| |
Main
Date: 01 Jun 2007 15:04:52
From: meb
Subject: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles unde
this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on th
non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheel
with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have bee
trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter an
have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rim
too).
I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for specia
occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassett
shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use o
disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously ponderin
trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd b
unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewhee
in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
Thank
--
meb
|
|
| |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 18:51:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Jun 17, 5:08 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >> datakoll wrote:
> >>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
> >>>http://www.philwood.com/
> >> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
>
> > Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
>
> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
> about your hubs/axles.
"Chris King", shorthand for "over-priced and over-hyped"!
|
| |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 11:04:12
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Jun 11, 1:37 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
<snipped >
> http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx?
Your mother tells us you will be starting the seventh grade in
September, Master Brandt. Good luck, middle school will be a new
experience.
|
| |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 08:43:56
From: philcycles
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Phil Brown writes:
>
> >> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
> >> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
> >> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
> >> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
> >> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
> >> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
> >> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
> >> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
> >> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
> >> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
> >> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
> >> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
> >> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
> >> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
> >> can't rule that out.
>
> > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
> > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
> > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
> > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
> > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
>
> I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
> rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
> cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
> unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
> around here.
>
> Jobst Brandt
While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
Phil Brown
|
| | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 13:01:57
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:43:56 -0700, philcycles <philcycles@gmail.com >
wrote:
>
>jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Phil Brown writes:
>>
>> >> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
>> >> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
>> >> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
>> >> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
>> >> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
>> >> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
>> >> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
>> >> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
>> >> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
>> >> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
>> >> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
>> >> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
>> >> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
>> >> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
>> >> can't rule that out.
>>
>> > Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
>> > dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
>> > While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
>> > professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
>> > old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
>>
>> I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
>> rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
>> cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
>> unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
>> around here.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
>While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
>spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
>Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
>riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
>all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
>Phil Brown
Dear Phil,
I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
:)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 07:28:24
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:43:56 -0700, philcycles <philcycles@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> BTW I weigh 220, ride
> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break
>> I've been riding 130
>>spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
>>Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my >>normal
>>riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing >>requiring all
>>the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
>>Phil Brown
Phil, you still didn't say what 130mm axle you are using for your older
Campagnolo Record rear hubs. I would like to purchase qty: 2 of those axles
from you.
I also still wondering if vertical dropouts are the key to NOT braking
rear axles over the Campagnolo 1010b horizontal dropouts?
http://www.cccycles.com/drop-out.html
-tom
|
| | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 12:55:16
From: still me
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:01:57 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>Dear Phil,
>
>I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
>
> :)
Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
|
| | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 18:13:25
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
someone writes:
>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right dropouts.
It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the rider.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | |
Date: 10 Jun 2007 11:45:11
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone writes:
>
>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
>
>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
>
> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right dropouts.
excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of this
i just gotta see!
> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the rider.
what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and load
cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more cycles, it will
dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the candidate for axle
breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt you've done testing with
axles what always orient the same each time they're refitted. if you
had, you'd be able to tell which was dominant based on fatigue
initiation point.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 06:37:02
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:
>>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
>>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
>> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right
dropouts.
> excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of
> this i just gotta see!
You're not excused. Fatigue occurs at a stress level not achieved by
bumps in the road and chain pull is in the millions of cycles that are
greater than road bumps. Dropout failures show that the flexing is
fore and aft not up and down as road shocks are.
>> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the
>> rider.
> what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and
> load cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more
> cycles, it will dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the
> candidate for axle breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt
> you've done testing with axles what always orient the same each time
> they're refitted. if you had, you'd be able to tell which was
> dominant based on fatigue initiation point.
Oh get off it. You aren't making any points with your "former
metallurgist" jargon. I work closely with a frame builder who repairs
many broken dropouts and I have a large collection of broken rear
Campagnolo axles. If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
axles break. You should know the relationship between bending stress
and hollow axle diameters. Where's your experience in this.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 19:50:50
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:
>
>>>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
>
>>>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
>
>>> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right
> dropouts.
>
>> excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of
>> this i just gotta see!
>
> You're not excused. Fatigue occurs at a stress level not achieved by
> bumps in the road
er, jobst, it most certainly is. the question is, how many cycles do
they receive at that level.
> and chain pull is in the millions of cycles that are
> greater than road bumps.
high cycles, yes. greater peak magnitude? no.
> Dropout failures show that the flexing is
> fore and aft not up and down as road shocks are.
show pictures. show your analysis.
and how about the axle failure analysis i asked you about - where you
have the axle always oriented the same so you can tell from the fatigue
fracture surface where the initiation point was and how that related to
dominant stress.
>
>>> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the
>>> rider.
>
>> what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and
>> load cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more
>> cycles, it will dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the
>> candidate for axle breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt
>> you've done testing with axles what always orient the same each time
>> they're refitted. if you had, you'd be able to tell which was
>> dominant based on fatigue initiation point.
>
> Oh get off it. You aren't making any points with your "former
> metallurgist" jargon. I work closely with a frame builder who repairs
> many broken dropouts
funny. i've never yet met a frame builder trained in fatigue analysis.
not many engineers either come to that.
> and I have a large collection of broken rear
> Campagnolo axles.
all of which were analyzed in relation to their load vectors, right?
> If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
> axles break.
you know, for a guy that claims to be an engineer, you do miss some
surprisingly obvious points. outboard bearings. remember? you've
cited this reasoning before, but given the above statement, the question
now is whether you regurgitated something you'd heard from someone else
without understanding why - 'cos that's surely what the above statement
implies.
> You should know the relationship between bending stress
> and hollow axle diameters. Where's your experience in this.
you should know the relationships for stress that results from skewer
compression and how that mitigates fatigue, and compare that with stress
from application loading. you allude to "experience" but you sure don't
evidence that. or comprehension come to that.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 23:15:36
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
In article <SeednSRqNtOXl_PbnZ2dnUVZ_uiknZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> and how about the axle failure analysis i asked you about - where you
> have the axle always oriented the same so you can tell from the
> fatigue fracture surface where the initiation point was and how that
> related to dominant stress.
As an aside, the only axles I've seen where such orientation was
reasonably likely has been Sturmey Archer rear hubs, having flats unlike
the vast majority of other hubs. I've never seen one of those break-
has anyone?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 14:55:47
From: still me
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On 11 Jun 2007 06:37:02 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
>axles break.
Same reason I never get flat spots in any front rims - when going over
a bump, the load is disproportionatly placed more exclusively on the
rear wheel and axle.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 12:39:41
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Dans le message de news:466ced8e$0$14090$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net,
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org <jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> I have a large collection of broken rear Campagnolo axles.
Stamps or tea towels would be healthier for collecting. Just a suggestion.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jun 2007 10:09:14
From: R Brickston
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On 11 Jun 2007 06:37:02 GMT, jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:
>
>>>>> I conclude that you weigh less than 120 lbs.
>
>>>> Or he never rides over big bumps in the road!
>
>>> Bumps in the road do not break axles and do not crack right
>dropouts.
>
>> excuse me??? bumps aren't fatigue loading??? your explanation of
>> this i just gotta see!
>
>You're not excused. Fatigue occurs at a stress level not achieved by
>bumps in the road and chain pull is in the millions of cycles that are
>greater than road bumps. Dropout failures show that the flexing is
>fore and aft not up and down as road shocks are.
>
>>> It's chain pull and that depends largely on the weight of the
>>> rider.
>
>> what you really mean is that it comes down to stress magnitude and
>> load cycles. if chain pull load is high enough and with more
>> cycles, it will dominate. otherwise, bump loading could be the
>> candidate for axle breakage with inboard bearings. but i doubt
>> you've done testing with axles what always orient the same each time
>> they're refitted. if you had, you'd be able to tell which was
>> dominant based on fatigue initiation point.
>
>Oh get off it. You aren't making any points with your "former
>metallurgist" jargon. I work closely with a frame builder who repairs
>many broken dropouts and I have a large collection of broken rear
>Campagnolo axles. If it were road shock, why don't much thinner front
>axles break. You should know the relationship between bending stress
>and hollow axle diameters. Where's your experience in this.
>
>Jobst Brandt
In the anodizing tank?
|
| | |
Date: 09 Jun 2007 09:01:18
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
philcycles wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Phil Brown writes:
>>
>>>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
>>>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
>>>> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
>>>> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
>>>> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
>>>> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
>>>> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
>>>> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
>>>> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
>>>> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
>>>> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
>>>> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
>>>> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
>>>> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
>>>> can't rule that out.
>>> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
>>> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
>>> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
>>> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
>>> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
>> I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
>> rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
>> cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
>> unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
>> around here.
>>
>> Jobst Brandt
>
> While I bow to your riding exploits, Jobst, I've been riding 130
> spaced Record hubs for a long time and, while they aren't the Alps,
> Mt. Tam, the San Gabriels and the Santa Monica Mountains-my normal
> riding turf for the past 30 years-have some good climbing requiring
> all the mustard I've got. No broken or bent axles.
> Phil Brown
>
my experience is similar in that i used to bend freewheel hub axles all
the time until i switched to campy hubs. never had a problem after
that. never experienced a fatigue failure with campy hubs either.
returning to design, while jobst is correct that an inboard bearing is
not the best idea, it's not the whole story. consider that bending a
beam with rigidly held ends is not the same as bending a beam with free
ends - there is less deflection. less deflection means less fatigue.
if jobst had a stiffer frame, he's likely see a good deal fewer
breakages of both axles and dropouts too.
|
| |
Date: 05 Jun 2007 02:41:42
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
> > wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>
> >http://www.philwood.com/
>
> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 22:08:42
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>> datakoll wrote:
>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>>> http://www.philwood.com/
>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
>
> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
>
Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
about your hubs/axles.
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 15:20:26
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
wizardB wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> datakoll wrote:
>>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>>>> http://www.philwood.com/
>>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
>>
>> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
>>
> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of worrying
> about your hubs/axles.
except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show for
a several-hundred dollar hub.
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:20:29
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
jim beam wrote:
> wizardB wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> datakoll wrote:
>>>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>>>>> http://www.philwood.com/
>>>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
>>>
>>> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
>>>
>> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of
>> worrying about your hubs/axles.
>
> except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show for
> a several-hundred dollar hub.
There absolutely no damage to my free hub body and my hubs see lots of
miles and nasty terrain I think the crap about their free hub bodies
come from people using cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:00:33
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
wizardB wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> wizardB wrote:
>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>> datakoll wrote:
>>>>>> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>>>>>> http://www.philwood.com/
>>>>> lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
>>>>
>>>> Quelle surprise! I'm shocked, shocked!!
>>>>
>>> Just spend the money buy Chris King and start riding instead of
>>> worrying about your hubs/axles.
>>
>> except that their aluminum freehub bodies get mangled... poor show
>> for a several-hundred dollar hub.
> There absolutely no damage to my free hub body and my hubs see lots of
> miles and nasty terrain I think the crap about their free hub bodies
> come from people using cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances.
i don't call xtr "cheep ass cassettes that have lossy tolerances". but
they mangle a ck hub just great. there's a reason shimano don't use
aluminum for their shallow spline freehub bodies. ck never figured out why.
|
| |
Date: 03 Jun 2007 04:16:55
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
GBTIN!
http://www.lickbike.com/manfsearch.shtml
www.universalcycles.com/
www.wheelsmfg.com/
but they're out of Basso!
and the DB are gonna tax us for this stuff then let Wal pile up
deficits
|
| |
Date: 03 Jun 2007 01:47:55
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
http://www.philwood.com/
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 19:47:29
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
datakoll wrote:
> wood has a sale on freewheel hubs at:
>
> http://www.philwood.com/
>
lickton's standard pricing is less then phil's sale pricing.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 21:16:51
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
meb wrote:
>
> I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
> occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
> shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
> disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
> trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
> unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
> in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
I went through this years ago. I first re-spaced my old hubs to 130,
and got 7, then 8-speed freewheels. Started breaking axles. Funny, I
never did that when I weighed 140lbs and had 5-speed. I'm sure it was
the extra cogs.....
Anyway, a solid axle did not help. Not only did they still break, but
with Q/R axles at least the skewer would hold things more or less
together until I got home.
Go for the freehubs.
--
David L. Johnson
Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front of
enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of them would
reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has
proven this not to be the case.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 10:18:39
From: philcycles
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Tom Nakashima wrote:
> Phil,
> what rear axles do you use on your Campy Record Hubs?
> -tom
Wheels Mfg.
Phil Brown
|
| |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 21:11:06
From: datakoll@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
the frame ridden here is an old raleigh-ibusu. we evolved from steel
rims/freewheel under hd touring commuting. Solid Wheels Mfg axles
cured the apparently designed in freewheel axle bending problem.
Frankly, travel from a to b with 30 pounds on the rack at 165 rider
weight withou bending the hollow freewhel axle is doubtful without
bending the axle. Several times I rebuilt then went up the street to
wal, bending the rig on the way home after great care not too: and was
consumed with the urge to take an ax to it.
Wheels plus a shimano deore freehib is the way togo. A loooooong
Wheels axle allows sloppy work and the opportunity to attach a mortar
or RPG launcher. Wheels metal is strong yet amlleable, simply bent
back to straight straight 360 if bent on the freewheel.
|
| |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 13:07:40
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
meb wrote:
> Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
> this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
> non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
> with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
> trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
> have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
> too).
>
> I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
> occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
> shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
> disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
> trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
> unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
> in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
Yes, but why not?
If your setup works with seven, add enough right side spacing for an 8
and write back with your results.
You'll increase unsupported right side axle length and increase right
side spoke tension both to either an acceptable or unacceptable extent.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 09:49:18
From: philcycles
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
meb wrote:
> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently being
> misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight
> misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of bent
> dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed spoke
> protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the frame
> in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike that
> had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent
> trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was
> substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
> Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than at
> the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs between
> bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a significant
> issue though I can't rule that out.--
> meb
Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
Phil Brown
|
| | |
Date: 04 Jun 2007 18:03:48
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Phil Brown writes:
>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
>> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
>> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
>> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
>> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
>> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally
>> escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure whilst going
>> straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an extensive period
>> when another freewheel rear was substituted even though no dropout
>> alignment checks were performed. Failures on the axles were always
>> proximate the bearings rather than at the dropouts suggesting the
>> axles couldn't support the long runs between bearings and dropouts.
>> My suspicion is alignment was not a significant issue though I
>> can't rule that out.
> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
I have never had a non parallel dropout and have piles of Campagnolo
rear axles used with 120mm spacing, broken at the nose of the right
cone. I cannot imagine a 130mm spacing surviving for climbing hills
unless the rider weighs less than 120lbs. Even they have broken axles
around here.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 17:19:38
From: meb
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
philcycles Wrote:
> meb wrote:
>
> > Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
> > factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequentl
> being
> > misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight
> > misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude o
> bent
> > dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroye
> spoke
> > protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into th
> frame
> > in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bik
> that
> > had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent
> > trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was
> > substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
> > Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather tha
> at
> > the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long run
> between
> > bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not
> significant
> > issue though I can't rule that out.--
> > meb
>
> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
> Phil Brown
What causes the dropouts to drop out of parrallellism?
FWI worth, my failures have all been horizontal dropouts, 120,124,
126 mm widths
--
meb
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 15:06:50
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
meb who? writes:
>>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
>>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
>>> being misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was
>>> slight misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the
>>> magnitude of bent dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed
>>> riders, destroyed spoke protectors and bent spokes when the wheel
>>> locks itself into the frame in an unsuccessful attempt to
>>> laterally escape its home. One bike that had an axle failure
>>> whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent trouble over an
>>> extensive period when another freewheel rear was substituted even
>>> though no dropout alignment checks were performed. Failures on
>>> the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than at the
>>> dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs
>>> between bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not
>>> a significant issue though I can't rule that out.--
>> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
>> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
Bent and broken dropouts are always caused by flexing and broken
axles, typical of which are old Campagnolo Record hubs that were
designed for four speeds and have many more to increase overhang.
They break at the nose of the right cone, the transition from threaded
axle to solid steel cone and spacers of larger diameter... the place
of maximum bending moment from chain pull.
>> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
>> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
>> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
>> Phil Brown
> What causes the dropouts to drop out of parallelism? FWI worth, my
> failures have all been horizontal dropouts, 120,124, & 126 mm
> widths.
Broken axles!
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Jun 2007 09:47:52
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
>> meb wrote:
>>> Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributing
>>> factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently
>> being
>>> misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was slight
>>> misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of
>> bent
>>> dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed
>> spoke
>>> protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the
>> frame
>>> in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike
>> that
>>> had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequent
>>> trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear was
>>> substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
>>> Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than
>> at
>>> the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs
>> between
>>> bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a
>> significant
>>> issue though I can't rule that out.--
> philcycles Wrote:
>> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
>> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
>> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
>> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
>> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
meb wrote:
> What causes the dropouts to drop out of parrallellism?
-snip-
Broken axle primarily. Poor QC at build occasionally.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 10:37:12
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
"philcycles" <philcycles@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180716558.462953.172020@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
> Phil Brown
>
After thinking more about broken axles, I was wondering if the dropouts
have something to do with it. I have the adjustable Campagnolo 1010 long
horizontal dropouts. Wondering if a fixed vertical dropout would be more
of a secured method against axel breakage and fatigue for those older
Campy Record hubs?
-tom
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 22:15:12
From:
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Tom Nakashima writes:
>> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
>> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
>> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
>> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
>> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
> After thinking more about broken axles, I was wondering if the
> dropouts have something to do with it. I have the adjustable
> Campagnolo 1010 long horizontal dropouts. Wondering if a fixed
> vertical dropout would be more of a secured method against axle
> breakage and fatigue for those older Campy Record hubs? -tom
Not to worry, I've had four "vertical" dropout failures and augured
faces on both horizontal and vertical dropouts. Broken and flexing
axles is what breaks dropouts.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 10:02:44
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
"philcycles" <philcycles@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1180716558.462953.172020@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bent and broken axles are almost always caused by non parallel
> dropouts and they don't break at the dropout but somewhere inboard.
> While cassette hubs are a very good idea I would have the dropouts
> professionally aligned and see what happens. BTW I weigh 220, ride
> old Campy Record hubs spaced 130 and NEVER bend or break axles.
> Phil Brown
>
Phil,
what rear axles do you use on your Campy Record Hubs?
-tom
|
| |
Date: 31 May 2007 23:24:24
From: Troll Report
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:04:52 +1000, meb wrote:
> Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
> this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
> non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
> with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
> trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
> have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
> too).
>
> I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
> occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
> shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
> disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
> trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
> unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
> in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
>
> Thanks
Any reason going to solid axle and going to 8 speeds are linked? It's easy
to change axles. Anyway maybe keep saving thouse 8 speed freewheels for
those special causes cause you may need a different chain and crank to make
it work good on the commuter.
About all the broken QR's... that may be because your frame has misaligned
dropouts. It's cheap to get them aligned, then you may find you have no
more problems with hollow axles.
|
| | |
Date: 01 Jun 2007 17:28:07
From: meb
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
Troll Report Wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:04:52 +1000, meb wrote:
>
> > Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axle
> under
> > this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
> > non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
> > with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
> > trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commute
> and
> > have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share o
> rims
> > too).
> >
> > I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
> > occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility wit
> cassette
> > shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
> > disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
> > trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'
> be
> > unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 spee
> freewheel
> > in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
> >
> > Thanks
>
>
> Any reason going to solid axle and going to 8 speeds are linked? It'
> easy
> to change axles. Anyway maybe keep saving thouse 8 speed freewheel
> for
> those special causes cause you may need a different chain and crank t
> make
> it work good on the commuter.
>
> About all the broken QR's... that may be because your frame ha
> misaligned
> dropouts. It's cheap to get them aligned, then you may find you hav
> no
> more problems with hollow axles.
The only linkage was that the relative robustness of the solid axl
allowed me a chance to consider, at a time I was putting on a ne
freewheel, the extra gears of an 8 speed freewheel that I wouldn't hav
dared try with a QR.
Interesting thought on the dropout alignment as a contributin
factor-two failed during cornering with the dropouts subsequently bein
misaligned from the rear torsional carnage. If there was sligh
misalignment before the failure, it was masked by the magnitude of ben
dropouts and stays, bent luggage rack, destroyed rders, destroyed spok
protectors and bent spokes when the wheel locks itself into the fram
in an unsuccessful attempt to laterally escape its home. One bike tha
had an axle failure whilst going straight did not suffer subsequen
trouble over an extensive period when another freewheel rear wa
substituted even though no dropout alignment checks were performed.
Failures on the axles were always proximate the bearings rather than a
the dropouts suggesting the axles couldn't support the long runs betwee
bearings and dropouts. My suspicion is alignment was not a significan
issue though I can't rule that out
--
meb
|
| |
Date: 31 May 2007 22:27:51
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Eight speed freewheel on bolt axle wheel
|
meb wrote:
> Having broken enough quick release 5 and 6 speed freewheel axles under
> this 235 lb body, I've been downgrading to bolt-on axles on the
> non-freehub bikes whilst at the same time upgrading worn freewheels
> with 7 speed (generally Shimano type C) freewheels. I have been
> trading off lightweight for reliability on my robust road-commuter and
> have resorted to a 48 spoke tandem wheelset (I've bent my share of rims
> too).
>
> I have a couple of Sachs 8 speed freewheels I was saving for special
> occaisions wherein I am needing 8 indexed compatibility with cassette
> shod bikes, or light load fwd delta recumbent experiments, or use on
> disc or hub motor wheels. I was suddenly very tenuously pondering
> trying these on my road bike commuter. Any opinions on whether I'd be
> unduly inviting more failures if I tried putting an 8 speed freewheel
> in conjunction with a bolt-on axle rear wheel?
>
> Thanks
>
>
shimano-style freehubs don't break axles because both bearings are
mounted outboard, not with one inboard like on freewheel hubs. make the
change and you won't break any more axles.
|
|
