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Main
Date: 13 Apr 2005 18:48:57
From: rayswrld
Subject: considering my first bent
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Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to
the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent of
the ride. Prior to this year any back pain I experienced in my normal
every day routine wouldn't effect my riding at all. But with this
change, and the discomfort making long rides less desirous I am thinking
about a bent. Is back pain a reason to make the change? Where would I
find information on types of bents and how to proceed? I have a lot of
other questions but will start there.
Thanks.
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Date: 19 Apr 2005 18:55:34
From: rayswrld
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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Okay, while working up to making my appointment to see the sports doctor
i have some more questions. No, i haven't made the appointment yet.
Procrastination is my middle name. Why do today what can be put off til
tomorrow? I guess my thinking is that by not seeing a doctor I can hope
that all is not as bad as I know it probably is.
So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?
Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
toeclips? Or some other alternative?
That's it for now. :-)
rayswrld wrote:
> Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to
> the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent of
> the ride. Prior to this year any back pain I experienced in my normal
> every day routine wouldn't effect my riding at all. But with this
> change, and the discomfort making long rides less desirous I am thinking
> about a bent. Is back pain a reason to make the change? Where would I
> find information on types of bents and how to proceed? I have a lot of
> other questions but will start there.
> Thanks.
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Date: 26 Apr 2005 20:21:27
From: Simon Kellett
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > writes:
> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy?
In general you can look out for rowing shorts: basically the same
long, close cut in stretch fabrics, but no padding.
--
Simon Kellett, Darmstadt, Germany
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Date: 27 Apr 2005 10:53:48
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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Simon Kellett wrote:
> "Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> writes:
>
>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy?
>
> In general you can look out for rowing shorts: basically the same
> long, close cut in stretch fabrics, but no padding.
I visted the branch of the shop in question, but their range was this: crap.
I have thus ordered a couple of pairs from the InterWeb - one like wot Guy's
are and one of the bloke's version of the ones recommended by Roos. Should
this not work, there will be Deaths...
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
Flies are the work of Stan, and should be killed by all means available.
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Date: 26 Apr 2005 20:18:37
From: Simon Kellett
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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Victor Kan <victor@usenet.NO_UCEloopdrive.net > writes:
> That's why you need one of these:
>
> http://www.wallbike.com/oddsnends.html#bg
Full details at http://www.bananaguard.com :-)
--
Simon Kellett, Darmstadt, Germany
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 09:42:45
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
rayswrld wrote:
> So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
> can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
> holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
> would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?
It's a non issue, at least on my Streetmachine. It might be harder on a
lowracer or something like that. However, if you do hit a big hole you
take it through the seat, rather than through the wrists, which is a lot
nicer.
I have full suspension, and on a big descent my pal on her DF and me on
the 'bent both mistook a large pothole full of water for a small surface
puddle, and the result of us both going through was she was in
considerable discomfort and nearly lost control at speed, and I got to
find out the sound of my front fork bottoming out.
> Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
> clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
> toeclips? Or some other alternative?
No need for padded shorts, or padded mitts either. Cycle jerseys or
jackets with back pockets are actually a nuisance, as you get the seam
pushed against your back.
Clipless pedals are a Very Good Idea, as they mean you don't need to
hold your feet up.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 13:05:44
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:42:45 +0100, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>> So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
>> can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and
>> holes in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle
>> would prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?
>It's a non issue, at least on my Streetmachine. It might be harder on a
>lowracer or something like that.
Not on my Stinger either - how much lower would you ride on streets?
Not much I'm guessing.
>No need for padded shorts, or padded mitts either. Cycle jerseys or
>jackets with back pockets are actually a nuisance, as you get the seam
>pushed against your back.
I wear standard cycle jerseys and jackets because they work better for
me than non-bike ones in every respect other than having pockets at
the back. I don't wear padded shorts on the 'bent.
>Clipless pedals are a Very Good Idea, as they mean you don't need to
>hold your feet up.
I would go as far as to say that clipless pedals are, on a two-wheel
'bent at least, essential. On a three-wheeler you could get away with
tightly fastened clips and straps or foot boards. I would not want to
ride a 'bent (except maybe one of those Giant Revive style ones)
without my feet being firmly attached to the pedals.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 09:55:29
From: LSMike
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null > wrote in message
news:h6hc619cs5hudhvi3cslqgk7sllrqa3lc4@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:42:45 +0100, Peter Clinch
> I wear standard cycle jerseys and jackets because they work better for
> me than non-bike ones in every respect other than having pockets at
> the back. I don't wear padded shorts on the 'bent.
Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen on
ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the end of a
bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or something else
closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 12:13:34
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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LSMike wrote:
> Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen on
> ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the end of a
> bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or something else
> closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
The Rohan ones I often use are baggy. No special seals over the leg
ends, I've never yet found /any/ remotely substantial insects flying up
them in about 4 years of recumbency, so I suspect the wasp fear is
mainly fear.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 20:43:11
From: Mike Rice
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:13:34 +0100, Peter Clinch
<p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > wrote:
>LSMike wrote:
>
>> Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen on
>> ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the end of a
>> bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or something else
>> closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
>
>The Rohan ones I often use are baggy. No special seals over the leg
>ends, I've never yet found /any/ remotely substantial insects flying up
>them in about 4 years of recumbency, so I suspect the wasp fear is
>mainly fear.
>
>Pete.
While I've never had a wasp up my shorts, one did get blown into my
helmet last fall, worst sting I've had in years.
Mike
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 12:37:33
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
>> LSMike wrote:
>> Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen
>> on ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the
>> end of a bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or
>> something else closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
Baggy shorts with cinch or elastic leg ends are good if only to help
keep your shorts from riding up or billowing in the wind, nevermind
protecting against flying bugs.
These are pretty good:
http://www.exofficio.com/product_details.aspx?item_guid=a7768434-49d5-4bd5-ac94-3657c66ebe81
though the leg cinch can be difficult to adjust with one hand, and the
mesh liner inside has thick seams that can be uncomfortable sometimes.
Peter Clinch wrote:
> The Rohan ones I often use are baggy. No special seals over the leg
> ends, I've never yet found /any/ remotely substantial insects flying up
> them in about 4 years of recumbency, so I suspect the wasp fear is
> mainly fear.
I had at least three bug impacts on my commute home last night, and that
was just the ones I noticed because they were bugs that flew into my
head. I got two small ones in my mouth area (yuck!) and one big one at
my ear (judging by how loud the impact was), from the side!
If big bugs are flying into my ear from the side, I'd think it is no
less likely for them to be scooped up by baggy shorts billowing in the wind.
Maybe wasps are ster or otherwise know to avoid flying into folks on
bikes, or maybe there are fewer bugs where you live than in the
Southeastern U.S. where I live.
I've even had a large flying bug (a bumblebee) literally fly circles
around me while I'm riding. Maybe it was because I was riding on my
yellow and black trike, resembling a target of its affections? :-)
--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 14:31:39
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Victor Kan wrote:
> I had at least three bug impacts on my commute home last night, and that
> was just the ones I noticed because they were bugs that flew into my
> head. I got two small ones in my mouth area (yuck!) and one big one at
> my ear (judging by how loud the impact was), from the side!
I get plenty of impacts (and I agree they taste /disgusting/), but
despite that none have flown up my shorts, at least that I've noticed.
Maybe because unlike my head they've legs and feet preceeding the
openings to warn things away?
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 12:02:12
From: Roos Eisma
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk > writes:
>LSMike wrote:
>> Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen on
>> ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the end of a
>> bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or something else
>> closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
>The Rohan ones I often use are baggy. No special seals over the leg
>ends, I've never yet found /any/ remotely substantial insects flying up
>them in about 4 years of recumbency, so I suspect the wasp fear is
>mainly fear.
It also depends on whether your legs are baggy or twiggy ;)
Roos
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 12:14:04
From: LSMike
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"Roos Eisma" <roos@xs4all.nl > wrote in message
news:42679644$0$82850$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> Peter Clinch <p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk> writes:
>
>>LSMike wrote:
>
>>> Talking about shorts, do any of you wear baggy shorts? I'm not keen on
>>> ordinary baggy shorts since I don't want my delicate bits at the end of
>>> a
>>> bee/wasp trap, but what about shorts that have elastic or something else
>>> closing the leg ends? I've not tried anything like that.
>
>>The Rohan ones I often use are baggy. No special seals over the leg
>>ends, I've never yet found /any/ remotely substantial insects flying up
>>them in about 4 years of recumbency, so I suspect the wasp fear is
>>mainly fear.
>
> It also depends on whether your legs are baggy or twiggy ;)
>
> Roos
*Chuckle*. They are twiggy unfortunately. I've had wasp damage on my
motorcycle a couple times now, so I'm perhaps a little gunshy. :)
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 15:29:18
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
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Quoth "Just zis Guy, you know?" <norfolk.inspam@dev.null >:
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> I wear standard cycle jerseys and jackets because they work better for
> me than non-bike ones in every respect other than having pockets at
> the back. I don't wear padded shorts on the 'bent.
From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are fine up to
~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing) symptoms...
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
Here, take these cheese-shaped stilts. You'll know when to use them.
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 09:49:25
From: Roos Eisma
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > writes:
>From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are fine up to
>~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing) symptoms...
I use Ronhills "Women's Elite Lycra Shorts" - running shorts.
Roos
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 11:00:27
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Roos Eisma wrote:
> "Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> writes:
>
>>From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are fine up to
>
>>~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing) symptoms...
>
>
> I use Ronhills "Women's Elite Lycra Shorts" - running shorts.
Rather fetchingly modelled at
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/tdn4.htm
There is, IIRC, a bloke's version
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 14:27:42
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
<smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote:
>From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are fine up to
>~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing) symptoms...
http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
their end-of-season sale racks.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/Web/public.nsf/Documents/bike_optima_stinger
At the top are my favourite pair, but after 3 years of use they are
about done in now.
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 14:41:27
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
> <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are
>> fine up to ~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing)
>> symptoms...
>
> http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
> their end-of-season sale racks.
They have a branch just over the river from the Nut Mines. If 'tis not
raining tomorrow, I shall go for a stroll...
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
History!
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 10:30:37
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
And if you're on the left coast of the colonies http://www.kucharick.com
have very nice lycra shorts with a thin liner to protect the nether bits
from chafing at the seams.
"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:3cn4d6F6ot4qpU1@individual.net...
> Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
>> <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are
>>> fine up to ~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing)
>>> symptoms...
>>
>> http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
>> their end-of-season sale racks.
>
> They have a branch just over the river from the Nut Mines. If 'tis not
> raining tomorrow, I shall go for a stroll...
>
> --
> Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
> Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
> History!
>
>
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 21:11:13
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
I have 2 Kucharick shorts, excellent quality
"Al Luminium" <al@lowisfast.com > wrote in message
news:426676dc$1_1@127.0.0.1...
> And if you're on the left coast of the colonies http://www.kucharick.com
> have very nice lycra shorts with a thin liner to protect the nether bits
> from chafing at the seams.
> "Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:3cn4d6F6ot4qpU1@individual.net...
> > Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> >> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
> >> <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are
> >>> fine up to ~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing)
> >>> symptoms...
> >>
> >> http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
> >> their end-of-season sale racks.
> >
> > They have a branch just over the river from the Nut Mines. If 'tis not
> > raining tomorrow, I shall go for a stroll...
> >
> > --
> > Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
> > Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
> > History!
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----
|
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 18:29:15
From: Joshua Goldberg
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Anyone ever try riding in the Scottish tradition re: au natural beneath the
kilt?
Am going to have an enclosed nose cone and am seriously thinking of riding
with a Kilt.
"k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4uydnQeTI4TllvrfRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>I have 2 Kucharick shorts, excellent quality
>
> "Al Luminium" <al@lowisfast.com> wrote in message
> news:426676dc$1_1@127.0.0.1...
>> And if you're on the left coast of the colonies http://www.kucharick.com
>> have very nice lycra shorts with a thin liner to protect the nether bits
>> from chafing at the seams.
>> "Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:3cn4d6F6ot4qpU1@individual.net...
>> > Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
>> >> <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are
>> >>> fine up to ~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing)
>> >>> symptoms...
>> >>
>> >> http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
>> >> their end-of-season sale racks.
>> >
>> > They have a branch just over the river from the Nut Mines. If 'tis not
>> > raining tomorrow, I shall go for a stroll...
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
>> > Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
>> > History!
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
>> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
>> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----
>
>
|
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 20:58:54
From: Mark Leuck
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Always
"Joshua Goldberg" <evsolutions@rogers.com > wrote in message
news:_8adnQ6sAJDctPXfRVn-hw@rogers.com...
> Anyone ever try riding in the Scottish tradition re: au natural beneath
the
> kilt?
> Am going to have an enclosed nose cone and am seriously thinking of riding
> with a Kilt.
>
> "k Leuck" <m..leuck@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:4uydnQeTI4TllvrfRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
> >I have 2 Kucharick shorts, excellent quality
> >
> > "Al Luminium" <al@lowisfast.com> wrote in message
> > news:426676dc$1_1@127.0.0.1...
> >> And if you're on the left coast of the colonies
http://www.kucharick.com
> >> have very nice lycra shorts with a thin liner to protect the nether
bits
> >> from chafing at the seams.
> >> "Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:3cn4d6F6ot4qpU1@individual.net...
> >> > Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:30:07 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
> >> >> <smert.spamionam@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are
> >> >>> fine up to ~100 km but then start causing painful (and
embarrassing)
> >> >>> symptoms...
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/ opposite Reading Station, usually from
> >> >> their end-of-season sale racks.
> >> >
> >> > They have a branch just over the river from the Nut Mines. If 'tis
not
> >> > raining tomorrow, I shall go for a stroll...
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
> >> > Historians' Right To Work Campaign - We Demand A Continuing Supply Of
> >> > History!
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> >> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
> >
> >
>
>
|
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Date: 20 Apr 2005 14:13:05
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Dave Larrington wrote:
> From whence cometh thy unpadded shorts, Guy? My padded ones are fine up to
> ~100 km but then start causing painful (and embarrassing) symptoms...
My shorts of choice on tour are Rohan Goas. The bastards have, of
course, "improved" them into something worse ("Essential Shorts"), but
there's plenty of freedom of movement still and they seem a bit more
socially acceptable off the bike than most cycle shorts. Light,
windproof[1] and fast drying.
Sometimes I wear running shorts inna wrapover stylee. These are very
comfy, though some may find them a little risque as into the wind people
may see a peek of the integral coolmax brief concealing my underpants!
They're not ideal unless it's a nice day, though, and give interesting
gravel rash potential if you slide out.
Pete.
[1] excepting the drafts going up the legs, of course
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| | |
Date: 19 Apr 2005 21:29:48
From: HHS
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"rayswrld" <rayswrld@optonline.net > wrote in message
news:J1g9e.8428$V02.5619@fe08.lga...
> Okay, while working up to making my appointment to see the sports doctor i
> have some more questions. No, i haven't made the appointment yet.
> Procrastination is my middle name. Why do today what can be put off til
> tomorrow? I guess my thinking is that by not seeing a doctor I can hope
> that all is not as bad as I know it probably is.
>
> So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
> can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and holes
> in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle would
> prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?
>
> Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
> clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
> toeclips? Or some other alternative?
>
Your wife has great insight. On an upright bike you are bent over and are
afforded the best possible view of your front wheel just as it goes into a
hole or hits a bump. On a bent bike you are sitting upright (little word
play ray) and you can spot the holes and bumps before you hit them. But you
already had that figured out.
Attire? Avoid baggy shorts and shirts that make you look like the Michelin
Man and would invite roadway bees and wasps to investigate your armpits and
groin area.
Toe Clips? Please... No. You are not training for the 1958 Tour de
France.
Clipless Pedals? Of course.
Over think this if you must, but if you come up with any other conclusion
over think it again.
HHS
|
| | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 03:18:49
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
HHS wrote:
> "rayswrld" <rayswrld@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>So, my questions. My wife thinks I over think things and after this you
>>can see why. When riding a bent, how easily is it to see bumps and holes
>>in the road? I would think at a lower position the visual angle would
>>prevent long range spotting of holes. Am I wrong in this assumption?
You're not wrong. I find it much easier to spot and avoid bumps and
holes in the road when riding my DF road bike than when riding my bents
(currently ranging from a low USS trike to an OSS high racer with an USS
SWB in between).
>>Cycling attire. Not a tire, but attire. Over thinking? You bet. Same
>>clothing worn for bents as upright bikes? Also, clipless pedals? Or
>>toeclips? Or some other alternative?
You don't need chamois in your pants and you won't want rear pockets on
jerseys. But cinch legs are good, be they baggy or "hugging".
You definitely want clipless pedals, or some other mechanism to keep
your foot from falling off the pedals. Forget toeclips. It's hard
enough to reach for them on a DF, on most bents, forget it.
> Your wife has great insight. On an upright bike you are bent over and are
> afforded the best possible view of your front wheel just as it goes into a
> hole or hits a bump. On a bent bike you are sitting upright (little word
> play ray) and you can spot the holes and bumps before you hit them. But you
> already had that figured out.
I disagree and your word play doesn't fit a lot of bents that have come
on the ket in the last few years (it might fit classics like Easy
Racers, Ryans, Lightnings and BikeEs, but not Bacchettas, the various
Euro 'bents, Catrikes and the other heavily reclined bikes), but it may
be because I sit more upright on my upright, and more recumbent on my
recumbents.
This notion of being bent over and staring at your front wheel on a DF
is true only for folks riding bent over and staring at their front wheel
or craning their necks upwards. When I ride my DF, I'm not quite
looking straight ahead as on my bents, but I'm looking ahead well beyond
my front wheel.
Something similar could be said of 'bent riders who have high BB
bikes/trikes and they're staring at their cranks and feet, which block
their view of upcoming road imperfections.
--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 11:08:32
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Victor Kan wrote:
> you won't want rear pockets on jerseys.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. If one is using a compartively narrow hardshell
seat, then the outer rear pockets of a jersey are still usable, as I
frequently demonstrate to myself when I neglect to remove my cleat covers
until after I've locked the tailbox...
Use of said pockets to carry bananas, however, is Strongly Depracated
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/ >
My only hope in life is to die before I get my comeuppence.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 13:03:35
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Dave Larrington wrote:
> Up to a point, Lord Copper. If one is using a compartively narrow hardshell
> seat, then the outer rear pockets of a jersey are still usable, as I
> frequently demonstrate to myself when I neglect to remove my cleat covers
> until after I've locked the tailbox...
For me, it's not so much accessibility, but bulk causing back discomfort.
You might say that I'd pass the "pea test" (see "The Princess and the Pea").
But you're right, on a narrow hardshell, the outer pocks of the usual
three on jerseys may be useful and not cause discomfort.
--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 12:57:28
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Dave Larrington wrote:
> Use of said pockets to carry bananas, however, is Strongly Depracated
That's why you need one of these:
http://www.wallbike.com/oddsnends.html#bg
--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 13:02:06
From: Just zis Guy, you know?
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:08:32 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
<smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote:
>> you won't want rear pockets on jerseys.
>Up to a point, Lord Copper. If one is using a compartively narrow hardshell
>seat, then the outer rear pockets of a jersey are still usable, as I
>frequently demonstrate to myself when I neglect to remove my cleat covers
>until after I've locked the tailbox...
<aol >
>Use of said pockets to carry bananas, however, is Strongly Depracated
For banananananas you need a BananananananananananaMate[tm]!
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 00:54:28
From: HHS
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"Victor Kan" <victor@usenet.NO_UCEloopdrive.net > wrote in message
news:tSj9e.66913$JL2.2341435@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> I disagree and your word play doesn't fit a lot of bents that have come on
> the ket in the last few years (it might fit classics like Easy Racers,
> Ryans, Lightnings and BikeEs, but not Bacchettas, the various Euro 'bents,
> Catrikes and the other heavily reclined bikes), but it may be because I
> sit more upright on my upright, and more recumbent on my recumbents.
>
Of course you are correct - I was indeed thinking about classic recumbents.
Recent events have seen bents with new riding positions introduced. High
racers would seem to be excellent for birding and cloud watching. Low
racers provide a dog level aero riding position. Dogs giving chase are
likely to be energized by the submissive belly up riding position of the low
racer rider.
> This notion of being bent over and staring at your front wheel on a DF is
> true only for folks riding bent over and staring at their front wheel or
> craning their necks upwards. When I ride my DF, I'm not quite looking
> straight ahead as on my bents, but I'm looking ahead well beyond my front
> wheel.
>
Yore neck gotta get kinda tired after a while holdin it up like at.
> Something similar could be said of 'bent riders who have high BB
> bikes/trikes and they're staring at their cranks and feet, which block
> their view of upcoming road imperfections.
>
For those odd few who are interested in seeing more than feet, knees, sky,
dog teeth, or an impaired view of road imperfections we have the low BB,
under seat steering bikes that offer a full panoramic view of the horizon.
But nobody wants those bikes because they say they are no good at passing
uprights, which, of course, is something all recumbent riders feel obliged
to strive toward.
HHS
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 12:54:59
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
>>craning their necks upwards. When I ride my DF, I'm not quite looking
>>straight ahead as on my bents, but I'm looking ahead well beyond my front
>>wheel.
> Yore neck gotta get kinda tired after a while holdin it up like at.
The way I have my DF set up currently (handlebars even with the saddle),
I don't have to crane my neck up to look ahead. Plus, I can look up by,
uh, looking up, without changing my head position. Wonderful things,
those eyes that move/roll in different positions.
--
I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 14:16:09
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Victor Kan wrote:
> The way I have my DF set up currently (handlebars even with the saddle),
> I don't have to crane my neck up to look ahead. Plus, I can look up by,
> uh, looking up, without changing my head position. Wonderful things,
> those eyes that move/roll in different positions.
Though it takes a conscious effort to do this, not necessary on a
typical 'bent.
Unless the riding position on an upright is /very/ upright, as on a
Dutch roadster or the like, you do have a tendency to look down at the
road. I even find this on my Brompton, which is known for an upright
riding position. By contrast the Streetmachine always gives a head-up
view of where I'm actually going.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Apr 2005 05:45:18
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Quoth Victor Kan <victor@usenet.NO_UCEloopdrive.net >:
|
| |
Date: 16 Apr 2005 21:54:17
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
rayswrld wrote:
> change, and the discomfort making long rides less desirous I am thinking
> about a bent. Is back pain a reason to make the change?
Yes, though not all back problems will necessarily be helped. A
lot will, though.
> find information on types of bents and how to proceed?
If there's an upright bike type you ride then there's probably a
type of 'bent to match it (exceptions, such as downhill race
offroaders and UCI legal racers, but for most bikes, such as
tourers, sport/speed, urban, freighters etc. there are recumbent
options).
A lot of people tend to go on about wheelbases, seat styles and
position of the handlebars, but IMHO the basic functional /type/ of
cycle is the place to start. So, what sort of bike are you wanting
to replace with a recumbent?
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| |
Date: 14 Apr 2005 21:12:48
From:
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
rayswrld wrote:
> Thanks for the info and advice. I am in New Jersey and I am pretty
sure
> there are two recumbent shops within an hour of my home. I will
check
> out bentrideronline.com as well as googling.
>
> As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
> degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now
it
> is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the
case
> and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole
life,
> and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that
> that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit
in
> a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
> muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.
>
Buddy, I'm hoping I can make it another decade and a half and still be
riding. My endocrine system is, like, whacked. :-)
> As for other questions.
>
> Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
> will they be on a bent?
>
At first, they're frustrating. You can't stand up and grind up the
hills like on an upright. Gear down, find a comfortable spin, and don't
ruin your knees. After a couple months, you'll be climbing hills almost
as fast as you ever did.
(FWIW: I read in Greg Lemond's book that you shouldn't look up a big
hill if you're going for best speed. Obviously this doesn't apply to
recumbents. I'm convinced that part of the reason "recumbents are slow
up hills" is psychological.)
> Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular
bike?
>
You're generally more noticeable- you're not "the normal bicycle".
Psychology again: anything familiar and not dangerous (like an upright)
"disappears". Anything unfamiliar is dangerous until proven otherwise.
It helps if you wear a leather jacket and a spiked helmet while riding.
:-)
> Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?
>
I never have problems making left turns from the turn lane- but then I
ride in the bicycle-friendly Portland area. Your riding may vary.
> I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.
>
Everything will be different. Every ride will be in the sunshine. You
will experience a tailwind no matter what direction you go. Mothers
will want you to kiss their babies. Kids will yell "Cool bike,
mister!".
OK, OK, OK... only the last one is true. I've found in my 25 years of
recumbent building and riding that there's very little *real*
difference between riding a good upright and a good recumbent. I am
more comfortable riding my recumbents- and they are my choice for long
day rides and multi-day tours- but I also have several uprights that
serve specialized purposes.
If you're wandering around Bentrideronline, watch for postings from Jim
Verheul. He's an ex-upright racer who's switched to recumbents due to
back problems (I think). He's preparing for an assault on RAAM this
year.
Jeff
|
| | |
Date: 15 Apr 2005 08:38:37
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
<jwills@pacifier.com > wrote
>
> (FWIW: I read in Greg Lemond's book that you shouldn't look up a big
> hill if you're going for best speed.
The more distant your focus the slower the perceived speed.
An upright cyclist may focus on the patch just in front
of their bike where the apparent speed is the greatest.
> Obviously this doesn't apply to recumbents. I'm convinced
> that part of the reason "recumbents are slow
> up hills" is psychological.)
Yes.
I sometimes choose nearer, off-to-the-side, mid-range object to
focus on when tackling a long hill. Something 10-15 seconds away.
> [recumbent differences]
> Kids will yell "Cool bike, mister!".
Yes. And "how much did that cost?"
Other groups may yell, "Clown bike, dufus!" %^).
I attribute that to limited functionality of one of the two parts
of their bodies that God didn't give them enough blood to
operate both at once. %^P
Jon Meinecke
|
| |
Date: 14 Apr 2005 05:45:43
From:
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Get some professional medical advice, too. You must know what's causing
your back pain before investing in a new bike. You might just have a
great bike that doesn't fit. Recumbents can, conceivably, aggravate
some muscle or skeletal conditions. Generally, upgrading to a great
recumbent is a decision only a few can honestly regret.
david boise ID
rayswrld wrote:
> Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to
> the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent
of
> the ride. > Thanks.
|
| | |
Date: 15 Apr 2005 15:37:07
From: rayswrld
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
thanks again for all the responses.
A couple years ago I had a professional fit done for my bike. This was
after I had developed some knee problems. After the fit, the knee
problems cleared up and I was having no problems until this year. As
stated in my original post, I have had back problems for years, even
before I was riding the 3000 miles a year I do now. But, I will be
going to the doctor to confirm what i already assume to be true.
bogiesan@mac.com wrote:
> Get some professional medical advice, too. You must know what's causing
> your back pain before investing in a new bike. You might just have a
> great bike that doesn't fit. Recumbents can, conceivably, aggravate
> some muscle or skeletal conditions. Generally, upgrading to a great
> recumbent is a decision only a few can honestly regret.
>
> david boise ID
>
>
>
> rayswrld wrote:
>
>>Hi all, in the past year my long lingering back problems have come to
>
>
>>the point where riding is now accompanied by pain for fifty percent
>
> of
>
>>the ride. > Thanks.
>
>
|
| |
Date: 14 Apr 2005 07:08:55
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"rayswrld" <rayswrld@optonline.net > wrote
> [pain riding upright bikes, considering recumbents]
> Is back pain a reason to make the change?
For many, including me, yes. Also for many, we wonder
why we didn't try recumbents sooner! Recumbents are
not just for "FOGs" and people with bad backs! %^)
As in all medical matters, seek competent advise.
> Where would I find information on types of bents and
> how to proceed?
LBS (local bike shop), ideally. Not likely in most places.
Openly hostile to recumbents, in a few.
What part of the world are you in? Best to proceed by
riding as many different recumbent types as you can.
There is much more variation among recumbent bikes
than uprights.
www.bentrideronline.com is a good resource. They have links
to most manufacturers in their buying guide and have message
forums including for sale listings. Google "recumbent bike",--
there's much information on-line.
> I have a lot of other questions but will start there.
Ask away! %^) There's a ready supply of opinion here.
Jon Meinecke
I bike, therefore I am...
|
| | |
Date: 14 Apr 2005 16:11:51
From: rayswrld
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Thanks for the info and advice. I am in New Jersey and I am pretty sure
there are two recumbent shops within an hour of my home. I will check
out bentrideronline.com as well as googling.
As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now it
is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the case
and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole life,
and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that
that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit in
a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.
As for other questions.
Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
will they be on a bent?
Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?
Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?
I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.
Again thanks to anyone who has the time to answer.
ray
Jon Meinecke wrote:
> "rayswrld" <rayswrld@optonline.net> wrote
>
>>[pain riding upright bikes, considering recumbents]
>>Is back pain a reason to make the change?
>
>
> For many, including me, yes. Also for many, we wonder
> why we didn't try recumbents sooner! Recumbents are
> not just for "FOGs" and people with bad backs! %^)
>
> As in all medical matters, seek competent advise.
>
>
>>Where would I find information on types of bents and
>>how to proceed?
>
>
> LBS (local bike shop), ideally. Not likely in most places.
> Openly hostile to recumbents, in a few.
>
> What part of the world are you in? Best to proceed by
> riding as many different recumbent types as you can.
> There is much more variation among recumbent bikes
> than uprights.
>
> www.bentrideronline.com is a good resource. They have links
> to most manufacturers in their buying guide and have message
> forums including for sale listings. Google "recumbent bike",--
> there's much information on-line.
>
>
>>I have a lot of other questions but will start there.
>
>
> Ask away! %^) There's a ready supply of opinion here.
>
> Jon Meinecke
>
> I bike, therefore I am...
>
>
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Apr 2005 22:00:42
From: Peter Clinch
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
rayswrld wrote:
> Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
> will they be on a bent?
Depends on the 'bent and how you currently get up them. 'bents
tend to be heavier, but if you've got the gears and can spin them
you'll get there. Do it on a trike and you can have insanely low
gearing and never have to worry about balance at very low speed.
> Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?
I find I get more space on the 'bent. Probably the "wtf" factor... ;-)
> I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.
If you like getting out of the saddle and/or mashing big gears,
then those are habits you'll be changing. Having got out of them
on the 'bent through having no option, I do find it's changed my
upright riding for the better. Other than that it's really not
that differnet in how you do things.
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Apr 2005 07:49:50
From: Jon Meinecke
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
"rayswrld" <rayswrld@optonline.net > wrote
>
> As for my back. I have L4 and L5 disk problems, one bulging and one
> degenerating. This was diagnosed about four years ago. I think now it
> is worse and am returning to the doctor to find out if that is the case
> and if so how bad will it get. Will I be in chronic pain my whole life,
> and is my riding over? I am considering a bent in anticipation that
> that will be what I am told to do. I am in no discomfort when I sit in
> a chair or on a couch. At fifty-seven years old I would expect some
> muscular/skeletal problems but this sucks.
Consult medical professionals, but seek second/alternative opinions.
I was diagnosed with L5-S1 degenerative disc and herniation
in '98. Over a period of about two weeks, I lost 75% of muscle
control in left ankle due to pressure on nerve root. My GP
thought I'd need surgery. Physical therapy gave me back
probably 95%+. Still some symptoms, but not serious chronic
pain. I'm careful how I treat it,-- it's a life-long condition.
My physical therapist explained the condition to me better than
my physician. She explained and illustrated how the bent-forward
upright bike riding position aggravated the problem as did road
bump shock transmitted up the spine. She had never seen a
recumbent road bike, but used recumbent exercise bikes in
her exercise plan.
I cannot tolerate much indoor exercise. I bought a BikeE
AT/XL. The recumbent position (with added lumbar curve support)
and rear-wheel shock address both of the issues of an upright bike
for lower disc injuries.
> Hills? I never liked hills to begin with, so how much more difficult
> will they be on a bent?
Yes, hills are different on a recumbent. There's no standing
or otherwise largely changing body positions or muscle groups
on a recumbent to assist in hill climbing.
Spin. Spin. Spin. You may need lower gearing on a recumbent
than you needed on an upright for the same hill.
Your knees will thank you.
I was never a fast upright cyclist and am hardly so recumbent. Still,
I'm faster up hills now older and recumbent than I was younger
and upright.
> Riding in town with cars on the side? Any difference from a regular bike?
Not really. There's no bunny-hopping to jump curbs, of course.
And depending on the type of recumbent, there may be differences
in maneuverability.
I have three different types of recumbents: a CLWB (compact long
wheel base) BikeE, a LWB TourEasy, and a SWB Volae. Of the
three, the BikeE is probably the best suited for stop and go, high
traffic. It's also the least well suited for long distances and hilly
terrain.. I ride all of them in traffic, but try to avoid fast/busy
streets without bike lane or shoulders.
> Making a left turn by taking the lane? The same on a bent?
Same, pretty much. I have mirrors on all my bikes. It is somewhat
easier to look over shoulder on the two with more upright seating.
The Volae with it's more laid-back seat is somewhat harder
to look behind. Some people think lower profile of some recumbents
make them less visible to drivers. Some people add flags to their
recumbents. I haven't found this to be a problem, but then I ride
defensively, predictably. I "take the lane" when I need to and
do not ride in the gutter.
> I guess I am asking what will be different if anything.
For me, and many others, more fun! %^)
It probably depends on your expectations and experiences.
If you were a pleton-riding serious roadie, then you may
well have some adjustment to make. You may not be welcome
in club pacelines. Your friends may think you've gone over
to the "dark side". %^)
Good luck,
Jon Meinecke
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Apr 2005 05:40:02
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: considering my first bent
|
Quoth rayswrld <rayswrld@optonline.net >:
...
|
|
