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Main
Date: 24 Jun 2007 14:48:23
From:
Subject: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
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2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
mixed drivetrain?
John
PS- Thanks for all the advice on my previous questions.
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:00:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
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On Aug 3, 6:34 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Aug 2, 10:37 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu> wrote:
> >> On Jun 30, 3:19 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> >>> most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
> >>> is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
> >>> mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
> >>> rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
> >>> stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
> >>> you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
> >>> maybe not have these problems.
> >> You should speak to the folks at Cannondale and let them know. They
> >> don't seem to be aware of this 5 year limitation.
>
> > Right, C'dale frames have a "lifetime warranty", but, when they they
> > fail, C'dale calls it "normal wear and tear", which *is not* covered
> > in the "lifetime warranty". IOW, they are warrantied until they fail,
> > then they're not.
>
> > Catch 22.......
>
> I would expect that the warranty would read something like "lifetime
> warranty against DEFECTS in materials and workmanship" (emphasis added).
>
> The tubing can be free of flaws above a certain size and the welding
> done properly, which meets the standard of "free from defects", but the
> frame may still fail relatively early from fatigue due to light weight
> being emphasized over durability.
>
> The dishonesty (if and where it exists) would be advertising a "Lifetime
> Warranty" while not explaining the severe restrictions to what the
> warranty actually covers.
>
Like the sales floor of many, many, many C'dale dealers, where the
buyer is hammered with the "Lifetime Warranty!" pitch?
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 15:48:53
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
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On Jun 24, 3:02 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <mik...@ix.netcom.com > wrote:
> >2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
> > Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
> > at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
> > bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
> > Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
> > Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
> > mixed drivetrain?
>
> > John
>
> > PS- Thanks for all the advice on my previous questions.
>
> I'm not a Specialized dealer so I don't have direct familiarity with the
> models, but are both available in a frame style designed for women? That can
> make quite a difference in ride comfort, which of course can make quite a
> difference in terms of how much she'll actually ride the bike. As for the
> drivetrain, the only thing I can guarantee is that a '105 crankset will
> definitely shift better than any non-Shimano alternative. Nobody has yet to
> come up with chainrings that shift as well as Shimano (on a Shimano STI
> system). Given that front shifting can be a major issue for those new to
> cycling, it might make a difference to her.
You can say that twice. Once again, we have had toe to toe with a FSA
product(customer bring in, not our purchase) and once more I am
reminded how poor these units are...shimano for shimano, Campag for
Campag equipped bicycles is CLEARLY the way to go.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 07:31:45
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Aug 2, 10:37 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu > wrote:
> On Jun 30, 3:19 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> > most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
> > is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
> > mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
> > rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
> > stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
> > you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
> > maybe not have these problems.
>
> You should speak to the folks at Cannondale and let them know. They
> don't seem to be aware of this 5 year limitation.
Right, C'dale frames have a "lifetime warranty", but, when they they
fail, C'dale calls it "normal wear and tear", which *is not* covered
in the "lifetime warranty". IOW, they are warrantied until they fail,
then they're not.
Catch 22.......
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 18:34:02
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Aug 2, 10:37 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu> wrote:
>> On Jun 30, 3:19 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
>>> is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
>>> mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
>>> rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
>>> stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
>>> you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
>>> maybe not have these problems.
>> You should speak to the folks at Cannondale and let them know. They
>> don't seem to be aware of this 5 year limitation.
>
> Right, C'dale frames have a "lifetime warranty", but, when they they
> fail, C'dale calls it "normal wear and tear", which *is not* covered
> in the "lifetime warranty". IOW, they are warrantied until they fail,
> then they're not.
>
> Catch 22.......
I would expect that the warranty would read something like "lifetime
warranty against DEFECTS in materials and workmanship" (emphasis added).
The tubing can be free of flaws above a certain size and the welding
done properly, which meets the standard of "free from defects", but the
frame may still fail relatively early from fatigue due to light weight
being emphasized over durability.
The dishonesty (if and where it exists) would be advertising a "Lifetime
Warranty" while not explaining the severe restrictions to what the
warranty actually covers.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 13:05:49
From: Scott G.
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
but it will fail
>
> I would expect that there are hundreds of thousands of aluminum frames
> on the road every week, just in the US. No offense meant, but wouldn't
> there be chronic frame failures happening if the life span of an
> aluminum bike frame were only 5 years?
You'd think that.
Oversize AL frames have been made since the 1930s, still in good
shape.
Maybe an 800 gram frame should only be ridden for a couple years,
but that is a race bike.
Scott G.
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 08:38:45
From: Alex
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jul 2, 10:54 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> I took it to my LBS and they had the Trek rep come take a look at it and
> he had to admit that that was what was happening and he gave me a frame
> credit for a new frame because he said he had never seen a frame do that
> before so I introduced him to my DeKerf and he was amazed ,know I'm a
> bit of a Clydesdale at 6'4" 225 I don't know if the weigh has anything
> to do with it but I do have 2 frames with the same problem after
> extended use.
Was the frame cracked?
------------------
Alex
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Date: 04 Aug 2007 05:33:24
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Alex wrote:
> On Jul 2, 10:54 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> I took it to my LBS and they had the Trek rep come take a look at it and
>> he had to admit that that was what was happening and he gave me a frame
>> credit for a new frame because he said he had never seen a frame do that
>> before so I introduced him to my DeKerf and he was amazed ,know I'm a
>> bit of a Clydesdale at 6'4" 225 I don't know if the weigh has anything
>> to do with it but I do have 2 frames with the same problem after
>> extended use.
>
> Was the frame cracked?
> ------------------
> Alex
>
No cracks just gone soft.
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 08:37:02
From: Alex
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 30, 3:19 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
> is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
> mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
> rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
> stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
> you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
> maybe not have these problems.
You should speak to the folks at Cannondale and let them know. They
don't seem to be aware of this 5 year limitation.
---------------------
Alex
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 18:22:31
From: RS
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
I've got a 1989 Cannondale Criterium. Rumour is that this bike will beat the shite out of you and is almost
unrideable, especially an old bike like this because the aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
Bike rides fine, doesn't beat me up, handles well and is fun to ride around town two or three hours.
In article <1186069022.135544.106450@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com >, adr5@columbia.edu says...
>
>
>On Jun 30, 3:19 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
>> is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
>> mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
>> rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
>> stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
>> you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
>> maybe not have these problems.
>
>You should speak to the folks at Cannondale and let them know. They
>don't seem to be aware of this 5 year limitation.
>---------------------
>Alex
>
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 08:53:16
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
RS wrote:
> ... aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
>
>
This is an old thread, but is there any way to verify or prove that
aluminum changes over time? And if it does, in what way does it change?
I am not an engineer, but how could this even occur? Wouldn't this be
something that would be apparent in other structures that rely heavily
on aluminum?
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Date: 04 Aug 2007 13:39:29
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
> RS wrote:
>> ... aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
catzz66 wrote:
> This is an old thread, but is there any way to verify or prove that
> aluminum changes over time? And if it does, in what way does it change?
> I am not an engineer, but how could this even occur? Wouldn't this be
> something that would be apparent in other structures that rely heavily
> on aluminum?
here's what there is:
http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/aluminum/temper.cfm
temper by heat is also called 'rapid aging' in aluminum.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 12:06:13
From:
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:53:16 -0500, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com > wrote:
>RS wrote:
>> ... aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
>>
>>
>
>This is an old thread, but is there any way to verify or prove that
>aluminum changes over time? And if it does, in what way does it change?
> I am not an engineer, but how could this even occur? Wouldn't this be
>something that would be apparent in other structures that rely heavily
>on aluminum?
Dear Cat,
Aluminum changes in two ways.
First, many aluminum alloys do change after the molten metal cools,
growing stronger as they age. Page down to the middle of this old Bike
Pro article to the "Precipitation Hardening or Aging", where the
details of aging are explained in considerable detail:
"Some aluminum alloys begin the aging process almost immediately after
they are quenched in the solution heat treatment process. After a
period of a few days aluminum alloys become considerably stronger."
http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/alum.shtml
But this aging doesn't matter to bicyclists, since the aluminum that
we use is pretty much artificially aged and stable before it reaches
the frame maker, much less the local bike shop.
The second way that aluminum changes is that (like most non-ferrous
metals) it ages and weakens in the sense that it will eventually
fatigue at any level of repeated stress. That is, an aluminum piece
subjected to enough load cycles will fatigue and fail, no matter how
low the load or how thick the piece.
In contrast, steel is generally assumed to have a load limit below
which it will not fatigue and fail, no matter how many load cycles it
suffers. (Metallurgists enjoy arguing about whether an implausible
number of cycles would lead to failure in steel, but the lower limit
is generally accepted by engineers.)
More load cycles, in other words, must break a chunk of aluminum, no
matter how light the load is. Steel, on the other hand, can be bent
and released endlessly if the bend is small enough.
In practical terms, any aluminum frame must eventually fatigue and
fail, while a steel frame can be designed to last forever.
However, aluminum frames tend to outlast their owners because the
builders design aluminum frames so that the eventual failure is
further down the road than most people ride.
Racing frames tend to fail earlier, no matter what they're made of,
since the effort to shave a tiny amount of weight off leads to flimsy
design.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 18:27:18
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
carlfogel@comcast.net aka Carl Fogel wrote:
> ...
> The second way that aluminum changes is that (like most non-ferrous
> metals) it ages and weakens in the sense that it will eventually
> fatigue at any level of repeated stress. That is, an aluminum piece
> subjected to enough load cycles will fatigue and fail, no matter how
> low the load or how thick the piece.
>
> In contrast, steel is generally assumed to have a load limit below
> which it will not fatigue and fail, no matter how many load cycles it
> suffers. (Metallurgists enjoy arguing about whether an implausible
> number of cycles would lead to failure in steel, but the lower limit
> is generally accepted by engineers.)
>
> More load cycles, in other words, must break a chunk of aluminum, no
> matter how light the load is. Steel, on the other hand, can be bent
> and released endlessly if the bend is small enough.
>
> In practical terms, any aluminum frame must eventually fatigue and
> fail, while a steel frame can be designed to last forever....
Nonsense. The fatigue limits for steel are only valid for materials that
have not been processed in a way that creates flaws or stress
concentrations. Fatigue limits for uniformly processed specimens should
not be extrapolated to the joints in a bicycle frame, since the cutting,
heating and cooling of the material during frame construction will
introduce flaws and/or stress concentrations. In a real world steel
bicycle frame, stresses in localized area will exceed the fatigue limit,
unless the frame is ridiculously overbuilt (i.e. way too heavy). A well
designed aluminium alloy [1] frame could well outlast a steel frame.
[1] A frame made from non-alloyed aluminium is by definition NOT well
designed.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 05 Aug 2007 11:43:26
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
In article
<46b3adb9$0$16329$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
> In a real world steel
> bicycle frame, stresses in localized area will exceed the fatigue limit,
> unless the frame is ridiculously overbuilt (i.e. way too heavy). A well
> designed aluminium alloy [1] frame could well outlast a steel frame.
You claim very much here. I never read or heard this claim until now.
Can you prove this claim?
--
Michael Press
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Date: 05 Aug 2007 13:53:44
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <46b3adb9$0$16329$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> In a real world steel
>> bicycle frame, stresses in localized area will exceed the fatigue limit,
>> unless the frame is ridiculously overbuilt (i.e. way too heavy). A well
>> designed aluminium alloy [1] frame could well outlast a steel frame.
>
> You claim very much here. I never read or heard this claim until now.
> Can you prove this claim?
There have been plenty of real-world fatigue failures of steel frame,
and many real world examples of aluminium alloy frames lasting for a
long time. The conclusions that can be drawn from this are obvious.
Please note that I did not say that aluminium alloy frames were more
durable in a general sense than steel frames, just that a proper
aluminium alloy frame could be more durable than a poorly designed or
very lightweight steel frame.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 16:26:56
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:53:16 -0500, catzz66
> <catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>
>
>>RS wrote:
>>
>>>... aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
>>>
>>>
>>
Carl's reply snipped.
Would you go so far as to say, Carl, that while RS's statement may be
technically true, it likely has no practical application to cycling
frames for various reasons? The above quote seemed to follow a similar
line to another poster a month or so the gist of which was that aluminum
cycle frames have a finite life of 5 years. In other words, while
aluminum frames may have a natural breaking point due to the breakdown
of the aluminum they are made of, the breaking point (due to stress
repetitions, etc) is so far out into the future that it doesn't get
reached, as a practical matter.
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 16:59:29
From:
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:26:56 -0500, catzz66
<catzz66@threeletterservice.com > wrote:
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:53:16 -0500, catzz66
>> <catzz66@threeletterservice.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>RS wrote:
>>>
>>>>... aluminum, as it ages, gets stiffer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>Carl's reply snipped.
>
>Would you go so far as to say, Carl, that while RS's statement may be
>technically true, it likely has no practical application to cycling
>frames for various reasons? The above quote seemed to follow a similar
>line to another poster a month or so the gist of which was that aluminum
>cycle frames have a finite life of 5 years. In other words, while
>aluminum frames may have a natural breaking point due to the breakdown
>of the aluminum they are made of, the breaking point (due to stress
>repetitions, etc) is so far out into the future that it doesn't get
>reached, as a practical matter.
Dear Catz,
Concerning aluminum aging and strengthening in the metallurgical
sense, I went so far as to say:
"But this aging doesn't matter to bicyclists, since the aluminum that
we use is pretty much artificially aged and stable before it reaches
the frame maker, much less the local bike shop."
As for aluminum aging and weakening in the sense of fatigue, I went so
far as to say that aluminum has no lower limit, so it will eventually
break in use, but that a well-designed aluminum bicycle frame will
likely outlive its owner.
Think of aluminum airframes--they last considerably more than five
years, due to design. Now think of aluminum cans--they will fatigue
when squeezed in the consumer's hand.
Any bicycle frame designed with too much emphasis on saving weight may
fail within a season, regardless of its material. Thicker aluminum
parts will last longer.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 03 Aug 2007 20:13:59
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
carlfogel@comcast.net aka Carl Fogel wrote:
> ...
> Think of aluminum airframes--they last considerably more than five
> years, due to design. Now think of aluminum cans--they will fatigue
> when squeezed in the consumer's hand....
Apples and oranges. The beverage can fails rapidly from work hardening
and loss of ductility when it is PLASTICALLY DEFORMED beyond yield.
The fatigue of concern in aircraft (and bicycle frames) is from
repetitive stress cycles in the ELASTIC RANGE, with no permanent
deformation occurring.
If a bicycle frame or aircraft has parts yielding in normal use, there
are much worse problems than fatigue to deal with.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 02 Aug 2007 08:35:51
From: Alex
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 29, 10:43 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> All aluminum frames have a finite life
True
>(about5 years)
You just pulled that number out of thin air. No all AL frames
are the same, so one number can't apply to all. Just ask one
of the companies that has lifetime warranties on thier frames.
> and then the
> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> be longer but it will fail
Except for stupid light frames, the time it take to fail is really,
really
long.
--------------------
Alex
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:54:26
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jul 2, 8:34 pm, wizardB who? wrote:
> Jobst Brandt wrote:
> > Peter Cole writes:
>
> >>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
> >>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> >>> be longer but it will fail
>
> >> That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
> >> showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
>
> > Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
> > require buying a new frame.
>
> > So what is the cause of "(about5 years)" embrittlement? Does it
> > matter how much the bicycle is ridden, by whom and where? The steel
> > frame story came from bicycle dealers in Europe who had almost no
> > business in winter, sport bicycles being for the road.
>
> > Jobst Brandt
>
> I actually own 2 steel bikes that have gone soft 1 is a trek 930 with
> about 20,000 km and the other is a DeKerf with many hours of hard trail
> riding both will kick the chain on a hard stroke because the crank area
> just sways when you pedal hard.
How can the stiffness of a frame change in any meaningful manner,
unless cracking is occurring somewhere? The elasticity of the steel
does not change to any significant extent.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 02:54:28
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> On Jul 2, 8:34 pm, wizardB who? wrote:
>> Jobst Brandt wrote:
>>> Peter Cole writes:
>>>>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
>>>>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
>>>>> be longer but it will fail
>>>> That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
>>>> showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
>>> Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
>>> require buying a new frame.
>>> So what is the cause of "(about5 years)" embrittlement? Does it
>>> matter how much the bicycle is ridden, by whom and where? The steel
>>> frame story came from bicycle dealers in Europe who had almost no
>>> business in winter, sport bicycles being for the road.
>>> Jobst Brandt
>> I actually own 2 steel bikes that have gone soft 1 is a trek 930 with
>> about 20,000 km and the other is a DeKerf with many hours of hard trail
>> riding both will kick the chain on a hard stroke because the crank area
>> just sways when you pedal hard.
>
> How can the stiffness of a frame change in any meaningful manner,
> unless cracking is occurring somewhere? The elasticity of the steel
> does not change to any significant extent.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
>
>
I took it to my LBS and they had the Trek rep come take a look at it and
he had to admit that that was what was happening and he gave me a frame
credit for a new frame because he said he had never seen a frame do that
before so I introduced him to my DeKerf and he was amazed ,know I'm a
bit of a Clydesdale at 6'4" 225 I don't know if the weigh has anything
to do with it but I do have 2 frames with the same problem after
extended use.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:36:06
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jul 2, 8:34 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > Peter Cole writes:
>
> >>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
> >>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> >>> be longer but it will fail
>
> >> That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
> >> showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
>
> > Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
> > require buying a new frame.
>
> > So what is the cause of "(about5 years)" embrittlement? Does it
> > matter how much the bicycle is ridden, by whom and where? The steel
> > frame story came from bicycle dealers in Europe who had almost no
> > business in winter, sport bicycles being for the road.
>
> > Jobst Brandt
>
> I actually own 2 steel bikes that have gone soft 1 is a trek 930 with
> about 20,000 km and the other is a DeKerf with many hours of hard trail
> riding both will kick the chain on a hard stroke because the crank area
> just sways when you pedal hard
Sounds as if something is cracked! ;-)
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:19:06
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
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On Jul 2, 3:53 pm, Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...
> Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
> require buying a new frame....
This kept on happening to me, until I stopped taking rides in the
annealing oven! ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 04:18:33
From: al77
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
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On 26 Jun, 02:18, jcm...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Jun 25, 8:06 pm, Paul Cassel <pcasselremo...@comremovecast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> > > Sorry, I should have given more information. Front indexed shifting, when
> > > going from a smaller to larger chainring, requires a bit more work than the
> > > rear, at least with Shimano. You need to move the lever all the way to the
> > > end of its travel and hold it there for a moment. This needs to be explained
> > > to newcomers, especially since, when new, the relatively-stiff chain will be
> > > a bit more likely to make that shift (without as much effort) as it will
> > > once broken in.
>
> > > Those with smaller hands, which means many women, have a more difficult time
> > > making this shift (due to the extent of lever throw required). If you have a
> > > crankset that doesn't shift as well as another, that adds to the problem,
> > > making it even more difficult (because you'll have to hold the lever in
> > > place longer, to allow it to catch and jump up to the next-larger
> > > chainring).
>
> > Thanks, Mike. I have 'that other brand' of gruppo so I never experienced
> > what you write about. I move the lever, it shifts the chain. End of
> > story. I also have giant hands.
>
> > -paul
>
> Tried the Dolce and various other women's geometry frames and we (and
> a couple of astute bike shops) realized that she fits better on a
> standard geometry frame. She's got a slightly longer torso for her
> height than many women, so she felt a little cramped on the wsd
> frames.
>
> Given that she will probably put at most 1000 miles per year on the
> bike, we're looking for a good balance between performance, price and
> longevity. The price for either bike is not trivial and I'd like to
> see her happily riding this bike 15 years from now. I have heard some
> discussions about the longevity of Ksyrium wheels in specific and
> Mavic wheels in general. Is this something that I should be concerned
> about with the Aksium wheels (she weighs 150 and knows I'm writing
> this)? Is it realistic to plan to ride it for 15+ years and will the
> Comp have a better chance of reaching that age or a lower cost of
> ownership (105 chainrings possibly lasting longer than the Sugino
> rings etc.)?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi, Chainrings etc can be replaced cheaply. You should worry more
about the frame itself. If you're looking for a long lasting frame
Specialized might not be the best choice.
I am biased having owned an allez elite frame that split on me. That
frame was about 5-6 years old at the time. The most likely cause
seemed to be crappy dropout hanger bolt positioning. Once an
aluminium frame is broken it will be beyond economical repair, the
same is not true of steel. You can read more & see pics here:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/2a170f2abbbf87ad/277748d598774614?lnk=gst&q=allez+frame+broken&rnum=1&hl=en#277748d598774614
I went for a nice Soma steel frame as the replacement & am
fantastically happy with it. I've also had a reynolds 531 fast tourer
for a lot longer than the aluminium Specialized. The reynolds has
carried a lot more weight and on rougher terrain without a single
problem. If there was a problem with steel it would also more likely
be economically fixable.
On the upside- faults with aluminium frames probably aren't that
common, I was just unlucky. And a new frame should be covered by
warranty too. But I'm very happy with my steel frames.
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Date: 30 Jun 2007 02:43:40
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
> Hi, Chainrings etc can be replaced cheaply. You should worry more
> about the frame itself. If you're looking for a long lasting frame
> Specialized might not be the best choice.
>
> I am biased having owned an allez elite frame that split on me. That
> frame was about 5-6 years old at the time. The most likely cause
> seemed to be crappy dropout hanger bolt positioning. Once an
> aluminium frame is broken it will be beyond economical repair, the
> same is not true of steel. You can read more & see pics here:
> http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_thread/thread/2a170f2abbbf87ad/277748d598774614?lnk=gst&q=allez+frame+broken&rnum=1&hl=en#277748d598774614
>
> I went for a nice Soma steel frame as the replacement & am
> fantastically happy with it. I've also had a reynolds 531 fast tourer
> for a lot longer than the aluminium Specialized. The reynolds has
> carried a lot more weight and on rougher terrain without a single
> problem. If there was a problem with steel it would also more likely
> be economically fixable.
>
> On the upside- faults with aluminium frames probably aren't that
> common, I was just unlucky. And a new frame should be covered by
> warranty too. But I'm very happy with my steel frames.
All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
be longer but it will fail
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 16:45:40
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
wizardB wrote:
> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> be longer but it will fail
That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 20:53:20
From:
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Peter Cole writes:
>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
>> be longer but it will fail
> That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
> showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
require buying a new frame.
So what is the cause of "(about5 years)" embrittlement? Does it
matter how much the bicycle is ridden, by whom and where? The steel
frame story came from bicycle dealers in Europe who had almost no
business in winter, sport bicycles being for the road.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 01:34:04
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Peter Cole writes:
>
>>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
>>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
>>> be longer but it will fail
>
>> That was the conjecture around 20 years ago when aluminum frames started
>> showing up in quantity. Fortunately it turned out to be wrong.
>
> Don't forget to mention that steel frames get soft after two years and
> require buying a new frame.
>
> So what is the cause of "(about5 years)" embrittlement? Does it
> matter how much the bicycle is ridden, by whom and where? The steel
> frame story came from bicycle dealers in Europe who had almost no
> business in winter, sport bicycles being for the road.
>
> Jobst Brandt
I actually own 2 steel bikes that have gone soft 1 is a trek 930 with
about 20,000 km and the other is a DeKerf with many hours of hard trail
riding both will kick the chain on a hard stroke because the crank area
just sways when you pedal hard.
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Date: 30 Jun 2007 10:39:18
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
wizardB wrote:
>>
> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> be longer but it will fail
I would expect that there are hundreds of thousands of aluminum frames
on the road every week, just in the US. No offense meant, but wouldn't
there be chronic frame failures happening if the life span of an
aluminum bike frame were only 5 years?
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Date: 30 Jun 2007 19:19:53
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
catzz66 wrote:
> wizardB wrote:
>>>
>> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
>> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
>> be longer but it will fail
>
> I would expect that there are hundreds of thousands of aluminum frames
> on the road every week, just in the US. No offense meant, but wouldn't
> there be chronic frame failures happening if the life span of an
> aluminum bike frame were only 5 years?
most bikes and frames never see much use the 5 yr. refers to a bike that
is used regularly you will see catastrophic failures sometimes but
mostly you will see other types of frame failure,seat tube,head tube,
rear dropouts , bottom bracket and other places that take constant
stress,if you push your bike regularly you will see these failures if
you just pedal and never or hardly push your bike you won't notice and
maybe not have these problems.
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Date: 29 Jun 2007 20:30:35
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
wizardB wrote:
> All aluminum frames have a finite life (about5 years)and then the
> aluminum starts to go brittle and fail if your don't ride much it will
> be longer but it will fail
{cough} bullshit {cough}
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 18:18:05
From:
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 25, 8:06 pm, Paul Cassel <pcasselremo...@comremovecast.net >
wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> > Sorry, I should have given more information. Front indexed shifting, when
> > going from a smaller to larger chainring, requires a bit more work than the
> > rear, at least with Shimano. You need to move the lever all the way to the
> > end of its travel and hold it there for a moment. This needs to be explained
> > to newcomers, especially since, when new, the relatively-stiff chain will be
> > a bit more likely to make that shift (without as much effort) as it will
> > once broken in.
>
> > Those with smaller hands, which means many women, have a more difficult time
> > making this shift (due to the extent of lever throw required). If you have a
> > crankset that doesn't shift as well as another, that adds to the problem,
> > making it even more difficult (because you'll have to hold the lever in
> > place longer, to allow it to catch and jump up to the next-larger
> > chainring).
>
> Thanks, Mike. I have 'that other brand' of gruppo so I never experienced
> what you write about. I move the lever, it shifts the chain. End of
> story. I also have giant hands.
>
> -paul
Tried the Dolce and various other women's geometry frames and we (and
a couple of astute bike shops) realized that she fits better on a
standard geometry frame. She's got a slightly longer torso for her
height than many women, so she felt a little cramped on the wsd
frames.
Given that she will probably put at most 1000 miles per year on the
bike, we're looking for a good balance between performance, price and
longevity. The price for either bike is not trivial and I'd like to
see her happily riding this bike 15 years from now. I have heard some
discussions about the longevity of Ksyrium wheels in specific and
Mavic wheels in general. Is this something that I should be concerned
about with the Aksium wheels (she weighs 150 and knows I'm writing
this)? Is it realistic to plan to ride it for 15+ years and will the
Comp have a better chance of reaching that age or a lower cost of
ownership (105 chainrings possibly lasting longer than the Sugino
rings etc.)?
Thanks,
John
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Date: 26 Jun 2007 06:42:41
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
jcmweb@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Given that she will probably put at most 1000 miles per year on the
> bike, we're looking for a good balance between performance, price and
> longevity. The price for either bike is not trivial and I'd like to
> see her happily riding this bike 15 years from now. I have heard some
> discussions about the longevity of Ksyrium wheels in specific and
> Mavic wheels in general. Is this something that I should be concerned
> about with the Aksium wheels (she weighs 150 and knows I'm writing
> this)? Is it realistic to plan to ride it for 15+ years and will the
> Comp have a better chance of reaching that age or a lower cost of
> ownership (105 chainrings possibly lasting longer than the Sugino
> rings etc.)?
>
>
That is probably pretty light use for the stock Alex wheels even on the
Elite, given her size. I went to the Mavic Open Sport (ultegra hubs,
better spokes) after the first 1100 miles and have had no problem with
them either. Good luck, whatever you decide. I guess for me, I would
rather spend the extra money on some really good wheels that I picked out.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 10:52:01
From: SlowRunner
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 24, 3:48 pm, jcm...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
> Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
> at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
> bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
> Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
> Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
> mixed drivetrain?
I've had an Allez for about 5 years. I'm not a complete weenie, but I
don't hammer that much, either. I put about 3-4K miles of moderate
riding on it per year.
One of the original Tiagra STI levers died after about 3 years, so I
replaced both levers with 105's. Then the rear hub on the original
Alex wheels started making raspy noises last year. My LBS cleaned out
the hub but said it might be wise to replace the wheels before long,
so I bought a pair of Aksiums on sale. So far, they've been great.
It's worth mentioning that during this process I exchanged e-mail with
Specialized and they expressed surprise that the Alex rims had lasted
4 years/16,000 miles. That did nothing for my confidence in those
wheels.
Overall I've been very happy with my Allez. I put many happy miles on
it every year. Just be aware that if you opt for the cheaper bike, it
may not be equipped for someone who rides 3,000+ miles per year, even
if they're gentle with it.
-JR
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Date: 27 Jun 2007 10:13:54
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
" > It's worth mentioning that during this process I exchanged e-mail with
> Specialized and they expressed surprise that the Alex rims had lasted
> 4 years/16,000 miles. That did nothing for my confidence in those
> wheels.
> -JR
-----------
Mine lasted 4000 miles, they were total sh*t.
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 16:42:18
From: bdbafh
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 24, 5:48 pm, jcm...@yahoo.com wrote:
> 2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
> Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
> at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
> bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
> Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
> Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
> mixed drivetrain?
>
> John
>
> PS- Thanks for all the advice on my previous questions.
Have you considered the Specialized Dolce model as well for her?
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 06:27:29
From: catzz66
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
jcmweb@yahoo.com wrote:
> 2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
> Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
> at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
> bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
> Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
> Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
> mixed drivetrain?
>
> John
>
> PS- Thanks for all the advice on my previous questions.
>
Never ridden the Comp, but have had the Elite Triple for two years. It
is a very reliable ride. Locally it is all 105, just like mine was. It
has been a very reliable ride for me. I alternate between it and
another (a little more expensive) bike and like the shifting better on
the Elite Triple. I have put about 2500 miles on it. Stock wheels were
okay, but I'm over 220 lbs and went to 32 spoke wheels rather than the
20 and 24 spoke ones that came with it. No problems for me with the
stock wheels for 1100 miles. I just feel a little more secure with more
spokes. Gave the Alex wheels to a lighter friend who is still running
them. If the major difference between the Elite Triple and the Comp is
the wheels, I would rather pick out my own wheels for the money.
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 17:32:12
From: Alex
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Jun 24, 6:51 pm, Paul Cassel <pcasselremo...@comremovecast.net >
wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Given that front shifting can be a major issue for those new to
> > cycling, it might make a difference to her.
>
> I don't understand this comment, Mike. In index shifting, well, you move
> to the next indexed point and the shifter shifts. I only have one index
> shifting bike, but it works that way. I can't see the 'challenge' in the
> thing unless it doesn't work at all. In which case, it needs adjusting.
Some chainrings shift better than others. It's not that they won't
shift,
but how smoothly and quickly it will shift varies. Shimano stuff
works
really well in this regard.
------------------
Alex
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 22:02:21
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
>2 days, 7 shops and we've narrowed the choice down to a 52cm
> Specialized Allez Triple. The Elite comes in at ~1000.00 and the Comp
> at ~$1400.00. Given that my fiancee will probably never drive either
> bike to its limits, is it worthwhile moving up to the Comp for $400?
> Is there anything to worry about with the Mavic Aksium wheels on the
> Comp? Will an all-105 drivetrain shift better and last longer than a
> mixed drivetrain?
>
> John
>
> PS- Thanks for all the advice on my previous questions.
I'm not a Specialized dealer so I don't have direct familiarity with the
models, but are both available in a frame style designed for women? That can
make quite a difference in ride comfort, which of course can make quite a
difference in terms of how much she'll actually ride the bike. As for the
drivetrain, the only thing I can guarantee is that a '105 crankset will
definitely shift better than any non-Shimano alternative. Nobody has yet to
come up with chainrings that shift as well as Shimano (on a Shimano STI
system). Given that front shifting can be a major issue for those new to
cycling, it might make a difference to her.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 16:51:47
From: Paul Cassel
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> Given that front shifting can be a major issue for those new to
> cycling, it might make a difference to her.
>
I don't understand this comment, Mike. In index shifting, well, you move
to the next indexed point and the shifter shifts. I only have one index
shifting bike, but it works that way. I can't see the 'challenge' in the
thing unless it doesn't work at all. In which case, it needs adjusting.
-paul
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Date: 24 Jun 2007 19:58:46
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
>> Given that front shifting can be a major issue for those new to cycling,
>> it might make a difference to her.
>>
>
> I don't understand this comment, Mike. In index shifting, well, you move
> to the next indexed point and the shifter shifts. I only have one index
> shifting bike, but it works that way. I can't see the 'challenge' in the
> thing unless it doesn't work at all. In which case, it needs adjusting.
>
> -paul
Sorry, I should have given more information. Front indexed shifting, when
going from a smaller to larger chainring, requires a bit more work than the
rear, at least with Shimano. You need to move the lever all the way to the
end of its travel and hold it there for a moment. This needs to be explained
to newcomers, especially since, when new, the relatively-stiff chain will be
a bit more likely to make that shift (without as much effort) as it will
once broken in.
Those with smaller hands, which means many women, have a more difficult time
making this shift (due to the extent of lever throw required). If you have a
crankset that doesn't shift as well as another, that adds to the problem,
making it even more difficult (because you'll have to hold the lever in
place longer, to allow it to catch and jump up to the next-larger
chainring).
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 18:06:22
From: Paul Cassel
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> Sorry, I should have given more information. Front indexed shifting, when
> going from a smaller to larger chainring, requires a bit more work than the
> rear, at least with Shimano. You need to move the lever all the way to the
> end of its travel and hold it there for a moment. This needs to be explained
> to newcomers, especially since, when new, the relatively-stiff chain will be
> a bit more likely to make that shift (without as much effort) as it will
> once broken in.
>
> Those with smaller hands, which means many women, have a more difficult time
> making this shift (due to the extent of lever throw required). If you have a
> crankset that doesn't shift as well as another, that adds to the problem,
> making it even more difficult (because you'll have to hold the lever in
> place longer, to allow it to catch and jump up to the next-larger
> chainring).
>
Thanks, Mike. I have 'that other brand' of gruppo so I never experienced
what you write about. I move the lever, it shifts the chain. End of
story. I also have giant hands.
-paul
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Date: 25 Jun 2007 08:41:31
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Allez Elite vs Allez Comp
|
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:51:47 -0600, Paul Cassel wrote:
> I don't understand this comment, Mike. In index shifting, well, you move
> to the next indexed point and the shifter shifts. I only have one index
> shifting bike, but it works that way.
Yes, but how /well/ does it work that way? Does it always shift quickly and
cleanly under load? There's more to designing a good indexed shifting
system than just moving the chain over by the cog spacing.
--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
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