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Date: 31 Aug 2007 09:03:02
From: Luke
Subject: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
conventional wisdom?
From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
effects of such a pattern?
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
this design?
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 06:46:47
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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Luke wrote:
> What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> conventional wisdom?
>
> From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> effects of such a pattern?
>
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
>
> I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
> this design?
don't you mean, what's the "engineering rationale" for this design? if
that is your question, the answers are simple:
1. radial lacing helps the drive side bracing angle very slightly, and
thus spoke tension differential.
2. the hub is stiff enough to transmit torque to the nds spokes.
contrary to what you might read when considering these issues, the old
days of 5 speed freewheels and even flange spacing are over. as are the
days of pencil-thin hub bodies that cannot transmit torque.
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 10:22:11
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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In article <0P2dnYaKNfjVjUHbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net >, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Luke wrote:
> > What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> > conventional wisdom?
> >
> > From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> > drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> > effects of such a pattern?
> >
> > http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
> >
> > I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
> > this design?
>
> don't you mean, what's the "engineering rationale" for this design? if
> that is your question, the answers are simple:
>
> 1. radial lacing helps the drive side bracing angle very slightly, and
> thus spoke tension differential.
> 2. the hub is stiff enough to transmit torque to the nds spokes.
>
> contrary to what you might read when considering these issues, the old
> days of 5 speed freewheels and even flange spacing are over. as are the
> days of pencil-thin hub bodies that cannot transmit torque.
So the engineering rationale behind this design necessitates a heavier
more robust hub design than a typical 2 or 3X DS lacing pattern. And
also relegate transmission of torque to the less efficient route, to
the slacker NDS spokes of the wheel.
Racing wheels place a premium on stiffness and lightweight: if the
engineering of the design requires extra mass compared to competing
schemes, and transmission of power is less efficient then it could be,
then guess what? you've a poorly designed product, its engineering
notwithstanding.
And I did mean what's the marketing ploy for this design.
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 07:42:15
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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Luke wrote:
> In article <0P2dnYaKNfjVjUHbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net>, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Luke wrote:
>>> What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
>>> conventional wisdom?
>>>
>>> From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
>>> drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
>>> effects of such a pattern?
>>>
>>> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
>>>
>>> I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
>>> this design?
>> don't you mean, what's the "engineering rationale" for this design? if
>> that is your question, the answers are simple:
>>
>> 1. radial lacing helps the drive side bracing angle very slightly, and
>> thus spoke tension differential.
>> 2. the hub is stiff enough to transmit torque to the nds spokes.
>>
>> contrary to what you might read when considering these issues, the old
>> days of 5 speed freewheels and even flange spacing are over. as are the
>> days of pencil-thin hub bodies that cannot transmit torque.
>
> So the engineering rationale behind this design necessitates a heavier
> more robust hub design than a typical 2 or 3X DS lacing pattern. And
> also relegate transmission of torque to the less efficient route, to
> the slacker NDS spokes of the wheel.
whoa there cowboy - "efficiency" and "slackness" are not the same thing.
and tension is not a factor in elasticity.
>
> Racing wheels place a premium on stiffness
yes, that's why you want to address the issue about bracing angle.
> and lightweight:
if that was your objective, you'd have your panties in a bunch about
tubular tires/rims.
> if the
> engineering of the design requires extra mass compared to competing
> schemes, and transmission of power is less efficient then it could be,
> then guess what? you've a poorly designed product, its engineering
> notwithstanding.
>
> And I did mean what's the marketing ploy for this design.
you can use whatever makes you happiest. but understand what you're
looking at first.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 18:35:36
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Sep 1, 6:07 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu >
wrote:
> Luke wrote:
> > What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> > conventional wisdom?
>
> > From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> > drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> > effects of such a pattern?
>
> I head that some, if not all, of these wheels with radial right side,
> and crossed left side -- with a big 'ol left side flange as well,
> compared with a small right-side flange, --- at any rate, at least one
> of these wheels "just coincidentally" has all spokes the same length.
>
> Now, these wheels need a beefed-up shell, the presumed improved bracing
> angle can be gotten by lacing 2-cross with heads in, and the side which
> would benefit from a larger flange is not the one that has it. So, why
> do they do this? My bet is that they save inventory by only having to
> get one length of spokes, and they hype up the "advantages" rather than
> admit they are being cheap.
Bingo! Cheaper to make, easier to sell - it's a marketeer's dream!
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 19:07:12
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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Luke wrote:
> What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> conventional wisdom?
>
> From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> effects of such a pattern?
I head that some, if not all, of these wheels with radial right side,
and crossed left side -- with a big 'ol left side flange as well,
compared with a small right-side flange, --- at any rate, at least one
of these wheels "just coincidentally" has all spokes the same length.
Now, these wheels need a beefed-up shell, the presumed improved bracing
angle can be gotten by lacing 2-cross with heads in, and the side which
would benefit from a larger flange is not the one that has it. So, why
do they do this? My bet is that they save inventory by only having to
get one length of spokes, and they hype up the "advantages" rather than
admit they are being cheap.
--
David L. Johnson
The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 07:07:15
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Sep 1, 6:26 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> Yup. But the "3 flange hub shelters 1/3 of spokes from wind and
> simplifies load transfer"....
Doesn't shelter anything from the wind (tests poorly in wind tunnels),
but I guess it does "simplify load transfer"... whatever that means.
Why not have the spokes provide lateral stability and torque transfer
at the same time? But at least the center spokes on the back wheel do
*something*... on the front wheel they are only along for the ride
since there is no torque to speak of.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 07:00:53
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Sep 1, 5:13 am, Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Yes, but the wheel is being driven by the slacker side spokes. Maybe
> they can call it the Windup Wheel.
The left side flange is very large, so I don't think this would be an
issue.
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 05:54:40
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Aug 31, 7:03 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> conventional wisdom?
Like the marketeers say..'It's for selling"-doesn't have to make
sense, just gotta be different so the marketeers can make this claim
or that...
>
> From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> effects of such a pattern?
>
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
>
> I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
> this design?
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 04:13:20
From: Chris Nelson
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Sep 1, 2:00 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> It actually makes some sense. The drive side has radial spokes which
> allows the best possible bracing angle, and the hub body is strong
> enough to transfer torque to the left side... so no problem. It's a
> lower priced wheel, so they don't bother to hype it.
Yes, but the wheel is being driven by the slacker side spokes. Maybe
they can call it the Windup Wheel.
Chris
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Date: 03 Sep 2007 06:45:35
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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Chris Nelson wrote:
> On Sep 1, 2:00 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It actually makes some sense. The drive side has radial spokes which
>> allows the best possible bracing angle, and the hub body is strong
>> enough to transfer torque to the left side... so no problem. It's a
>> lower priced wheel, so they don't bother to hype it.
>
> Yes, but the wheel is being driven by the slacker side spokes.
that's not a problem - only in the jobstian world can tension be
mistakenly equated with strength.
> Maybe
> they can call it the Windup Wheel.
>
> Chris
>
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Date: 31 Aug 2007 23:00:06
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Aug 31, 7:03 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
> this design?
It actually makes some sense. The drive side has radial spokes which
allows the best possible bracing angle, and the hub body is strong
enough to transfer torque to the left side... so no problem. It's a
lower priced wheel, so they don't bother to hype it.
Look at the RD-600 if you want to see a stupid design...
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Date: 01 Sep 2007 08:26:15
From: Luke
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:00:06 -0700, Ron Ruff <rruffrruff@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>Look at the RD-600 if you want to see a stupid design...
Yup. But the "3 flange hub shelters 1/3 of spokes from wind and
simplifies load transfer"....
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Date: 31 Aug 2007 07:25:46
From: D'ohBoy
Subject: Re: Contrary patterns: drive, radial; non drive, 2x.
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On Aug 31, 8:03 am, Luke <lucasirag...@rogers.com > wrote:
> What is the rationale behind this spoke pattern - it's contrary to all
> conventional wisdom?
>
> From the photos (click to enlarge) FSA's RD-88 rear wheel is laced 0x
> drive side, 2x non-drive. Does the wheel's hub design mitigate the ill
> effects of such a pattern?
>
> http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=49&pid=739
>
> I don't see a sales pitch for the wheel. What's the marketing ploy for
> this design?
The ploy is to copy the ploy from Shimano and Mavic - Mavic calls it
'Isopulse lacing' - ooooohhhhhh!
D'ohBoy
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