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Main
Date: 26 Feb 2005 15:27:02
From: Joshua Goldberg
Subject: tandem suspension
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Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell seats?
Am having a tandem tadpole built (similar to the Stein Magnum) but with side
rails like the MASA Slingshot, but and am using 2 hardshell seats from
Optima (Baron seats). The wife and I will both be clipped into our egg
beaters....so I'd think having the seats moving around too much might mess
with our pedaling a bit. Thing is though, me thinks using simple elastomer
rings with maybe 10mm of travel to cushion the seats and minimize road
vibration is the way to go.
Other problem/confusion is we will be pulling a trailer 32" W. by 72" L. and
it will be heavy. If we opt for a rear swing arm, all that trailer weight
would likely keep the swing arm suspension pushed down all the
time...removing any benefit from it and thus making seat suspension look
better.
The tandem will have a fiberglass nose cone and the trailer will have a
fiberglass body (looks like a wide Thule).
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 15:14:45
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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Joshua Goldberg wrote:
> Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
> suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell seats?
>
> Am having a tandem tadpole built (similar to the Stein Magnum) but with side
> rails like the MASA Slingshot, but and am using 2 hardshell seats from
> Optima (Baron seats). The wife and I will both be clipped into our egg
> beaters....so I'd think having the seats moving around too much might mess
> with our pedaling a bit. Thing is though, me thinks using simple elastomer
> rings with maybe 10mm of travel to cushion the seats and minimize road
> vibration is the way to go.
>
> Other problem/confusion is we will be pulling a trailer 32" W. by 72" L. and
> it will be heavy. If we opt for a rear swing arm, all that trailer weight
> would likely keep the swing arm suspension pushed down all the
> time...removing any benefit from it and thus making seat suspension look
> better.
>
> The tandem will have a fiberglass nose cone and the trailer will have a
> fiberglass body (looks like a wide Thule).
I am not sure front suspension is worth the cost in weight, complexity
and handling. Designing the front end of an unsuspended trike is not
trivial, and adding suspension only complicates matters. Remember that
motor vehicle manufacturers spends thousands of hours, use very
sophisticated computer modeling, and build dozens of prototypes, and
sometimes still get front suspension wrong.
As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the
pivot. (Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial
quality bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports
well.)
--
Tom Sherman - Earth
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 16:32:41
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38c6tlF5mjkrpU1@individual.net...
> Joshua Goldberg wrote:
>
>> Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
>> suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
>> seats?
>>
snip >
> As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
> stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
> from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the pivot.
> (Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial quality
> bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports well.)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
Tom, that's an interesting suggestion for a no pogo rear swingarm, but I
think an argument can be made to develop the seat support tube, which would
probably be the upper shock mount into a trailer mast. By incorporating a
high quality high torque rated spherical bearing and a long tongue hitch
with enough arch to clear a rack pack and panniers when turning.
Joshua, I saw a tandem Trice hanging from the ceiling at The Bike Rack. It's
long. It's very long. You said the traler would be heavy. Will it be
carrying batteries? maybe you should consider a drag brake system for the
trailer too, so it can't overrun you in downhill turns. If the trike is rear
wheel drive, you're probably going to have a huge meaty tire which will give
you some cush too.
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 16:32:41
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38c6tlF5mjkrpU1@individual.net...
> Joshua Goldberg wrote:
>
>> Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
>> suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
>> seats?
>>
snip >
> As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
> stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
> from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the pivot.
> (Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial quality
> bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports well.)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
Tom, that's an interesting suggestion for a no pogo rear swingarm, but I
think an argument can be made to develop the seat support tube, which would
probably be the upper shock mount into a trailer mast. By incorporating a
high quality high torque rated spherical bearing and a long tongue hitch
with enough arch to clear a rack pack and panniers when turning.
Joshua, I saw a tandem Trice hanging from the ceiling at The Bike Rack. It's
long. It's very long. You said the traler would be heavy. Will it be
carrying batteries? maybe you should consider a drag brake system for the
trailer too, so it can't overrun you in downhill turns. If the trike is rear
wheel drive, you're probably going to have a huge meaty tire which will give
you some cush too.
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:06:48
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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Al Luminium wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
> news:38c6tlF5mjkrpU1@individual.net...
>
>>Joshua Goldberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
>>>suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
>>>seats?
>>>
>
> snip>
>
>>As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
>>stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
>>from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the pivot.
>>(Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial quality
>>bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports well.)
>
> Tom, that's an interesting suggestion for a no pogo rear swingarm, but I
> think an argument can be made to develop the seat support tube, which would
> probably be the upper shock mount into a trailer mast. By incorporating a
> high quality high torque rated spherical bearing and a long tongue hitch
> with enough arch to clear a rack pack and panniers when turning.
This would also work on a Dragonflyer [1], but I would suggest a large
diameter, thick wall tube to resist "Wile E. Coyote" level stresses.
> Joshua, I saw a tandem Trice hanging from the ceiling at The Bike Rack. It's
> long. It's very long. You said the traler would be heavy. Will it be
> carrying batteries? maybe you should consider a drag brake system for the
> trailer too, so it can't overrun you in downhill turns. If the trike is rear
> wheel drive, you're probably going to have a huge meaty tire which will give
> you some cush too.
If the trailer is for power assist, it should be possible to use the
motor connected to a resistor grid as a brake. This is commonly done on
diesel-electric hybrid locomotives and off-road haul trucks.
[1] See <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df3.jpg >.
--
Tom Sherman - Earth
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:49:42
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38cdftF5mul2gU1@individual.net...
> Al Luminium wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38c6tlF5mjkrpU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Joshua Goldberg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
>>>>suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
>>>>seats?
>>>>
>>
>> snip>
>>
>>>As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
>>>stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
>>>from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the
>>>pivot. (Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial
>>>quality bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports
>>>well.)
>>
>> Tom, that's an interesting suggestion for a no pogo rear swingarm, but I
>> think an argument can be made to develop the seat support tube, which
>> would probably be the upper shock mount into a trailer mast. By
>> incorporating a high quality high torque rated spherical bearing and a
>> long tongue hitch with enough arch to clear a rack pack and panniers when
>> turning.
>
> This would also work on a Dragonflyer [1], but I would suggest a large
> diameter, thick wall tube to resist "Wile E. Coyote" level stresses.
>
>> Joshua, I saw a tandem Trice hanging from the ceiling at The Bike Rack.
>> It's long. It's very long. You said the traler would be heavy. Will it be
>> carrying batteries? maybe you should consider a drag brake system for the
>> trailer too, so it can't overrun you in downhill turns. If the trike is
>> rear wheel drive, you're probably going to have a huge meaty tire which
>> will give you some cush too.
>
> If the trailer is for power assist, it should be possible to use the motor
> connected to a resistor grid as a brake. This is commonly done on
> diesel-electric hybrid locomotives and off-road haul trucks.
>
> [1] See <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df3.jpg>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
If the trailer has the motor, it should become the tractor and the trike
should be the trailer. A pusher motor system would probably be a deadly bad
design.
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 17:49:42
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
|
"Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com > wrote in message
news:38cdftF5mul2gU1@individual.net...
> Al Luminium wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <tsherman@qconline.com> wrote in message
>> news:38c6tlF5mjkrpU1@individual.net...
>>
>>>Joshua Goldberg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
>>>>suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
>>>>seats?
>>>>
>>
>> snip>
>>
>>>As for rear suspension and a trailer, why not kill two birds with one
>>>stone? Use a jackshaft at the pivot (e.g. Dragonflyer) to eliminate pogo
>>>from pedaling forces, and design the trailer hitch to attach to the
>>>pivot. (Of course, use the largest reasonably practical industrial
>>>quality bearings for the jackshaft/pivot and brace/gusset their supports
>>>well.)
>>
>> Tom, that's an interesting suggestion for a no pogo rear swingarm, but I
>> think an argument can be made to develop the seat support tube, which
>> would probably be the upper shock mount into a trailer mast. By
>> incorporating a high quality high torque rated spherical bearing and a
>> long tongue hitch with enough arch to clear a rack pack and panniers when
>> turning.
>
> This would also work on a Dragonflyer [1], but I would suggest a large
> diameter, thick wall tube to resist "Wile E. Coyote" level stresses.
>
>> Joshua, I saw a tandem Trice hanging from the ceiling at The Bike Rack.
>> It's long. It's very long. You said the traler would be heavy. Will it be
>> carrying batteries? maybe you should consider a drag brake system for the
>> trailer too, so it can't overrun you in downhill turns. If the trike is
>> rear wheel drive, you're probably going to have a huge meaty tire which
>> will give you some cush too.
>
> If the trailer is for power assist, it should be possible to use the motor
> connected to a resistor grid as a brake. This is commonly done on
> diesel-electric hybrid locomotives and off-road haul trucks.
>
> [1] See <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df3.jpg>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Earth
>
If the trailer has the motor, it should become the tractor and the trike
should be the trailer. A pusher motor system would probably be a deadly bad
design.
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 18:26:10
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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Al Luminium wrote:
> If the trailer has the motor, it should become the tractor and the trike
> should be the trailer. A pusher motor system would probably be a deadly bad
> design.
I have seen pictures of several power assist trailers, but have not
actually witnessed any in use.
--
Tom Sherman - Earth
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 16:59:11
From: Steve Knight
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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here you go these would help out a fair amount
http://www.pantourhub.com/products.html#wheel
I have a hub on my front wheel.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 19:20:09
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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Steve Knight wrote:
> here you go these would help out a fair amount
> http://www.pantourhub.com/products.html#wheel
> I have a hub on my front wheel.
Nothing against the Pantour hub, but there a couple of issue for tandem
trike use. They would only work on the front of those few trikes that
use conventional double-sided mounted front wheels. The other is they
are not compatible with the Arai (or equivalent) drag brake,
necessitating the use of a third disc brake as a drag brake, which has
several disadvantages compared to the Arai for the specialized application.
--
Tom Sherman - Earth
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Date: 27 Feb 2005 11:19:05
From: Steve Knight
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
|
>Nothing against the Pantour hub, but there a couple of issue for tandem
>trike use. They would only work on the front of those few trikes that
>use conventional double-sided mounted front wheels. The other is they
>are not compatible with the Arai (or equivalent) drag brake,
>necessitating the use of a third disc brake as a drag brake, which has
>several disadvantages compared to the Arai for the specialized application.
they do have a single sided hubs for trikes. but the drag brake that they don't
have.
--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
|
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Date: 27 Feb 2005 14:58:14
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
|
Steve Knight wrote:
>
>>Nothing against the Pantour hub, but there a couple of issue for tandem
>>trike use. They would only work on the front of those few trikes that
>>use conventional double-sided mounted front wheels. The other is they
>>are not compatible with the Arai (or equivalent) drag brake,
>>necessitating the use of a third disc brake as a drag brake, which has
>>several disadvantages compared to the Arai for the specialized application.
>
>
> they do have a single sided hubs for trikes. but the drag brake that they don't
> have.
I finally found the single-sided hub - there seems to be a temporary
problem with broken links or possibly Mozilla browser compatibility on
the Pantour website.
Only being available in 32 holes drilling does seem to be a
disadvantage, as I would seriously consider more spokes and/or heavier
rims on a tandem trike loaded for touring. Pantour should consider
making 36 and 48 hole high flange versions.
The range of motion of the Pantour is small enough that is might reduce
the number of issues that occur when using suspension on a multi-track
vehicle.
--
Tom Sherman - Earth
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 14:47:55
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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"Joshua Goldberg" <evsolutions@rogers.com > wrote in message
news:0YCdnfpu7d02Rr3fRVn-iQ@rogers.com...
> Anyone care to offer an opinion on which makes more sense, to have
> suspension on all 3 wheels or have suspension beneath the 2 hardshell
> seats?
>
> Am having a tandem tadpole built (similar to the Stein Magnum) but with
> side rails like the MASA Slingshot, but and am using 2 hardshell seats
> from Optima (Baron seats). The wife and I will both be clipped into our
> egg beaters....so I'd think having the seats moving around too much might
> mess with our pedaling a bit. Thing is though, me thinks using simple
> elastomer rings with maybe 10mm of travel to cushion the seats and
> minimize road vibration is the way to go.
>
> Other problem/confusion is we will be pulling a trailer 32" W. by 72" L.
> and it will be heavy. If we opt for a rear swing arm, all that trailer
> weight would likely keep the swing arm suspension pushed down all the
> time...removing any benefit from it and thus making seat suspension look
> better.
>
> The tandem will have a fiberglass nose cone and the trailer will have a
> fiberglass body (looks like a wide Thule).
Josh, HPvelotechnik says no trailers. I think if you attach a trailer
anywhere to the swing arm, the tongue weight adds unsprung weight and can
severly diminish the suspension action. The rubber do-nuts are used by
Windcheeta, but if you and your wife are zoftig you might need to do a bit
of reinforcement to the seats where the grommets are going to be attached to
spread the stress and keep the glass from cracking.
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Date: 28 Feb 2005 12:11:01
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
|
Al Luminium wrote:
> Josh, HPvelotechnik says no trailers.
They've changed their minds on this one, though only the Streetmachine seems
to be happy with single-wheel trailers.
--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
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Date: 01 Mar 2005 17:37:31
From: Al Luminium
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
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"Dave Larrington" <smert.spamionam@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:38gj59F5nffttU1@individual.net...
> Al Luminium wrote:
>
>> Josh, HPvelotechnik says no trailers.
>
> They've changed their minds on this one, though only the Streetmachine
> seems
> to be happy with single-wheel trailers.
>
> --
>
> Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
> World Domination?
> Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
> floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
>
>
Wait, wait....you mean I read that 60 page manual and they went and changed
the bloody instructions?
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Date: 02 Mar 2005 11:16:48
From: Dave Larrington
Subject: Re: tandem suspension
|
Al Luminium wrote:
> Wait, wait....you mean I read that 60 page manual and they went and
> changed
> the bloody instructions?
So it would appear, but they might have changed something in the design /
manufacture - beefier pivot bolts or something. Certainly my Speedmachine -
frame built in late 2000 - considered trailers to be /streng verboten/. I
hae towed a lightly-laden BoB with it, but you won't tell anyone, will you?
--
Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)
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