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Main
Date: 02 Jul 2007 07:29:16
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Endurance on long rides?
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I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
are faster than I.
On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
to push too hard when I'm alone.
But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
did. I'm used to that.
What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 23:27:43
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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On Jul 13, 6:56 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:22:24 -0000, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?membe...
>
> Those are poor quality. If you regularly pull the bottom down under
> your chin (which I do regularly with balaclava) it tends to unravel,
> and is uncomfortable.
>
> This is the best lightweight balaclava. It's almost 4x the cost, but
> will last longer and fit better.
>
> http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/coldgearhood.html
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
can you sew? well, sew it.
the manzella is an all weather hat not a cold weather hat. wear it in
the mojave ifn yawl don't like MLB caps. roll the edges up into a
watch cap. trick no? protects the forward follicles from UV burnout.
I have a 7 year manzella, now a spare, wore it every day for 7 CXT^%
$DE!! years. ripstops!
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 12:22:24
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=77269
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 18:56:14
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:22:24 -0000, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>
>http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=77269
Those are poor quality. If you regularly pull the bottom down under
your chin (which I do regularly with balaclava) it tends to unravel,
and is uncomfortable.
This is the best lightweight balaclava. It's almost 4x the cost, but
will last longer and fit better.
http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/coldgearhood.html
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 03:06:05
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:06:31 -0700, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >check Vargas out! he's in the NYT yesterday:
>
> I was in the NYTimes today, via a letter to the editor.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
on getting a taxi during rads?
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Date: 13 Jul 2007 06:05:35
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 03:06:05 -0000, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>On Jul 12, 7:39 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:06:31 -0700, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >check Vargas out! he's in the NYT yesterday:
>>
>> I was in the NYTimes today, via a letter to the editor.
>
>on getting a taxi during rads?
On camera surveillance of people in my city.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 14:06:31
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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check Vargas out! he's in the NYT yesterday: see vargas' forearms
http://www.njrando.com/
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Date: 12 Jul 2007 19:39:52
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:06:31 -0700, datakoll <datakoll@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>check Vargas out! he's in the NYT yesterday:
I was in the NYTimes today, via a letter to the editor.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
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Date: 07 Jul 2007 15:18:23
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 10:28 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 10:06 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:29:16 -0700, Colin Campbell
>
> > <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > >I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > >92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > >are faster than I.
>
> > >On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > >around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > >week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> > >to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> > >But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > >end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > >banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > >almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> > >at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> > >The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> > >civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> > >when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> > >did. I'm used to that.
>
> > >What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> > I'm not sure, but you need to see if the problem is primarily the time
> > in the saddle, or the speed. Can you ride comfortably at that speed
> > for two hours. Conversely, if you ride for five hours at a slower
> > pace, do you still feel very tired?
>
> > --
> > JT
> > ****************************
> > Remove "remove" to reply
> > Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> > ****************************- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> in that vein: are you aware of the failing heart beat test? use a
> heart minitor to establish what the heart was before during and after
> yesterday's ride.
> when you awake this morning, immediately check your heart rate at
> intervals as you get up move around eat and do your thing.
> if your heart rate is slower or worser labored uunngh unnngh long
> pumps slower beats then your heart, assuming adequate nutrution all
> around, did not recover after resting from yesterday's workpout
> signifying yesterday's workpout was dysfunctional not constructive.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
thinking about this yesterday, I left out the fact that I can run
(run) down to the pier and once or twice a week exceed 2-3 running
miles in one mile segments but chose not to TSD for conditioning:
I compete only with myself.
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 18:12:19
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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On Jul 4, 4:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > A 100 mile ride is an endurance event. If you and
> > the people you know think 100 miles is not an
> > endurance event, it shows you're in good shape
> > and/or like boasting, but it also shows you don't
> > understand physiology.
>
> ==========
> A cute analysis, but what you fail to notice, is cycling is not running.
> Did you notice in cycling the thing between your legs. A machine, with 2
> big wheels, and gearing. Did you take into consideration that maybe a
> century ride, downhill, with 15 mph breeze at your back, any you might never
> even have to move the crank to complete it. You obviously haven't ever been
> at a mass century event. Sit at the finish line and watch the thousands who
> complete it. It may take some, 8-10 hours to complete it, but almost
> everyone does. Even the ones, who started cycling that very day. Not
> endurance, sorry!
I've worked support for both century events and
various kinds of races (including a 24 hour race).
Not many, but I've fed people, fixed their bikes,
and looked them over to see if they should get
back on their bikes or not. I've also climbed
into the sag wagon myself once. I think it's
obvious that you are confusing endurance with
testosterone-induced bragging about your capacity.
Almost anyone, with a relatively small effort in
preparation (training, if you like) can complete
a century ride. This does not prove your
perverse claim that a century is not an endurance
event. It just means that it isn't at the
outer limits of what people can do. That's good.
Paris-Brest-Paris is a lot harder, but still within
a normal person's ability with enough training, and
that is certainly an endurance event.
RAAM, for example, to take one of your pet causes,
is at the outer limits of what people can do (I
think practically any experienced rider could train
for Paris-Brest-Paris and have a respectable chance of
finishing; not so for RAAM). It detracts from the event
by turning RAAM into a sleep deprivation slow-riding
contest rather than a race.
Ben
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 03:27:58
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> Almost anyone, with a relatively small effort in
> preparation (training, if you like) can complete
> a century ride. This does not prove your
> perverse claim that a century is not an endurance
> event. It just means that it isn't at the
> outer limits of what people can do. That's good.
> Paris-Brest-Paris is a lot harder, but still within
> a normal person's ability with enough training, and
> that is certainly an endurance event.
==========
Now you have me confused. Maybe I should ask, what isn't an endurance
distance? A personal note, one of the toughest rides I ever did was an
organized Christmas event ride. The distance was exactly 1 mile. It went
through a neighborhood that puts on a big Christmas show. Riding that 1
mile through throngs of people was one of the most nerve racking rides I've
ever done. I was really stressed, so by your definition maybe that 1 mile
tour was an endurance event also.
============
> RAAM, for example, to take one of your pet causes,
> is at the outer limits of what people can do (I
> think practically any experienced rider could train
> for Paris-Brest-Paris and have a respectable chance of
> finishing; not so for RAAM). It detracts from the event
> by turning RAAM into a sleep deprivation slow-riding
> contest rather than a race.
>
> Ben
=============
RAAM is more of an adventure race, than the bicycle races of today, I would
agree. But what I like is the spirit and how it's a throw back to what
riding use to be. Read about some of the early Tour de France races, it was
more like RAAM, then what it is today. Even if you go to the 70's, where I
read an interview with Eddy, where they always try to compare his efforts to
today, and he'll reply that it's impossible to compare because the Tour is
so different today.
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 08:05:17
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 03:27:58 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
> Maybe I should ask, what isn't an endurance
>distance?
Depends on how you define it. From an exercise physiology basis it
could be only events shorter than 8 to 15 minutes -- this is looking
at the energy systems involved in the actvity, with events longer than
that using similar sysems.
In cycling, since most people, even people relatively untrained can
tolerate riding for an hour and people with experience but little
recent training can probably tolerate a couple hours, rides of less
than an hour or two are probably not endurance rides.
In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 12:56:06
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> > Maybe I should ask, what isn't an endurance
> >distance?
>
> Depends on how you define it. From an exercise physiology basis it
> could be only events shorter than 8 to 15 minutes -- this is looking
> at the energy systems involved in the actvity, with events longer than
> that using similar sysems.
>
> In cycling, since most people, even people relatively untrained can
> tolerate riding for an hour and people with experience but little
> recent training can probably tolerate a couple hours, rides of less
> than an hour or two are probably not endurance rides.
>
> In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>
> --
> JT
==========
Maybe this is the misunderstanding, I am not talking about from a physiology
point of view. The way the word "endurance" is used in the common usage, is
very long events, whether it's running, swimming or cycling. Now maybe from
physiological perspective a person going from the couch to the refrigerator
and back might be an endurance event, but if I told people I know in the
ultracycling community that I did a 1 or 2 hour "endurance" ride they would
laugh at me. Endurance means like enduring 14 hours in the saddle, not
whether which energy sources are being used by the body. That's important,
but usually that would fall under the "nutrition" discussion, which could
fill a bible, since everyone is so different.
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 18:29:45
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:56:06 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Maybe this is the misunderstanding, I am not talking about from a physiology
>point of view. The way the word "endurance" is used in the common usage, is
>very long events, whether it's running, swimming or cycling. Now maybe from
>physiological perspective a person going from the couch to the refrigerator
>and back might be an endurance event, but if I told people I know in the
>ultracycling community that I did a 1 or 2 hour "endurance" ride they would
>laugh at me.
A lot of people laugh at ultracyclists.
The OP asked a question about athletic performance over several hours.
That's endurance. If you want to live in your own little world and
talk about something else, that's your business, but it's not "common
usage" among typcial athletic cyclists or sports physiologists.
--
JT
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 18:40:46
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:29:45 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:56:06 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
><jazzyboss@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Maybe this is the misunderstanding, I am not talking about from a physiology
>>point of view. The way the word "endurance" is used in the common usage, is
>>very long events, whether it's running, swimming or cycling. Now maybe from
>>physiological perspective a person going from the couch to the refrigerator
>>and back might be an endurance event, but if I told people I know in the
>>ultracycling community that I did a 1 or 2 hour "endurance" ride they would
>>laugh at me.
>
>A lot of people laugh at ultracyclists.
Oh, and I twice rode 250 miles in 24 hours when I was a teenager.
--
JT
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 22:54:04
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
>
> Oh, and I twice rode 250 miles in 24 hours when I was a teenager.
> --
> JT
-----------
And I rode my very first century ride with tennis shoes.
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 19:04:45
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:54:04 GMT, "Crescentius Vespasianus"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and I twice rode 250 miles in 24 hours when I was a teenager.
>-----------
>And I rode my very first century ride with tennis shoes.
Yeah, my 250-mile ride was in Nike trainers. Nike Cortez I think --
white with blue and red trim (as at bottom)
http://sneakers.pair.com/m-cortez.htm
Casual shorts, oxford shirt, etc.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 06 Jul 2007 01:22:01
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> >> Oh, and I twice rode 250 miles in 24 hours when I was a teenager.
> >-----------
> >And I rode my very first century ride with tennis shoes.
>
> Yeah, my 250-mile ride was in Nike trainers. Nike Cortez I think --
> white with blue and red trim (as at bottom)
------
those were better than my adidas tennis shoes. Did your feet hurt
afterwards, from the flex? I wore bermuda shorts, with underware, T-shirt,
and had a hangover, and only drank straight water.
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 21:34:40
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:22:01 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> >> Oh, and I twice rode 250 miles in 24 hours when I was a teenager.
>> >-----------
>> >And I rode my very first century ride with tennis shoes.
>>
>> Yeah, my 250-mile ride was in Nike trainers. Nike Cortez I think --
>> white with blue and red trim (as at bottom)
>------
>those were better than my adidas tennis shoes. Did your feet hurt
>afterwards, from the flex? I wore bermuda shorts, with underware, T-shirt,
>and had a hangover, and only drank straight water.
I don't remember foot pain.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 14:59:14
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 11:39 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> > >With
> > >the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles.
>
> > The people you know sound like dumbasses.
>
> > --
> > JT
> > ****************************
>
> take it easy on the t-patches, you're being anti-social.
So you think it might be testosterone poisoning that causes the overly
aggressive, asinine behavior?
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 22:18:53
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> > > The people you know sound like dumbasses.
> >
> > > --
> > > JT
> > > ****************************
> >
> > take it easy on the t-patches, you're being anti-social.
>
>
> So you think it might be testosterone poisoning that causes the overly
> aggressive, asinine behavior?
------------
I don't know what's wrong with Jt, I'm not familar with his pet issues or
whatever. He claims he's not a trainer, and I don't think he does long
distance riding, but he seems paranoid, and yes, aggressive. T-patches is
my guess, ........roid rage maybe. So many people are on stuff it's hard to
guess where they're coming from.
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 18:35:48
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:18:53 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I don't know what's wrong with Jt, I'm not familar with his pet issues or
>whatever. He claims he's not a trainer, and I don't think he does long
>distance riding, but he seems paranoid, and yes, aggressive. T-patches is
>my guess, ........roid rage maybe. So many people are on stuff it's hard to
>guess where they're coming from.
You posted obnoxious nonsense about endurance in this group, and I
have little tolerance for nonsense, especially obnoxious nonsense. If
that makes me anti-social in your eyes, so be it.
I'm not paranoid but am certainly aggressive. So what? Better
aggressive than stupid.
--
JT
****************************
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****************************
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 00:56:58
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> You posted obnoxious nonsense about endurance in this group, and I
> have little tolerance for nonsense, especially obnoxious nonsense. If
> that makes me anti-social in your eyes, so be it.
>
> I'm not paranoid but am certainly aggressive. So what? Better
> aggressive than stupid.
> --
> JT
=======
Put the sherm down for a second, and collect yourself. After all we're only
talking about bikes.
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 21:01:55
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 00:56:58 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> You posted obnoxious nonsense about endurance in this group, and I
>> have little tolerance for nonsense, especially obnoxious nonsense. If
>> that makes me anti-social in your eyes, so be it.
>>
>> I'm not paranoid but am certainly aggressive. So what? Better
>> aggressive than stupid.
>> --
>> JT
>=======
>Put the sherm down for a second, and collect yourself. After all we're only
>talking about bikes.
No, we were talking about training, and you gave a person looking for
help condescending and wrong information.
As I said, better aggressive than stupid.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 18:20:55
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:59:14 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Jul 4, 11:39 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> > >With
>> > >the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles.
>>
>> > The people you know sound like dumbasses.
>>
>> > --
>> > JT
>> > ****************************
>>
>> take it easy on the t-patches, you're being anti-social.
>
>
>So you think it might be testosterone poisoning that causes the overly
>aggressive, asinine behavior?
You tell me. And by the way, what are you ashamed about?
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 12:15:51
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 7:53 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message denews:5xLii.4045$zA4.3376@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net,
>> Not to mention the granddad who started this only wanted the ooohs and
> aaaahs when he posted his achievements.
>
> Faster, longer, harder - theme change ....
>
> I think he should get out of the saddle and into bed to get with real
> endurance challenges. Not much of a cardiac challenge, but severe cramping
> usually happens during those extra 15 minutes at the end, 4-6 hours later.
> Don't be a masochist. If you want liquor and tobacco after, I won't rat you
> out.-
>
> - Show quoted text -
your venomous empty contributions suggest that you need to go back to
rbr and discuss at length with the likes of amit and kurigan, don't
waste any more of your time here
bub-bye
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 12:02:09
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 3, 6:16 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:08:23 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
>
> <rogerzo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I find I always ride better (ie, more comfortable and this more enjoyable)
> >if I start on an empty stomach and start eating small bits along the way. I
> >can't speak for others, but that seems to work for me.
>
> That's interesting. I read a guy who claimed that, at most, an
> endurance athlete exercising in the morning should eat just enough to
> make up for energy used while resting overnight. Not sure I agree with
> that, but it's intriguing.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
I tend to skip food until mid-afternoon even if I get up early, or
went to work (as a machinist, before then I was a bike courier, but
with the same routine); a tea usually does well enought for me; but
then I don't go out and hammer anymore, I like to go on long rides at
a steady pace. Eating for a long ride is blood sugar management; eat
the wrong food and you are really screwed up for a while, perhaps the
entire day- you go into that sugar insulin yo-yo routine, and the
solid food in your gut means it will take time for that regain it's
balance. a liquid diet or an empty stomach means that if you forget to
drink enough and start to bonk a quick fix is at hand. Winter and
cold weather you need fuel to help keep you warm and you don't ride
nearly as fast or far below 0c so different rules apply then.
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 07:15:09
From: dustoyevsky@mac.com
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 6:53 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Not to mention the granddad who started this only wanted the ooohs and
> aaaahs when he posted his achievements.
Maybe so. He didn't say in what category he raced his track events.
Trackie, never riding more than 40 miles or so, lacking endurance. Go
figure!
--D-y
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 05:00:17
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 6:53 am, Sandy Leurre wrote:
> ...
> Most people who spend 8-10 hours doing something in a day call it a job and
> get paid....
10 hours - that is not even a half day at work. Sheesh, what slackers.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 04:56:19
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 6:30 am, "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
> ...
> A cute analysis, but what you fail to notice, is cycling is not running.
> Did you notice in cycling the thing between your legs. A machine, with 2
> big wheels, and gearing....
Who says both, or even one wheel has to be big?
Story of a guy riding Paris-Brest-Paris (an endurance event) on a
small wheel Green Gear Bike Friday:
<http://www.mile43.com/peterson/pbpstory.html >.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 09:14:29
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
I wrote:
> Basically, there are two kinds of athletic events:
> endurance and strength. I don't mean just racing or
> competition, but exercise or physical activity in general.
> Cycling (except for sprints, sort of) is an endurance
> sport, unlike say weight lifting, high jumping, or
> the 100 meter dash.
Before any competition-class skateboarders and artistic
cyclists flame me, perhaps I should have added skill
sports to the endurance and strength categories.
Ben
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 08:01:48
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 3, 7:13 pm, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> The first century ride is a rite of passage. I remember my first one, and
> indeed I thought it was endurance. But now it's just a weekend ride. With
> the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles. So a beginner
> would be someone who thinks a century ride is endurance, like I thought when
> I was a beginner.
Basically, there are two kinds of athletic events:
endurance and strength. I don't mean just racing or
competition, but exercise or physical activity in general.
Cycling (except for sprints, sort of) is an endurance
sport, unlike say weight lifting, high jumping, or
the 100 meter dash.
A 100 mile ride is an endurance event. If you and
the people you know think 100 miles is not an
endurance event, it shows you're in good shape
and/or like boasting, but it also shows you don't
understand physiology.
> What got me peeved is when people give all this training
> advice to a beginner. First you have to get thousands of base miles in
> before any type of training would even be helpful.
That's nonsense. Also, the OP is not a beginner.
A beginner is someone who hasn't ever ridden a bike
for more than an hour at a time. Anybody who regularly
rides a bike 10-20 miles or more will benefit from
training, if they enjoy it. Training doesn't have to be
painful intervals; it can be just a more thoughtful
distribution of effort in your regular riding. But
in the OP's case, his question is obviously one that
accepts the possibility of training that requires effort.
Ben
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Date: 04 Jul 2007 11:30:09
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> Basically, there are two kinds of athletic events:
> endurance and strength. I don't mean just racing or
> competition, but exercise or physical activity in general.
> Cycling (except for sprints, sort of) is an endurance
> sport, unlike say weight lifting, high jumping, or
> the 100 meter dash.
>
> A 100 mile ride is an endurance event. If you and
> the people you know think 100 miles is not an
> endurance event, it shows you're in good shape
> and/or like boasting, but it also shows you don't
> understand physiology.
>
==========
A cute analysis, but what you fail to notice, is cycling is not running.
Did you notice in cycling the thing between your legs. A machine, with 2
big wheels, and gearing. Did you take into consideration that maybe a
century ride, downhill, with 15 mph breeze at your back, any you might never
even have to move the crank to complete it. You obviously haven't ever been
at a mass century event. Sit at the finish line and watch the thousands who
complete it. It may take some, 8-10 hours to complete it, but almost
everyone does. Even the ones, who started cycling that very day. Not
endurance, sorry!
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| | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 12:25:57
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
>> Basically, there are two kinds of athletic events:
>> endurance and strength. I don't mean just racing or
>> competition, but exercise or physical activity in general.
>> Cycling (except for sprints, sort of) is an endurance
>> sport, unlike say weight lifting, high jumping, or
>> the 100 meter dash.
>>
>> A 100 mile ride is an endurance event. If you and
>> the people you know think 100 miles is not an
>> endurance event, it shows you're in good shape
>> and/or like boasting, but it also shows you don't
>> understand physiology.
>>
> ==========
> A cute analysis, but what you fail to notice, is cycling is not running.
> Did you notice in cycling the thing between your legs. A machine, with 2
> big wheels, and gearing. Did you take into consideration that maybe a
> century ride, downhill, with 15 mph breeze at your back, any you might never
> even have to move the crank to complete it. You obviously haven't ever been
> at a mass century event. Sit at the finish line and watch the thousands who
> complete it. It may take some, 8-10 hours to complete it, but almost
> everyone does. Even the ones, who started cycling that very day. Not
> endurance, sorry!
>
>
Regrettably, the thing between my legs is NOT a machine! <g >
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| | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 13:53:23
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Dans le message de
news:5xLii.4045$zA4.3376@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net,
Callistus Valerius <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>> Basically, there are two kinds of athletic events:
>> endurance and strength. I don't mean just racing or
>> competition, but exercise or physical activity in general.
>> Cycling (except for sprints, sort of) is an endurance
>> sport, unlike say weight lifting, high jumping, or
>> the 100 meter dash.
>>
>> A 100 mile ride is an endurance event. If you and
>> the people you know think 100 miles is not an
>> endurance event, it shows you're in good shape
>> and/or like boasting, but it also shows you don't
>> understand physiology.
>>
> ==========
> A cute analysis, but what you fail to notice, is cycling is not
> running. Did you notice in cycling the thing between your legs. A
> machine, with 2 big wheels, and gearing. Did you take into
> consideration that maybe a century ride, downhill, with 15 mph breeze
> at your back, any you might never even have to move the crank to
> complete it. You obviously haven't ever been at a mass century
> event. Sit at the finish line and watch the thousands who complete
> it. It may take some, 8-10 hours to complete it, but almost everyone
> does. Even the ones, who started cycling that very day. Not
> endurance, sorry!
Most people who spend 8-10 hours doing something in a day call it a job and
get paid. Cycling long distances and preparing and showering and getting
civilized takes too much out of real life in a human community. "Endurance"
in this thread is better defined as approximately 15 minutes longer than you
really cared to do anything, and it when becomes a chore.
Not to mention the granddad who started this only wanted the ooohs and
aaaahs when he posted his achievements.
Faster, longer, harder - theme change ....
I think he should get out of the saddle and into bed to get with real
endurance challenges. Not much of a cardiac challenge, but severe cramping
usually happens during those extra 15 minutes at the end, 4-6 hours later.
Don't be a masochist. If you want liquor and tobacco after, I won't rat you
out.
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| | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 16:37:52
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
"Endurance"
> in this thread is better defined as approximately 15 minutes longer than
you
> really cared to do anything, and it when becomes a chore.
------------
Another variation of that theme is, .....An endurance event is something
that when you line up at the start line, there is some doubt in your mind if
you'll be able to finish the event. So I guess if you line up for a century
ride, and you have some doubt if you can complete it, than I guess for that
person it would be an endurance event.
|
| |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 22:53:08
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 3, 3:49 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> -snip-
>
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > I have to make due on a lot less mileage, that's for sure. BTW, I did
> > a climb-a-thon last Saturday and then went out on Sunday. Because of
> > the topography around here, it's hard to go anywhere pleasant without
> > doing at least a thousand or two feet of climbing. So, I'm ambling up
> > this two mile maybe 8/9 percent average climb and a guy goes by like I
> > am parked. Man, did I feel really, really old. Luckily, it was a
> > former national champion, so I didn't feel too bad.
>
> 'Bronze Bob' Mionske?
Complete with spikey blond hair and no helmet. Even on a good day, I
couldn't keep him in sight for more than a few turns. -- Jay Beattie.
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| |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 15:10:17
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> WHY BOTHER? you have 10-12 years of life left and you want to stress
> your body, occupy your time in pursuit of a bunch of young jocks
> faster than your age?
I saw my grandpa running to catch a bus when he was 97-
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 09:06:53
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 3, 6:10 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183411855.249166.160390@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> >> > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> >> > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> >> > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> >> > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at
> >> > 5%.
>
> >> > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> >> > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use
> >> > my
> >> > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle
> >> > chainring.
> >> > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> >> > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like
> >> > serious
> >> > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> >> > can.
>
> >> > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the
> >> > vents
> >> > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> >> > routes with hills.
>
> >> > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast
> >> > food
> >> > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on
> >> > yesterday's
> >> > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> >> > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe
> >> > I'll
> >> > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on
> >> > the
> >> > ride yesterday.
>
> >> I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> >> and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> >> comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> >> pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> >> bottles on
> >> long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate
> >> between
> >> the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> >> back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> >> use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> >> warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle
> >> up
> >> with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> >> packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> >> you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> >> > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> >> You're doing well for age 63,
>
> > Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
> Collin's not embarrassing you, eh Jay? ;-)
I have to make due on a lot less mileage, that's for sure. BTW, I did
a climb-a-thon last Saturday and then went out on Sunday. Because of
the topography around here, it's hard to go anywhere pleasant without
doing at least a thousand or two feet of climbing. So, I'm ambling up
this two mile maybe 8/9 percent average climb and a guy goes by like I
am parked. Man, did I feel really, really old. Luckily, it was a
former national champion, so I didn't feel too bad. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 17:49:08
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
-snip-
Jay Beattie wrote:
> I have to make due on a lot less mileage, that's for sure. BTW, I did
> a climb-a-thon last Saturday and then went out on Sunday. Because of
> the topography around here, it's hard to go anywhere pleasant without
> doing at least a thousand or two feet of climbing. So, I'm ambling up
> this two mile maybe 8/9 percent average climb and a guy goes by like I
> am parked. Man, did I feel really, really old. Luckily, it was a
> former national champion, so I didn't feel too bad.
'Bronze Bob' Mionske?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 09:27:13
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:1183478813.196399.172380@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 6:10 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1183411855.249166.160390@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> >> > Thanks to all for the input!
>>
>> >> > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing
>> >> > a
>> >> > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then
>> >> > up a
>> >> > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km
>> >> > at
>> >> > 5%.
>>
>> >> > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>>
>> >> > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to
>> >> > use
>> >> > my
>> >> > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle
>> >> > chainring.
>> >> > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>>
>> >> > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like
>> >> > serious
>> >> > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to
>> >> > where I
>> >> > can.
>>
>> >> > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the
>> >> > vents
>> >> > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick
>> >> > some
>> >> > routes with hills.
>>
>> >> > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast
>> >> > food
>> >> > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on
>> >> > yesterday's
>> >> > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in
>> >> > their
>> >> > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect.
>> >> > Maybe
>> >> > I'll
>> >> > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on
>> >> > the
>> >> > ride yesterday.
>>
>> >> I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system
>> >> fast
>> >> and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me.
>> >> It
>> >> comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
>> >> pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
>> >> bottles on
>> >> long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate
>> >> between
>> >> the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in
>> >> the
>> >> back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
>> >> use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be
>> >> luke
>> >> warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the
>> >> bottle
>> >> up
>> >> with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but
>> >> the
>> >> packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle
>> >> if
>> >> you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>>
>> >> > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>>
>> >> You're doing well for age 63,
>>
>> > Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>>
>> Collin's not embarrassing you, eh Jay? ;-)
>
> I have to make due on a lot less mileage, that's for sure. BTW, I did
> a climb-a-thon last Saturday and then went out on Sunday. Because of
> the topography around here, it's hard to go anywhere pleasant without
> doing at least a thousand or two feet of climbing. So, I'm ambling up
> this two mile maybe 8/9 percent average climb and a guy goes by like I
> am parked. Man, did I feel really, really old. Luckily, it was a
> former national champion, so I didn't feel too bad. -- Jay Beattie.
>
I was just kiddin you Jay, I know you're a great rider.
-tom
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 23:11:39
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 3, 1:23 am, Sandy <leur...@free.fr > wrote:
> Colin Campbell a =E9crit :
>
>
>
> > I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > are faster than I.
>
> > On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend
> > not to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> > But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz
> > Gatorade at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20
> > oz bottles).
>
> > The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
> > seemed civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19
> > mph). when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much,
> > but I did. I'm used to that.
>
> > What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> A masterful display of fishing. I won't bother counting how many
> bottom-feeders, how many attackers, and all other varieties of schooling
> perch there were, but when Colin went out to hook them, he came home
> with a basket full.
>
> Colin - you're just plain too old to go up hills. Take the bus. Make a
> detour with your young companion. Open a bottle not a bidon.
>
> Nice going. Lots and lots of fish, leading one another to slaughter.
>
> Cool.
> --
> Sandy
> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
> --
> S'endormir au volant, c'est tr=E8s dangereux.
> S'endormir =E0 v=E9lo, c'est tr=E8s rare.
> S'endormir =E0 pied, c'est tr=E8s con.
> - Geluck, P.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think you should stay at rbr- your type is better appreciated there
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:17:35
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Dans le message de
news:1183443099.699604.312670@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,
raamman@gmail.com <raamman@gmail.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jul 3, 1:23 am, Sandy <leur...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Colin Campbell a écrit :
>>
>>
>>
>>> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and
>>> yesterday, a 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger
>>> folks, most of whom are faster than I.
>>
>>> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride
>>> being around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride
>>> during the week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I
>>> know I tend not to push too hard when I'm alone.
>>
>>> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
>>> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate
>>> a banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots
>>> and almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz
>>> Gatorade at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20
>>> oz bottles).
>>
>>> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
>>> seemed civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19
>>> mph). when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down
>>> much, but I did. I'm used to that.
>>
>>> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>>
>> A masterful display of fishing. I won't bother counting how many
>> bottom-feeders, how many attackers, and all other varieties of
>> schooling perch there were, but when Colin went out to hook them, he
>> came home with a basket full.
>>
>> Colin - you're just plain too old to go up hills. Take the bus.
>> Make a detour with your young companion. Open a bottle not a bidon.
>>
>> Nice going. Lots and lots of fish, leading one another to slaughter.
>>
>> Cool.
>> --
>> Sandy
>> Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
>> --
>> S'endormir au volant, c'est très dangereux.
>> S'endormir à vélo, c'est très rare.
>> S'endormir à pied, c'est très con.
>> - Geluck, P.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I think you should stay at rbr- your type is better appreciated there
Are you embarassed he took you in, is that it? Silly boy!
|
| |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 07:23:32
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Colin Campbell a écrit :
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend
> not to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz
> Gatorade at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20
> oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
> seemed civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19
> mph). when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much,
> but I did. I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
A masterful display of fishing. I won't bother counting how many
bottom-feeders, how many attackers, and all other varieties of schooling
perch there were, but when Colin went out to hook them, he came home
with a basket full.
Colin - you're just plain too old to go up hills. Take the bus. Make a
detour with your young companion. Open a bottle not a bidon.
Nice going. Lots and lots of fish, leading one another to slaughter.
Cool.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
--
S'endormir au volant, c'est très dangereux.
S'endormir à vélo, c'est très rare.
S'endormir à pied, c'est très con.
- Geluck, P.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 20:30:44
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 3:59 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 3:16 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 2:57 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 2, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > > > > > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> > > > > > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> > > > > > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> > > > > > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> > > > > > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> > > > > > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> > > > > > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> > > > > > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> > > > > > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> > > > > > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> > > > > > can.
>
> > > > > > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> > > > > > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> > > > > > routes with hills.
>
> > > > > > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> > > > > > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> > > > > > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> > > > > > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> > > > > > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> > > > > > ride yesterday.
>
> > > > > I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> > > > > and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> > > > > comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> > > > > pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> > > > > bottles on
> > > > > long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
> > > > > the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> > > > > back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> > > > > use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> > > > > warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
> > > > > with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> > > > > packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> > > > > you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> > > > > > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> > > > > You're doing well for age 63,
>
> > > > Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
> > > > Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
> > > > years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
> > > > -- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
> > > > age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
> > > > just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
> > > > next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
> > > > have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
> > > > before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
> > > > increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
> > > > fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
> > > > resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
> > > > your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
> > > > are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
> > > > racers. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> > > In rowing, 30 somethings regularly get their a$$ kicked by 60-
> > > somethings. I looked at the concept2 world rankings and found that on
> > > the rowing machine, the fastest time in the Men's 60-69 category was
> > > faster than the fastest time in any other category except Men's 19-29.
>
> > > I asked my coach about it. He said: "The thing about old guys is, ...
> > > they got a lotta time to train."
>
> > With actual rowing, style is so important that I could see an older
> > and more experienced rower with faster times. On an ergometer,
> > though, I would not expect a 60+ elite rower to be faster than his 30
> > year old peer. That is fascinating -- and weird. I don't think there
> > is a bicycle corrolary. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Yes but I'm specifically talking about the ergometer, which removes
> the detrimental effects of poor style. Browse the C2 rankings for
> more surprises.
>
> The point is, it matters much more what you do every day than how old
> you are.
Sort of. If you have a 30 year old doing 250 miles a week and then
you have a 63 year old doing the same miles -- both doing the same
type of riding (e.g. intervals, LSD, repeats, etc.), the 30 year old
is going to feel a lot fresher on Sunday for the big ride -- unless
the 63 year old is a genetic freak. Those old freaks exist, and they
top charts, and I've ridden with them, but they are the real rarity.
Based on my own experience and that of my similarly-situated aging
riding companions, recovery time lenghthens as you grow old --
consistency wanes, and although you can have stellar one-day
performances, stellar multi-day performances become more rare, and
strategic resting becomes more important. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 02:28:44
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 10:06 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:29:16 -0700, Colin Campbell
>
>
>
>
>
> <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> >92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> >are faster than I.
>
> >On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> >around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> >week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> >to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> >But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> >end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> >banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> >almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> >at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> >The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> >civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> >when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> >did. I'm used to that.
>
> >What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> I'm not sure, but you need to see if the problem is primarily the time
> in the saddle, or the speed. Can you ride comfortably at that speed
> for two hours. Conversely, if you ride for five hours at a slower
> pace, do you still feel very tired?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
in that vein: are you aware of the failing heart beat test? use a
heart minitor to establish what the heart was before during and after
yesterday's ride.
when you awake this morning, immediately check your heart rate at
intervals as you get up move around eat and do your thing.
if your heart rate is slower or worser labored uunngh unnngh long
pumps slower beats then your heart, assuming adequate nutrution all
around, did not recover after resting from yesterday's workpout
signifying yesterday's workpout was dysfunctional not constructive.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 22:06:12
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 07:29:16 -0700, Colin Campbell
<cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
>I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
>92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
>are faster than I.
>
>On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
>around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
>week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
>to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
>But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
>end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
>banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
>almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
>at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
>The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
>civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
>when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
>did. I'm used to that.
>
>What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
I'm not sure, but you need to see if the problem is primarily the time
in the saddle, or the speed. Can you ride comfortably at that speed
for two hours. Conversely, if you ride for five hours at a slower
pace, do you still feel very tired?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 01:40:50
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 8:39 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> Very sensible points you make.
>
> Still, these people are my current riding buddies, and you always want
> to do what you can to gain your buddies' respect. (Who know, maybe I
> already have it; they keep asking me to ride with them.)
the graveyard is filled with respect
if you hurt yourself trying to keep up
you may never ride to the current level
again
example: i wuz doing the butterfly. up down up down ad nauseum. great
fun. pulled the pericardium. duh. limped for 5 months with a distorted
valve seat. no so great fun.lesson. warmup before butterflying, limit
laps. no TSD. casual butterfly
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:18:41
From: damyth
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Peter Cole wrote:
> damyth wrote:
> > You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no point
> > in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn yourself
> > out too early, since older people generally don't have as much muscle
> > mass as younger folks.
> >
>
> Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One of the
> main reasons that long distance riding is popular with older riders is
> because they can still be competitive as it really has nothing to do
> with peak capacities.
>
> There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that rode a
> very respectable race, especially given that they were all over 75 and
> had suffered prior heart attacks. From the waist down you'd be hard
> pressed to tell them from the 20-somethings.
No, I think you missed the point. Intervals and climbing (LT
training) improve cardio-vascular conditioning as well as muscle
mass. The one thing that was clear from the OP's post it's clear he
was doing too much volume, and not enough intensity. In order to
improve his LT he needs to shift his training more towards intensity.
This will allow him to ride longer _faster_ (with enough left in the
tank), which I believe was what he was really asking.
For long endurance rides one needs to train in _all_ heart rate zones
(except maybe >=95% of max HR). I'll leave what constitutes max HR
argument for another day.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 08:21:46
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
damyth wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
>> damyth wrote:
>>> You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no point
>>> in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn yourself
>>> out too early, since older people generally don't have as much muscle
>>> mass as younger folks.
>>>
>> Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One of the
>> main reasons that long distance riding is popular with older riders is
>> because they can still be competitive as it really has nothing to do
>> with peak capacities.
>>
>> There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that rode a
>> very respectable race, especially given that they were all over 75 and
>> had suffered prior heart attacks. From the waist down you'd be hard
>> pressed to tell them from the 20-somethings.
>
> No, I think you missed the point. Intervals and climbing (LT
> training) improve cardio-vascular conditioning as well as muscle
> mass.
No argument.
> The one thing that was clear from the OP's post it's clear he
> was doing too much volume, and not enough intensity.
Not clear to me.
> In order to
> improve his LT he needs to shift his training more towards intensity.
> This will allow him to ride longer _faster_ (with enough left in the
> tank), which I believe was what he was really asking.
>
> For long endurance rides one needs to train in _all_ heart rate zones
> (except maybe >=95% of max HR). I'll leave what constitutes max HR
> argument for another day.
>
The OP described normally riding 40 miles or so but getting fatigued
toward the end of longer rides (70-90 mi). This is pretty typical. I
disagree that the solution is to ride with more intensity. It's not
unusual to see extremely fit riders who are not used to distance riding
fade dramatically when the distance gets significantly longer than their
usual rides ( >150%). Long distance riding seems to require different
capabilities (physiological). I don't know why that is, but that just
seems to be the way it works.
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:48:56
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Peter Cole wrote:
:: damyth wrote:
::: Peter Cole wrote:
:::: damyth wrote:
::::: You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no
::::: point in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn
::::: yourself out too early, since older people generally don't have
::::: as much muscle mass as younger folks.
:::::
:::: Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One
:::: of the main reasons that long distance riding is popular with
:::: older riders is because they can still be competitive as it really
:::: has nothing to do with peak capacities.
::::
:::: There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that rode
:::: a very respectable race, especially given that they were all over
:::: 75 and had suffered prior heart attacks. From the waist down you'd
:::: be hard pressed to tell them from the 20-somethings.
:::
::: No, I think you missed the point. Intervals and climbing (LT
::: training) improve cardio-vascular conditioning as well as muscle
::: mass.
::
:: No argument.
::
::: The one thing that was clear from the OP's post it's clear he
::: was doing too much volume, and not enough intensity.
::
:: Not clear to me.
::
::: In order to
::: improve his LT he needs to shift his training more towards
::: intensity. This will allow him to ride longer _faster_ (with enough
::: left in the tank), which I believe was what he was really asking.
:::
::: For long endurance rides one needs to train in _all_ heart rate
::: zones (except maybe >=95% of max HR). I'll leave what constitutes
::: max HR argument for another day.
:::
::
:: The OP described normally riding 40 miles or so but getting fatigued
:: toward the end of longer rides (70-90 mi). This is pretty typical. I
:: disagree that the solution is to ride with more intensity. It's not
:: unusual to see extremely fit riders who are not used to distance
:: riding fade dramatically when the distance gets significantly longer
:: than their usual rides ( >150%). Long distance riding seems to
:: require different capabilities (physiological). I don't know why
:: that is, but that just seems to be the way it works.
If he wants to ride faster and longer, then a combination of intervals with
longer rides will be his solution, assuming that his weight & the terrain
will not limit him. He will need to build up to longer rides at higher
intensity. Also, group riding will probably benefit him too in terms of
getting his mental mojo going for hard & fast.
Sounds like the solution is to practice riding the kinds of rides you want
to do.
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 12:25:29
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Roger Zoul wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
> :: damyth wrote:
> ::: Peter Cole wrote:
> :::: damyth wrote:
> ::::: You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no
> ::::: point in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn
> ::::: yourself out too early, since older people generally don't have
> ::::: as much muscle mass as younger folks.
> :::::
> :::: Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One
> :::: of the main reasons that long distance riding is popular with
> :::: older riders is because they can still be competitive as it really
> :::: has nothing to do with peak capacities.
> ::::
> :::: There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that rode
> :::: a very respectable race, especially given that they were all over
> :::: 75 and had suffered prior heart attacks. From the waist down you'd
> :::: be hard pressed to tell them from the 20-somethings.
> :::
> ::: No, I think you missed the point. Intervals and climbing (LT
> ::: training) improve cardio-vascular conditioning as well as muscle
> ::: mass.
> ::
> :: No argument.
> ::
> ::: The one thing that was clear from the OP's post it's clear he
> ::: was doing too much volume, and not enough intensity.
> ::
> :: Not clear to me.
> ::
> ::: In order to
> ::: improve his LT he needs to shift his training more towards
> ::: intensity. This will allow him to ride longer _faster_ (with enough
> ::: left in the tank), which I believe was what he was really asking.
> :::
> ::: For long endurance rides one needs to train in _all_ heart rate
> ::: zones (except maybe >=95% of max HR). I'll leave what constitutes
> ::: max HR argument for another day.
> :::
> ::
> :: The OP described normally riding 40 miles or so but getting fatigued
> :: toward the end of longer rides (70-90 mi). This is pretty typical. I
> :: disagree that the solution is to ride with more intensity. It's not
> :: unusual to see extremely fit riders who are not used to distance
> :: riding fade dramatically when the distance gets significantly longer
> :: than their usual rides (>150%). Long distance riding seems to
> :: require different capabilities (physiological). I don't know why
> :: that is, but that just seems to be the way it works.
>
> If he wants to ride faster and longer, then a combination of intervals with
> longer rides will be his solution, assuming that his weight & the terrain
> will not limit him.
Nope.
> He will need to build up to longer rides at higher
> intensity.
Yup, but time/distance is the key.
> Also, group riding will probably benefit him too in terms of
> getting his mental mojo going for hard & fast.
Going long is different than going fast.
> Sounds like the solution is to practice riding the kinds of rides you want
> to do.
Yup. Long for long. There is really no other way.
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 17:46:53
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Peter Cole wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Peter Cole wrote:
::::: damyth wrote:
:::::: Peter Cole wrote:
::::::: damyth wrote:
:::::::: You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no
:::::::: point in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll
:::::::: burn yourself out too early, since older people generally
:::::::: don't have as much muscle mass as younger folks.
::::::::
::::::: Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One
::::::: of the main reasons that long distance riding is popular with
::::::: older riders is because they can still be competitive as it
::::::: really has nothing to do with peak capacities.
:::::::
::::::: There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that
::::::: rode a very respectable race, especially given that they were
::::::: all over 75 and had suffered prior heart attacks. From the
::::::: waist down you'd be hard pressed to tell them from the
::::::: 20-somethings.
::::::
:::::: No, I think you missed the point. Intervals and climbing (LT
:::::: training) improve cardio-vascular conditioning as well as muscle
:::::: mass.
:::::
::::: No argument.
:::::
:::::: The one thing that was clear from the OP's post it's clear he
:::::: was doing too much volume, and not enough intensity.
:::::
::::: Not clear to me.
:::::
:::::: In order to
:::::: improve his LT he needs to shift his training more towards
:::::: intensity. This will allow him to ride longer _faster_ (with
:::::: enough left in the tank), which I believe was what he was really
:::::: asking.
::::::
:::::: For long endurance rides one needs to train in _all_ heart rate
:::::: zones (except maybe >=95% of max HR). I'll leave what
:::::: constitutes max HR argument for another day.
::::::
:::::
::::: The OP described normally riding 40 miles or so but getting
::::: fatigued toward the end of longer rides (70-90 mi). This is
::::: pretty typical. I disagree that the solution is to ride with more
::::: intensity. It's not unusual to see extremely fit riders who are
::::: not used to distance riding fade dramatically when the distance
::::: gets significantly longer than their usual rides ( >150%). Long
::::: distance riding seems to require different capabilities
::::: (physiological). I don't know why that is, but that just seems to
::::: be the way it works.
:::
::: If he wants to ride faster and longer, then a combination of
::: intervals with longer rides will be his solution, assuming that his
::: weight & the terrain will not limit him.
::
:: Nope.
::
::: He will need to build up to longer rides at higher
::: intensity.
::
:: Yup, but time/distance is the key.
::
::: Also, group riding will probably benefit him too in terms of
::: getting his mental mojo going for hard & fast.
::
:: Going long is different than going fast.
::
I agree. And what if you want to do both, or longer and faster (as opposed
to long and fast)?
::: Sounds like the solution is to practice riding the kinds of rides
::: you want to do.
::
:: Yup. Long for long. There is really no other way.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 02:37:39
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
>
> I agree. And what if you want to do both, or longer and faster (as opposed
> to long and fast)?
>
> ::: Sounds like the solution is to practice riding the kinds of rides
> ::: you want to do.
> ::
> :: Yup. Long for long. There is really no other way.
>
> Most training for racing, is to prepare you for accelerations, like in a
race. There are no accelerations in long distance riding. So basically, if
you want to go fast and long, is just use something as simple as your
average speed on your computer. Go 50 miles at the average speed you want
to do the event. Then try 100 miles for that average speed, etc.
Obviously, over 100 miles, it's going to be a very long day, so try to up
that avg speed 1 or 2 mph, for 100 miles. Then if you do a 200 mile event,
it will drop a couple mph, but you'll be where your goal is. It's not
accelerations, it's concentration at not letting that speed drop. Keeping
the hammer down, but not all the way. Eating is so individual, I wouldn't
even dare to suggest what people should do, but it is important to find out
what's good for you. I'm a cliff bar, short breaks type of guy. But I've
seen some that'll stop at a KFC chicken joint, and then just hammer down the
road for hours, like they're on fire.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 16:54:48
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 5:29 pm, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzo...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> :: On Jul 2, 10:48 am, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
> ::: On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::
> :::: I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and
> :::: yesterday, a 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger
> :::: folks, most of whom are faster than I.
> :::
> :::: On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride
> :::: being around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride
> :::: during the week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I
> :::: know I tend not to push too hard when I'm alone.
> :::
> :::: But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before
> :::: the end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate
> :::: breakfast, ate a banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on
> :::: dried apricots and almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75
> :::: km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade at 114 km, and drank a good deal of
> :::: water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
> :::
> :::: The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
> :::: seemed civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 -
> :::: 19 mph). when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow
> :::: down much, but I did. I'm used to that.
> :::
> :::: What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
> :::
> ::: 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> ::: drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
> ::: 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable
> ::: gear range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
> ::: shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
> ::: 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
> ::: days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
> ::: about 200-300 grams of carbs.
> ::: 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
> ::: as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a
> ::: heart rate monitor.
> ::: 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be
> ::: patient and keep doing what you love doing.- Hide quoted text -
> :::
> ::: - Show quoted text -
> ::
> :: your carbo loading recommendation is just pure nonesense, in my
> :: opinion. you are talking of only a 100mi ride, 6 hrs or so at a
> :: steady pace. all that food in the gut will serioursly hamper his
> :: ride and make it extremely uncomfortable. a simple breakfast cereal
> :: and milk will do. a long ride is best done with little or no food in
> :: the gut and can be done using gatorade or similar and plenty of
> :: water. an empty gut absorbs liquid a lot quicker and easier. it's
> :: much better on a hot day generally. 6 hours no solid food is easy-
> :: not a big deal at all. he's not a starving famine victim from a 3rd
> :: world country- there should be enough fat on him to go for weeks.
> :: alcohol impares the body's ability to metabolize body fat so that
> :: should be cut out entirely. his pace should stay below the anaerobic
> :: zone. riding at a steady pace with only minimal stops when
> :: necessary. at 65k regularily he should be able to go up to 100k once
> :: in awhile and that experience should allow 160kms achieveable. what
> :: he needs is to get his body and mind used to going a bit further
> :: than he does now- once he's doing that 65kms will seem like a ride
> :: around the block- too short in fact. I speak from plenty of
> :: experience.
>
> It depends. If you weigh 135 lbs that may be so. If you weigh 230lbs that
> may not be so.
> If you ride hills at a fast pace to elevate the heart rate, it wont' be so.
> It also depends on what one has been eating prior to the ride and what kind
> of activity one has been engaged in. The body will only go to fat stores to
> supply moderate energy needs (low to mid range HR). If you push up HR, then
> gylcogen fuel is needed to a greater degree than otherwise.
> So, while you speak from experience, you are but one person. I do agree
> that it isn't good to ride with a full gut, though. No question about that.
> But carb loading doesn't imply riding on a full belly.
agreed
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 16:50:41
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 1:08 pm, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 12:18 pm, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 10:48 am, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > > > 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > > > are faster than I.
>
> > > > On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > > > around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > > > week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> > > > to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> > > > But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > > > end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > > > banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > > > almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> > > > at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> > > > The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> > > > civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> > > > when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> > > > did. I'm used to that.
>
> > > > What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> > > 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> > > drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
> > > 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable gear
> > > range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
> > > shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
> > > 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
> > > days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
> > > about 200-300 grams of carbs.
> > > 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
> > > as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a heart
> > > rate monitor.
> > > 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be patient
> > > and keep doing what you love doing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > your carbo loading recommendation is just pure nonesense, in my
> > opinion. you are talking of only a 100mi ride, 6 hrs or so at a steady
> > pace. all that food in the gut will serioursly hamper his ride and
> > make it extremely uncomfortable. a simple breakfast cereal and milk
> > will do. a long ride is best done with little or no food in the gut
> > and can be done using gatorade or similar and plenty of water. an
> > empty gut absorbs liquid a lot quicker and easier. it's much better on
> > a hot day generally. 6 hours no solid food is easy- not a big deal at
> > all. he's not a starving famine victim from a 3rd world country- there
> > should be enough fat on him to go for weeks. alcohol impares the
> > body's ability to metabolize body fat so that should be cut out
> > entirely. his pace should stay below the anaerobic zone. riding at a
> > steady pace with only minimal stops when necessary. at 65k regularily
> > he should be able to go up to 100k once in awhile and that experience
> > should allow 160kms achieveable. what he needs is to get his body and
> > mind used to going a bit further than he does now- once he's doing
> > that 65kms will seem like a ride around the block- too short in fact.
> > I speak from plenty of experience.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Carb loading will seem non-sense for some but for others it works. Its
> a purely personal thing I guess. You also have to think about what
> terrain and pace one is riding in, because it is more than likely in
> that care that the body is not in fat burning zone, but requires more
> of muscle glycogen. So it really depends, and is not nonsense. Carb
> loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
> "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
actually I have a copy of his book on top of my computer case right
here... I apologize I hope I did not come across too harsh or snarky,
certainly not personally to you either...you are right that it will
depend on where and how fast but carbo loading for a moderate distance
at moderate speed or effort will read to most as a requirement to
gorge beforehand- a simple corn flakes and milk breakfast should
fulfill the "carbo loading"- at about 3 or 4 hours glycogen stores are
used, no matter what you ate beforehand and you need to start fueling
on the go. an empty stomach helps that fuel on the go and you won't
get sick or suffer intestinal discomfort on the road. maybe your
system is different than mine, maybe your advice is better or will
work better for him, but I say what I know what works for me.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:08:23
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
raamman@gmail.com wrote:
:: actually I have a copy of his book on top of my computer case right
:: here... I apologize I hope I did not come across too harsh or snarky,
:: certainly not personally to you either...you are right that it will
:: depend on where and how fast but carbo loading for a moderate
:: distance at moderate speed or effort will read to most as a
:: requirement to gorge beforehand- a simple corn flakes and milk
:: breakfast should fulfill the "carbo loading"- at about 3 or 4 hours
:: glycogen stores are used, no matter what you ate beforehand and you
:: need to start fueling on the go. an empty stomach helps that fuel on
:: the go and you won't get sick or suffer intestinal discomfort on the
:: road. maybe your system is different than mine, maybe your advice
:: is better or will work better for him, but I say what I know what
:: works for me.
I find I always ride better (ie, more comfortable and this more enjoyable)
if I start on an empty stomach and start eating small bits along the way. I
can't speak for others, but that seems to work for me. Or, if I can put
some time between eating and riding, I'm ok. But in the summers I like to
start at first light, so that makes it harder to eat with a time span in
between riding.
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 18:16:45
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:08:23 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I find I always ride better (ie, more comfortable and this more enjoyable)
>if I start on an empty stomach and start eating small bits along the way. I
>can't speak for others, but that seems to work for me.
That's interesting. I read a guy who claimed that, at most, an
endurance athlete exercising in the morning should eat just enough to
make up for energy used while resting overnight. Not sure I agree with
that, but it's intriguing.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 00:30:45
From: Michael Warner
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:08:23 -0400, Roger Zoul wrote:
> I find I always ride better (ie, more comfortable and this more enjoyable)
> if I start on an empty stomach and start eating small bits along the way. I
> can't speak for others, but that seems to work for me. Or, if I can put
> some time between eating and riding, I'm ok. But in the summers I like to
> start at first light, so that makes it harder to eat with a time span in
> between riding.
I find that some kinds of food cause discomfort if eaten just before
riding, and some don't. Bread and pasta are bad, but porridge (oats
or semolina), rice and soup are fine. It's worth experimenting to find
something that you can eat when there isn't time to digest it first.
--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 16:30:43
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 3:12 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Tom Nakashima wrote:
> > "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> >> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> > You're doing well for age 63,
> > -tom
>
> That's a bit patronizing, Tom, even for a Japanese.
Wow! This is different than calling Joe Lieberman Jew Lieberman?
>> I think that calling Senator Joe Lieberman Jew Lieberman speaks for
>> itself.
>I've got to agree with this.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 21:01:56
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
doug.landau@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 3:12 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Tom Nakashima wrote:
>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>>> You're doing well for age 63,
>>> -tom
>> That's a bit patronizing, Tom, even for a Japanese.
>
> Wow! This is different than calling Joe Lieberman Jew Lieberman?
>
>>> I think that calling Senator Joe Lieberman Jew Lieberman speaks for
>>> itself.
>
>> I've got to agree with this.
>
>
It's a joke, son.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 15:59:38
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 3:16 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 2:57 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > > > > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> > > > > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> > > > > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> > > > > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> > > > > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> > > > > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> > > > > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> > > > > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> > > > > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> > > > > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> > > > > can.
>
> > > > > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> > > > > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> > > > > routes with hills.
>
> > > > > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> > > > > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> > > > > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> > > > > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> > > > > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> > > > > ride yesterday.
>
> > > > I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> > > > and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> > > > comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> > > > pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> > > > bottles on
> > > > long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
> > > > the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> > > > back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> > > > use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> > > > warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
> > > > with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> > > > packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> > > > you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> > > > > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> > > > You're doing well for age 63,
>
> > > Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
> > > Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
> > > years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
> > > -- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
> > > age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
> > > just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
> > > next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
> > > have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
> > > before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
> > > increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
> > > fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
> > > resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
> > > your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
> > > are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
> > > racers. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> > In rowing, 30 somethings regularly get their a$$ kicked by 60-
> > somethings. I looked at the concept2 world rankings and found that on
> > the rowing machine, the fastest time in the Men's 60-69 category was
> > faster than the fastest time in any other category except Men's 19-29.
>
> > I asked my coach about it. He said: "The thing about old guys is, ...
> > they got a lotta time to train."
>
> With actual rowing, style is so important that I could see an older
> and more experienced rower with faster times. On an ergometer,
> though, I would not expect a 60+ elite rower to be faster than his 30
> year old peer. That is fascinating -- and weird. I don't think there
> is a bicycle corrolary. -- Jay Beattie.
Yes but I'm specifically talking about the ergometer, which removes
the detrimental effects of poor style. Browse the C2 rankings for
more surprises.
The point is, it matters much more what you do every day than how old
you are.
As an aside, the value of style in rowing speed is a topic of constant
debate, as you can imagine. But the bottom line is that the
fastest N rowers in the world consistently have most of the N fastest
erg scores too. Once in a while there will exist an athlete who pulls
world class times on the erg who does not in the boat. But the other
way around is extremely rare to nonexistant. You will not find a
rower with a competitive time in the boat who does not have a
similarly competitve time on the erg.
Doug
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 22:52:37
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
"his waning top end power by being very selective about
when he uses what he has, and by being tenatious in his pacing"
right. easy to stay in good physical condition if you are in good
physical condition, if you have always been more or less in good
physical condition and if you wrok at staying in good physical
condition. IF you don't suffer a career ending injury. That's the
problem: the career ending injury, a series of lesser injuries that
slowly reduce the conditioning.
Butbutbut that's not what you want. What you want is to continue being
or thinking you are an athlete at 63 like the riders ahead of you are
athletes at a lesser age. You want to be competitive with a group of
younger riders who dropped you. Not competitive with some younger
riders but a specific group demonstrating they are at an younger age
much faster over distance than you.
WHY BOTHER? you have 10-12 years of life left and you want to stress
your body, occupy your time in pursuit of a bunch of young jocks
faster than your age?
Carmichael/Armstong's training book offers an excellent training
analysis. you should deafinitely read it to evaluate your weaknesses,
to develop a strategy for improvement. If you can compare yourself to
the other true older athletes whose stamina amazes at 66.
I'm 62. there are people who for unknown reasons believe I'm 35-40.
Without actual training just Cooper style redundancy, I run 2 miles
without effort after a 40 minute swim thru the breakers. I run on a
beach. There's a pier 3.3 miles down the beach. Ten years ago, I would
run (run) down the beach to the pier every morning. Today my body sez,
sure you can run to the pier but why? That isn't going to make you
feel any better so ease up.
The big deal is avoiding injury thru apllications of experience.
Healing time is much longer than at 15/25/35. Not running to the pier
is part of my experience.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 17:39:43
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Very sensible points you make.
Still, these people are my current riding buddies, and you always want
to do what you can to gain your buddies' respect. (Who know, maybe I
already have it; they keep asking me to ride with them.)
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 15:16:22
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 2:57 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > > > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> > > > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> > > > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> > > > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> > > > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> > > > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> > > > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> > > > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> > > > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> > > > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> > > > can.
>
> > > > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> > > > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> > > > routes with hills.
>
> > > > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> > > > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> > > > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> > > > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> > > > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> > > > ride yesterday.
>
> > > I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> > > and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> > > comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> > > pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> > > bottles on
> > > long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
> > > the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> > > back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> > > use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> > > warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
> > > with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> > > packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> > > you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> > > > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> > > You're doing well for age 63,
>
> > Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
> > Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
> > years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
> > -- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
> > age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
> > just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
> > next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
> > have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
> > before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
> > increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
> > fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
> > resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
> > your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
> > are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
> > racers. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> In rowing, 30 somethings regularly get their a$$ kicked by 60-
> somethings. I looked at the concept2 world rankings and found that on
> the rowing machine, the fastest time in the Men's 60-69 category was
> faster than the fastest time in any other category except Men's 19-29.
>
> I asked my coach about it. He said: "The thing about old guys is, ...
> they got a lotta time to train."
With actual rowing, style is so important that I could see an older
and more experienced rower with faster times. On an ergometer,
though, I would not expect a 60+ elite rower to be faster than his 30
year old peer. That is fascinating -- and weird. I don't think there
is a bicycle corrolary. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 21:24:43
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Jul 2, 2:57 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Jul 2, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>>> Thanks to all for the input!
>>>>> I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
>>>>> ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
>>>>> steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>>>>> This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>>>>> Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
>>>>> smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
>>>>> Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>>>>> The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
>>>>> pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
>>>>> can.
>>>>> Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
>>>>> in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
>>>>> routes with hills.
>>>>> As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
>>>>> availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
>>>>> ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
>>>>> bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
>>>>> start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
>>>>> ride yesterday.
>>>> I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
>>>> and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
>>>> comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
>>>> pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
>>>> bottles on
>>>> long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
>>>> the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
>>>> back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
>>>> use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
>>>> warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
>>>> with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
>>>> packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
>>>> you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>>>>> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>>>> You're doing well for age 63,
>>> Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>>> Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
>>> years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
>>> -- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
>>> age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
>>> just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
>>> next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
>>> have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
>>> before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
>>> increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
>>> fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
>>> resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
>>> your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
>>> are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
>>> racers. -- Jay Beattie.
>> In rowing, 30 somethings regularly get their a$$ kicked by 60-
>> somethings. I looked at the concept2 world rankings and found that on
>> the rowing machine, the fastest time in the Men's 60-69 category was
>> faster than the fastest time in any other category except Men's 19-29.
>>
>> I asked my coach about it. He said: "The thing about old guys is, ...
>> they got a lotta time to train."
>
> With actual rowing, style is so important that I could see an older
> and more experienced rower with faster times. On an ergometer,
> though, I would not expect a 60+ elite rower to be faster than his 30
> year old peer. That is fascinating -- and weird. I don't think there
> is a bicycle corrolary. -- Jay Beattie.
>
Check out the results of last year's Mt Washington climb, look at the
age spread in the top 50 finishers:
http://www.tinmtn.org/mwarbh/results/results_06/index.cfm
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 14:57:40
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> > > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> > > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> > > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> > > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> > > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> > > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> > > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> > > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> > > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> > > can.
>
> > > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> > > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> > > routes with hills.
>
> > > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> > > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> > > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> > > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> > > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> > > ride yesterday.
>
> > I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> > and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> > comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> > pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> > bottles on
> > long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
> > the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> > back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> > use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> > warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
> > with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> > packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> > you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> > > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> > You're doing well for age 63,
>
> Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
> Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
> years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
> -- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
> age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
> just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
> next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
> have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
> before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
> increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
> fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
> resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
> your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
> are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
> racers. -- Jay Beattie.
In rowing, 30 somethings regularly get their a$$ kicked by 60-
somethings. I looked at the concept2 world rankings and found that on
the rowing machine, the fastest time in the Men's 60-69 category was
faster than the fastest time in any other category except Men's 19-29.
I asked my coach about it. He said: "The thing about old guys is, ...
they got a lotta time to train."
Doug
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 14:49:45
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 4:29 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> did. I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
80kg top heavy and 63 yo and still on fast long rides, it sounds like
you're doing pretty good to me. But when you had to let go did you
legs feel cooked? Was it on a hill? Was it on a hill you would have
been able to keep up on earlier in the ride? The difference is of
course is it endurance you need more of, or power?
One guy I ride with occasionally is a few years older than you, and he
makes up for his waning top end power by being very selective about
when he uses what he has, and by being tenatious in his pacing. Two
times on recent long rides (170km, 230km) he and I have finished
together despite him being dropped by the main group hours before I
was dropped by the main group. He just early on let go stategically
and picked the right wheels and moments to maximize what he had, while
I rode faster and all out until I got dropped, and then much slower
since I was wasted such that we met up at the end. There is no
question that I am much stronger than him, but by his cunning (and my
foolishness?) we had the same times for these events.
Joseph
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 14:30:55
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>
> news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks to all for the input!
>
> > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> > can.
>
> > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> > routes with hills.
>
> > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> > ride yesterday.
>
> I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
> and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
> comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
> pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
> bottles on
> long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
> the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
> back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
> use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
> warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
> with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
> packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
> you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>
> > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> You're doing well for age 63,
Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
Colin -- you do not have the same ability to recover as you did twenty
years ago, regardless of magical recovery drinks, carbo loading, etc.
-- not unless you are some freak of nature who is getting younger with
age. It may be that you need to work on intensity, but you probably
just need some rest. I would try some strategic resting before the
next long ride -- take a day off two days before the ride, or if you
have to ride, spin for twenty or less miles. See what that does
before you fall in the black hole of hill repeats, intervals,
increased miles (you are doing enough miles to be racing, BTW). In
fact, I see no reason for you to increase your mileage ever, and if
resting a little does not do it for you, then you should change up
your routine with some more intensity work as suggested above. There
are books on this that you can read, although their target audience is
racers. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 06:10:26
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:1183411855.249166.160390@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 12:57 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> "Colin Campbell" <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Thanks to all for the input!
>>
>> > I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
>> > ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
>> > steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at
>> > 5%.
>>
>> > This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>>
>> > Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use
>> > my
>> > smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle
>> > chainring.
>> > Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>>
>> > The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like
>> > serious
>> > pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
>> > can.
>>
>> > Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the
>> > vents
>> > in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
>> > routes with hills.
>>
>> > As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast
>> > food
>> > availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on
>> > yesterday's
>> > ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
>> > bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe
>> > I'll
>> > start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on
>> > the
>> > ride yesterday.
>>
>> I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
>> and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
>> comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
>> pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
>> bottles on
>> long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate
>> between
>> the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
>> back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
>> use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
>> warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle
>> up
>> with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
>> packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
>> you want it more diluted.http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
>>
>> > Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>>
>> You're doing well for age 63,
>
> Yah, like maybe he is over-doing it.
>
Collin's not embarrassing you, eh Jay? ;-)
-tom
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| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 13:35:08
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 1:09 pm, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> Thanks to all for the input!
>
> I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle
> chainring. Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I can.
>
> Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> routes with hills.
>
> As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast
> food availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on
> yesterday's ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy
> drinks in their bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that
> aspect. Maybe I'll start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike
> shop and went on the ride yesterday.
>
> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall, and I'm down
> from 188 pounds (85 kg) to 176 (80) in the past three months. I lift
> weights regularly, so I'm a bit top heavy for a cyclist. I ride a nice
> 18.6 pound (8.5 kg) Trek 5200 with a Campy Record triple setup, and I'm
> at 9820 km (about 6100 miles) for this year, well ahead of any previous
> year, though I've reached 10,000 miles the past two years. I ride in So
> Cal, so I have a choice of flat, hilly, or mountain routes close by.
You can use energy gels, but I personally don't like them They are too
sweet. A granola, trail mix, or fruit bar every hour with some diluted
gatorade should keep you going no problem. They taste better and they
are a lot cheaper. At Target you can get a box of granola or fruit
bars for about 3 bucks.
Regarding carbo loading, I agree with Raam. I think it si more
important to be fit and eat during the ride, than to stuff yourself
before the ride.
Regarding the training, get to it slowly. You can start with three
hard five minute climbs. You can do intensity work on flats too. You
can go for a long ride, and after a warmup, do five minutes hard, with
five minutes easy. You can do three minutes hard, two easy, etc.
Experiment with different things. You want to build your ability to
sustain a hard effort for several minutes and recover. You can try
different things and stick to the workout that you enjoy most.
If you go training on your own, sometimes, spontaneous intervals are a
lot more fun. You ride hard for a few minutes, easy another few. After
a while, you cover a lot of distance and it is more fun than one
sustained effort, and it builds more fitness.
When you go on long rides with fit people, most likely they will ride
at an aerobic pace for the majority of the ride. They will increase
the tempo on hills, a few harder efforts, when they are near a
turnaround, break stop, etc. What you want is to develop your ability
to sustain these increases in tempo and then recover well and fast so
that you can keep going and tolerate the next hard effort.
Doing interval, increase your capacity to do a hard effort, and your
body's ability to recover for the next effort. Good luck and keep it
up.
Andres
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| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 12:09:37
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Thanks to all for the input!
I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle
chainring. Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I can.
Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
routes with hills.
As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast
food availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on
yesterday's ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy
drinks in their bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that
aspect. Maybe I'll start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike
shop and went on the ride yesterday.
Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall, and I'm down
from 188 pounds (85 kg) to 176 (80) in the past three months. I lift
weights regularly, so I'm a bit top heavy for a cyclist. I ride a nice
18.6 pound (8.5 kg) Trek 5200 with a Campy Record triple setup, and I'm
at 9820 km (about 6100 miles) for this year, well ahead of any previous
year, though I've reached 10,000 miles the past two years. I ride in So
Cal, so I have a choice of flat, hilly, or mountain routes close by.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 22:10:02
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 12:09:37 -0700, Colin Campbell
<cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote:
>Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall, and I'm down
>from 188 pounds (85 kg) to 176 (80) in the past three months. I lift
>weights regularly, so I'm a bit top heavy for a cyclist. I ride a nice
>18.6 pound (8.5 kg) Trek 5200 with a Campy Record triple setup, and I'm
>at 9820 km (about 6100 miles) for this year, well ahead of any previous
>year, though I've reached 10,000 miles the past two years. I ride in So
>Cal, so I have a choice of flat, hilly, or mountain routes close by.
Rock on.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 17:42:39
From: dvt
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Colin Campbell wrote:
> Thanks to all for the input!
You didn't address this suggestion from Ron George:
> Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
Knowing how to draft can make a *huge* difference. If the others have
this skill and you don't, you're working much harder than they.
I'm not saying you don't have these skills; I'm just saying that
nutrition and training may not close the gap caused by the difference in
skills if such a difference exists.
By the way, I'd say you're in very good shape for any age.
--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu
Everyone confesses that exertion which brings out all the powers of body
and mind is the best thing for us; but most people do all they can to
get rid of it, and as a general rule nobody does much more than
circumstances drive them to do. -Harriet Beecher Stowe, abolitionist and
novelist (1811-1896)
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 17:33:44
From: Colin Campbell
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
dvt wrote:
> Colin Campbell wrote:
>> Thanks to all for the input!
>
> You didn't address this suggestion from Ron George:
>
>> Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
>> drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
>
> Knowing how to draft can make a *huge* difference. If the others have
> this skill and you don't, you're working much harder than they.
>
> I'm not saying you don't have these skills; I'm just saying that
> nutrition and training may not close the gap caused by the difference in
> skills if such a difference exists.
>
> By the way, I'd say you're in very good shape for any age.
>
I have ridden in groups for over 20 years, on the road and at the track,
and I'm a pretty good wheel sucker, and I'm not too proud to do it!
(Last weekend, I drafted my buddy, who is "almost 5'3" and 110 lbs as we
tried to catch our friends. When I tried to take my turn, she would
just pass me back in a few hundred meters, so what else could I do?)
I put in only a few stints at the front, and drafted religiously for
probably half of yesterday's ride. I'd have drafted more if I hadn't
gotten dropped!
I'm really kind of surprised that I seemed to have endurance problems on
these rides. But as someone else said, the retired have lots of time to
train, so I'll work on it. I'm of the opinion that my Saturday ride may
have contributed to my Sunday problem. I rode up a 6 km climb without
resorting to my smallest chain ring (I have a triple), for the first
time I can recall on that climb. We stopped after the one climb (of
three on that route) and turned around, but it still may have been too
much for me.
Heck, if it weren't for the reading glasses, the hearing aids, the
phlebitis in my left leg, the bum left knee, the loss of hair, and
whatever else, I'd agree about being in good shape! Still, I'm in
pretty fair shape for the shape I'm in....
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 12:57:37
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
"Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote in message
news:46894d6e$0$31285$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Thanks to all for the input!
>
> I'll try to increase my hill work. In recent weeks, I've been doing a
> ride that takes me up a longish (4 km) hill, across a saddle, then up a
> steeper (6%) hill of 2.6 km, down the other side, and back up 4 km at 5%.
>
> This ends up being about 750 meters or 2500 feet of climbing.
>
> Last Saturday, I rode up a different 6 km climb where I've had to use my
> smallest chainring, and I never needed to get out of the middle chainring.
> Maybe that was part of my Sunday problems, though.
>
> The recommendation to do a fairly hard climb 5 times sounds like serious
> pain, but what the heck, if I can't do it at first, I'll get to where I
> can.
>
> Once I get over my sunburn (I forgot my head was exposed under the vents
> in the helmet!), I'll do some longer rides, and I'll probably pick some
> routes with hills.
>
> As for the diet recommendations, I've pretty much lived off the fast food
> availability on long rides in the past. Most of the others on yesterday's
> ride were taking in Goo (Gu?), energy bars, had energy drinks in their
> bottles, etc. I guess I need to learn more about that aspect. Maybe I'll
> start with the ex-pro racer who owns the local bike shop and went on the
> ride yesterday.
I've also used the GU Energy Gel, good stuff, it gets to your system fast
and last for about 20 miles of hard riding, at least it did for me. It
comes in different flavors. They're light and easy to pack in a jersey
pocket.The other thing to have is the Gu20 Sports Drink. I carry two
bottles on
long rides, one filled with water, the other with Gu20. I alternate between
the two when drinking. I also carry an extra packet of the Gu20 in the
back pocket of my jersey. When mixing the Gu20 (it's in powered form)
use about a 1/4 bottle filled with water, the water should also be luke
warm., this dissolves the Gu20 faster, then fill the rest of the bottle up
with cold water. They also sell the Gu20 in a larger container, but the
packets are just the right size for a small water bottle, large bottle if
you want it more diluted.
http://www.gusports.com/html/products.htm
> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
You're doing well for age 63,
-tom
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:12:33
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Tom Nakashima wrote:
> "Colin Campbell" <cmcampb@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>> Just for the record, I'm 63 years old, about 6 feet tall,
>
> You're doing well for age 63,
> -tom
That's a bit patronizing, Tom, even for a Japanese.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 11:53:56
From: damyth
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Colin Campbell wrote:
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> did. I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no point
in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn yourself
out too early, since older people generally don't have as much muscle
mass as younger folks.
It's not clear from your narrative whether you burned yourself out (by
going too fast early on) or whether you lack endurance. While the end
result may be the same (i.e., perhaps you didn't finish), these are
two different things entirely. I suspect you may be really asking
"How can I finish X miles faster (and keep up with the young ones)?"
instead of "Will I finish X miles?" See the difference?
If you're really asking for the former, I'd suggest adding intensity
training. If you are already riding >200mi/wk for more than 2-3
months, you should have enough of a baseline to start intensity
training. This means more hills or intervals. In fact you you do
more intensity you may even get by with less volume in training with
higher benefits.
If you're doing 200+ mi/wk of virtually exclusive LSD (long slow
distance), you're not making effective use of your training time.
Variety will also keep your riding motivation higher.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:09:26
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
damyth wrote:
> You don't say how old you are. If you're older there may be no point
> in attempting to keep up with the young folks, you'll burn yourself
> out too early, since older people generally don't have as much muscle
> mass as younger folks.
>
Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One of the
main reasons that long distance riding is popular with older riders is
because they can still be competitive as it really has nothing to do
with peak capacities.
There was a 4-man RAAM relay team a couple of years back that rode a
very respectable race, especially given that they were all over 75 and
had suffered prior heart attacks. From the waist down you'd be hard
pressed to tell them from the 20-somethings.
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 01:16:05
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One of the
> main reasons that long distance riding is popular with older riders is
> because they can still be competitive as it really has nothing to do
> with peak capacities.
-----------
Exactly! A lot of stupid racing advice that has little to do with
endurance.
1. 200+ mile rides, usually don't attract that many riders to draft. Learn
how to ride without drafting.
2. Age, sometimes is an advantage, not a disadvantage, as endurance is
mostly mental.
3. Do the short high intensity, if you want to go fast, but there is no
substitute for riding long rides, if that's your goal.
4. Many problems surface on 200 mile rides, that will never appear on 100
mile rides.
5. Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not against others. I
wouldn't even pay attention to what the others are doing. The biggest
enemy, is yourself.
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Jul 2007 22:07:36
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 5, 8:25 pm, "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
> > > ...
> > > In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> > > joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> > > almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>
> > I thought the seat was supposed to hold the rider's body up?
>
> > --
>
> I think he means holding your head up. Try sleeping in a sitting position,
> the head eventually drops.
I need to get a headrest for my trike - lock a brake with a rubber
band, and it is nap time... [zzzzz]
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2007 07:30:41
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:07:36 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>On Jul 5, 8:25 pm, "Callistus Valerius" wrote:
>> > > ...
>> > > In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
>> > > joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
>> > > almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>>
>> > I thought the seat was supposed to hold the rider's body up?
>>
>> > --
>>
>> I think he means holding your head up. Try sleeping in a sitting position,
>> the head eventually drops.
>
>I need to get a headrest for my trike - lock a brake with a rubber
>band, and it is nap time... [zzzzz]
I fell asleep for a split second on my bike once -- very scary.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2007 02:42:18
From: bjw@mambo.ucolick.org
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 5, 5:52 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jul 5, 7:05 am, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> > ...
> > In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> > joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> > almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>
> I thought the seat was supposed to hold the rider's body up?
Real ultracyclists don't use a seat, they ride the whole
200 miles standing up. If you're just sitting on a seat
the whole time, you can hardly call it an endurance event.
You might as well be on the couch watching TV.
Ben
Ultramontane Biker
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Jul 2007 17:52:57
From: Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 5, 7:05 am, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> ...
> In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
I thought the seat was supposed to hold the rider's body up?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2007 01:25:20
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> > ...
> > In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> > joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> > almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>
> I thought the seat was supposed to hold the rider's body up?
>
> --
I think he means holding your head up. Try sleeping in a sitting position,
the head eventually drops.
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Jul 2007 20:25:34
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 5, 5:05 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 03:27:58 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
>
> <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe I should ask, what isn't an endurance
> >distance?
>
> Depends on how you define it. From an exercise physiology basis it
> could be only events shorter than 8 to 15 minutes -- this is looking
> at the energy systems involved in the actvity, with events longer than
> that using similar sysems.
>
More like 4. A seven minute, 2000 meter rowing race is not a sprint
- that's what makes it so interesting. You have to budget yourself so
you don't collapse in the 3d 500 meters. How hard you go out in the
first 500 and when you start your sprint for the finish line are your
strategy.
The pain in the third 500m is searing and hard to describe but
subsides a bit in the fourth 500m, as the energy source transitions
from anaerobic to aerobic, and lactate is carried away, I suppose.
"It's all about how bad you want it in the third 500" is something you
hear a lot.
dkl
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Jul 2007 06:26:16
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 5, 8:56 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > > Maybe I should ask, what isn't an endurance
> > >distance?
>
> > Depends on how you define it. From an exercise physiology basis it
> > could be only events shorter than 8 to 15 minutes -- this is looking
> > at the energy systems involved in the actvity, with events longer than
> > that using similar sysems.
>
> > In cycling, since most people, even people relatively untrained can
> > tolerate riding for an hour and people with experience but little
> > recent training can probably tolerate a couple hours, rides of less
> > than an hour or two are probably not endurance rides.
>
> > In terms of energy systems used on the bike (apart from talking about
> > joint pain, chafing, and pain in holding one's body up) there is
> > almost no practical difference before a four and eight hour rides.
>
> > --
> > JT
>
> ==========
> Maybe this is the misunderstanding, I am not talking about from a physiology
> point of view. The way the word "endurance" is used in the common usage, is
> very long events, whether it's running, swimming or cycling. Now maybe from
> physiological perspective a person going from the couch to the refrigerator
> and back might be an endurance event, but if I told people I know in the
> ultracycling community that I did a 1 or 2 hour "endurance" ride they would
> laugh at me. Endurance means like enduring 14 hours in the saddle, not
> whether which energy sources are being used by the body. That's important,
> but usually that would fall under the "nutrition" discussion, which could
> fill a bible, since everyone is so different.
"Everyone is so different" indeed! Seems obvious to me that there is
no official definition of "endurance event." And it seems just as
obvious that an event testing one person's endurance might be a walk
in the park to a second person, and might kill a third. It's got to
be subjective.
Given that, it doesn't make much sense to put down a century ride as
non-endurance. I'm sure the vast majority of participants think a
century tests theiir endurance.
The ultracycling community is extreme by definition - and by your
portrayal, more than a little elitist. Their laughter counts for
nothing.
- Frank Krygowski
|
| | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 19:09:46
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 4, 7:56 pm, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote:
> > You posted obnoxious nonsense about endurance in this group, and I
> > have little tolerance for nonsense, especially obnoxious nonsense. If
> > that makes me anti-social in your eyes, so be it.
>
> > I'm not paranoid but am certainly aggressive. So what? Better
> > aggressive than stupid.
> > --
> > JT
>
> =======
> Put the sherm down for a second, and collect yourself. After all we're only
> talking about bikes.
That's easy for you to say......to some, it is Very Important Stuff,
and no nonsense will be tolerated. ;-)
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 22:18:50
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 01:16:05 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> Endurance riding has little to do with muscle mass/strength. One of the
>> main reasons that long distance riding is popular with older riders is
>> because they can still be competitive as it really has nothing to do
>> with peak capacities.
>-----------
>Exactly! A lot of stupid racing advice that has little to do with
>endurance.
>
>1. 200+ mile rides, usually don't attract that many riders to draft. Learn
>how to ride without drafting.
>2. Age, sometimes is an advantage, not a disadvantage, as endurance is
>mostly mental.
>3. Do the short high intensity, if you want to go fast, but there is no
>substitute for riding long rides, if that's your goal.
>4. Many problems surface on 200 mile rides, that will never appear on 100
>mile rides.
>5. Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not against others. I
>wouldn't even pay attention to what the others are doing. The biggest
>enemy, is yourself.
Typical - the guy is talking about 70 and 90 mile rides and some nutty
guy starts talking about 200 miles rides. Who cares?
Your line " Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not against
others" says a lot about yourself - in particular not paying attention
to the OP's question or circumstances.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 09:52:40
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> Typical - the guy is talking about 70 and 90 mile rides and some nutty
> guy starts talking about 200 miles rides. Who cares?
>
> Your line " Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not against
> others" says a lot about yourself - in particular not paying attention
> to the OP's question or circumstances.
> --
> JT
----------
Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance, unless you're a beginner.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:14:08
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Callistus Valerius wrote:
::: Typical - the guy is talking about 70 and 90 mile rides and some
::: nutty guy starts talking about 200 miles rides. Who cares?
:::
::: Your line " Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not
::: against others" says a lot about yourself - in particular not
::: paying attention to the OP's question or circumstances.
::: --
::: JT
:: ----------
:: Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance,
It depends. What if you weigh 300 lbs?
:: unless you're a beginner.
Define beginner.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 02:13:21
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> :: Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance,
>
> It depends. What if you weigh 300 lbs?
>
> :: unless you're a beginner.
>
> Define beginner.
------------
The first century ride is a rite of passage. I remember my first one, and
indeed I thought it was endurance. But now it's just a weekend ride. With
the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles. So a beginner
would be someone who thinks a century ride is endurance, like I thought when
I was a beginner. What got me peeved is when people give all this training
advice to a beginner. First you have to get thousands of base miles in
before any type of training would even be helpful. Most people ride for
fun, not to race. So a lot of training is just stupid, makes cycling not
fun. But don't get me wrong, I think everyone should go through it at least
one season, just so they understand what it's all about. I did it about 4
years, which was really 2 years too long in my case. There's a lot more
that you can do with a bike, that's actually fun, instead of intervals,
boring short high intensity rides, where you see nothing but your hrm. My
speed dropped off a couple mph, without training, but now I do about 3 times
the miles, see a lot scenery, fresh air, and even occasionally have a beer
without feeling guilty.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 09:19:33
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:13:21 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>With
>the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles.
The people you know sound like dumbasses.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 16:39:12
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> >With
> >the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles.
>
> The people you know sound like dumbasses.
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
take it easy on the t-patches, you're being anti-social.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 04 Jul 2007 16:26:39
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:39:12 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> >With
>> >the people I know, endurance means anything over 200 miles.
>>
>> The people you know sound like dumbasses.
>>
> take it easy on the t-patches, you're being anti-social.
Better anti-social than stupid.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 07:45:31
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:52:40 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> Typical - the guy is talking about 70 and 90 mile rides and some nutty
>> guy starts talking about 200 miles rides. Who cares?
>>
>> Your line " Endurance is usually a race against yourself, not against
>> others" says a lot about yourself - in particular not paying attention
>> to the OP's question or circumstances.
>----------
>Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance, unless you're a beginner
You're a jackass.
--
JT
****************************
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 13:12:35
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
> >Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance, unless you're a beginner
>
> You're a jackass.
> --
> JT
-------------
I just call a spade a spade, Jt. What are you, one of those two-bit
trainers. Rock-on---you're a moron.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 18:14:35
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 13:12:35 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
>> >Less than 100 mile rides is not endurance, unless you're a beginner
>>
>> You're a jackass.
>> --
>> JT
>-------------
>I just call a spade a spade, Jt.
No, you're wrong about endurance. And a jackass.
> What are you, one of those two-bit
>trainers. Rock-on---you're a moron.
I don't train anyone. Coached a rider (in tactics/technique, not
fitness) to a masters national championship once, but no more coaching
for me.
--
JT
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| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 13:24:26
From: Ron Hardin
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
I used to ride a century every Saturday and every Sunday, always the
same route that I liked, back when I had a road bike and lots of time.
No special meals or anything. A couple stops, one for breakfast
(a pancake house) and one for lunch (a rural fast food).
Really long distances were easier in a light rain, which I guess
cleaned the air of dust and debris.
I think there's no unusual requirement for 100 miles, but maybe you
get really efficient at it with practice so it doesn't matter.
Today with my MTB it would probably be another matter. Speed just
from tire drag is a lot less, which makes the distance more formidable.
--
Ron Hardin
rhhardin@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:19:41
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Ron Hardin wrote:
:: I used to ride a century every Saturday and every Sunday, always the
:: same route that I liked, back when I had a road bike and lots of
:: time. No special meals or anything. A couple stops, one for
:: breakfast (a pancake house) and one for lunch (a rural fast food).
::
Pancakes are carbs. What kind of diet where you eating prior to the
weekend? Lots of carbs, I bet. Thus, given you were already eating a high
carb diet and you stopped for more carbs, you didn't need much else.
Also, the type of terrain you were riding and your weight factor in, as well
as the relative intensity of your rides. The requirements for a 150 lb
rider are not the same as those for a 220 lb rider.
So the requirements for 100 miles really depends.
I certainly think that what you're saying is possible for a lot of folks, so
don't misunderstand me.
:: Really long distances were easier in a light rain, which I guess
:: cleaned the air of dust and debris.
::
:: I think there's no unusual requirement for 100 miles, but maybe you
:: get really efficient at it with practice so it doesn't matter.
::
:: Today with my MTB it would probably be another matter. Speed just
:: from tire drag is a lot less, which makes the distance more
:: formidable.
::
:: --
:: Ron Hardin
:: rhhardin@mindspring.com
::
:: On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 17:34:20
From: Ron Hardin
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Roger Zoul wrote:
>
> Ron Hardin wrote:
> :: I used to ride a century every Saturday and every Sunday, always the
> :: same route that I liked, back when I had a road bike and lots of
> :: time. No special meals or anything. A couple stops, one for
> :: breakfast (a pancake house) and one for lunch (a rural fast food).
> ::
>
> Pancakes are carbs. What kind of diet where you eating prior to the
> weekend? Lots of carbs, I bet. Thus, given you were already eating a high
> carb diet and you stopped for more carbs, you didn't need much else.
>
> Also, the type of terrain you were riding and your weight factor in, as well
> as the relative intensity of your rides. The requirements for a 150 lb
> rider are not the same as those for a 220 lb rider.
>
> So the requirements for 100 miles really depends.
>
> I certainly think that what you're saying is possible for a lot of folks, so
> don't misunderstand me.
Nothing special eaten before. I weighed (and weigh) about 150 pounds.
I really think that experience is the key, producing very high efficiency,
which is partly physiological and partly choosing exactly the right gear all the time,
so you simply don't burn through any unusual amount of energy, as a beginner does,
and presumably others to a lesser degree do as well.
--
Ron Hardin
rhhardin@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
|
| |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 10:08:12
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Jul 2, 12:18 pm, raam...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 10:48 am, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> > > I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > > 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > > are faster than I.
>
> > > On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > > around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > > week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> > > to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> > > But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > > end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > > banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > > almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> > > at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> > > The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> > > civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> > > when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> > > did. I'm used to that.
>
> > > What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> > 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> > drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
> > 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable gear
> > range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
> > shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
> > 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
> > days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
> > about 200-300 grams of carbs.
> > 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
> > as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a heart
> > rate monitor.
> > 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be patient
> > and keep doing what you love doing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> your carbo loading recommendation is just pure nonesense, in my
> opinion. you are talking of only a 100mi ride, 6 hrs or so at a steady
> pace. all that food in the gut will serioursly hamper his ride and
> make it extremely uncomfortable. a simple breakfast cereal and milk
> will do. a long ride is best done with little or no food in the gut
> and can be done using gatorade or similar and plenty of water. an
> empty gut absorbs liquid a lot quicker and easier. it's much better on
> a hot day generally. 6 hours no solid food is easy- not a big deal at
> all. he's not a starving famine victim from a 3rd world country- there
> should be enough fat on him to go for weeks. alcohol impares the
> body's ability to metabolize body fat so that should be cut out
> entirely. his pace should stay below the anaerobic zone. riding at a
> steady pace with only minimal stops when necessary. at 65k regularily
> he should be able to go up to 100k once in awhile and that experience
> should allow 160kms achieveable. what he needs is to get his body and
> mind used to going a bit further than he does now- once he's doing
> that 65kms will seem like a ride around the block- too short in fact.
> I speak from plenty of experience.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Carb loading will seem non-sense for some but for others it works. Its
a purely personal thing I guess. You also have to think about what
terrain and pace one is riding in, because it is more than likely in
that care that the body is not in fat burning zone, but requires more
of muscle glycogen. So it really depends, and is not nonsense. Carb
loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
"High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2007 18:03:39
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
ron.r.george@gmail.com wrote:
> Carb
> loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
> "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
>
Yeah, he was the guy who wrote about cardio fitness & dropped dead from
a heart attack. No thanks.
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Jul 2007 10:05:20
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
Peter Cole wrote:
:: ron.r.george@gmail.com wrote:
::: Carb
::: loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
::: "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
:::
::
:: Yeah, he was the guy who wrote about cardio fitness & dropped dead
:: from a heart attack. No thanks.
Yes, that is true. However, most of his advice you'll find given from other
sports professional, like that guy who trained Lance.
It is very possible to understand the science but yet not be in a position
to maintain good health. Also, do you know that Burke was actually in bad
health before he dropped dead?
|
| | | | |
Date: 05 Jul 2007 10:14:04
From: RonSonic
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
|
On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:05:20 -0400, "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Peter Cole wrote:
>:: ron.r.george@gmail.com wrote:
>::: Carb
>::: loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
>::: "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
>:::
>::
>:: Yeah, he was the guy who wrote about cardio fitness & dropped dead
>:: from a heart attack. No thanks.
>
>Yes, that is true. However, most of his advice you'll find given from other
>sports professional, like that guy who trained Lance.
>
>It is very possible to understand the science but yet not be in a position
>to maintain good health.
Keith Richards has survived Jim Fixx by a couple decades now. Fitness experts
are full of dangerous advice.
Ron
Ron
Effect pedal demo's up at http://www.soundclick.com/ronsonicpedalry
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Date: 05 Jul 2007 20:07:10
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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Per RonSonic:
>Keith Richards has survived Jim Fixx by a couple decades now. Fitness experts
>are full of dangerous advice.
But didn't Jim Fixx have familial hypercholesterolemia?
If so, one could say he was basically doomed no matter what he
did pre-statins and his death was moot to his advice/example.
OTOH, I'd have to see the results of a few before-and-after IQ
tests to judge whether Kieth Richards dodged his particular hail
of bullets.
--
PeteCresswell
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 07:20:24
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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"Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:138klt4nths196f@news.supernews.com...
> Peter Cole wrote:
> :: ron.r.george@gmail.com wrote:
> ::: Carb
> ::: loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
> ::: "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
> :::
> ::
> :: Yeah, he was the guy who wrote about cardio fitness & dropped dead
> :: from a heart attack. No thanks.
>
> Yes, that is true. However, most of his advice you'll find given from
> other sports professional, like that guy who trained Lance.
>
> It is very possible to understand the science but yet not be in a position
> to maintain good health. Also, do you know that Burke was actually in bad
> health before he dropped dead?
A lot has to do with hereditary and family health history.
I was watching our local news last night, a couple just celebrated their
70th wedding anniversary. They got married in 1937. He was 95, and
his wife was 90. They were both energetic and healthy and still in love.
He still works his garden, and she still cooks and cleans everyday.
I enjoyed watching, it was a pretty neat segment. Something different
for a change on the news.
-tom
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Date: 03 Jul 2007 17:47:30
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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>> :: ron.r.george@gmail.com wrote:
>> ::: Carb
>> ::: loading is backed by research, if you don't believe please refer to
>> ::: "High Tech Cycling" by Ed Burke. Thanks.
>> Peter Cole wrote:
>> :: Yeah, he was the guy who wrote about cardio fitness & dropped dead
>> :: from a heart attack. No thanks.
> "Roger Zoul" <rogerzoul2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, that is true. However, most of his advice you'll find given from
>> other sports professional, like that guy who trained Lance.
>> It is very possible to understand the science but yet not be in a position
>> to maintain good health. Also, do you know that Burke was actually in bad
>> health before he dropped dead?
Tom Nakashima wrote:
> A lot has to do with hereditary and family health history.
> I was watching our local news last night, a couple just celebrated their
> 70th wedding anniversary. They got married in 1937. He was 95, and
> his wife was 90. They were both energetic and healthy and still in love.
> He still works his garden, and she still cooks and cleans everyday.
> I enjoyed watching, it was a pretty neat segment. Something different
> for a change on the news.
Yeah, I saw an NHK interview when in Japan of the then oldest man (112).
He said he ate rice with tea in the morning, rice tea and a piece of
fish for dinner, then one small sake and a cigarette.
The problem with statistical outliers is that people tend to attach
overly much importance to the details.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 17:06:28
From: sally
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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Colin Campbell <cmcampb@adelphia.net > wrote in news:46890bb9$0$4672
$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
If you want to improve your fitness, you need to push harder on your training
rides. Push your HR into the anerobic zone for at least 20-30 minutes, once
or twice a week. Slow rides help you to maintain your fitness level, but
only the harder ones will really help you improve.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 13:02:56
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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Colin Campbell wrote:
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph). when
> the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I did.
> I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
In my experience, endurance is a rather separate capacity that has to be
developed. To be able to ride long you have to ride long.
I remember one 250K ride, watching a local college racing team go out
fast at the 7 AM start. Around noon I started passing them, they all
seemed to be suffering badly despite their obvious fitness and 30+ year
younger legs. I have likewise been similarly humbled by riders older
than myself. It's just a matter of racking up the miles. There are no
magic foods, drinks or pills.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 10:07:07
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:4e-dnb0oYIRcshTbnZ2dnUVZ_tCtnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Colin Campbell wrote:
>>
>> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> In my experience, endurance is a rather separate capacity that has to be
> developed. To be able to ride long you have to ride long.
>
Agree, ride long and pace yourself.
-tom
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 09:29:58
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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On Jul 2, 8:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> did. I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
Two things: nutrition while riding and proper fitness ofr the task at
hand. Don't know how your condition is, so here it goes for both:
Nutrition: You should try to eat aobut 25 to 40 grams of carb every 45
minutes to an hour, to keep your glycogen stoarage full. I usually eat
a granola bar or a fruit bar and drink a bottle of gatorade every hour
or so. With that, I can maintain my energy output for pretty much as
long as I need. This is in terms of energy consumption. Eating and
drinking every 45 minutes to an hour during the ride is more important
that whatever you do the nite before. Target has these great fruit
bars that have 32 grams of carb and go down really easy. Otherwise,
get trail mix bars that usually have about 25 grams of carb.
Fitness: If your ratio of strenght to endurace is good, all you need
to do is eat properly during the ride. Otherwise, at some point you
will experience muscle fatigue from accumulation of lactic acid. To
improve you power on long rides, you need to do some trainning to be
able to sustain an intense effort for a while. You can achieve this by
adding some interval training to your workouts. You can already ride
94 miles, which indicates that your endurance is good. Now you need to
improve your ability to get rid of lactic acid at higher intensity.
You can do this by finding a stretch of road, preferably a hill, and
doing some hard efforts with recovery in between. A hill that will
take you about ten minutes is a good idea. Do an effort that will
leave you pretty wasted but will allow you to do the entire hill at a
sustained pace. Recover for about five minutes, and do it again. Do it
four to five times once a week. After a while you will be able to keep
up with the stroger guys no problem. provided that you eat properly
while you ride.
Hope that this helps,
Andres
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 09:18:46
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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On Jul 2, 10:48 am, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > are faster than I.
>
> > On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> > to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> > But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> > at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> > The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> > civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> > when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> > did. I'm used to that.
>
> > What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
> 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable gear
> range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
> shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
> 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
> days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
> about 200-300 grams of carbs.
> 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
> as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a heart
> rate monitor.
> 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be patient
> and keep doing what you love doing.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
your carbo loading recommendation is just pure nonesense, in my
opinion. you are talking of only a 100mi ride, 6 hrs or so at a steady
pace. all that food in the gut will serioursly hamper his ride and
make it extremely uncomfortable. a simple breakfast cereal and milk
will do. a long ride is best done with little or no food in the gut
and can be done using gatorade or similar and plenty of water. an
empty gut absorbs liquid a lot quicker and easier. it's much better on
a hot day generally. 6 hours no solid food is easy- not a big deal at
all. he's not a starving famine victim from a 3rd world country- there
should be enough fat on him to go for weeks. alcohol impares the
body's ability to metabolize body fat so that should be cut out
entirely. his pace should stay below the anaerobic zone. riding at a
steady pace with only minimal stops when necessary. at 65k regularily
he should be able to go up to 100k once in awhile and that experience
should allow 160kms achieveable. what he needs is to get his body and
mind used to going a bit further than he does now- once he's doing
that 65kms will seem like a ride around the block- too short in fact.
I speak from plenty of experience.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 17:29:46
From: Roger Zoul
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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raamman@gmail.com wrote:
:: On Jul 2, 10:48 am, ron.r.geo...@gmail.com wrote:
::: On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
:::
:::
:::
:::
:::
:::: I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and
:::: yesterday, a 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger
:::: folks, most of whom are faster than I.
:::
:::: On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride
:::: being around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride
:::: during the week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I
:::: know I tend not to push too hard when I'm alone.
:::
:::: But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before
:::: the end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate
:::: breakfast, ate a banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on
:::: dried apricots and almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75
:::: km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade at 114 km, and drank a good deal of
:::: water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
:::
:::: The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
:::: seemed civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 -
:::: 19 mph). when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow
:::: down much, but I did. I'm used to that.
:::
:::: What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
:::
::: 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
::: drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
::: 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable
::: gear range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
::: shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
::: 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
::: days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
::: about 200-300 grams of carbs.
::: 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
::: as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a
::: heart rate monitor.
::: 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be
::: patient and keep doing what you love doing.- Hide quoted text -
:::
::: - Show quoted text -
::
:: your carbo loading recommendation is just pure nonesense, in my
:: opinion. you are talking of only a 100mi ride, 6 hrs or so at a
:: steady pace. all that food in the gut will serioursly hamper his
:: ride and make it extremely uncomfortable. a simple breakfast cereal
:: and milk will do. a long ride is best done with little or no food in
:: the gut and can be done using gatorade or similar and plenty of
:: water. an empty gut absorbs liquid a lot quicker and easier. it's
:: much better on a hot day generally. 6 hours no solid food is easy-
:: not a big deal at all. he's not a starving famine victim from a 3rd
:: world country- there should be enough fat on him to go for weeks.
:: alcohol impares the body's ability to metabolize body fat so that
:: should be cut out entirely. his pace should stay below the anaerobic
:: zone. riding at a steady pace with only minimal stops when
:: necessary. at 65k regularily he should be able to go up to 100k once
:: in awhile and that experience should allow 160kms achieveable. what
:: he needs is to get his body and mind used to going a bit further
:: than he does now- once he's doing that 65kms will seem like a ride
:: around the block- too short in fact. I speak from plenty of
:: experience.
It depends. If you weigh 135 lbs that may be so. If you weigh 230lbs that
may not be so.
If you ride hills at a fast pace to elevate the heart rate, it wont' be so.
It also depends on what one has been eating prior to the ride and what kind
of activity one has been engaged in. The body will only go to fat stores to
supply moderate energy needs (low to mid range HR). If you push up HR, then
gylcogen fuel is needed to a greater degree than otherwise.
So, while you speak from experience, you are but one person. I do agree
that it isn't good to ride with a full gut, though. No question about that.
But carb loading doesn't imply riding on a full belly.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 07:48:50
From:
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net > wrote:
> I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> are faster than I.
>
> On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend not
> to push too hard when I'm alone.
>
> But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz Gatorade
> at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz bottles).
>
> The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it seemed
> civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> did. I'm used to that.
>
> What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable gear
range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
about 200-300 grams of carbs.
4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a heart
rate monitor.
5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be patient
and keep doing what you love doing.
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Date: 02 Jul 2007 08:53:30
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: Endurance on long rides?
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<ron.r.george@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1183387730.384880.23010@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 10:29 am, Colin Campbell <cmca...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > I've recently done a 70 mile (115 km) organized ride, and yesterday, a
> > 92 mile (149 km) ride. I was riding with younger folks, most of whom
> > are faster than I.
> >
> > On the other hand, I ride nearly every day, with a typical ride being
> > around 40 miles (65 km). I also do at least one hilly ride during the
> > week. The majority of these rides are done solo, and I know I tend
not
> > to push too hard when I'm alone.
> >
> > But on both of the long rides, I have gotten pretty tired before the
> > end, getting dropped by the group. Yesterday, I ate breakfast, ate a
> > banana early (around the 26 km mark), munched on dried apricots and
> > almonds, had a breakfast burrito at about 75 km, downed a 32 oz
Gatorade
> > at 114 km, and drank a good deal of water (probably four 20 oz
bottles).
> >
> > The group tended to ride at a pretty civilized pace - at least it
seemed
> > civil on the flats and downhills, around 29 - 30 kph (18 - 19 mph).
> > when the road went up, these kids didn't seem to slow down much, but I
> > did. I'm used to that.
> >
> > What can I do to help my legs endure longer?
>
> 1. Ride with groups more often so you know how to take advantage of
> drafting to save energy. It saves as much as 20-30%.
> 2. Practice riding on hills more and get to know your comfortable gear
> range, and pace. When you start to slow down on hills, practice
> shifting to a bigger gear and standing to build strength.
> 3. Fueling up plenty is a good idea before a long ride. Carb load 3
> days prior to a big event, and 3-4 hours before a long ride, ingest
> about 200-300 grams of carbs.
> 4. I believe you don't race. Just enjoy cycling in general, and ride
> as much as you can. If you want to go the scientific way, use a heart
> rate monitor.
> 5. Your performance will take time to develop. Its wise to be patient
> and keep doing what you love doing.
>
Maybe things have changed but I was always taught that during cycling fat
should be avoided and carbs should be consumed instead for a quick energy
boost.
A lot of "energy" bars contain high amounts of peanut butter and other
fatty ingredients.
The OP mentioned that he ate several high fat items during his ride: dried
almonds and a breakfast burrito. These things take energy and time to
digest.
He should probably be eating high carb low fat foods during the ride. Also
he should be drinking electrolyte replacements earlier in the ride not
when he starts feeling the bonk.
The electrolyte replacement should contain calcium and magnesium compounds
as well as sodium and potassium.
Chas.
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