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Main
Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:00:47
From: Jeff
Subject: Aero vs. regular Wheels
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I've been off a bike for a few years and now getting back on. ...putting
together a new road bike. ...mostly interested in good fit and comfort for
hard training and longer rides. I'm not interested in spending a fortune for
a few less grams which really don't mean anything, but I am interested in a
durable and strong set of wheels as I'm a bit over 200 pounds and will ride
the bike very hard at over 20mph.
I need to either buy or build a wheelset for the new frame. The last set I
built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no? Will these be as
strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
Thanks
Jeff
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:50:41
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
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On Sep 17, 3:52 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> And Remember, PerformanceBike.com has 32H Open Pros with Campy Record
> hubs and DT 14/15 spokes for $300 every day. The hubs are mismatched,
> 2007 (black) rear and 2006 (silver) front, but that's a great price
> either way. And who knows, they may have run out of 2006 fronts by
> now.
> See http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ct7gr
>
Yes, Performance deal on Campy Record hubs/Mavic OP rims is arguably
one of the best deals on the web! If you wait for one of those 20% off
coupons and/or free shipping days, then you really can score. My buddy
got one of these wheels sets this way when Performance had the wheel
for like $250 and with one of those 20% off coupons, plus free
shipping, he ended up paying like $220 out the door!!! Bargain!
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:43:47
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
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On Sep 18, 5:37 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 3:23 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2:14 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com> wrote:>I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> > > > I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> > > > have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> > > Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> > > one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> > > how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
> > > Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
> > > have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
> > > expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
>
> > > Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
> > > bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
> > > that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
> > > cost of being without?
>
> > > I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
> > > good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
> > > Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
> > > and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
> > > easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
> > > on the road the fastest.
>
> > > Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
> > > closely at the boutiques....
>
> > Also, if you're a big guy/clydesdale type rider and want to use Campy
> > rear hubs, then you may also want to look into an "offset" rear rim
> > like Ritchey OCR or Velocity Aerohead OC. The offset rear rim "makes
> > spoke tension more uniform for greater reliability and strength."
>
> > For more check out Andy Muzi at Yellow Jersey:
>
> >http://www.yellowjersey.org/velrim.html
>
> > At about $50-60 per rim, it is very reasonable, or at least appears to
> > be compared to a Kysirum or Campy rim. Good Luck!
>
> I'm sure gonna here about how Aerohead OCs for a .1 offa ton rider is
> fine and dandy but I think they are too light for this gent..just my
> opinion and using a non offset rim with Campag hubs and a big rider is
> no big deal. Have built dozens for big riders and rims I have
> mentioned..DT, Velocity Fusion.- Hide quoted text -
>
Thanks, I knew Velocity made an offset rim, I didn't know it was "too
light." It also appears that Ritchey has discontinued selling its rims
and now only offers complete wheels. Who the heck does he think he is?
Mavic?!#@#% That's not right!
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 08:00:02
From:
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 11:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com > wrote:
> I've been off a bike for a few years and now getting back on. ...putting
> together a new road bike. ...mostly interested in good fit and comfort for
> hard training and longer rides. I'm not interested in spending a fortune for
> a few less grams which really don't mean anything, but I am interested in a
> durable and strong set of wheels as I'm a bit over 200 pounds and will ride
> the bike very hard at over 20mph.
>
> I need to either buy or build a wheelset for the new frame. The last set I
> built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
> a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
> truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
> frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
>
> I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
> like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
> difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no? Will these be as
> strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
> spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
What about building your own aero wheels? For instance deep section
aroe rims with 24 or 28 spokes laced two or three cross. These will
be a heck of a lot more durable than the boutique wheels with what--
eighteen spokes?--while offering similar aerodynamic benifits. This
has been my dream--when I have some spare change to burn own such
things.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 07:05:21
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 18, 7:37 am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com > wrote:
> On Sep 18, 7:37 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
>
> <pe...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm sure gonna here about how Aerohead OCs for a .1 offa ton rider is
> > fine and dandy but I think they are too light for this gent..just my
> > opinion and using a non offset rim with Campag hubs and a big rider is
> > no big deal. Have built dozens for big riders and rims I have
> > mentioned..DT, Velocity Fusion.
>
> Uninterrupted ride times for those with real life schedules, most
> important. One solution is having two sets of interchangable wheels,
> built from readily available components chosen "durability first".
>
> FWIW dept: I've ridden Velocity Aero front, OC rear (both 36h) for at
> least a year now. Yup, too light for us .1 tonners, and the 23mm tires
> are too small, too. But not really "marginal" IME. The rear has taken
> a few good shots recently and climbed some hard (for us) hills, and
> has finally come a little out of true. Fine service IMHO. Maybe a good
> choice for a "light" (or "event") second set of wheels, with something
> beefier for the daily riders. --D-y
I guess I would consider 36h...for us(and him) .1 offa tonners..not
32h and Aerohead/OC tho...but I'm pretty conservative in my idea of
wheels.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 06:37:26
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 18, 7:37 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com > wrote:
>
> I'm sure gonna here about how Aerohead OCs for a .1 offa ton rider is
> fine and dandy but I think they are too light for this gent..just my
> opinion and using a non offset rim with Campag hubs and a big rider is
> no big deal. Have built dozens for big riders and rims I have
> mentioned..DT, Velocity Fusion.
Uninterrupted ride times for those with real life schedules, most
important. One solution is having two sets of interchangable wheels,
built from readily available components chosen "durability first".
FWIW dept: I've ridden Velocity Aero front, OC rear (both 36h) for at
least a year now. Yup, too light for us .1 tonners, and the 23mm tires
are too small, too. But not really "marginal" IME. The rear has taken
a few good shots recently and climbed some hard (for us) hills, and
has finally come a little out of true. Fine service IMHO. Maybe a good
choice for a "light" (or "event") second set of wheels, with something
beefier for the daily riders. --D-y
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 05:37:53
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 3:23 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2:14 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com> wrote:>I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> > > I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> > > have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> > Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> > one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> > how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
> > Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
> > have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
> > expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
>
> > Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
> > bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
> > that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
> > cost of being without?
>
> > I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
> > good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
> > Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
> > and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
> > easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
> > on the road the fastest.
>
> > Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
> > closely at the boutiques....
>
> Also, if you're a big guy/clydesdale type rider and want to use Campy
> rear hubs, then you may also want to look into an "offset" rear rim
> like Ritchey OCR or Velocity Aerohead OC. The offset rear rim "makes
> spoke tension more uniform for greater reliability and strength."
>
> For more check out Andy Muzi at Yellow Jersey:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/velrim.html
>
> At about $50-60 per rim, it is very reasonable, or at least appears to
> be compared to a Kysirum or Campy rim. Good Luck!
I'm sure gonna here about how Aerohead OCs for a .1 offa ton rider is
fine and dandy but I think they are too light for this gent..just my
opinion and using a non offset rim with Campag hubs and a big rider is
no big deal. Have built dozens for big riders and rims I have
mentioned..DT, Velocity Fusion.
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 05:35:32
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 3:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com > wrote:
> I've been off a bike for a few years and now getting back on. ...putting
> together a new road bike. ...mostly interested in good fit and comfort for
> hard training and longer rides. I'm not interested in spending a fortune for
> a few less grams which really don't mean anything, but I am interested in a
> durable and strong set of wheels as I'm a bit over 200 pounds and will ride
> the bike very hard at over 20mph.
>
> I need to either buy or build a wheelset for the new frame. The last set I
> built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
> a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
> truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
> frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
>
> I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
> like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
How about Velocity Fusion rims or DT 1.2...Record hubs, aero-
ish(bladed) spokes in the front.
>
> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
> difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no?
Perhaps in a wind tunnel but in everyday riding, I would say no.
Reliability is the key here.
Will these be as
> strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
> spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
Not as strong as a well built wheelset, gotta hand ointo the spokes to
retrue as they are straight pull, Not a harsher ride, spokes are hard
to find.
Fusion, DT 1.1(dbl eyelet), 1,2..Record hubs, the way to go..OpenPros
are 3rd on my list of rims.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 21:33:06
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in
message news:1190118932.090200.128840@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Fusion, DT 1.1(dbl eyelet), 1,2..Record hubs, the way to go..OpenPros
> are 3rd on my list of rims.
I've recently discovered the DT rims on Colorado Cyclist and Excel. ...looks
like I'm leaning toward the 1.1 or 1.2 rims with DT 240 hubs and 14/15
double-butted spokes in 32 hole with 3-cross pattern (and forgetting about
the boutique wheels as others have called them). If I didn't build/re-true
my own wheels, I would likely go with 36s, but my current 32s work well and
only require a quick (and very minor) retrue perhaps every two months or
so - no real problem when you have a truing stand handy. ...and I've been
running 23s for tires without a problem (at 120-130 psi or sometimes higher
depending on the tire). In thinking about this more, if I'm by myself, I
don't care about the seconds saved with the aero. ...in climbing, the extra
weight of the aero really won't be substantial in any meaningful way for my
type of riding. The only place where it may have a marginal effect is if I'm
with a very fast group (e.g., 22-26 mph) where I'm having trouble keeping up
(as the slowest there), when I'm running near 100% to stay in the paceline.
...but then I'll mostly be drafting so the aero won't matter much if at all.
So perhaps I'll go for the deeper V rims like the DT 1.2 with standard round
spokes (the V rim of the 1.2 are the same price as the 1.1).
I did notice (after someone here mentioned it), that I can get already built
custom wheels from Colorado cheaper than buying the parts separately and can
still specify the spoke type and lacing pattern. ...but Excel charges a
building fee so that the custom built wheels are more expensive than the
separate parts.
...but Excel has the DT 1.2 (as well as the 1.1), while Colorado only has
the 1.1 in DT brand.
So:
1) anyplace else good for buying wheelbuilding components that could better
the Colorado or Excel prices?
2) any other comments about the choices above?
Thanks
Jeff
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 23:23:22
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 3:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com > wrote:
> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
> difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no? Will these be as
> strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
> spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
A wheelset with a 30mm deep aluminum rim and aero spokes should be ~1%
faster on the flat than what you have now. That isn't something you
will feel, but if you are competitve it could make a difference. The
nice thing is that these deeper rims have good stiffness, and cost no
more than Open Pros... the spokes can be expensive though. As an
example you could use 32h Record hubs with 32 spokes in the back with
conventional lacing, and 24 in the front using a modified crows foot
pattern and a 24h rim. With CX-Rays and Niobium 30mm rims they'd be
light (~1520g), but you could also use Deep V or DT1.2 rims and
heavier butted spokes for greater durability. The parts are common,
easy to service, and cheap to replace. See the Mavic R-Sys thread for
Carl's excellent assessment of the radial stiffness issue.
Unfortunately a custom built wheelset will cost a lot more than a
Record/Open Pro on sale at Performance, so if that will meet your
requirements it is a great value.
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 20:00:25
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
Jeff wrote:
> built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
> a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
> truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
> frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
>
> I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
> like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
I'd stick with 32-spoke handbuilt wheels, but I clearly am in the
minority in clubs around here. Why do you think the cost will be
similar between the handbuilt wheels and boutique wheels? Do you get
the boutique wheels at a huge discount? Hubs are, what, 60-100 bucks.
Rims can vary wildly in price, but the top I would consider would be
$100 for a pair. Spokes would be $20. So for about $200 I could build
a set of new wheels with nice, reliable, smooth hubs and durable rims.
What was the question, now?
>
> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
> difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no?
"Noticeable" is the key word. Do you notice a few seconds in a 20-mile
time trial? If you are racing for gold, you do, but otherwise?
Heck, you do this for exercise. A heavier set of wheels will give you
more of that per hour.
> Will these be as
> strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
> spokes?
Of course not (referring to boutique wheels). Find anyone riding Rolf
wheels now? No, you don't. 5 years ago, thousands were. Now, all of
those expensive wheels are either decorating basements, or in landfills.
In 5 years, no one will see Kysiueums, or however they spell it.
These are fads, not engineering advances.
Will they be as easy to re-true?
What? Are you kidding? In order to build these 13-spoke wheels, they
need a special jig so that they can tighten the spoke without breaking
it. This does not suggest that you can true it in the field.
Will they give a harsher ride?
Ride comfort is more a function of tire width and tire pressure than
anything else.
Can
> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
Just send it back to the factory, and wait.
--
David L. Johnson
"What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
What are you on?"
--Lance Armstrong
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 21:55:53
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
David L. Johnson wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
>
>> built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims.
>> I've put a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an
>> occasional touch-up truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a
>> second set for the new frame, and am wondering about the newer aero
>> wheels.
>>
>> I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get
>> something like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium
>> elite. If I build, I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar
>> mavic open pro rim that I have on the older bike. The cost of each
>> will probably be similar.
>
> I'd stick with 32-spoke handbuilt wheels, but I clearly am in the
> minority in clubs around here. Why do you think the cost will be
> similar between the handbuilt wheels and boutique wheels? Do you get
> the boutique wheels at a huge discount? Hubs are, what, 60-100 bucks.
> Rims can vary wildly in price, but the top I would consider would be
> $100 for a pair. Spokes would be $20. So for about $200 I could build
> a set of new wheels with nice, reliable, smooth hubs and durable rims.
> What was the question, now?
>
>>
>> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any
>> noticable difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no?
>
> "Noticeable" is the key word. Do you notice a few seconds in a 20-mile
> time trial? If you are racing for gold, you do, but otherwise?
>
> Heck, you do this for exercise. A heavier set of wheels will give you
> more of that per hour.
>
>> Will these be as strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the
>> open-pro with conventional spokes?
>
> Of course not (referring to boutique wheels). Find anyone riding Rolf
> wheels now? No, you don't. 5 years ago, thousands were. Now, all of
> those expensive wheels are either decorating basements, or in landfills.
> In 5 years, no one will see Kysiueums, or however they spell it. These
> are fads, not engineering advances.
>
> Will they be as easy to re-true?
>
> What? Are you kidding? In order to build these 13-spoke wheels, they
> need a special jig so that they can tighten the spoke without breaking
> it. This does not suggest that you can true it in the field.
>
> Will they give a harsher ride?
>
> Ride comfort is more a function of tire width and tire pressure than
> anything else.
>
> Can
>> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
>
> Just send it back to the factory, and wait.
>
What David said.
If you /can/ build reliable wheels (and your experience seems to
indicate that you can), it's certainly the way to go. Lots of aero rims
available that you could build with if you like (I did). Aero spokes
available as well, if you really want 'em. If you use enough (32 or 36,
say, and steel), they certainly won't /weaken/ the wheel; if the cost of
the spokes doesn't put you off, why not use 'em?
I put oval spokes on my front wheel because 1) I found them cheap, 2) at
36 spokes, I had a strength margin to play with, and 3) I liked the looks.
Mark J.
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 17:28:21
From:
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:00:47 -0500, "Jeff" <no_one@george.com > wrote:
>
>I've been off a bike for a few years and now getting back on. ...putting
>together a new road bike. ...mostly interested in good fit and comfort for
>hard training and longer rides. I'm not interested in spending a fortune for
>a few less grams which really don't mean anything, but I am interested in a
>durable and strong set of wheels as I'm a bit over 200 pounds and will ride
>the bike very hard at over 20mph.
>
>I need to either buy or build a wheelset for the new frame. The last set I
>built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
>a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
>truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
>frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
>
>I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
>like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
>I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
>have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
>I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
>difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no? Will these be as
>strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
>spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
>I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
>
>Thanks
>
>Jeff
Dear Jeff,
If you/re using them for training, it's the training effort, not the
speed that will matter.
But you asked whether aero rims/spokes really make any noticeable
difference on flat riding at higher speeds.
Here's a calculator that lets you compare the aerodynamic effects of
some older wheels:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffEqWindCourse_Page.html
Unfortunately, the calculator can be balky about connecting, so be
patient if you find it interesting.
If you set one bike to use the worst Cobb-data 32-spoke generic wheels
and the other bike to use the best Cobb-data Deep/S90, it predicts
461.80 seconds versus 452.11 seconds for a 4 km standing start course
at a modest 250 watts--9.69 seconds difference out of 461.8 seconds,
2.09% faster.
For 400 watts, times drop to 364.98 vs. 356.36, 8.62 seconds faster, a
smaller raw time change, but a slightly larger percentage speed
increase of 2.36%.
Like most expensive equipment changes, these require a stopwatch and
averaging numerous runs over the same course to tell the difference.
Only you can decide if differences like these between genric box 32
and the best aero from a few years ago are worth the trouble for what
you describe as training.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 15:52:12
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 2:23 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2:14 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com> wrote:>I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> > > I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> > > have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> > Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> > one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> > how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
> > Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
> > have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
> > expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
>
> > Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
> > bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
> > that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
> > cost of being without?
>
> > I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
> > good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
> > Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
> > and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
> > easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
> > on the road the fastest.
>
> > Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
> > closely at the boutiques....
>
> Also, if you're a big guy/clydesdale type rider and want to use Campy
> rear hubs, then you may also want to look into an "offset" rear rim
> like Ritchey OCR or Velocity Aerohead OC. The offset rear rim "makes
> spoke tension more uniform for greater reliability and strength."
>
> For more check out Andy Muzi at Yellow Jersey:
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/velrim.html
>
> At about $50-60 per rim, it is very reasonable, or at least appears to
> be compared to a Kysirum or Campy rim. Good Luck!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thumbs-up on this suggestion. I just built up a set of Aeroheads with
the OC rear (and two fronts, one with a Schmidt generator, one
without) and the 2006 Centaur hubs Nashbar has on closeout. I've been
amazed with the performace of them. Even with 36 spokes, they're
lighter than the 28 spoke Ambrosio Sonar prebuilts I had on there
initially, and the bearings are much smoother and lower drag. And not
only are they tougher for the higher spoke count, the OC rear mean I
get 75% of the Drive Side's tension on the Non-Drive-Side. Very, very
happy with these wheels.
And Remember, PerformanceBike.com has 32H Open Pros with Campy Record
hubs and DT 14/15 spokes for $300 every day. The hubs are mismatched,
2007 (black) rear and 2006 (silver) front, but that's a great price
either way. And who knows, they may have run out of 2006 fronts by
now. See http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ct7gr
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 14:28:21
From: Wayne
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 4:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com > wrote:
> I've been off a bike for a few years and now getting back on. ...putting
> together a new road bike. ...mostly interested in good fit and comfort for
> hard training and longer rides. I'm not interested in spending a fortune for
> a few less grams which really don't mean anything, but I am interested in a
> durable and strong set of wheels as I'm a bit over 200 pounds and will ride
> the bike very hard at over 20mph.
>
> I need to either buy or build a wheelset for the new frame. The last set I
> built were 32 spoke double-butted DT spokes on Mavic open pro rims. I've put
> a few thousand miles on them with nothing more than an occasional touch-up
> truing once or twice a year. ...but now I need a second set for the new
> frame, and am wondering about the newer aero wheels.
>
> I hear all of the hype, but don't know what to believe. If I get something
> like that, I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> I'm looking for opinions. Will aero rims/spokes really make any noticable
> difference on flat riding at higher speeds, or no? Will these be as
> strong/durable for a larger rider relative to the open-pro with conventional
> spokes? Will they be as easy to re-true? Will they give a harsher ride? Can
> I get replacement spokes if one breaks?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
Below is an interesting quote from the ZIPP web site that has a Mavic
test of various wheels. Since this is not an unbiased opinion, I
would expect it would overstate any aero benefit.
..."Measurable differences in the aerodynamic quality
of wheels appear at a speed of 30 km/h, but it becomes
really interesting above 40 km/h. The difference between
the best and the weakest wheels in the test amounts to
about 7 Watt (for a single wheel) at a speed of 40 km/h...."
In other words in the wind tunnel with just a wheel there is no
measurable benefit at less than 18.75 mph. I know that does not seem
very fast but I expect "measurable" is quite a bit lower than what is
significant when you factor in the bike and rider.
I guess you have to decide where you are on the $$ vs results curve.
The article can be found at
http://www.zipp.com/portals/0/technology/documents/aerowheelcomparison.pdf
Wayne - who wishes that he was fast enough for the wheels to make a
difference.
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 14:23:54
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 2:14 pm, bfd <bfd...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com> wrote:>I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> > I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> > have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
> Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
> Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
> have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
> expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
>
> Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
> bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
> that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
> cost of being without?
>
> I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
> good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
> Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
> and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
> easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
> on the road the fastest.
>
> Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
> closely at the boutiques....
Also, if you're a big guy/clydesdale type rider and want to use Campy
rear hubs, then you may also want to look into an "offset" rear rim
like Ritchey OCR or Velocity Aerohead OC. The offset rear rim "makes
spoke tension more uniform for greater reliability and strength."
For more check out Andy Muzi at Yellow Jersey:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/velrim.html
At about $50-60 per rim, it is very reasonable, or at least appears to
be compared to a Kysirum or Campy rim. Good Luck!
|
| |
Date: 17 Sep 2007 14:14:04
From: bfd
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com > wrote:
>I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
>
Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
cost of being without?
I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
on the road the fastest.
Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
closely at the boutiques....
|
| | |
Date: 18 Sep 2007 08:31:41
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
In article
<1190063644.225556.27720@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
bfd <bfd853@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sep 17, 2:00 pm, "Jeff" <no_...@george.com> wrote:
> >I'll probably be looking at the Mavic Ksyrium elite. If I build,
> > I'll likely get Campy record hubs and a similar mavic open pro rim that I
> > have on the older bike. The cost of each will probably be similar.
> >
> Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
> Check it out, many boutique wheels, like the Mavic Kysrium and Campy,
> have very, very expensive spokes and replacement rims. Its so
> expensive that I've seen broken wheels being sold for parts.
>
> Further, some wheels, like Topolinos, can't be repaired by "any
> bikeshop USA," and instead have to be returned to the factory. If
> that is the case, don't know about Mavic boutiques, then what is the
> cost of being without?
>
> I know boutique wheels are in and just about everybody rides them, but
> good 28h (if you're light enough), 32h or even 36h spoke wheels using
> Campy or Shimano hubs with good spokes from DT, Sapim or Wheelsmith
> and rims from Mavic, Velocity and many others are the cheapest and
> easiest way to get you out on the road. Further, it can get you back
> on the road the fastest.
>
> Of course, if "aero" is the main need, then you'll need to look
> closely at the boutiques....
Happily, the last bit is not completely so.
Good aerodynamic wheels can be built up from
quality replaceable parts. Various rim manufacturers
build deep profile rims that are aerodynamic.
--
Michael Press
|
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:33:20
From: Jeff
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
"bfd" <bfd853@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1190063644.225556.27720@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
> one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
> how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
...good point. There was a sale somewhere on the ksyrium elite for about
$400/pair, which puts them in about the same ballpark as the conventional
open-pro with campy record hubs build.
So far, I've only broken spokes on poorly assembled wheels prior to the
point I started building them myself. I've never broken a spoke on one of
mine, and that includes a tandem running 36 spoke wheels for thousands of
miles. I just don't know what to expect from the newer things.
So I agree with everything you've said. I think I read elsewhere that a
traditional campy record or shimano DA (or even ultegra) hub set is actually
much better in construction than many of the more expensive aero wheel hubs.
...and I could have those wheels back and running in about 10 minutes if a
spoke broke.
...but I might still consider the aero wheels if it really did make a
difference.
J
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 19:00:12
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Aero vs. regular Wheels
|
Jeff wrote:
> "bfd" <bfd853@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1190063644.225556.27720@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Will the cost really be similar? Assuming for a second that they are,
>> one thing to consider is replacement cost. IF you crash your wheel,
>> how much would a replacement rim and/or spokes be for the Ksyrium?
>
> ...good point. There was a sale somewhere on the ksyrium elite for about
> $400/pair, which puts them in about the same ballpark as the conventional
> open-pro with campy record hubs build.
>
> So far, I've only broken spokes on poorly assembled wheels prior to the
> point I started building them myself. I've never broken a spoke on one of
> mine, and that includes a tandem running 36 spoke wheels for thousands of
> miles. I just don't know what to expect from the newer things.
>
> So I agree with everything you've said. I think I read elsewhere that a
> traditional campy record or shimano DA (or even ultegra) hub set is actually
> much better in construction than many of the more expensive aero wheel hubs.
> ...and I could have those wheels back and running in about 10 minutes if a
> spoke broke.
>
> ...but I might still consider the aero wheels if it really did make a
> difference.
>
> J
Last time I looked, Ultegra/Open Pro/DT were available for around $200.
That's what I'm still using, and probably what I'd go with for a new
set. I like to buy pre-built wheels & tension & stress relieve them
myself, it's usually much cheaper than buying the components. I don't
break spokes any more (since learning how to stress relieve), but I do
wear out rims, riding in all weather, so I want wheels that I can
service myself. I've never been all that impressed with aero wheels,
neither have my friends who have bought them. I really hate having to
use long stem tubes.
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