Classic Touring Frames

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Date: 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Classic Touring Frames

I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
these features?

The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
frames, or know of any similar ones?

Jesse

Date: 10 Jun 2007 07:41:56
From: Forbes B-Black
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 9, 2:53 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:36:24 -0700, Forbes B-Black wrote:
> > Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, snatch it
> > up.
>
> I don't see what's so great about them.

I like B'stones because I know that some thought went into the
design. Take my 198? Bridgestone/Kabuki Skyway 12, f'rinstance. Here
we have a cheap, high tensile steel frame with bulge-formed lugs and
other hints that it was manufactured using inexpensive materials.

The frame is 67cm. I have seen a few 67cm Fujis, and one 67cm
"Terranaut." These other bikes were made from pricier tubing, they
had nice, forged dropouts, and other hints that they were "higher
quality."

The top tube on the Terranaut was 56cm. The top tube on the big Fujis
is ~59cm. The top tube on my "cheapo" B'stone is 61.5cm, so it is the
only frame in the bunch that I am comfortable riding at 6'6".

I used to sell B'stones (and Giants, and others). It was always hard
to sell the B'stones, because it was hard to find people who
appreciated the design differences enough to kick down the extra $$,
especially since the B'stones did not tend to be the lightest bikes in
the store. But the people who bought them always seemed happy with
them. I don't think it had to do with cults or hobbits. I just think
that some folks liked the way the B'stones were designed. They were
different from the other bikes. More thought went into designing the
frames and spec'ing the components. They weren't for everyone, but
they worked perfectly for a lot of people.

- FBB

Date: 10 Jun 2007 12:51:32
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Forbes B-Black" <diarmaede@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1181486516.384080.303660@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 2:53 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:36:24 -0700, Forbes B-Black wrote:
> > > Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, snatch it
> > > up.
> >
> > I don't see what's so great about them.
>
> I like B'stones because I know that some thought went into the
> design. Take my 198? Bridgestone/Kabuki Skyway 12, f'rinstance. Here
> we have a cheap, high tensile steel frame with bulge-formed lugs and
> other hints that it was manufactured using inexpensive materials.
>
> The frame is 67cm. I have seen a few 67cm Fujis, and one 67cm
> "Terranaut." These other bikes were made from pricier tubing, they
> had nice, forged dropouts, and other hints that they were "higher
> quality."
>
> The top tube on the Terranaut was 56cm. The top tube on the big Fujis
> is ~59cm. The top tube on my "cheapo" B'stone is 61.5cm, so it is the
> only frame in the bunch that I am comfortable riding at 6'6".
>
> I used to sell B'stones (and Giants, and others). It was always hard
> to sell the B'stones, because it was hard to find people who
> appreciated the design differences enough to kick down the extra $$,
> especially since the B'stones did not tend to be the lightest bikes in
> the store. But the people who bought them always seemed happy with
> them. I don't think it had to do with cults or hobbits. I just think
> that some folks liked the way the B'stones were designed. They were
> different from the other bikes. More thought went into designing the
> frames and spec'ing the components. They weren't for everyone, but
> they worked perfectly for a lot of people.
>
> - FBB

Yes, you're probably correct about Bridgestones at that time.

The cult following comments refer to today's interest in these older bikes
and the Rivendell connection with all of the cutesy marketing names they
have for their products (someone there read too many "xxxx For Dummies"
books). I cringe when I hear grown men using babytalk terms referring to
bike components.

In the 1970s we sold European bikes over the more flashy, better finished
Japanese bikes of the time.

The (pre-Cyclone, pre-Dura-Ace) Japanese bikes with Suntour rear
derailleurs shifted better but the frame geometries generally didn't
handle or ride very well.

There wasn't a big market for 10 speed bikes or sport cycling in Japan.
They had Keirin track racing with paramutual betting (which is more like
horse racing than cycling sport) but most Japanese rode 50 Lb. one or
three speed rod brake clunkers. Also, the Japanese people were of a much
smaller stature overall than the average American or European.

The Japanese bikes coming into the US were made to the specs given them by
half a dozen or so bicycle importers/distributors some of whom where just
trying to cash in on the American Bike Boom.

Brand names like Azuki (a small bean), Takara (a plum), Nishiki (made up
to sound Japanese), Sekine. Shogun, Lotus and a slew of other Japanese
sounding words didn't exist as bicycle companies in Japan. Fuji,
Bridgestone, Panasonic and Miyata were actual manufacturers (after a
sort).

The early Japanese bike were mostly made from very heavy gage gas pipe
tubing. A standard Japanese 10 speed with steel rims and cranks weighed 32
to 38 Lbs. vs. 28 Lbs. for a comparably equipped European bike. The top
tubes were either too long or too short for the frame size. Some had a 75°
or 76° head tube with a 2.5" or 3" fork rake so they rode and handled like
a wheelbarrow.

By the late 1970s the frame designs improved drastically when they started
copying European geometry.

Sheldon has a lot of info on this:

http://sheldonbrown.com/japan.html#kabuki

I lived in Japan in 1964 and 65. I had a Bridgestone light weight 10 speed
with European components that I rode all over central Japan on.

Chas.

Date: 10 Jun 2007 20:28:42
From: still me
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:51:32 -0700, "* * Chas"
<verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:

>Takara (a plum),

Ah yes, Takara. Very nice for the Japanese bikes of that day. Well
finished, quality components as long as you reached in the middle of
the model line and reliable, if somewhat heavy, components in the
lower part of the line. Surprised they didn't survive, but they didn't
have the name recognition of some of the others.

Date: 10 Jun 2007 05:20:19
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 8, 11:04 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Pilgrim" <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181164469.869864.266340@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 9:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > > these features?
>
> > > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > > Jesse
>
> > After reading Sheldon's article about them, I'm starting to consider
> > the old fillet-brazed Schwinns. Not to sound like a poser, but I
> > really like the idea of an American built frame, especially a
> > handbuilt one. I guess if I'm being honest, this bike's as much a
> > fashion statement as it is transportation. But then, I live in San
> > Francisco, and half the kids here ride bikes with no brakes just to
> > look cool. A little "Made in America" sticker isn't too bad is it?
>
> > Anyhow, about the Schwinns; I don't see braze-ons for racks on any of
> > the ones on eBay, and they don't appear to have cantilever brakes.
> > Anyone know about tire/fender clearance on these bikes. is it possible
> > to braze on your own brake, pump, and rack fittings? I've done a
> > little brazing, so it seems doable.
>
> The old filet brazed Schwinns were 40 Lb. tanks made from very heavy wall
> thickness tubing. There was probably 1/2 Lb. of brazing material on each
> frame.
>
> There were one or two models made with alloy steel and one made with
> thinner wall thickness tubes; the rest were made from gas pipe.
>
> One of the big problems with the old Schwinns was/is they used undersized
> tubing and better quality components don't fit the seat and downtube
> without modification. Another could be getting quality modern wheels to
> fit.
>
> Here's what could be a good deal on a Centurion lugged steel frame touring
> bike from the late 70s or early 80s. It has good touring components from
> the pre-index days and what looks to be a good frame. Tange #2 double
> butted tubing was comparable to Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL tubes.
>
> It appears that someone put on a cheap set of 27" bolt on wheels. That can
> be easily fixed with some better wheels.
>
> I have nothing to do with this auction, I just ran across it today and
> thought it matched what you were looking for.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/56-CM-Centurion-Chapion-2-PRO-TOUR-15-MENS-15-spe...
>
> Chas.

Hey, thanks for the link. Funny thing, my daily rider is a Centurian.
Totally decent bike. But that one's a bit small. I'm 6'2" with long
legs. I'm looking for something in the 60-64cm range.

Date: 10 Jun 2007 02:16:26
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 9, 4:53 pm, Matt O'Toole <mattoto...@letterboxes.org > wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:36:24 -0700, Forbes B-Black wrote:

> > Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, snatch it
> > up.
>
> I don't see what's so great about them. In particular, the RBT is a full
> pound or two heavier than some of its contemporaries. And now,
> Bridgestones are trendy, making them expensive on the used market.
>

<snipped >

>
> > Fuji and Centurion made some decent bikes and you can pick them
> > up CHEAP (although they are not quite as nice as Treks or B'Stones).
> > If you can find an old Miyata touring frame, that's another excellent
> > candidate.
>
> All better bets. There are a lot of old frames around that are
> nicer and a better value than Bridgestones. So why all the hype? Some
> trendy cult thing I guess.
>

Bridgestone had a guy who wrote good ad copy. He also "invented" a
character (Pineapple Bob) and the BOB club.

Now he toils for a bicycle company run, apparently, by hobbits and he
flogs overpriced bike bags and odd size wheels and tires.

Date: 09 Jun 2007 10:36:24
From: Forbes B-Black
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 5, 9:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com > wrote:

> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
They are glorious, wonderful frames. I had several friends ride
across America on old lugged Treks. Never any (frame) problems.

Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, snatch it
up. Fuji and Centurion made some decent bikes and you can pick them
up CHEAP (although they are not quite as nice as Treks or B'Stones).
If you can find an old Miyata touring frame, that's another excellent
candidate.

Have you checked out:

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/BOBishBikesFS

Bob Hufford and his minions mine craigslist, eBay, etc. for old,
lugged bikes and post the FS ads here. It's a nice resource.

Have fun shopping!

- Forbes

Date: 09 Jun 2007 17:53:27
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 10:36:24 -0700, Forbes B-Black wrote:

> On Jun 5, 9:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
>> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
>> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>>
> They are glorious, wonderful frames. I had several friends ride
> across America on old lugged Treks. Never any (frame) problems.
>
> Bridgestones are also great. if you can find an old RBT, snatch it
> up.

I don't see what's so great about them. In particular, the RBT is a full
pound or two heavier than some of its contemporaries. And now,
Bridgestones are trendy, making them expensive on the used market.

Bridgestone MTB frames are nice because they have steep (72 deg) head
angles, making them more suitable for suspension forks than the other MTB
frames from the early 90s that originally came without suspension. The
steeper head angles are nicer on the road, too.

> Fuji and Centurion made some decent bikes and you can pick them
> up CHEAP (although they are not quite as nice as Treks or B'Stones).
> If you can find an old Miyata touring frame, that's another excellent
> candidate.

All better bets. There are a lot of old frames around that are
nicer and a better value than Bridgestones. So why all the hype? Some
trendy cult thing I guess.

Matt O.

Date: 08 Jun 2007 19:04:03
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 11:36 am, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com > wrote:
> > Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
> > extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.
>
> Should I clarify that I'm looking for a sub $400 frame too?

Look for a Woodrup Giro frame. Most of them are touring bikes, if not
all, full 531 DB, well-finished lugged construction even if not up to
Waterford or Richard Sachs standards. They're undervalued, I got an
unbuilt slightly shopworn frame with fork off Ebay for about $200
including shipping a few years back.

Nice supple ride, flexy, corners as if on rails, but needs a lot of
turn-in force at speed, very cushy over bumps and jitters.

Ken

Date: 08 Jun 2007 00:20:33
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Bike Messengers NYC

>>>>> I used to go down to watch the night races on the Hellyer Park
>>>>> Velodrome banked track in San Jose, CA The fixed gear is quite
>>>>> noisy, and when you get a swarm of 30 track riders all bunched
>>>>> together, it's a pretty eerie sound.

> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>>>> I don't know what you were hearing but even block inch pitch chain
>>>> made no audible noise if the sprockets were not hoooked from
>>>> running a badly elongated chain. What do you believe makes sound
>>>> on a fixed gear bicycle that is different from a road bicycle whose
>>>> chain is inaudible when riding?
>>>> There seems to be something fishy in Denmark!

>> Tom Nakashima writes:
>>> Sometime put both a track bike then a road bike on a bike stand and
>>> rotate it by hand. Listen carefully to the sound, there is a
>>> difference.

> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>> Back to the question. What is different that you believe makes noise.
>> As I said, I have observed many bicycles in motion on road and track
>> and not found what you describe. The most I could hear was track
>> rumble when the pack came by on an indoor board track.

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> We did this over lunch. My friend has a fixed gear that he rides and
> I have my road bike. First I raised the rear of the bike and pedaled as he
> listened and then we reversed roles. We both agreed the fixed gear is
> definitely louder. We both came to the conclusion that the pulley's of the
> derailleur must act as a sound dampener. That's the only thing that we
> could see different, other than the 1/4' track chain, 3/32" road chain.
> My friend also said some track riders opt to purchase a quiet chain...
> whatever that is? He said some chains are quieter than others.

There's no inherent reason for one to be louder than the other, all else
being of equal quality, lubrication and wear. On my own bikes, I can't
hear a difference.

We do see a lot of home built fixies with excessively tight chain - and
all the concomitant expenses. But I assume actual track bikes would get
reasonable setup.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 08 Jun 2007 00:50:56
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Bike Messengers NYC

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:136hppefdhj860c@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote
>>> Back to the question. What is different that you believe makes noise.
>>> As I said, I have observed many bicycles in motion on road and track
>>> and not found what you describe. The most I could hear was track
>>> rumble when the pack came by on an indoor board track.
>
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>> We did this over lunch. My friend has a fixed gear that he rides and
>> I have my road bike. First I raised the rear of the bike and pedaled as
>> he listened and then we reversed roles. We both agreed the fixed gear is
>> definitely louder. We both came to the conclusion that the pulley's of
>> the derailleur must act as a sound dampener. That's the only thing that
>> we
>> could see different, other than the 1/4' track chain, 3/32" road chain.
>> My friend also said some track riders opt to purchase a quiet chain...
>> whatever that is? He said some chains are quieter than others.
>
> There's no inherent reason for one to be louder than the other, all else
> being of equal quality, lubrication and wear. On my own bikes, I can't
> hear a difference.
>
> We do see a lot of home built fixies with excessively tight chain - and
> all the concomitant expenses. But I assume actual track bikes would get
> reasonable setup.

There are a couple of other possibilities: the chain being so loose that it
allows enough lateral movement for it to _almost_ derail and hang upon the
tip of cog teeth as it engages the cog; and the tension on the chain being
tight enough that small out of roundnesses on the cog and chainwheel cause
high spots and even greater (stretching) tension on the chain, especially a
consideration on cheaply made cogs and chainwheels.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 16:03:55
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 11:13 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> > Doesn't have canti BO's.

> That was the only one currently on eBay. The OP seemed to indicate that
> they were looking for an older frame.

Yo, not finding fault. Trying to stick to the OP's specs.

I poked around in old Trek brochures online, perhaps my memory of
canti brakes on Trek touring bikes is wrong.

Very possible. --D-y

Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:12:59
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 4:50 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1181249732.126764.95650@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 3:34 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > > "Matt O'Toole" <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
>
> > >news:pan.2007.06.07.18.20.41.214400@letterboxes.org...
>
> > > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
>
> > > > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
>
> > > > >> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being
> made
> > > with
> > > > >>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to
> 700C.
> > > That
> > > > >>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the
> 720
> > > of
> > > > >>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper
> brakes
> > > > >>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe
> cantilever
> > > > >>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and
> tires
> > > > >>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
>
> > > > >>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> > > > >>> bikes.
>
> > > > >> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4
> tires in
> > > a
> > > > >> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you
> get
> > > > >> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if
> not in
> > > > >> town.
>
> > > > > You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels
> between
> > > > > bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use
> with
> > > a
> > > > > couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare
> folding
> > > > > tire if going on an extended tour.
>
> > > > > My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do
> sell a
> > > > > couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires
> will
> > > > > soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store
> circuit
> > > and
> > > > > the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.
>
> > > > I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
> > > years
> > > > ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants
> > > were
> > > > formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in
> hardware
> > > and
> > > > department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size
> > > wheels.
>
> > > > Matt O.
>
> > > Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
> > > panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
> > > tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his
> way.
>
> > > I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
> > > places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
> > > readily available size.
>
> > 650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)
>
> http://www.discoverfrance.com/
>
> "Remulak... a small town in France. We come from France."

650B - the Conehead's choice!

Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:55:32
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 3:34 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Matt O'Toole" <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
>
> news:pan.2007.06.07.18.20.41.214400@letterboxes.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
>
> > >> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made
> with
> > >>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C.
> That
> > >>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720
> of
> > >>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
> > >>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
> > >>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
> > >>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
>
> > >>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> > >>> bikes.
>
> > >> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in
> a
> > >> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
> > >> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
> > >> town.
>
> > > You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
> > > bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with
> a
> > > couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
> > > tire if going on an extended tour.
>
> > > My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
> > > couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
> > > soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit
> and
> > > the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.
>
> > I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
> years
> > ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants
> were
> > formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware
> and
> > department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size
> wheels.
>
> > Matt O.
>
> Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
> panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
> tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his way.
>
> I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
> places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
> readily available size.
>

650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)

Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:50:50
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1181249732.126764.95650@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 3:34 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "Matt O'Toole" <mattoto...@letterboxes.org> wrote in message
> >
> > news:pan.2007.06.07.18.20.41.214400@letterboxes.org...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
> >
> > > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
> >
> > > >> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being
made
> > with
> > > >>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to
700C.
> > That
> > > >>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the
720
> > of
> > > >>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper
brakes
> > > >>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe
cantilever
> > > >>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and
tires
> > > >>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
> >
> > > >>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> > > >>> bikes.
> >
> > > >> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4
tires in
> > a
> > > >> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you
get
> > > >> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if
not in
> > > >> town.
> >
> > > > You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels
between
> > > > bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use
with
> > a
> > > > couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare
folding
> > > > tire if going on an extended tour.
> >
> > > > My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do
sell a
> > > > couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires
will
> > > > soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store
circuit
> > and
> > > > the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.
> >
> > > I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
> > years
> > > ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants
> > were
> > > formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in
hardware
> > and
> > > department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size
> > wheels.
> >
> > > Matt O.
> >
> > Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
> > panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
> > tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his
way.
> >
> > I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
> > places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
> > readily available size.
> >
>
> 650Bs are common.........in France!! ;-)
>

http://www.discoverfrance.com/

"Remulak... a small town in France. We come from France."

http://www.wavsource.com/snds_2007-06-02_1579284943785088/tv/snl/aykroyd_coneheads4.wav

Chas.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:53:18
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 3:39 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
> > of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
> > and thorn-resistant) to go with them.
>
> This brings up another interesting point -- that the touring bike
> should be drilled for schrader.
>
>

This very subject came up just yesterday in the "Replacing a busted
MA-3 rim with a Sun CR18?" thread:

http://tinyurl.com/yo66dw

IMO, it's a very sensible idea; in a pinch (no pun intended!), you can
use a commonly available MTB tube, which are nearly always Schrader
valve.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:39:45
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

> I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
> of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
> and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

This brings up another interesting point -- that the touring bike
should be drilled for schrader.

Doug

Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:30:06
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

> I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore.

Absolutely correct but totally unimportant. It's not how many you
would find that's important, it's where you would find them. In fact,
a hardware store will only have one or maybe two, but one is all you
need, and it it will be a very usable tire, 27 by 1-1/4, made for
commuting, not light, but not too heavy for serious use, either, with
a straight flat rib down the center. You know the tire.

I am not talking about Walmart or Target. Those are in towns which
have a bike shop.

> You could 20 years
> ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
> formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
> department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels

Wrong. I have double checked this in recent years. Go in a hardware
store yourself and see, they have the same or nearly the same
assortment of tires that they always did, which includes a 27" or two
but no 700.

Doug

Date: 07 Jun 2007 16:06:21
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 9:49 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "Gary Young" <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:DvWdnUbcf-i9ivXbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
> >> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> >>news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
> >>> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGin...@comcast.com>,
> >>> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> >>>> with 650b tires.
>
> >>> Who?
>
> >> Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
> >>http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>
> >>http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html
>
> >> -tom
>
> > Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).
>
> Yes I was aware of that, but thought his thread was leaning against
> touring on smaller wheels other than 700c or 27".
> But one other thing that you probably already know is 584mm/650B
> is known as 26 x 1 1/2 and is very common in France for touring bikes.

Something to keep in mind when you are touring in France.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 16:05:26
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 7, 9:33 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:
> > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> >news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
> >> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGin...@comcast.com>,
> >> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> >>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> >>> with 650b tires.
>
> >> Who?
>
> > Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>
> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html
>
> > -tom
>
> Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-
>

That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
guy.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:16:22
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1181232326.716421.124360@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 9:33 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:
>> > "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>> >news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
>> >> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGin...@comcast.com>,
>> >> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>> >>> with 650b tires.
>>
>> >> Who?
>>
>> > Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
>> >http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>>
>> >http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html
>>
>> > -tom
>>
>> Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-
>>
>
> That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
> guy.
>

He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
A very serious individual who puts out a good product.
-tom

Date: 07 Jun 2007 16:13:15
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

>>>>> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>>>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>>>>>> with 650b tires.

>>>> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote
>>>>> Who?

>>> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>>>> Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
>>>> http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>>>> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

>> Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).-

> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote
>> That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
>> guy.

Tom Nakashima wrote:
> He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
> A very serious individual who puts out a good product.

Speaking as The Last Bruce Gordon Cycles Dealer, he is not only a
craftsman/artisan of the first rank but an experienced touring cyclist
with many innovative approaches and developments to his credit.

Being unable to work for 23c an hour, people whose products are
sometimes unfairly compared to his, he does have a cynical and bitter
side. If you can manage to engage him enough to buy something, it can be
well worth the effort.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:21:43
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:136gt7ngfmciq2c@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote
>>> That's because Bruce Gordon is a sensible, down-to-earth, no BS kinda
>>> guy.
>
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>> He sure is, I met him at the Cupertino Swap meet years ago.
>> A very serious individual who puts out a good product.
>
> Speaking as The Last Bruce Gordon Cycles Dealer, he is not only a
> craftsman/artisan of the first rank but an experienced touring cyclist
> with many innovative approaches and developments to his credit.
>
> Being unable to work for 23c an hour, people whose products are sometimes
> unfairly compared to his, he does have a cynical and bitter side. If you
> can manage to engage him enough to buy something, it can be well worth the
> effort.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Yea, I just hate to hear the bitterness of some of these master frame
builders. Eisentraut was another, outstanding craftsman, but never made
the big bucks. Gordon said in an interview a few years ago, when asked
what he would do different in his life, he answered; "Get a real job!"
-tom

Date: 07 Jun 2007 08:48:54
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 11:57 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:

> The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one brand
> that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on eBay
> now:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...

That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

Doesn't have canti BO's.

Roberts, if you wanted to spend more than your stated $400, might
still build "anything" as they did in days of yore.

> Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.

Yup, they made frames with cantis and BO's everywhere. And still (BTW,
eye candy follows) do:

http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_king_mercia.asp

Holdsworth also. My old Super Mistral, similar to the Roberts Club,
was not the equal in metal work to the Roberts, but rode (rides, still
have that one) very well, had nice paint when new <g >.

Bob Jackson, another "real custom" builder.

So, some names to look for. Trek is good, I had one of their early
ones, too.

Canti brake compatibility with changing between 27"/700c wheel sizes
might be an issue; no personal experience but you might google here
for info as I do remember some rbt discussion on this topic. --D-y

Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:13:17
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

<dustoyevsky@mac.com > wrote in message
news:1181231334.377572.92250@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 6, 11:57 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one
brand
> > that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on
eBay
> > now:
> >
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...
>
> That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
> but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.
>

"understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any color
you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)

We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was importing
the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of any
European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and geometry
was always "spot on" too.

> Doesn't have canti BO's.

That was the only one currently on eBay. The OP seemed to indicate that
they were looking for an older frame.

>
> Roberts, if you wanted to spend more than your stated $400, might
> still build "anything" as they did in days of yore.
>
> > Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.
>
> Yup, they made frames with cantis and BO's everywhere. And still (BTW,
> eye candy follows) do:
>
> http://www.merciancycles.com/frame_king_mercia.asp
>
> Holdsworth also. My old Super Mistral, similar to the Roberts Club,
> was not the equal in metal work to the Roberts, but rode (rides, still
> have that one) very well, had nice paint when new <g>.
>
> Bob Jackson, another "real custom" builder.

I didn't mention Bob Jackson because the brazing and alignment on some of
them was terrible. They had some of the nicest paint jobs from that era.
New BJs seem to be much better made. I've had my eye on one at a LBS for a
while.

>
> So, some names to look for. Trek is good, I had one of their early
> ones, too.
>
> Canti brake compatibility with changing between 27"/700c wheel sizes
> might be an issue; no personal experience but you might google here
> for info as I do remember some rbt discussion on this topic. --D-y
>

Chas.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 16:00:27
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

>> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>> The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one
> brand
>>> that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on
> eBay now:

> <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...
>> That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
>> but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.

* * Chas wrote:
> "understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any color
> you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)
> We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was importing
> the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of any
> European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and geometry
> was always "spot on" too.

That would be Cycle Imports, Cornish ME

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:37:06
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:136gsfmfb452jd0@corp.supernews.com...
> >> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>> The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one
> > brand
> >>> that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on
> > eBay now:
>
> > <dustoyevsky@mac.com> wrote:
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%...
> >> That looks like my old Roberts Club. Nice bike, kind of understated
> >> but complete "detail work" on lugs, DO's.
>
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "understated" is and understatement. At one point you could have any
color
> > you wanted - as long as it was BRG (British Racing Green). ;-)
> > We used to sell them. We got them from someone in Maine who was
importing
> > the frames. They had some of the best quality lug work and brazing of
any
> > European frame available in the 1970s. The frame alignment and
geometry
> > was always "spot on" too.
>
> That would be Cycle Imports, Cornish ME
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi

Yes, they were nice folks to do business with.

Chas.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 09:33:04
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:

> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
>> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>>> with 650b tires.
>>
>> Who?
>
> Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
> http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>
> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html
>
> -tom

Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).

Date: 07 Jun 2007 07:49:44
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Gary Young" <garyyoung3@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:DvWdnUbcf-i9ivXbnZ2dnUVZ_qLinZ2d@giganews.com...
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14 -0700, Tom Nakashima wrote:
>
>> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>> news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
>>> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>>>> with 650b tires.
>>>
>>> Who?
>>
>> Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
>> http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html
>>
>> http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html
>>
>> -tom
>
> Those are 559mm wheels, not 650B (=584mm).

Yes I was aware of that, but thought his thread was leaning against
touring on smaller wheels other than 700c or 27".
But one other thing that you probably already know is 584mm/650B
is known as 26 x 1 1/2 and is very common in France for touring bikes.
-tom

Date: 06 Jun 2007 20:34:00
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 8:31 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGin...@comcast.com>,
> "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
> > There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> > with650btires.
>
> Who?

Dear Tim,

In 1892, Wilbur Wright paid $80 for a used Eagle bicycle:

http://www.first-to-fly.com/History/Just%20the%20Facts/wright_bicycles.htm

The used Eagle was probably the 1887 model:

http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com/Bike5a.html

While the Eagle's front wheel is perhaps a trife smaller than 650b,
the principle is the same.

A year later in 1888, Thomas Humber clearly had a 650b front tire in
mind:

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10218272&wwwflag=2&imagepos=23

By 1893/4, the Elliott Co. had seen that the future for women's racing
bicycles lay in small 650b-style front tires, carbon-based frames, and
low-count carbon-based racing spokes:

http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com/Bike27a.html

The 650b on front is clearly the wave of the future!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 06 Jun 2007 19:10:31
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > these features?
>
> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > Jesse
>
> Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
> only.

Made in Waterford, by Waterford Precision Cycles, with TIG welded
joints: <http://www.gunnarbikes.com/crosshairs.php >.

Heck, this is tempting me to buy an upright!

TIG welded with the Waterford name: <http://www.waterfordbikes.com/
site/tech/os2.php >.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Date: 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 +0000, Pilgrim wrote:
>> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
>> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
>> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
>> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
>> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
>> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
>> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
>> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
>> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
>> > these features?
>>
>> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem
>> > to be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
>> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>>
>> > Jesse
>>
>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
>>
>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring bikes.
>
> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
> town.
>
> Doug

You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding tire
if going on an extended tour.

My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will soon
become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and the
breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:

>> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
>>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
>>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
>>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
>>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
>>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
>>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.

>>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>>> bikes.

>> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
>> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
>> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
>> town.

> You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
> bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
> couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
> tire if going on an extended tour.

> My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
> couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
> soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and
> the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.

I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

Matt O.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:33:02
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:

[snip]

>I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
>ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
>formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
>department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.
>
>Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Good grief, I'm out of touch!

I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor
27-inch tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but
where were the 27-inch tires?

Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?

http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg

Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell
with crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face
in boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they
sell now is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

Ominously, as the picture shows, I couldn't find a 27-inch Slime tube
and settled for posing a 26-inch box that lists all the sizes. Either
they've stopped selling 27-inch Slime tubes, or else they sell that
size so fast that they can't keep the tubes in stock.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 09 Jun 2007 17:36:38
From: Matt O'Toole
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 22:33:02 -0600, carlfogel wrote:

> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
> <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
>>years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
>>participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
>>tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
>>with 26" MTB-size wheels.
>>
>>Matt O.
>
> Dear Matt,
>
> Good grief, I'm out of touch!
>
> I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
> tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
> the 27-inch tires?
>
> Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?
>
> http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg
>
> Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
> crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
> boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
> is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.

I'm surprised that wire beaded tires have lasted this long. I've always
wondered when they'd finally disappear. It has to be cheaper to ship and
store folded tires. Kevlar beads may cost a few pennies more than steel
wire, but I'm sure this is moot compared to the other costs.

Back to the touring issue -- I wouldn't worry about it. I ride thousands
of miles a year without tire mishaps, so why should it be any different on
a tour? The chances of having a major tire problem seem pretty small.
As long as I have the usual patches, a spare tube, and some
emergency booting material, I'd be confident I could go anywhere.

Matt O.

Date: 09 Jun 2007 16:31:00
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 17:36:38 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 22:33:02 -0600, carlfogel wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
>> <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
>>>years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
>>>participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find
>>>tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're better off
>>>with 26" MTB-size wheels.
>>>
>>>Matt O.
>>
>> Dear Matt,
>>
>> Good grief, I'm out of touch!
>>
>> I stopped by WalMart this evening to check that they still favor 27-inch
>> tires over 700c. Sure enough, there were 27-inch tubes, but where were
>> the 27-inch tires?
>>
>> Come to think of it, where were _any_ tires?
>>
>> http://i17.tinypic.com/4koyav4.jpg
>>
>> Since the last time that I paid attention, WalMart has said to hell with
>> crummy wire-bead tires. The tires were right in front of my face in
>> boxes not much bigger than the tube boxes--everything that they sell now
>> is Kevlar belt and folding-bead.
>
>I'm surprised that wire beaded tires have lasted this long. I've always
>wondered when they'd finally disappear. It has to be cheaper to ship and
>store folded tires. Kevlar beads may cost a few pennies more than steel
>wire, but I'm sure this is moot compared to the other costs.

[snip]

>Matt O.

Dear Matt,

Sorry, my mistake.

As Gary Young pointed out, these damn tires are still wire-bead.

The box boasts about a Kevlar belt, and I mistakenly assumed that they
also had a wire bead because they're rolled up. Reading the small
print on the back of the box the next day showed that they have
carbon-steel beads, confirmed by a magnet.

I suppose that the roll-up saves on shipping space and material. It's
not quite as tight as the roll-up for real Kevlar bead tires.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:34:38
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Matt O'Toole" <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote in message
news:pan.2007.06.07.18.20.41.214400@letterboxes.org...
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
>
> >> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made
with
> >>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C.
That
> >>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720
of
> >>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
> >>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
> >>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
> >>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
>
> >>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
> >>> bikes.
>
> >> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in
a
> >> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
> >> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
> >> town.
>
> > You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
> > bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with
a
> > couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
> > tire if going on an extended tour.
>
> > My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
> > couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
> > soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit
and
> > the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.
>
> I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
years
> ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants
were
> formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware
and
> department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size
wheels.
>
> Matt O.

Back in the mid 70s we had a customer call us from Holbrook, AZ in a
panic. He was riding from NM to California and needed some replacement
tires. We put a couple of tires on a greyhound bus and got him on his way.

I don't remember what size they were but the point is there are many
places where you can't get ANY kind of bike tire so go with the most
readily available size.

Chas.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 15:15:32
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

In article <pan.2007.06.07.18.20.41.214400@letterboxes.org >,
Matt O'Toole <mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:

> I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
> years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
> participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to
> find tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're
> better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.

If I was going to do an around-the-world tour I'd do it on 26" wheels,
you can get tires in that size practically everywhere on the planet.
Might not be the best quality, but they'd keep you rolling.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 13:52:22
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
<mattotoole@letterboxes.org > wrote:

>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
>
>>> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with
>>>> 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That
>>>> was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of
>>>> that era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes
>>>> (using drop bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever
>>>> brakes are a different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires
>>>> available, but your choices are pretty meager.
>
>>>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>>>> bikes.
>
>>> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in a
>>> hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When you get
>>> home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the web if not in
>>> town.
>
>> You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels between
>> bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that I use with a
>> couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry a spare folding
>> tire if going on an extended tour.
>
>> My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do sell a
>> couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C tires will
>> soon become available on the Walmart, Target, hardware-store circuit and
>> the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade in importance.
>
>I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20 years
>ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's participants were
>formed) but not now. If you want to be able to find tires in hardware and
>department stores these days, you're better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.
>
>Matt O.

Dear Matt,

I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
and thorn-resistant) to go with them.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 07 Jun 2007 22:00:27
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

Dans le message de news:baog63h6c6au977kqgtarvjj5fdlg4ppu4@4ax.com,
carlfogel@comcast.net <carlfogel@comcast.net > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 14:20:42 -0400, Matt O'Toole
> <mattotoole@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:50:07 -0500, Gary Young wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29 +0000, doug.landau wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made
>>>>> with 27" wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to
>>>>> 700C. That was true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably
>>>>> true of the 720 of that era. It's fairly easy to convert old
>>>>> bikes with caliper brakes (using drop bolts or longer-reach
>>>>> brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a different matter.
>>>>> There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your choices
>>>>> are pretty meager.
>>
>>>>> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring
>>>>> bikes.
>>
>>>> But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires
>>>> in a hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop. When
>>>> you get home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the
>>>> web if not in town.
>>
>>> You have a point, but I like to be able to interchange wheels
>>> between bikes. For instance, I have a wheel with a hub dynamo that
>>> I use with a couple of bikes, including my touring bike. I'd carry
>>> a spare folding tire if going on an extended tour.
>>
>>> My local Walmart and Target don't carry 700C tires, but they do
>>> sell a couple of 700C road bikes. I'm hoping that means that 700C
>>> tires will soon become available on the Walmart, Target,
>>> hardware-store circuit and the breakdown-in-podunk factor will fade
>>> in importance.
>>
>> I doubt you'd find too many 27" tires around anymore. You could 20
>> years ago (when the sensibilities of many of this newsgroup's
>> participants were formed) but not now. If you want to be able to
>> find tires in hardware and department stores these days, you're
>> better off with 26" MTB-size wheels.
>>
>> Matt O.
>
> Dear Matt,
>
> I haven't looked at Target or KMart, but the three WalMarts in my neck
> of the woods all sell 27 & 1/4" tires and schrader-valve tubes (normal
> and thorn-resistant) to go with them.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Never too skinny ?

Date: 06 Jun 2007 21:14:29
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 5, 9:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse

After reading Sheldon's article about them, I'm starting to consider
the old fillet-brazed Schwinns. Not to sound like a poser, but I
really like the idea of an American built frame, especially a
handbuilt one. I guess if I'm being honest, this bike's as much a
fashion statement as it is transportation. But then, I live in San
Francisco, and half the kids here ride bikes with no brakes just to
look cool. A little "Made in America" sticker isn't too bad is it?

Anyhow, about the Schwinns; I don't see braze-ons for racks on any of
the ones on eBay, and they don't appear to have cantilever brakes.
Anyone know about tire/fender clearance on these bikes. is it possible
to braze on your own brake, pump, and rack fittings? I've done a
little brazing, so it seems doable.

Date: 08 Jun 2007 23:04:47
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Pilgrim" <bikepilgrim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1181164469.869864.266340@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 9:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > these features?
> >
> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
> >
> > Jesse
>
> After reading Sheldon's article about them, I'm starting to consider
> the old fillet-brazed Schwinns. Not to sound like a poser, but I
> really like the idea of an American built frame, especially a
> handbuilt one. I guess if I'm being honest, this bike's as much a
> fashion statement as it is transportation. But then, I live in San
> Francisco, and half the kids here ride bikes with no brakes just to
> look cool. A little "Made in America" sticker isn't too bad is it?
>
> Anyhow, about the Schwinns; I don't see braze-ons for racks on any of
> the ones on eBay, and they don't appear to have cantilever brakes.
> Anyone know about tire/fender clearance on these bikes. is it possible
> to braze on your own brake, pump, and rack fittings? I've done a
> little brazing, so it seems doable.
>

The old filet brazed Schwinns were 40 Lb. tanks made from very heavy wall
thickness tubing. There was probably 1/2 Lb. of brazing material on each
frame.

There were one or two models made with alloy steel and one made with
thinner wall thickness tubes; the rest were made from gas pipe.

One of the big problems with the old Schwinns was/is they used undersized
tubing and better quality components don't fit the seat and downtube
without modification. Another could be getting quality modern wheels to
fit.

Here's what could be a good deal on a Centurion lugged steel frame touring
bike from the late 70s or early 80s. It has good touring components from
the pre-index days and what looks to be a good frame. Tange #2 double
butted tubing was comparable to Reynolds 531 and Columbus SL tubes.

It appears that someone put on a cheap set of 27" bolt on wheels. That can
be easily fixed with some better wheels.

I have nothing to do with this auction, I just ran across it today and
thought it matched what you were looking for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/56-CM-Centurion-Chapion-2-PRO-TOUR-15-MENS-15-speed_W0QQitemZ260126041351QQihZ016QQcategoryZ98084QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

Chas.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 07:04:42
From: NickP
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

The problem with most old touring frames is that they have 1" top tube and
1-1/8" down tube, and they get a bit whippy when loaded front and rear for
cycle camping.

The Surly LHT I bought last year has larger diameter top and down tubes, and
has a lot less frame flex when loaded up than my old c. 1982 lugged 531
touring frame.

Nick

"Pilgrim" <bikepilgrim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1181105968.484359.239750@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?

Date: 06 Jun 2007 20:26:29
From:
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 10:19 am, Gary Young <garyyou...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 +0000, Pilgrim wrote:
> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > these features?
>
> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > Jesse
>
> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with 27"
> wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That was
> true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of that
> era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes (using drop
> bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a
> different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your
> choices are pretty meager.
>
> I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring bikes.

But 27" is what you want for touring. You can buy 27"x1-1/4 tires in
a hardware store in a town that does not have a bike shop.
When you get home, you still have enough tire and rim choices on the
web if not in town.

Doug

Date: 06 Jun 2007 17:43:08
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

do an internet search for retirement communites with good weather,
then bike shops and flea market websites.
the big deal is the frame should fit your lengths so if you fit the
standard sports-tourer from japanese designers
those areas will yield a quality frame for $100.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 11:47:59
From: patrick mitchel
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

I second the specialized expedition (early to mid 80's version, not the
current hybrid) Lugged frame - bosses galore 3 wb brackets, relaxed
geometry, 700c rims. The 2nd one I've had after the first was used as the
getaway vehicle when my apt was burglarized. I find myself using the
bridgestone x03 as my primary beast of burden- for some reason it fits me a
skoash better. Was sniffing around a kuwahara but couldnt make the
connection before the widow sold the dead hubbies bike. Ditto for the
bianchi that I dismissed because it was a size or so too small despite the
thing being full kit touring bike. How bout the bridgestone rb series?
Pat

Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:20:28
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"patrick mitchel" <patm317@lafn.org > wrote in message
news:f46vh6$o0j$1@zook.lafn.org...
>I second the specialized expedition (early to mid 80's version, not the
>current hybrid) Lugged frame - bosses galore 3 wb brackets, relaxed
>geometry, 700c rims. The 2nd one I've had after the first was used as the
>getaway vehicle when my apt was burglarized. I find myself using the
>bridgestone x03 as my primary beast of burden- for some reason it fits me a
>skoash better. Was sniffing around a kuwahara but couldnt make the
>connection before the widow sold the dead hubbies bike. Ditto for the
>bianchi that I dismissed because it was a size or so too small despite the
>thing being full kit touring bike. How bout the bridgestone rb series?
> Pat

Yes, the Bridgestone RB-T, the "T" stands for touring btw, and they had
the cantilever brakes. I believe they came out in 1991 and were short lived.

If you ever have or had the chance to ride a long steel wheelbase bike,
they're very comfortable and stable. Besides the Specialized Expedition,
here are some of the higher end models of Touring Bikes of the 80's and 90's
that can be found at a reasonable price. Upgrades are inexpensive and easy
to do.

These are not my bikes, just ones I've found on the web:

Bridgestone RB-T
http://static.flickr.com/34/71309272_d5c04fb353.jpg

Miyata also put out a Miyata 1000 back in 1981:
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~rpinder/images/miyata1.jpg

Trek 720 Touring:
http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/WayneB720/Trek720_511.jpg

-tom

Date: 06 Jun 2007 10:38:53
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:19:37
From: Gary Young
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 +0000, Pilgrim wrote:

> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse

I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with 27"
wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That was
true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of that
era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes (using drop
bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a
different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your
choices are pretty meager.

I'd expand your search to include Miyata and Koga-Miyata touring bikes.

Date: 07 Jun 2007 20:06:05
From: John Thompson
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On 2007-06-06, Gary Young <garyyoung3@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 +0000, Pilgrim wrote:
>
>> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
>> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
>> frames, or know of any similar ones?

> I'd watch out for wheel size. Touring bikes were still being made with 27"
> wheels long after other road bikes had switched over to 700C. That was
> true of my mid-80s lugged Trek 520 and probably true of the 720 of that
> era. It's fairly easy to convert old bikes with caliper brakes (using drop
> bolts or longer-reach brakes), but I believe cantilever brakes are a
> different matter. There are still 27" rims and tires available, but your
> choices are pretty meager.

Early 80s Trek touring bikes did come with 27" wheels. My 720 has 27"
wheels with cantilever brakes. I did test 700C wheels in it, and it is
possible to angle the pads to reach the rims, even with MAFAC
cantilevers. Later Shimano and Gran Compe cantilevers had some vertical
adjustment that would make it even easier.

--

John (john@os2.dhs.org)

Date: 06 Jun 2007 09:57:36
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Pilgrim" <bikepilgrim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1181105968.484359.239750@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse
>

There are a lot of frame builders who can make you a frame like you are
looking for - 72° head and seat tube angles, long chainstays, long fork
rake and all of the braze-ons for racks, fenders and so on.

You're probably looking for a very stable, smooth riding bike that you can
take both hands off the bars when your carrying a load of bags on and not
worry about running off the road.

The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one brand
that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on eBay
now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150128988236&rd=1&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.

There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike with
650b tires. The problem with those tire is availability. When you are in
the middle of Podunk, Kansas and you need a tire you are SOL.

Chas.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 22:32:33
From: BobT
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote in message
news:3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> The British made a lot of custom frames like this. Roberts is one brand
> that comes to mind that meets all of your requirements. There's on eBay
> now:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150128988236&rd=1&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
>
> Mercian is another classic British builder to look for.
>
> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike with
> 650b tires. The problem with those tire is availability. When you are in
> the middle of Podunk, Kansas and you need a tire you are SOL.
>
Also Bob Jackson. Note the 26" inch wheels

http://roberttayloronline.com/Photos/Details.aspx?AlbumID=20&Page=0

BobT

Date: 06 Jun 2007 21:31:15
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com >,
"* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com > wrote:

> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
> with 650b tires.

Who?

Date: 07 Jun 2007 06:57:14
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-72BE16.21311506062007@news.iphouse.com...
> In article <3eednU76DJKSevvbnZ2dnUVZ_vGinZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "* * Chas" <verktygjunk@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>> There are some folks in this NG who will recommend going with a bike
>> with 650b tires.
>
> Who?

Bruce Gordon makes two of the finest touring 26" wheel bikes:
http://www.bgcycles.com/rnr_zoom2.html

http://www.bgcycles.com/blt_zoom2.html

-tom

Date: 06 Jun 2007 15:36:39
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

> Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
> extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.

Should I clarify that I'm looking for a sub $400 frame too?

Date: 06 Jun 2007 16:30:31
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:36:39 -0000, Pilgrim <bikepilgrim@gmail.com >
wrote:

>> Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
>> extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.
>
>Should I clarify that I'm looking for a sub $400 frame too?
>

Trek 520 is a good choice, the '80's & 90's will run under $200 or so,
the later framesets will run $275-400. If you find a 2000 and up frame
only, sometimes you can get a matching colored Trek fork for around
$75-80, new from Trek.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 15:35:02
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 5, 11:27 pm, Troll Report <tro...@eport.net > wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 -0000, Pilgrim wrote:
> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > these features?
>
> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > Jesse
>
> I'd go with a bridgestone, sheldons site has a bunch of old catalogs that
> describe all the models. They show up for sale (craigslist,etc) enough so
> you could find whatever model appeals, too.

I have looked into bridgestones. Does anyone know if the MBs have the
needed braze ons? I'd imagine their wheel clearance is fine, but what
about the bottome bracket height and angles? The XOs are probably
better for that, but they seem to be kinda collectible. Thanks!

Date: 10 Jun 2007 03:13:02
From: mark
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

Pilgrim wrote:
> I have looked into bridgestones. Does anyone know if the MBs have the
> needed braze ons? I'd imagine their wheel clearance is fine, but what
> about the bottome bracket height and angles? The XOs are probably
> better for that, but they seem to be kinda collectible. Thanks!

My '93 MB-3 frame has braze-ons for rear rack, fenders and 2 water
bottle cages. I've built it into an excellent winter commuter/town bike
with studded tires and a hub generator, and I'm looking forward to
taking it out on the dirt this summer with knobbies and without the
fenders and lights. I'm not sure how well it would work for touring
though, the chainstays seem a bit short to carry rear panniers.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 10:04:28
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Pilgrim" <bikepilgrim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1181144102.498504.293410@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 11:27 pm, Troll Report <tro...@eport.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 -0000, Pilgrim wrote:
> > > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided
against
> > > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes
for
> > > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > > these features?
> >
> > > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem
to
> > > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > > frames, or know of any similar ones?
> >
> > > Jesse
> >
> > I'd go with a bridgestone, sheldons site has a bunch of old catalogs
that
> > describe all the models. They show up for sale (craigslist,etc)
enough so
> > you could find whatever model appeals, too.
>
> I have looked into bridgestones. Does anyone know if the MBs have the
> needed braze ons? I'd imagine their wheel clearance is fine, but what
> about the bottome bracket height and angles? The XOs are probably
> better for that, but they seem to be kinda collectible. Thanks!
>

All of the Bridgestone MBs are mountain bikes with 26" wheels AFAIK. I'd
suggest a bike with 700c wheels for touring.

Chas.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 15:31:29
From: Pilgrim
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

> remember that lugs today are for looks only.

I said I was looking for an old frame, and yes looks are all that I
hope to get out of them... well that and hopefully they'll keep the
bike together ;-)

Date: 06 Jun 2007 08:22:50
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

"Pilgrim" <bikepilgrim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1181105968.484359.239750@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse
>

The bike I commute to work with is an older 1983 Specialized Expedition that
I turned into a retro cruiser. It has a long wheelbase and is very stable.
Enough for 3 water bottle cages, cantilever brakes, and will accept wide
tires, however I'm using the Avocets 25s. Can put on racks both front and
rear, but I like my Carradice Nelson. I actually picked up the whole bike
for $100.oo. at a garage sale and added my own personal touches.
http://home.comcast.net/~tomnak/tom2work.JPG

-tom

Date: 06 Jun 2007 14:14:23
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

Against the wind: Books: Marty Basch

http://www.memorylane-classics.com/images/Bikes/Schwinn%20Black%20Phantom.JPG

Marty meets a retiree on a Schwinn trekking across Canada

Date: 06 Jun 2007 13:48:06
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 8:33 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 6:42 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 6, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > > > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > > > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > > > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > > > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > > > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > > > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > > > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > > > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > > > these features?
>
> > > > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > > > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > > > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > > > Jesse
>
> > > Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
> > > only.
>
> > So are "nice" welds v. rough but fully functional welds. And nice
> > paint v. powder coat. Etc.
>
> 'Nice' welds imply a good welder, as does nice paint jobs. Nothing
> wrong with Powdercoat, BTW-durable, easily clearcoated, looks like wet
> paint in lots of cases.
> Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
> extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.-

None of my last comment was aimed at Waterford; they do great work
IMO.

I was merely pointing out that whilst lugs may be largely cosmetic,
given modern steels and techniques, so are some aspects of welding,
painting etc.

(IME, powdercoating, however durable, always looks thick around the
details of the frame. This is less of an issue with welded or fillet
brazed frames than it is with lugged frames, IMO. YMMV.)

Date: 06 Jun 2007 06:33:45
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 6:42 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > > these features?
>
> > > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > > Jesse
>
> > Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
> > only.
>
> So are "nice" welds v. rough but fully functional welds. And nice
> paint v. powder coat. Etc.

'Nice' welds imply a good welder, as does nice paint jobs. Nothing
wrong with Powdercoat, BTW-durable, easily clearcoated, looks like wet
paint in lots of cases.
Waterford frames are made to order, size wise and also with all the
extras somebody may want for a loaded tourer.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 12:42:02
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 6, 7:37 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> > looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> > it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> > making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> > frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> > frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> > angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> > fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> > pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> > these features?
>
> > The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> > be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> > frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> > Jesse
>
> Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
> only.

So are "nice" welds v. rough but fully functional welds. And nice
paint v. powder coat. Etc.

Date: 06 Jun 2007 05:37:05
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Jun 5, 10:59 pm, Pilgrim <bikepilg...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse

Waterford can make you one but remember that lugs today are for looks
only.

Date: 05 Jun 2007 22:27:01
From: Troll Report
Subject: Re: Classic Touring Frames

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:59:28 -0000, Pilgrim wrote:

> I'm planning to build a retro touring/cyclocross bike. I was earlier
> looking into the Surly "Long Haul Trucker" frame, but decided against
> it. It's a great frame, but I've come to realize that they've been
> making frames like it for decades, and I'd rather build up an old
> frame. Also, they are kind of plain. I'm looking for a lugged steel
> frame, with long chainstays, a long wheelbase, laidback touring
> angles, clearance for wide tires and fenders, braze-ons and holes for
> fenders, front and rear racks, cantilever brakes, downtube shifters,
> pump, and bottle cages. What popular bikes in the past have rocked
> these features?
>
> The early Treks have really got my attention. The 610, and 720 seem to
> be really solid frames. Does anyone have any opinions about these
> frames, or know of any similar ones?
>
> Jesse

I'd go with a bridgestone, sheldons site has a bunch of old catalogs that
describe all the models. They show up for sale (craigslist,etc) enough so
you could find whatever model appeals, too.