Electronic shifting system

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Date: 06 Aug 2007 12:24:28
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Electronic shifting system

Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
Mektronic used the d=E9railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
weight. Both Shimano and Campagnlo's shifting system requires a very
large battery.

The really big issue is if these shifting systems will withstand a
immersion test. This requirement seems a bit extreme, but there are
occasions when I am riding and you have go through a very deep puddle
with no other way to go around.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:50:48
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Autra Bike Co : Automatic shifting system

About 15 years ago I was at Interbike in Long Beach and I ran across
this automatic shifting system that was developed by Autra Bike Co.
The shifting system had this variable sprocket system. The gear system
used this system whereby wedges of teeth would move in and out of
place to form a gear. The system was patented, but never moved beyond
the prototype state. I suspect that the system would be unable to
withstand the torque of a conventional shifting system.

Autra bike also developed a very elegant hydraulic brake system. One
of the people at Magura told me that he saw the braking leaking fluid
however.

The patents are available:
(http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850939.html )

On Aug 11, 8:58 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
> shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:
>
> "The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
> successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
> entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
> introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
> lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
> application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
> valuable in racing."
>
> http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html
>
> For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
> avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
> limited to squabbles on RBT.
>
> But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
> electronic bicycle shifter.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:50:38
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:10:36
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

> carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
>> shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:
>>
>> "The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
>> successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
>> entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
>> introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
>> lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
>> application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
>> valuable in racing."
>>
>> http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html
>>
>> For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
>> avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
>> limited to squabbles on RBT.
>>
>> But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
>> electronic bicycle shifter.

hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
> Autra Bike Co : Automatic shifting system
> About 15 years ago I was at Interbike in Long Beach and I ran across
> this automatic shifting system that was developed by Autra Bike Co.
> The shifting system had this variable sprocket system. The gear system
> used this system whereby wedges of teeth would move in and out of
> place to form a gear. The system was patented, but never moved beyond
> the prototype state. I suspect that the system would be unable to
> withstand the torque of a conventional shifting system.
> Autra bike also developed a very elegant hydraulic brake system. One
> of the people at Magura told me that he saw the braking leaking fluid
> however.
> The patents are available:
> (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4850939.html )

That was previously patented by Tokheim around 1973.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:24:19
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 15, 8:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Aug 14, 8:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwh...@ti.com> wrote in messagenews:1187116604.559325.236760@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> > >> shifting.
> > >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> > Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> > Shimano, on the fly would be handy .
>
> One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
> will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
> shifting at the high end.

It will be left to some independent to do this. I predict Modolo
Morphos II with electronically configured shift indexing able to
support any cassette spacing.

Bret

Date: 15 Aug 2007 09:58:53
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 14, 7:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwh...@ti.com> wrote in messagenews:1187116604.559325.236760@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

One might have to "degrade" all to 8sp for that, and even then I'm not
so sure. Don't forget the chain width problem. An 8sp chain will
have a tough time on a 10 sp cassette. Conversely, I wonder if a 10sp
chain will seat on 8sp 1.8 mm cogs, or shift well. Hmm....

A 10 sp mix of Campy to Shimano and vice versa might be possible
_assuming everyone has a working and programmable system_.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 09:37:12
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 15, 7:16 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com > wrote:

> One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
> will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
> shifting at the high end.

I'm pretty sure it's gonna be sooner rather than later.

Why? Because of the hoods on my 2007 Veloce Ergos.

I was puzzled by those hoods. They don't have the slot for the full
throw of the thumb lever, since you can only upshift one click at a
time. They also had Ergobrain buttons. This really bugged me, because
none of the levers that could use these hoods are Ergobrain
compatible. Are they coming out with a new Ergobrain model that's
"escape" compatible? Not likely. People who spend that much on a
computer are also going to spring for the higher-end group.

So why Ergobrain buttons? Then I saw a pic on Velonews of the
prototype electronic group, and it all fell into place. It had single-
click thumb lever throw, and an Ergobrain head was integral to the
system.

If Campy wasn't serious about bringing the group out in the next two
years, they would not have integrated a useless feature into a
redesigned hood.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 14:16:26
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 14, 8:13 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwh...@ti.com> wrote in messagenews:1187116604.559325.236760@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
shifting at the high end.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 07:54:37
From: Aeek
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 14:16:26 -0000, "Qui si parla
Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com" <peter@vecchios.com > wrote:

>One thing is for sure if this stuff ever makes it to production...it
>will be 10s only. None of the 3 companies really care about 8 or 9s
>shifting at the high end.

Why stop at 10s? Eliminating the human variable from the lever throw
gives repeatable precision, and as you mentioned trim can be
programmed to compensate for chain cross.
Electronic only 12s shifting, that's a real high end.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 03:42:52
From: lightninglad
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 11, 7:16 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "lightninglad" <wo...@internode.on.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1186824814.731108.294590@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
> >> whether or not the chain is centered.
>
> > Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...:)
>
> > Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
> > that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
> > bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?
>
> > Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
> > if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
> > build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
> > the computer adjust it.
>
> > If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
> > expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
> > motor and a computer chip?
>
> You obviously have a brilliant future in engineering. What is it that you do
> again?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What has 'what I do' got to do with the issue.? You haven't addressed
the issue at all - you've just taken a cheap shot.
I'll stand by what I said - vibration detection is standard
engineering practice. Domestic appliances are now electronically
controlled. Say something relevant or piss off.

Date: 14 Aug 2007 11:36:44
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions?

Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.

If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
"click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.

Date: 14 Aug 2007 21:13:58
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwhite@ti.com > wrote in message
news:1187116604.559325.236760@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
>> shifting.
>> Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
>
> If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
>

Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:47:24
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <sktwi.132896$dA7.29017@newsfe16.lga >, "Carl Sundquist" <carlsun@cox.net>
wrote:

> "SLAVE of THE STATE" <gwhite@ti.com> wrote in message
> news:1187116604.559325.236760@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> > On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
> >> shifting.
> >> Anyone got any suggestions?
> >
> > Multiple shift control location is perhaps the most obvious.
> >
> > If the front shifting is also eventually added to electronic systems,
> > then programmatic increment control is possible, meaning the user
> > doesn't need to think about double shifts (front-rear issues) or
> > anything like that after the sequence is initially programmed. Then a
> > "click" would mean a logical increment, not how the increment is
> > physically achieved. Is this "needed" when 10sp close-ratio cassettes
> > are available? I don't know -- I probably would not bother with it.
> > Programmatic incrementing would be very nice for half-step type
> > systems, as there are double shifts all the way through the range.
> > Half-steps seem to be seven-eights dead though.
> >
>
> Being able to switch it between 8-9-10 speed rear wheels, both Campy and
> Shimano, on the fly would be handy .

Mavic Neutral Support would have to carry a much smaller variety of wheels if it
could do that.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:58:45
From:
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:

"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
valuable in racing."

http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
limited to squabbles on RBT.

But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
electronic bicycle shifter.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 16 Aug 2007 20:40:49
From:
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:58:45 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:

>This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
>shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:
>
>"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
>successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
>entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
>introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
>lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
>application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
>valuable in racing."
>
>http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html
>
>For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
>avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
>limited to squabbles on RBT.
>
>But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
>electronic bicycle shifter.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel

A current electronic shift bike:

http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6167611-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 17 Aug 2007 14:23:23
From: Michael Blake
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:nk2ac31c5ckfd1eignqg9f8hjoat9sle97@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:58:45 -0700, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
>>shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:
>>
>>"The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
>>successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
>>entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
>>introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
>>lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
>>application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
>>valuable in racing."
>>
>>http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html
>>
>>For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
>>avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
>>limited to squabbles on RBT.
>>
>>But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
>>electronic bicycle shifter.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel
>
> A current electronic shift bike:
>
> http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6167611-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

My wife and I each have one of the new Giant Suede Coasting bikes. They
shift quite smoothly and are a delight to ride. I ride a Specialized Allez
road bike as well but the new "Coastings" are a lot of fun to ride together
in the neighborhoods.

We ride between 6 - 8 miles per day on the Giants and love every minute of
it. She had no desire for a derailer system nor hand brakes. and has not
been on a bike for 20 years.

They are not very "technical" but they sure are fun plus they got her back
into riding.

Mike

Date: 12 Aug 2007 21:34:57
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> This article suggests that all practical problems with electronic
> shifting were solved back in 1995 and concludes:
>
> "The Browning Automatic Bicycle Transmission is probably the first
> successful computer controlled shifting system, and it opens an
> entirely new avenue for the bicycle industry. The successful
> introduction of a fully automatic electric bicycle transmission could
> lead to the rapid expansion of a new market. The transmission has
> application to all types of cycling and might prove especially
> valuable in racing."
>
> http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html
>
> For some reason, no one seems to have pedalled down this "entirely new
> avenue" and the "rapid expansion of a new market" appears to be
> limited to squabbles on RBT.
>
> But the article has lots of interesting details about a working
> electronic bicycle shifter.

I rode several prototypes and the final product. It was exactly as
stated, perfect crisp shifts every time, any rpm, any load.
The industry collectively yawned, "electronic shift, so what else ya
got?" and moved on.
Angel Rodriguez had his Terra Tech Atomic frames built with Browning
clearance but I can't recall another frame that was. Without a
manufacturer's grace on that right chainstay position you aren't going
to add a Browning Beast aftermarket.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:33:55
From: Andrew Price
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:34:57 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:

[Browning Automatic Transmission]

>I rode several prototypes and the final product. It was exactly as
>stated, perfect crisp shifts every time, any rpm, any load.
>The industry collectively yawned, "electronic shift, so what else ya
>got?" and moved on.

What was the problem - cost?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:15:51
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Date: 12 Aug 2007 03:44:19
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
> >> shifter
> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
> length of one day?

I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?

Bret

Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:51:31
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186890259.791631.154610@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>> >> electronics
>> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>> >> shifter
>> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>
>> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>>
>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
>> length of one day?
>
> I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
> nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
> electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?

It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
the power requirements.

And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.

If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who have
great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their own
capital.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 15:00:15
From: Joe Riel
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > writes:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
>> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
>> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>
> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
> clearly don't do any serious mileage.

What's serious mileage? I can recall adjusting the rear derailleur of
my Campy 9 speed maybe three times in the last 7 years, and those were
after complete overhauls. I didn't have a bike computer for most of
those years (so mileage estimates are just that), and for some of them
was splitting riding time with the Moulton, but I've got at least
20,000 miles on it. Maybe my memory is failing, or the context is
different (road bike vs mountain bike). How often do most people
adjust a Campy rear derailleur?

--
Joe Riel

Date: 12 Aug 2007 05:09:51
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On 2007-08-11, Joe Riel <joer@san.rr.com > wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> writes:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
>>> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
>>> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>>
>> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
>> clearly don't do any serious mileage.
>
> What's serious mileage? I can recall adjusting the rear derailleur of
> my Campy 9 speed maybe three times in the last 7 years, and those were
> after complete overhauls. I didn't have a bike computer for most of
> those years (so mileage estimates are just that), and for some of them
> was splitting riding time with the Moulton, but I've got at least
> 20,000 miles on it. Maybe my memory is failing, or the context is
> different (road bike vs mountain bike). How often do most people
> adjust a Campy rear derailleur?

When I change a cable or a cassette. Otherwise it never needs it.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 00:00:05
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <87mywxspe8.fsf@san.rr.com >, Joe Riel ('joer@san.rr.com') wrote:

> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> writes:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
>>> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
>>> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>>
>> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
>> clearly don't do any serious mileage.
>
> What's serious mileage? I can recall adjusting the rear derailleur of
> my Campy 9 speed maybe three times in the last 7 years, and those were
> after complete overhauls. I didn't have a bike computer for most of
> those years (so mileage estimates are just that), and for some of them
> was splitting riding time with the Moulton, but I've got at least
> 20,000 miles on it. Maybe my memory is failing, or the context is
> different (road bike vs mountain bike). How often do most people
> adjust a Campy rear derailleur?

He probably uses Shimano... ;-)

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

Date: 11 Aug 2007 15:19:13
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Joe Riel wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> writes:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
>>> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
>>> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
>> clearly don't do any serious mileage.
>
> What's serious mileage? I can recall adjusting the rear derailleur of
> my Campy 9 speed maybe three times in the last 7 years, and those were
> after complete overhauls. I didn't have a bike computer for most of
> those years (so mileage estimates are just that), and for some of them
> was splitting riding time with the Moulton, but I've got at least
> 20,000 miles on it. Maybe my memory is failing, or the context is
> different (road bike vs mountain bike). How often do most people
> adjust a Campy rear derailleur?
>

for me, if i put on new cable outers, within the first 10 miles, then
50, than about 200. lasts about every 1000 thereafter. if i do cable
inners only, every 1000 or so. but i like my stuff to be dead on.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:14:37
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Joe Riel" <joer@san.rr.com > wrote in message
news:87mywxspe8.fsf@san.rr.com...
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> writes:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
>>> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
>>> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>>
>> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
>> clearly don't do any serious mileage.
>
> What's serious mileage? I can recall adjusting the rear derailleur of
> my Campy 9 speed maybe three times in the last 7 years, and those were
> after complete overhauls. I didn't have a bike computer for most of
> those years (so mileage estimates are just that), and for some of them
> was splitting riding time with the Moulton, but I've got at least
> 20,000 miles on it. Maybe my memory is failing, or the context is
> different (road bike vs mountain bike). How often do most people
> adjust a Campy rear derailleur?

If you keep the drive train clean and lubed, almost never.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 02:33:34
From: lightninglad
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
> whether or not the chain is centered.

Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...:)

Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?

Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
the computer adjust it.

If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
motor and a computer chip?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:16:17
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"lightninglad" <wordy@internode.on.net > wrote in message
news:1186824814.731108.294590@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
>> whether or not the chain is centered.
>
> Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...:)
>
> Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
> that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
> bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?
>
> Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
> if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
> build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
> the computer adjust it.
>
> If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
> expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
> motor and a computer chip?

You obviously have a brilliant future in engineering. What is it that you do
again?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 07:39:24
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> "lightninglad" <wordy@internode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:1186824814.731108.294590@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
>>> whether or not the chain is centered.
>>
>> Ah yes...spoken like a true engineer...:)
>>
>> Well, here's some thoughts. A badly aligned chain is noisy - detecting
>> that should be simple enough and in fact it's already done to detect
>> bearing wear in inductrial machinery. Next....?
>>
>> Electro mechanical devices can be cheaper than pure mechanical devices
>> if the electro mechanical device IS self adjusting - because you can
>> build a cheap mechanism with (releatively) poor tolerances and have
>> the computer adjust it.
>>
>> If electro mechanical chip driven computerised machinery is more
>> expensive, why have all the domestic appliances gone to a direct drive
>> motor and a computer chip?
>
> You obviously have a brilliant future in engineering. What is it that
> you do again?
>

ad hominem.

fact is, proximity detection is old hat. that crappy old /cheap/ inkjet
printer on your desk fully self-calibrates each time you switch it on.
just because /you/ may not be familiar with these design solutions
doesn't mean they don't exist!

Date: 11 Aug 2007 04:02:44
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical shifter
> as cheaply as a mechanical one

Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.

Bret

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:17:36
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
>> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>> shifter
>> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.

Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
length of one day?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:21:41
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <4yjvi.13559$tj6.9618@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

> "Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>>> electronics these days, there's no way that you can make an
>>> electro-mechanical shifter
>>> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>
>> Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>> the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
> length of one day?

What is the need to run a stepper motor when you're sitting on top of a
jockey wheel being powered by 0.4Kw of cyclist, and which power you can
tap just by releasing a clutch?

The power is there for the asking. All you need to do is to control when to
ask it. The power needed by the control electronics can be in terms of
fractions of a watt, and that too can be derived directly from the chain
without need for anything more than a capacitor to buffer the power.

Yes, pulling a little bit of power out of the drive train to run the
electronics is not zero-cost, but jockey-wheels are not exactly friction
free anyway.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Wise man with foot in mouth use opportunity to clean toes.
;; the Worlock

Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:10:03
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:5re1p4-cao.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <4yjvi.13559$tj6.9618@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>
>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
>> length of one day?
>
> What is the need to run a stepper motor when you're sitting on top of a
> jockey wheel being powered by 0.4Kw of cyclist, and which power you can
> tap just by releasing a clutch?

Maybe you missed the resident genius Kveck telling us that there wasn't any
clutches in the Mektronic.

> The power is there for the asking. All you need to do is to control when
> to
> ask it.

Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to precisely
position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the adjusting screw a
quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.

Simon, it is apparent that you have some education in mechanical design.
This whole argument began when I said that there wasn't anything to GAIN by
going to electronic shifting. It's only another failure point in an
otherwise highly reliable machine. But jim beam (named apparently from what
he is under the influence of ) seems to believe that derailleurs which are
almost the perfect mechanism, can be markedly improved with electronics.

> The power needed by the control electronics can be in terms of
> fractions of a watt, and that too can be derived directly from the chain
> without need for anything more than a capacitor to buffer the power.

Well, not quite but I agree that you don't need a lot of power if you're
willing to rob most of it from the drive train. But then you're either stuck
with the Mektronic mechanism which has fixed stops or complex sensors and
micro-adjustable position sensors which in the end would be quite a pain in
the neck without adding anything to reliability, reducing costs or weight.

The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added since
then has been only for performance on smooth roads.

It is possible to build reliable carbon bikes but not with a significant
reduction in weight. That isn't to say that there aren't certain advantages
to carbon bikes but there are significant disadvantages as well. It is
pretty difficult to beat a good well designed steel bike from Bob Jackson or
Waterford. (Queue in Donnelly's calculation showing that the difference in
weight can save 2 seconds on the Stelvio.)

Date: 11 Aug 2007 23:58:17
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <LApvi.13668$rR.6722@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:5re1p4-cao.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> in message <4yjvi.13559$tj6.9618@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
>> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>>
>>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
>>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
>>> the length of one day?
>>
>> What is the need to run a stepper motor when you're sitting on top of a
>> jockey wheel being powered by 0.4Kw of cyclist, and which power you can
>> tap just by releasing a clutch?
>
> Maybe you missed the resident genius Kveck telling us that there wasn't
> any clutches in the Mektronic.
>
>> The power is there for the asking. All you need to do is to control when
>> to
>> ask it.
>
> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.
>
> Simon, it is apparent that you have some education in mechanical design.
> This whole argument began when I said that there wasn't anything to GAIN
> by going to electronic shifting. It's only another failure point in an
> otherwise highly reliable machine. But jim beam (named apparently from
> what he is under the influence of ) seems to believe that derailleurs
> which are almost the perfect mechanism, can be markedly improved with
> electronics.

OK, I hear what you're saying and I'm not sure I agree. It's partly because
I'm a geek and like playing with toys. But also, one of my bikes - the one
I ride to work most days - is an old steel Raleigh. It suffers from frame
flex. And one of the problems that frame flex causes is that because the
parallelogram is attached to the back of the frame, and controlled by a
bit of wire that is under tension from the front of the frame, as the
front of the frame and the back of the frame move relative to one another
you get ghost shifts. This is exacerbated on my Raleigh, of course, by the
fact that it was designed for a five speed freewheel and now has a nine
speed cassette, so smaller distortions of the frame cause ghostshifts than
would have been the case when it was new...

With modern, closer tolerance derailleur trains the derailleur cage is
still attached to the back of the frame but the detents which control its
position are in the shifter mechanism at the front of the frame (or,
actually, on the handlebar...). Modern frames are not made out of wet
spaghetti, of course, but they still flex - and there are reasons why it's
good that they flex a bit in controlled ways. And the cables bend through
tighter and more relaxed radii as the steering moves, and so on. And this
causes the pantograph to move, and this causes the cage to move... And
from an engineering point of view this is just wrong.

The detents really ought to be in the derailleur mechanism itself.

[As an aside a pantograph is not really the ideal mechanism for something
that wants to track across a cassette at a fixed distance from the cogs -
particularly on a machine on which different sized cassettes may be used.
The optimum trajectory for a 12-21 cassette is quite different from that
for a 13-26 cassette. Mind you, I'm not saying I could design a better]

If the detents are going to be in the derailleur mechanism, then an
electronically triggered movement is quite a good idea. I can imagine a
mechanical system where a short tug on the cable released the mechanism
one detent, and a longer tug on the cable lifted the mechanism one detent,
with a user interface much like the SRAM 'double tap' (the cable being
slack between actuations). But an advantage of electronic actuation, as
Mektronic demonstrated, is you can have multiple switch positions so that
it becomes easy to change gear from the tops as well as the hoods and the
drops. And if you have electronic actuation, then taking the energy to
lift the mechanism from the chain seems to me clever and cool.

Also, it's easy to build an electrical wiring harness into a carbon
composite structure. Thus exposed cables could be a thing of the past, and
I'd see that as a positive thing.

>> The power needed by the control electronics can be in terms of
>> fractions of a watt, and that too can be derived directly from the chain
>> without need for anything more than a capacitor to buffer the power.
>
> Well, not quite but I agree that you don't need a lot of power if you're
> willing to rob most of it from the drive train. But then you're either
> stuck with the Mektronic mechanism which has fixed stops or complex
> sensors and micro-adjustable position sensors which in the end would be
> quite a pain in the neck without adding anything to reliability, reducing
> costs or weight.

I certainly think that if you're going to have electronic gear actuation on
a racing bike in a sporting context then the energy used to lift the
mechanism ought to come from the competitor's muscular effort in near real
time - if you're using stored power from a battery charged before the
event that ought to be seen as cheating.

> The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
> evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added since
> then has been only for performance on smooth roads.

I'm not at all sure I agree with that. I have two road bikes I ride
regularly, a modern carbon Dolan and the fifteen-year-old steel Raleigh.
The Dolan performs better than the Raleigh in every department. The slant
parallelogram was a significant improvement; the indexed shifter was a
significant improvement; integrating the shifter and the brake lever was a
significant improvement. All these things have happened in the past twenty
years. And none of them is as significant as the development of the carbon
monocoque frame.

But what's held cycling development back has been the luddite sabutage by
the UCI of any significant technical improvement. It's ludicrous, for
example, that we're still not riding bikes with monoblades front and
back - aerodynamics would be better, and changing wheels in race
conditions would be enormously faster (and you wouldn't need different
spare wheels for front and rear).

> It is possible to build reliable carbon bikes but not with a significant
> reduction in weight.

True. But the benefits of carbon aren't mainly about weight, in my opinion;
they're mainly about how precisely you can design the stiffness and
compliance of different parts of the structure. A good carbon frame may
weigh only a little less than a good steel one, but it can be much stiffer
laterally while being even more compliant vertically.

> That isn't to say that there aren't certain
> advantages to carbon bikes but there are significant disadvantages as
> well. It is pretty difficult to beat a good well designed steel bike from
> Bob Jackson or Waterford. (Queue in Donnelly's calculation showing that
> the difference in weight can save 2 seconds on the Stelvio.)

Yup, but the difference in not ghost-shifting when you're out of the saddle
and stomping can make far more than that!

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'd rather live in sybar-space

Date: 12 Aug 2007 01:09:10
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:ahr1p4-rc.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <LApvi.13668$rR.6722@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>
>>
>> Simon, it is apparent that you have some education in mechanical design.
>> This whole argument began when I said that there wasn't anything to GAIN
>> by going to electronic shifting. It's only another failure point in an
>> otherwise highly reliable machine. But jim beam (named apparently from
>> what he is under the influence of ) seems to believe that derailleurs
>> which are almost the perfect mechanism, can be markedly improved with
>> electronics.
>
> OK, I hear what you're saying and I'm not sure I agree. It's partly
> because
> I'm a geek and like playing with toys. But also, one of my bikes - the one
> I ride to work most days - is an old steel Raleigh. It suffers from frame
> flex. And one of the problems that frame flex causes is that because the
> parallelogram is attached to the back of the frame, and controlled by a
> bit of wire that is under tension from the front of the frame, as the
> front of the frame and the back of the frame move relative to one another
> you get ghost shifts. This is exacerbated on my Raleigh, of course, by the
> fact that it was designed for a five speed freewheel and now has a nine
> speed cassette, so smaller distortions of the frame cause ghostshifts than
> would have been the case when it was new...

Try this Simon - carefully grease the shift cables where they make the turn
at the bottom bracket and I'm reasonably sure that your ghost shifts will
disappear. I'm 6'4" and weigh 200 lbs and I can't cause a bike to ghost
shift when properly set up. I've had a lot of Peugeots, Gitanes, old
Bottechias, Schwinns and a lot of garbage bikes and none of them would ghost
shift even though the bay area has a lot of hard climbing.

> With modern, closer tolerance derailleur trains the derailleur cage is
> still attached to the back of the frame but the detents which control its
> position are in the shifter mechanism at the front of the frame (or,
> actually, on the handlebar...).

I can't imagine someone flexing a C50. The C40 is so stiff that you can feel
a distinct difference in handling going through rough 40 mph downhill esses.

> The detents really ought to be in the derailleur mechanism itself.

That's a point of argument. Shimano started out that way and it didn't work
well.

> [As an aside a pantograph is not really the ideal mechanism for something
> that wants to track across a cassette at a fixed distance from the cogs -
> particularly on a machine on which different sized cassettes may be used.
> The optimum trajectory for a 12-21 cassette is quite different from that
> for a 13-26 cassette. Mind you, I'm not saying I could design a better]

We don't care about ideal. We care about workable and the slant
parallelogram is the best working mechanism to date.

> If the detents are going to be in the derailleur mechanism, then an
> electronically triggered movement is quite a good idea. I can imagine a
> mechanical system where a short tug on the cable released the mechanism
> one detent, and a longer tug on the cable lifted the mechanism one detent,
> with a user interface much like the SRAM 'double tap' (the cable being
> slack between actuations). But an advantage of electronic actuation, as
> Mektronic demonstrated, is you can have multiple switch positions so that
> it becomes easy to change gear from the tops as well as the hoods and the
> drops. And if you have electronic actuation, then taking the energy to
> lift the mechanism from the chain seems to me clever and cool.

The bottom line is this - todays races could be just as easily won with
friction shifting 7 speed barend shifters as STI. The complex mechanisms
being used are not improvements - they are marketing devices.

> Also, it's easy to build an electrical wiring harness into a carbon
> composite structure. Thus exposed cables could be a thing of the past, and
> I'd see that as a positive thing.

That's a personal choice on your part. I don't see anything in it at all.

>> Well, not quite but I agree that you don't need a lot of power if you're
>> willing to rob most of it from the drive train. But then you're either
>> stuck with the Mektronic mechanism which has fixed stops or complex
>> sensors and micro-adjustable position sensors which in the end would be
>> quite a pain in the neck without adding anything to reliability, reducing
>> costs or weight.
>
> I certainly think that if you're going to have electronic gear actuation
> on
> a racing bike in a sporting context then the energy used to lift the
> mechanism ought to come from the competitor's muscular effort in near real
> time - if you're using stored power from a battery charged before the
> event that ought to be seen as cheating.

Isn't muscle energy stored before the event? (Rolls eyes) Now your
suggesting not just a mechanical mechanism to move everything to the proper
position but also a generator to power the electronics. Time for Donnelly to
explain the facts of life visa vi power.

>> The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
>> evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added since
>> then has been only for performance on smooth roads.
>
> I'm not at all sure I agree with that. I have two road bikes I ride
> regularly, a modern carbon Dolan and the fifteen-year-old steel Raleigh.

What difference do you see between your Raleigh and your Dolan? What about
comparing my Basso to your Dolan?

Date: 12 Aug 2007 10:43:40
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <W4tvi.15270$zA4.1105@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

>> I certainly think that if you're going to have electronic gear actuation
>> on
>> a racing bike in a sporting context then the energy used to lift the
>> mechanism ought to come from the competitor's muscular effort in near
>> real time - if you're using stored power from a battery charged before
>> the event that ought to be seen as cheating.
>
> Isn't muscle energy stored before the event? (Rolls eyes) Now your
> suggesting not just a mechanical mechanism to move everything to the
> proper position but also a generator to power the electronics. Time for
> Donnelly to explain the facts of life visa vi power.

As I understand it, the Mektronic mechanism does use the competitor's
muscular energy to shift the chain - that's what's so bloody elegant about
it. It uses batteries to power the computer, though. But for all the juice
required to run an ARM or an H8/300 or something, a dynamo built into one
of the derailleur jockey wheels would work fine and increase chain drag
only fractionally.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'there are no solutions, only precipitates'

Date: 11 Aug 2007 19:44:27
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:ahr1p4-rc.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> in message <LApvi.13668$rR.6722@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
>> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Simon, it is apparent that you have some education in mechanical design.
>>> This whole argument began when I said that there wasn't anything to GAIN
>>> by going to electronic shifting. It's only another failure point in an
>>> otherwise highly reliable machine. But jim beam (named apparently from
>>> what he is under the influence of ) seems to believe that derailleurs
>>> which are almost the perfect mechanism, can be markedly improved with
>>> electronics.
>>
>> OK, I hear what you're saying and I'm not sure I agree. It's partly
>> because
>> I'm a geek and like playing with toys. But also, one of my bikes - the
>> one
>> I ride to work most days - is an old steel Raleigh. It suffers from frame
>> flex. And one of the problems that frame flex causes is that because the
>> parallelogram is attached to the back of the frame, and controlled by a
>> bit of wire that is under tension from the front of the frame, as the
>> front of the frame and the back of the frame move relative to one another
>> you get ghost shifts. This is exacerbated on my Raleigh, of course, by
>> the
>> fact that it was designed for a five speed freewheel and now has a nine
>> speed cassette, so smaller distortions of the frame cause ghostshifts
>> than
>> would have been the case when it was new...
>
> Try this Simon - carefully grease the shift cables where they make the
> turn at the bottom bracket and I'm reasonably sure that your ghost
> shifts will disappear. I'm 6'4" and weigh 200 lbs and I can't cause a
> bike to ghost shift when properly set up. I've had a lot of Peugeots,
> Gitanes, old Bottechias, Schwinns and a lot of garbage bikes and none of
> them would ghost shift even though the bay area has a lot of hard climbing.
>
>> With modern, closer tolerance derailleur trains the derailleur cage is
>> still attached to the back of the frame but the detents which control its
>> position are in the shifter mechanism at the front of the frame (or,
>> actually, on the handlebar...).
>
> I can't imagine someone flexing a C50. The C40 is so stiff that you can
> feel a distinct difference in handling going through rough 40 mph
> downhill esses.
>
>> The detents really ought to be in the derailleur mechanism itself.
>
> That's a point of argument. Shimano started out that way and it didn't
> work well.
>
>> [As an aside a pantograph is not really the ideal mechanism for something
>> that wants to track across a cassette at a fixed distance from the cogs -
>> particularly on a machine on which different sized cassettes may be used.
>> The optimum trajectory for a 12-21 cassette is quite different from that
>> for a 13-26 cassette. Mind you, I'm not saying I could design a better]
>
> We don't care about ideal. We care about workable and the slant
> parallelogram is the best working mechanism to date.
>
>> If the detents are going to be in the derailleur mechanism, then an
>> electronically triggered movement is quite a good idea. I can imagine a
>> mechanical system where a short tug on the cable released the mechanism
>> one detent, and a longer tug on the cable lifted the mechanism one
>> detent,
>> with a user interface much like the SRAM 'double tap' (the cable being
>> slack between actuations). But an advantage of electronic actuation, as
>> Mektronic demonstrated, is you can have multiple switch positions so that
>> it becomes easy to change gear from the tops as well as the hoods and the
>> drops. And if you have electronic actuation, then taking the energy to
>> lift the mechanism from the chain seems to me clever and cool.
>
> The bottom line is this - todays races could be just as easily won with
> friction shifting 7 speed barend shifters as STI. The complex mechanisms
> being used are not improvements - they are marketing devices.
>
>> Also, it's easy to build an electrical wiring harness into a carbon
>> composite structure. Thus exposed cables could be a thing of the past,
>> and
>> I'd see that as a positive thing.
>
> That's a personal choice on your part. I don't see anything in it at all.
>
>>> Well, not quite but I agree that you don't need a lot of power if you're
>>> willing to rob most of it from the drive train. But then you're either
>>> stuck with the Mektronic mechanism which has fixed stops or complex
>>> sensors and micro-adjustable position sensors which in the end would be
>>> quite a pain in the neck without adding anything to reliability,
>>> reducing
>>> costs or weight.
>>
>> I certainly think that if you're going to have electronic gear
>> actuation on
>> a racing bike in a sporting context then the energy used to lift the
>> mechanism ought to come from the competitor's muscular effort in near
>> real
>> time - if you're using stored power from a battery charged before the
>> event that ought to be seen as cheating.
>
> Isn't muscle energy stored before the event? (Rolls eyes) Now your
> suggesting not just a mechanical mechanism to move everything to the
> proper position but also a generator to power the electronics. Time for
> Donnelly to explain the facts of life visa vi power.
>
>>> The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
>>> evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added
>>> since
>>> then has been only for performance on smooth roads.
>>
>> I'm not at all sure I agree with that. I have two road bikes I ride
>> regularly, a modern carbon Dolan and the fifteen-year-old steel Raleigh.
>
> What difference do you see between your Raleigh and your Dolan? What
> about comparing my Basso to your Dolan?
>

gainsay is not an argument. try again.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:26:58
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:5re1p4-cao.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
>> in message <4yjvi.13559$tj6.9618@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
>> Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:
>>>
>>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
>>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
>>> length of one day?
>>
>> What is the need to run a stepper motor when you're sitting on top of a
>> jockey wheel being powered by 0.4Kw of cyclist, and which power you can
>> tap just by releasing a clutch?
>
> Maybe you missed the resident genius Kveck telling us that there wasn't
> any clutches in the Mektronic.
>
>> The power is there for the asking. All you need to do is to control
>> when to
>> ask it.
>
> Indeed but the group was talking about using a stepping motor to
> precisely position the RD so that they wouldn't have to turn the
> adjusting screw a quarter turn once a year between tune-ups.

that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you
clearly don't do any serious mileage.

>
> Simon, it is apparent that you have some education in mechanical design.
> This whole argument began when I said that there wasn't anything to GAIN
> by going to electronic shifting. It's only another failure point in an
> otherwise highly reliable machine.

er, one of my cars has an electronically managed stepping motor that
controls the engine's idle speed. it's 19 years old. and it works
perfectly. now, where's this illusory bullshit about reliability come from?

> But jim beam (named apparently from
> what he is under the influence of ) seems to believe that derailleurs
> which are almost the perfect mechanism, can be markedly improved with
> electronics.
>
>> The power needed by the control electronics can be in terms of
>> fractions of a watt, and that too can be derived directly from the chain
>> without need for anything more than a capacitor to buffer the power.
>
> Well, not quite but I agree that you don't need a lot of power if you're
> willing to rob most of it from the drive train. But then you're either
> stuck with the Mektronic mechanism which has fixed stops or complex
> sensors and micro-adjustable position sensors which in the end would be
> quite a pain in the neck without adding anything to reliability,
> reducing costs or weight.

eh?

>
> The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
> evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added
> since then has been only for performance on smooth roads.

eh?

>
> It is possible to build reliable carbon bikes but not with a significant
> reduction in weight.

eh?

> That isn't to say that there aren't certain
> advantages to carbon bikes but there are significant disadvantages as
> well. It is pretty difficult to beat a good well designed steel bike
> from Bob Jackson or Waterford. (Queue in Donnelly's calculation showing
> that the difference in weight can save 2 seconds on the Stelvio.)

what a crock!

Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:12:43
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:BeydnYB8nt0-tCPbnZ2dnUVZ_oaonZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> that's highly revealing - if you can make a comment like that, you clearly
> don't do any serious mileage.

I'm at 4500 miles right now - what about you?

> er, one of my cars has an electronically managed stepping motor that
> controls the engine's idle speed. it's 19 years old. and it works
> perfectly. now, where's this illusory bullshit about reliability come
> from?

Why don't you make and market one of these wonderful electronic shifters
you're talking about. Or are you all talk?

>> The modern bicycle is the end result of a hundred and fifty years of
>> evolution. It achieved it's peak in the 1960's and everything added since
>> then has been only for performance on smooth roads.
>
> eh?

Oh yeah, you're one of those guys who thinks that a 19 year old car is old.

>> It is possible to build reliable carbon bikes but not with a significant
>> reduction in weight.
>
> eh?

I have a Look KG, a Time VXR and a Colnago C40. What is your experience
again?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 07:34:35
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>>> electronics
>>> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>>> shifter
>>> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>
>> Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>> the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
> length of one day?
>

what is the power cost of running a headlight for one night?

Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:02:22
From: jrees@jrees.net
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 9, 12:50 am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> In article <pJGdnY-HzqVqEifbnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Howard Kveck wrote:
> > > In article <j72dnRdTkd6nGSfbnZ2dnUVZ_v_in...@speakeasy.net>,
> > > jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
> > >> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> > >>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
> > >>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>
> > >> eh? maybe you should re-read?
>
> > > You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the w=
ay,
> > > the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it was=
n't the
> > > mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the electronics a=
nd the
> > > wiring in particular. They frequently stopped working due to miniscul=
e amounts
> > > of moisture. They did stay in the gear they were in when it quit or y=
ou could
> > > stop and manually move it over to an appropriate gear. There are no '=
clutches"
> > > in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.
>
> > sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> > resources for this?
>
> I don't know of any, sorry.
>
> --

I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d=E2=80=99Oro when I wanted
them on another bike.

I used them because I don=E2=80=99t have any fingers on my right hand; just
part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don=E2=80=99t know which
one :-) )

The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
my =E2=80=98thumb=E2=80=99.

They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
ace.

On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
I=E2=80=99m in Italy, I=E2=80=99m gonna ride even if I only have a couple o=
f gears.
It magically started working outside.

When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
into me.

It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
only available system that permits this.

The now long gone French team, =E2=80=9CBig Mat=E2=80=9D actually used Mekt=
ronic in
the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X=E2=80=99s

Anyone want mine =EF=81=8A

Date: 10 Aug 2007 17:56:36
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

jrees@jrees.net wrote:
> On Aug 9, 12:50 am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>> In article <pJGdnY-HzqVqEifbnZ2dnUVZ_jKdn...@speakeasy.net>,
>> jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Howard Kveck wrote:
>>>> In article <j72dnRdTkd6nGSfbnZ2dnUVZ_v_in...@speakeasy.net>,
>>>> jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>>>>>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>>>>> eh? maybe you should re-read?
>>>> You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way,
>>>> the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the
>>>> mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the
>>>> wiring in particular. They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts
>>>> of moisture. They did stay in the gear they were in when it quit or you could
>>>> stop and manually move it over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches"
>>>> in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.
>>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>>> resources for this?
>> I don't know of any, sorry.
>>
>> --
>
> I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
> one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
> standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d’Oro when I wanted
> them on another bike.
>
> I used them because I don’t have any fingers on my right hand; just
> part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don’t know which
> one :-) )
>
> The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
> left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
> button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
> twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
> my ‘thumb’.
>
> They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
> ace.
>
> On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
> taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
> turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
> interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
> I’m in Italy, I’m gonna ride even if I only have a couple of gears.
> It magically started working outside.
>
> When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
> causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
> was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
> into me.
>
> It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
> you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
> only available system that permits this.
>
> The now long gone French team, “Big Mat” actually used Mektronic in
> the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
> everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
> der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X’s

informative post!

>
>
> Anyone want mine 
>

Date: 10 Aug 2007 21:26:22
From: William R. Mattil
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

jrees@jrees.net wrote:

>
> I have two complete Mektronic sets gathering dust in my garage. I got
> one set when I bought a Cannondale R4000 that came with them
> standard. I bought the second set from Cycles d’Oro when I wanted
> them on another bike.
>
> I used them because I don’t have any fingers on my right hand; just
> part of a thumb and a part of one other finger (don’t know which
> one :-) )
>
> The Mektronic system offered an extra shifter that I placed on the
> left bar right below the brake lever, it had an up button and a down
> button, and I could shift just by clicking them. I was also able to
> twiddle the button they had on the top of the right brake lever with
> my ‘thumb’.
>
> They worked well enough, but two things made me pull them off for dura-
> ace.
>
> On a trip to Italy, I could not get my bike to shift properly after
> taking it out of the case and putting the bar, seats, etc back on. It
> turned out the fluorescent lamps in the room I was working in was
> interfering with the system. I discovered this when I said, *$# it,
> I’m in Italy, I’m gonna ride even if I only have a couple of gears.
> It magically started working outside.
>
> When I started riding more in fast groups, the occasional delay was
> causing problems when there was an attack or we hit a big climb. I
> was afraid I was going to start a crash when someone got their wheel
> into me.
>
> It is still popular with some triathletes and time trial people, as
> you can shift in the areobars and also in the cow horns. Still the
> only available system that permits this.
>
> The now long gone French team, “Big Mat” actually used Mektronic in
> the TdF on their red Time bicycles. They may have actually just about
> everything Mavic made on them, except the wheels! SSC brakes, front
> der (mechanical). What wheels did they use? Spinergy REV-X’s
>
>
> Anyone want mine 
>

I'd be interested - contact me off list.

Bill

Date: 10 Aug 2007 09:11:05
From: Tuschinski
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:

Some theorising

1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain. It can be foreseen that
this will make finer tolerances possible (overshift to move the chain,
then at the right moment adjusted back). So perhaps we can narrow the
rear end, or squeeze in more gears.
2. Weight. Though the prototypes are clunky, a botton+ wire (or button
+ remote) weigh less than cable+lever and are conceivably enough to
offset battery.
3. Prize. An sti/ergo lever is most likely more expensive than chips
mass produced rolling of the band.

I think 3 can be very important.

And about reliability: Mavic (life) prototypes shouldn't be seen as
par for the course. Water etc hardly should be an issue, considering
its actually pretty simple stuff.

I'm not a believer in a sense that I think current mechanical systems
are obsolete and are in need for replacement, but I can imagine there
are some foreseeable advantages. Prize will be a biggie.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 02:38:15
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Tuschinski" <Tuschinski@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186762265.739726.228730@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
> sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:
>
> Some theorising
>
> 1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
> enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.

I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments that
require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
something in this process about which you can educate me.

Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
whether or not the chain is centered. Aside from the fact that the physical
problems alone would pretty much prevent that - metal particals and oil all
over everything preventing fine detection - it would require additional
power and the idea is to somehow provide superior shifting without
increasing weight.

And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of electronics
these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical shifter
as cheaply as a mechanical one. Just think about those two terms which
indicate TWO entirely different mechanisms to provide what one presently
does.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 05:02:35
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On 2007-08-11, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo > wrote:
> "Tuschinski" <Tuschinski@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1186762265.739726.228730@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
>> sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:
>>
>> Some theorising
>>
>> 1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
>> enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.
>
> I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments that
> require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
> something in this process about which you can educate me.
>
> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
> whether or not the chain is centered.

How about a microphone listening for the tell-tale rattle? That's how
"anti-knock" sensors work on some cars.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 07:26:12
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-08-11, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo> wrote:
>> "Tuschinski" <Tuschinski@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1186762265.739726.228730@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>> Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
>>> sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:
>>>
>>> Some theorising
>>>
>>> 1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
>>> enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.
>> I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments that
>> require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
>> something in this process about which you can educate me.
>>
>> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
>> whether or not the chain is centered.
>
> How about a microphone listening for the tell-tale rattle? That's how
> "anti-knock" sensors work on some cars.

indeed - although it would inform as to the magnitude of misalignment,
not the direction in which it was. but i think this is academic - he
doesn't seem interested in addressing the possibilities.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 20:43:29
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Tuschinski" <Tuschinski@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1186762265.739726.228730@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
>> sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:
>>
>> Some theorising
>>
>> 1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
>> enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain.
>
> I'm an electronics engineer presently working on medical instruments
> that require moving probes in the 10's of microns range. Perhaps there's
> something in this process about which you can educate me.
>
> Perhaps you're suggesting that there might be some method of detecting
> whether or not the chain is centered.

eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on them?

> Aside from the fact that the
> physical problems alone would pretty much prevent that - metal particals
> and oil all over everything preventing fine detection

but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.

> - it would require
> additional power and the idea is to somehow provide superior shifting
> without increasing weight.

who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
competition, but can be made much lighter. just use the spare
"lightness" to "solve" the shifter weight problem if it offers better
shifting.

>
> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
> electronics these days, there's no way that you can make an
> electro-mechanical shifter as cheaply as a mechanical one.

since when was cost an issue? dura-ace cranks used to cost $199 for
octalink. the modern d-a costs $385 on sale. [that's nearly double you
know] and people still buy them. along with their $4,500 frames, etc.

> Just think
> about those two terms which indicate TWO entirely different mechanisms
> to provide what one presently does.

relax and enjoy the darwinian experience - if it works, it'll happen.
if it's a p.o.s., it won't.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 05:03:48
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On 2007-08-11, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
[...]
>> - it would require
>> additional power and the idea is to somehow provide superior shifting
>> without increasing weight.
>
> who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
> competition, but can be made much lighter. just use the spare
> "lightness" to "solve" the shifter weight problem if it offers better
> shifting.

You would also save some weight on the brifters.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:16:17
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
> antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you detect
> the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on them?

What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling chain is
centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?

Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed setups.

> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.

You really don't understand what you're talking about.

> who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
> competition, but can be made much lighter.

Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"? Maybe
you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the drop of a
hat. As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a dog -
a young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete unhurt
while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off cleanly and he
went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he is OK but if you're
suggesting there's some sort of excess strength somewhere in a bicycle
you're misled.

> since when was cost an issue?

By all means go buy a Mektronic which sold like hotcakes.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 07:33:48
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
>> antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
>> detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on
>> them?
>
> What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling
> chain is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?

eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed
derailleur /can't/ do that.

>
> Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed
> setups.

red herring.

>
>> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.
>
> You really don't understand what you're talking about.

yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in both
the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like would be
required for a derailleur.

>
>> who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
>> competition, but can be made much lighter.
>
> Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"? Maybe
> you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the drop of
> a hat.

ok, now you're becoming irrational.

> As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a
> dog - a young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete
> unhurt while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off cleanly
> and he went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he is OK but
> if you're suggesting there's some sort of excess strength somewhere in a
> bicycle you're misled.

weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.

>
>> since when was cost an issue?
>
> By all means go buy a Mektronic which sold like hotcakes.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:51:07
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:JJadnQr-o51TVSDbnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>
>>> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
>>> antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
>>> detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on
>>> them?
>>
>> What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling chain
>> is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?
>
> eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed derailleur
> /can't/ do that.

Psst - they don't NEED to do that. Again, WHAT are you gaining if you go to
electronic shifting?

>> Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed
>> setups.
>
> red herring.

I didn't expect you to understand the problem and you just proved it.

>>> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.
>>
>> You really don't understand what you're talking about.
>
> yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in both
> the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like would be
> required for a derailleur.

No - YOU were bleating about "self adjusting". Proximity has nothing to do
with that but you aren't able to understand the problem from an engineering
perspective.

>>> who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
>>> competition, but can be made much lighter.
>>
>> Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"? Maybe
>> you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the drop of a
>> hat.
>
> ok, now you're becoming irrational.

You are the one that hasn't a clue of the world around you. Perhaps you
ought to learn something before pretending you know about it.

>> As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a dog - a
>> young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete unhurt
>> while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off cleanly and he
>> went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he is OK but if
>> you're suggesting there's some sort of excess strength somewhere in a
>> bicycle you're misled.
>
> weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
> NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.

Perhaps you can explain that?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 14:05:56
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:JJadnQr-o51TVSDbnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>>
>>>> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use
>>>> for antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't
>>>> you detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse
>>>> fingers on them?
>>>
>>> What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling
>>> chain is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?
>>
>> eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed
>> derailleur /can't/ do that.
>
> Psst - they don't NEED to do that. Again, WHAT are you gaining if you go
> to electronic shifting?

psst - in what way could a properly designed self-adjusting system
possibly shift worse than a manual system?

>
>>> Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed
>>> setups.
>>
>> red herring.
>
> I didn't expect you to understand the problem and you just proved it.

it's not a clearance issue guy!!! it's an issue of determining basis
coordinates and positioning accordingly. a red herring is still a red
herring regardless of specious allusions.

>
>>>> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.
>>>
>>> You really don't understand what you're talking about.
>>
>> yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in
>> both the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like
>> would be required for a derailleur.
>
> No - YOU were bleating about "self adjusting". Proximity has nothing to
> do with that but you aren't able to understand the problem from an
> engineering perspective.

you really don't get it. if you wanted a self-adjusting system, you'd
/have/ to detect proximity. duh.

>
>>>> who said that? besides, bikes are limited to the uci limit in
>>>> competition, but can be made much lighter.
>>>
>>> Where are you getting the idea that bikes can be "much lighter"?
>>> Maybe you've missed the fact that today's bicycle can dissolve at the
>>> drop of a hat.
>>
>> ok, now you're becoming irrational.
>
> You are the one that hasn't a clue of the world around you. Perhaps you
> ought to learn something before pretending you know about it.

er, perhaps you're looking in a mirror when saying that?

>
>>> As I pointed out in early July, I was riding with a guy who hit a dog
>>> - a young medium sized Labrador Retriever. The dog ran away complete
>>> unhurt while the front fork and headtube on his Parlee broke off
>>> cleanly and he went down and broke his neck in two places. Luckily he
>>> is OK but if you're suggesting there's some sort of excess strength
>>> somewhere in a bicycle you're misled.
>>
>> weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
>> NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.
>
> Perhaps you can explain that?

sure - it's easy. weight != strength! you say you're an engineer, right?

Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:00:14
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:AfydnWmtgNIouSPbnZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:JJadnQr-o51TVSDbnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use for
>>>>> antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why can't you
>>>>> detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient pulse fingers on
>>>>> them?
>>>>
>>>> What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling
>>>> chain is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?
>>>
>>> eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed
>>> derailleur /can't/ do that.
>>
>> Psst - they don't NEED to do that. Again, WHAT are you gaining if you go
>> to electronic shifting?
>
> psst - in what way could a properly designed self-adjusting system
> possibly shift worse than a manual system?

WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING? Are you stupid or something?

>>>> Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's 10-speed
>>>> setups.
>>>
>>> red herring.
>>
>> I didn't expect you to understand the problem and you just proved it.
>
> it's not a clearance issue guy!!! it's an issue of determining basis
> coordinates and positioning accordingly. a red herring is still a red
> herring regardless of specious allusions.

Proving yet again that you simply don't grasp the engineering issues.

>>>>> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.
>>>>
>>>> You really don't understand what you're talking about.
>>>
>>> yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in both
>>> the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like would be
>>> required for a derailleur.
>>
>> No - YOU were bleating about "self adjusting". Proximity has nothing to
>> do with that but you aren't able to understand the problem from an
>> engineering perspective.
>
> you really don't get it. if you wanted a self-adjusting system, you'd
> /have/ to detect proximity. duh.

You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up. I'm
getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying "it's not a
clearance issue".

>>> weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
>>> NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.
>>
>> Perhaps you can explain that?
>
> sure - it's easy. weight != strength! you say you're an engineer, right?

See my comment above.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 07:43:25
From: Lou Holtman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Date: 11 Aug 2007 15:19:01
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:AfydnWmtgNIouSPbnZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:JJadnQr-o51TVSDbnZ2dnUVZ_tWtnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:84-dnUtYQOr_rSDbnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> eh? if you can have the kind of proximity detector that cars use
>>>>>> for antilock brakes, or even detect fingers on mousepads, why
>>>>>> can't you detect the position of 10 disks with nice convenient
>>>>>> pulse fingers on them?
>>>>>
>>>>> What exactly does this have to do with detecting whether a flayling
>>>>> chain is centered on the cog in the small middle or large ring?
>>>>
>>>> eh? a conventional derailleur doesn't do that. and an indexed
>>>> derailleur /can't/ do that.
>>>
>>> Psst - they don't NEED to do that. Again, WHAT are you gaining if you
>>> go to electronic shifting?
>>
>> psst - in what way could a properly designed self-adjusting system
>> possibly shift worse than a manual system?
>
> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING? Are you stupid or something?
>
>>>>> Please explain to us what sort of clearances are in today's
>>>>> 10-speed setups.
>>>>
>>>> red herring.
>>>
>>> I didn't expect you to understand the problem and you just proved it.
>>
>> it's not a clearance issue guy!!! it's an issue of determining basis
>> coordinates and positioning accordingly. a red herring is still a red
>> herring regardless of specious allusions.
>
> Proving yet again that you simply don't grasp the engineering issues.
>
>>>>>> but you have that same issue with cars. even donuts on mousepads.
>>>>>
>>>>> You really don't understand what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> yes i do. you were bleating about ability to detect proximity. in
>>>> both the above examples, solutions are cheap and robust. just like
>>>> would be required for a derailleur.
>>>
>>> No - YOU were bleating about "self adjusting". Proximity has nothing
>>> to do with that but you aren't able to understand the problem from an
>>> engineering perspective.
>>
>> you really don't get it. if you wanted a self-adjusting system, you'd
>> /have/ to detect proximity. duh.
>
> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up. I'm
> getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying "it's not
> a clearance issue".
>
>>>> weight != strength. red herrings about alleged crash injuries have
>>>> NOTHING to do derailleurs or mechanism weights.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can explain that?
>>
>> sure - it's easy. weight != strength! you say you're an engineer,
>> right?
>
> See my comment above.
>

dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in to
bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?

instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of bizarre
ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.

get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 00:55:27
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:PvidnQs1_M9LqCPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING?
>>
>> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up. I'm
>> getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying "it's not
>> a clearance issue".
>>
>
> dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in to
> bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?
>
> instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of bizarre
> ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.
>
> get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.

And yet strangely you haven't answered any of the above charges.

Let me make this easier for you:

1) What do you mean by "self-adjusting"?
2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of the
position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the limiting
factor?
3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and it's
advantages?
4) Since I weigh 200 lbs and my Basso Loto ready to ride weights 22 lbs what
precise advantage do you see in my riding my C40 which weighs 19 lbs ready
to ride?
5) And simply for the ad hominine effect - since you're commenting on
electronic derailleurs and materials science as if you actually understood
these things perhaps you could tell us what you do for a living and why you
haven't taken over the industry by the sheer genius of your will?

Date: 12 Aug 2007 14:20:16
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <3Usvi.13680$rR.4530@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >, Tom
Kunich ('cyclintom@yahoo. com') wrote:

> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:PvidnQs1_M9LqCPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING?
>>>
>>> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up. I'm
>>> getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying "it's
>>> not a clearance issue".
>>>
>>
>> dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in to
>> bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?
>>
>> instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of bizarre
>> ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.
>>
>> get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.
>
> And yet strangely you haven't answered any of the above charges.
>
> Let me make this easier for you:
>
> 1) What do you mean by "self-adjusting"?

Self adjusting clearly means that the derailleur automatically finds the
sweet spot for each cog. This actually wouldn't be at all difficult, since
on all modern derailleurs the upper jockey wheel has considerable lateral
float. Adjust the position of the cage so that the jockey is in the
mid-position of its float, and you're spot on; and there wouldn't be any
difficulty in doing that dynamically.

> 2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of the
> position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the limiting
> factor?

Pass. I've no idea.

> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and it's
> advantages?

Well, being self adjusting would be one. But more significantly, a fully
automatic transmission would be another - the rider could set his desired
cadence, and the gear-train would shift automatically to keep him as close
to that as possible. This requires, of course, that the derailleur shifts
reliably under full load, as the rider wouldn't necessarily know when it
was going to shift; but all the reviews of the mektronic I've seen state
that it was good at that.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; So, before proceeding with definitive screwing, choose the
;; position most congenital.
-- instructions for fitting bicycle handlebars

Date: 13 Aug 2007 01:46:38
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Simon Brooke" <simon@jasmine.org.uk > wrote in message
news:g1e3p4-p97.ln1@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> in message <3Usvi.13680$rR.4530@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Tom
>
> Self adjusting clearly means that the derailleur automatically finds the
> sweet spot for each cog. This actually wouldn't be at all difficult, since
> on all modern derailleurs the upper jockey wheel has considerable lateral
> float. Adjust the position of the cage so that the jockey is in the
> mid-position of its float, and you're spot on; and there wouldn't be any
> difficulty in doing that dynamically.

Do you really think that a floating pulley is a reliable detector? (Totally
aside from the fact that building a mechanism that would find "straight"
would be more of a challenge than you're suggesting.) The present day cogs
are NOT repeat NOT perfectly aligned and hence the move back and forth a
slight amount, more on some cogs than others. An electronic mechanism that
relied on a follower would be wasting power moving all the time.

I don't know about you but in my own personal experience I've found that if
a brake shoe drags even so little that you have to lift the wheel off of the
ground and give it a good spin and can only hear a slight "chuff, chuff,
chuff" from a slightly misaligned wheel, that after a long ride I'm falling
down tired. Imagine what it would take out of you to drain off a couple of
watts for such motions? (Remember that we're not deriving straight
mechanical motion from the jockey wheel like the Mektronic.)

>> 2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of the
>> position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the limiting
>> factor?
>
> Pass. I've no idea.

Our friend doesn't seem to understand the difference in the terms and how
they're significant.

>> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and it's
>> advantages?
>
> Well, being self adjusting would be one. But more significantly, a fully
> automatic transmission would be another - the rider could set his desired
> cadence, and the gear-train would shift automatically to keep him as close
> to that as possible. This requires, of course, that the derailleur shifts
> reliably under full load, as the rider wouldn't necessarily know when it
> was going to shift; but all the reviews of the mektronic I've seen state
> that it was good at that.

In any case you would be handicapping anyone that was generating additional
power in order to accomplish so very little. Hell, today I was continuously
irritated because the front derailleur couldn't be properly adjusted in one
gear. If the Campy stuff only had a little more resolution...

Date: 12 Aug 2007 12:37:11
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Simon Brooke wrote:
> ...
>> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and it's
>> advantages?
>
> Well, being self adjusting would be one. But more significantly, a fully
> automatic transmission would be another - the rider could set his desired
> cadence, and the gear-train would shift automatically to keep him as close
> to that as possible. This requires, of course, that the derailleur shifts
> reliably under full load, as the rider wouldn't necessarily know when it
> was going to shift; but all the reviews of the mektronic I've seen state
> that it was good at that.

ANY shifting that occurs without the rider requesting it is bad. Imagine
climbing a hill seated and starting to bog down just before the point of
inflection of vertical curvature, and standing to get past that point.
Just as you stand, the goddamn computer decides to down-shift, with the
resulting loss of resistance on the pedal that you are using to support
your weight. No thank you.

I HATE automatic transmission in motor vehicles, because of the
down-shifts that occur when one wants just a little more power in the
same gear. On bicycles, they are an even worse idea.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
�Twisting may help if yawl can chew gum and walk.� - gene daniels

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 11 Aug 2007 19:43:22
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:PvidnQs1_M9LqCPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>
>>> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING?
>>>
>>> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up.
>>> I'm getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying
>>> "it's not a clearance issue".
>>>
>>
>> dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in to
>> bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?
>>
>> instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of
>> bizarre ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.
>>
>> get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.
>
> And yet strangely you haven't answered any of the above charges.

i don't usually bother with red herrings - that's why.

>
> Let me make this easier for you:
>
> 1) What do you mean by "self-adjusting"?
> 2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of the
> position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the limiting
> factor?
> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and it's
> advantages?
> 4) Since I weigh 200 lbs and my Basso Loto ready to ride weights 22 lbs
> what precise advantage do you see in my riding my C40 which weighs 19
> lbs ready to ride?
> 5) And simply for the ad hominine effect - since you're commenting on
> electronic derailleurs and materials science as if you actually
> understood these things perhaps you could tell us what you do for a
> living and why you haven't taken over the industry by the sheer genius
> of your will?
>
>

and i will not get into bullshit red herrings dressed up as "questions",
[with someone that can't spell] that simply rehash stuff already covered
up thread. nor will i get into a credentials pissing contest with
someone who doesn't evidence or contribute anything of value.

all you're doing is arguing, you're not arguing the points. you need to
either go and get laid or try to say something useful. your call.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:37:46
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

jim beam wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:PvidnQs1_M9LqCPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING?
>>>>
>>>> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up.
>>>> I'm getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying
>>>> "it's not a clearance issue".
>>>>
>>>
>>> dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in to
>>> bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?
>>>
>>> instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of
>>> bizarre ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.
>>>
>>> get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.
>>
>> And yet strangely you haven't answered any of the above charges.
>
> i don't usually bother with red herrings - that's why.
>
>>
>> Let me make this easier for you:
>>
>> 1) What do you mean by "self-adjusting"?
>> 2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of the
>> position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the limiting
>> factor?
>> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and
>> it's advantages?
>> 4) Since I weigh 200 lbs and my Basso Loto ready to ride weights 22
>> lbs what precise advantage do you see in my riding my C40 which weighs
>> 19 lbs ready to ride?
>> 5) And simply for the ad hominine effect - since you're commenting on
>> electronic derailleurs and materials science as if you actually
>> understood these things perhaps you could tell us what you do for a
>> living and why you haven't taken over the industry by the sheer genius
>> of your will?
>>
>>
>
> and i will not get into bullshit red herrings dressed up as "questions",
> [with someone that can't spell] that simply rehash stuff already covered
> up thread.

Well, Kunich at least knows what a capital letter is.

> nor will i get into a credentials pissing contest with
> someone who doesn't evidence or contribute anything of value.

Can sock puppets have credentials?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:03:35
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:PvidnQs1_M9LqCPbnZ2dnUVZ_q-jnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> WHAT IS SELF ADJUSTING?
>>>>>
>>>>> You're getting funnier by the posting. But by all means keep it up.
>>>>> I'm getting the giggles watching you post "proximity" after saying
>>>>> "it's not a clearance issue".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> dude, if you want to make a technical point, why do you descend in
>>>> to bullshit arguments about weight and materials - which are untrue?
>>>>
>>>> instead, all you're doing is descending deeper into some kind of
>>>> bizarre ad hominem [nonsense] defense of a total non-position.
>>>>
>>>> get with the tech of proximity detection and control or move along.
>>>
>>> And yet strangely you haven't answered any of the above charges.
>>
>> i don't usually bother with red herrings - that's why.
>>
>>>
>>> Let me make this easier for you:
>>>
>>> 1) What do you mean by "self-adjusting"?
>>> 2) Why do you perceive "proximity" to be necessary in detection of
>>> the position of the main vs. the cogs but clearance not to be the
>>> limiting factor?
>>> 3) Why can't you simply describe an electronic rear derailleur and
>>> it's advantages?
>>> 4) Since I weigh 200 lbs and my Basso Loto ready to ride weights 22
>>> lbs what precise advantage do you see in my riding my C40 which
>>> weighs 19 lbs ready to ride?
>>> 5) And simply for the ad hominine effect - since you're commenting on
>>> electronic derailleurs and materials science as if you actually
>>> understood these things perhaps you could tell us what you do for a
>>> living and why you haven't taken over the industry by the sheer
>>> genius of your will?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> and i will not get into bullshit red herrings dressed up as
>> "questions", [with someone that can't spell] that simply rehash stuff
>> already covered up thread.
>
> Well, Kunich at least knows what a capital letter is.

it's my right to use lower case. i'm exercising it. like my second
amendment rights.

>
>> nor will i get into a credentials pissing contest with someone who
>> doesn't evidence or contribute anything of value.
>
> Can sock puppets have credentials?

on usenet, the only credential you have is the quality of your content.
it's funny how those that want to opine on subjects outside their
experience seem fixated on casting around for "credentials" they haven't
otherwise established is if this somehow compensates for their deficiency.

Date: 12 Aug 2007 03:30:54
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:6KmdnWnsz6dX7iPbnZ2dnUVZ_oesnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> all you're doing is arguing, you're not arguing the points. you need to
> either go and get laid or try to say something useful. your call.

Thanks for demonstrating that you are a complete and utter fraud.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:38:14
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:6KmdnWnsz6dX7iPbnZ2dnUVZ_oesnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>> all you're doing is arguing, you're not arguing the points. you need
>> to either go and get laid or try to say something useful. your call.
>
> Thanks for demonstrating that you are a complete and utter fraud.
>

eh? you don't address the issues, you engage in ad hominem, and you
wonder why i won't play? [rhetorical]

Date: 10 Aug 2007 17:57:04
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tuschinski wrote:
> Though it might become no more than a marketing dud, there are some
> sides to the electronic shifting that are waived:
>
> Some theorising
>
> 1. Selfadjusting shifting. Yes Tom, current chips are small and cheap
> enough to be incorporatedhelp align a chain. It can be foreseen that
> this will make finer tolerances possible (overshift to move the chain,
> then at the right moment adjusted back). So perhaps we can narrow the
> rear end, or squeeze in more gears.
> 2. Weight. Though the prototypes are clunky, a botton+ wire (or button
> + remote) weigh less than cable+lever and are conceivably enough to
> offset battery.
> 3. Prize. An sti/ergo lever is most likely more expensive than chips
> mass produced rolling of the band.
>
> I think 3 can be very important.
>
> And about reliability: Mavic (life) prototypes shouldn't be seen as
> par for the course. Water etc hardly should be an issue, considering
> its actually pretty simple stuff.
>
> I'm not a believer in a sense that I think current mechanical systems
> are obsolete and are in need for replacement, but I can imagine there
> are some foreseeable advantages. Prize will be a biggie.
>

indeed.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 03:42:08
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 9, 12:32 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1186630344.090310.248...@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Aug 8, 4:34 pm, Chris Solar <cso...@magma.ca> wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> > > > Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> > > In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
> > > the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
> > > tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
> > > on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.
>
> > The true advance of cordless electronic shifting will
> > be to relocate the shifters on a TT bike to their proper
> > place: the directeur sportif's steering wheel.
> > Venga, venga!
>
> > Sincerely,
> > J. Bruyneel
>
> Next: electronic braking.
>

And, after that, brain implants......the *real* Mavic Zap!

Date: 09 Aug 2007 03:32:24
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 8, 4:34 pm, Chris Solar <cso...@magma.ca > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> > Anyone got any suggestions?
>
> In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
> the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
> tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
> on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.

The true advance of cordless electronic shifting will
be to relocate the shifters on a TT bike to their proper
place: the directeur sportif's steering wheel.
Venga, venga!

Sincerely,
J. Bruyneel

Date: 09 Aug 2007 05:32:28
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article
<1186630344.090310.248910@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >
,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org >
wrote:

> On Aug 8, 4:34 pm, Chris Solar <cso...@magma.ca> wrote:
> > Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> > > Anyone got any suggestions?
> >
> > In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
> > the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
> > tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
> > on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.
>
> The true advance of cordless electronic shifting will
> be to relocate the shifters on a TT bike to their proper
> place: the directeur sportif's steering wheel.
> Venga, venga!
>
> Sincerely,
> J. Bruyneel

Next: electronic braking.

--
Michael Press

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:24:48
From: Orin
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 8, 7:28 am, "hizar...@yahoo.com" <hizar...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Disc brakes do make a lot sense because they do
> improve the stopping power

On the front of a single road bike, yes. Both ends of a tandem, yes.
I don't see any reason for a disc on the rear of a single road bike
though.

But the main reason I'd choose a disc on my road bike would be to
prevent rim wear, having just replaced two Open Pro rims with concave
braking surfaces, both of which were usually used on the front of my
'rain' bike (one regular hub, one Schmidt hub for the winter).

Orin.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 07:28:06
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 8, 5:53 am, "Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com"
<pe...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Aug 7, 8:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> > > hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
> > >> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
> > >> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
> > >> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
> > >> weight.
>
> > > interesting.
>
> > The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
> > jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>
> > The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
> > precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
> > use quite a bit of power.
>
> > I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> > Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
> > can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
> > Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
> > sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
> > bases.
>
> Like I asked a shimano clone at Interbike, pointing to a particularly
> goofy FD setup, "what's that for?", I ask.."For selling" he answers.
>
> Like disc brakes on road bikes, tubeless, threadless, compact frames,
> oversized handlebars, etc....many will say what an improvement these
> things all are but mostly they are for 'selling'.

One potential advantage of tubeless tires is that they supposedly
improve the handling. Some people have said that they handle as well
as tubulars. You are correct that there is a lot of gimmick gee gah
technology in the bike industry today. I used to work in a shop and I
am amazed they are able to sell some of this stuff. Carbon fiber bars
make very little sense when the older 3TTT Superlegerra bars weigh 10
grams more and are far stronger. I have a set and have gone down 5 or
6 hard. The bars did not even bend. I would hate to think how many
times a set of composite bars would survive after just paying $300.
It's also ridiculous that consumers are paying $3000 with only a 3 or
5 year warranty. Disc brakes do make a lot sense because they do
improve the stopping power.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 12:53:54
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 7, 8:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>
> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> > hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
> >> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
> >> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
> >> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
> >> weight.
>
> > interesting.
>
> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>
> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
> use quite a bit of power.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
> bases.

Like I asked a shimano clone at Interbike, pointing to a particularly
goofy FD setup, "what's that for?", I ask.."For selling" he answers.

Like disc brakes on road bikes, tubeless, threadless, compact frames,
oversized handlebars, etc....many will say what an improvement these
things all are but mostly they are for 'selling'.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 22:01:06
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 11, 2:05 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote
> >> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote
>
> >>>> eh?
> >>> What exactly does this have to do with
> >> eh?
> > Psst - they don't NEED to do that. Again, WHAT
> psst - in what way
> >>> Please explain to us
> >> red herring.
> > I didn't expect you to understand the problem and you just proved it.
> it's not a clearance issue guy!!! ... a red herring is still a red
> herring regardless of specious allusions.
> >>> You really don't understand what you're talking about.
>
> >> yes i do. you were bleating
> > No - YOU were bleating about "self adjusting". ...
> > but you aren't able to understand the problem from an
> > engineering perspective.
>
> you really don't get it. ... duh.
>
> >>>> who said that?
> >>> Where are you getting the idea
> >> ok, now you're becoming irrational.
> > You are the one that hasn't a clue of the world around you. Perhaps you
> > ought to learn something before pretending you know about it.
>
> er, perhaps you're looking in a mirror when saying that?
>
> >>> As I pointed out in early July,
> >> weight != strength. red herrings
> > Perhaps you can explain that?
> sure - it's easy. weight != strength! you say you're an engineer, right?

Help! The RBR bot is arguing with the RBT bot!
It's a cascade of doom!1!! Bob Schwartz, you
gotta unplug Skynet before it's too late!!

Ben
RBR Autonomous Systems Engineer
and Giant Robot Mechanic, ASE

Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:29:13
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
>
> Help! The RBR bot is arguing with the RBT bot!
> It's a cascade of doom!1!!...

Maybe they are actually the same bot? ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 08 Aug 2007 06:02:14
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
> On Aug 7, 8:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>
>>> hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
>>>> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
>>>> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
>>>> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
>>>> weight.
>>> interesting.
>> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
>> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>>
>> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
>> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
>> use quite a bit of power.
>>
>> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
>> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
>> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
>> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
>> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
>> bases.
>
> Like I asked a shimano clone at Interbike, pointing to a particularly
> goofy FD setup, "what's that for?", I ask.."For selling" he answers.
>
> Like disc brakes on road bikes, tubeless, threadless, compact frames,
> oversized handlebars, etc....many will say what an improvement these
> things all are but mostly they are for 'selling'.
>

jeepers, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? get off your high
horse peter. the bike you rode in on this morning, the steel merckx
that you love so much, /that/ is the product of over 100 years of
"selling". it's darwinian. what works sticks around. what doesn't,
gets dropped. watch, learn and enjoy.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 02:30:56
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 13, 7:27 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1186975699.037429.310250@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1186890259.791631.154610@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> >> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> >>news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
> >> >> >> electronics
> >> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
> >> >> >> shifter
> >> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> >> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> >> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> >> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
> >> >> strong
> >> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
> >> >> the
> >> >> length of one day?
>
> >> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
> >> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
> >> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>
> >> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
> >> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
> >> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
> >> the power requirements.
>
> >> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>
> >> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
> >> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
> >> have
> >> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
> >> own
> >> capital.
>
> > I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
> > why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
> > consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
> > mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
> > spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.
>
> Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
> What are the cost of the sensors?
>
> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
notion of electronics.

Bret

Date: 15 Aug 2007 17:01:12
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.

For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.

So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 10:04:59
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Bret wrote:
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.

He a virtual electronic designer who owns a red herring restaurant.

Date: 14 Aug 2007 20:26:29
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Bret wrote:
> On Aug 13, 7:27 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1186975699.037429.310250@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1186890259.791631.154610@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>> On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>>>>>>>> electronics
>>>>>>>> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>>>>>>>> shifter
>>>>>>>> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>>>>>> Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>>>>>>> the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>>>>>> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
>>>>>> strong
>>>>>> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> length of one day?
>>>>> I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
>>>>> nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
>>>>> electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>>>> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
>>>> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
>>>> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
>>>> the power requirements.
>>>> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>>>> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
>>>> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
>>>> have
>>>> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
>>>> own
>>>> capital.
>>> I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
>>> why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
>>> consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
>>> mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
>>> spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.
>> Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
>> What are the cost of the sensors?
>>
>> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> notion of electronics.
>
> Bret
>

indeed!

Date: 09 Aug 2007 02:05:25
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:wLKdnUMTMZxLIyTbnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
>> On Aug 7, 8:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>
>>>> hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
>>>>> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
>>>>> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
>>>>> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
>>>>> weight.
>>>> interesting.
>>> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a
>>> strong
>>> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>>>
>>> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give
>>> very
>>> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that
>>> they
>>> use quite a bit of power.
>>>
>>> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
>>> shifting.
>>> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting
>>> you
>>> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
>>> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a
>>> skunk
>>> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge
>>> lever
>>> bases.
>>
>> Like I asked a shimano clone at Interbike, pointing to a particularly
>> goofy FD setup, "what's that for?", I ask.."For selling" he answers.
>>
>> Like disc brakes on road bikes, tubeless, threadless, compact frames,
>> oversized handlebars, etc....many will say what an improvement these
>> things all are but mostly they are for 'selling'.
>>
>
> jeepers, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? get off your high
> horse peter. the bike you rode in on this morning, the steel merckx that
> you love so much, /that/ is the product of over 100 years of "selling".
> it's darwinian. what works sticks around. what doesn't, gets dropped.
> watch, learn and enjoy.

Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting" ought to
just read the postings and not write them.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:04:26
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:wLKdnUMTMZxLIyTbnZ2dnUVZ_tbinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com wrote:
>>> On Aug 7, 8:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>>
>>>>> hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
>>>>>> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
>>>>>> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
>>>>>> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
>>>>>> weight.
>>>>> interesting.
>>>> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a
>>>> strong
>>>> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>>>>
>>>> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to
>>>> give very
>>>> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is
>>>> that they
>>>> use quite a bit of power.
>>>>
>>>> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric
>>>> shifting.
>>>> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic
>>>> shifting you
>>>> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like
>>>> Kyle,
>>>> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of
>>>> a skunk
>>>> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge
>>>> lever
>>>> bases.
>>>
>>> Like I asked a shimano clone at Interbike, pointing to a particularly
>>> goofy FD setup, "what's that for?", I ask.."For selling" he answers.
>>>
>>> Like disc brakes on road bikes, tubeless, threadless, compact frames,
>>> oversized handlebars, etc....many will say what an improvement these
>>> things all are but mostly they are for 'selling'.
>>>
>>
>> jeepers, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? get off your
>> high horse peter. the bike you rode in on this morning, the steel
>> merckx that you love so much, /that/ is the product of over 100 years
>> of "selling". it's darwinian. what works sticks around. what
>> doesn't, gets dropped. watch, learn and enjoy.
>
> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>
eh? maybe you should re-read?

Date: 16 Aug 2007 04:44:25
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > notion of electronics.
>
> For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
> can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
> that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
> throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
>
> So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.

You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?

My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
the electronics kept working.

Bret

Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:04:58
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1187239465.305558.52770@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>>
>> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
>> > notion of electronics.
>>
>> For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are
>> mouthy. I
>> can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to
>> do
>> that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's
>> a
>> throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
>>
>> So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.
>
> You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
> end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
> meters, HR monitors and cyclometers.

You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

> My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
> designed electronics.

Your opinion and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at a truck stop.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:16:35
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1187239465.305558.52770@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>>>
>>> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
>>> > notion of electronics.
>>>
>>> For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are
>>> mouthy. I
>>> can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power
>>> to do
>>> that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe
>>> that's a
>>> throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
>>>
>>> So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.
>>
>> You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
>> end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
>> meters, HR monitors and cyclometers.
>
> You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

eh? he's talked a good deal more tech than you have so far. all we
have from you is a bunch of derision, technical vacuum, oh, and an
allegation that you design some kind of "probe". presumably the anal
variety judging by the technical standards you've evidenced so far.

>
>> My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
>> designed electronics.
>
> Your opinion and $2 will get you a cup of coffee at a truck stop.
>

get with the tech.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:31:56
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <1187239465.305558.52770@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com >,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
> >
> > > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > > notion of electronics.
> >
> > For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
> > can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
> > that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
> > throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
> >
> > So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.
>
> You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
> end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
> meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
> fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
> supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
> that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
> That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
> jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?
>
> My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
> designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
> requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
> Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
> heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
> easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
> shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
> modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
> that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
> Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
> Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
> the electronics kept working.

I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy up in
Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to work pretty
reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the way, do you have a link
to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be interested in what he has to say about
it.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 15 Aug 2007 12:19:53
From: SLAVE of THE STATE
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 15, 1:04 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
> Bret wrote:
> > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > notion of electronics.
>
> He a virtual electronic designer who owns a red herring restaurant.

With all the low hanging fruit, why would you folks pick on the
controller cost?

Maybe head on over to Digikey and get some prices.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:43:27
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <j72dnRdTkd6nGSfbnZ2dnUVZ_v_inZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:

> > Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
> > ought to just read the postings and not write them.
> >
> eh? maybe you should re-read?

You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way, the original
Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the mechanism. The
troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the wiring in particular.
They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts of moisture. They did stay
in the gear they were in when it quit or you could stop and manually move it over to
an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches" in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:54:31
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <j72dnRdTkd6nGSfbnZ2dnUVZ_v_inZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>>>
>> eh? maybe you should re-read?
>
> You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way, the original
> Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the mechanism. The
> troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the wiring in particular.
> They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts of moisture. They did stay
> in the gear they were in when it quit or you could stop and manually move it over to
> an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches" in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.
>

sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
resources for this?

Date: 17 Aug 2007 05:43:05
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 16, 8:04 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?

Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.

Bret

http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9

Date: 16 Aug 2007 23:38:29
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <1187329385.203450.260550@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com >,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Aug 16, 8:04 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?
>
> Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
> hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
> electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.
>
> Bret
>
> http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9

Ooh, I'm betting he takes "Insults for $100, Alex" as his answer...

By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's take on
Zap / Mektronic pretty well:

http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 19 Aug 2007 14:06:02
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-9EEF6E.23382916082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <1187329385.203450.260550@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 8:04 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> > You just don't understand engineering so why don't you just shut up?
>>
>> Pop quiz Kunich. Summarize the following thread in one sentence. The
>> hardware specifics may be foreign to you, but if you are an
>> electronic design engineer you should be able to get the gist of it.
>>
>> Bret
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/32hpu9
>
> Ooh, I'm betting he takes "Insults for $100, Alex" as his answer...
>
> By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's
> take on
> Zap / Mektronic pretty well:
>
> http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
clutches"?

Date: 31 Aug 2007 16:07:21
From: Bill C
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 31, 6:12 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:13dguj993edpl86@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >news:jVKBi.225154$g86.1542@newsfe14.lga...
>
> >> The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my
> >> collarbone.
>
> > Yeah, the quality went WAY down for awhile and I bought a bunch of DuraAce
> > look-type pedals to use. Now they're back to being fairly good. The cleats
> > had become absolute crap and I couldn't use Look cleats anymore because
> > they rattled in the pedals. The latest cleats are back to working well.
>
> That wasn't the issue I experienced. My cleats fit fine, but the spring
> tension in the pedals wasn't sufficient for standing starts. I pulled out
> once while doing starts on my road bike and a second time a couple of months
> later on a track bike. The fixed gear kept turning the cranks and launched
> me over the bars.

That'll teach you trackie types with massive power to use straps. ;-)
Bill C

Date: 20 Aug 2007 23:27:43
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13chc5r74i5ab24@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-9EEF6E.23382916082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...

> I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
> clutches"?

Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch. The solenoid briefly fires a pin into a sliding
rack to move the mechanism. I think of dog clutches as seen in freewheel/hubs (pawls
and teeth) or the Ram Coupler when in the open (or direct drive) position
(internal/external splines):

http://www.ramclutches.com/Tech/coupler1.htm

So it could be considered a clutch. However:

"The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong jolt
and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own." [1]

The solenoids are only fired when it's shifting - the rest of the time, the
derailleur held its position by a detent system, which was very positive. The sketchy
electronics were the cause of random shifts or, more frequently, no shifts.

[1] http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/41ef71ee8bcd9778?hl

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 31 Aug 2007 12:46:56
From: PiledHIgher
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 31, 5:45 pm, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > The last set of Look pedals I owned were the reason I broke my collarbone.
>
> So sue them for a new collar bone.
>
> I remember clipping out of Looks, but since switching to Time I've
> never clipped out (and they mostly fixed a ankle/calf problem
> I had through to much float with the red cleats and no float with
> the black ones.)

Must be uncomfortable sitting at your desk at work with the bike still
attatched.

Date: 31 Aug 2007 16:09:57
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

PiledHIgher wrote:
> Must be uncomfortable sitting at your desk at work with the bike still
> attatched.

I get lots of carbon credits by attaching my computer power input
to my indoor trainer output. Only trouble is my power supply blew
a gasket when I was viewing some of Ewouds and heathers old porn.

Date: 25 Aug 2007 16:34:30
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-34F882.23274320082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <13chc5r74i5ab24@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
>> news:YOURhoward-9EEF6E.23382916082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>
>> I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
>> clutches"?
>
> Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(mechanics)#Clutch_dogs

"some kinds of clutches (including the ones inside an automobile
transmission) may lock up via the engagement of dogs, rather than only
through friction. These clutches are called dog clutches and the dogs used
within them are called clutch dogs."

Date: 25 Aug 2007 19:23:47
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13d1f49h3qt6n5e@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-34F882.23274320082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article <13chc5r74i5ab24@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> > <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> >> news:YOURhoward-9EEF6E.23382916082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> >
> >> I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
> >> clutches"?
> >
> > Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(mechanics)#Clutch_dogs
>
> "some kinds of clutches (including the ones inside an automobile
> transmission) may lock up via the engagement of dogs, rather than only
> through friction. These clutches are called dog clutches and the dogs used
> within them are called clutch dogs."

Awesome. Now Tom, while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it. But your description
of the problems that the Mavic system has still doesn't jibe with reality. Oh, and
how about Bret's quiz?

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberg� eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberg� bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 26 Aug 2007 07:45:59
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-6C6EA0.19234725082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>
> while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
> pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.

Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.

> But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
> doesn't jibe with reality.

Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.

> Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?

How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?

Date: 26 Aug 2007 09:22:00
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13d34hb66fd3da@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-6C6EA0.19234725082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> >
> > while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
> > pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.
>
> Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.
>
> > But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
> > doesn't jibe with reality.
>
> Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
> silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.

Heh, ignorance never slows you down. You regularly tell people how they should do
their work (like telling astrophysicists or climate scientists or health policy
people how they're wrong - or, for that matter, a machinist how the molds for cleats
are made [1]). Yep, we don't understand anything like you do. Again, your comments
about why the system doesn't work doesn't match reality.

> > Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?
>
> How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?

How is that relevant? You were merrily telling him that he didn't know what he was
talking about and it sure looks like he's stumped you.

[1] http://tinyurl.com/2f8w7m

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberg� eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberg� bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 26 Aug 2007 13:04:55
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-6F8E3A.09220026082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <13d34hb66fd3da@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> wrote:
>> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
>> news:YOURhoward-6C6EA0.19234725082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>> >
>> > while I said that describing the action of the solenoid actuated
>> > pins as a dog clutch is a bit of a stretch, I'm not denying it.
>>
>> Probably because you have absolutely no clue about what's being said.
>>
>> > But your description of the problems that the Mavic system has still
>> > doesn't jibe with reality.
>>
>> Since you don't understand any of it perhaps you ought to just remain
>> silent. Sure, like ignorance ever slowed your comments.
>
> Heh, ignorance never slows you down. You regularly tell people how they
> should do
> their work (like telling astrophysicists or climate scientists or health
> policy
> people how they're wrong - or, for that matter, a machinist how the molds
> for cleats
> are made [1]). Yep, we don't understand anything like you do. Again, your
> comments
> about why the system doesn't work doesn't match reality

By all means quote me telling astrophysicists of climate scientists how
they're wrong. And explain to me what a "health policy" person is.

>> > Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?
>>
>> How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?
>
> How is that relevant?

Yet somehow a specific question about an FPGA is relevant to me? You are one
stupid jackass and that's growing more and more obvious.

> You were merrily telling him that he didn't know what he was
> talking about and it sure looks like he's stumped you.
>
> [1] http://tinyurl.com/2f8w7m

You are quite funny. Somehow I'm telling you how a mold is make when in fact
you don't seem to have a clue about real production work yourself. The fact
that Look cleats had gotten significantly smaller over time wasn't being
questioned and yet you were arguing that it COULDN'T be the molds. Why it
MUST have been some sort of outsourcing.

It would have never occurred to some smartmouth punk that perhaps new molds
weren't being made from a machined male model but simply by pouring the mold
material around a production cleat and then cutting it out and hand
finishing the mold with a dremel like I just watched being done the other
day.

Tell me Kveck, do you EVER think about what you're writing or are you simply
a contrarian incapable of agreeing with anything?

Date: 26 Aug 2007 13:41:16
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13d3n7aiqobik29@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-6F8E3A.09220026082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article <13d34hb66fd3da@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> > <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> > wrote:
> >> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> >> news:YOURhoward-6C6EA0.19234725082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...

> > Heh, ignorance never slows you down. You regularly tell people how they
> > should do their work (like telling astrophysicists or climate scientists or
> > health policy people how they're wrong - or, for that matter, a machinist
> > how the molds for cleats are made [1]). Yep, we don't understand anything
> > like you do. Again, your comments about why the system doesn't work doesn't
> > match reality
>
> By all means quote me telling astrophysicists of climate scientists how
> they're wrong. And explain to me what a "health policy" person is.

All you need to do is check any of the threads on climate change or any that
discussed health policy for the answers to those.

> >> > Oh, and how about Bret's quiz?
> >>
> >> How about it. Can you tell us what it is about?
> >
> > How is that relevant?
>
> Yet somehow a specific question about an FPGA is relevant to me? You are one
> stupid jackass and that's growing more and more obvious.
>
> > You were merrily telling him that he didn't know what he was
> > talking about and it sure looks like he's stumped you.

Then why don't you answer his question?

> > [1] http://tinyurl.com/2f8w7m
>
> You are quite funny. Somehow I'm telling you how a mold is make when in fact
> you don't seem to have a clue about real production work yourself.

Idiot, I'm the machinist. I've made molds and the shop next door to ours was a
plastic shop that did injection molding - they made their molds onsite. And you think
you can tell me how a mold for a production item is made?

> The fact that Look cleats had gotten significantly smaller over time wasn't being
> questioned and yet you were arguing that it COULDN'T be the molds. Why it
> MUST have been some sort of outsourcing.

Idiot, if you re-read the thread with an eye toward comprehension, you'd see that
you're talking out your ass again.

> It would have never occurred to some smartmouth punk that perhaps new molds
> weren't being made from a machined male model but simply by pouring the mold
> material around a production cleat and then cutting it out and hand
> finishing the mold with a dremel like I just watched being done the other
> day.

Idiot, that is *not* how a mold for a production item is made. "Pouring the mold
material" - what the fuck are you talking about? You plainly have never seen a
injection molding machine, mold or shop that uses either. And yet *I'm* the
smartmouth punk here? Jeebus, what a cretin. You obviously think they make Look
cleats on an old Shrinky Dink set. So sorry, wrong again!

> Tell me Kveck, do you EVER think about what you're writing or are you simply
> a contrarian incapable of agreeing with anything?

Well, when the person telling me he knows everything about everything and how
stupid I am says something that is demonstrably wrong, then I guess I am a
contrarian.

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberg� eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberg� bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 26 Aug 2007 17:55:23
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

You've reached the stage where you can't demonstrate any better what a
complete and total jackass you are.

My guess is that you're one of those "machinists" that we used to stand
there and watch the NC machine run.

Date: 26 Aug 2007 23:23:15
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13d487tipcusq84@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> You've reached the stage where you can't demonstrate any better what a
> complete and total jackass you are.

If by "complete and total jackass" you mean "guy who actually knows what he's
talking about", then yes. Linguistics, however, isn't your strong suit.

> My guess is that you're one of those "machinists" that we used to stand
> there and watch the NC machine run.

You can't admit that you're wrong. Plain and simple. And your guess about what my
job entails is wrong. You wouldn't even know where to start or what you were looking
at, for that matter. Shit, you seem to think that Look isn't smart enough to have CAD
files or at least drawings of their parts around (in fact, that's exactly what you
claimed: "The system is as Howard states except that when you don't have the file on
the cleat you make one up by drawing it using a production cleat to measure
from") and that they haven't invested in any new mills or lathes since the mid
sixties ("But that doesn't mean that the mold maker has the NC machine that a CAD file
just plugs into. Remember that older industries still have the manual
numerical entry or even worse, one of those X-Y coordinate things that used
a paper tape"). Yeah, I know, I know, they're French and, therefore, too cheap. Yeah,
right. By the way, you don't just "plug the CAD file into" the machine. So sorry,
wrong again!

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberg� eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberg� bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 23 Aug 2007 18:42:16
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote in message
news:YOURhoward-34F882.23274320082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <13chc5r74i5ab24@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
>> clutches"?
>
> Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.

What a nutcake.

Date: 24 Aug 2007 16:58:38
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <13csdrqor8n51cc@corp.supernews.com >, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <YOURhoward@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote in message
> news:YOURhoward-34F882.23274320082007@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> > In article <13chc5r74i5ab24@corp.supernews.com>, "Tom Kunich"
> > <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if you understand that "electrically activated pawls" means "dog
> >> clutches"?
> >
> > Mmm, that's a bit of a stretch.
>
> What a nutcake.

Mmmmm, I like cake. Doesn't everyone?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:28:19
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Howard Kveck wrote:
> ...
> By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's take on
> Zap / Mektronic pretty well:
>
> http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html

Some people will prefer to read it here:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/electronic-shifting.html >.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
BEER IS FOOD

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 17 Aug 2007 19:19:46
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <46c63110$0$23226$88260bb3@free.teranews.com >,
"Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
> > ...
> > By the way, Bret, I did find this page, which I imagine sums up Jobst's
> > take on
> > Zap / Mektronic pretty well:
> >
> > http://yarchive.net/bike/mavic_zap.html
>
> Some people will prefer to read it here:
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/electronic-shifting.html>.

Well, alright. The other one came up first in my search, which is why I chose it.

Interestingly, JB says that there isn't enough tension in the system to be able
work well on a 40-52 ringset with a 13-24 cogset - I know of a bike that used 39-53
and a 12-25 (though more often a 12-21) with a Zap that worked just fine.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 16 Aug 2007 06:48:32
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 15, 11:31 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com > wrote:
> In article <1187239465.305558.52...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 15, 6:01 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > > "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1187145056.670268.295030@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > >> ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.
>
> > > > For an electronic designer you are really struggling badly with the
> > > > notion of electronics.
>
> > > For some jerk who doesn't know anything about it you certainly are mouthy. I
> > > can buy a half dozen microcontrollers with enough computational power to do
> > > that job for a buck each. Right now I'm designing a medical probe that's a
> > > throw away after every patient that will have a controller in it.
>
> > > So by all means tell me all about it you nitwit.
>
> > You started out saying that electronics were too expensive for high
> > end bike equipment, despite the fact that it's already there in power
> > meters, HR monitors and cyclometers. When I called you on that you
> > fell back to the red herring of the expense of motors and power
> > supplies. Now you've back pedaled to the point where you are arguing
> > that electronics are so cheap that they're practically disposable.
> > That's basically my argument taken to an extreme. And I'm the mouthy
> > jerk who doesn't know WTF I'm talking about?
>
> > My opinion is that the Mavic Zap/Mektronic suffered from poorly
> > designed electronics. It had neither motors nor high power
> > requirements, so your red herring is a non sequitur. I'm aware of
> > Jobst Brandt's criticisms of the mechanical design, but everything I
> > heard about it had to do with electronic failures which should be
> > easily correctable. One of my teammates back in the 90's was a bike
> > shop owner, Mavic dealer and Zap user. I asked him about the failure
> > modes and he agreed that it was all about the electronics. Knowing
> > that electronics can be made reliable, I see no obstacle to a Mavic
> > Zap equivalent being marketed that is both reliable and economical.
> > Others have posted in this thread that the mechanics were good when
> > the electronics kept working.
>
> I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy up in
> Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to work pretty
> reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the way, do you have a link
> to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be interested in what he has to say about
> it.

I remember that too and know the guy he was talking about, Alan Hills.
He is (was?) an electronics tech at NCAR that repaired a failed zap
system that he got cheap. The article was about how to build a light/
cheap climbing bike on a budget. It's simple really, you just go out
and find some failed Zap components and repair it. The guy's a friend
of Zin and also took part in Zin's crank length experiments.

I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

Google Jobst and Zap in Google Groups and I'm sure you'll find it.

Bret

Date: 16 Aug 2007 16:55:44
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <1187246912.246351.188840@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com >,
Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote:

> On Aug 15, 11:31 pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> > In article <1187239465.305558.52...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> > I seem to recall Leonard Zinn mentioning somewhere that there was a guy
> > up in Colorado who did work on Zaps back in the mid '90s that got them to
> > work pretty reliably. As I recall it was all electronic work too. By the
> > way, do you have a link to JB's criticisms or should I JFG it? I'd be
> > interested in what he has to say about it.
>
> I remember that too and know the guy he was talking about, Alan Hills.
> He is (was?) an electronics tech at NCAR that repaired a failed zap
> system that he got cheap. The article was about how to build a light/
> cheap climbing bike on a budget. It's simple really, you just go out
> and find some failed Zap components and repair it. The guy's a friend
> of Zin and also took part in Zin's crank length experiments.

Yep, that was the article. After I sent, I remembered the article's focus. Thanks.

> I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
> circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.
>
> Google Jobst and Zap in Google Groups and I'm sure you'll find it.

I'll do that - thanks again.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 16 Aug 2007 06:36:06
From: d p chang
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com > writes:

> I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
> circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.

i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
thinking it.

\p
---
Software is like sex; it's better when it's free. --- Linus Torvalds

Date: 16 Aug 2007 19:07:23
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"d p chang" <weasel@meer.net > wrote in message
news:m2lkcbmwjd.fsf@yoyodyne.macrovision.com...
> Bret <bret.wade@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
>> circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.
>
> i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
> in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
> something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
> internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
> thinking it.

No, there wasn't much to the controller. All it did was lift one solenoid or
the other and then drop it. The rest was all mechanical.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:50:35
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <pJGdnY-HzqVqEifbnZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net >,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
> > In article <j72dnRdTkd6nGSfbnZ2dnUVZ_v_inZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> > jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> >>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
> >>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
> >>>
> >> eh? maybe you should re-read?
> >
> > You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the way,
> > the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it wasn't the
> > mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the electronics and the
> > wiring in particular. They frequently stopped working due to miniscule amounts
> > of moisture. They did stay in the gear they were in when it quit or you could
> > stop and manually move it over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches"
> > in 'em, contrary to what TK stated.
> >
>
> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> resources for this?

I don't know of any, sorry.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:41:43
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>>>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.

>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>> eh? maybe you should re-read?

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>> You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the
>> way, the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but it
>> wasn't the mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the
>> electronics and the wiring in particular. They frequently stopped
>> working due to miniscule amounts of moisture. They did stay in the
>> gear they were in when it quit or you could stop and manually move it
>> over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches" in 'em, contrary
>> to what TK stated.

jim beam wrote:
> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
> resources for this?

You're kidding, right?
Mavic Mektronic systems were everywhere . . . for a whole season.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 15 Aug 2007 05:13:58
From: amakyonin
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 12, 1:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> I HATE automatic transmission in motor vehicles, because of the
> down-shifts that occur when one wants just a little more power in the
> same gear. On bicycles, they are an even worse idea.

FWIW. Modern, computer controlled automatics will delay shifting if
you floor the pedal. There can still be some delay getting the power
surge through the torque converter but they are better than the
automatics of yore.

Date: 15 Aug 2007 00:26:45
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

amakyonin wrote:
> On Aug 12, 1:37 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> I HATE automatic transmission in motor vehicles, because of the
>> down-shifts that occur when one wants just a little more power in the
>> same gear. On bicycles, they are an even worse idea.
>
> FWIW. Modern, computer controlled automatics will delay shifting if
> you floor the pedal. There can still be some delay getting the power
> surge through the torque converter but they are better than the
> automatics of yore.

My recent experience was with a 2007 model year (company) vehicle.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition"

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 08 Aug 2007 21:56:46
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

A Muzi wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Someone that believes that an electronic RD can be "self adjusting"
>>>>> ought to just read the postings and not write them.
>
>>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>> eh? maybe you should re-read?
>
>> Howard Kveck wrote:
>>> You're not holding your breath waiting for that, are you? By the
>>> way, the original Mavic electronic rear deralleur had problems, but
>>> it wasn't the mechanism. The troubles were mostly centered around the
>>> electronics and the wiring in particular. They frequently stopped
>>> working due to miniscule amounts of moisture. They did stay in the
>>> gear they were in when it quit or you could stop and manually move it
>>> over to an appropriate gear. There are no 'clutches" in 'em, contrary
>>> to what TK stated.
>
> jim beam wrote:
>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>> resources for this?
>
> You're kidding, right?
> Mavic Mektronic systems were everywhere . . . for a whole season.

i saw them on special on cambriabike.com once. but never seen one in
the flesh and certainly no tech info.

but don't you think this odd? i mean, mavic's just a marketing company,
right? pre-built wheels are meritless and sales are just a function of
marketing, so mavic's electronic shifting should have responded to the
same treatment...

Date: 09 Aug 2007 00:03:15
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

>> jim beam wrote:
>>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>>> resources for this?

Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 11 Aug 2007 13:46:26
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <13bl7vshv10313@corp.supernews.com >, A Muzi
('am@yellowjersey.org') wrote:

>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>>>> resources for this?
>
> Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

Thanks! I've always wanted a look at that. I can't help thinking that the
Metronic was a very interesting system. You wouldn't happen to have
anything on the derailleur, would you?

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
[seen on /. 08:04:02]

Date: 09 Aug 2007 20:31:47
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

A Muzi wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>>>> resources for this?
>
> Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html
>
thanks andrew! do you [or anyone] have line drawings of the derailleur
guts? it's still not clear to me from that material how it works.

Date: 16 Aug 2007 15:10:59
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 16, 7:36 am, d p chang <wea...@meer.net > wrote:
> Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com> writes:
> > I also recall reading somewhere that there was a basic flaw in the Zap
> > circuitry. A missing pullup or something that could lead to a failure.
>
> i've mostly been following along from home, but as a sw person working
> in the embedded space this tweaked my interest. how does one debug
> something like this w/o the schematic? i guess i was thinking the
> internals had some sort of custom asic or something, but maybe i'm over
> thinking it.

It was a problem with the circuit driving the solenoid which wouldn't
be difficult to reverse engineer. Here's an old thread from 1994 on
the subject:

http://tinyurl.com/343x48

Bret

Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:12:48
From:
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 00:03:15 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:

>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> sounds like a very interesting system nevertheless. any online
>>>> resources for this?
>
>Hey, just remembered I uploaded the manual for someone once:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

Dear Andrew,

The operating temperature range from 23F to 112F reminds me of a
long-ago test of an electrically-fired shotgun, intended to reduce
what's called "lock time", or the time between the trigger pull and
the firing pin hitting the primer.

The tester took the gun out for ducks and soon learned that in cold
weather the battery-powered electrical system grew so feeble that it
reminded him of the delay with an old-fashioned flint-and-powder-pan
muzzle-loading shotgun.

As far as I know, electricity failed to replace firing pins in
ordinary firearms. (Battery-fired primers are used by many automatic
military weapons, but they have considerably larger batteries.)

I wonder how well coin-cell shifters would work near the end of a
long, cold mountain stage in the Tour de France. And how happy
ordinary riders would be, stopping to replace batteries to cure slow
shifting.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 08 Aug 2007 01:58:57
From: hizark21@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 7, 7:21 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>
> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>
> > hizar...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
> >> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
> >> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
> >> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
> >> weight.
>
> > interesting.
>
The only problem I heard of was the radio frequency interference
problem on rare occasions One complaint had was that the solenoid was
not replaceable.

> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>
> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
> use quite a bit of power.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
> bases.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 19:54:21
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
> Mektronic used the d�railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
> weight.

interesting.

> Both Shimano and Campagnlo's shifting system requires a very
> large battery.
>
> The really big issue is if these shifting systems will withstand a
> immersion test. This requirement seems a bit extreme, but there are
> occasions when I am riding and you have go through a very deep puddle
> with no other way to go around.
>

Date: 08 Aug 2007 02:21:52
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
>> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
>> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
>> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
>> weight.
>
> interesting.

The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.

The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
use quite a bit of power.

I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
bases.

Date: 13 Aug 2007 03:28:19
From: Bret
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:
> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1186890259.791631.154610@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
> >> >> electronics
> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
> >> >> shifter
> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>
> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>
> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism strong
> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for the
> >> length of one day?
>
> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>
> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
> the power requirements.
>
> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>
> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who have
> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their own
> capital.

I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.

Bret

Bret

Date: 14 Aug 2007 01:27:53
From: Tom Kunich
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

"Bret" <bret.wade@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1186975699.037429.310250@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 12, 7:51 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1186890259.791631.154610@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Aug 11, 8:17 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>> >> "Bret" <bret.w...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1186804964.539079.233890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On Aug 10, 8:38 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> >> >> And aside from the fact that you don't understand the cost of
>> >> >> electronics
>> >> >> these days, there's no way that you can make an electro-mechanical
>> >> >> shifter
>> >> >> as cheaply as a mechanical one
>>
>> >> > Why do you believe electronics are expensive? Are you talking about
>> >> > the cost of ASICs? There are alternatives you know.
>>
>> >> Bret - what is the power costs to run a stepping motor mechanism
>> >> strong
>> >> enough to shift and maintain positioning of a chain on a bicycle for
>> >> the
>> >> length of one day?
>>
>> > I asked why you believed the electronics would be expensive. That has
>> > nothing to do with the power consumption of stepping motors. What
>> > electronics did you have in mind that would be so expensive?
>>
>> It has everything in the world to do with it! Look, the controller is a
>> simple little dollar part with a $10,000 program in it. But the drive
>> mechanism is a power hungry monster that can't be miniaturized because of
>> the power requirements.
>>
>> And the gains from such a development program are practically nil.
>>
>> If you really believe that electronic shifting is a good idea then by all
>> means invest your own money into it. It's funny that all the people who
>> have
>> great ideas really don't think they're that great if it comes to their
>> own
>> capital.
>
> I never said it was a good or bad idea in this thread. I only wondered
> why you thought the electronics would be too expensive. Why do you
> consider a simple little dollar part to be too expensive? The drive
> mechanism isn't electronics. The program cost would of course be
> spread across all of the units sold, just like any other R&D cost.

Bret, what are the power requirements for the motors? The drive mechanism?
What are the cost of the sensors?

ONE DOLLAR only pays for the controller.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:26:59
From: JG
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

I'm curious whether the posters who have actually used the Mectronic
agree that it was remarkably reliable when shifting under load? I'm
trying to get my mind wrapped around that. The Mavic derailleur does
not look sophisticated enough to time the cogs. Possibly an overshift
and return that was more consistent than the "analogue" method built
into SIS would do it, but I wonder...

JG

Date: 11 Aug 2007 11:06:30
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

JG wrote:
> I'm curious whether the posters who have actually used the Mectronic
> agree that it was remarkably reliable when shifting under load? I'm
> trying to get my mind wrapped around that. The Mavic derailleur does
> not look sophisticated enough to time the cogs. Possibly an overshift
> and return that was more consistent than the "analogue" method built
> into SIS would do it, but I wonder...

For race sized cassettes, shifting isn't all that difficult given modern
chain and tooth forms, floating top pulley and slant-body changers
with dual springs. You may need something more complex for an 11~34 with
a tandem-range triple crank but race bikes aren't that.

Mektronic performed as advertised, RF problems and moisture were it's
weak spots.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:50:17
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

JG wrote:
> I'm curious whether the posters who have actually used the Mectronic
> agree that it was remarkably reliable when shifting under load?

what, criticism of something they've never tried??? say it ain't so!

> I'm
> trying to get my mind wrapped around that. The Mavic derailleur does
> not look sophisticated enough to time the cogs. Possibly an overshift
> and return that was more consistent than the "analogue" method built
> into SIS would do it, but I wonder...
>
> JG
>

agreed - from what i can see, there's no "self-adjust" built into this one.

Date: 11 Aug 2007 20:26:49
From: Simon Brooke
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

in message <BKOdnSJsVNgkRyDbnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d@speakeasy.net >, jim beam
('spamvortex@bad.example.net') wrote:

> JG wrote:
>> I'm curious whether the posters who have actually used the Mectronic
>> agree that it was remarkably reliable when shifting under load?
>
> what, criticism of something they've never tried??? say it ain't so!

Well, I'll admit I've never tried it - but I've got an ebay automatic watch
set in case one ever comes up.

--
simon@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; have mercy on the slender grass

Date: 08 Aug 2007 19:34:41
From: Chris Solar
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions?

In theory you could put your shift levers/buttons anywhere you want on
the bike, or have multiple sets of shifters, since the shifters aren't
tied to mechanical cables. A TT bike, for example, could have shifters
on both the aero bars and the bullhorns. FWIW.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 21:20:26
From: Howard Kveck
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

In article <4N9ui.14316$Od7.4773@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com > wrote:

> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
> Howard, Carmine or datakoll.

Oh, you mean weak kneed shifty eyed morons - say like Tony Rominger or Chris
Boardman?

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Date: 07 Aug 2007 20:51:07
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:yfidnTKRFIhAQyrbnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> hizark21@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Campagnolo had a prototype of it's electronic shifting system. The
>>> problem however is that they have chosen to use the solenoid as the
>>> primary driving mechanism. The same goes for Shimano as well. Mavic's
>>> Mektronic used the d?railleur pulley to drive a worm gear thus saving
>>> weight.
>> interesting.
>
> The Mavic system was handicapped by the mechanism. All it takes is a strong
> jolt and the clutches lift and the bike shifts somewhere on it's own.
>
> The other methods probably use stepping motors with leadscrews to give very
> precise and reliable position sensitive shifting. The problem is that they
> use quite a bit of power.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out what the advantages are to electric shifting.
> Anyone got any suggestions? True that if you have electronic shifting you
> can shift even if you're a weak kneed shifty eyed moron - say like Kyle,
> Howard, Carmine or datakoll. But for anyone with the coordination of a skunk
> sprayed squirrel Ergo or STI has no drawbacks aside from those huge lever
> bases.
>
>
i see the advantage as having the potential to be self-adjusting.
whether it actually does this or not is another matter. but if the
theoretical advantages were achieved, and precision shifting achievable
every time, i think it would be a great thing.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 10:00:19
From: Donald Munro
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

jim beam wrote:
> i see the advantage as having the potential to be self-adjusting.
> whether it actually does this or not is another matter. but if the
> theoretical advantages were achieved, and precision shifting achievable
> every time, i think it would be a great thing.

I can't wait to write a virus for the self-adjusting software.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 05:51:56
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: Electronic shifting system

Donald Munro wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> i see the advantage as having the potential to be self-adjusting.
>> whether it actually does this or not is another matter. but if the
>> theoretical advantages were achieved, and precision shifting achievable
>> every time, i think it would be a great thing.
>
> I can't wait to write a virus for the self-adjusting software.
>
do you write viruses for cnc machines?