| |
Main
Date: 06 Jun 2007 14:34:34
From:
Subject: Earliest helmets?
|
http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/disp/race.gif&mod=&mak=Race_at_Revere_Beach,_MA
|
|
| |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net > wrote:
> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>
> Heh,
> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
> Was this a man versus machine race?
Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 23:58:23
From: Troll Report
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter wrote:
> On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>
>> Heh,
>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>
> Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
Absolutely. And then the cyclists behind, one of them you can almost see
the gear being used. Whatever it is, it's way more than the 53x11 and
Kunich and Jobst hate so much.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 01:08:39
From:
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 23:58:23 -0800, Troll Report <trollr@eport.net >
wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter wrote:
>
>> On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>>http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>>
>>> Heh,
>>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>>
>> Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
>
>Absolutely. And then the cyclists behind, one of them you can almost see
>the gear being used. Whatever it is, it's way more than the 53x11 and
>Kunich and Jobst hate so much.
Dear Troll,
Antique and elegant:
http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/results.asp?image=10327510&wwwflag=2&imagepos=6
Modern double-reduction:
http://www.canosoarus.com/08LSRbicycle/LSR%20Bike02.htm
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 15:51:00
From:
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter <landotter@gmail.com >
wrote:
>On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> >http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>
>> Heh,
>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>
>Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
Dear LD,
Yup, typical old pacer motorcycles. When built specifically for
letting bicycles draft, the machine seats its rider in a grossly
rearward position with a special seat and handlebar and is known as a
Derny because that was the name of a guy who made some famous ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derny
Other features include anti-crash back fenders and engine features to
prevent sudden braking. I suspect that the wiki article is a little
misleading, since such oddball motorcycles appeared long before 1938.
Before decent motorcycles appeared, multi-rider tandems and all sorts
of steam engine contraptions were used for motor-pacing by racers like
Major Taylor.
A man against a motorcycle is no contest. The girls buzzing around on
little motor scooters can blast past Lance Armstrong. Even a single
horsepower engine (if such a thing is sold) puts out 746 watts, and a
typical underpowered push lawn-motor is rated at 3.5 horsepower.
Here's a cheap lawnmower with a terrifying 158cc engine:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Lawn+Mowers&pid=07138512000&vertical=LAWN&subcat=Side+Discharge+Mowers&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
A 1968 90cc Honda trail-ninety would happily hold 40 mph on level dirt
roads at 5,000 feet with its blistering claimed 7 horsepower dribbling
through a dual-range automatic transmission. Tucking in on the
step-through frame could raise the speed to 45 mph.
http://www.weightlessdog.com/ct90.nsf
The claimed 56 mph was, as far as my friends and I could tell from
several years of childhood testing, a sea-level fantasy from Japanese
marketing.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 18:41:48
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter <landotter@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>> Heh,
>>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>> Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
>
> Dear LD,
>
> Yup, typical old pacer motorcycles. When built specifically for
> letting bicycles draft, the machine seats its rider in a grossly
> rearward position with a special seat and handlebar and is known as a
> Derny because that was the name of a guy who made some famous ones:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derny
>
> Other features include anti-crash back fenders and engine features to
> prevent sudden braking. I suspect that the wiki article is a little
> misleading, since such oddball motorcycles appeared long before 1938.
>
> Before decent motorcycles appeared, multi-rider tandems and all sorts
> of steam engine contraptions were used for motor-pacing by racers like
> Major Taylor.
>
> A man against a motorcycle is no contest. The girls buzzing around on
> little motor scooters can blast past Lance Armstrong. Even a single
> horsepower engine (if such a thing is sold) puts out 746 watts, and a
> typical underpowered push lawn-motor is rated at 3.5 horsepower.
>
> Here's a cheap lawnmower with a terrifying 158cc engine:
>
> http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Lawn+Mowers&pid=07138512000&vertical=LAWN&subcat=Side+Discharge+Mowers&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
>
> A 1968 90cc Honda trail-ninety would happily hold 40 mph on level dirt
> roads at 5,000 feet with its blistering claimed 7 horsepower dribbling
> through a dual-range automatic transmission. Tucking in on the
> step-through frame could raise the speed to 45 mph.
>
> http://www.weightlessdog.com/ct90.nsf
I started out with motorcycles back in the early 60's and a Honda 50
would do about 40 MPH at a zillion RPM. Some of us pooled our money and
bought a Honda 90 street bike that would do about 50 MPH. Of course that
was the speedometer reading so it may have been a little optimistic.
56 MPH would have required a tuck of one's head down to the handlebars.
>
> The claimed 56 mph was, as far as my friends and I could tell from
> several years of childhood testing, a sea-level fantasy from Japanese
> marketing.
If my memory is correct, when I visited the Museum of speed by the
Bonneville salt flats, some guy got about 95 MPH out of a Honda 50 by
laying down on the tank and sticking his feet straight back. Crazy, I
know, but there is a picture of him on the wall. The 'museum' loosely
speaking is a diner kind of thing on the Nevada side.
Bill Baka
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 16:12:30
From:
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:51:00 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter <landotter@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>> >http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>>
>>> Heh,
>>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>>
>>Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
>
>Dear LD,
>
>Yup, typical old pacer motorcycles. When built specifically for
>letting bicycles draft, the machine seats its rider in a grossly
>rearward position with a special seat and handlebar and is known as a
>Derny because that was the name of a guy who made some famous ones:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derny
>
>Other features include anti-crash back fenders and engine features to
>prevent sudden braking. I suspect that the wiki article is a little
>misleading, since such oddball motorcycles appeared long before 1938.
>
>Before decent motorcycles appeared, multi-rider tandems and all sorts
>of steam engine contraptions were used for motor-pacing by racers like
>Major Taylor.
>
>A man against a motorcycle is no contest. The girls buzzing around on
>little motor scooters can blast past Lance Armstrong. Even a single
>horsepower engine (if such a thing is sold) puts out 746 watts, and a
>typical underpowered push lawn-motor is rated at 3.5 horsepower.
>
>Here's a cheap lawnmower with a terrifying 158cc engine:
>
>http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Lawn+Mowers&pid=07138512000&vertical=LAWN&subcat=Side+Discharge+Mowers&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
>
>A 1968 90cc Honda trail-ninety would happily hold 40 mph on level dirt
>roads at 5,000 feet with its blistering claimed 7 horsepower dribbling
>through a dual-range automatic transmission. Tucking in on the
>step-through frame could raise the speed to 45 mph.
>
>http://www.weightlessdog.com/ct90.nsf
>
>The claimed 56 mph was, as far as my friends and I could tell from
>several years of childhood testing, a sea-level fantasy from Japanese
>marketing.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
Aha!
http://i8.tinypic.com/4katr9f.jpg
Major Taylor behind a motor-pacer in Paris in 1908 from "Major Taylor"
by Andrew Ritchie.
Both men wear helmets, so maybe helmets were a motor-pacing thing.
Since it's 1908, Taylor has long since abandoned shaft-drive.
CF
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 17:31:38
From:
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 16:12:30 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 15:51:00 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:57:55 -0700, landotter <landotter@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Jun 6, 3:49 pm, Bill <b...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> >http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/d...
>>>>
>>>> Heh,
>>>> That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
>>>> protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
>>>> appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
>>>> It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
>>>> Was this a man versus machine race?
>>>
>>>Those are likely pacer bikes in front, just like in Keirin racing.
>>
>>Dear LD,
>>
>>Yup, typical old pacer motorcycles. When built specifically for
>>letting bicycles draft, the machine seats its rider in a grossly
>>rearward position with a special seat and handlebar and is known as a
>>Derny because that was the name of a guy who made some famous ones:
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derny
>>
>>Other features include anti-crash back fenders and engine features to
>>prevent sudden braking. I suspect that the wiki article is a little
>>misleading, since such oddball motorcycles appeared long before 1938.
>>
>>Before decent motorcycles appeared, multi-rider tandems and all sorts
>>of steam engine contraptions were used for motor-pacing by racers like
>>Major Taylor.
>>
>>A man against a motorcycle is no contest. The girls buzzing around on
>>little motor scooters can blast past Lance Armstrong. Even a single
>>horsepower engine (if such a thing is sold) puts out 746 watts, and a
>>typical underpowered push lawn-motor is rated at 3.5 horsepower.
>>
>>Here's a cheap lawnmower with a terrifying 158cc engine:
>>
>>http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Lawn+Mowers&pid=07138512000&vertical=LAWN&subcat=Side+Discharge+Mowers&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes
>>
>>A 1968 90cc Honda trail-ninety would happily hold 40 mph on level dirt
>>roads at 5,000 feet with its blistering claimed 7 horsepower dribbling
>>through a dual-range automatic transmission. Tucking in on the
>>step-through frame could raise the speed to 45 mph.
>>
>>http://www.weightlessdog.com/ct90.nsf
>>
>>The claimed 56 mph was, as far as my friends and I could tell from
>>several years of childhood testing, a sea-level fantasy from Japanese
>>marketing.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel
>
>Aha!
>
>http://i8.tinypic.com/4katr9f.jpg
>
>Major Taylor behind a motor-pacer in Paris in 1908 from "Major Taylor"
>by Andrew Ritchie.
>
>Both men wear helmets, so maybe helmets were a motor-pacing thing.
>
>Since it's 1908, Taylor has long since abandoned shaft-drive.
>
>CF
Some old tandem motor-pacers. Given the advantage of a sizable rear
team member, the captain might refer to the stoker as the Chalo:
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/i1_B_L.jpg
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/i1_B_L2.jpg
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/i1_B_L3.jpg
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/i1_B_L4.jpg
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/i1_B_L5.jpg
Helmets on all three:
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/motorcycle.jpg
"Hinter seiner Schrittmachern" means roughly "behind its pacemakers."
The bicyclist is Fritz Theile, 1884-1911, so the last picture
pre-dates Derny by at least 27 years:
http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=2366
CF
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 00:05:00
From: Troll Report
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:31:38 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>[]
>
> http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=2366
>
You can't get that kind of bike positioning these days without spending
$20,000 in wind tunnel testing. And what about those handlebars? I'd say
good bars like that aren't made anymore for the same reason that compact
frames are foisted upon us. e.g. It's convenient for the manufactures to
give us crap ass designs, as they can offer them in fewer sizes.
> CF
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 07 Jun 2007 02:07:28
From:
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
On Thu, 7 Jun 2007 00:05:00 -0800, Troll Report <trollr@eport.net >
wrote:
>On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 17:31:38 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>[]
>>
>> http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=2366
>>
>
>You can't get that kind of bike positioning these days without spending
>$20,000 in wind tunnel testing.
[snip]
Dear Troll,
Neither could Thiele. He undertook what was then the equivalent of
expensive wind tunnel testing:
"Theile ging nach Paris, perfektionierte sich hier vor allem als
Fahrer hinter Tandemführung . . ."
Roughly, "Theile went to Paris to perfect himself there as a rider
behind a tandem-guide . . ."
http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=2366
Those bizarre tandem motor-pacers were the high-tech training
equipment of the times, and going to France to train behind them was
about the same as going to Europe would be for a modern U.S. rider.
So this picture of Thiele behind a two-man motor-paceris about the
same as a picture of Lance in a wind-tunnel:
http://www.oldbike.com/Photo%20Gallery/motorcycle.jpg
And the bike used for the tandem training is quite different from the
bike in the biographical page. The small front wheel, for example, let
the drafting rider get a little closer, but Sgt. Schultz standing on
the back of the motor-pacer was so tall that the rider didn't need to
tuck down nearly as much.
Here's the biographical page again:
http://www.cycling4fans.de/index.php?id=2366
The tires in the biographical page are probably the typical 30-inch
tires used back then, and Thiele is tucking down as he would for a
non-paced event. The huge tires and the frames needed to accomodate
them make the non-paced riders look smaller and more hunched-down than
they really were.
Look at where Thiele's knees are in relation to his chest with the
pedals level in the biographical picture--there's an awful lot of room
between his thighs and his chest.
Next, look at how high Thiele's chin is above the handlebar stem--you
could tuck his twin brother into all that empty space between bike and
rider.
Finally, note the faintly chopper-like look of the fork--it's the
result of accomodating such a big wheel.
It's really a different bike than what we're used to.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| |
Date: 06 Jun 2007 20:49:00
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Earliest helmets?
|
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> http://oldroads.com/pqdb_img.asp?p=http://members.aol.com/menotomy6/disp/race.gif&mod=&mak=Race_at_Revere_Beach,_MA
Heh,
That first picture that pops up looks like the helmets were more for
protecting the hair from road rash than a broken skull. Some of them
appear to have a harder cap on top, but very minimal.
It also looks as if the bicycles were going to race the motorcycles.
Was this a man versus machine race?
Bill Baka
|
|
