance), but HOW he says it (form). He consistently top
posts and he does not included any of the previous message to which he is
responding. He thinks FORM is unimportant, not realizing it is as important
as the SUBSTANCE. In short, he is not worth bothering with - and so I won't!
"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118801047.082122.47930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Funny you should talk about Newsgroups, you know that your not allowed
> to post to a News group from AOL anymore, seems that they don't
> approve of these places, and people like you, I had this group saved to
> my favorite plases and they removed it, I wonder why.
AOL is for neophytes who do not have the intelligence to figure out the
Internet.
> I know you are what's considered to be a troll, a problem child so to
> speak. Any thread you post to means Trouble, your not interesting and
> the things you say are not interesting, and your not as st as you
> might think. You abuse the right to be here and you abuse the people
> that are here.
You abuse everyone on this group every time you post improperly. I show
respect for everyone by posting properly. I observe the rules and the
etiquette of newsgroup posting. You don't! That is the difference between
us.
> The real reason you are here on Google is because they have no control
> over there groups unlike AOL or Yahoo and others where you would be
> banned and not be able to cause trouble, but you see your running into
> a little problem. Seems like there are fewer and fewer people here all
> the time. Since May 7th there has only two others that have posted to
> this thread and I have checked other threads and found the same,not
> many people left to amuse anymore, what then, guess you will have to
> amuse yourself.
This group, ARBR, was taken down by a single criminal vandal troll whose
first name happened to be the same as mine. None of the long time
participants on this group saw fit to defend the group against this criminal
troll. They turned out to be cowards and had no loyalty to the group. So I
proclaimed the group dead - and so it has been. Nothing can save a group if
it won't defend itself when it comes under attack. Cowards like ARBR proved
itself to be do not deserve to have their own group.
I have nothing against moderated forums, which is what you are taking about.
I favor them because a good moderator will not let criminal scum take the
group down. I would know how to post to a moderated forum because I know how
to observe the rules and conduct myself like a gentleman. You, however,
would have a problem on a moderated forum the same as you do here. That is
because you do not observe proper form. You should restrict yourself to
email. You are not ready for the world yet.
> I guess I could go on, hell I could write a book about people like you
> but it would be a waste of time and print as it is to talk to you.
Yup - it's my way or the highway. The world is full of your types. Post
properly and you will find me here for you. Post like you have been and I
will treat you like you deserve to be treated - with contempt.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
PS. If anyone with any brains is still on this group, note how I respond to
every paragraph covering the pertinent points. Also, note how Ric does not
respond to anything I say. Like all top posters, he is only talking to
himself and for himself. I am fed up with the self absorbed who only
contemplate their own navels. ARBR, like all newsgroups, is priily for
idiots and Ric proves it every time he posts.
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Date: 14 Jun 2005 05:20:52
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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I'll stick by my statement that pedal steer is 90% Driver error, and
some people never do seem to allow enough.
Direct steering on a delta is the only thing that makes any sense
because you are only directing a single wheel, but if it works for one
why not two it only makes sense. I believe that manufactures use the
direct steering to keep down cost and make their trikes more affordable
so more people can enjoy riding a trike without spending 4 to 5
thousand on a expensive toy, and I also believe thats all that's needed
on a single.
Let me ask you, if you like Bicycles so much why did you by a delta,
and the last I heard BI means two not three and owning a Delta you have
three { TRIKE } and please lets stay away from the four letter words .
I'm not trying to decide any matters I' just giving an opinon to Ohio
Jerry. Lets see we have 67 post on this subject before mine and Thirty
plus are from you, so who's trying to decide matters here.
As far as myself posting right - well the last I looked, Google is not
a message board or a forum and as you said Who are you too decide these
matters.
Ed Dolan the Great my god I'll bet your arms are sore.
Ric
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Date: 14 Jun 2005 18:49:02
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118751652.478107.19240@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ric and I should be sending emails to one another since he top posts and
does not include any of my message to which he is responding. Very funny how
some think a newsgroup is like email. He is writng only to me; I am writing
to the world. That is the idifference between email and a newsgroup for
those of you who cannot add 2 and 2 and get 4.
[...]
> Direct steering on a delta is the only thing that makes any sense
> because you are only directing a single wheel, but if it works for one
> why not two it only makes sense. I believe that manufactures use the
> direct steering to keep down cost and make their trikes more affordable
> so more people can enjoy riding a trike without spending 4 to 5
> thousand on a expensive toy, and I also believe thats all that's needed
> on a single.\
Agreed. However, having to steer two wheels instead of just one is a major
complication. It has the effect of getting away from the simplicity of a
bike.
> Let me ask you, if you like Bicycles so much why did you by a delta,
> and the last I heard BI means two not three and owning a Delta you have
> three { TRIKE } and please lets stay away from the four letter words .
I refer to anything that you have to pedal as a bike, regardless of how many
wheels it has. However, if it has four wheels and/or two wheels up front it
is less a BIKE and more a go-cart. I have already told you what I think of
go-carts. I think you like tadpoles because they steer like something on
four wheels; I like deltas because they steer like something on two wheels.
> I'm not trying to decide any matters I' just giving an opinon to Ohio
> Jerry. Lets see we have 67 post on this subject before mine and Thirty
> plus are from you, so who's trying to decide matters here.
Any thread I post to will just naturally grow and grow. That is because I
have the knack of saying interesting things in interesting ways. I mean to
entertain and amuse. How about you?
> As far as myself posting right - well the last I looked, Google is not
> a message board or a forum and as you said Who are you too decide these
> matters.
There is only one right way to post to a newsgroup and you violate it every
time you post. Top posting is for jerks and anyone who does not include the
previous message to which he is responding (it can be edited for relevance
and clarity, but it cannot be omitted) is an even bigger jerk. I am not
going to bother to educate you about any of this because I have better
things to do, but why not look up the etiquette for proper posting to a
newsgroup. I believe Google will have lots to say about how you should post.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 13 Jun 2005 04:59:51
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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Well, I guess if you have had all of the above checked as you say, I
must be correct in my statement that pedal steer is 90% Driver error.
At the time we tested the TT it was so heavy it couldn't get out of its
own way, definitely not a speed trike, so the steering really didn't
make a difference. And as far as direct steering goes, My Hotmover and
Catrike both have direct and both handle very well and please correct
if I'm wrong but most deltas I've seen also have direct unless you ride
the EZ-3.
I ride my Trikes on the Hwy. most of the time, and in anywhere from 4
to 6 lanes of traffic and my avg. speeds runs about 20 mph and my top
on Hwy. 19 was 31 mph, that was on the Catrike. I have seen 48 mph on
hills and never felt uneasy on any of my trikes and cornering at 15 to
20 mph is a blast, it's like being on a go-cart, brings back the kid
inside ya.
As far as me not including all of your statements and wondering if I
understand the concept of fair play or not, I really don't see the
benefit in retyping all of them, I really don't think people want to
read your statements or mine again and besides it's a waste of time and
space.
Your last statement I really like, Having too explain to someone how
to ride or drive a tadpole trike means you are compensating for an
inferior design, WOW
I guess when I was 16 yrs old and in high school taking drivers
education they were compensating for an inferior design of the car.
Everyone needs a teacher, no matter what your age or IQ.
Hey Jerry,if your still with us and you listen to Eds statement about
speeds I guess will have to nickname you grandpa. have fun on your
trike.
Thank God for or Schools and Teachers.
Ric
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Date: 14 Jun 2005 00:12:24
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118663991.347836.149590@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Well, I guess if you have had all of the above checked as you say, I
> must be correct in my statement that pedal steer is 90% Driver error.
I have allowed for some driver error, but tadpoles have inherent pedal
steer.
> At the time we tested the TT it was so heavy it couldn't get out of its
> own way, definitely not a speed trike, so the steering really didn't
> make a difference. And as far as direct steering goes, My Hotmover and
> Catrike both have direct and both handle very well and please correct
> if I'm wrong but most deltas I've seen also have direct unless you ride
> the EZ-3.
Direct steering on a delta is the only thing that makes any sense since you
are only directing a single wheel. Two wheels up front which need to be
steered is major complication and almost all tadpoles use some kind of
indirect steering to accomplish it.
> I ride my Trikes on the Hwy. most of the time, and in anywhere from 4
> to 6 lanes of traffic and my avg. speeds runs about 20 mph and my top
> on Hwy. 19 was 31 mph, that was on the Catrike. I have seen 48 mph on
> hills and never felt uneasy on any of my trikes and cornering at 15 to
> 20 mph is a blast, it's like being on a go-cart, brings back the kid
> inside ya.
I do not like go-carts and I have never liked the blame things. I like
bicycles which is what a delta gives you. It does not give you the damn
go-cart thing.
> As far as me not including all of your statements and wondering if I
> understand the concept of fair play or not, I really don't see the
> benefit in retyping all of them, I really don't think people want to
> read your statements or mine again and besides it's a waste of time and
> space.
Who the hell are you to decide these matters?
Since you do not post properly, I can no longer be bothered with you and
will not take anything you say seriously. I will treat you with the contempt
which you show to everyone else by not posting properly.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 11 Jun 2005 07:01:25
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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There are some other things involved in having and riding a trike,
such as having the correct toe-in adjustment and one of the biggest
problems that people have wrong with there trike is boom length and
maybe your right, the normal person doesn't know about these things but
there LBS should and if they don't they shouldn't be selling the
product. I stick by my statement that pedal steer is 90% Driver error.
Ok so lets look at what you are basing your opinion on. What we used
to call a Terror Trike. I test rode one of those way back before I
purchased my first trike and IMHO I wouldn't drive one of those around
the block, although I will admit they have come along way and they are
better now than they used to be.
The Delta Trike, Hey there are some fine deltas on the ket and I
have rode some of those and they are great if you don't like to ride
over 10 to12 mph or do any cornering. Lets face the facts, the delta
was not designed to be a performance trike like the Tadpole but they do
have there purpose and place.
What you said about pedal steer being an endemic to tadpoles and
cannot be gotten rid of is IMO ( BS ) and It is inherent to the
design, which you regard as an inferior design to the delta, Is also (
BS ) Oh and BTW it does not require abnormal skills to ride a trike,
but we won't go into the skill thing, we will save that for another
topic.
Hey Jerry glad you got your trike. Have a ball.
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Date: 12 Jun 2005 02:01:22
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118498485.012463.318590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sigh ... another top poster. ARBR seems to be just chock full of these types
lately.
> There are some other things involved in having and riding a trike,
> such as having the correct toe-in adjustment and one of the biggest
> problems that people have wrong with there trike is boom length and
> maybe your right, the normal person doesn't know about these things but
> there LBS should and if they don't they shouldn't be selling the
> product. I stick by my statement that pedal steer is 90% Driver error.
All of the above were carefully checked out. My trike looks to be a normal
tadpole trike as is my friend's Greenspeed.
> Ok so lets look at what you are basing your opinion on. What we used
> to call a Terror Trike. I test rode one of those way back before I
> purchased my first trike and IMHO I wouldn't drive one of those around
> the block, although I will admit they have come along way and they are
> better now than they used to be.
It probably had direct steering, a very bad idea in my not so humble
opinion.
> The Delta Trike, Hey there are some fine deltas on the ket and I
> have rode some of those and they are great if you don't like to ride
> over 10 to12 mph or do any cornering. Lets face the facts, the delta
> was not designed to be a performance trike like the Tadpole but they do
> have there purpose and place.
I do not corner at speed on ANY recumbent - ever! All trikes are made to go
at around 15 mph and 20 mph is top speed without gambling with your life.
Most deltas are too heavy I will admit, but a light delta is a joy forever.
> What you said about pedal steer being an endemic to tadpoles and
> cannot be gotten rid of is IMO ( BS ) and It is inherent to the
> design, which you regard as an inferior design to the delta, Is also (
> BS ) Oh and BTW it does not require abnormal skills to ride a trike,
> but we won't go into the skill thing, we will save that for another
> topic.
But I said it better than you. I do not understand why you do not include my
statements. Note how I am including all of your statements even though I
don't think much of them. I wonder if you even understand the concept of
fair play?
If you have to tell someone not to mash while pedaling and to lightly steer
or else the dreaded pedal steer will ensue, then you are compensating for an
inferior design. You do not have to tell folks BS like that when they get on
a delta.
> Hey Jerry glad you got your trike. Have a ball.
Yeah, but keep your speed down. Trikes are not road bikes.
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 10 Jun 2005 06:34:40
From: ric
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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I have been reading the post on this pedal steer issue, and I'd like to
say that anyone who says that all trikes have pedal steer does not know
how to ride a trike. It's a ridiculous statement.
If you want to find out what causes your problems, ( pedal steer ) put
your trike on rollers and I'd be willing to bet you can't keep the
trike strait without your hands on the bars and the brakes applied. So
what does that tell us.
90% of pedal steer issues are caused by driver error and not knowing
how to drive handle or ride a trike. The first thing the driver must do
is learn to RELAX and don't grab the handle bars as if it were a matter
of life and death. For most people that ride a trike every time they
push on a pedal they push with an arm and guess what, your steering the
trike and you get a back and forth motion, thus they say pedal steer
when in reality it's driver error.
I have three trikes a Greenspeed, Hotmover and a Catrike Speed, two of
which I have NO pedal steer and the Speed has been a little different
due to the 16" wheels and short bars, but after 250 miles, very little
pedal steer on it.
So Mr. Dolan For you to say all trikes have a pedal steer problem only
proves my point, you are apparently are in that 90% driver error.
Jerry go buy your Trike and have a blast.
Ric
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Date: 11 Jun 2005 02:44:53
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118410480.905848.103680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I have been reading the post on this pedal steer issue, and I'd like to
> say that anyone who says that all trikes have pedal steer does not know
> how to ride a trike. It's a ridiculous statement.
>
> If you want to find out what causes your problems, ( pedal steer ) put
> your trike on rollers and I'd be willing to bet you can't keep the
> trike strait without your hands on the bars and the brakes applied. So
> what does that tell us.
>
> 90% of pedal steer issues are caused by driver error and not knowing
> how to drive handle or ride a trike. The first thing the driver must do
> is learn to RELAX and don't grab the handle bars as if it were a matter
> of life and death. For most people that ride a trike every time they
> push on a pedal they push with an arm and guess what, your steering the
> trike and you get a back and forth motion, thus they say pedal steer
> when in reality it's driver error.
>
> I have three trikes a Greenspeed, Hotmover and a Catrike Speed, two of
> which I have NO pedal steer and the Speed has been a little different
> due to the 16" wheels and short bars, but after 250 miles, very little
> pedal steer on it.
>
> So Mr. Dolan For you to say all trikes have a pedal steer problem only
> proves my point, you are apparently are in that 90% driver error.
>
> Jerry go buy your Trike and have a blast.
>
> Ric
Ric is half-way to being right about rider error being some of the cause of
pedal steer. But there is more to it than that. I have had numerous cyclists
ride my tadpole (an early TerraTrike and my friend's Greenspeed) and they
all experience pedal steer immediately. Perhaps with enough experience the
pedal steer would lessen, but I don't believe it will ever go away entirely.
I do know that racers do not have this problem but that is because they are
very skillful riders. The rest of us mere mortals are not nearly so skillful
nor will we ever be. Therefore, I stand by my contention that pedal steer is
endemic to tadpoles and cannot be gotten rid of. It is inherent to the
design, which I regard as an inferior design to the delta. I for one refuse
to work on my normal skills so I can ride something which requires abnormal
skills.
Ed Dolan - Minnesota
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Date: 10 Jun 2005 16:15:30
From: Ohio Jerry
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"ric" <ricky_boyette@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1118410480.905848.103680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
= snip =
> Jerry go buy your Trike and have a blast.
>
> Ric
>
Bought my trike: having a blast.
Kept my Thunderbolt: also having a blast.
Sometimes I notice some pedal steer, but usually I can do something
to cause it to stop or lessen. Just don't ask me what, cuz I'm not
sure--maybe I'm reducing bad steering inputs or maybe putting
some in out of phase with the wig-wagging. I have to learn
better to do it sub-conciously.
If I have to think about how to walk, I'll fall down.
If I have to think about how to balance a bike, I'll fall over.
If I have to think about how to correct pedal steer, I'll probably
be making S-turns all over the road.
That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it (for now).
Jerry
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Date: 08 Jun 2005 19:56:08
From: 25hz
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Different tadpole designs can produce different amounts of pedal steer, so
can different riders with more or less sloppy pedalling style.
So, a few things that cause it:
1) weight is far enough forward that it is easy to slightly unweight the
rear wheel enough with hard and/or high rpm pedalling
2) too high of a cadence, and "too high" is individual to the rider on the
trike.
To fix #1, that's a design problem (depending on the rider size) and the
only fix is to slow down your cadence. The fix for #2 is the same - grab a
higher gear and slow down your cadence and/or practice spinning more
smoothly.
I build my trikes with adjustable seats, not booms, so pedal steer is not an
issue as the longest distance from the front wheel axles to the BB is ~18",
which can be much less than trikes with extending booms.
> I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
> reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
> or doesn't have.
>
> Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
> pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
> inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
> hard on the pedals?
>
> Or what?
>
> Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
>
> Thanks.
> Jerry
>
>
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Date: 09 Jun 2005 01:17:08
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"25hz" <25hz@rogers.com > wrote in message
news:K_idncRQLKoMGDrfRVn-3Q@rogers.com...
> Different tadpole designs can produce different amounts of pedal steer, so
> can different riders with more or less sloppy pedalling style.
> So, a few things that cause it:
> 1) weight is far enough forward that it is easy to slightly unweight the
> rear wheel enough with hard and/or high rpm pedalling
> 2) too high of a cadence, and "too high" is individual to the rider on the
> trike.
>
> To fix #1, that's a design problem (depending on the rider size) and the
> only fix is to slow down your cadence. The fix for #2 is the same - grab
> a
> higher gear and slow down your cadence and/or practice spinning more
> smoothly.
>
> I build my trikes with adjustable seats, not booms, so pedal steer is not
> an
> issue as the longest distance from the front wheel axles to the BB is
> ~18",
> which can be much less than trikes with extending booms.
25hz has put his finger on the problem all right, but why not have a trike
where all this fine tuning, whether of trike or rider, is not necessary - in
other words, a delta trike instead of a tadpole trike. A long wheel base
delta will solve the pedal steer problem as well as having many other
obvious advantages.
I am struck by all the shenanigans that tadpole designers have to go through
to come up with something that the average person can ride. Bikes and trikes
are fairly simple designs provided you keep them simple. When you start to
complicate them (like having to steer TWO wheels up front), you quickly run
into lots of problems.
A delta is truly still a bike, whereas a tadpole is halfway to being a
four-wheeler. I hate all complications when it comes to bikes. KISS (Keep It
Simple Stupid)!
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 07 May 2005 03:12:46
From:
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No
one,
> but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm
or less.
While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike in hilly
country, something you are not used to.
Enjoy,
Perry B
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Date: 07 May 2005 12:10:58
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
<perryb67@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1115460766.491084.276590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No
> one,
>> but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm
> or less.
>
> While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
> ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
> Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
> rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
> let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
> faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
> have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike in hilly
> country, something you are not used to.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Perry B
Perry is certainly right in that I do not have much experience of cycling in
hilly country. The little experience I do have has led me to hate it with a
passion, especially on recumbents which are notorious for being poor hill
climbers. Give me the flats of SW Minnesota any old day. But my ideal bike
tour would be from Fargo to Winnipeg, the flattest land in all creation. The
only thing rising above the eternal flats there are the over passes on the
Interstate highway. Yes, the Red River Valley of the North is even flatter
than fabled Florida.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | |
Date: 08 May 2005 00:43:13
From: nget
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
perryb67@yahoo.com Wrote:
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> > Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself
> No
> one,
> > but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm
> or less.
>
> While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
> ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
> Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
> rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
> let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
> faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
> have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike i
> hilly
> country, something you are not used to.
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Perry B
Those whose cranks are 155mm will naturally have higher cadance tha
the same person with 175mm.My cranks are the longer of the two and m
cadance will vary from time to time depending on which muscle groups
am using.
The first time I really pushed hard on my Terra trike 3.4 I was alarme
at the amount of pedal steer.I only saw this as an opportunity to lear
smoother spinning as it is not a show stopper.Each triker must know hi
or her own limits and ride at their own level of skill.
Enjoy it or not
--
nget
|
| | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 12:26:13
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"nget" <nget.1oo2ja@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote in message
news:nget.1oo2ja@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
>
> perryb67@yahoo.com Wrote:
>> Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>> > Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself.
>> No
>> one,
>> > but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm
>> or less.
>>
>> While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
>> ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
>> Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
>> rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
>> let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
>> faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
>> have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike in
>> hilly
>> country, something you are not used to.
>>
>> Enjoy,
>>
>> Perry B
>
> Those whose cranks are 155mm will naturally have higher cadance than
> the same person with 175mm.My cranks are the longer of the two and my
> cadance will vary from time to time depending on which muscle groups I
> am using.
> The first time I really pushed hard on my Terra trike 3.4 I was alarmed
> at the amount of pedal steer.I only saw this as an opportunity to learn
> smoother spinning as it is not a show stopper.Each triker must know his
> or her own limits and ride at their own level of skill.
Nget, I have several trikes including one of the early versions Terra Trike.
I think your version has been greatly improved from mine with respect to the
pedal steer problem. But I am so slow on all of my trikes that I find that I
am not riding them as much as I thought I would. I prefer to be a bit faster
which I can be on my two-wheeler recumbents. Darned if my fastest bike isn't
my home made Tour Easy with fairing that I have had almost from the
beginning. But truth to tell, I am never really fast no matter what I am
riding.
The thing about cadence is that you will do what seems natural for you. The
same applies to making smooth circles when pedaling. I have seen some that
are masters at this and others who aren't. I think I am in the middle
somewhere. Racers and those who really want to be fast will work on their
cadence and their spin. Most of the rest of us won't. We are basically just
cruisers.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| |
Date: 05 May 2005 23:25:09
From: LoGo USA
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Hey again gang -
Very often when I see one of these threads that begins with a guy
asking a valid question, and then quickly accumulates a rash of
almost directly contradictory responses, I have to hope that the
poor originator (as well as other lurkers who share his curiosity)
has enough discrimination, intuition and technical savvy to assess
the credibility of each reply.
While Mike assures us:
>The [Windcheetah] Supersport offers almost no noticeable pedal
>steer.
Mr. Dolan persists in insisting:
>The only folks I have seen who can ride a tadpole at speed are
>very skilled riders... Others are veering all over the road at
>speeds much above 20 mph.
To which I guess maybe I should simply respond, "Thankuh,
thankuh verra much." But my basic modesty forces me to protest
that although I easily meet that criterion of riding a tadpole
at speed without veering all over the road, it's not often that
I'm referred to as a "very skilled rider"; in fact I suspect
that it would be no trouble at all to find an opposing opinion
among those who ride with me fairly regularly.
When Mr. Dolan admits that:
>I do not notice pedal steer on any two-wheeler...
I'd suggest that he's mostly highlighting his rather critical
lack of perception. For example, take a look at this photo:
http://www.logo-us.com/pix/sprint.jpg
It's a static shot and it is of course possible that these
cyclists just happened to be in the same area but all going in
different directions; however it sure looks to me like those
bikers are very seriously compensating for pedal steer!
The other comment Ed made that I think may help quantify the
reliability of his observations about tadpoles is:
>I have an early version WizWheelz myself.
To which I would suggest: take a good look at a TerraTrike
model prior to V3.3 from the side. Notice that the angle of
the kingpin is virtually vertical. The priy problem for
high speed stability on these tadpoles has nothing to do
with pedal steer; it's that this design has very little (to
no) rake or trail. In fact most riders think they tend to be
pretty squirrely at speed even when the rider isn't pedaling.
And finally, to Ed's assertion:
>Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
I have to say: I'll believe that when I see a 65-year-old
who's never ridden one before hop on and go for a spin around
the block on his (or her) first try. On a tadpole, the biggest
challenge is usually getting clicked into the pedals...
Regards,
Wayne Leggett
|
| | |
Date: 06 May 2005 04:02:42
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"LoGo USA" <wayne@logo-us.com > wrote in message
news:1115360709.420438.204200@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hey again gang -
>
> Very often when I see one of these threads that begins with a guy
> asking a valid question, and then quickly accumulates a rash of
> almost directly contradictory responses, I have to hope that the
> poor originator (as well as other lurkers who share his curiosity)
> has enough discrimination, intuition and technical savvy to assess
> the credibility of each reply.
Mr. Leggett is a trikey. His observations will apply only if you are also a
trikey. If you are an ordinary mortal who just likes to occasionaly ride you
must listen to a wise person such as myself.
> While Mike assures us:
>
>>The [Windcheetah] Supersport offers almost no noticeable pedal
>>steer.
The Windcheetahs are notorius for pedal steer.
> Mr. Dolan persists in insisting:
>
>>The only folks I have seen who can ride a tadpole at speed are
>>very skilled riders... Others are veering all over the road at
>>speeds much above 20 mph.
>
> To which I guess maybe I should simply respond, "Thankuh,
> thankuh verra much." But my basic modesty forces me to protest
> that although I easily meet that criterion of riding a tadpole
> at speed without veering all over the road, it's not often that
> I'm referred to as a "very skilled rider"; in fact I suspect
> that it would be no trouble at all to find an opposing opinion
> among those who ride with me fairly regularly.
Every person with whom I am acquainted who has a tadpole trike (not many I
admit) experience exactly the same difficulty with them that I do - pedal
steer. When you let friends ride your tadpole, they invariably comment on
the pedal steer without even knowing quite what it is. I rest my case. All
trikes go around in circles just fine, but they do not go so fine on the
straight away at speed.
> When Mr. Dolan admits that:
>
>>I do not notice pedal steer on any two-wheeler...
>
> I'd suggest that he's mostly highlighting his rather critical
> lack of perception. For example, take a look at this photo:
>
> http://www.logo-us.com/pix/sprint.jpg
I do not go to links on newsgroups for fear of viruses. Is this fear sound
or unsound I wonder?
But who sprints on any kind of bike (except racers), let alone a trike? Mr.
Leggett is a trikey. Pedal steer will kick in on a tadpole trike at very
modest speeds with just normal pedaling skill.
> It's a static shot and it is of course possible that these
> cyclists just happened to be in the same area but all going in
> different directions; however it sure looks to me like those
> bikers are very seriously compensating for pedal steer!
>
> The other comment Ed made that I think may help quantify the
> reliability of his observations about tadpoles is:
>
>>I have an early version WizWheelz myself.
>
> To which I would suggest: take a good look at a TerraTrike
> model prior to V3.3 from the side. Notice that the angle of
> the kingpin is virtually vertical. The priy problem for
> high speed stability on these tadpoles has nothing to do
> with pedal steer; it's that this design has very little (to
> no) rake or trail. In fact most riders think they tend to be
> pretty squirrely at speed even when the rider isn't pedaling.
I think you may be right about my TerraTrike. It is surely a bad sign when
the manufacturer keeps coming out with totally new versions every year. But
remember, I have also ridden the Greenspeed and did not find it to be much
better. I have also ridden the ICE (the one made in England) and that one
had the least pedal steer of any I have ever ridden. So I do concede that
some are better than others with respect to pedal steer.
> And finally, to Ed's assertion:
>
>>Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
>
> I have to say: I'll believe that when I see a 65-year-old
> who's never ridden one before hop on and go for a spin around
> the block on his (or her) first try. On a tadpole, the biggest
> challenge is usually getting clicked into the pedals...
I was mainly referring to design problems. However, I do maintain that it is
easier to ride a two-wheeler fast than it is to ride a three-wheeler fast.
But don't get me wrong. I have three rather expensive trikes and I love them
all. They are all good up to about 15 to 20 mph maximum. The LWB deltas have
practically no pedal steer and that is why I like them so much better. I
have the Hase Kett Wiesel and the Coos Bay Flyer (the prototype for the
Comfort Cycle - now Penninger Traveler).
Ed Dolan the Great - MInnesota
|
| |
Date: 05 May 2005 09:58:04
From: LoGo USA
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Somewhat atypically on topic but off base, Mr. Dolan diligently
disseminated dis information:
>The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal
>steer... Just keep your speed down and you will be fine. Anyone
>who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler anyway.
Which dauntless DD from down under dutifully dared to debate:
>I would tend to disagree... that speed is the main factor in
>pedal steer.
Before someone starts yet another urban myth that pedal steer
is different depending on which side of the equator you ride,
I'd like to chime in from California to reinforce Dave's
rebuttal. In my humble experience, on most trikes the most
significant factors in the amount of pedal steer may very well
be a rider's jerky push-push motion, especially at high cadence.
Since most small wheeled tadpoles with derailleur-only gearing
tend to be a tad undergeared for high speeds, some folks may
feel the pedal steer effect more when they're pushing hardest
at high cadence.
Directly addressing Jerry's original questions:
>... what causes pedal steer?
As Mr. D obsequiously (if somewhat obviously) observed:
>Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard.
Just as Dave pointed out, when you move around on any wheeled
vehicle that you outweigh by a factor of five to ten - trike,
bike, skateboard, or two teenagers in a shopping cart rolling
down a steep hill - your movements and stresses absolutely
will affect its directional stability. For a good illustration
of the effect on an upright bike, take another look at a head-on
shot of a sprint finish during the Tour de France.
But... everyone observes pedal steer as a very subjective
phenomenon. The rider causes it, and in many cases he also
adapts relatively unconsciously to compensate for it. If he
didn't, it would be impossible to ride most modern high-end
road bikes. When a tadpole rider pushes (mostly) forward on
his left pedal, if he tries to 'put his whole body into it'
by using his right shoulder as his priy reaction point, he's
essentially trying to swing the tadpole to the right with his
full body height as the length of the lever. As his cadence
increases the cycles of back and forth acceleration get higher
in intensity and it tends to be harder for most folks to adjust
their (probably unconscious) corrections. Pedal steer is hardly
a factor for cyclists who have a natural instinct to 'pedal in
circles' applying balanced forces in all directions as the crank
spins around.
>Does the frame flex?
Yes, but depending on exactly which way and how each rider
uses the flex as part of his 'feel' for spinning or 'mashing'
the pedals, it may be either a good or a bad thing, purely
from the aspect of pedal steer.
>Is it caused by inadvertent handlebar movement caused by
>pushing hard on the pedals?
For some newbies on some tadpoles, yes, but I think that's
likely to be very easy, almost instinctive to detect and
correct.
What makes the pedal steering effect less noticeable on some
tadpoles than on others? Again, that tends to be more than a
little subjective, but two of the likely factors are: a long
wheelbase (i.e., the 45" Trice Leader vs the 10" or so shorter
Catrike Pocket); a more rearward weight bias with less overhang
for the rider's feet past the front crossbeam (i.e., a TT with
short boom and rear-set seat vs the same TT and rider with a
medium boom and moved up seat). Other factors may help mask
pedal steering, but with negative tradeoffs for other aspects
of trike performance; a few examples are: fat, soft front tires
vs narrow high pressure rubber; 'sticky' steering (more drag
when you try to make slight corrections with the bars; i.e.,
2004 vs. 2005 Catrike Speed); lack of a shoulder seat surface
to press against (i.e., Catrikes vs classic Greenspeeds); and
even seat 'give' (TerraTrike vs LoGo). Riding style makes a
difference in that riders who tend to rock as they pedal will
probably note less pedal steer on tadpoles with lower seats.
THE BOTTOM LINE: Pedal steering on tadpoles is - in most cases,
for most trikes with riders who've logged some seat time - not
even close to being to a major problem for stability or rider
satisfaction. Most serious trikeys learn to spin with a rotary
motion rather than alternately tromp on the pedals as a 'one
leg at a time' linear force. And although it is eminently
possible to ride a tadpole with very little concern for those
minor weight shifts and subtle tweaks of the handlebars that are
so absolutely essential when riding a bike that for most of us
they're instinctive and long forgotten, it does help to enhance
the tadpole experience as well.
Regards,
Wayne Leggett
|
| | |
Date: 05 May 2005 20:26:20
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"LoGo USA" <wayne@logo-us.com > wrote in message
news:1115312284.279073.271140@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Somewhat atypically on topic but off base, Mr. Dolan diligently
> disseminated dis information:
>
>>The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal
>>steer... Just keep your speed down and you will be fine. Anyone
>>who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler anyway.
>
> Which dauntless DD from down under dutifully dared to debate:
>
>>I would tend to disagree... that speed is the main factor in
>>pedal steer.
>
> Before someone starts yet another urban myth that pedal steer
> is different depending on which side of the equator you ride,
> I'd like to chime in from California to reinforce Dave's
> rebuttal. In my humble experience, on most trikes the most
> significant factors in the amount of pedal steer may very well
> be a rider's jerky push-push motion, especially at high cadence.
There is only one cyclist in a hundred who will perfect his spin and they
are mainly racers. It is a waste of time for the rest of us to spend much
time working on our spin. We will pedal the way it seems natural to us and
there will always be a certain amount of herky-jerky.
> Since most small wheeled tadpoles with derailleur-only gearing
> tend to be a tad undergeared for high speeds, some folks may
> feel the pedal steer effect more when they're pushing hardest
> at high cadence.
Agreed.
> Directly addressing Jerry's original questions:
>
>>... what causes pedal steer?
>
> As Mr. D obsequiously (if somewhat obviously) observed:
>
>>Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard.
>
> Just as Dave pointed out, when you move around on any wheeled
> vehicle that you outweigh by a factor of five to ten - trike,
> bike, skateboard, or two teenagers in a shopping cart rolling
> down a steep hill - your movements and stresses absolutely
> will affect its directional stability. For a good illustration
> of the effect on an upright bike, take another look at a head-on
> shot of a sprint finish during the Tour de France.
Sorry, but I do not notice pedal steer on any two-wheeler, at least not like
I notice it on a tapole trike.
> But... everyone observes pedal steer as a very subjective
> phenomenon. The rider causes it, and in many cases he also
> adapts relatively unconsciously to compensate for it. If he
> didn't, it would be impossible to ride most modern high-end
> road bikes. When a tadpole rider pushes (mostly) forward on
> his left pedal, if he tries to 'put his whole body into it'
> by using his right shoulder as his priy reaction point, he's
> essentially trying to swing the tadpole to the right with his
> full body height as the length of the lever. As his cadence
> increases the cycles of back and forth acceleration get higher
> in intensity and it tends to be harder for most folks to adjust
> their (probably unconscious) corrections. Pedal steer is hardly
> a factor for cyclists who have a natural instinct to 'pedal in
> circles' applying balanced forces in all directions as the crank
> spins around.
I consider myself an average cyclist with no special skills and I can ride
all other bikes and trikes easily without noticing pedal steer - except
tadpole trikes.
>>Does the frame flex?
>
> Yes, but depending on exactly which way and how each rider
> uses the flex as part of his 'feel' for spinning or 'mashing'
> the pedals, it may be either a good or a bad thing, purely
> from the aspect of pedal steer.
>
>>Is it caused by inadvertent handlebar movement caused by
>>pushing hard on the pedals?
>
> For some newbies on some tadpoles, yes, but I think that's
> likely to be very easy, almost instinctive to detect and
> correct.
>
> What makes the pedal steering effect less noticeable on some
> tadpoles than on others? Again, that tends to be more than a
> little subjective, but two of the likely factors are: a long
> wheelbase (i.e., the 45" Trice Leader vs the 10" or so shorter
> Catrike Pocket); a more rearward weight bias with less overhang
> for the rider's feet past the front crossbeam (i.e., a TT with
> short boom and rear-set seat vs the same TT and rider with a
> medium boom and moved up seat). Other factors may help mask
> pedal steering, but with negative tradeoffs for other aspects
> of trike performance; a few examples are: fat, soft front tires
> vs narrow high pressure rubber; 'sticky' steering (more drag
> when you try to make slight corrections with the bars; i.e.,
> 2004 vs. 2005 Catrike Speed); lack of a shoulder seat surface
> to press against (i.e., Catrikes vs classic Greenspeeds); and
> even seat 'give' (TerraTrike vs LoGo). Riding style makes a
> difference in that riders who tend to rock as they pedal will
> probably note less pedal steer on tadpoles with lower seats.
The above is an excellent paragraph and should be read and noted well by all
tadpole trike riders. The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
> THE BOTTOM LINE: Pedal steering on tadpoles is - in most cases,
> for most trikes with riders who've logged some seat time - not
> even close to being to a major problem for stability or rider
> satisfaction. Most serious trikeys learn to spin with a rotary
> motion rather than alternately tromp on the pedals as a 'one
> leg at a time' linear force. And although it is eminently
> possible to ride a tadpole with very little concern for those
> minor weight shifts and subtle tweaks of the handlebars that are
> so absolutely essential when riding a bike that for most of us
> they're instinctive and long forgotten, it does help to enhance
> the tadpole experience as well.
All of the above is only too true, but most of us are not serious trikeys.
We are casual riders only and we do not want to make a science out of riding
them. We want to be able to ride our trikes the same way we drive our cars,
with a minimum of skill and knowledge.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 08:39:54
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:26:20 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote:
>There is only one cyclist in a hundred who will perfect his spin and they
>are mainly racers.
And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
not any kind of rule.
>Sorry, but I do not notice pedal steer on any two-wheeler, at least not like
>I notice it on a tapole trike.
I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
steer.
>I consider myself an average cyclist with no special skills and I can ride
>all other bikes and trikes easily without noticing pedal steer - except
>tadpole trikes.
What other high BB bikes have you tried?
>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 04:23:56
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null > wrote in message
news:uh7m71tgs61ujio7e8dr8ojgpau76hjg4v@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 May 2005 20:26:20 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote:
>
>>There is only one cyclist in a hundred who will perfect his spin and they
>>are mainly racers.
>
> And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
> cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
> reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
> Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
> not any kind of rule.
Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No one,
but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm or less.
I find that I can't even keep it at 90 rpm for long unless I consciously
work at it. And anyone who works at cycling is a nut case.
I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the pedals
on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief. Does anyone
do that?
>>Sorry, but I do not notice pedal steer on any two-wheeler, at least not
>>like
>>I notice it on a tapole trike.
>
> I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
> steer.
Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not slow
speed.
>>I consider myself an average cyclist with no special skills and I can ride
>>all other bikes and trikes easily without noticing pedal steer - except
>>tadpole trikes.
>
> What other high BB bikes have you tried?
I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
than that and I get numb feet.
>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
>
> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
Kids can do things that us adults can't. Everyone knows that. Kids around
here perform on skateboards doing tricks that would kill me if I were
foolish enough to try.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 22:08:17
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:23:56 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <uIGdnVP_cdlcqubfRVn-tw@prairiewave.com >:
>> And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
>> cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
>> reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
>> Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
>> not any kind of rule.
>Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No one,
>but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers).
No one except racers, me (a commuter and exactly three-time racer), my
wife (commuter & taking the kids to school) son Michael (11) and Peter
(8), half the guys in my local branch of the touring club, etc. etc.
So, no one except the ones who do.
>Most pedal at 80 rpm or less.
Bollocks. Even the slow pedallers in the CTC routinely average 90.
You are confusing the specific case of what you imagine you woudl do
if you still rode, with the general case.
>I find that I can't even keep it at 90 rpm for long unless I consciously
>work at it. And anyone who works at cycling is a nut case.
Or faster and more comfortable. In my case faster and more
comfortable.
>I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the pedals
>on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief. Does anyone
>do that?
Yes. But only with Look pedals.
>> I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
>> steer.
>Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
>problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not slow
>speed.
You get pedal steer on a two-wheeler at high speed as well, if you
overcook it or if you are pedalling faster than you are used to. I
spin out at about 125rpm; above that I start to lose control.
>> What other high BB bikes have you tried?
>I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
>than that and I get numb feet.
It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.
>>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>>>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>>>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
>> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
>> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
>Kids can do things that us adults can't. Everyone knows that. Kids around
>here perform on skateboards doing tricks that would kill me if I were
>foolish enough to try.
Yada yada. You are comparing with your LWB bike - completely
different. I ride a SWB, I've tried some LWB, some lowracers, and
I've tried some trikes. No problem on any of them, ever. Still can't
ride that yike, though.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 06 May 2005 17:37:33
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:dnmn7194pilb9hgosf348n9sp11rni4lhu@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:23:56 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <uIGdnVP_cdlcqubfRVn-tw@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>> And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
>>> cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
>>> reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
>>> Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
>>> not any kind of rule.
>
>>Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No one,
>>but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers).
>
> No one except racers, me (a commuter and exactly three-time racer), my
> wife (commuter & taking the kids to school) son Michael (11) and Peter
> (8), half the guys in my local branch of the touring club, etc. etc.
>
> So, no one except the ones who do.
>
>>Most pedal at 80 rpm or less.
>
> Bollocks. Even the slow pedallers in the CTC routinely average 90.
> You are confusing the specific case of what you imagine you woudl do
> if you still rode, with the general case.
>
>>I find that I can't even keep it at 90 rpm for long unless I consciously
>>work at it. And anyone who works at cycling is a nut case.
>
> Or faster and more comfortable. In my case faster and more
> comfortable.
>
>>I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
>>pedals
>>on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief. Does anyone
>>do that?
>
> Yes. But only with Look pedals.
>
>>> I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
>>> steer.
>
>>Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
>>problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not slow
>>speed.
>
> You get pedal steer on a two-wheeler at high speed as well, if you
> overcook it or if you are pedalling faster than you are used to. I
> spin out at about 125rpm; above that I start to lose control.
I have read that 90 rpm is about right for most serious cyclists, but casual
cyclists do not spin anywhere near that. I try to keep it at 90 rpm myself
as I would rather spin than push.
I once saw a gal spin at least 125 rpm on a group ride in North Dakota. It
just looked crazy to me and I wondered how efficient it was to spin that
fast. It seemed like she was wasting a lot of effort for not much forward
motion.
>>> What other high BB bikes have you tried?
>
>>I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
>>than that and I get numb feet.
>
> It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
> both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.
Yes, I do agree that LWB, whether a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler (delta)
is a completely different dynamic and that is why I prefer LWB over SWB. But
it would appear that you are agreeing with me that there is pedal steer
connected with SWB. Tadpole trikes are the worse in this respect. It is
better to be honest about this aspect than to try to cover it up or to
minimize it.
[...]
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 10:06:01
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:37:33 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <aP2dncGRSZJcbObfRVn-iw@prairiewave.com >:
>I have read that 90 rpm is about right for most serious cyclists, but casual
>cyclists do not spin anywhere near that. I try to keep it at 90 rpm myself
>as I would rather spin than push.
But my wife spins faster than I do and she is not a serious cyclist.
So does my MiL for that matter.
>>>I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
>>>than that and I get numb feet.
>> It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
>> both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.
>Yes, I do agree that LWB, whether a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler (delta)
>is a completely different dynamic and that is why I prefer LWB over SWB. But
>it would appear that you are agreeing with me that there is pedal steer
>connected with SWB. Tadpole trikes are the worse in this respect. It is
>better to be honest about this aspect than to try to cover it up or to
>minimize it.
The thing is, Ed, I don't know that tadpole trikes /are/ worse than
SWB bikes in that respect. I ride a SWB bike every day, and I know
that pedal steer is an issue, often a serious one. Early in my
recumbent career it took me off once, I've learned to be wary of it.
Nobody has produced any evidence that it is worse on tadpole trikes;
for all you know it might be that USS and SWB together produce the
maximum effect, and that just happens to be the most common
configuration of tadpole.
I'd rather rely on the opinion of people who actually ride the bikes
under discussion, rather than one who rides a completely different
kind of bike mainly because he doesn't like the high BB configuration
which is almost universal on tadpoles.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 11:58:32
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:ut0p71lg8505tt70r7th6k4prai8tmn3g8@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:37:33 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <aP2dncGRSZJcbObfRVn-iw@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>I have read that 90 rpm is about right for most serious cyclists, but
>>casual
>>cyclists do not spin anywhere near that. I try to keep it at 90 rpm myself
>>as I would rather spin than push.
>
> But my wife spins faster than I do and she is not a serious cyclist.
> So does my MiL for that matter.
>
>>>>I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any
>>>>higher
>>>>than that and I get numb feet.
>
>>> It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
>>> both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.
>
>>Yes, I do agree that LWB, whether a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler
>>(delta),
>>is a completely different dynamic and that is why I prefer LWB over SWB.
>>But
>>it would appear that you are agreeing with me that there is pedal steer
>>connected with SWB. Tadpole trikes are the worse in this respect. It is
>>better to be honest about this aspect than to try to cover it up or to
>>minimize it.
>
> The thing is, Ed, I don't know that tadpole trikes /are/ worse than
> SWB bikes in that respect. I ride a SWB bike every day, and I know
> that pedal steer is an issue, often a serious one. Early in my
> recumbent career it took me off once, I've learned to be wary of it.
> Nobody has produced any evidence that it is worse on tadpole trikes;
> for all you know it might be that USS and SWB together produce the
> maximum effect, and that just happens to be the most common
> configuration of tadpole.
My TerraTrike has above seat steering and the other tadpole trikes that I
have ridden had under seat steering. No difference. I do think SWB does
produce more pedal steer whereas LWB does not. But riding a SWB two-wheeler
give you a bit more control than riding a tadpole, perhaps because of subtle
shifts of body lean. You are a potted plant on a trike and at the mercy of
your pedaling skill and steering input unrelated to body language.
> I'd rather rely on the opinion of people who actually ride the bikes
> under discussion, rather than one who rides a completely different
> kind of bike mainly because he doesn't like the high BB configuration
> which is almost universal on tadpoles.
Actually, my TerraTrike has one of the lowest BBs for a tadpole trike. It is
an early version and I do note that more recent versions have raised the BB
considerably. In fact, almost all tadpole trikes now have too high a BB in
my humble opinion.
I have always thought the optimum position is to have the BB slightly lower
than the seat so that you are pedaling slightly downward. It is not good for
the blood circulation to have your legs above your hips pedaling for long
periods of time. Evolution did not design us for this kind of awkward
position, at least not for performing any work.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 18:50:24
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:58:32 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <-uudnYcist4lbuHfRVn-uw@prairiewave.com >:
>My TerraTrike has above seat steering and the other tadpole trikes that I
>have ridden had under seat steering. No difference.
Ah, so you are basing your thesis on comparing an atypical trike with
a LWB bike. That would explain it: they are very different. When you
compare like more or less with like - SWB bikes with tadpoles, for
example, the difference seems to be much less evident.
>Actually, my TerraTrike has one of the lowest BBs for a tadpole trike. It is
>an early version and I do note that more recent versions have raised the BB
>considerably. In fact, almost all tadpole trikes now have too high a BB in
>my humble opinion.
So you say. I have no problem with a high BB, it gives ground
clearance for the pedals without the instability of a high CoG. The
Pashley PDQ3 amply demonstrates how undesirable a high CoG is on a
recumbent trike.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 13:25:08
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:envp711jhdcosolp14flc7t6tkf8ojsknl@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:58:32 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <-uudnYcist4lbuHfRVn-uw@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>My TerraTrike has above seat steering and the other tadpole trikes that I
>>have ridden had under seat steering. No difference.
>
> Ah, so you are basing your thesis on comparing an atypical trike with
> a LWB bike. That would explain it: they are very different. When you
> compare like more or less with like - SWB bikes with tadpoles, for
> example, the difference seems to be much less evident.
I consider LWB to be completely different than SWB. I will give you that
tadpoles are more like SWB, much to their detriment, and that deltas are
more like LWB, much to their advantage.
>>Actually, my TerraTrike has one of the lowest BBs for a tadpole trike. It
>>is
>>an early version and I do note that more recent versions have raised the
>>BB
>>considerably. In fact, almost all tadpole trikes now have too high a BB in
>>my humble opinion.
>
> So you say. I have no problem with a high BB, it gives ground
> clearance for the pedals without the instability of a high CoG. The
> Pashley PDQ3 amply demonstrates how undesirable a high CoG is on a
> recumbent trike.
Yes, I do agree that recumbent trikes need to have a low center of gravity,
whether tadpole or delta. But this can be achieved without a high BB,
especially on a trike.
I enjoy my SWB recumbents. None of mine have a high BB. But I will always
choose LWB over SWB. LWB is simply a far better design. There really is no
comparison.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 19:57:56
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:25:08 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <yKGdna_v7q2YleDfRVn-tQ@prairiewave.com >:
>I consider LWB to be completely different than SWB. I will give you that
>tadpoles are more like SWB, much to their detriment, and that deltas are
>more like LWB, much to their advantage.
You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
>> I have no problem with a high BB, it gives ground
>> clearance for the pedals without the instability of a high CoG. The
>> Pashley PDQ3 amply demonstrates how undesirable a high CoG is on a
>> recumbent trike.
>Yes, I do agree that recumbent trikes need to have a low center of gravity,
>whether tadpole or delta. But this can be achieved without a high BB,
>especially on a trike.
The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
>I enjoy my SWB recumbents. None of mine have a high BB. But I will always
>choose LWB over SWB. LWB is simply a far better design. There really is no
>comparison.
You say. Actually, of course, there is a comparison. And some people
prefer one while other prefer the other.
Most of the 'bents sold in Europe are SWB.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 08 May 2005 01:36:12
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:rp3q719f33c3om7np31mm1quhsmoberbbd@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:25:08 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <yKGdna_v7q2YleDfRVn-tQ@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>I consider LWB to be completely different than SWB. I will give you that
>>tadpoles are more like SWB, much to their detriment, and that deltas are
>>more like LWB, much to their advantage.
>
> You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
> like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB like
the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of it -
they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
that the SWB has over the LWB.
>>> I have no problem with a high BB, it gives ground
>>> clearance for the pedals without the instability of a high CoG. The
>>> Pashley PDQ3 amply demonstrates how undesirable a high CoG is on a
>>> recumbent trike.
>
>>Yes, I do agree that recumbent trikes need to have a low center of
>>gravity,
>>whether tadpole or delta. But this can be achieved without a high BB,
>>especially on a trike.
>
> The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
> sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
With trikes the BB can be almost at the level of the seat or only slightly
above the seat. It does not need to be as high as they are presently being
designed. Admittedly, with SWB two-wheelers, you do encounter problems with
the front wheel. But still, I have a Turner Laid Back which has a BB that is
below the seat as is my Kowal KD-4. Even my Vision has the BB only slightly
above the seat with a 20" wheel. With a 16" wheel the BB is at the level of
the seat, not higher. Guess which wheel I prefer on my Vision.
>>I enjoy my SWB recumbents. None of mine have a high BB. But I will always
>>choose LWB over SWB. LWB is simply a far better design. There really is no
>>comparison.
>
> You say. Actually, of course, there is a comparison. And some people
> prefer one while other prefer the other.
I have found SWB to be a sportier ride, in other words more fun. But in the
end I will always go back to LWB. It is just a better bicycle design
overall. It solves many problems that SWB will never be able to solve.
> Most of the 'bents sold in Europe are SWB.
Yes, very curious. That may be true here now as well. But for the longest
period of time, LWB ruled in the US.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
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Date: 08 May 2005 09:02:27
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sun, 8 May 2005 01:36:12 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com >:
>There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB like
>the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of it -
>they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
>that the SWB has over the LWB.
They are faster and they have a smaller turning circle and they are
usually lighter and more aero.
>> The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
>> sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
> With trikes the BB can be almost at the level of the seat or only slightly
>above the seat. It does not need to be as high as they are presently being
>designed.
http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/trikes_monster.htm
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 08 May 2005 04:23:14
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:3nhr7195kddlaeovj3l7p56elvofpdoea4@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 May 2005 01:36:12 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB like
>>the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of it -
>>they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
>>that the SWB has over the LWB.
>
> They are faster and they have a smaller turning circle and they are
> usually lighter and more aero.
The above considerations relate to the size of the bike. A LWB that is light
with a fairing is about as fast as you can get on a recumbent. Most guys who
get LWB are not into speed like SWB riders are. They are into control and
comfort and like to cruise more than anything else. But remember Fast Freddy
of Easy Racers fame!
>>> The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
>>> sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
>
>> With trikes the BB can be almost at the level of the seat or only
>> slightly
>>above the seat. It does not need to be as high as they are presently being
>>designed.
>
> http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/trikes_monster.htm
The above trike is not as nice as it looks. The ground clearance is only
2.5", the seat height is only 4.5" and the BB height is 13.8" putting the
crank over 9" above the seat. The way to correct all of this is to raise
the entire trike. It does not need to be that low for good center of
gravity. With a slightly higher trike you could have a much lower BB. It is
not good to have your legs that elevated above your hips.
My early version TerraTrike has one of the lowest BBs of any trike I have
ever seen. That is no longer the case with the more recent TerraTrikes. Most
trikes have their BB way too high.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 11:23:35
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sun, 8 May 2005 04:23:14 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <ruKdnSbbVYMZR-DfRVn-1Q@prairiewave.com >:
>>>There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB like
>>>the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of it -
>>>they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
>>>that the SWB has over the LWB.
>> They are faster and they have a smaller turning circle and they are
>> usually lighter and more aero.
>The above considerations relate to the size of the bike. A LWB that is light
>with a fairing is about as fast as you can get on a recumbent. Most guys who
>get LWB are not into speed like SWB riders are. They are into control and
>comfort and like to cruise more than anything else. But remember Fast Freddy
>of Easy Racers fame!
Yes, I remember Freddy kham. I also remember Sam Whittingham and
his (SWB) Varna Diablo.
>> http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/trikes_monster.htm
>The above trike is not as nice as it looks.
Say that again after you've ridden it. It is addictive! It
accelerates like no other bike I've ever ridden, and it steers like
it's on rails.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 06:50:31
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:otpr719dav8i080qcike9thunns2dtudv5@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 May 2005 04:23:14 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <ruKdnSbbVYMZR-DfRVn-1Q@prairiewave.com>:
[...]
>>> http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/trikes_monster.htm
>
>>The above trike is not as nice as it looks.
>
> Say that again after you've ridden it. It is addictive! It
> accelerates like no other bike I've ever ridden, and it steers like
> it's on rails.
A trike that steers like it is on rails is my kind of trike. That means it
essentially has no pedal steer. My Coos Bay Flyer (a very long wheel base
delta and somewhat on the heavy side) steers like it is on rails - and that
is the standard by which I judge all other trikes. I have ridden the Trice
(ICE) and it did have the most solid steering of any tadpole I have ever
ridden. But they are way too expensive for me. I will never pay more than
$2000. for any bike (20 years ago my limit was $1000.).
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 02:59:55
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com...
>
> > You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
> > like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
>
> There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB like
> the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of it -
> they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
> that the SWB has over the LWB.
Turning radius and from what I've seen speed
> > The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
> > sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
>
> With trikes the BB can be almost at the level of the seat or only
slightly
> above the seat. It does not need to be as high as they are presently being
> designed.
Unless you like your pedals or heels dragging into the ground they do need
to be that high
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 03:59:39
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:aZednYo66IrhW-DfRVn-hg@comcast.com...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com...
>>
>> > You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
>> > like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
>>
>> There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB
>> like
>> the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of
>> it -
>> they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other advantages
>> that the SWB has over the LWB.
>
> Turning radius and from what I've seen speed
The turning radius relates to size. Most riders of LWB are not into speed
like the riders of SWB are. It they were I believe they would be faster.
Having the crank out in front of the wheel is a very bad idea. It makes for
a smaller bike, but that is about all it does. The crank needs to be between
the wheels. Elementary my dear Watson!
A CASUAL rider will be faster on a LWB than he will be on a SWB. Racers are
a separate category.
>> > The CoG is largely governed by how high the rider sits. If the rider
>> > sits low, the BB is going to be above the seat height.
>>
>> With trikes the BB can be at the level of the seat or only
> slightly
>> above the seat. It does not need to be as high as they are presently
>> being
>> designed.
>
> Unless you like your pedals or heels dragging into the ground they do need
> to be that high
A miss by an inch is as good as a mile. Most trikes do not need to be as low
as they are for good center of gravity. Trikes are being designed for speed
instead of for common sense. BBs are now way too high and work against human
anatomy and physiology.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 09:06:56
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:PfudnSdK88phSeDfRVn-qA@prairiewave.com...
>
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:aZednYo66IrhW-DfRVn-hg@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> > news:-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com...
> >>
> >> > You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
> >> > like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
> >>
> >> There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB
> >> like
> >> the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of
> >> it -
> >> they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other
advantages
> >> that the SWB has over the LWB.
> >
> > Turning radius and from what I've seen speed
>
> The turning radius relates to size. Most riders of LWB are not into speed
> like the riders of SWB are. It they were I believe they would be faster.
> Having the crank out in front of the wheel is a very bad idea. It makes
for
> a smaller bike, but that is about all it does. The crank needs to be
between
> the wheels. Elementary my dear Watson!
Obviously you have little experience with SWB's, I question if you have ANY
experience with either but thats another story
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 May 2005 18:18:54
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:bIudnSs2UZEdgePfRVn-iA@comcast.com...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:PfudnSdK88phSeDfRVn-qA@prairiewave.com...
>>
>> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:aZednYo66IrhW-DfRVn-hg@comcast.com...
>> >
>> > "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
>> > news:-cudnUhlqYvDLuDfRVn-oA@prairiewave.com...
>> >>
>> >> > You say. But you are a leisurely rider. I like to go faster, so I
>> >> > like SWB. It also fits on trains better.
>> >>
>> >> There is nothing faster for the casual rider than a well designed LWB
>> >> like
>> >> the Easy Racers Tour Easy. The main advantage of a SWB is the size of
>> >> it -
>> >> they are much easier to transport. I can't think of any other
> advantages
>> >> that the SWB has over the LWB.
>> >
>> > Turning radius and from what I've seen speed
>>
>> The turning radius relates to size. Most riders of LWB are not into speed
>> like the riders of SWB are. It they were I believe they would be faster.
>> Having the crank out in front of the wheel is a very bad idea. It makes
> for
>> a smaller bike, but that is about all it does. The crank needs to be
> between
>> the wheels. Elementary my dear Watson!
>
> Obviously you have little experience with SWB's, I question if you have
> ANY
> experience with either but thats another story
Thanks for asking!
I got into bikes in 1974 and into recumbents about 10 years later. So we are
talking about a total of almost 30 years experience. I have got more bikes
lying about my house than some bike shops have. It has gotten downright
embarrassing to bring anyone into the house anymore. I try to tell folks
that I am not really crazy, just a bit eccentric.
For about a year I rode SWB almost exclusively as well as doing a couple of
long bike tours on them. You have to stay alert on SWB and I do not like to
stay alert. I like to dream and look at the clouds when I am cycling.
Therefore, LWB is the only way for me to go. SWB is for serious obsessive
compulsive types like you and Guy. LWB is for rational, sane persons like
myself.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 10:50:43
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Edward Dolan wrote:
> I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
> pedals on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief.
> Does anyone do that?
Yes.
>> I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
>> steer.
>
> Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
> problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not
> slow speed.
Seems to me the "pedal steer" phenomenon depends on the relative positions
of the steered wheel(s) and pedals. Thus on a tadpole trike it manifests
itself as a yawing motion, but on an SWB bike it tends to be a rolling one.
Whether it's just my head moving or the bike moving under me I'm not sure,
and am disinclined to bolt my head rigidily to the tailbox in order to find
out, but it certainly appears as though the derailleur post on the
Speedmachine doesn't stay still while pedalling hard.
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And
the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries
of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and
to them it is the holocaust."
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 06:50:55
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:3e1019Fl049U1@individual.net...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
>> pedals on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief.
>> Does anyone do that?
>
> Yes.
Me thinks you are into racing. Most of the rest of us aren't.
>>> I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
>>> steer.
>>
>> Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
>> problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not
>> slow speed.
>
> Seems to me the "pedal steer" phenomenon depends on the relative positions
> of the steered wheel(s) and pedals. Thus on a tadpole trike it manifests
> itself as a yawing motion, but on an SWB bike it tends to be a rolling
> one.
> Whether it's just my head moving or the bike moving under me I'm not sure,
> and am disinclined to bolt my head rigidily to the tailbox in order to
> find
> out, but it certainly appears as though the derailleur post on the
> Speedmachine doesn't stay still while pedalling hard.
There is no need to put pedal steer in quotation ks as though it did not
exist. It exists just as surely as there is a Santa Claus.
I am not sure about any of the above as I have never pedaled hard in my
life. Such an idea would never even occur to me. But mostly I am into
strictly long wheel base recumbents where the steered wheel is at the right
distance from the pedals and the right distance from the seat. All short
wheel base bikes and trikes are an abomination before the sight of God and
Man.
But even if there is some pedal steer on a SWB bike, it does not have the
same effect as the pedal steer of a tadpole. I hardly notice it on a SWB
bike, whereas I most certainly do notice it on a tadpole - and at much
slower speeds to boot. It seems like you are in perfect control of whatever
pedal steer is present on a two-wheeler whereas you feel that you are always
on the verge of losing control of the pedal steer on a tadpole (but only at
high speed). Thus spake Zarathustra.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 09:27:45
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>
>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
where a trike requires you to actively move the bars. This applies to
any sort of trike, not just tadpole recumbents. Having veered around
the place on a Delta on my first trike trip for many years I got the
hang of it and was okay. Next trike try was on a tadpole and it wasn't
any trouble at all.
> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
DKUATB.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 04:35:18
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Peter Clinch" <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote in message
news:3e0o05Fj5b6U1@individual.net...
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>>
>>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very complicated design where
>>>lots of factors have to be taken into consideration. Two-wheelers are far
>>>simpler and easier to ride.
>
> Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
> because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
> where a trike requires you to actively move the bars. This applies to any
> sort of trike, not just tadpole recumbents. Having veered around the
> place on a Delta on my first trike trip for many years I got the hang of
> it and was okay. Next trike try was on a tadpole and it wasn't any
> trouble at all.
I suspect a SWB delta (very rare) would not be any better than a tadpole,
but surely you are not saying that a LWB delta is not infinitely superior to
a tadpole with respect to pedal steer.
>> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
>> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
>
> It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
> riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
> DKUATB.
I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 09:36:10
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Fri, 06 May 2005 09:27:45 +0100, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>>>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>>>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
FSVO people, I reckon. I know some folks who really don't get on with
two-wheel 'bents - the mechanism may be similar in terms of the
BRITONS' SCIENCE but with the axis of the body rotated so that front
more or less becomes back. Whereas I have never seen anyone have
trouble getting going on a trike.
>> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
>> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
>It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
>riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
>DKUATB.
Silly of me...
http://www.kmxkarts.co.uk/ - parental advisory: do not allow children
to ride KMX karts if you cannot afford to buy one there and then.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 04:46:37
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null > wrote in message
news:qkam71haa8t7f45al21i3u926kbn2r3hr5@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 06 May 2005 09:27:45 +0100, Peter Clinch
> <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>>>>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>>>>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.
>
>>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
>>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
three-wheelers.
> FSVO people, I reckon. I know some folks who really don't get on with
> two-wheel 'bents - the mechanism may be similar in terms of the
> BRITONS' SCIENCE but with the axis of the body rotated so that front
> more or less becomes back. Whereas I have never seen anyone have
> trouble getting going on a trike.
We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
>>> Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
>>> a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.
>
>>It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
>>riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
>>DKUATB.
>
> Silly of me...
I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in their
40's and over.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 22:00:11
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:46:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <s6-dnU1onK6NoObfRVn-og@prairiewave.com >:
>>>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
>>>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>>>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
>Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
>three-wheelers.
You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
steer.
>We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
>into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
that it does.
>I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
>see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in their
>40's and over.
You need to get out more.
A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
riding them at cycle festivals.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 08 Jun 2005 20:09:07
From: 25hz
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Yeah, well, that's just Dolan's opinion and it's worth what it cost.
Lots of trikes Iv'e ridden have no pedal steer and I've had all kinds of
people logging rides on a friend's single speed, direct steering, coaster
brake trike. Can't get much simpler than that when comparing it to most 2
wheel bents with multi-speeds. The rider has every bit as much influence on
the performance of the bent as the bent does, and I have no problem riding
my trikes at over 80kph. Speed is irrelevent unless the bent is poorly
designed - either 2 or 3 wheel. As for kids, I have seen all kinds of kids
riding bents, including our 5 children. They just about exclusively ride
the trikes now, and request things like racks, bags, trailers and now, more
gears so they can go faster. They have now taken their mountain bikes and
tossed them onto the pile of bikes I use for parts on 2nd based trikes and
bents I build.
Dolan's comments are just that - Dolan's comments. They don't necessarily
have much to do with the reality of everyone else on the planet, especially
bent riders.
> >>>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two
wheelers
> >>>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
> >>>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
>
> >Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared
to
> >three-wheelers.
>
> You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
> Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
> that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
> wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
> steer.
>
> >We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
> >into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
>
> You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
> that it does.
>
> >I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
> >see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
their
> >40's and over.
>
> You need to get out more.
>
> A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
> seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
> riding them at cycle festivals.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Jun 2005 00:55:16
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"25hz" <25hz@rogers.com > wrote in message
news:o-udnUzNva4BFTrfRVn-gQ@rogers.com...
> Yeah, well, that's just Dolan's opinion and it's worth what it cost.
Jeez! Just when you think a thread has died and gone to hell where it
belongs, someone will resurrect it.
Since this is a very old thread, it would behoove you to post properly,
i.e., bottom post so others who may be reading your message will know to
what you are referring specifically. Top posting is NEVER correct, but it is
especially not correct when posting to an old thread.
> Lots of trikes Iv'e ridden have no pedal steer and I've had all kinds of
> people logging rides on a friend's single speed, direct steering, coaster
> brake trike. Can't get much simpler than that when comparing it to most 2
> wheel bents with multi-speeds. The rider has every bit as much influence
> on
> the performance of the bent as the bent does, and I have no problem riding
> my trikes at over 80kph. Speed is irrelevent unless the bent is poorly
> designed - either 2 or 3 wheel. As for kids, I have seen all kinds of
> kids
> riding bents, including our 5 children. They just about exclusively ride
> the trikes now, and request things like racks, bags, trailers and now,
> more
> gears so they can go faster. They have now taken their mountain bikes and
> tossed them onto the pile of bikes I use for parts on 2nd based trikes and
> bents I build.
Kids can often ride bikes and do many other physical things much better than
we adults.
There is no longer any question about pedal steer. It exists on tadpole
trikes more than it does on any other kind of bike. It is just a question of
the degree to which it is felt by various riders. To go really fast on a
tadpole is insane. You are just asking to be killed.
> Dolan's comments are just that - Dolan's comments. They don't necessarily
> have much to do with the reality of everyone else on the planet,
> especially
> bent riders.
Ed Dolan the Great has many recumbents of all types and has had many years
experience riding them and comparing them. Listen to others at your peril. I
am not called the oracle of ARBR for nothing you know!
>> >>>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two
> wheelers
>> >>>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>> >>>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
>>
>> >Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared
> to
>> >three-wheelers.
>>
>> You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
>> Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
>> that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
>> wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
>> steer.
What racers do does not count. They are into taking risks with their bikes
and themselves constantly - and besides they are all insane anyway as
everyone knows.
>> >We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not
>> >come
>> >into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
>>
>> You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
>> that it does.
It may be that pedal steer does come into play on a two-wheeler, but it is
not as noticeable as on a tadpole trike. I think it must have to do with
subtle body shifts, which are impossible on a trike. Many times I have had
the experience of being out of control on a tadpole at speed due to pedal
steer, but I have never had that experience with a two-wheeler no matter the
speed.
>> >I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not
>> >even
>> >see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
> their
>> >40's and over.
>>
>> You need to get out more.
>>
>> A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
>> seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
>> riding them at cycle festivals.
I stand by my statement above.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 09 Jun 2005 08:20:04
From: Buck
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On 06/09/2005 06:55:16 "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote:
> Many times I have
> had the experience of being out of control on a tadpole at speed due to
> pedal steer, but I have never had that experience with a two-wheeler no
> matter the speed.
You must ride drunk, or at least pedal like a drunken monkey.
--
Buck
I would rather be out on my Catrike
http://www.catrike.co.uk
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2005 00:11:01
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Buck" <ian@*remove*trikesandstuff.co.uk > wrote in message
news:69920.XBDILFES@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
>
> On 06/09/2005 06:55:16 "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Many times I have
>> had the experience of being out of control on a tadpole at speed due to
>> pedal steer, but I have never had that experience with a two-wheeler no
>> matter the speed.
>
> You must ride drunk, or at least pedal like a drunken monkey.
I pedal all of my bikes the same way and do not notice pedal steer on any
other of my bikes except for the tadpoles.
If it were just me I would not be making such an issue out of it. But I have
noted exactly the same reaction of many others. The only ones who do not
complain about pedal steer in connection with tadpoles are the racer types -
and I have already told you that those types don't count. I put them in the
same category as I do unicycle riders in the circus.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 06 May 2005 17:23:20
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:ndmn71h4qc64b8s67la30q3l0vucttdb0a@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:46:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <s6-dnU1onK6NoObfRVn-og@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>>>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used priily to two wheelers
>>>>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>>>>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.
>
>>Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
>>three-wheelers.
>
> You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
> Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
> that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
> wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
> steer.
Guy does go on and on about racers and speed records, as if any of that
applied to anyone on this group.
>>We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
>>into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
>
> You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
> that it does.
The way I cycle there is never any pedal steer on a two-wheeler that is the
least bit noticeable. And that goes for SWB too. However, the way I cycle on
a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed. And I assure you, I am
a normal cycler (I think I just invented a new word).
>>I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
>>see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
>>their
>>40's and over.
>
> You need to get out more.
I have done more week long group bike tours than I care to mention and I
have NEVER seen a kid on a recumbent. Most are old like you and me, ready to
fall into the grave.
> A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
> seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
> riding them at cycle festivals.
Why does this not surprise me. Statistics 101 anyone?
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 May 2005 10:00:31
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:23:20 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <MeqdnbZXx_nxc-bfRVn-1w@prairiewave.com >:
>>>Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
>>>three-wheelers.
[snip speedy]
>Guy does go on and on about racers and speed records, as if any of that
>applied to anyone on this group.
You said two-wheelers are easier to ride at speed. Racers and people
setting speed records tend to ride at speed, often for quite long
periods. Perhaps you men "at speed" in the sense of "above walking
pace" - as far as I'm concerned "at speed" implies not less than
20mph, and I have found that both bikes and trikes are equally easy at
speeds up to 40mph. Since I don't own a trike I've not had the
opportunity to try one at speeds above that, but my SWB low bike is
fine at 50 and I have no reason to believe a trike would be different
as I have several trike-owning friends who tell me that their
machines, too, feel good at 50mph and above.
>>>We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
>>>into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.
>> You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
>> that it does.
>The way I cycle there is never any pedal steer on a two-wheeler that is the
>least bit noticeable.
You are riding a LWB, slowly. I am riding a SWB and riding hard. I
have powerful legs. The one time I raced the 'bent I was the fastest
rider without a tailbox.
>And that goes for SWB too. However, the way I cycle on
>a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed. And I assure you, I am
>a normal cycler (I think I just invented a new word).
Ed, I don't think anyone here is under any illusion that you are a
normal anything. I offer for your consideration the old-established
word "cyclist".
>>>I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
>>>see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
>>>their 40's and over.
>> You need to get out more.
>I have done more week long group bike tours than I care to mention and I
>have NEVER seen a kid on a recumbent. Most are old like you and me, ready to
>fall into the grave.
So you ride a lot with old people and see mainly old people riding
'bents. Whereas I ride with young people and see young people riding
them.
>> A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
>> seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
>> riding them at cycle festivals.
>Why does this not surprise me. Statistics 101 anyone?
Precisely. You are treating the contents of EdWorld as being
universal. You "never" see kids on 'bents? You're just looking in
the wrong places. They love 'em just as much as adults do.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
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Date: 09 May 2005 08:55:43
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> You are treating the contents of EdWorld as being
> universal. You "never" see kids on 'bents? You're just looking in
> the wrong places. They love 'em just as much as adults do.
My nephew was up in Dundee at a rugby tournament yesterday, and I went
along to yell for the team. Other side of town, so I cycled, and
wanting a seat for the touchline I took the Streetmachine.
So, there I am with a 'bent in a field full of ~10 year old boys (and a
few girls too), and despite the attractions of their favourite game to
keep them occupied I had an ongoing *queue* of them wanting to know
about it and to sit on it, all the while declaring it to be /seriously/
cool and wondering where I got it. Couldn't have kept them off it by
poking them with a shitty stick!
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 07 May 2005 11:37:38
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:f10p711fbc44g4dcvq3e8mqe21kc9fenfv@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:23:20 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <MeqdnbZXx_nxc-bfRVn-1w@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>>>Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared
>>>>to
>>>>three-wheelers.
>
> [snip speedy]
>
>>Guy does go on and on about racers and speed records, as if any of that
>>applied to anyone on this group.
>
> You said two-wheelers are easier to ride at speed. Racers and people
> setting speed records tend to ride at speed, often for quite long
> periods. Perhaps you men "at speed" in the sense of "above walking
> pace" - as far as I'm concerned "at speed" implies not less than
> 20mph, and I have found that both bikes and trikes are equally easy at
> speeds up to 40mph. Since I don't own a trike I've not had the
> opportunity to try one at speeds above that, but my SWB low bike is
> fine at 50 and I have no reason to believe a trike would be different
> as I have several trike-owning friends who tell me that their
> machines, too, feel good at 50mph and above.
By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most folks
ride their bikes at about 10 mph. I am never concerned with racers and speed
records and have no interest in those subjects. By the way, I cannot ride a
SWB recumbent at more than 30 mph maximum. 25 mph is better. Even at 30 mph
I feel like the wobble is going to cause me to crash. Anyone going 50 mph on
a bicycle should have their head examined.
[...]
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 07 May 2005 18:02:11
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:37:38 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <BKidnc016LNPc-HfRVn-sQ@prairiewave.com >:
>By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most folks
>ride their bikes at about 10 mph.
Even my eight-year-old rides at 12mph.
At speed means 20mph or more. You can't call it "at speed" if it's
average trundling pace or not much more, that's just silly.
>I cannot ride a
>SWB recumbent at more than 30 mph maximum. 25 mph is better. Even at 30 mph
>I feel like the wobble is going to cause me to crash. Anyone going 50 mph on
>a bicycle should have their head examined.
So you have no real experience of riding SWB at speed. I suggest,
then, that you leave judgments of performance of bikes at speed to
those who have actually tried it.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
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Date: 07 May 2005 13:12:19
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:uvsp71d39hl8r5jui8q8u3u9iog98rg6s1@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:37:38 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <BKidnc016LNPc-HfRVn-sQ@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most
>>folks
>>ride their bikes at about 10 mph.
>
> Even my eight-year-old rides at 12mph.
In other words, ABOUT 10 mph! Did you know that all week long group bike
tours are set up so that a day's ride can be completed by a cyclist
traveling at 10 mph. That right there ought to tell you something.
> At speed means 20mph or more. You can't call it "at speed" if it's
> average trundling pace or not much more, that's just silly.
Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
silly?
>>I cannot ride a
>>SWB recumbent at more than 30 mph maximum. 25 mph is better. Even at 30
>>mph
>>I feel like the wobble is going to cause me to crash. Anyone going 50 mph
>>on
>>a bicycle should have their head examined.
>
> So you have no real experience of riding SWB at speed. I suggest,
> then, that you leave judgments of performance of bikes at speed to
> those who have actually tried it.
No, I have three SWB recumbents and I ride them all rather well. By at speed
I mean above 15 mph, not 20 mph. Jeez! We can't even agree on terms. If you
are riding your SWB at 50 mph down a hill, be sure to stop in at the nearest
psychiatrist and have your head examined.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 07 May 2005 16:17:41
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:hvudnYot1q2ZmODfRVn-qg@prairiewave.com...
>
> Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
> silly?
Thats a joke right?
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Date: 08 May 2005 01:14:06
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:dPidnRCQjM1qsuDfRVn-pw@comcast.com...
>
> "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net> wrote in message
> news:hvudnYot1q2ZmODfRVn-qg@prairiewave.com...
>>
>> Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
>> silly?
>
> Thats a joke right?
The real test of cycling skill is how slow you can go, not how fast you can
go. I can go at 3 mph on certain recumbents. Others I can only go 4 mph. The
question is - how slow can you go?
Needless to say, we are not talking about trikes here as I can sit on them
all day at a complete standstill. Try that on any two-wheeler, recumbent or
otherwise.
Ed Dolan the Serious - Minnesota
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Date: 08 May 2005 08:56:43
From: HHS
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net > wrote in message
news:A_mdnedQPuStM-DfRVn-jw@prairiewave.com...
>
>
> The real test of cycling skill is how slow you can go, not how fast you
> can go. I can go at 3 mph on certain recumbents. Others I can only go 4
> mph. The question is - how slow can you go?
>
> Needless to say, we are not talking about trikes here as I can sit on them
> all day at a complete standstill. Try that on any two-wheeler, recumbent
> or otherwise.
>
>
The historical true test of recumbent cycling skill has been a rider's
ability to open and eat a Power Bar while riding. Of course those tricycles
for the balance challenged wouldn't count in skill tests of this sort.
Just as our schools are now making testing fair for all, Power Bar has made
their wrapper easier to open and the bar itself softer and easier to eat.
One might say the bar has been lowered. Most unfortunate.
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Date: 08 May 2005 15:05:06
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sun, 8 May 2005 08:56:43 -0500, "HHS" <hhs@hhsville.com > wrote in
message <B6udnWsT3okUh-PfRVn-qQ@giganews.com >:
>Just as our schools are now making testing fair for all, Power Bar has made
>their wrapper easier to open and the bar itself softer and easier to eat.
>One might say the bar has been lowered. Most unfortunate.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<applause >
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 07 May 2005 19:55:25
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:12:19 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <hvudnYot1q2ZmODfRVn-qg@prairiewave.com >:
>>>By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most
>>>folks ride their bikes at about 10 mph.
>> Even my eight-year-old rides at 12mph.
>In other words, ABOUT 10 mph!
Exactly. Over 10mph, and he's only eight years old and small for his
age at that.
>Did you know that all week long group bike
>tours are set up so that a day's ride can be completed by a cyclist
>traveling at 10 mph. That right there ought to tell you something.
Yes, that trundly tourists on heavily laden bikes go slowly.
A "moderate" pace ride with my touring club is 12mph, "brisk" is
14mph+ - but that's *average*, which means cruising much faster off
the hills. I'm no racer but I can average 20mph for two hours on an
upright.
>> At speed means 20mph or more. You can't call it "at speed" if it's
>> average trundling pace or not much more, that's just silly.
>Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
>silly?
Very few cyclists? Really? On a flat road in still air I'd say 20mph
is quite achievable by any reasonably fit cyclist. And don't forget
the downhills. So to characterise 10-15mph as "at speed" is plainly
silly.
>> So you have no real experience of riding SWB at speed. I suggest,
>> then, that you leave judgments of performance of bikes at speed to
>> those who have actually tried it.
>No, I have three SWB recumbents and I ride them all rather well.
But slowly.
>By at speed I mean above 15 mph, not 20 mph.
That is not "at speed" by any realistic definition.
>Jeez! We can't even agree on terms. If you
>are riding your SWB at 50 mph down a hill, be sure to stop in at the nearest
>psychiatrist and have your head examined.
I'd be past before he got the door open. If you've never tried
hacking down a good long downhill straight as fast as you can possibly
go, then you've not lived!
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 08 May 2005 01:07:10
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:ff3q71pqrlos42rum8aruv404salgpge7h@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 May 2005 13:12:19 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <hvudnYot1q2ZmODfRVn-qg@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>>>By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most
>>>>folks ride their bikes at about 10 mph.
>
>>> Even my eight-year-old rides at 12mph.
>
>>In other words, ABOUT 10 mph!
>
> Exactly. Over 10mph, and he's only eight years old and small for his
> age at that.
>
>>Did you know that all week long group bike
>>tours are set up so that a day's ride can be completed by a cyclist
>>traveling at 10 mph. That right there ought to tell you something.
>
> Yes, that trundly tourists on heavily laden bikes go slowly.
Yes, the more you carry the slower you go. It seems I am always carrying at
least 10 pounds even on rides that last only a few hours.
> A "moderate" pace ride with my touring club is 12mph, "brisk" is
> 14mph+ - but that's *average*, which means cruising much faster off
> the hills. I'm no racer but I can average 20mph for two hours on an
> upright.
My average speed for about 15 years was 14 mph. It is less than that now.
There are many riders who can average 20 mph, but they are serious riders
and not the kind of casual riders that I see every day around here.
>>> At speed means 20mph or more. You can't call it "at speed" if it's
>>> average trundling pace or not much more, that's just silly.
>
>>Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
>>silly?
>
> Very few cyclists? Really? On a flat road in still air I'd say 20mph
> is quite achievable by any reasonably fit cyclist. And don't forget
> the downhills. So to characterise 10-15mph as "at speed" is plainly
> silly.
Don't forget the uphills is more to the point, especially on a recumbent
(which are notorious for being poor hill climbers).
>>> So you have no real experience of riding SWB at speed. I suggest,
>>> then, that you leave judgments of performance of bikes at speed to
>>> those who have actually tried it.
>
>>No, I have three SWB recumbents and I ride them all rather well.
>
> But slowly.
>
>>By at speed I mean above 15 mph, not 20 mph.
>
> That is not "at speed" by any realistic definition.
>
>>Jeez! We can't even agree on terms. If you
>>are riding your SWB at 50 mph down a hill, be sure to stop in at the
>>nearest
>>psychiatrist and have your head examined.
>
> I'd be past before he got the door open. If you've never tried
> hacking down a good long downhill straight as fast as you can possibly
> go, then you've not lived!
I have only tried it once and it took at least a year off of my life and
added a few gray hairs. No thank you! I will continue to poke along in my
accustomed fashion and outlive the lot of you.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 08 May 2005 08:03:23
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sun, 8 May 2005 01:07:10 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <xaKdnby_2tMNMeDfRVn-gA@prairiewave.com >:
>My average speed for about 15 years was 14 mph. It is less than that now.
>There are many riders who can average 20 mph, but they are serious riders
>and not the kind of casual riders that I see every day around here.
So to characterise your average trundling pace as "at speed" is
plainly silly. There is no doubt that in order to average 14mph you
would have had to exceed 20mph at least some of the time.
>>>Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
>>>silly?
>> Very few cyclists? Really? On a flat road in still air I'd say 20mph
>> is quite achievable by any reasonably fit cyclist. And don't forget
>> the downhills. So to characterise 10-15mph as "at speed" is plainly
>> silly.
>Don't forget the uphills is more to the point, especially on a recumbent
>(which are notorious for being poor hill climbers).
Who said maintain an average speed of 15mph? I can maintain a speed
of 20mph on the flat almost indefinitely. That is a reasonable
cruising speed for me. With effort I can average that for a two hour
ride. So to qualify as "at speed" it really has to be faster than
that.
>> If you've never tried
>> hacking down a good long downhill straight as fast as you can possibly
>> go, then you've not lived!
>I have only tried it once and it took at least a year off of my life and
>added a few gray hairs. No thank you! I will continue to poke along in my
>accustomed fashion and outlive the lot of you.
I consider a ride very poor if I don't hit at least 30mph.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
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Date: 08 May 2005 03:42:42
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <uce@ftc.gov > wrote in message
news:d7er719e4eg8gqmp31iunuhr28qvbr7mjg@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 8 May 2005 01:07:10 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net>
> wrote in message <xaKdnby_2tMNMeDfRVn-gA@prairiewave.com>:
>
>>My average speed for about 15 years was 14 mph. It is less than that now.
>>There are many riders who can average 20 mph, but they are serious riders
>>and not the kind of casual riders that I see every day around here.
>
> So to characterise your average trundling pace as "at speed" is
> plainly silly. There is no doubt that in order to average 14mph you
> would have had to exceed 20mph at least some of the time.
I am a fairly serious rider but obviously not as serious a rider as you are.
I seldom exceed 20 mph except when going down the few hills that exist
hereabouts. And I am just about the fastest cyclist in this region. 90% of
all other riders I encounter are slower than me.
>>>>Very few cyclists can maintain a speed of 15 mph. I wonder who is being
>>>>silly?
>
>>> Very few cyclists? Really? On a flat road in still air I'd say 20mph
>>> is quite achievable by any reasonably fit cyclist. And don't forget
>>> the downhills. So to characterise 10-15mph as "at speed" is plainly
>>> silly.
>
>>Don't forget the uphills is more to the point, especially on a recumbent
>>(which are notorious for being poor hill climbers).
>
> Who said maintain an average speed of 15mph? I can maintain a speed
> of 20mph on the flat almost indefinitely. That is a reasonable
> cruising speed for me. With effort I can average that for a two hour
> ride. So to qualify as "at speed" it really has to be faster than
> that.
Guy, meet k. The two of you are kindred spirits even though seperated by
an ocean.
There are exercise rides in which one likes to get one's speed up, but by
far the majority of my rides are casual rides (smell the roses) in which I
prefer to go rather slow. The slow rides are always the most enjoyable. Try
it sometime. You might like it. That is the whole purpose of a recumbent, to
be able to ride slowly, take in the sights and to be perfectly comfortable
doing so.
>>> If you've never tried
>>> hacking down a good long downhill straight as fast as you can possibly
>>> go, then you've not lived!
>
>>I have only tried it once and it took at least a year off of my life and
>>added a few gray hairs. No thank you! I will continue to poke along in my
>>accustomed fashion and outlive the lot of you.
>
> I consider a ride very poor if I don't hit at least 30mph.
I used to like to hit that speed too, but I have given it up. I need
downhills in order to achieve anything like that. 20 mph is now pretty much
my top speed on the flats.
Ed Dolan the Slow - Minnesota
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Date: 08 May 2005 11:19:17
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Sun, 8 May 2005 03:42:42 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <edolan@iw.net >
wrote in message <gsKdnTbU--GZTODfRVn-jg@prairiewave.com >:
>> to characterise your average trundling pace as "at speed" is
>> plainly silly. There is no doubt that in order to average 14mph you
>> would have had to exceed 20mph at least some of the time.
>I am a fairly serious rider but obviously not as serious a rider as you are.
>I seldom exceed 20 mph except when going down the few hills that exist
>hereabouts. And I am just about the fastest cyclist in this region. 90% of
>all other riders I encounter are slower than me.
You are old, Father William...
>> Who said maintain an average speed of 15mph? I can maintain a speed
>> of 20mph on the flat almost indefinitely. That is a reasonable
>> cruising speed for me. With effort I can average that for a two hour
>> ride. So to qualify as "at speed" it really has to be faster than
>> that.
>Guy, meet k. The two of you are kindred spirits even though seperated by
>an ocean.
Maybe, maybe not. I am just an everyday commuter cyclist who rides
fast.
>There are exercise rides in which one likes to get one's speed up, but by
>far the majority of my rides are casual rides (smell the roses) in which I
>prefer to go rather slow.
I prefer to go rather fast all the time, since the vast majority of my
rides are utility journeys.
>The slow rides are always the most enjoyable. Try
>it sometime. You might like it.
BTDT. Not for me, rally. I quite like a sporty club ride on a
Wednesday (averaging maybe 18mph).
>That is the whole purpose of a recumbent, to
>be able to ride slowly, take in the sights and to be perfectly comfortable
>doing so.
For you. For me it's to reduce wind resistance. I ride into a
prevailing wind quite often.
>> I consider a ride very poor if I don't hit at least 30mph.
>I used to like to hit that speed too, but I have given it up. I need
>downhills in order to achieve anything like that. 20 mph is now pretty much
>my top speed on the flats.
Mine too. So "at speed" is faster than that. But it doesn't take
much of a slope to hit 30 on a low bike.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| |
Date: 05 May 2005 13:08:43
From:
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
|
On Wed, 4 May 2005 09:22:40 -0400, "Ohio Jerry"
<jerroz3@brightfreaking.net > wrote:
>I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
>reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
>or doesn't have.
>
>Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
>pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
>inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
>hard on the pedals?
>
>Or what?
>
>Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
>
>Thanks.
>Jerry
>
Having owned 4 tadpoles let me assure you that they all do not have
it. One engineering type friend says he believes it is frame flex
induce by mashing. In general he agrees with all your points.
There seems to be a connection to just how far forward the pedals are
in relation to the front wheels.
Learning to pedal correctly, that is to say, spin lightly, rather than
mash the pedals, helps a lot. A higher cadence doesn't hurt either,
but is not required.
Trikes are a gas, I've just about stopped riding two wheels, but they,
like bikes are compromises. I started at the budget end of trike
models and found them unsatisfactory. Without question, the Hellbent
Spitfire RS24, which has some pedal steer, but excellent in road
handling details, and the Windcheetah Supersport, a thoroughbred that
shows clearly it 20 years of development, are head and shoulders above
the budget trikes, but then they cost twice as much.
The Supersport offers almost no noticeable pedal steer
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Date: 05 May 2005 15:09:21
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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mike.euritt@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Having owned 4 tadpoles let me assure you that they all do not have
> it. One engineering type friend says he believes it is frame flex
> induce by mashing.
My 'bent bike suffers from pedal steer... *if* I mash. Change down and
spin, problem goes away.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 05 May 2005 05:18:07
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"Ohio Jerry" <jerroz3@brightfreaking.net > wrote in message
news:s6OdndbR1Kw_UeXfRVn-vQ@bright.net...
> I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
> reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
> or doesn't have.
>
> Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
> pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
> inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
> hard on the pedals?
>
> Or what?
>
> Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard. Some tadpole trikes exhibit this
strange behavior more than others, but they all have it. Only very skillful
riders can avoid it. Most of the rest of us cannot.
The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal steer. Even the
fabled Greenspeed is not immune to this phenomenon. I find that LWB deltas
are much better in this regard. The secret to riding a tadpole trike is to
keep your speed down to about 15 mph. Above that, the pedal steer starts to
kick in, at least for me. I have seen tadpole trikes practically veer into
traffic at speed the riders had so little control. Just keep your speed down
and you will be fine. Anyone who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler
anyway.
By the way, there are many excellent articles on tadpole trikes in the
latest issue of RCN. Highly recommended reading for anyone who might be
interested in these kind of trikes.
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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Date: 05 May 2005 20:14:15
From: DD
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Ohio Jerry" <jerroz3@brightfreaking.net> wrote in message
> news:s6OdndbR1Kw_UeXfRVn-vQ@bright.net...
>
>>I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
>>reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
>>or doesn't have.
>>
>>Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
>>pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
>>inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
>>hard on the pedals?
>>
>>Or what?
>>
>>Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
>
>
> Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard. Some tadpole trikes exhibit this
> strange behavior more than others, but they all have it. Only very skillful
> riders can avoid it. Most of the rest of us cannot.
>
> The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal steer. Even the
> fabled Greenspeed is not immune to this phenomenon. I find that LWB deltas
> are much better in this regard. The secret to riding a tadpole trike is to
> keep your speed down to about 15 mph. Above that, the pedal steer starts to
> kick in, at least for me. I have seen tadpole trikes practically veer into
> traffic at speed the riders had so little control. Just keep your speed down
> and you will be fine. Anyone who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler
> anyway.
>
> By the way, there are many excellent articles on tadpole trikes in the
> latest issue of RCN. Highly recommended reading for anyone who might be
> interested in these kind of trikes.
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>
>
I would tend to disagree on this, although no offence intended ED, that
speed is the main factor in pedal steer. Try a lower gear and higher
cadence, not the same necessarily as when you grind out the big gears
with the 62T chainring.
Also pedal steer can be tuned down at the manufacture stage by altering
the steering geometry. Yes even Greenspeed have pedal steer but they
have generally got their steering right and have considered pedal steer
but felt that to go the whole way with kingpins and such would cost to
much for handling performance. I know that they have consulted other
trike manufacturers before considering this on recent trike designs.
Having raced my GTR trike at 55km/h and spent many an afternoon happily
bombing down hills at 85km/h I can tell you that pedal steer fades into
the background when the road ahead is rushing at you. You don't notice
it, it isn't a great factor, not an issue that should stop you buying a
tadpole trike instead of a delta.
Back to Ohio Jerry's query you should also remember that pedal steer is
a factor in upright bikes also, just that one of the first things that
you learn when first riding a bike (how long ago was that?) is the
minute movements of the handlebars to compensate. Tadpole trikes
wouldn't have a greater pedal steer factor than delta trikes if they
didn't have that crankset sticking way out in front of the frame on a
boom, but as I said, there are other factors in the design of the
tadpole trike that you are looking at that may affect this.
Designing trikes and getting the steering right I will leave to the
experts. My lowracer has eliminated pedal steer and all other steer, it
only travels in nice straight lines, no corners please, due to the
chainline. Simplicity.
Dave Doust. AU.
P.S slowing down because you are afraid of pedal steer at high speed is
time wasted looking at too little passing scenery. Scenery should be a
blur, except for toilet breaks.
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Date: 05 May 2005 19:59:17
From: Edward Dolan
Subject: Re: Whither Pedal Steer
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"DD" <me@u.com > wrote in message
news:427a0e18$0$18508$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Ohio Jerry" <jerroz3@brightfreaking.net> wrote in message
>> news:s6OdndbR1Kw_UeXfRVn-vQ@bright.net...
>>
>>>I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
>>>reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
>>>or doesn't have.
>>>
>>>Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
>>>pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
>>>inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
>>>hard on the pedals?
>>>
>>>Or what?
>>>
>>>Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?
>>
>>
>> Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard. Some tadpole trikes exhibit this
>> strange behavior more than others, but they all have it. Only very
>> skillful riders can avoid it. Most of the rest of us cannot.
>>
>> The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal steer. Even
>> the fabled Greenspeed is not immune to this phenomenon. I find that LWB
>> deltas are much better in this regard. The secret to riding a tadpole
>> trike is to keep your speed down to about 15 mph. Above that, the pedal
>> steer starts to kick in, at least for me. I have seen tadpole trikes
>> practically veer into traffic at speed the riders had so little control.
>> Just keep your speed down and you will be fine. Anyone who wants to be
>> fast should be on a two-wheeler anyway.
>>
>> By the way, there are many excellent articles on tadpole trikes in the
>> latest issue of RCN. Highly recommended reading for anyone who might be
>> interested in these kind of trikes.
>>
>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>>
>>
> I would tend to disagree on this, although no offence intended ED, that
> speed is the main factor in pedal steer. Try a lower gear and higher
> cadence, not the same necessarily as when you grind out the big gears with
> the 62T chainring.
Yes, but this goes to my point about being a skilled rider. I do not mash
gears ever - way too lazy for that. My spin skill is only normal and no
better or worse than most others. The only folks I have seen who can ride a
tadpole at speed are very skilled riders who know how to spin at a high
cadence. Others are veering all over the road at speeds much above 20 mph.
> Also pedal steer can be tuned down at the manufacture stage by altering
> the steering geometry. Yes even Greenspeed have pedal steer but they have
> generally got their steering right and have considered pedal steer but
> felt that to go the whole way with kingpins and such would cost to much
> for handling performance. I know that they have consulted other trike
> manufacturers before considering this on recent trike designs.
Pedal steer has to be considered by every trike manufacturer as it remains a
major problem. I have ridden the Greenspeed and it does not seem any better
than any of the others. I have an early version WizWheelz myself.
> Having raced my GTR trike at 55km/h and spent many an afternoon happily
> bombing down hills at 85km/h I can tell you that pedal steer fades into
> the background when the road ahead is rushing at you. You don't notice it,
> it isn't a great factor, not an issue that should stop you buying a
> tadpole trike instead of a delta.
Mr. Doust is obviously a very skilled rider.
> Back to Ohio Jerry's query you should also remember that pedal steer is a
> factor in upright bikes also, just that one of the first things that you
> learn when first riding a bike (how long ago was that?) is the minute
> movements of the handlebars to compensate. Tadpole trikes wouldn't have a
> greater pedal steer factor than delta trikes if they didn't have that
> crankset sticking way out in front of the frame on a boom, but as I said,
> there are other factors in the design of the tadpole trike that you are
> looking at that may affect this.
I also have two delta trikes with very long wheelbases and there is hardly
any pedal steer at all with them, no matter the speed. I have never noticed
pedal steer on any kind of two-wheeler, not like you notice it on a tadpole.
[...]
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
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