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Main
Date: 13 Aug 2007 14:20:13
From: RonSonic
Subject: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
Wow.
Ron
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 04:30:08
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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Artoi wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Artoi wrote:
> > >
> > > That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business
> > > executives or do you blame on the average consumer?
>
> > The executives, of course. The ones who claim kingly benefits for
> > making business decisions bear responsibility for those decisions.
>
> Ummm... I don't quite see the "of course" bit.
Consumers only choose from among the things they are offered, or they
choose not to buy. If you don't offer them products made by child
slaves, they won't choose to buy products made by child slaves.
Moreover, it's not the consumer's _job_ to be fully informed about the
whole supply chain for every product he or she buys. It is reasonable
to assume things about a mass market consumer product, like: this is
not dangerously toxic or radioactive, it won't catch fire unexpectedly
when used as intended, the waste products from making it weren't
dumped straight into a drinking water reservoir, and it wasn't made by
child slaves.
The business executives who choose to profit from slavery have all
other options available to them. To them the "good" of making a
little more profit more than offsets the "bad" of involving their
business in child slavery. To me it's quite clear that the executives
are responsible. If they can honestly claim ignorance, then they
aren't doing the job they were overpaid to do.
Chalo
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:34:13
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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In article <1187325008.945819.282700@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> Consumers only choose from among the things they are offered...
Consumers are b****y demanding these days!
--
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 12:09:58
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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On Aug 16, 2:34 am, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> In article <1187241415.534461.13...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Chalo<chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Artoi wrote:
>
> > > Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
>
> > > > It's a nightmarish
> > > > marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
> > > > the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
> > > > continually deal with them.
>
> > > Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
> > > can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
>
> > But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
>
> That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
> do you blame on the average consumer?
The executives, of course. The ones who claim kingly benefits for
making business decisions bear responsibility for those decisions.
> Would the consumer prefer to buy
> expensive goods or less expensive goods?
Slaves and child laborers have been demonstrated to bring down the
costs of some kinds of production, but that's not considered OK.
Neither should be trading with folks who work by such methods. If we
can tolerate the economic consequences of not enslaving people or
freely polluting the environment in this country, then we can tolerate
the consequences of not buying from those who do the same in their own
countries.
Chalo
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 00:39:39
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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In article <1187266198.392599.320700@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Aug 16, 2:34 am, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
> > do you blame on the average consumer?
>
> The executives, of course. The ones who claim kingly benefits for
> making business decisions bear responsibility for those decisions.
Ummm... I don't quite see the "of course" bit.
--
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 10:34:32
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:09:58 -0000, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
>On Aug 16, 2:34 am, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <1187241415.534461.13...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> Chalo<chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Artoi wrote:
>>
>> > > Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
>>
>> > > > It's a nightmarish
>> > > > marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
>> > > > the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
>> > > > continually deal with them.
>>
>> > > Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
>> > > can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
>>
>> > But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
>>
>> That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
>> do you blame on the average consumer?
>
>The executives, of course. The ones who claim kingly benefits for
>making business decisions bear responsibility for those decisions.
>
>> Would the consumer prefer to buy
>> expensive goods or less expensive goods?
>
>Slaves and child laborers have been demonstrated to bring down the
>costs of some kinds of production, but that's not considered OK.
>Neither should be trading with folks who work by such methods. If we
>can tolerate the economic consequences of not enslaving people or
>freely polluting the environment in this country, then we can tolerate
>the consequences of not buying from those who do the same in their own
>countries.
Agreed. Delegating ones inhumanity to others does not absolve.
Ron
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:16:52
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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"RonSonic" wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:09:58 -0000, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 2:34 am, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <1187241415.534461.13...@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>
>>> Chalo<chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Artoi wrote:
>>>>> Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
>>>>>> It's a nightmarish
>>>>>> marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
>>>>>> the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
>>>>>> continually deal with them.
>>>>> Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
>>>>> can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
>>>> But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
>>> That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
>>> do you blame on the average consumer?
>> The executives, of course. The ones who claim kingly benefits for
>> making business decisions bear responsibility for those decisions.
>>
>>> Would the consumer prefer to buy
>>> expensive goods or less expensive goods?
>> Slaves and child laborers have been demonstrated to bring down the
>> costs of some kinds of production, but that's not considered OK.
>> Neither should be trading with folks who work by such methods. If we
>> can tolerate the economic consequences of not enslaving people or
>> freely polluting the environment in this country, then we can tolerate
>> the consequences of not buying from those who do the same in their own
>> countries.
>
> Agreed. Delegating ones inhumanity to others does not absolve.
Geeze. I have to agree with "RonSonic" TWICE in one week?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 05:16:55
From: Chalo
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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Artoi wrote:
>
> Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
> >
> > It's a nightmarish
> > marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
> > the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
> > continually deal with them.
>
> Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
> can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
Chalo
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:34:55
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <1187241415.534461.13930@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote:
> Artoi wrote:
> >
> > Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
> > >
> > > It's a nightmarish
> > > marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
> > > the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
> > > continually deal with them.
> >
> > Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
> > can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
>
> But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
do you blame on the average consumer? Would the consumer prefer to buy
expensive goods or less expensive goods?
--
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Date: 22 Aug 2007 11:20:04
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Artoi" <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:artoi-E3E5AE.17345216082007@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> In article <1187241415.534461.13930@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Artoi wrote:
> > >
> > > Bellsouth Ijit wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It's a nightmarish
> > > > marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday
surpass us as
> > > > the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice
but to
> > > > continually deal with them.
> > >
> > > Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth.
You
> > > can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
> >
> > But you don't have to do business with bad operators.
>
> That's a circular blame game. Do you blame on the business executives or
> do you blame on the average consumer? Would the consumer prefer to buy
> expensive goods or less expensive goods?
> --
That's a BULLSHIT argument! The management of many American businesses
used the excuse that they needed to go to China for cheaper products to
remain competitive. In reality the outsourcing to China has allowed them
to make much more money at the top of the economic food chain.
Chas.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:54:46
From:
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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On Aug 15, 5:39 pm, Mark <remove.mandmlj.t...@remove.comcast.this.net >
wrote:
> But I'm beginning to worry that in our society (US corporate and
> political) that /taking responsibility/ is becoming an empty phrase.
> What does it mean, _in practice_, in the US these days? Often looks to
> be: absolutely nothing beyond saying you're sorry on TV.
Uhh, I don't hear anybody saying sorry on TV. That would be a start.
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:49:55
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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r15757@aol.com wrote:
> On Aug 15, 5:39 pm, Mark <remove.mandmlj.t...@remove.comcast.this.net>
> wrote:
>
>> But I'm beginning to worry that in our society (US corporate and
>> political) that /taking responsibility/ is becoming an empty phrase.
>> What does it mean, _in practice_, in the US these days? Often looks
>> to be: absolutely nothing beyond saying you're sorry on TV.
>
>
> Uhh, I don't hear anybody saying sorry on TV. That would be a start.
The Mattel CEO sure did.
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:37:33
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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In article <0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
Judging by the spelling on the name of the executive, he is almost
guaranteed to be someone from Taiwan or Hong Kong.
Just checked another news report, indeed he is from HK. And it would
appear he got cheated by his paint supplier. So it would appear that the
buck hasn't quite stopped.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worldbiz/archives/2007/08/14/2003374217
--
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 17:19:13
From:
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 14, 10:35 am, Alex <a...@columbia.edu > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 7:30 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition =AE"
>
> <b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> > justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland Chi=
na.
> > At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
> > people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my breat=
h=2E
> > And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
>
> You also need to blame the US companies who buy their raw material
> from China and rely on the Chinese QC to catch a bad batch. Pretty
> dumb way to do business as Chinese QC has been lousy for a long time now.
It's not a question of QC. The Chinese have learned that they can
adulterate food or poison our children's toys and get away with it
because the US QC AKA CPSC & FDA is HS. I don't support the death
penalty, ever, but if the heads of the US agencies that were
responsible for preventing these things faced any consequences AT
F**KING ALL for the fact that they have been systematically
dismantling government regulatory oversight, maybe our children would
not have been poisoned and my dog wouldn't have died. Yes, I put my
dog down after a mysterious illness ravaged him, the beginning of
which dates to when we started feeding him that GD dog food.
And what about the coal mines? The Chinese did it because they are
corrupt and we are corrupt, but we don't need the Chinese; we are
quite capable of exhibiting our corruption on our own. Those miners
died (unless some extraordinary miracle happens) because our
government buried warnings about the danger of the roof collapsing in
that mine.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11
From: Marian
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 14, 11:35 pm, Alex <a...@columbia.edu > wrote:
> On Aug 13, 7:30 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition =AE"
>
> <b...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> > justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland Chi=
na.
> > At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
> > people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my breat=
h=2E
> > And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
>
> You also need to blame the US companies who buy their raw material
> from China and rely on the Chinese QC to catch a bad batch. Pretty
> dumb way to do business as Chinese QC has been lousy for a long time
> now.
To bring it back to bikes, it's like the whole doping thing. It isn't
the size of the penalties that keeps people from doing something, it's
the likelihood of being caught. When the supply side dealer knows
that he or she must present quality goods or never get the contract
again quality goods are provided. But in a country with this kind of
rate of development too many people see only that they can get rich
quick and they do it because they can get away with it.
I have, on occasion, helped finance myself by doing small scale import/
export (mostly of jewelry) and despite the fact that I've never made a
single purchase over a few hundred dollars at a time none of my
suppliers has ever given me anything less than the quality I
specifically asked for.
You got a container load of goods you pick one box at random (and you
make sure you do the picking), and you open that one box and you check
one item. Doesn't take much. The western buyers that don't do that
are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing to
do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if the
product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
change.
-M
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:37:18
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
<marian.rosenberg@gmail.com > wrote:
< >
>The western buyers that don't do that
>are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
>because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing to
>do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if the
>product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
>money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
>change.
I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:25:40
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <juv6c3dkbrqmg1di1apu2dub24fjjnea9n@4ax.com >,
still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
> <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The western buyers that don't do that
> >are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
> >because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing to
> >do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if the
> >product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
> >money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
> >change.
> I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
> it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
> have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
There's probably been more kids who has smashed their faces in from
riding kiddy bikes during the same period. And are there still people
who are against compulsory helmets for cyclists? All in the realm of
public safety.
--
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:42:22
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Artoi??? wrote:
> ...
> There's probably been more kids who has smashed their faces in from
> riding kiddy bikes during the same period. And are there still people
> who are against compulsory helmets for cyclists? All in the realm of
> public safety.
Where is the convincing evidence that bicycle helmets have any
significant effectiveness beyond "bump and scratch" protection?
Mandatory helmet laws reduce the number of cyclists on the public
roadways, which has been shown to DECREASE cyclist safety.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:44:14
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <46c3bb87$0$15142$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Artoi??? wrote:
> > ...
> > There's probably been more kids who has smashed their faces in from
> > riding kiddy bikes during the same period. And are there still people
> > who are against compulsory helmets for cyclists? All in the realm of
> > public safety.
> Where is the convincing evidence that bicycle helmets have any
> significant effectiveness beyond "bump and scratch" protection?
>
> Mandatory helmet laws reduce the number of cyclists on the public
> roadways, which has been shown to DECREASE cyclist safety.
Hehe... You just have to come out of the closet.
In parallel you should ask... Where's the population data evidence that
a few loose magnets in toys would significantly increase the bowel
obstruction rate in children in our community?
We do it because it's logical with case study evidence. And population
study of something like bicycle helmets will always have problems in
obtaining a control, and under-reporting of minor injuries.
--
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:34:09
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:44:14 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>And population
>study of something like bicycle helmets will always have problems in
>obtaining a control, and under-reporting of minor injuries.
Most helmet skeptics accept that helmets and prevent cuts and bruises,
so even with the lack of good reporting this is a non-issue.
If the helmet zealots were willing to say the key benefit of helmets
is wearing helmets is reducing minor injuries, rather than (generally)
claiming they prevent deaths and brain damage, there wouldnt' be much
argument at all.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 00:43:23
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <fed8c3pvo8hnf0q399upung6pg5nk9svbc@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:44:14 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >And population
> >study of something like bicycle helmets will always have problems in
> >obtaining a control, and under-reporting of minor injuries.
>
> Most helmet skeptics accept that helmets and prevent cuts and bruises,
> so even with the lack of good reporting this is a non-issue.
>
> If the helmet zealots were willing to say the key benefit of helmets
> is wearing helmets is reducing minor injuries, rather than (generally)
> claiming they prevent deaths and brain damage, there wouldnt' be much
> argument at all.
It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
--
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| | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:23:37
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
still clueless yet again wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
> <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <>
>> The western buyers that don't do that
>> are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
>> because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing
>> to do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if
>> the product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
>> money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
>> change.
> I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
> it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
> have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
He also took responsibility AND ACTION. Two things you apparently don't
understand. (Clue: most of the recalled products never reached shelves due
to the company being accountable and quick-acting. If these products or
materials had gone to no-name, "generic" toy makers or other manufacturers,
then many more than a "few kids" would have been hurt. Just because it's a
big business doesn't mean it's a bad business, despite what you read on your
daily kook blogs.
HTH.
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 12:45:32
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:23:37 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>He also took responsibility AND ACTION. Two things you apparently don't
>understand. (Clue: most of the recalled products never reached shelves due
>to the company being accountable and quick-acting. If these products or
>materials had gone to no-name, "generic" toy makers or other manufacturers,
>then many more than a "few kids" would have been hurt.
They RECALLED the products from toy store shelves. That means they had
passed through Mattel long before with no testing done. Note the use
of the word "recall", not the phrase "stopped shipment". Note the
circumstances of the TWO recent recalls.
But let's skip that discussion for now. Let's talk about the previous
recall. Let's back up to the design level. They designed a slew of
toys with tiny little magnets in them, poorly fastened, that were able
to get inside kids in multiples and cause organ damage. Kids needed
serious surgery.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07039.html
How many years has it been since "small parts that come loose that
little kids eat" has been an issue? 20? 30? Yet Mattel produced such
toys this year. There are people designing these toys, they are
(hopefully) thinking about toy safety with every toy they design,
there should be people reviewing the designs in marketing, management
should have a safety review department. Yet, this glaringly obvious
problem made it into production and the magnets into kids.
Seems like safety must not be at the top of the engineering, review,
marketing, or QC checklists - and obviously not on management's radar
or one of those groups would have raised a red flag long before these
toys got through design, let alone pilot.
I don't recall an apology after the first recall - and this one is
just a CEO protecting the bottom line.
>Just because it's a
>big business doesn't mean it's a bad business, despite what you read on your
>daily kook blogs.
Sorry, you missed the mark once again. I'm not a hopeless ideologue
like you, brainwashed so deeply that my partisan mantra chanting
occupies my head all day long to the point of dysfunction, to the
point that I can't even look objectively at an issue and consider the
facts.
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| | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:27:48
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <46c38af4$0$24151$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> still clueless yet again wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
> > <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The western buyers that don't do that
> >> are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
> >> because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing
> >> to do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if
> >> the product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
> >> money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
> >> change.
>
> > I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
> > it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
> > have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
>
> He also took responsibility AND ACTION. Two things you apparently don't
> understand. (Clue: most of the recalled products never reached shelves due
> to the company being accountable and quick-acting. If these products or
> materials had gone to no-name, "generic" toy makers or other manufacturers,
> then many more than a "few kids" would have been hurt. Just because it's a
> big business doesn't mean it's a bad business, despite what you read on your
> daily kook blogs.
What I like to know is, who design and monitor these toys? Do companies
like Mattel go out and buy toys or do they design toys and farm out for
manufacturing? How do they monitor the manufacturing and quality issues?
What is the relationship b/n the two parties?
--
|
| | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 00:49:53
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:27:48 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <46c38af4$0$24151$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> still clueless yet again wrote:
>> > On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
>> > <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> The western buyers that don't do that
>> >> are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
>> >> because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing
>> >> to do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if
>> >> the product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
>> >> money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
>> >> change.
>>
>> > I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
>> > it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
>> > have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
>>
>> He also took responsibility AND ACTION. Two things you apparently don't
>> understand. (Clue: most of the recalled products never reached shelves due
>> to the company being accountable and quick-acting. If these products or
>> materials had gone to no-name, "generic" toy makers or other manufacturers,
>> then many more than a "few kids" would have been hurt. Just because it's a
>> big business doesn't mean it's a bad business, despite what you read on your
>> daily kook blogs.
>
>What I like to know is, who design and monitor these toys? Do companies
>like Mattel go out and buy toys or do they design toys and farm out for
>manufacturing? How do they monitor the manufacturing and quality issues?
>What is the relationship b/n the two parties?
Google is your friend. There's been a lot of coverage on the subject. Mattel
owns plants all over, including China. They also have products produced to their
designs and specifications. And yes they do check the stuf themselves, thats how
they knew there was a problem.
Ron
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:36:08
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <3nl7c39n6f1b224utjm17cc2o191i1iqoc@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Google is your friend. There's been a lot of coverage on the subject. Mattel
> owns plants all over, including China. They also have products produced to
> their
> designs and specifications. And yes they do check the stuf themselves, thats
> how
> they knew there was a problem.
So Mattel is responsible to a major part, right?
--
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 09:57:26
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 07:36:08 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <3nl7c39n6f1b224utjm17cc2o191i1iqoc@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Google is your friend. There's been a lot of coverage on the subject. Mattel
>> owns plants all over, including China. They also have products produced to
>> their
>> designs and specifications. And yes they do check the stuf themselves, thats
>> how
>> they knew there was a problem.
>
>So Mattel is responsible to a major part, right?
Responsible for what, exactly? That guy hosing himself? Stopping defective toys?
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:31:08
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:57:26 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>>So Mattel is responsible to a major part, right?
>
>Responsible for what, exactly? That guy hosing himself? Stopping defective toys?
>Ron
Not designing defective toys with safety hazards we've known about for
30 years and for conducting adequate reviews on parts/toys from sub
manufacturers to insure that the toys are safe.
Yes, it will cost them a couple $'s to do that. Not a fortune, just a
few $'s off the bottom line. We're talking about kids lives and brains
here.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:22:04
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:31:08 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:57:26 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>So Mattel is responsible to a major part, right?
>>
>>Responsible for what, exactly? That guy hosing himself? Stopping defective toys?
>>Ron
>
>Not designing defective toys with safety hazards we've known about for
>30 years and for conducting adequate reviews on parts/toys from sub
>manufacturers to insure that the toys are safe.
>
>Yes, it will cost them a couple $'s to do that. Not a fortune, just a
>few $'s off the bottom line. We're talking about kids lives and brains
>here.
Whatever are you babbling about? The kind of magnets that were a problem didn't
exist outside of a very few, very exotic applications thirty years ago. And
swallowing _a_ magnet isn't a problem. As soon as they were aware of a problem
they corrected it immediately. As they should have done.
Are you demanding that they be psychic and fix problems that didn't exist
before?
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 22 Aug 2007 12:04:13
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:bqm9c3lk8sq45125jfes31ld0i9h2ei4q3@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:31:08 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 09:57:26 -0400, RonSonic
> ><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>So Mattel is responsible to a major part, right?
> >>
> >>Responsible for what, exactly? That guy hosing himself? Stopping
defective toys?
> >>Ron
> >
> >Not designing defective toys with safety hazards we've known about for
> >30 years and for conducting adequate reviews on parts/toys from sub
> >manufacturers to insure that the toys are safe.
> >
> >Yes, it will cost them a couple $'s to do that. Not a fortune, just a
> >few $'s off the bottom line. We're talking about kids lives and brains
> >here.
>
> Whatever are you babbling about? The kind of magnets that were a problem
didn't
> exist outside of a very few, very exotic applications thirty years ago.
And
> swallowing _a_ magnet isn't a problem. As soon as they were aware of a
problem
> they corrected it immediately. As they should have done.
>
> Are you demanding that they be psychic and fix problems that didn't
exist
> before?
>
> Ron
He's talking about paint that contained lead pigments that was used on the
toys that Mattel recalled. These toys were not only stopped at the source,
they had already been distributed throughout the supply chain and sold to
consumers.
They were pulled from the shelves at a lot of large chain stores. What
about the ones that are still on the shelves of smaller stores and
non-traditional toy vendors like variety/grocery stores?
Little kids especially under 6 years old put things in their mouths and
chew on them. A lot of the paint used on flexible plastic products easily
peels off when the items are flexed.
Lead based pigments were banned from most consumer products in the US in
1978.
"Lead paint is paint containing lead, a heavy metal, that is used as
pigment, with lead chromate (PbCrO4, "chrome yellow") and lead
carbonate(PbCO3, "white lead") being the most common. Lead is also added
to paint to speed drying....."
"Although lead improves paint performance, it is extremely toxic to living
organisms..... It is especially dangerous to children under age six whose
bodies are still developing. Lead causes nervous system damage, hearing
loss, stunted growth, reduced IQ, and delayed development. It can cause
kidney damage and affects every organ system of the body. It also is
dangerous to adults, and can cause reproductive problems in adult
men....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
Besides lead, cadmium and other toxic materials are used for paint
pigments. There is no telling without chemical analysis what else is found
in toys imported from China and other places like that.
Another thing is that Mattel is just one of hundreds of companies
importing toys from China to the US.
What's going to happen to the toys that have been pulled from shelves?
will they be sold to some other unsuspecting country?
Chas.
|
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 03:29:59
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:22:04 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>
>Whatever are you babbling about? The kind of magnets that were a problem didn't
>exist outside of a very few, very exotic applications thirty years ago. And
>swallowing _a_ magnet isn't a problem.
I'm talking about small parts that come loose from toys. Forget about
the specific issue of magnets - children swallowing small parts has
been a safety issue for decades.
And swallowing _a_ magnet *is* a problem. Foreign objects are not
supposed to be inside children's bodies. They cause injury and death.
Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
swallow foreign objects?
>As soon as they were aware of a problem
>they corrected it immediately. As they should have done.
>Are you demanding that they be psychic and fix problems that didn't exist
>before?
This is a very old issue. They failed in the safety area. This never
should have made it through design.
|
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:34:19
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 03:29:59 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com >
wrote:
> They cause injury and death.
>Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
>swallow foreign objects?
Depends on the object. A little sand is not probably not bad.
Anything inert and small enough to not block air passages and go out
the stool isn't that big a deal.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 09:40:20
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:34:19 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 03:29:59 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>> They cause injury and death.
>>Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
>>swallow foreign objects?
>
>Depends on the object. A little sand is not probably not bad.
>Anything inert and small enough to not block air passages and go out
>the stool isn't that big a deal.
Thank you. Most of humanity wouldn't have survived childhood if this ninnie were
right. The problem was with two magnets being swallowed and attracting each
other from different loops of intestine. Ouch.
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 06:49:26
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:40:20 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>>> They cause injury and death.
>>>Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
>>>swallow foreign objects?
>>
>>Depends on the object. A little sand is not probably not bad.
>>Anything inert and small enough to not block air passages and go out
>>the stool isn't that big a deal.
>
>Thank you. Most of humanity wouldn't have survived childhood if this ninnie were
>right. The problem was with two magnets being swallowed and attracting each
>other from different loops of intestine. Ouch.
>
>Ron
Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many years.
Trying to excuse that kind of engineering with points like "oh, but
they had to swallow two magnets" or "yeah but they fixed the problem
right after a few kids needed major surgery" really makes you both
look like idiots.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 22 Aug 2007 12:19:22
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"still me" <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:t95dc3tb3ukosbldhuo9m6qbf3gtca69k7@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:40:20 -0400, RonSonic
> <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>> They cause injury and death.
> >>>Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
> >>>swallow foreign objects?
> >>
> >>Depends on the object. A little sand is not probably not bad.
> >>Anything inert and small enough to not block air passages and go out
> >>the stool isn't that big a deal.
> >
> >Thank you. Most of humanity wouldn't have survived childhood if this
ninnie were
> >right. The problem was with two magnets being swallowed and attracting
each
> >other from different loops of intestine. Ouch.
> >
> >Ron
>
> Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
> sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
> are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many years.
>
> Trying to excuse that kind of engineering with points like "oh, but
> they had to swallow two magnets" or "yeah but they fixed the problem
> right after a few kids needed major surgery" really makes you both
> look like idiots.
>
You have to explain the problem to these dense experts:
Small object can get into a child's breathing passages and lungs which
could result in suffocation - DOH!
Chas.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 04:48:34
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 06:49:26 GMT, still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:40:20 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>>> They cause injury and death.
>>>>Are you really that daft to suggest it's OK for kids, or anyone, to
>>>>swallow foreign objects?
>>>
>>>Depends on the object. A little sand is not probably not bad.
>>>Anything inert and small enough to not block air passages and go out
>>>the stool isn't that big a deal.
>>
>>Thank you. Most of humanity wouldn't have survived childhood if this ninnie were
>>right. The problem was with two magnets being swallowed and attracting each
>>other from different loops of intestine. Ouch.
>>
>>Ron
>
>Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
>sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
>are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many years.
Oh, when you wrote "or anyone" I thought you were also talking about
adults.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 14:22:30
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:48:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>>Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
>>sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
>>are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many years.
>
>Oh, when you wrote "or anyone" I thought you were also talking about
>adults.
Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
parts and to get help when they do.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 08:35:52
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
still me wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:48:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>>> Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
>>> sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
>>> are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many
>>> years.
>>
>> Oh, when you wrote "or anyone" I thought you were also talking about
>> adults.
>
> Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
> parts and to get help when they do.
You two will swallow anything.
Bill "but enough about blogs..." S.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 05:11:02
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 08:35:52 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>> Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
>> parts and to get help when they do.
>
>You two will swallow anything.
>
>Bill "but enough about blogs..." S.
You really are brainwashed.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 00:35:05
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
still totally clueless wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 08:35:52 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
> wrote:
{Hey, who wrote what's next?!?}
>>> Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
>>> parts and to get help when they do.
>> You two will swallow anything.
>>
>> Bill "but enough about blogs..." S.
> You really are brainwashed.
Psst. I read ZERO blogs. Never have; no intention to start. You
(still-born brain) and Johnny, OTOH...
|
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 06:54:11
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 00:35:05 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me >
wrote:
>still totally clueless wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 08:35:52 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me>
>> wrote:
>{Hey, who wrote what's next?!?}
>
>>>> Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
>>>> parts and to get help when they do.
>
>>> You two will swallow anything.
>>>
>>> Bill "but enough about blogs..." S.
>
>> You really are brainwashed.
>
>Psst. I read ZERO blogs. Never have; no intention to start. You
>(still-born brain) and Johnny, OTOH... >
Do you read at all, besides online fora in which you can rant? Do you
read any major national or international newspaper, for example? Ones
that do actual reporting?
OR do you just get your "news" from radio opinion shows and related
websites?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 15:59:00
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:54:11 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>Do you read at all, besides online fora in which you can rant? Do you
>read any major national or international newspaper, for example? Ones
>that do actual reporting?
>
>OR do you just get your "news" from radio opinion shows and related
>websites?
He's quite the interesting character. Convinced that anyone who
doesn't agree with him is his stereotypical opposition; mentally
required by his own brain of dismissing evidence that doesn't agree
with his preconceived notions; totally incapable of thinking for
himself; and thoroughly convinced that he's right and all others are
misinformed and wrong.
He's a nearly perfect example a successful brainwashing technique:
Immerse the subject in endless rhetoric stating untruths we want them
to believe and repeat it over and over again; set up the opposition
and give him reasons to hate them for oppressing him and preventing
his desired lifestyle; and convince him that he and those of his ilk
can never be wrong.
Frightening, every time I see it, that it's so easily done - no matter
who the subject - or who is doing the washing and for what purpose.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 12:20:27
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
still clueless wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 06:54:11 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
> <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote (to someone he knows doesn't see his
> blather unless someone else replies):
>> Do you read at all, besides online fora in which you can rant? Do
>> you read any major national or international newspaper, for example?
>> Ones that do actual reporting?
>>
>> OR do you just get your "news" from radio opinion shows and related
>> websites?
> He's quite the interesting character. Convinced that anyone who
> doesn't agree with him is his stereotypical opposition; mentally
> required by his own brain of dismissing evidence that doesn't agree
> with his preconceived notions; totally incapable of thinking for
> himself; and thoroughly convinced that he's right and all others are
> misinformed and wrong.
>
> He's a nearly perfect example a successful brainwashing technique:
> Immerse the subject in endless rhetoric stating untruths we want them
> to believe and repeat it over and over again; set up the opposition
> and give him reasons to hate them for oppressing him and preventing
> his desired lifestyle; and convince him that he and those of his ilk
> can never be wrong.
>
> Frightening, every time I see it, that it's so easily done - no matter
> who the subject - or who is doing the washing and for what purpose.
At least I don't continue to address questions to someone who plonked me
many months ago and has reminded me numerous times since.
BTW, who are you still me? At least I say what I think and don't hide
behind an anonymous puffname.
Go read your blogs... (Talk about brainwashed. LOL )
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 13:07:50
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> still me wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:48:34 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
>> <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Obviously I wasn't suggesting that a child can't swallow a piece of
>>>> sand. We're talking about toys with small parts that come loose and
>>>> are a danger to kids. That's been a known no-no for many, many
>>>> years.
>>> Oh, when you wrote "or anyone" I thought you were also talking about
>>> adults.
>> Fair enough. Hopefully adults are smart enough not to swallow small
>> parts and to get help when they do.
>
> You two will swallow anything.
Family newsgroup, buddy.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 22:41:48
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"still me" wrote:
> ...
> And swallowing _a_ magnet *is* a problem....
Don't have a cow, man!
<http://www.magnetsource.com/Solutions_Pages/cowmags.html >
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 00:36:33
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <bqm9c3lk8sq45125jfes31ld0i9h2ei4q3@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Whatever are you babbling about? The kind of magnets that were a problem
> didn't
> exist outside of a very few, very exotic applications thirty years ago. And
> swallowing _a_ magnet isn't a problem. As soon as they were aware of a
> problem
> they corrected it immediately. As they should have done.
>
> Are you demanding that they be psychic and fix problems that didn't exist
> before?
Huh? What's to do with new magnet materials? It's the designer and
manufacturer's responsibility to get the spec right and adhered to. If
Mattel designed it, then where's the follow through?
--
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 09:37:38
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:36:33 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <bqm9c3lk8sq45125jfes31ld0i9h2ei4q3@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Whatever are you babbling about? The kind of magnets that were a problem
>> didn't
>> exist outside of a very few, very exotic applications thirty years ago. And
>> swallowing _a_ magnet isn't a problem. As soon as they were aware of a
>> problem
>> they corrected it immediately. As they should have done.
>>
>> Are you demanding that they be psychic and fix problems that didn't exist
>> before?
>
>Huh? What's to do with new magnet materials? It's the designer and
>manufacturer's responsibility to get the spec right and adhered to. If
>Mattel designed it, then where's the follow through?
The follow through is that the moment they realized they'd screwed up ( the
magnet thing was a design problem) they paid out buttloads of money to everyone
who was hurt and truckloads of money removing and replacing the rest.
What sort of "follow through" do you have in mind? More suicides?
Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:21:10
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <su8bc35v9da5srp6gqum3fkto1ajvvq0h9@4ax.com >,
RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:36:33 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Huh? What's to do with new magnet materials? It's the designer and
> >manufacturer's responsibility to get the spec right and adhered to. If
> >Mattel designed it, then where's the follow through?
>
> The follow through is that the moment they realized they'd screwed up ( the
> magnet thing was a design problem) they paid out buttloads of money to
> everyone
> who was hurt and truckloads of money removing and replacing the rest.
>
> What sort of "follow through" do you have in mind? More suicides?
The follow through I was thinking about was the design and the
subsequent manufacturing and QC execution follow through.
--
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 07:08:56
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:21:10 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <su8bc35v9da5srp6gqum3fkto1ajvvq0h9@4ax.com>,
> RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:36:33 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Huh? What's to do with new magnet materials? It's the designer and
>> >manufacturer's responsibility to get the spec right and adhered to. If
>> >Mattel designed it, then where's the follow through?
>>
>> The follow through is that the moment they realized they'd screwed up ( the
>> magnet thing was a design problem) they paid out buttloads of money to
>> everyone
>> who was hurt and truckloads of money removing and replacing the rest.
>>
>> What sort of "follow through" do you have in mind? More suicides?
>
>The follow through I was thinking about was the design and the
>subsequent manufacturing and QC execution follow through.
Sorry, Artoi, the point is apparently lost on them that the problem of
"small parts that come loose on toys" was a major safety issue
discovered and dealt with by most manufacturers years ago. This should
have been noticed at Mattel in six different departments before these
toys got near the market. One has to assume that either multiple
employees at Mattel noticed and that management made a conscious
decision to bring these toys to market anyway; or that no one noticed
in any department. Either way, it shows significant negligence and
callous disregard for kid's safety on Mattel's part.
Apparently the talk they espouse about taking responsibility for one's
actions is just talk. Note that responsibility when safety is involved
means making sure unsafe toys like this don't get to market - not
settling lawsuits when kids almost die; doing recalls of zillions of
toys already in the market; and apologizing to cover your ass when you
think it's needed to save your beaten reputation and protect your
bottom line.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 07:25:09
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <jk5dc35e5sugd7rnnlh9d0lc6n34f813cm@4ax.com >,
still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:21:10 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <su8bc35v9da5srp6gqum3fkto1ajvvq0h9@4ax.com>,
> > RonSonic <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:36:33 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >Huh? What's to do with new magnet materials? It's the designer and
> >> >manufacturer's responsibility to get the spec right and adhered to. If
> >> >Mattel designed it, then where's the follow through?
> >>
> >> The follow through is that the moment they realized they'd screwed up ( the
> >> magnet thing was a design problem) they paid out buttloads of money to
> >> everyone
> >> who was hurt and truckloads of money removing and replacing the rest.
> >>
> >> What sort of "follow through" do you have in mind? More suicides?
> >
> >The follow through I was thinking about was the design and the
> >subsequent manufacturing and QC execution follow through.
>
> Sorry, Artoi, the point is apparently lost on them that the problem of
> "small parts that come loose on toys" was a major safety issue
> discovered and dealt with by most manufacturers years ago. This should
> have been noticed at Mattel in six different departments before these
> toys got near the market. One has to assume that either multiple
> employees at Mattel noticed and that management made a conscious
> decision to bring these toys to market anyway; or that no one noticed
> in any department. Either way, it shows significant negligence and
> callous disregard for kid's safety on Mattel's part.
>
> Apparently the talk they espouse about taking responsibility for one's
> actions is just talk. Note that responsibility when safety is involved
> means making sure unsafe toys like this don't get to market - not
> settling lawsuits when kids almost die; doing recalls of zillions of
> toys already in the market; and apologizing to cover your ass when you
> think it's needed to save your beaten reputation and protect your
> bottom line.
I think out of this present debacle, it's only the lead paint issue is
one that the factory should be largely responsible for. The magnet issue
really was a Mattel issue that started from their design stage. And
AFAIK, the magnets that's really of concern are those high tesla rare
earth magnets. Surely that's a spec issue required by Mattel's design.
The only thing that may be able to loosen the responsibility grip on
Mattel is if the design was largely from the manufacturer.
--
|
| | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:39:31
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> still clueless yet again wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
>> <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <>
>>> The western buyers that don't do that
>>> are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make substitutions
>>> because they know that the changes are being made. They're failing
>>> to do quality control spot checks cause they don't want to know if
>>> the product is shoddy until it fails. If it doesn't fail they save
>>> money. If it does fail they just blame the person who made the
>>> change.
>
>> I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
>> it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or will
>> have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
>
> He also took responsibility AND ACTION.
I'll grant you the ACTION part, though I don't know the details and
reserve the right to re-evaluate.
But I'm beginning to worry that in our society (US corporate and
political) that /taking responsibility/ is becoming an empty phrase.
What does it mean, _in practice_, in the US these days? Often looks to
be: absolutely nothing beyond saying you're sorry on TV.
Cynically,
Mark J.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:54:01
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Mark wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> still clueless yet again wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 05:16:11 -0000, Marian
>>> <marian.rosenberg@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <>
>>>> The western buyers that don't do that
>>>> are as bad (or worse) as the Chinese sellers that make
>>>> substitutions because they know that the changes are being made.
>>>> They're failing to do quality control spot checks cause they don't
>>>> want to know if the product is shoddy until it fails. If it
>>>> doesn't fail they save money. If it does fail they just blame the
>>>> person who made the change.
>>
>>> I don't see what the problem is here. The Mattel CEO apologized, so
>>> it's all settled. So what is a few kids got perforated innards or
>>> will have brain damage from lead poisoning. He said he was sorry.
>>
>> He also took responsibility AND ACTION.
>
> I'll grant you the ACTION part, though I don't know the details and
> reserve the right to re-evaluate.
>
> But I'm beginning to worry that in our society (US corporate and
> political) that /taking responsibility/ is becoming an empty phrase.
> What does it mean, _in practice_, in the US these days? Often looks
> to be: absolutely nothing beyond saying you're sorry on TV.
>
> Cynically,
>
> Mark J.
I'm cynical as well, but I appreciate someone standing up and saying I (we)
screwed up and I'm sorry. I'll make it right. (Or I'll accept the
consequences. Whatever.) What I think you and I both are tired of is
people making excuses, blaming others, etc. Basic "weasel" behavior. OR
GOING INTO "REHAB" immediately, like that actor who called a castmate a fag
and then went into treatment to escape the heat. Pathetic.
Then there was my ex-wife... (She used to do the most wretched things, and
then just say "well that's the way I am" as explanation. Now THAT was
frustrating! LOL )
Bill "almost over it, can't you tell" S.
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 14:14:45
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
> Wow.
>
> Ron
It's a starts.....
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:35:27
From: Alex
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 13, 7:30 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition =AE"
<b...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland China.
> At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
> people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my breath.
> And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
You also need to blame the US companies who buy their raw material
from China and rely on the Chinese QC to catch a bad batch. Pretty
dumb
way to do business as Chinese QC has been lousy for a long time now.
-----------------------
Alex
|
| | |
Date: 14 Aug 2007 13:38:57
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Alex" <adr5@columbia.edu > wrote in message
news:1187105727.371933.58160@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 13, 7:30 pm, "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®"
<b...@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland China.
> At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
> people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my breath.
> And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
>You also need to blame the US companies who buy their raw material
>from China and rely on the Chinese QC to catch a bad batch. Pretty
>dumb
>way to do business as Chinese QC has been lousy for a long time now.
-----------------------
>Alex
True, and I do blame US companies. All this is the result of greed and
bottom-line corporate thinking, coupled with a government and culture for
which human and animal rights is an after-thought. It's a nightmarish
marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
continually deal with them.
|
| | | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:29:14
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <13c3qcbqsctpa4e@corp.supernews.com >,
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
> True, and I do blame US companies. All this is the result of greed and
> bottom-line corporate thinking, coupled with a government and culture for
> which human and animal rights is an after-thought. It's a nightmarish
> marriage, and it won't get much better as China will someday surpass us as
> the biggest economy in the world, and US will not have much choice but to
> continually deal with them.
Guess what? US and China are all on the same planet called Earth. You
can't avoid dealing with every country on this planet.
--
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 18:31:53
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 13, 5:22 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:32:56 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 13, 1:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> >>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
> >> Wow.
>
> >> Ron
>
> >Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
> >would have been.
>
> Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much.
I think some people would rather die than be incarcerated.....
> Probably
> the same general path for the Chinese guy.
|
| | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 03:46:14
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 18:31:53 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>> Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much.
>
>I think some people would rather die than be incarcerated.....
And in some cases, other people would rather they die than ever make
it to trial.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 18:30:04
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 13, 5:39 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >>> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
> >>>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >>> Wow.
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
> >> would have been.
> still me wrote:
> > Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much. Probably
> > the same general path for the Chinese guy.
>
> The conspiracy types claim otherwise: Patsy's body gets Lay's death
> certificate, doctor signs off for some $$ and Kenny moves to Brunei or
> Vesco's yacht or some such.
> --
Where he parties with Elvis and Hoffa.......
|
| | |
Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:47:49
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1187055004.461277.284290@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 13, 5:39 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > >> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > >>> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
Suicide
> > >>>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> > >>> Wow.
> > > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >> Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron
crooks
> > >> would have been.
> > still me wrote:
> > > Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much.
Probably
> > > the same general path for the Chinese guy.
> >
> > The conspiracy types claim otherwise: Patsy's body gets Lay's death
> > certificate, doctor signs off for some $$ and Kenny moves to Brunei or
> > Vesco's yacht or some such.
> > --
>
> Where he parties with Elvis and Hoffa.......
>
Where's the body? Show me the body....
Chas.
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:43:29
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:20:13 -0400, RonSonic
<ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
>Wow.
I thought that according to you he'd be made a hero for screwing the
foreigners and doing that Chinese/communist style????
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:22:44
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:43:29 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:20:13 -0400, RonSonic
><ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>>
>>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>>
>>Wow.
>
>I thought that according to you he'd be made a hero for screwing the
>foreigners and doing that Chinese/communist style????
Being the one who killed himself, I'm thinking he was getting the hose as much
as mattel. And apparently from a long term friend.
Obviously an evolving situation.
Ron
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:25:29
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
ENDRONG!
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:48:40
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:25:29 -0000, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>
>ENDRONG!
Gene, you rule.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 17:49:18
From: Tim McTeague
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
> Wow.
>
> Ron
While a suicide is never a cause for joy some part of me is pleased that
shame is still a powerful thing to some people. There have been so many
cases of heinous misdeeds by corporate creeps lately and no one seems to
feel they owe anyone an apology. However, it may be stories of that guy's
business being on the brink of bankruptcy that was the primary push towards
the brink.
Tim McTeague
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:43:11
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Tim McTeague wrote:
>>
>> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>>
> While a suicide is never a cause for joy some part of me is pleased
that
> shame is still a powerful thing to some people. There have been so many
> cases of heinous misdeeds by corporate creeps lately and no one seems to
> feel they owe anyone an apology.
Well, in the US lately we often get the "I did a bad thing and take full
responsibility for my actions" line - but without any consequences
whatsoever. I think some reporter called it the non-apology apology.
Whenever I hear one of them, I think of stories like the one above,
which we hear from the east from time to time. Different worlds.
Mark J.
> However, it may be stories of that guy's
> business being on the brink of bankruptcy that was the primary push towards
> the brink.
>
> Tim McTeague
>
>
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 16:13:02
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Per RonSonic:
>Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
I think it's called "The buck stops here." - as opposed to
stonewalling and/or spin control.
--
PeteCresswell
|
| | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:44:45
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:13:02 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid >
wrote:
>Per RonSonic:
>>Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
>I think it's called "The buck stops here." - as opposed to
>stonewalling and/or spin control.
Why do you hate America so much?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 21:48:34
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:13:02 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Per RonSonic:
>>> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>> I think it's called "The buck stops here." - as opposed to
>> stonewalling and/or spin control.
>
> Why do you hate America so much?
POTM Nominee.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| |
Date: 13 Aug 2007 15:42:55
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message
news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
> Wow.
>
> Ron
Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way, he quit
before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over there, and toilet
paper is expensive.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Aug 2007 17:52:03
From:
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 16, 8:43 pm, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
> It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
> impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
Visit www.cyclehelmets.org and read a while. Learn a bit about the
science behind this issue before attempting to discuss it.
And if you do choose to discuss it, put it in an appropriately titled
thread. Many readers will be grateful.
- Frank Krygowski
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <1187311923.846908.286040@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com >,
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 16, 8:43 pm, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
> > impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
>
> Visit www.cyclehelmets.org and read a while. Learn a bit about the
> science behind this issue before attempting to discuss it.
I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
impact.
Sometimes longitudinal, inadequately controlled studies are less than
useful and even misleading.
--
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 Aug 2007 04:05:32
From:
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 20, 7:13 pm, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:41:13 +0000, frkrygow wrote:
> > On Aug 19, 10:35 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> >>> Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
> >> >>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
> >> >>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and
> >> >>>> engineering.
> >> >> still me wrote:
> >> >>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
> >> > (a...@yellowjersey.org):
> >> >> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
>
> >> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> >> > The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
>
> >> Yep, they hold the patent. Among many other patents. A soldier tried (&
> >> failed) to commit suicide by drinking rat poison in the early fifties.
> >> Led to the discovery of its anti-clotting properties.
>
> >> Nitroglycerin's action was noted when explosives factory workers showed
> >> a below-expected incidence of heart trouble in the 1860s.
>
> > The point under debate is getting lost here.
>
> > Nobody doubts there are plenty of accidental discoveries in medicine (as
> > in other fields). But the point is, no matter the source of the
> > original discovery, the _validity_ of the discovery is determined by
> > disciplined tests. Not by anecdotal evidence. Not by hearsay. By
> > statistical processing of data from disciplined tests.
>
> > The FDA would never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence of
> > efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets.
>
> I think you may be overstating things a little. A couple of years ago, the
> FDA approved the use of vagus nerve stimulation for the treatment of
> refractory depression, despite the fact that the agency's staff found no
> statistical evidence that it was more effective than placebo. The agency
> relied in large part on anecdotal accounts by doctors who treated patients
> who improved with vns.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve_stimulation
>
> (The wikipedia entry barely touches on the issue; hearing transcripts on
> the FDA website give a fuller picture of the agency's decision-making
> process.)
>
> Also, once a medication has been approved by the FDA, doctors are usually
> free to use it for conditions other than that for which it was approved
> For instance, the medication Rogaine was, I believe, originally approved
> as a heart medicine and then was put into service by doctors for the
> treatment of baldness. I believe the manufacturer ultimately got a
> separate approval for baldness by conducting new studies, but for years
> doctors were prescribing it for that purpose based largely on anecdotal
> evidence.
>
> Another example -- individual medications need approval, but doctors often
> use combinations of medications, which are much less frequently subjected
> to rigorous testing. Their judgments about the best combinations are often
> based on anecdotal evidence. Given the huge number of medications, the
> even greater number of combinations, and the cost of testing, doctors
> probably have no choice but to rely on less than stellar evidence for the
> foreseeable future.
I agree with the correction. What I should have said is the FDA
_should_ never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence of
efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets!
And, BTW, the last paragraph does indicate the fallibility of
doctors. Some people try to make them into gods, and that includes
some people in the helmet debates. "Well, the doctor in the ER said
the helmet saved my life." But doctors are humans, with a limited
skill set, subject to the same number of errors as the rest of us.
(But it's OK. Some of my best friends are doctors. ;-)
- Frank Krygowski
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Aug 2007 18:13:18
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 03:41:13 +0000, frkrygow wrote:
> On Aug 19, 10:35 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >>> Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
>> >>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
>> >>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and
>> >>>> engineering.
>> >> still me wrote:
>> >>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
>> > (a...@yellowjersey.org):
>> >> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
>>
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>
>> > The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
>>
>> Yep, they hold the patent. Among many other patents. A soldier tried (&
>> failed) to commit suicide by drinking rat poison in the early fifties.
>> Led to the discovery of its anti-clotting properties.
>>
>> Nitroglycerin's action was noted when explosives factory workers showed
>> a below-expected incidence of heart trouble in the 1860s.
>
> The point under debate is getting lost here.
>
> Nobody doubts there are plenty of accidental discoveries in medicine (as
> in other fields). But the point is, no matter the source of the
> original discovery, the _validity_ of the discovery is determined by
> disciplined tests. Not by anecdotal evidence. Not by hearsay. By
> statistical processing of data from disciplined tests.
>
> The FDA would never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence of
> efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets.
>
>
I think you may be overstating things a little. A couple of years ago, the
FDA approved the use of vagus nerve stimulation for the treatment of
refractory depression, despite the fact that the agency's staff found no
statistical evidence that it was more effective than placebo. The agency
relied in large part on anecdotal accounts by doctors who treated patients
who improved with vns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve_stimulation
(The wikipedia entry barely touches on the issue; hearing transcripts on
the FDA website give a fuller picture of the agency's decision-making
process.)
Also, once a medication has been approved by the FDA, doctors are usually
free to use it for conditions other than that for which it was approved
For instance, the medication Rogaine was, I believe, originally approved
as a heart medicine and then was put into service by doctors for the
treatment of baldness. I believe the manufacturer ultimately got a
separate approval for baldness by conducting new studies, but for years
doctors were prescribing it for that purpose based largely on anecdotal
evidence.
Another example -- individual medications need approval, but doctors often
use combinations of medications, which are much less frequently subjected
to rigorous testing. Their judgments about the best combinations are often
based on anecdotal evidence. Given the huge number of medications, the
even greater number of combinations, and the cost of testing, doctors
probably have no choice but to rely on less than stellar evidence for the
foreseeable future.
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 Aug 2007 03:41:13
From:
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 19, 10:35 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >>> Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
> >>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
> >>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and engineering.
> >> still me wrote:
> >>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
> > (a...@yellowjersey.org):
> >> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
>
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> > The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
>
> Yep, they hold the patent. Among many other patents.
> A soldier tried (& failed) to commit suicide by drinking rat poison in
> the early fifties. Led to the discovery of its anti-clotting properties.
>
> Nitroglycerin's action was noted when explosives factory workers showed
> a below-expected incidence of heart trouble in the 1860s.
The point under debate is getting lost here.
Nobody doubts there are plenty of accidental discoveries in medicine
(as in other fields). But the point is, no matter the source of the
original discovery, the _validity_ of the discovery is determined by
disciplined tests. Not by anecdotal evidence. Not by hearsay. By
statistical processing of data from disciplined tests.
The FDA would never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence
of efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets.
- Frank Krygowski
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 Aug 2007 13:44:25
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
>>>>> Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
>>>>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
>>>>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and engineering.
>>>> still me wrote:
>>>>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
>>> (a...@yellowjersey.org):
>>>> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
>> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>>> The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> Yep, they hold the patent. Among many other patents.
>> A soldier tried (& failed) to commit suicide by drinking rat poison in
>> the early fifties. Led to the discovery of its anti-clotting properties.
>> Nitroglycerin's action was noted when explosives factory workers showed
>> a below-expected incidence of heart trouble in the 1860s.
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> The point under debate is getting lost here.
>
> Nobody doubts there are plenty of accidental discoveries in medicine
> (as in other fields). But the point is, no matter the source of the
> original discovery, the _validity_ of the discovery is determined by
> disciplined tests. Not by anecdotal evidence. Not by hearsay. By
> statistical processing of data from disciplined tests.
>
> The FDA would never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence
> of efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets.
That's not only true, it's a currently hot topic.
For some new groups of drugs, each patient's DNA is used to make an
individual dose which screws up the normal models. In others, certain
people will respond well, others will not based on their individual
metabolism not the actual disease. Tough set of decisions no matter how
you view the problem. Advocates say a 'half million deaths' resulted
from lax approval but the numbers can't be all that high given the
limited applications. Tough call.
Like helmets, one's view colors the data deeply, "proof' being elusive
to the converted of all stripes.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 21 Aug 2007 01:15:41
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 13:44:25 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>> The FDA would never allow a medication to be marketed if its evidence
>> of efficacy were as weak as the evidence for bike helmets.
>
>That's not only true, it's a currently hot topic.
I think it's also a highly political topic. The FDA has not shown
itself to be immune to political pressure over the years.
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:28:51
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <1187311923.846908.286040@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 8:43 pm, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
>> > impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
>>
>> Visit www.cyclehelmets.org and read a while. Learn a bit about the
>> science behind this issue before attempting to discuss it.
>
>I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>
>I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>impact.
>
>Sometimes longitudinal, inadequately controlled studies are less than
>useful and even misleading.
But seeing a single injury is clearer? LOL.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:28:23
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <6j1bc399jhrdl5qnt11h1cnq22pus822j4@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <1187311923.846908.286040@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> > frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 16, 8:43 pm, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
> >> > impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
> >>
> >> Visit www.cyclehelmets.org and read a while. Learn a bit about the
> >> science behind this issue before attempting to discuss it.
> >
> >I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
> >
> >I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
> >breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
> >know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
> >impact.
> >
> >Sometimes longitudinal, inadequately controlled studies are less than
> >useful and even misleading.
>
> But seeing a single injury is clearer?
No, lots of isolated cases. A series of solid case studies may be ground
to initiate a population based study, but not all population based
studies can verify the intended points due to the choice of study end
points, methodology and a multitude of other confounding factors,
including a lack of good controls. A negative study doesn't imply
there's no benefit with helmet wearing but rather a case where the study
can not differentiate. If a study is positive for a negative effect with
helmet wearing, then it's a totally different story.
--
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:28:19
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>impact.
I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
general principles from that.
I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
decisions behaved the way you suggest?
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 20:10:20
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>> breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>> know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>> impact.
>
> I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
> recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
> general principles from that.
>
> I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
> think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
> medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
> decisions behaved the way you suggest?
We would get sued by our clients and prosecuted for criminal negligence.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:30:04
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <fe1bc3t40a070u12uitqjgjam2er7ajkjb@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
> >breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
> >know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
> >impact.
>
> I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
> recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
> general principles from that.
>
> I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
> think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
> medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
> decisions behaved the way you suggest?
Ha! Happens all the time in medicine! If your live have been dependent
on your type of "rational practice", you'd be in the ground already.
--
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:30:41
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:04 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <fe1bc3t40a070u12uitqjgjam2er7ajkjb@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>> >breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>> >know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>> >impact.
>>
>> I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
>> recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
>> general principles from that.
>>
>> I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
>> think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
>> medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
>> decisions behaved the way you suggest?
>
>Ha! Happens all the time in medicine!
Scientists making medecines? Really?
> If your live have been dependent
>on your type of "rational practice", you'd be in the ground already.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 07:21:19
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <jb8cc31ns56gfdcqfjrtu5udf17vjil59p@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:04 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <fe1bc3t40a070u12uitqjgjam2er7ajkjb@4ax.com>,
> > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
> >> >breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
> >> >know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
> >> >impact.
> >>
> >> I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
> >> recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
> >> general principles from that.
> >>
> >> I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
> >> think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
> >> medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
> >> decisions behaved the way you suggest?
> >
> >Ha! Happens all the time in medicine!
>
> Scientists making medecines? Really?
You didn't know that did you? Medicine these days are developed in the
labs by scientists (organic chemists, inorganic chemists, physicists,
computer scientists, pharmacists, pharmacologists, microbiologists,
doctors and many others disciplines). Even the clinical testings aren't
all by doctors. Those trials invariably are heavily involved by
statisticians and others. Even the politicians play a role. :(
--
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 04:51:34
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:21:19 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <jb8cc31ns56gfdcqfjrtu5udf17vjil59p@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:30:04 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <fe1bc3t40a070u12uitqjgjam2er7ajkjb@4ax.com>,
>> > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:37:01 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>> >> >breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>> >> >know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>> >> >impact.
>> >>
>> >> I hope I wouldn't change my mind. I'd hope to be rational enough to
>> >> recognize that as an extremely exceptional event and not derive
>> >> general principles from that.
>> >>
>> >> I'd hope that people who make decisions that relate to my life would
>> >> think that clearly too. Can you imagine if scientists making
>> >> medecines, or civil engineers, or other people making important
>> >> decisions behaved the way you suggest?
>> >
>> >Ha! Happens all the time in medicine!
>>
>> Scientists making medecines? Really?
>
>You didn't know that did you? Medicine these days are developed in the
>labs by scientists (organic chemists, inorganic chemists, physicists,
>computer scientists, pharmacists, pharmacologists, microbiologists,
>doctors and many others disciplines). Even the clinical testings aren't
>all by doctors. Those trials invariably are heavily involved by
>statisticians and others. Even the politicians play a role. :(
I don't think you understand my point. My point is that statistics are
a key part of making medecine. Scientists making medecine dont' set
aside statistical info because they had a friend who took something
once and "it obviously saved his life."
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 11:16:29
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <dmcdc3hi931bnh0ds73ljv10jpnl1d4iqb@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:21:19 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >You didn't know that did you? Medicine these days are developed in the
> >labs by scientists (organic chemists, inorganic chemists, physicists,
> >computer scientists, pharmacists, pharmacologists, microbiologists,
> >doctors and many others disciplines). Even the clinical testings aren't
> >all by doctors. Those trials invariably are heavily involved by
> >statisticians and others. Even the politicians play a role. :(
>
> I don't think you understand my point. My point is that statistics are
> a key part of making medecine. Scientists making medecine dont' set
> aside statistical info because they had a friend who took something
> once and "it obviously saved his life."
Well, modern medicine tries to be evidence based but unfortunately not
everything can be proven by level one evidence. Not as if you can
randomize a group of cyclists and smash their heads based on their
allocations of with helmet or without helmet.
Sometimes it's a case of, if it looks, smells, tastes like shxt, it is.
The best clinician uses their experience and instinct on top of what can
be proven by statistics.
--
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Aug 2007 09:51:15
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:16:29 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <dmcdc3hi931bnh0ds73ljv10jpnl1d4iqb@4ax.com>,
> John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:21:19 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >You didn't know that did you? Medicine these days are developed in the
>> >labs by scientists (organic chemists, inorganic chemists, physicists,
>> >computer scientists, pharmacists, pharmacologists, microbiologists,
>> >doctors and many others disciplines). Even the clinical testings aren't
>> >all by doctors. Those trials invariably are heavily involved by
>> >statisticians and others. Even the politicians play a role. :(
>>
>> I don't think you understand my point. My point is that statistics are
>> a key part of making medecine. Scientists making medecine dont' set
>> aside statistical info because they had a friend who took something
>> once and "it obviously saved his life."
>
>Well, modern medicine tries to be evidence based but unfortunately not
>everything can be proven by level one evidence. Not as if you can
>randomize a group of cyclists and smash their heads based on their
>allocations of with helmet or without helmet.
>
>Sometimes it's a case of, if it looks, smells, tastes like shxt, it is.
>The best clinician uses their experience and instinct on top of what can
>be proven by statistics.
And if instinct goes against statistics, in biomedecine, does the
medecine ever get put into use? Ever?
You apparently have an instinct against evidence, so you assume there
is something wrong with the evidence.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 07:17:26
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <n8udc3t2dvqpv7pkkmsp0lm4rtkbsetg4f@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:16:29 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Sometimes it's a case of, if it looks, smells, tastes like shxt, it is.
> >The best clinician uses their experience and instinct on top of what can
> >be proven by statistics.
>
> And if instinct goes against statistics, in biomedecine, does the
> medecine ever get put into use? Ever?
>
> You apparently have an instinct against evidence, so you assume there
> is something wrong with the evidence.
No, you have an instinct to put shutters against evidence that goes
against your point of view.
It is well known those longitudinal and meta cohort studies are subject
to criticisms. And the negative results seen in some of those studies
does not exclude potential benefits of helmet wearing. It just shows
that the study, given the power of the study, was not able to
demonstrate a difference.
And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science discoveries
that were led by instinct, contrary to the best "evidences" of the day.
Similar can be said in science and engineering.
--
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 15:23:25
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:17:26 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science discoveries
>that were led by instinct, contrary to the best "evidences" of the day.
>Similar can be said in science and engineering.
>--
And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 19:37:08
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
> Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science discoveries
>> that were led by instinct, contrary to the best "evidences" of the day.
>> Similar can be said in science and engineering.
still me wrote:
> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 20:15:02
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Andrew Muzi mused:
>> Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and engineering.
>
> still me wrote:
>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
>
> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 21:35:45
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
>>> Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> And yes, there's been more than a few major medical science
>>>> discoveries that were led by instinct, contrary to the best
>>>> "evidences" of the day. Similar can be said in science and engineering.
>> still me wrote:
>>> And probably as many by accident and observed side effect.
> (am@yellowjersey.org):
>> See also: Warfarin/Coumadin
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> The only drug/poison named after an alumni foundation?
Yep, they hold the patent. Among many other patents.
A soldier tried (& failed) to commit suicide by drinking rat poison in
the early fifties. Led to the discovery of its anti-clotting properties.
Nitroglycerin's action was noted when explosives factory workers showed
a below-expected incidence of heart trouble in the 1860s.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Aug 2007 06:53:00
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:17:26 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>It is well known those longitudinal and meta cohort studies are subject
>to criticisms.
Everything is "subject to criticisms" -- the question is, what are
those criticisms and how valid are they?
>And the negative results seen in some of those studies
>does not exclude potential benefits of helmet wearing.
Right, like protecting against cuts and scrapes and bruises. Most
people accept that. So what?
> And yes, there's been more than a few
> major medical science discoveries
> that were led by instinct, contrary to the
> best "evidences" of the day.
> Similar can be said in science and engineering.
You're conflating (intentionally I believe), coming up with ideas and
testing them.
--
JT
****************************
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****************************
|
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 21:21:30
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Artoi??? wrote:
> In article <1187311923.846908.286040@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 8:43 pm, Artoi <ar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> It doesn't take a genius to understand the implication of a high speed
>>> impact that shatters a helmet yet allows the rider to walk away.
>> Visit www.cyclehelmets.org and read a while. Learn a bit about the
>> science behind this issue before attempting to discuss it.
>
> I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>
> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
> breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
> know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
> impact.
Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the energy
of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper motorcycle helmet.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:36:10
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <46c4fa15$0$19694$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:
> Artoi??? wrote:
> > I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
> >
> > I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
> > breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
> > know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
> > impact.
>
> Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the energy
> of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper motorcycle helmet.
Looks like all those lab and engineering testing all created zero value
according to your description.
--
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:39:10
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Artoi wrote:
> In article <46c4fa15$0$19694$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Artoi??? wrote:
>
>>> I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>>>
>>> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>>> breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>>> know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the energy of
>>> impact.
>> Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the energy
>> of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper motorcycle helmet.
>
> Looks like all those lab and engineering testing all created zero value
> according to your description.
Bicycle foam hats are designed to protect the rider's head in low-speed
falls, nothing more.
I usually wear a foam hat for bump and scrape protection, but have no
illusions that it would do much to prevent serious brain injury.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 09:36:11
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Artoi wrote:
> In article <46c4fa15$0$19694$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>
>> Artoi??? wrote:
>
>>> I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>>>
>>> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>>> breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>>> know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the
>>> energy of impact.
>>
>> Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the
>> energy of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper
>> motorcycle helmet.
> Looks like all those lab and engineering testing all created zero
> value according to your description.
Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their products in
styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to PROPOGATE THE MYTH that
the stuff works.
Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw 'em on the
truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
Bill "helmet conspiracist" S.
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:42:06
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Artoi wrote:
>> In article <46c4fa15$0$19694$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Artoi??? wrote:
>>>> I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker to
>>>> breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then you'd
>>>> know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce the
>>>> energy of impact.
>>> Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the
>>> energy of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper
>>> motorcycle helmet.
>
>> Looks like all those lab and engineering testing all created zero
>> value according to your description.
>
> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their products in
> styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to PROPOGATE THE MYTH that
> the stuff works.
>
> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw 'em on the
> truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
How well would those foam packed consumer electronics survive being hit
by a SUV?
I saw one of those molded pieces of expanded polystyrene used to pack
computer towers blow out of the back of a truck. When the car following
hit the foam, it disintegrated into many little pieces.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:41:28
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> Bill Sornson wrote:
>> Artoi wrote:
>>> In article <46c4fa15$0$19694$88260bb3@free.teranews.com>,
>>> "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Artoi??? wrote:
>>>>> I see that you don't believe in wearing seat belts either.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect you would change your mind if you've ever used a sucker
>>>>> to breakdown some brain tissue during an open skull surgery. Then
>>>>> you'd know how fragile the brain is and what it meant to reduce
>>>>> the energy of impact.
>>>> Yes, but a foam bicycle hat has very little ability to reduce the
>>>> energy of impact transferred to the head compared to a proper
>>>> motorcycle helmet.
>>
>>> Looks like all those lab and engineering testing all created zero
>>> value according to your description.
>>
>> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their
>> products in styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to
>> PROPOGATE THE MYTH that the stuff works.
>>
>> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw
>> 'em on the truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
>
> How well would those foam packed consumer electronics survive being
> hit by a SUV?
Well, if they're brushed by one and fall 4-5 feet, they have a helluva lot
better chance of still working than without the added padding and
protection.
> I saw one of those molded pieces of expanded polystyrene used to pack
> computer towers blow out of the back of a truck. When the car
> following hit the foam, it disintegrated into many little pieces.
Of course it did. The whole idea of the stuff is to be /against/ something
(like a skull or TV) or /contained/ (like, I dunno, in a helmet shell! Or
cardboard box.). HTH
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> BEER IS FOOD
So is Katsup Ketchup Catchup Catsoup
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 21:59:47
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Bill Sornson wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> ...
>> BEER IS FOOD
>
> So is Katsup Ketchup Catchup Catsoup
butbutbut, those are also vegetables! ;)
Thank you John Block(head).
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:35:26
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <46c5ce7b$0$4091$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote:
> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their products in
> styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to PROPOGATE THE MYTH that
> the stuff works.
>
> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw 'em on the
> truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
Surprise that you have not come across independent 3rd party testing
labs. And then there are governmental agencies that specializes in
monitoring these standards.
How much protection can foam provide? Actually, quite a bit when it's
engineered properly along with proper selection of materials. But if you
like to pop multiple white styrofoam cups on your head before you ride,
then I'd suggest that there are better "foams" out there.
--
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 15:48:00
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
Artoi wrote:
> In article <46c5ce7b$0$4091$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote (about something):
>> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their
>> products in styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to
>> PROPOGATE THE MYTH that the stuff works.
>>
>> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw
>> 'em on the truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
> Surprise that you have not come across independent 3rd party testing
> labs. And then there are governmental agencies that specializes in
> monitoring these standards.
>
> How much protection can foam provide? Actually, quite a bit when it's
> engineered properly along with proper selection of materials. But if
> you like to pop multiple white styrofoam cups on your head before you
> ride, then I'd suggest that there are better "foams" out there.
Um, you do realize that I was agreeing with you, right? (You deleted your
own comments to which I replied.)
HTH
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 18:31:18
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:35:26 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com > wrote:
>In article <46c5ce7b$0$4091$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
>
>> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their products in
>> styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to PROPOGATE THE MYTH that
>> the stuff works.
>>
>> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw 'em on the
>> truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
>
>Surprise that you have not come across independent 3rd party testing
>labs. And then there are governmental agencies that specializes in
>monitoring these standards.
>
>How much protection can foam provide? Actually, quite a bit when it's
>engineered properly along with proper selection of materials. But if you
>like to pop multiple white styrofoam cups on your head before you ride,
>then I'd suggest that there are better "foams" out there.
You're just rambling.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 18 Aug 2007 07:16:48
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <ad8cc3d3u6tmkitjluhqun1lq60atqqnb6@4ax.com >,
John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:35:26 GMT, Artoi <artoi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <46c5ce7b$0$4091$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me> wrote:
> >
> >> Also, of course, all those BIG EVIL CORPORATIONS that ship their products
> >> in
> >> styrofoam-enforced packaging are just doing it to PROPOGATE THE MYTH that
> >> the stuff works.
> >>
> >> Hell, just slap those plasma TVs and computers in a box and throw 'em on
> >> the
> >> truck. HOW MUCH HELP COULD "FOAM" PROVIDE?!?
> >
> >Surprise that you have not come across independent 3rd party testing
> >labs. And then there are governmental agencies that specializes in
> >monitoring these standards.
> >
> >How much protection can foam provide? Actually, quite a bit when it's
> >engineered properly along with proper selection of materials. But if you
> >like to pop multiple white styrofoam cups on your head before you ride,
> >then I'd suggest that there are better "foams" out there.
>
> You're just rambling.
You are not? Shock!
--
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 01:22:18
From: Artoi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com >,
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
> Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way, he quit
> before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over there, and toilet
> paper is expensive.
American GIs are cheap too in Dubya's eyes. :P
--
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 16:40:38
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com >,
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
> "RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
> > Suicide
> >
> > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Ron
>
>
> Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way,
> he quit before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over
> there, and toilet paper is expensive.
Life doesn't seem to be worth all that much here, either.
|
| | | |
Date: 22 Aug 2007 11:07:52
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-18236F.16403813082007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> > "RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
> > > Suicide
> > >
> > > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> > >
> > > Wow.
> > >
> > > Ron
> >
> >
> > Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way,
> > he quit before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over
> > there, and toilet paper is expensive.
>
> Life doesn't seem to be worth all that much here, either.
Yes but..... we can get it cheaper from China.....
Chas.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 19:30:21
From: Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-18236F.16403813082007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>> "RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
>> news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
>> > Suicide
>> >
>> > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>> >
>> > Wow.
>> >
>> > Ron
>>
>>
>> Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way,
>> he quit before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over
>> there, and toilet paper is expensive.
>
> Life doesn't seem to be worth all that much here, either.
After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland China.
At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my breath.
And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
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Date: 22 Aug 2007 11:15:12
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net > wrote
in message news:13c1qj4hp9n68e1@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-18236F.16403813082007@news.iphouse.com...
> > In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com>,
> > "Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
> >> > Suicide
> >> >
> >> > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >> >
> >> > Wow.
> >> >
> >> > Ron
> >>
> >>
> >> Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a way,
> >> he quit before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap over
> >> there, and toilet paper is expensive.
> >
> > Life doesn't seem to be worth all that much here, either.
>
>
> After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland
China.
> At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads of
> people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my
breath.
> And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can help it.
>
>
Two parallel cultural traditions:
"Cheaper is better" and "Fragrant Grease" (the social lubricant that makes
things happen in corrupt governments and institutions).
Under the current Chinese regime you can not do or say anything that might
bring about social or political change. You can however make as much money
as possible especially if you spread it around and grease the wheels a
little.
Greed is good!
Chas.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:04:17
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
In article <13c1qj4hp9n68e1@corp.supernews.com >,
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net >
wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-18236F.16403813082007@news.iphouse.com...
> > In article <13c1d8ml8445024@corp.supernews.com>, "Bellsouth Ijit
> > 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bjit@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "RonSonic" <ronsonic@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0481c39947u1knio6qkiv2ll3bhqb4kse7@4ax.com...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall
> >> > Commits Suicide
> >> >
> >> > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >> >
> >> > Wow.
> >> >
> >> > Ron
> >>
> >>
> >> Why not? The government would have executed him anyway. In a
> >> way, he quit before they had a chance to fire him. Life is cheap
> >> over there, and toilet paper is expensive.
> >
> > Life doesn't seem to be worth all that much here, either.
>
> After having my dog almost die from melamine-tainted dog food, I am
> justifiably cynical and weary of anything coming over from mainland
> China.
I am sorry to hear that, the melamine tainted pet food was an awful
thing. I was scrutinizing the cat food I feed my cat(s) very closely
and looking at the lists of identified food brands daily. It made me
think quite a bit about switching to Sojourner.
> At this rate, the Chinese government will have to execute cartloads
> of people to get their quality control in order. I'm not holding my
> breath. And I'm not buyig anything coming over from there if I can
> help it.
In general I try to buy US-made products when I can. It would probably
be impossible to not buy any products made in China, though.
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 12:32:56
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Aug 13, 1:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>
> Wow.
>
> Ron
Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
would have been.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:44:31
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1187033576.940579.239300@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 13, 1:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
Suicide
> >
> > http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Ron
>
> Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
> would have been.
>
Curbside justice! Worst case of suicide I ever saw.
Chas.
|
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:22:52
From: still me
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:32:56 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Aug 13, 1:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>>
>> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>> Ron
>
>Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
>would have been.
Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much. Probably
the same general path for the Chinese guy.
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Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:46:22
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
"still me" <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:0cm1c3h5co1jpb2p4ag9m6jli7pk9p8ahe@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:32:56 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 13, 1:20 pm, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits
Suicide
> >>
> >> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
> >>
> >> Wow.
> >>
> >> Ron
> >
> >Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
> >would have been.
>
> Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much. Probably
> the same general path for the Chinese guy.
Lay? Show me the body.
The deal was set up that if he died his family got to keep all the money
he stole.
Chas.
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 17:39:03
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
|
>> RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>>> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
>>> Wow.
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> Just imagine what the fate of Lay, Fastow and the other Enron crooks
>> would have been.
still me wrote:
> Lay? I think he got the death sentence for knowing too much. Probably
> the same general path for the Chinese guy.
The conspiracy types claim otherwise: Patsy's body gets Lay's death
certificate, doctor signs off for some $$ and Kenny moves to Brunei or
Vesco's yacht or some such.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 13 Aug 2007 12:07:15
From: mtb Dad
Subject: Re: Chinese Executive Kills Self Amid Recall
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On Aug 13, 11:20 am, RonSonic <ronso...@tampabay.rr.com > wrote:
> Report: Head of China Toy Company at Center of U.S. Recall Commits Suicide
>
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=3472626&page=1
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> Wow.
>
> Ron
I hope Hein VerDRUggen doesn't see that piece on his trips to Beijing
and start getting all guilty feeling or anything.
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