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Date: 09 May 2007 01:17:17
From: Dale
Subject: Balls up or balls down?
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While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers
were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls
down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper
bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with
3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for
the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in
the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone
placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
dale
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Date: 11 May 2007 06:15:16
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On May 10, 11:27 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> datak...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > 100's of mechanics put it together wromg every morning.
>
> We have girlfriends; we don't need to be told twice.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
SVO!
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Date: 11 May 2007 16:03:11
From: still me
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On 11 May 2007 06:15:16 -0700, "datakoll@yahoo.com"
<datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
>On May 10, 11:27 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> datak...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > 100's of mechanics put it together wromg every morning.
>>
>> We have girlfriends; we don't need to be told twice.
>> --
Could be worse. If you had a wife you'd be told in an exponential
fashion.
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Date: 10 May 2007 20:23:28
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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100's of mechanics put it together wromg every morning.
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Date: 10 May 2007 22:27:51
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> 100's of mechanics put it together wromg every morning.
We have girlfriends; we don't need to be told twice.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 11 May 2007 01:23:59
From: Dale
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Duh, yeh. There is no way you can put it together wrong...I tried it.
Thanks.
dale
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Date: 10 May 2007 20:53:17
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Dale wrote:
> Duh, yeh. There is no way you can put it together wrong...I tried it.
Great! Note that because each application has examples of inverse
design ( Tange and Campagnolo headset retainers for example) any
'assembly direction rule' will confuse a home mechanic. A simple
turn-dry-in-fingers test is clear and unambiguous!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 10 May 2007 15:28:54
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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you see no mechanical advantage to the asian cup/cone design over the
english?
rain on taiwan, rain on England are similar?
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Date: 11 May 2007 05:33:04
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On 2007-05-10, datakoll@yahoo.com <datakoll@yahoo.com > wrote:
> you see no mechanical advantage to the asian cup/cone design over the
> english?
> rain on taiwan, rain on England are similar?
No. Rain on England is relatively frequent but mostly quite light. In
Taiwan they have much heavier monsoon rain.
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Date: 11 May 2007 20:12:11
From:
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Ben C? writes:
>> you see no mechanical advantage to the asian cup/cone design over
>> the english? rain on taiwan, rain on England are similar?
> No. Rain on England is relatively frequent but mostly quite light.
> In Taiwan they have much heavier monsoon rain.
It isn't how hard it rains, but rather how fast water is thrown up by
the front tire while riding on a wet road onto the fork crown bearing,
or how fast the car is driven with a bicycle on an uncovered roof
rack. Even drizzly fog, as we have it on the San Francisco coast,
will enter bearings for those reasons.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 09 May 2007 20:28:24
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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i read why and forgot. its brandtian. the english did it one way then
the tiwainese decided that didn't make any sense so they reversed one
to hold the shaft firmerly.
i have done this wrong 3 times and it drives me nuts. expletive
deleted deleted
the solution maybe if you see it. seems to be easy to see it then fail
to see its logic 30 minutes later. that would be fingers into cup,
open side fingers toward cup wall, solid retainer ring surface facing
cone or is that wrong?
the balls need containment by cone, cup, and retainer. if you leave
one side open when assembled then the balls runout.
HOWEVER! the retainer maybe a factory assembly rig avoiding a constant
rain of loose balls and wasted down time.
Its easy to cool your grease and bearings in the fridge-cycle grease
is made for this-butterknife a ridge of grease on the cone or cup-then
place the bearings into the grease ridge without a retainer.
i feel a friction loss with retainers v free bearings about equal to
the friction loss experienced from a well adjusted freewheel to a well
adjusted freehub.
.
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Date: 09 May 2007 23:27:58
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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datakoll@yahoo.com wrote:
> i read why and forgot. its brandtian. the english did it one way then
> the tiwainese decided that didn't make any sense so they reversed one
> to hold the shaft firmerly.
> i have done this wrong 3 times and it drives me nuts. expletive
> deleted deleted
> the solution maybe if you see it. seems to be easy to see it then fail
> to see its logic 30 minutes later. that would be fingers into cup,
> open side fingers toward cup wall, solid retainer ring surface facing
> cone or is that wrong?
> the balls need containment by cone, cup, and retainer. if you leave
> one side open when assembled then the balls runout.
> HOWEVER! the retainer maybe a factory assembly rig avoiding a constant
> rain of loose balls and wasted down time.
> Its easy to cool your grease and bearings in the fridge-cycle grease
> is made for this-butterknife a ridge of grease on the cone or cup-then
> place the bearings into the grease ridge without a retainer.
> i feel a friction loss with retainers v free bearings about equal to
> the friction loss experienced from a well adjusted freewheel to a well
> adjusted freehub.
Retainers were initially developed to run bearing systems with fewer
balls. Modern full-count designs can have no downside in performance
while greatly assisting in faster assembly time.
The designs have many small variants and there is no general rule about
which way they 'face'. Assemble dry in your fingers, turn, flip
retainer, turn again. A backward retainer feels obviously and
dramatically wrong.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 10 May 2007 21:08:50
From:
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Andrew Muzi writes:
> Retainers were initially developed to run bearing systems with fewer
> balls. Modern full-count designs can have no downside in
> performance while greatly assisting in faster assembly time.
Using fewer balls was mainly in low cost applications. I think your
assessment of easier assembly is more to the point here. I'm thinking
specifically Square-taper BB's with 11-1/4" balls in a cage. The
balls are close packed and removing the cage does not change bearing
ball space. Head bearings are a little different, having too many
bearing balls anyway, they could have 21 but 20 is adequate and the
cage makes it definitely easier to assemble.
> The designs have many small variants and there is no general rule
> about which way they 'face'. Assemble dry in your fingers, turn,
> flip retainer, turn again. A backward retainer feels obviously and
> dramatically wrong.
The cage must be on the cup side. If you turn it over, the cone will
not make contact with the bearing balls but rather with the cage.
That is rough going for a bearing
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 09 May 2007 17:05:10
From: Phil, Non-Squid
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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"Dale" <msc626@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:xi90i.1122$LR5.1015@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers
> were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls
> down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper
> bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with
> with
> 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for
> the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in
> the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone
> placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
>
> Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
>
> dale
Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper half of
the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why is it that
threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the threadless headsets
I've seen are retainer down?
--
Phil
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Date: 10 May 2007 21:44:04
From:
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Phil Lee writes:
>> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the
>> retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers
>> were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower
>> bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no
>> instructions for headsets with with 3/16th inch retainers in top
>> and bottom races, although instructions for the newer threaded
>> headsets indicate retainers should face each other in the frame. I
>> assume it's the same for the older style, too, and someone placed
>> them in wrong.
> Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper
> half of the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why
> is it that threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the
> threadless headsets I've seen are retainer down?
Cups facing down, cones up, is convenient to make the bearings
reasonably waterproof in that the cups are recessed in aluminum cup
shaped housings facing down. That way hosing off the bicycle will not
fill the bearings with water and dirt.
With that cup orientation carrying the bicycle upside down on a car
roof rack or even right-side up with 70mph water blast on the
interface will fill the bearings with water. If the bicycle is tilted
down forward there is a chance of not filling the head bearings with
water but the other bearings will eat water just the same.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 11 May 2007 03:22:08
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On 2007-05-10, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote:
> Phil Lee writes:
>
>> Does anyone know the relative merits of having differing the upper
>> half of the headset, retainer orientation on top or on bottom? Why
>> is it that threaded headsets are often retainer-up, while all the
>> threadless headsets I've seen are retainer down?
>
> Cups facing down, cones up, is convenient to make the bearings
> reasonably waterproof in that the cups are recessed in aluminum cup
> shaped housings facing down. That way hosing off the bicycle will not
> fill the bearings with water and dirt.
One of my bikes has a threaded headset with the bottom cup facing down
and the top cup facing up. The top cone is on the inside of a shell that
extends down around the outside of the top cup. When fully assembled,
it looks like the cup-facing-down arrangement that you describe. It
worked quite well until I used it for winter commuting without fenders.
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Date: 09 May 2007 06:40:34
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On May 9, 7:18 am, Dale <msc...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:07 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. Headset has same size balls top and bottom.
> Are these 3/16 " or 5/32". Campy part HS-OR006. I can't google a size from
> the part number.
>
> Thanks
That one from 1993/4 and 3/16 balls, both 'balls down'. HS changed in
1995 to the one mentioned.
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Date: 09 May 2007 13:18:42
From: Dale
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On Wed, 09 May 2007 05:38:07 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Headset has same size balls top and bottom.
Are these 3/16 " or 5/32". Campy part HS-OR006. I can't google a size from
the part number.
Thanks
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Date: 09 May 2007 05:38:07
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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On May 8, 7:17 pm, Dale <msc...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers
> were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls
> down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper
> bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with with
> 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for
> the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in
> the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone
> placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
>
> Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
>
> dale
5/32 balls up on top, 3/16 balls down on the bottom.
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Date: 09 May 2007 05:01:22
From: Phil, Non-Squid
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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"Dale" <msc626@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:xi90i.1122$LR5.1015@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers
> were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls
> down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper
> bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with
> with
> 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for
> the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in
> the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone
> placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
>
> Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color genital comments.
>
> dale
Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should be.
AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The upper cone can
either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube, facing down or up,
respectively. Sorni, take it away!
--
Phil
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Date: 09 May 2007 20:03:21
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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> "Dale" <msc626@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the retainers
>> were installed such that both upper and lower retainers were placed balls
>> down. From my memory I thought it was lower bearings balls down, upper
>> bearings balls up. Campy website has no instructions for headsets with
>> with
>> 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions for
>> the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each other in
>> the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too, and someone
>> placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some loose balls, anyway.
Phil, Non-Squid wrote:
> Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should be.
> AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The upper cone can
> either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube, facing down or up,
> respectively. Sorni, take it away!
Phil's right about that.
We simplify by directing consumers to assemble cup and cone dry in their
fingers and note that each system only works with the retainer in one
orientation; if reversed, the clip (not the balls) drags on the race and
it's obviously, dramatically wrong. That will test other systems besides
Campagnolo headsets as retainers are variously designed with clip in or
clip out.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 09 May 2007 10:43:19
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Balls up or balls down?
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Phil, Non-Squid wrote:
> "Dale" <msc626@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:xi90i.1122$LR5.1015@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net...
>> While rebuilding a 1", mid 90s chorus headset, I noticed the
>> retainers were installed such that both upper and lower retainers
>> were placed balls down. From my memory I thought it was lower
>> bearings balls down, upper bearings balls up. Campy website has no
>> instructions for headsets with with
>> 3/16th inch retainers in top and bottom races, although instructions
>> for the newer threaded headsets indicate retainers should face each
>> other in the frame. I assume it's the same for the older syle, too,
>> and someone placed them in wrong. I'll probably just drop in some
>> loose balls, anyway. Yes, I am aware that I will get some off-color
>> genital comments.
>>
>> dale
>
> Where's the cup? The cup side is the side where the retainer should
> be. AFAIK, all lower cone races are on the fork, facing up. The
> upper cone can either be on the fork or pressed in the headtube,
> facing down or up, respectively. Sorni, take it away!
Nah, too easy. (But enough about your sister...or mother...or
girlfriend...)
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