Convert friction to indexing

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Date: 05 Aug 2007 19:01:13
From: Neal
Subject: Convert friction to indexing

I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five speed
freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older shimano
sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a longer
axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to be
increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear and I
think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
complicated and costly.

Neal

Date: 07 Aug 2007 12:09:05
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 6, 7:20 am, "HyperCube33 $Life2Death$"
<hypercube[11x3]@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1186355399.005190.48370@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
> > these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
> > them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to keep
> > the tolerances robust, myself.
> > Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big shop
> > - they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
> > the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
> > freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
> > done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
> > complete.
>
> > JG
>
> Just curious as to what kind of machine can do this - I may want one.
>
> -Brian

No machine..BB shell into a vice..measure rear end alignment to see
which way to 'pull'..add a wee bit to appropriate sides to make rear
end aligned and also the proper distance(126mm in this case)..making
sure dropouts are aligned as well. Not hard for any decent bike shop.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 09:30:57
From: JG
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 6, 8:49 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1186369306.242039.83560@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > SunRace appears to have two models, the 6/7 speed which presumably
> > means "ultra-6", and a 6speed - which is presumably a 5/6
> > "traditional" spacing... So you might need only to invest in 5/6 (I
> > saw it for $13.95!), and a Shimano derailleur...
> > If you have to get your frame spread and get a new hub, might as well
> > bite the bullet and go for 130mm...
>
> > JG
>
> The SunRace freewheels that I tried are GARBAGE - both in the freewheel
> mechanism and sprockets.
>
> Check my other post above - try to get a Suntour 6 speed Ultra freewheel
> on eBay. I've seen lots of them.
>
> I've made this conversion on several of my older bikes but I've found that
> the newer chains and derailleurs plus the tooth design on the Ultra
> freewheels may make index shifting unnecessary.
>
> Chas.

Yes, but the post is about the shifters...

JG

Date: 06 Aug 2007 15:20:51
From:
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 6, 10:03 am, JG <j...@cox.net > wrote:
> On Aug 6, 6:20 am, "HyperCube33 $Life2Death$"
>
>
>
> <hypercube[11x3]@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:1186355399.005190.48370@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > >I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
> > > these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
> > > them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to keep
> > > the tolerances robust, myself.
> > > Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big shop
> > > - they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
> > > the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
> > > freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
> > > done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
> > > complete.
>
> > > JG
>
> > Just curious as to what kind of machine can do this - I may want one.
>
> > -Brian
>
> I'm not real sure. It was a form of screw jack that clamped on to the
> dropouts and slowly spread them. I assume it's widely available?

You don't need a machine to re-space a steel frame. I've done it
using 2x4 wood pieces as levers. You can see Sheldon's version of
this at http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html about 2/3 down
the page.

I didn't use Sheldon's exact method. I used a different arrangement,
putting blocks on the inside faces of the two dropouts and putting two
2x4 levers between the blocks, then spreading the levers. (The levers
made sort of a V shape that I widened.) I think my method is more
likely to preserve left-right symmetry, since the force on the two
dropouts is naturally pretty equal. In any case, use the string test
(shown by Sheldon) to check alignment afterward.

Also be sure to re-align the dropouts so they're parallel and in
line. To replicate the dropout alignment tool in
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=40, I just used two
bolts of suitable diameter and length; diameter about 3/8", length
about 4". I used nuts and washers to snug each bolt into each
dropout, long ends pointing inward. It was kind of like installing a
naked axle, then cutting it in two.

Anyway, I used an adjustable wrench to tweak the dropouts until the
bolts pointed accurately toward one another, much like in that Park
Tool page.

The whole process was pretty easy. The hardest part was holding four
pieces of lumber in the proper positions to do the levering, because
it is a process requiring multiple trials. But that was just a minor
juggling problem.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 Aug 2007 07:03:33
From: JG
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 6, 6:20 am, "HyperCube33 $Life2Death$"
<hypercube[11x3]@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1186355399.005190.48370@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
> > these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
> > them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to keep
> > the tolerances robust, myself.
> > Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big shop
> > - they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
> > the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
> > freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
> > done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
> > complete.
>
> > JG
>
> Just curious as to what kind of machine can do this - I may want one.
>
> -Brian

I'm not real sure. It was a form of screw jack that clamped on to the
dropouts and slowly spread them. I assume it's widely available?

JG

Date: 06 Aug 2007 08:29:02
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

"JG" <jchg@cox.net > wrote in message
news:1186409013.502729.27470@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 6, 6:20 am, "HyperCube33 $Life2Death$"
> <hypercube[11x3]@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "JG" <j...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1186355399.005190.48370@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
> > > these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
> > > them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to
keep
> > > the tolerances robust, myself.
> > > Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big
shop
> > > - they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
> > > the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
> > > freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
> > > done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
> > > complete.
> >
> > > JG
> >
> > Just curious as to what kind of machine can do this - I may want one.
> >
> > -Brian
>
> I'm not real sure. It was a form of screw jack that clamped on to the
> dropouts and slowly spread them. I assume it's widely available?
>
> JG
>

The machine is called "Bruno - the big guy in the corner".... ;-)

There are several tools made for spreading the rear triangle but I've
never seen one in a Bike shop any where. Here's a link to the one made by
Hozan:

http://www.hozan.co.jp/cycle_e/catalog/freame/C-451.htm

The problem is that most shops just spread the rear triangle manually (and
maybe align the rear dropout). The rear triangle on many bikes was never
properly aligned when the frame was built and spreading it can compound
the problem causing the bike to handle squirrelly plus it can put excess
forces on the rear axle.

You can still find narrow 6 speed freewheels on eBay that will fit on a 5
speed wheel without alteration (most of the time). Look for Suntour Ultra
freewheels, Shimano and Sachs made some too.

You will also need to find an old set of Suntour 6, 7 or 8 speed down tube
index shift levers. Don't worry about the 7 & 8 speed index positions, the
derailleur stop adjustment screw will take care of that. You may only be
able to get a set of these to fit braze-on shift lever bosses so you'll
have to find down tube clamp that they will fit on.

Next you'll need to get a 6, 7 or 8 speed indexable rear derailleur. These
have a top pulley that floats a little from side to side. A Shimano
derailluer will probably be easier to find.

Lastly, replace the shift cable and get a new 7-8-9 speed chain.

Chas.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 12:17:53
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 5, 5:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five speed
> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older shimano
> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a longer
> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to be
> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear and I
> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
> complicated and costly.
>
> Neal

Many new shimano, Falcon and other 6/7s freewheels that are index
compatible. I think the toughest part is finding a 6/7/8s shifter set.
BUT if you find a 6s shifter set, use a index type rder, apropriate
chain, it will work fine. You may have enough axle to get the 6s on
the rear hub but if you don't, a slight cold set and a slighly longer
axle will get you going.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 08:32:10
From: HyperCube33 $Life2Death$
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

"Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote in
message news:1186402673.721664.201740@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 5:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five
>> speed
>> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older
>> shimano
>> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a
>> longer
>> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to
>> be
>> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear
>> and I
>> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
>> complicated and costly.
>>
>> Neal
>
> Many new shimano, Falcon and other 6/7s freewheels that are index
> compatible. I think the toughest part is finding a 6/7/8s shifter set.
> BUT if you find a 6s shifter set, use a index type rder, apropriate
> chain, it will work fine. You may have enough axle to get the 6s on
> the rear hub but if you don't, a slight cold set and a slighly longer
> axle will get you going.
>

On the scary note I have a huffy sitting next to me with indexed 6 speed.
Not sure of the rear spacing and if it's a cassette or not.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 00:33:38
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

Neal wrote:
> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five
> speed freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an
> older shimano sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters?
> Will I need a longer axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing
> will probably have to be increased too. I can no longer hear if the
> bike is completely in gear and I think the indexing might help but I
> don't want this project to get to complicated and costly.

Spreading to 126, if the bike is steel, is no problem. The only costs
will be for the freewheel and shifters, and axle. I don't think you
will need a new derailleur -- try the old one first, at least.

You can get the frame "cold set" to the wider spacing. If you are
daring, you can do it yourself. Sheldon Brown's website explains how
(no personal experience with that, but you can't do worse than the
"professional" cold set I had done on my old bike). But for 6mm, I
would just jam the larger wheel in there and go.

You will have to re-dish the wheel so the rim is centered between the
dropouts, and of course you will need a longer axle and extra spacers.

With 126, this should work OK. BTW, 126 may be wide enough for 7-speed.
There were a few 120mm 6-speed freewheels, but those will be very hard
to find now, I would imagine. If you can get one, you can skip all this
stuff about cold setting or spreading the frame, and you might not have
to even re-dish the wheel.

When I had my bike re-spaced, it was to 130mm, for 8-speed. 8-speed
freewheels on my old hubs/axles were a real problem. I broke several
axles before I gave up and went to a cassette hub. You may have
axle-breaking problems even at 126mm, if you are talking touring.

--

David L. Johnson

I believe that the motion picture is destined to revolutionize our
educational system and that in a few years it will supplant largely,
if not entirely, the use of textbooks
-- Thomas Edison, 1922

Date: 05 Aug 2007 20:01:46
From: JG
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

SunRace appears to have two models, the 6/7 speed which presumably
means "ultra-6", and a 6speed - which is presumably a 5/6
"traditional" spacing... So you might need only to invest in 5/6 (I
saw it for $13.95!), and a Shimano derailleur...
If you have to get your frame spread and get a new hub, might as well
bite the bullet and go for 130mm...

JG

Date: 06 Aug 2007 08:49:16
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

"JG" <jchg@cox.net > wrote in message
news:1186369306.242039.83560@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> SunRace appears to have two models, the 6/7 speed which presumably
> means "ultra-6", and a 6speed - which is presumably a 5/6
> "traditional" spacing... So you might need only to invest in 5/6 (I
> saw it for $13.95!), and a Shimano derailleur...
> If you have to get your frame spread and get a new hub, might as well
> bite the bullet and go for 130mm...
>
> JG
>

The SunRace freewheels that I tried are GARBAGE - both in the freewheel
mechanism and sprockets.

Check my other post above - try to get a Suntour 6 speed Ultra freewheel
on eBay. I've seen lots of them.

I've made this conversion on several of my older bikes but I've found that
the newer chains and derailleurs plus the tooth design on the Ultra
freewheels may make index shifting unnecessary.

Chas.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 19:35:44
From: Sir Ridesalot
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five speed
> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older shimano
> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a longer
> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to be
> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear and I
> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
> complicated and costly.
>
> Neal

Hi again.

Harris has Shimano 6 speed freewheels for $19.95 so they are
available.
>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#6<

A 6 speed SRAM PC-58 chain is listed there for $18.95. >http://
sheldonbrown.com/harris/chains.html<

A Shimano rear derailleur starts at $18.95 for a Tourney mega-range.
>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers-rear.html#shimano<

I noticed looking there that you will have to spread the frame by 6mm
= 3mm per side. I was thinking of the narrow Ultra 6 freewheel in my
previous post.

So it looks like your total cost would be in the neighbourhood of
approximately $60 not counting the shifters.

Harris has indexed SunRace 6 speed clamp on downtube shifters that are
compatible with Shimano and can be used with braze-on mounts. They are
$22.95
>http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=LD1242<

So, if you buy everything new at prices comparable to Harris you are
looking at about $80 total.

Cheers from Peter

Date: 05 Aug 2007 23:58:38
From: Neal
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

"Sir Ridesalot" <i_am_cycle_pathic@yahoo.ca > wrote in message
news:1186367744.238703.150590@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five
>> speed
>> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older
>> shimano
>> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a
>> longer
>> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to
>> be
>> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear
>> and I
>> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
>> complicated and costly.
>>
>> Neal
>
>
> Hi again.
>
> Harris has Shimano 6 speed freewheels for $19.95 so they are
> available.
>>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/freewheels.html#6<
>
> A 6 speed SRAM PC-58 chain is listed there for $18.95. >http://
> sheldonbrown.com/harris/chains.html<
>
> A Shimano rear derailleur starts at $18.95 for a Tourney mega-range.
>>http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers-rear.html#shimano<
>
> I noticed looking there that you will have to spread the frame by 6mm
> = 3mm per side. I was thinking of the narrow Ultra 6 freewheel in my
> previous post.
>
> So it looks like your total cost would be in the neighbourhood of
> approximately $60 not counting the shifters.
>
> Harris has indexed SunRace 6 speed clamp on downtube shifters that are
> compatible with Shimano and can be used with braze-on mounts. They are
> $22.95
>>http://harriscyclery.net/page.cfm?PageID=49&action=details&sku=LD1242<
>
> So, if you buy everything new at prices comparable to Harris you are
> looking at about $80 total.
>
> Cheers from Peter
>

Thanks, this is the information I was looking for. I've found some of the
parts on Ebay but I will check with Harris.

Date: 05 Aug 2007 19:12:39
From: Sir Ridesalot
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 5, 7:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five speed
> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older shimano
> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a longer
> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to be
> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear and I
> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
> complicated and costly.
>
> Neal

Hello Neal.

Are you looking for downtube index shifting to fit on braze-on mounts?

The easiest and least expensive conversion is to convert to 6 speed
index shifting.

Check your local bicycle shop to see if they have a set of Shimano 6
speed indexed downtube shifters either new or that were salvaged. You
will need a new 6 speed indexed freewheel and chain plus a rear road
derailleur as well. If you are lucky your bike shop may have an old
but functional Shimano SIS rear derialleur in their parts bin. I am
pretty sure that a new inexpensive Shimano Sora or Tiagra rear
derailleur will work with the 6 speed indexed shifters.

A 6 speed freewheel will fit your 120 mm spacing and should not need a
longer axle that what the 5 speed has. Thus you do not have to spread
the rear frame. The spacings between 6 speed cogs is narrower than
that between 5 speed cogs.

If your local bicycle shop does not have a pair of Shimano 6 speed
downtube index shifters I have a set of old but fully functional
Shimano Sport 6 speed index downtube braze-on mounted shifters you can
have. They can also be used in Friction mode too. Email me if you are
interested in them and I'll send them to you gratis.

Cheers from Peter

Date: 05 Aug 2007 18:38:08
From:
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

On Aug 5, 6:01 pm, "Neal" <N...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> I'm starting to ride my old touring bike again that is running a five speed
> freewheel with friction shifters. Is it possible to put on an older shimano
> sis 6 speed freewheel, derailier and indexed shifters? Will I need a longer
> axle and spacers? I know the 120mm frame spacing will probably have to be
> increased too. I can no longer hear if the bike is completely in gear and I
> think the indexing might help but I don't want this project to get to
> complicated and costly.
>
> Neal

You might look for some parts on ebay, but I question whether the old
touring bike is worth the money it would take to install indexed
shifting. Look for a 7s Hyperglide freewheel (which includes those
made by Sun Race), rear derailleur almost anything but pre'97 Dura
Ace, and some type of indexed shifters (assuming Shimano). You
probably want to avoid anything 6s because of the difficulty finding a
freewheel still in usable condition, although maybe someone does still
make them. Be patient, know what you want, and accumulate parts. As
someone else said you could get a lot of benefit from a newer
derailleur while trying to find the right shifters. See this site for
mix and match possibilities:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

You could find info on the Web about DIY respacing the rear dropouts,
because the cost of getting a pro job might be more than the total
cost of all the parts.

"Touring bike" can mean a lot of things. If the bike is a very high
quality old 531 frame most likely made in England it would be worth it
(yes, I know there were quality frames made in other places with other
tubing 35 years ago); otherwise, probably not, IMO, because you can
get something used for a couple hundred dollars that does what you
want with indexed shifting and proper spacing, and keep the old bike
as your occasional "retro" ride.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 00:36:38
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

Date: 05 Aug 2007 16:09:59
From: JG
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to keep
the tolerances robust, myself.
Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big shop
- they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
complete.

JG

Date: 06 Aug 2007 08:20:22
From: HyperCube33 $Life2Death$
Subject: Re: Convert friction to indexing

"JG" <jchg@cox.net > wrote in message
news:1186355399.005190.48370@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I don't think you can find anything less than 8 speeds in road format
> these days. First get some Shimano bar end controls - you can use
> them in friction mode before you get set up. I prefer 8 speed to keep
> the tolerances robust, myself.
> Get a compatible rear derailleur. Get the frame spread in a big shop
> - they should have a machine that keeps the pressure even and keeps
> the drop outs in plane. Then you will need a new wheel with a
> freehub and cassette and you are all set. Actually you can get this
> done in any order, you just won't have click shifting until it is
> complete.
>
> JG
>

Just curious as to what kind of machine can do this - I may want one.

-Brian