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Main
Date: 08 May 2007 06:42:59
From: JennyB
Subject: All-rounder frame wanted
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I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
fixed, or with derailleurs.
I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
suitable in the same price range?
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Date: 10 May 2007 07:13:54
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
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On May 9, 4:02 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 9, 2:30 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
> <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
>
>
> > > > I suppose all of you new
> > > > bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> > > > on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>
> > > You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> > > Russell. Can the bullshit.
>
> > Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> > is some kind of unbelievable experience?
>
> Not _unbelievable_, but _unnecessary_, caused by the poor design of an
> unneeded degree of complexity. But I guess *you* weren't around back
> when shift lever failure was practically unheard of.
I dealt with friction stem and downtube shifters for many years.
Having to srew in the outer wingnut to get the dang things to hold.
Or on ones without the wingnut you had to remember to get out the
screw driver and do it before or during a ride when the shifter would
not hold its position. You seem to forget this very common
disfunction with friction shifters. I remember it very well.
I'm aware Simplex made the ratchet downtube shifters. And Suntour had
ratchet bar end shifters. I think it was somewhat common for pros
riding Campagnolo to have Simplex downtube shifters because the
ratchet function eliminated the too tight, too loose problem with
friction shifters. Seems the pros knew friction shifters were crap.
I'll take the every 5 year rebuilding of Ergo levers over the daily
hassle of friction shifters not staying in gear if easy to shift, or
staying in gear if you tighten them up so much they are danged hard to
shift.
>
> > If you truely have
> > overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> > headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> > to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> > normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> > bike.
>
> Utter BULLSHIT.
>
> > But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> > cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> > overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> > defect.
>
> Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
> such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
> only disposable does not change that fact.
Air nailers are more complex than regular hammers. Break down more.
Costlier to fix. I would not want to build a house without an air
nailer. It has definite advantages over the normal nailer. Ergo has
advantages for me over downtube shifters. And over bar end shifters
too. I like bar end shifters though and use them on the touring
bike. I will happily put up with the extra complexity and maintenance
of Ergo shifters over the other choices.
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Date: 10 May 2007 21:08:33
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
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In article
<1178806434.871681.144960@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com >,
"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <russellseaton1@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I dealt with friction stem and downtube shifters for many years.
> Having to srew in the outer wingnut to get the dang things to hold.
> Or on ones without the wingnut you had to remember to get out the
> screw driver and do it before or during a ride when the shifter would
> not hold its position. You seem to forget this very common
> disfunction with friction shifters. I remember it very well.
Some down tube shifters just work; and never go out of adjustment.
I took apart a set of fifteen year old Shimano friction shifters
on a lark a few months ago after about eight years. Turns out they
did not need cleaning or greasing. My nine speed down tube click
shifters are only about five years old, so I cannot speak for
their longevity; but I can say that they have not gone out of
adjustment. .
--
Michael Press
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Date: 09 May 2007 21:24:36
From: PiledHIgher
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 10, 12:44 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking the
hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
proposition. Having the brifters under your hands is very reassuring
for beginners.
Maybe proper shifting will be learnt earlier because it is only one
skill to learn at a time.
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Date: 10 May 2007 00:02:58
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
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PiledHIgher wrote:
> On May 10, 12:44 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
>> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
>> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
>> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
>> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
>> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking the
> hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
> proposition.
It was?
Greg
--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
Dethink to survive - Mclusky
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Date: 10 May 2007 06:56:42
From: Helmut Springer
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
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PiledHIgher <PiledHigher@gmail.com > wrote:
> You obviously don't remember when you started cycling and taking
> the hands off the bars to use the downtube shifter was a scary
> proposition.
Hm...kids typically learn cycling on bicycles without shifters, and
riding one handed is the most natural thing to do for them after
rather short time...
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer
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Date: 09 May 2007 19:44:29
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
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On May 9, 9:23 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> -snip much-
> >>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>> I suppose all of you new
> >>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> >>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
> >>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> >>>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
> >> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> >>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
> >>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> >>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> >>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> >>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> >>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> >>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> >>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> >>> defect.
> > A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
> >> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
> >> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
> >> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
> >> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
> > frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
> > once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
> > or an overly complex component. YMMV.
>
> I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
> a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
>
> If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
> lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
> dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?
I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
essentially unserviceable.
IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
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Date: 10 May 2007 04:55:01
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <1178765069.624002.295600@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 9, 9:23 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >> -snip much-
> > >>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> I suppose all of you new
> > >>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> > >>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
> > >>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> > >>>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
> > >> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> > >>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
> > >>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> > >>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> > >>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> > >>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> > >>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> > >>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> > >>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> > >>> defect.
> > > A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
> > >> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
> > >> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
> > >> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
> > >> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
> > > frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
> > > once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
> > > or an overly complex component. YMMV.
> >
> > I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
> > a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.
>
> Yes, that's what I'm saying.
>
> >
> > If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
> > lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
> > dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?
> I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
> that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
> If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
> device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
> chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
> essentially unserviceable.
>
> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).
No less a maker than Trek themselves (Their slogan: "Ignore Lance: it
was TOTALLY about the bike!") offers the Trek 520 with barcons. The
consumer is not bereft.
And yet.
Ask Mike Jacobusky how well the 520 sells. He mentioned it previously
(paraphrased: the biggest problem with selling it is the barcons...).
Do you know why people like brifters? They're fun! They're fun when
you're mock-sprinting against your friends, they're fun when you're
real-sprinting in a real race (by which I mean one in which first prize
is a box of Powerbars), and they're fun just to use from stoplight to
stoplight. Considering how "seriously" most "serious" bikes get used,
It's nice that they're fun.
As a value proposition, any new bike is a loser. The real deal is to buy
whatever "used ten times, then hung in the garage" bike you can find
most cheaply, probably something about two decades old these days.
Such a machine is no worse than the latest thing off the rack, and far
cheaper, reliability wise. A fanatical rider might change out the rear
wheel for a handbuilt freewheel wheel, And they might update the brakes
or derailers if deemed necessary. And then go ride.
I know this route: I ride a bike made before I was tall enough to ride
it, and I've ridden one older than me. They work. They're fine.
And yet I race on a bike with Veloce brifters, I CX on a bike with 105
brifters, and my underused MTB has XT triggers (9 speed for the road
bikes, and 8 speed for the MTB; cheap + used = happy me).
Heck, old rigid MTBs are both cheaper and tougher than old road bikes. I
picked a Univega with 7-speed trigger-shifter drivetrain (STX end to
end) out of the trash yesterday. It needs new shifter cable housings,
because the shifting isn't quite as crisp as I would like. I could
downgrade it to get more reliable shifters, but I don't think I will.
Trigger shifters reduce the brainload and increase the fun when riding
in traffic, and that's what the next user of that bike will do.
How reliable are modern drivetrains? Plenty reliable. And they're a lot
of fun.
What I hope I'm saying is that there are good reasons most riders opt
for push-button shifting, even when it means trading reliability. That's
because for most riders, they either won't reach the life limits of or
maintenance cycle of STI or Campy shifters, or they will happily pay the
upkeep to continue having fun (and, of course, the expense of that one
lost ride when the shifter craps out).
The good news is that you have not been pushed out of the market. New
lever shifters from both C and S are only a bike shop (or a web site)
away, and used ones are available from fine garage sales everywhere, as
well as less mercurial retail channels.
So what's the problem?
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 10 May 2007 21:17:42
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <rcousine-56964E.21550009052007@news.telus.net >,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca > wrote:
> Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
> component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
> used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
> to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
> the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).
I am good at putting effective search criteria into google, but
have failed to find sites offering down tube shifters except for
Shimano Dura Ace.
--
Michael Press
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Date: 11 May 2007 05:21:41
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <rubrum-1F2D5E.21174210052007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net >,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article <rcousine-56964E.21550009052007@news.telus.net>,
> Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca> wrote:
>
> > Shimano sells barcons. Campy sells barcons. Endless numbers of cruddy
> > component companies (think Falcon and Microshift) sell DT shifters. The
> > used market is afloat in the things with any number of clicks from zero
> > to nine (nine makes ten, as I only ever remember after trying to find
> > the extra one on whatever shifter I'm playing with off of a bike).
>
> I am good at putting effective search criteria into google, but
> have failed to find sites offering down tube shifters except for
> Shimano Dura Ace.
Ultegra 8, which also work with 7, available from Sheldon.
Record bar end shifters are the DT shifters without the DT mount, so you
can put them on whatever campy DT mount you can scrounge.
http://www.cycletrack.net/bikes/racing/thread389.html
The really low-end brands are likely sold entirely to the OEM market,
but if you really wanted to buy small numbers of mediocre shifters, you
could probably be accommodated. I would commend you to buy used Shimanos
instead.
All I'm saying is that anyone who actually wants DT shifters has widely
available commercial options.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
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Date: 09 May 2007 22:07:55
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
>>>> -snip much-
>>>>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I suppose all of you new
>>>>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>>>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>>>>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>>>>>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
>>>> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
>>>>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
>>>>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
>>>>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
>>>>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
>>>>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
>>>>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
>>>>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
>>>>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
>>>>> defect.
>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
>>>> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
>>>> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
>>>> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
>>>> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
>>> frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
>>> once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
>>> or an overly complex component. YMMV.
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
>> a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Yes, that's what I'm saying.
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
>> lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
>> dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
> that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
> If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
> device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
> chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
> essentially unserviceable.
>
> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
Yes, that's a practical analysis. But you are swimming upriver with that
in today's bike market.
Few new bike customers even notice my perfectly dependable 1953 Sturmey
Archer trigger right there next to my brake lever. If they did ask what
it is they would laugh at it.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 09 May 2007 19:52:51
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On May 9, 9:23 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> -snip much-
>>>>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I suppose all of you new
>>>>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>>>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>>>>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>>>>>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
>>>> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
>>>>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
>>>>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
>>>>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
>>>>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
>>>>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
>>>>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
>>>>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
>>>>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
>>>>> defect.
>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
>>>> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
>>>> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
>>>> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
>>>> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
>>> frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
>>> once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
>>> or an overly complex component. YMMV.
>> I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
>> a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.
>
> Yes, that's what I'm saying.
>
>> If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
>> lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
>> dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?
>
>
> I'm not making that sorta claim. It's entirely possible, even likely,
> that failure is inherent in such a needlessly complex shift mechanism.
failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.
> If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
> device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
> chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
> essentially unserviceable.
>
> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
>
>
|
| | | |
Date: 09 May 2007 22:11:07
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
-snip Ergo service-
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
>> device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
>> chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
>> essentially unserviceable.
>>
>> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
>> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
>> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
>> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
>> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
>> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
jim beam wrote:
> failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
> complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
> riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
> you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.
True. The dies-cast carrier was replaced by a much better carbon spring
carrier two years ago and a completely different mechanism debuted last
autumn.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | |
Date: 09 May 2007 20:14:14
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
A Muzi wrote:
> -snip Ergo service-
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> If so, packaging such a device together with an inherently reliable
>>> device like a brake lever is kinda like packaging a VCR in the same
>>> chassis with a TV. Stupid. Especially stupid if the shift component is
>>> essentially unserviceable.
>>>
>>> IMO, with the possible exception of racing applications, brifters as
>>> we know them are entirely unnecessary. The recreational cyclist is
>>> better served with designs patterned after the old Suntour Command
>>> shifters or DT shifter adapters such as Kelly Takeoffs. Or Barends.
>>> And, "flat bar" users are certainly better served with good ol'
>>> thumbshifters. Again, YMMV.
>
> jim beam wrote:
> > failure is indeed inherent in the campy shifter mechanism, but it's not
> > complexity, it's "oversight" of an elementary design flaw - a stress
> > riser in the root of the shifting collar post. eliminate that riser and
> > you'll push campy shifter failure mileage up by ten-fold.
>
> True. The dies-cast carrier was replaced by a much better carbon spring
> carrier two years ago and a completely different mechanism debuted last
> autumn.
got pics?
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 19:15:21
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 8:23 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> -snip gear lever discussion
>
> > On May 9, 8:29 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
> >> I started with 9 speed
> >> Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
> >> Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
> >> getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
> > "converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
> > those 9sp cassettes.
>
> -snip gratuitously rude-
???
>
> A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
> the limit screw obviates spoke mating.
>
I allowed this to become Campy 9/10 specific, mea culpa. My point was
that brifters make drivetrain changes all the more complex and costly.
In both the rear and the front. Not in all cases in all brands. But
all too often.
|
| | |
Date: 10 May 2007 04:58:55
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <1178763321.826502.245830@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 9, 8:23 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > -snip gear lever discussion
> >
> > > On May 9, 8:29 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
> > >> I started with 9 speed
> > >> Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
> > >> Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
> > >> getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > > But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
> > > "converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
> > > those 9sp cassettes.
> >
> > -snip gratuitously rude-
>
> ???
>
>
> >
> > A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
> > the limit screw obviates spoke mating.
> >
>
> I allowed this to become Campy 9/10 specific, mea culpa. My point was
> that brifters make drivetrain changes all the more complex and costly.
> In both the rear and the front. Not in all cases in all brands. But
> all too often.
Yeah, fair point. I'm writing this because I wrote a longer screed
elsewhere on this thread, and it wandered a bit.
Brifters are an increase in cost and complexity for the drivetrain, but
they make shifting more fun.
That's all. That's it. Bikes like the bikes we like are mostly bought
for fun, and integrated shifting is more fun.
Embrace the fun,
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 18:55:27
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 8:49 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> -snip much-
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>> I suppose all of you new
> >>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> >>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
> >> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> >> Russell. Can the bullshit.
> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> > is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
> > overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> > headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> > to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> > normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> > bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> > cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> > overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> > defect.
>
> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
>
> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
> --
Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
or an overly complex component. YMMV.
-30-
|
| | |
Date: 10 May 2007 05:43:22
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On 9 May 2007 18:55:27 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> What it *is* is the much more frequent failure of
> a component category (shift levers) where failure
> once was exceedingly rare.
>IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
>or an overly complex component. YMMV.
Yaah, a product that both beginners and some expereinced cyclists in
extremely demanding conditions (racers) love is poor design.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 21:23:57
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
>> -snip much-
>>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>> I suppose all of you new
>>>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>>>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>>>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
>> russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
>>> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
>>> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
>>> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
>>> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
>>> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
>>> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
>>> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
>>> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
>>> defect.
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
>> the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
>> rebuilding a worn DA STi.
>> We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
>> without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Right, Andrew, it ain't rocket science. What it *is* is the much more
> frequent failure of a component category (shift levers) where failure
> once was exceedingly rare. IMO, it's representative of poor design and/
> or an overly complex component. YMMV.
I think you're saying, 'Ergos may be pick of the litter but the field is
a bunch of dogs.'. OK, I can't say you are wrong about that.
If Modolo, SRAM, Shimano and Campagnolo can't/won't make an integrated
lever as dependable as a 1983 DA-6 SIS, why don't you just make one,
dominate the category and make a bazillion dollars?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 19:43:30
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On Thu, 10 May 2007 00:12:45 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <f1td2j$72m$1@news.Stanford.EDU>,
> "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> "Gary Young" <garyyoung3@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:sp6dnTpGjb5jsd_bnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>> >>
>> >> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
>> >> do all of this drivetrain switching?
>> >
>> > Kitchen.
>>
>>
>> LOL, good one Gary!
>> -tom
>
> He's not joking, is he?
Nope. I have a basement workroom now, but when I lived in NYC, I made do
with whatever room I could spare in various shoebox-sized apartments.
>
> My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
> the kitchen or in the spare room.
>
> As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
> the house.
>
|
| | |
Date: 10 May 2007 02:05:09
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <sp6dnTVGjb4v99_bnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com >,
Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 10 May 2007 00:12:45 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > In article <f1td2j$72m$1@news.Stanford.EDU>,
> > "Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> "Gary Young" <garyyoung3@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:sp6dnTpGjb5jsd_bnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
> >> >> do all of this drivetrain switching?
> >> >
> >> > Kitchen.
> >>
> >>
> >> LOL, good one Gary!
> >> -tom
> >
> > He's not joking, is he?
>
> Nope. I have a basement workroom now, but when I lived in NYC, I made do
> with whatever room I could spare in various shoebox-sized apartments.
>
> >
> > My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
> > the kitchen or in the spare room.
> >
> > As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
> > the house.
> >
Oh right, I forgot about the best NYC apartment bike-project ever:
http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1300
He built a wind tunnel big enough to fit a bike and rider in his
apartment.
First thought: that has to be the biggest apartment in NYC short of some
plutocratic penthouses.
Best comment:
Once again, you provide the rest of us with an example we can point to
when our wives/girlfriends/significant others complain about buying a
new bike, or another set of wheels. We can always just direct her
attention your way, and say "Honey, at least I am not doing [Insert
Andy's Latest Project Here], this takes up 1/10th the space that does."
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| | | |
Date: 10 May 2007 05:44:58
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On Thu, 10 May 2007 02:05:09 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@sfu.ca >
wrote:
>Oh right, I forgot about the best NYC apartment bike-project ever:
>
>http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1300
>
>He built a wind tunnel big enough to fit a bike and rider in his
>apartment.
>
>First thought: that has to be the biggest apartment in NYC short of some
>plutocratic penthouses.
He uses part of that as a photo study, so it's bigger than average.
But yeah, Andy makes a nice living and has a nice space.
>
>Best comment:
>
>Once again, you provide the rest of us with an example we can point to
>when our wives/girlfriends/significant others complain about buying a
>new bike, or another set of wheels. We can always just direct her
>attention your way, and say "Honey, at least I am not doing [Insert
>Andy's Latest Project Here], this takes up 1/10th the space that does."
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 14:23:18
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>
> Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
> such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
> only disposable does not change that fact.
Sad but true-- and such crappy shifters are woefully pervasive these
days. I have index thumbies from the late '80s that have been in
regular use since then with _no mechanical attention whatsoever_. It
ain't good bidness for Sh*mano, but it's good economy for you and
me.
Chalo
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 14:02:11
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 2:30 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
<snipped >
>
> > > I suppose all of you new
> > > bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> > > on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>
> > You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> > Russell. Can the bullshit.
>
> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> is some kind of unbelievable experience?
Not _unbelievable_, but _unnecessary_, caused by the poor design of an
unneeded degree of complexity. But I guess *you* weren't around back
when shift lever failure was practically unheard of.
> If you truely have
> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> bike.
Utter BULLSHIT.
> But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> defect.
Shift levers that routinely fail are of poor design. The fact that one
such poor design (Ergo) is repairable and another poor design (STI) is
only disposable does not change that fact.
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 15:20:14
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On Wed, 09 May 2007 06:15:51 -0700, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 8, 4:50 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 May 2007 14:02:46 -0700, russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > On May 8, 2:50 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> russellseaton wrote:
>>
>> >> > JennyB wrote:
>>
>> >> > > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
>> >> > > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
>> >> > > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
>> >> > > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
>> >> > > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
>> >> > > fixed, or with derailleurs.
>>
>> >> > Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
>> >> > hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
>> >> > derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.
>>
>> >> Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
>> >> vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
>> >> seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
>> >> seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
>> >> seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
>> >> speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.
>>
>> >> Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
>> >> bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
>> >> Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
>> >> switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
>> >> slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
>> >> anything.
>>
>> >> For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
>> >> never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
>> >> implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
>> >> disabled or something?
>>
>> >> Chalo
>>
>> > I spend too much of my time riding my bikes to spend changing entire
>> > drivetrains. I have a fixed gear bike. I bought a cheap old frame
>> > with horizontal dropouts and made it a fixed gear bike. It will
>> > always be a fixed gear bike. I have derailleur bikes. They will
>> > always be derailleur bikes. Since they started as 9 or 10 speed, I
>> > doubt I will ever change them to other numbers of gears. I've never
>> > been one of these jack of all trades bike people. One bike does not
>> > do everything well. Get a good bike for its purpose and enjoy it. If
>> > you have a different purpose in mind, get a bike best suited for that
>> > purpose and enjoy it.
>>
>> The OP may be an apartment dweller who doesn't have room for a stable of
>> bikes. Or doesn't have the funds.
>
> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
> do all of this drivetrain switching?
Kitchen.
> And the funds to have complete
> sets of drivetrains to switch back and forth on the bike?
Cheaper than whole bikes.
> Stable of
> bikes? One derailleur bike and one fixed/single speed bike.
That may be enough for you, but I thought we were talking about the OP,
whose needs or interests were broader than that.
> A little
> harder to store than one bike, but not much harder to store two
> bikes.
The bulkiest thing about a drive-train change is the rear wheel.
> And fixed gear bikes can be put together real cheap. Old used
> junk frame and fork. Old freewheel wheel with a single cog and
> spacers.
>
>
Ultimately, I guess I don't understand why you object to the OP's plans.
You said earlier that it's all about enjoying the bike. For you, that
means riding instead of maintenance. But other people really, really enjoy
working on bikes, at least part of the time.
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 14:05:23
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
"Gary Young" <garyyoung3@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:sp6dnTpGjb5jsd_bnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
>> do all of this drivetrain switching?
>
> Kitchen.
LOL, good one Gary!
-tom
|
| | | |
Date: 10 May 2007 00:12:45
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <f1td2j$72m$1@news.Stanford.EDU >,
"Tom Nakashima" <tom@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "Gary Young" <garyyoung3@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:sp6dnTpGjb5jsd_bnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >>
> >> But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
> >> do all of this drivetrain switching?
> >
> > Kitchen.
>
>
> LOL, good one Gary!
> -tom
He's not joking, is he?
My house is less than 900 sq. ft. In the winter, I build bikes either in
the kitchen or in the spare room.
As you can imagine, this goes over like a lead balloon with the lady of
the house.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 12:33:14
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 10:16 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@sfu.ca > wrote:
> In article <1178717395.657475.220...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> "russellseat...@yahoo.com" <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
> > > <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > <snip>
>
> > > > I use Campagnolo
> > > > on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> > > > complications. It just works the way its supposed to work
>
> > > Campagnolo xx-speed only on a given bike. No simple options, no simple
> > > choices.
>
> > If I start with a Campagnolo 9 speed bike why would I want to change
> > it? I have 7 speed bar end shifters on a touring bike. Thought about
> > giong to 9 speed but as you say, no simple options. Have to buy a new
> > 9 speed bar end shifter or 9 speed STI. Have to buy a new freehub
> > body to change my wheel from 7 speed to 9 speed. Have to redish my
> > rear wheel. Have to buy a new 9 speed cassette. Have to buy a new 9
> > speed chain. You speak as if changing the number of cogs on a bike is
> > simple! Have you ever done it? In the above scenario even if I
> > switched to friction only, all that would eliminate is buying the new
> > bar end shifter.
>
> I've done it. Multiple times. To frames so old they had to be respaced,
> which I have also done, multiple times.
As you state, old frames. Not frames so new you haven't even bought
the new frame yet. That is a pretty new frame if you haven't even
bought the frame yet.
>
> I usually take the shortcut of getting a new rear wheel, since that's
> often inexpensive, and I don't think any local shop is likely to have a
> freehub in stock. That said, freehubs are easy to change, and the tool
> required for wheel respacing is a spoke wrench.
>
> I'm no fan of gear changing for change's sake: my commuter still has the
> 6x3 drivetrain it was born with (or is it five? I'm not going to check).
> You probably have good reasons for staying with 7, and I wouldn't
> discourage you from doing so.
>
> But your argument against changing to 9 did remind me of this comic
> strip...
>
> WARNING: very bad language, hooker jokes, Olive Garden:
>
> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/08/25
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau rcous...@sfu.cahttp://www.wiredcola.com/
> "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
> to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 12:30:26
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 9:47 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 9, 8:29 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
> > > <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > <snipped for clarity>
>
> > > > those Kelly take off thumb
> > > > lever things
>
> > > Let's be clear, Russell. Kelly Take-offs allow one to mount dead-
> > > simple, ultra reliable down tube levers (or, just the business end of
> > > bar-end levers) in a location close to the brake hoods, a nice touch
> > > for those who want their shifters near their brakes, but don't want
> > > the limitations imposed by STI/Ergo/SRAM. Nothing to do with thumb
> > > shifters, AFAICT. Far from being a "complication", Take-offs allow one
> > > to switch from, say, Campy to Shimano RDs with the mere change of the
> > > RH lever (with the appropriate wheel, of course). Or, to switch
> > > between 7/8/9/10 speed rears with *either* the mere change of the RH
> > > lever *or* (when available, as in Shimano levers) a switch to friction
> > > mode. And, the appropriate change of rear cassette/freewheel.
>
> > > Sounds a lot simpler to me than worrying about getting the correct
> > > brifter or "converting" a brifter to the wanted configuration. Or
> > > rebuilding those brifters _when_ (not if) they fail. Or tossing the
> > > non-rebuildable ones.
>
> > What do you mean getting the correct brifter?
>
> Getting the "correct brifter" is an issue for many who want to go
> from, say, 8 to 9 or 9 to 10.
>
> > I started with 9 speed
> > Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
> > Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
> > getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
>
> But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
> "converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
> those 9sp cassettes.
Yes convert the Ergos. But no to no more using 9 speed cassettes.
Shimano people write this. My 9 speed Veloce and Mirage loose cogs
can be substituted into 10 speed Veloce loose cog cassettes perfectly
well. They are the same cogs. Only the offset last cog on 10 speed
cassettes and first cog on 9 and 10 speed cassettes with built in
spacer are different. All the middle ones are identical. So I will
replace the 14 through 21 cogs on my 12-23 10 speed Veloce cassette
with the dirt cheap 14 through 21 cogs from a Mirage 13-23 Mirage 9
speed cassette.
>
>
>
> > As for rebuildable Ergo, yes they are.
>
> Yeah, pretty much routine maintenence (i.e., they will fail).
>
> <snip>
>
> > I suppose all of you new
> > bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> > on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>
> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
> Russell. Can the bullshit.
Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
defect.
>
> <snip>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 20:49:39
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
-snip much-
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> I suppose all of you new
>>> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
>>> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>> You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
>> Russell. Can the bullshit.
russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> Really? Then why do you make comments about rebuilding Ergo as if it
> is some kind of unbelievable experience? If you truely have
> overhauled, maintained loose ball bearing bottom brackets, and
> headsets, and hubs then you would not even mention the fact you have
> to do maintenance on Ergo shifters once or twice a decade. Just
> normal maintenance like all of the other bearing/grease items on a
> bike. But new people to bikes who go for Shimano STI and Mavic
> cartridge bearing wheels have never maintained bikes. And would think
> overhauling Ergo shifters once or twice a decade is some kind of
> defect.
And Russel isn't a pro mechanic AFAIK. I'm ready to race anyone, even
the otherworldly Bill Cotton. Me rebuilding a worn Ergo, other guy
rebuilding a worn DA STi.
We sell Ergo spring sets to regular guys who manage their rebuilds
without much trouble or prior experience. It just isn't rocket science.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 11:47:33
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Russell Seato wrote
>
> People love to go to endless lengths to add
> complications to their lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo
> on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> complications. It just works the way its supposed to work.
So you find that Euclid mixes interchangeably with Valentino and
Record 10 speed? Maybe I should use Campy too, then.
To be frank, I often change drivetrains on my bikes because while
parts are common, frames that work for me are not. If I waste a
dished wheel, I might change to something dishless (which could be a
gearhub). If I want more gearing range, I might have to update from
whatever I'm using to get it. Maybe I migrate all the parts off one
frame and onto another so I can use bigger tires-- then I figure out
what to do with the old frame. Broken and worn-out parts offer an
opportunity to try something new.
Not everybody faces the same issues. I know that I get more occasions
to experiment than most cyclists do. But no matter what your
inclinations, I can't see a downside to having frames that can be
built up any way you like. Things like vertical dropouts and 130mm
spaced carbon stays get in the way of that.
Chalo
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 12:21:46
From: Dane Buson
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> Russell Seato wrote
>>
>> People love to go to endless lengths to add complications to their
>> lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo on my bikes. Only
>> Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No complications. It just works
>> the way its supposed to work.
>
> Not everybody faces the same issues. I know that I get more occasions
> to experiment than most cyclists do. But no matter what your
> inclinations, I can't see a downside to having frames that can be
> built up any way you like. Things like vertical dropouts and 130mm
> spaced carbon stays get in the way of that.
I'm waiting for the frame warranty to run out on my Surly. I might
space it to 145 and drop a tandem hub in there. Of course, that's sort
of pointless since I doubt the Halo SpinDoctor hub is going to break
anytime soon. But if I had too...
Which reminds me, I should see if I can regrease the sealed bearings in
the hub. I think it's pretty far down my list though.
--
Dane Buson - sigdane@unixbigots.org
"You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid."
-In a Japanese Hotel
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 07:47:01
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 9, 8:29 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
> > <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <snipped for clarity>
>
> > > those Kelly take off thumb
> > > lever things
>
> > Let's be clear, Russell. Kelly Take-offs allow one to mount dead-
> > simple, ultra reliable down tube levers (or, just the business end of
> > bar-end levers) in a location close to the brake hoods, a nice touch
> > for those who want their shifters near their brakes, but don't want
> > the limitations imposed by STI/Ergo/SRAM. Nothing to do with thumb
> > shifters, AFAICT. Far from being a "complication", Take-offs allow one
> > to switch from, say, Campy to Shimano RDs with the mere change of the
> > RH lever (with the appropriate wheel, of course). Or, to switch
> > between 7/8/9/10 speed rears with *either* the mere change of the RH
> > lever *or* (when available, as in Shimano levers) a switch to friction
> > mode. And, the appropriate change of rear cassette/freewheel.
>
> > Sounds a lot simpler to me than worrying about getting the correct
> > brifter or "converting" a brifter to the wanted configuration. Or
> > rebuilding those brifters _when_ (not if) they fail. Or tossing the
> > non-rebuildable ones.
>
> What do you mean getting the correct brifter?
Getting the "correct brifter" is an issue for many who want to go
from, say, 8 to 9 or 9 to 10.
> I started with 9 speed
> Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
> Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
> getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
"converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
those 9sp cassettes.
>
> As for rebuildable Ergo, yes they are.
Yeah, pretty much routine maintenence (i.e., they will fail).
<snip >
> I suppose all of you new
> bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
> on bicycles used to be a common thing.
You haven't been riding bike or working on bikes as long as I have,
Russell. Can the bullshit.
<snip >
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 20:23:11
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
-snip gear lever discussion
> On May 9, 8:29 am, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>> I started with 9 speed
>> Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
>> Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
>> getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> But, if you want to "upgrade" to Campy 10, the Ergos need to be
> "converted" from 9 to 10. and, it's a one way street, no more using
> those 9sp cassettes.
-snip gratuitously rude-
A Campagnolo Ten ergo can shift a nine with no difficulties. Make sure
the limit screw obviates spoke mating.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 06:29:55
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
>
> <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <snipped for clarity>
>
> > those Kelly take off thumb
> > lever things
>
> Let's be clear, Russell. Kelly Take-offs allow one to mount dead-
> simple, ultra reliable down tube levers (or, just the business end of
> bar-end levers) in a location close to the brake hoods, a nice touch
> for those who want their shifters near their brakes, but don't want
> the limitations imposed by STI/Ergo/SRAM. Nothing to do with thumb
> shifters, AFAICT. Far from being a "complication", Take-offs allow one
> to switch from, say, Campy to Shimano RDs with the mere change of the
> RH lever (with the appropriate wheel, of course). Or, to switch
> between 7/8/9/10 speed rears with *either* the mere change of the RH
> lever *or* (when available, as in Shimano levers) a switch to friction
> mode. And, the appropriate change of rear cassette/freewheel.
>
> Sounds a lot simpler to me than worrying about getting the correct
> brifter or "converting" a brifter to the wanted configuration. Or
> rebuilding those brifters _when_ (not if) they fail. Or tossing the
> non-rebuildable ones.
What do you mean getting the correct brifter? I started with 9 speed
Ergo, Campagnolo rear derailleur, Campagnolo rear hub wheel,
Campagnolo 9 speed cassette. Pretty darn simple. They all work. No
getting the right this or that. Or an adaptor.
As for rebuildable Ergo, yes they are. When I crashed and broke the
shifter body, I was able to buy a new part and rebuild it. A friend
wants to change his 8 speed Ergo to 9 speed. Ordered the parts from
Mr. Chisholm's shop. Every now and then you have to do maintenance on
the Ergo by replacing the G springs. Every year I overhaul the hubs
on my bikes and regrease them. Used to annually overhaul my cup and
cone and ball bearing bottom bracket before these cartridge bearing
things became ubiquitous. I overhaul my headset each year too. I do
not own any cartridge bearing wheels but I hear they are prevalent now
days. And headsets have gone that way too. I suppose all of you new
bicyclists who bought bikes because of Lance don't realize maintenance
on bicycles used to be a common thing.
>
> <snip>
>
> > I use Campagnolo
> > on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> > complications. It just works the way its supposed to work
>
> Campagnolo xx-speed only on a given bike. No simple options, no simple
> choices.
If I start with a Campagnolo 9 speed bike why would I want to change
it? I have 7 speed bar end shifters on a touring bike. Thought about
giong to 9 speed but as you say, no simple options. Have to buy a new
9 speed bar end shifter or 9 speed STI. Have to buy a new freehub
body to change my wheel from 7 speed to 9 speed. Have to redish my
rear wheel. Have to buy a new 9 speed cassette. Have to buy a new 9
speed chain. You speak as if changing the number of cogs on a bike is
simple! Have you ever done it? In the above scenario even if I
switched to friction only, all that would eliminate is buying the new
bar end shifter.
|
| | |
Date: 09 May 2007 15:16:34
From: Ryan Cousineau
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
In article <1178717395.657475.220930@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >,
"russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <russellseaton1@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 8, 4:31 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
> >
> > <russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > > I use Campagnolo
> > > on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> > > complications. It just works the way its supposed to work
> >
> > Campagnolo xx-speed only on a given bike. No simple options, no simple
> > choices.
>
> If I start with a Campagnolo 9 speed bike why would I want to change
> it? I have 7 speed bar end shifters on a touring bike. Thought about
> giong to 9 speed but as you say, no simple options. Have to buy a new
> 9 speed bar end shifter or 9 speed STI. Have to buy a new freehub
> body to change my wheel from 7 speed to 9 speed. Have to redish my
> rear wheel. Have to buy a new 9 speed cassette. Have to buy a new 9
> speed chain. You speak as if changing the number of cogs on a bike is
> simple! Have you ever done it? In the above scenario even if I
> switched to friction only, all that would eliminate is buying the new
> bar end shifter.
I've done it. Multiple times. To frames so old they had to be respaced,
which I have also done, multiple times.
I usually take the shortcut of getting a new rear wheel, since that's
often inexpensive, and I don't think any local shop is likely to have a
freehub in stock. That said, freehubs are easy to change, and the tool
required for wheel respacing is a spoke wrench.
I'm no fan of gear changing for change's sake: my commuter still has the
6x3 drivetrain it was born with (or is it five? I'm not going to check).
You probably have good reasons for staying with 7, and I wouldn't
discourage you from doing so.
But your argument against changing to 9 did remind me of this comic
strip...
WARNING: very bad language, hooker jokes, Olive Garden:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/08/25
--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@sfu.ca http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
|
| |
Date: 09 May 2007 06:15:51
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 4:50 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 14:02:46 -0700, russellseat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On May 8, 2:50 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> russellseaton wrote:
>
> >> > JennyB wrote:
>
> >> > > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> >> > > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> >> > > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> >> > > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> >> > > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> >> > > fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> >> > Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
> >> > hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
> >> > derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.
>
> >> Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
> >> vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
> >> seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
> >> seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
> >> seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
> >> speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.
>
> >> Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
> >> bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
> >> Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
> >> switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
> >> slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
> >> anything.
>
> >> For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
> >> never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
> >> implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
> >> disabled or something?
>
> >> Chalo
>
> > I spend too much of my time riding my bikes to spend changing entire
> > drivetrains. I have a fixed gear bike. I bought a cheap old frame
> > with horizontal dropouts and made it a fixed gear bike. It will
> > always be a fixed gear bike. I have derailleur bikes. They will
> > always be derailleur bikes. Since they started as 9 or 10 speed, I
> > doubt I will ever change them to other numbers of gears. I've never
> > been one of these jack of all trades bike people. One bike does not
> > do everything well. Get a good bike for its purpose and enjoy it. If
> > you have a different purpose in mind, get a bike best suited for that
> > purpose and enjoy it.
>
> The OP may be an apartment dweller who doesn't have room for a stable of
> bikes. Or doesn't have the funds.
But an apartment dweller would have the space for a workshop area to
do all of this drivetrain switching? And the funds to have complete
sets of drivetrains to switch back and forth on the bike? Stable of
bikes? One derailleur bike and one fixed/single speed bike. A little
harder to store than one bike, but not much harder to store two
bikes. And fixed gear bikes can be put together real cheap. Old used
junk frame and fork. Old freewheel wheel with a single cog and
spacers.
>
>
>
>
>
> > As for unimaginative, you could say that. When I see all of the
> > professional internet bicyclists on this forum yapping on and on about
> > mixing up Campagnolo, Shimano, 7-8-9-10 speed cassettes and freewheels
> > with downtube and bar end and Ergo/STI and those Kelly take off thumb
> > lever things and JTEK shiftmates and routing the wires over and under
> > different bolts, I laugh. People love to go to endless lengths to add
> > complications to their lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo
> > on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> > complications. It just works the way its supposed to work.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| |
Date: 08 May 2007 16:50:23
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On Tue, 08 May 2007 14:02:46 -0700, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 8, 2:50 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> russellseaton wrote:
>>
>> > JennyB wrote:
>>
>> > > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
>> > > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
>> > > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
>> > > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
>> > > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
>> > > fixed, or with derailleurs.
>>
>> > Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
>> > hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
>> > derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.
>>
>> Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
>> vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
>> seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
>> seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
>> seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
>> speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.
>>
>> Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
>> bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
>> Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
>> switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
>> slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
>> anything.
>>
>> For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
>> never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
>> implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
>> disabled or something?
>>
>> Chalo
>
> I spend too much of my time riding my bikes to spend changing entire
> drivetrains. I have a fixed gear bike. I bought a cheap old frame
> with horizontal dropouts and made it a fixed gear bike. It will
> always be a fixed gear bike. I have derailleur bikes. They will
> always be derailleur bikes. Since they started as 9 or 10 speed, I
> doubt I will ever change them to other numbers of gears. I've never
> been one of these jack of all trades bike people. One bike does not
> do everything well. Get a good bike for its purpose and enjoy it. If
> you have a different purpose in mind, get a bike best suited for that
> purpose and enjoy it.
The OP may be an apartment dweller who doesn't have room for a stable of
bikes. Or doesn't have the funds.
>
> As for unimaginative, you could say that. When I see all of the
> professional internet bicyclists on this forum yapping on and on about
> mixing up Campagnolo, Shimano, 7-8-9-10 speed cassettes and freewheels
> with downtube and bar end and Ergo/STI and those Kelly take off thumb
> lever things and JTEK shiftmates and routing the wires over and under
> different bolts, I laugh. People love to go to endless lengths to add
> complications to their lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo
> on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> complications. It just works the way its supposed to work.
|
| |
Date: 08 May 2007 22:35:51
From: Steve Watkin
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Paul Hewitt sells his cheviot frames on their own. Should fit your
requirements.
SW
"JennyB" <jennybrien@googlemail.com > wrote in message
news:1178631779.169219.38480@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
> suitable in the same price range?
>
|
| | |
Date: 08 May 2007 22:41:37
From: Steve Watkin
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Ah, missed the horizontal dropout requirement. Sorry.
SW
"Steve Watkin" <steve.watkin1@btinternet.com > wrote in message
news:qeudnfsG4PalcN3bnZ2dnUVZ8vqdnZ2d@bt.com...
> Paul Hewitt sells his cheviot frames on their own. Should fit your
> requirements.
>
> SW
>
>
>
> "JennyB" <jennybrien@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:1178631779.169219.38480@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
>> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
>> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
>> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
>> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
>> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>>
>> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
>> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
>> suitable in the same price range?
>>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 08 May 2007 16:35:16
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On Tue, 08 May 2007 06:42:59 -0700, JennyB wrote:
> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
> suitable in the same price range?
Salsa claims that their new Casseroll frame does it all:
http://tinyurl.com/2l9rp8
They say road geometry suitable for touring. Not sure I buy that, but ...
I couldn't find a UK listing for the Casseroll, but it looks like Salsa
has a distributor in the UK.
I've been looking off and on for a 700C frame for a Rohloff hub and the
closest thing I could find to what I want is this Canadian frame that uses
an eccentric bottom bracket instead of horizontal dropouts:
http://steelwoolbicycles.ca/frames.php
I suppose it would be quite expensive to have it shipped from Canada
though.
|
| | |
Date: 08 May 2007 20:24:42
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
> On Tue, 08 May 2007 06:42:59 -0700, JennyB wrote:
>> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
>> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
>> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
>> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
>> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
>> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>>
>> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
>> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
>> suitable in the same price range?
Gary Young wrote:
> Salsa claims that their new Casseroll frame does it all:
> http://tinyurl.com/2l9rp8
> They say road geometry suitable for touring. Not sure I buy that, but ...
> I couldn't find a UK listing for the Casseroll, but it looks like Salsa
> has a distributor in the UK.
> I've been looking off and on for a 700C frame for a Rohloff hub and the
> closest thing I could find to what I want is this Canadian frame that uses
> an eccentric bottom bracket instead of horizontal dropouts:
> http://steelwoolbicycles.ca/frames.php
> I suppose it would be quite expensive to have it shipped from Canada
> though.
Gunnar also offers an eccentric BB frameset and has a custom program if
you want to tweak their standard specs/geometry.
And they actually make the stuff with their name on it. Rare feature today.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 08 May 2007 14:35:11
From: 41
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
JennyB wrote:
> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
> suitable in the same price range?
JennyB wrote:
>I still like a fixed to just hop on and
> ride in the winter when I get the chance, but I'm old enough now not
> to try doing long rides on it. Maybe when I'm really fat and old I'll
> have saved enough for a Rohloff and I'll put that on and leave it
> there.
If you look at the dedicated Rohloff bicycles at SJScycles.co.uk in
their Thorn bicycle range, you'll see that to mount a Rohloff it's
nice to have special fittings and a bicyle designed for it. Not sure
that when you're old and fat you'll really want one anyway: after all,
they are less efficient. Derailleurs do work really well, after all.
As for the fixed part: have you considered getting a cheap used road
frame to use as dedicated? Would make life easier, for minimal cost.
If you still want to combine all your requirements into one, you
really need something custom, which if you live in the UK is the
logical choice anyway, given the vast selection of experienced
builders at low cost. The SJS Audax classic is quite nice and they can
tell you a lot about Rohloffs, would fit your spec to a T, except it
only takes up to 28 with mudgaurds. You need either cantilevers or
extralong sidepulls or long centrpulls to use 35 with mudgaurds
anyway. 32 with mudgaurds is easier with conventional equipment and
works well.
I suggest Mercian, SJS, or Bob Jackson. Prices are reasonable,
experience is vast, work is very good, and they can do anything you
want. I also suggest staying fit and thin and forgetting about the
Rohloff, and getting something used as a dedicated fixed wheeler.
Have fun on the new bicycle.
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Date: 08 May 2007 14:31:17
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 4:02 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
<snipped for clarity >
> those Kelly take off thumb
> lever things
Let's be clear, Russell. Kelly Take-offs allow one to mount dead-
simple, ultra reliable down tube levers (or, just the business end of
bar-end levers) in a location close to the brake hoods, a nice touch
for those who want their shifters near their brakes, but don't want
the limitations imposed by STI/Ergo/SRAM. Nothing to do with thumb
shifters, AFAICT. Far from being a "complication", Take-offs allow one
to switch from, say, Campy to Shimano RDs with the mere change of the
RH lever (with the appropriate wheel, of course). Or, to switch
between 7/8/9/10 speed rears with *either* the mere change of the RH
lever *or* (when available, as in Shimano levers) a switch to friction
mode. And, the appropriate change of rear cassette/freewheel.
Sounds a lot simpler to me than worrying about getting the correct
brifter or "converting" a brifter to the wanted configuration. Or
rebuilding those brifters _when_ (not if) they fail. Or tossing the
non-rebuildable ones.
<snip >
> I use Campagnolo
> on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> complications. It just works the way its supposed to work
Campagnolo xx-speed only on a given bike. No simple options, no simple
choices.
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Date: 08 May 2007 14:02:46
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 2:50 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote:
> russellseaton wrote:
>
> > JennyB wrote:
>
> > > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> > > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> > > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> > > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> > > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> > > fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> > Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
> > hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
> > derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.
>
> Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
> vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
> seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
> seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
> seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
> speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.
>
> Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
> bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
> Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
> switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
> slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
> anything.
>
> For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
> never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
> implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
> disabled or something?
>
> Chalo
I spend too much of my time riding my bikes to spend changing entire
drivetrains. I have a fixed gear bike. I bought a cheap old frame
with horizontal dropouts and made it a fixed gear bike. It will
always be a fixed gear bike. I have derailleur bikes. They will
always be derailleur bikes. Since they started as 9 or 10 speed, I
doubt I will ever change them to other numbers of gears. I've never
been one of these jack of all trades bike people. One bike does not
do everything well. Get a good bike for its purpose and enjoy it. If
you have a different purpose in mind, get a bike best suited for that
purpose and enjoy it.
As for unimaginative, you could say that. When I see all of the
professional internet bicyclists on this forum yapping on and on about
mixing up Campagnolo, Shimano, 7-8-9-10 speed cassettes and freewheels
with downtube and bar end and Ergo/STI and those Kelly take off thumb
lever things and JTEK shiftmates and routing the wires over and under
different bolts, I laugh. People love to go to endless lengths to add
complications to their lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo
on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
complications. It just works the way its supposed to work.
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Date: 08 May 2007 23:29:50
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> As for unimaginative, you could say that. When I see all of the
> professional internet bicyclists on this forum yapping on and on about
> mixing up Campagnolo, Shimano, 7-8-9-10 speed cassettes and freewheels
> with downtube and bar end and Ergo/STI and those Kelly take off thumb
> lever things and JTEK shiftmates and routing the wires over and under
> different bolts, I laugh. People love to go to endless lengths to add
> complications to their lives and then yap about it. I use Campagnolo
> on my bikes. Only Campagnolo. No adaptors needed. No
> complications. It just works the way its supposed to work.
>
It will get 'worse' now Sram is in the game. In some time people will
ask how to shift a 8 speed Shimano cassette with ten speed Ergo's and a
Sram RD...or vice versa
Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)
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Date: 08 May 2007 12:50:13
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
russellseaton wrote:
>
> JennyB wrote:
> >
> > I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> > It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> > rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> > Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> > dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> > fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
> hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
> derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow.
Have you never changed a bike from one speed to something else, or
vice versa? I have, many times. One of my current rides has had
seven speeds, eight speeds, and nine speeds with derailleurs, and
seven speeds with a hub gear. Another one has been a single speed, a
seven speed, a five speed, an electric bike with two separate one-
speed drivetrains, and then a single speed again.
Now that I reflect on it, all but one or two of my transportational
bikes have had more than one configuration of drivetrain on them.
Others have switched between coaster brakes and hub gears. When
switching around like that, it really helps to have horizontal dropout
slots. And when not switching parts around, they still don't hurt
anything.
For all we know, you could be some sort of unimaginative weirdo who
never messes with his bikes to change them around. I guess that's the
implication of your question. What's wrong with you? Are you
disabled or something?
Chalo
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Date: 08 May 2007 11:03:06
From: JennyB
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 3:44 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
> hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
> derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow. Do you
> have that much money to buy all of those spare parts to make these
> changes? And if you collected them at swap meets and auctions, then
> you have too much time and should use it to ride your bike.
>
No, I only change twice in the year, when the days get longer and then
again when the clocks go back. I still like a fixed to just hop on and
ride in the winter when I get the chance, but I'm old enough now not
to try doing long rides on it. Maybe when I'm really fat and old I'll
have saved enough for a Rohloff and I'll put that on and leave it
there.
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Date: 08 May 2007 07:44:21
From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 8:42 am, JennyB <jennybr...@googlemail.com > wrote:
> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
> suitable in the same price range?
Why? Do you have that much time and energy to change the parts
hanging on your bike? You really plan to redo the drivetrain from
derailleurs to gear hub to single speed and back again? Wow. Do you
have that much money to buy all of those spare parts to make these
changes? And if you collected them at swap meets and auctions, then
you have too much time and should use it to ride your bike.
If you just decide a year round all weather commuting bike is what you
want, and get rid of the horizontal dropout requirement, and are
willing to go with derailleurs, then any touring bike should work
fine. Or an audax bike. Bob Jackson or Mercian or Dave Yates are
some British builders.
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Date: 08 May 2007 07:29:51
From: Scott Gordo
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
On May 8, 9:42 am, JennyB <jennybr...@googlemail.com > wrote:
> I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
> It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
> rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
> Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
> dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
> fixed, or with derailleurs.
>
> I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
> with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
> suitable in the same price range?
http://www.surlybikes.com/crosscheck_comp.html
/s
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Date: 08 May 2007 18:41:05
From: Tosspot
Subject: Re: All-rounder frame wanted
|
Scott Gordo wrote:
> On May 8, 9:42 am, JennyB <jennybr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm looking for a new steel frame with old-fashioned touring geometry.
>>It will be for all-year use, sometimes heavily loaded and sometimes on
>>rough tracks, but generally neither, and not both at the same time.
>>Enough clearance for 700x35c and mudguards, and with horizontal
>>dropouts as well as a gear hanger so I can use it with a hub gear,
>>fixed, or with derailleurs.
>>
>>I was looking at the On One Pompino, but that's a dedicated fixie now
>>with 120mm rear spacing. Does anyone else in the UK make something
>>suitable in the same price range?
>
>
> http://www.surlybikes.com/crosscheck_comp.html
http://www.surlybikes.com/longhaul.html
Might be a better bet.
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