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Main
Date: 16 Jun 2007 03:27:35
From: arnthorla
Subject: Favorite WheelSets
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I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
what wheel set to buy.
What would be your chose for:
a) Training
b) Racing
( c) TT )
I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
rolling resistance is suspect.
Thanks!
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 15:46:21
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 19, 6:27 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:12:37 -0700, "andresm...@aol.com"
>
> <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> >They ride proportionally as
> >fast as the previous weekend.
>
> I'm amazed you feel you can see speed. Or do you have some more
> precise source of info?
>
Well, no, it is an approximation. I use myself and othe cyclists as a
gauge. I ride within a performance range based on my abilities. I know
the people in my group that ride faster, that ride slower and that
ride about the same. Some get drop on the hills, some drop everyone
else, some take longer pulls, some suck more wheel, etc. I am sure
that you know the capabilities of your riding partners pretty well
from riding with them regularly.
If, the guy who gets dropped and is always in the back on every ride,
shows up with a new bike and starts taking all the pulls and drops
everyone on the next hill, and the only variable is the new bike, then
I would pay homage to the equipment.
OTOH, if the person invests a gazillion dolars in the newst gadget and
cannot ride any faster, then I will assume that the equipment does not
offer a really performance advantage.
Now, there are subtle advantages, like a few seconds in a TT or more
confort over the long run which may result in less muscle fatigue,
less calories burned, etc. However, if the performance of a person
within a group doesn't increase or decrease notizably by the
equipment, I would make the unprecise hypothesis that within a range,
equipment does not improve performance in a significant way.
Andres
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 19:26:21
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:46:21 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
>
>Now, there are subtle advantages, like a few seconds in a TT or more
>confort over the long run which may result in less muscle fatigue,
>less calories burned, etc. However, if the performance of a person
>within a group doesn't increase or decrease notizably by the
>equipment, I would make the unprecise hypothesis that within a range,
>equipment does not improve performance in a significant way.
A hypothesis like that can be very wrong. Here's the thing -- there
are so many factors involved in the speed on the bike in a group
situtation. To see if something makes the rider faster, it has to be
tested in isolation. And there are things that have been tested in
isolation, like the effect of weight and aerodynamics. The effects
will be small, but real. And just because someone else is going
better or worse on any given day, it still means that part would
enable the rider to go a little faster than they would w/o it.
--
JT
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 09:08:35
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 19, 1:57 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
> would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
> you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
> probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
> from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
> ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
> you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
> money."
That's a pretty good way to put it. Sometimes it is difficult to find
out what a person really *wants* (they often aren't sure themselves),
and it is also difficult not to influence them with my own prejudices.
But in the end you want them to be happy with whatever they get, so it
is worth the trouble to ask them a lot of questions and let them take
their time. It isn't unusual for someone to say that they want their
new wheels to last "forever"... but they also want aluminum clinchers
that weigh under 1400g. Invariably, the 1400g is more important to
them than longevity... even if you tell them exactly how much faster
they will be able to climb by saving 200g.
BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 19:20:43
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:08:35 -0700, Ron Ruff <rruffrruff@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>Sometimes it is difficult to find
>out what a person really *wants* (they often aren't sure themselves),
>and it is also difficult not to influence them with my own prejudices.
>But in the end you want them to be happy with whatever they get, so it
>is worth the trouble to ask them a lot of questions and let them take
>their time. It isn't unusual for someone to say that they want their
>new wheels to last "forever"... but they also want aluminum clinchers
>that weigh under 1400g. Invariably, the 1400g is more important to
>them than longevity... even if you tell them exactly how much faster
>they will be able to climb by saving 200g.
>
>BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
>Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.
That's more than I'd thought -- cool.
--
JT
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 20:37:58
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:20:43 -0400, John Forrest Tomlinson
<usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote:
>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:08:35 -0700, Ron Ruff <rruffrruff@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>
>>BTW, the 404s would probably be ~2% faster than the 28/32 round spoke
>>Deep Vs, or ~1 minute per hour.
>
>That's more than I'd thought -- cool.
Excuse me, I meant thanks for the info, but it's a little disturbing
to hear the difference is that much.
--
JT
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 05:12:37
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 19, 1:57 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:40:49 -0700, "andresm...@aol.com"
>
> <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> >I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
> >that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
> >I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.
>
> That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
> would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
> you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
> probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
> from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
> ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
> you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
> money."
>
> Inform her on the reality and let her see the tradeoffs.
>
> Not the anti-trick end BS (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is BS)
> you've laid out.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
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> ****************************
I never laid pro or anti-trick BS. A friend of mine asked me about
buying some new wheels for herself. I suggested that she talked to
Peter at Vecchios. She ended up talking to Sean and got the velocities
w record hubs. I thought that this was a good set of wheels. It turned
out she wanted something that looked flashier like 440s. I wouldn't
have recommended that, but I never told her anything.
As I said, maybe she would have been happier with 440s. It has become
obvious to me that equipment that looks flashier and "faster" does, in
fact, make people feel that they are much faster. I ride with them one
weekend and they are riding a certain component, frame, etc. The next
weekend, they have a new ultra trick bike. They ride proportionally as
fast as the previous weekend. Yet, the feel that the bike performs so
much faster. So, I feel happy for them and do not say anything. I am
happy with their acquisition and let them live happily. I just
wouldn't necessary recommend that they acquire whet they did. That's
it.
On ocassion, their trades really hurt me. A while back there was a
fellow cyclist who would ride a really nice lugged Serotta frame.
Eventually he traded it in for a lightspeed with curved seatstays.
That hurt my personal aesthetic sense. I really liked the Serotta, but
that's me.
On the other hand, I am really happy for the bike shops. They are
doing very well, They are growing, making more money, and there are
more bike shops in the city than ever. In the late 90s, the few bike
shops were all but dying and rode biking was all but disappearing.
Andres
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 08:27:01
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 05:12:37 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
>They ride proportionally as
>fast as the previous weekend.
I'm amazed you feel you can see speed. Or do you have some more
precise source of info?
--
JT
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 03:50:43
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 19, 2:51 am, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:27:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
> >fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
> >a moderate downhill.
>
> I'll ask again, would you use those tires in a competitive event, such
> as a road race or triathlon, on normal roads, assuming you had vast
> funds to ride whatever is available?
If (big if) they allowed me to ride said bicycle in a road race, I
would use the 35-305 Primo Comet tire on the front.
If I were riding a bicycle in a race with ISO 571-mm or ISO 622-mm
wheels, I would choose a 23-mm wide tire, as testing appears to
indicate the aerodynamic gain from narrower tires is outweighed by
increased rolling resistance (at normal inflation pressures), unless
it was a very smooth surface such as a velodrome that allowed for very
high inflation pressures.
If I were to enter an event on an upright with small wheels (e.g. Bike
Friday), I would use a 28-mm wide tire.
> If you want to say "I'll never participate in such an event" that's a
> valid answer.
I will do a triathlon when they eliminate the swimming and running
portions. ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 19:40:49
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 6:03 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:15:21 -0700, "andresm...@aol.com"
>
> <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I, of course, wouldn't
> >have recommended Zipps 440s but a lot of the pros ride them at
> >ironmans.
>
> Why not?
>
> --
> JT
> ****************************
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> Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************
I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.
I have decided that I won't give people advise on what to buy cycling
wise anymore. I'll refer them to the local bike shop. They are the
experts. I hope that the bike shop doesn't advise people in my
profession.
Andres
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 03:57:49
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:40:49 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
>I think that they are on the very expensive side and I don't think
>that she would notice a significant performance difference. But, maybe
>I am mistaken. She may do much better, and even be happier.
That's the thing. An honest, informed bit of advice to that person
would be "Those wheels will cost $1,200 more, and probably will make
you 15 or 30 seconds faster over an hour or two of racing. They're
probably a little less durable than the 28/32 Velocity alternative
from that shop, so you should reserve them for special events. If you
ride them all the time they might cause trouble. Is that worth it to
you? Perhaps there are other ways to get speed for the same or less
money."
Inform her on the reality and let her see the tradeoffs.
Not the anti-trick end BS (sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is BS)
you've laid out.
--
JT
****************************
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 19:27:11
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 9:06 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:21 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >> So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
> >> bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
> >> pair of Zipps?
>
> >> Bizarre.
>
> >If I had vast funds, I would be overcompensated relative to my
> >contribution to society.
>
> >Does Zipp make an ISO 305-mm rim that is wide enough for a 35-mm tire,
> >and can be spoked to a 36-hole, single-sided, Phil Wood disc brake
> >hub?
>
> >If I want to be more aerodynamic, I could just make some wheel covers.
> >With the small diameter wheels, crosswind effects would not be nearly
> >the issue as they would be on ISO 571-mm and ISO 622-mm wheels.
>
> You'd use those tires in a competive event -- like a triathlon or bike
> race - on normal roads?
The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
a moderate downhill. For all-around use, the 53-305 Schwalbe City Jet
is a good tire, while the 53-305 Maxxis Hookworm would be the choice
for greatest damage/puncture resistance and durability.
As a general rule, smaller diameter wheels require wider tires.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 03:51:57
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 19:27:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>The fast tire is the 35-305 Primo Comet, which is about as narrow and
>fragile a tire I would put on a bike that will easily exceed 40-mph on
>a moderate downhill.
I'll ask again, would you use those tires in a competitive event, such
as a road race or triathlon, on normal roads, assuming you had vast
funds to ride whatever is available?
If you want to say "I'll never participate in such an event" that's a
valid answer.
--
JT
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 18:32:21
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 8:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:56:14 -0700, Johnny Sunset wrote:
> >On Jun 18, 7:44 am, Andres Muro wrote:
> >> Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> >> triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> >> bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> >> for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> >> a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> >> spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> >> talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> >> weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> >> it.
>
> >> A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> >> them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> >> they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> >> she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> >> told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> >> on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> >> she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> >> friend....
>
> >Your friend is silly, and overpaid if she can throw money around like
> >that.
>
> >The last bike I bought has disc brakes and 36-spoke, small diameter
> >wheels. Barring an accident, I expect that the wheels will last for
> >the rest of my life with minimal attention.
>
> So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
> bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
> pair of Zipps?
>
> Bizarre.
If I had vast funds, I would be overcompensated relative to my
contribution to society.
Does Zipp make an ISO 305-mm rim that is wide enough for a 35-mm tire,
and can be spoked to a 36-hole, single-sided, Phil Wood disc brake
hub?
If I want to be more aerodynamic, I could just make some wheel covers.
With the small diameter wheels, crosswind effects would not be nearly
the issue as they would be on ISO 571-mm and ISO 622-mm wheels.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 22:06:37
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 18:32:21 -0700, Johnny Sunset
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>> So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
>> bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
>> pair of Zipps?
>>
>> Bizarre.
>
>If I had vast funds, I would be overcompensated relative to my
>contribution to society.
>
>Does Zipp make an ISO 305-mm rim that is wide enough for a 35-mm tire,
>and can be spoked to a 36-hole, single-sided, Phil Wood disc brake
>hub?
>
>If I want to be more aerodynamic, I could just make some wheel covers.
>With the small diameter wheels, crosswind effects would not be nearly
>the issue as they would be on ISO 571-mm and ISO 622-mm wheels.
You'd use those tires in a competive event -- like a triathlon or bike
race - on normal roads?
--
JT
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 17:56:14
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 7:44 am, Andres Muro wrote:
> Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> it.
>
> A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> friend....
Your friend is silly, and overpaid if she can throw money around like
that.
The last bike I bought has disc brakes and 36-spoke, small diameter
wheels. Barring an accident, I expect that the wheels will last for
the rest of my life with minimal attention.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 21:24:05
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 17:56:14 -0700, Johnny Sunset
<sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote:
>On Jun 18, 7:44 am, Andres Muro wrote:
>> Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
>> triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
>> bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
>> for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
>> a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
>> spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
>> talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
>> weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
>> it.
>>
>> A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
>> them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
>> they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
>> she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
>> told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
>> on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
>> she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
>> friend....
>
>Your friend is silly, and overpaid if she can throw money around like
>that.
>
>The last bike I bought has disc brakes and 36-spoke, small diameter
>wheels. Barring an accident, I expect that the wheels will last for
>the rest of my life with minimal attention.
So if you had vast funds and were in a competitive endeavour on the
bike for which you cared about, you'd use those wheels instead of a
pair of Zipps?
Bizarre.
--
JT
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 14:22:15
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 4:04 pm, SocSecTrainWr...@earthlink.net wrote:
> On Jun 18, 1:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
> > powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
> > and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
> > ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
> > responsive, etc.
>
> What also happens is that people ride the same bicycle for thousands
> of miles, and then get on it after changing something as significant
> as wheels and they do feel the difference.
Of course, it would be interesting if the rider were told the wheels
were lighter, 'faster', etc., when , in fact, they were functionally
identical to the originals.
Or, to swap out the existing wheels for lighter, 'faster' wheels
without telling the rider......and see if they notice.
The placebo effect is quite powerful, that much is well proven.
>I guess some people ride
> without any insight into their athletic performance, but for I think
> that most people who are trying to improve their riding are observant
> enough to notice quite small changes. I don't think it is fair to
> write it off as merely psychological.
>
> A change that you might not notice in brief before and after rides
> could easily be noticeable to someone who has put many miles on the
> bike.
>
> I am not arguing in favor of boutique wheels, I am arguing that people
> can benefit by upgrading their equipment. Somehow these discussions
> always seem to reach the point where everything is black or white,
> when the good advice requires analyzing shades of gray. One of the
> differences between Zipp and Velocity rims at a similar rim depth is
> somewhere around 250g. per wheel. Maybe the Zipps are not as reliable
> and they certainly cost many times more, but the wieght difference is
> not insignificant, and a person who wants Zipp rims instead of
> Velocity is making a tradeoff, not a necessarily bad decision.
>
> I ride retro tubular rims myself, BTW.
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:13:24
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:22:15 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>On Jun 18, 4:04 pm, SocSecTrainWr...@earthlink.net wrote:
>> On Jun 18, 1:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
>> > powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
>> > and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
>> > ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
>> > responsive, etc.
>>
>> What also happens is that people ride the same bicycle for thousands
>> of miles, and then get on it after changing something as significant
>> as wheels and they do feel the difference.
>
>Of course, it would be interesting if the rider were told the wheels
>were lighter, 'faster', etc., when , in fact, they were functionally
>identical to the originals.
There are ways to calculate the differences. I can't tell from "feel"
that my Zipps are faster than other stuff. I doubt anyone can. But it
has been measured.
So even if riders are wrong in imagining they can feel the difference
between equipment they believe is faster, if the equipment is faster,
it's faster!
--
JT
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Date: 18 Jun 2007 14:04:20
From:
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 1:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
> powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
> and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
> ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
> responsive, etc.
What also happens is that people ride the same bicycle for thousands
of miles, and then get on it after changing something as significant
as wheels and they do feel the difference. I guess some people ride
without any insight into their athletic performance, but for I think
that most people who are trying to improve their riding are observant
enough to notice quite small changes. I don't think it is fair to
write it off as merely psychological.
A change that you might not notice in brief before and after rides
could easily be noticeable to someone who has put many miles on the
bike.
I am not arguing in favor of boutique wheels, I am arguing that people
can benefit by upgrading their equipment. Somehow these discussions
always seem to reach the point where everything is black or white,
when the good advice requires analyzing shades of gray. One of the
differences between Zipp and Velocity rims at a similar rim depth is
somewhere around 250g. per wheel. Maybe the Zipps are not as reliable
and they certainly cost many times more, but the wieght difference is
not insignificant, and a person who wants Zipp rims instead of
Velocity is making a tradeoff, not a necessarily bad decision.
I ride retro tubular rims myself, BTW.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:11:27
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:04:20 -0700, SocSecTrainWreck@earthlink.net
wrote:
>One of the
>differences between Zipp and Velocity rims at a similar rim depth is
>somewhere around 250g. per wheel. Maybe the Zipps are not as reliable
>and they certainly cost many times more, but the wieght difference is
>not insignificant, and a person who wants Zipp rims instead of
>Velocity is making a tradeoff, not a necessarily bad decision.
Well said.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:58:54
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 3:35 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 12:49 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 12:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 18, 7:19 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jun 18, 7:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> > > > > triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for=
her
> > > > > bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the w=
eb
> > > > > for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for q=
uite
> > > > > a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasona=
ble
> > > > > spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> > > > > talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> > > > > weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went f=
or
> > > > > it.
>
> > > > > A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her abo=
ut
> > > > > them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said=
that
> > > > > they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bik=
e and
> > > > > she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels.=
She
> > > > > told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was pla=
nning
> > > > > on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventual=
ly,
> > > > > she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> > > > > friend.
>
> > > > > My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> > > > > several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicy=
cles.
> > > > > She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> > > > > while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> > > > > friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> > > > > sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was =
tops
> > > > > with my friend.
>
> > > > > The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of own=
ing
> > > > > bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment =
to
> > > > > perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> > > > > parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> > > > > decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuri=
stic
> > > > > looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many lo=
ok at
> > > > > my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I mu=
st be
> > > > > very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that g=
et
> > > > > Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and =
how
> > > > > they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the whee=
ls.
> > > > > In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike =
shop
> > > > > salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are =
my
> > > > > friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> > > > > I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> > > > > between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I =
do
> > > > > like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and m=
ake
> > > > > you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> > > > > Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Sever=
al
> > > > > years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops whe=
re
> > > > > dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes bu=
ying
> > > > > bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> > > > > record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10=
to
> > > > > all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and peo=
ple
> > > > > are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater=
and
> > > > > the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increas=
ed.
> > > > > This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> > > > > 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> > > > > about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> > > > > Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> > > > > housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> > > > > telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cab=
le
> > > > > housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake=
and
> > > > > d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me a=
nd
> > > > > said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it =
were
> > > > > for me, he'd go broke.
>
> > > > > Andres
>
> > > > I don't think there are many here who object to "the cool factor", =
per
> > > > se. The problems arise, IMO, when *recreational cyclists* are sold
> > > > equipment which is ill-suited to their needs. These problems run t=
he
> > > > gamut from non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> > > > their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
> > > > (ouch!) to riders being sold equipment ranging from frames to bars =
to
> > > > wheels which is either has a (ignored) weight limit, is inherently
> > > > unreliable or has a more-or-less designed in short service life.
> > > > Uncomfortable bicycles and unreliable components do nothing to sust=
ain
> > > > interest in cycling. Bike makers, bike shops and the bike media need
> > > > to pay better attention to the needs of the customer if they want t=
his
> > > > "new bike boom" to last.
>
> > > I don't think that the local bike shops sell unreliable stuff based on
> > > people's expectations. People find the stuff reliable and fine for
> > > their expectations. If they get 10,000 miles out of a wheel, they feel
> > > that that was pretty good. So, once the wheels go bad, they get a new
> > > set of kysiriums which they will use for two years and feel that they
> > > are riding faster because of them.
>
> > The other side of this is a set of wheels in constant need of
> > tensioning/truing, spoke replacement, etc. So, the wheel has not
> > *failed* in the strictest sense, but it is a constant headache to the
> > user. I see this quite commonly with low spoke count wheels being sold
> > (either included as part of a new bike or sold as an "upgrade") to
> > people who don't have the skills to avoid common road hazards or are
> > too heavy for the the wheel sets or both.
>
> > There are other examples, such as stoooppid light seatposts, bars,
> > stems, etc., that can, and occasionally do, fail. Again, I'm talking
> > about recreational riders, not racers. You seem to be talking about
> > long time, committed, competitive cyclists. Big diff, IMO.
>
> > The main point is that fussy, constantly-in-need-of-fixing bicycles
> > will not keep a newcomer (or a 'returning' cyclist) interested in
> > cycling. So this "new bike boom" will collapse unless those in the
> > bike biz act more responsibly
>
> > > What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
> > > powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
> > > and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
> > > ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
> > > responsive, etc.
>
> > There's no point in denying the placebo effect....it IS very real!
>
> > > Saturdy I was talking to a friend that rides a treck oclv that she's
> > > had for a few years. The bike looks pretty well kept. She told me that
> > > she wanted to upgrade to a madone. I aked her why and she said that
> > > she wanted the flames. She also feels that it will perform better. Of
> > > course, once she gets it she will feel that she rides faster and
> > > better. The bike shop will subtly contribute to that idea, and that is
> > > great. They won't sell her anything unreliable they will make a buck,
> > > and she will be happy spending her disposable income on something
> > > healthy and fun.
>
> > > Thank god for her, if it were for me, my bike shop friends will be
> > > making $ selling inner tubes, and a pair of gloves every year.
>
> > > Andres- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> You know, I wish new components would have that placebo effect on me
> too. I feel just as slow with the latest component, as I feel with my
> slow heavy bike. Sometimes I wish that I could buy something that
> would make me feel faster. Otherwise, unless I train more and lose
> weight, I will continue to suck :-(
>
As some guy named Merckx usta say: "Ride lots!". ;-)
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:10:52
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:58:54 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>
>As some guy named Merckx usta say: "Ride lots!". ;-)
I see the smiley, but still it's so silly to use Eddy Mercx as any
sort of example on equipment. The guy used the trickest stuff he
could get his hands on that would barely survive his races, and he was
a total physiologial phenomenon.
If you want some example to learn from, pick some high acheiving racer
who won a lot on equipment marginally worse than his competitors.
Ideally someone not especially physically gifted.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 13:35:08
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 12:49 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 12:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 18, 7:19 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Jun 18, 7:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> > > > triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for h=
er
> > > > bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> > > > for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for qui=
te
> > > > a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> > > > spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> > > > talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> > > > weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> > > > it.
>
> > > > A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> > > > them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said t=
hat
> > > > they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike =
and
> > > > she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. S=
he
> > > > told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was plann=
ing
> > > > on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> > > > she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> > > > friend.
>
> > > > My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> > > > several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycl=
es.
> > > > She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> > > > while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> > > > friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> > > > sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was to=
ps
> > > > with my friend.
>
> > > > The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> > > > bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> > > > perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> > > > parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> > > > decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futurist=
ic
> > > > looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look=
at
> > > > my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must=
be
> > > > very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> > > > Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> > > > they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> > > > In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike sh=
op
> > > > salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> > > > friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> > > > I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> > > > between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> > > > like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> > > > you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> > > > Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> > > > years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> > > > dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buyi=
ng
> > > > bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> > > > record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> > > > all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> > > > are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater a=
nd
> > > > the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> > > > This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> > > > 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> > > > about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> > > > Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> > > > housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> > > > telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> > > > housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake a=
nd
> > > > d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> > > > said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it we=
re
> > > > for me, he'd go broke.
>
> > > > Andres
>
> > > I don't think there are many here who object to "the cool factor", per
> > > se. The problems arise, IMO, when *recreational cyclists* are sold
> > > equipment which is ill-suited to their needs. These problems run the
> > > gamut from non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> > > their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
> > > (ouch!) to riders being sold equipment ranging from frames to bars to
> > > wheels which is either has a (ignored) weight limit, is inherently
> > > unreliable or has a more-or-less designed in short service life.
> > > Uncomfortable bicycles and unreliable components do nothing to sustain
> > > interest in cycling. Bike makers, bike shops and the bike media need
> > > to pay better attention to the needs of the customer if they want this
> > > "new bike boom" to last.
>
> > I don't think that the local bike shops sell unreliable stuff based on
> > people's expectations. People find the stuff reliable and fine for
> > their expectations. If they get 10,000 miles out of a wheel, they feel
> > that that was pretty good. So, once the wheels go bad, they get a new
> > set of kysiriums which they will use for two years and feel that they
> > are riding faster because of them.
>
> The other side of this is a set of wheels in constant need of
> tensioning/truing, spoke replacement, etc. So, the wheel has not
> *failed* in the strictest sense, but it is a constant headache to the
> user. I see this quite commonly with low spoke count wheels being sold
> (either included as part of a new bike or sold as an "upgrade") to
> people who don't have the skills to avoid common road hazards or are
> too heavy for the the wheel sets or both.
>
> There are other examples, such as stoooppid light seatposts, bars,
> stems, etc., that can, and occasionally do, fail. Again, I'm talking
> about recreational riders, not racers. You seem to be talking about
> long time, committed, competitive cyclists. Big diff, IMO.
>
> The main point is that fussy, constantly-in-need-of-fixing bicycles
> will not keep a newcomer (or a 'returning' cyclist) interested in
> cycling. So this "new bike boom" will collapse unless those in the
> bike biz act more responsibly
>
>
>
> > What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
> > powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
> > and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
> > ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
> > responsive, etc.
>
> There's no point in denying the placebo effect....it IS very real!
>
> > Saturdy I was talking to a friend that rides a treck oclv that she's
> > had for a few years. The bike looks pretty well kept. She told me that
> > she wanted to upgrade to a madone. I aked her why and she said that
> > she wanted the flames. She also feels that it will perform better. Of
> > course, once she gets it she will feel that she rides faster and
> > better. The bike shop will subtly contribute to that idea, and that is
> > great. They won't sell her anything unreliable they will make a buck,
> > and she will be happy spending her disposable income on something
> > healthy and fun.
>
> > Thank god for her, if it were for me, my bike shop friends will be
> > making $ selling inner tubes, and a pair of gloves every year.
>
> > Andres- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
You know, I wish new components would have that placebo effect on me
too. I feel just as slow with the latest component, as I feel with my
slow heavy bike. Sometimes I wish that I could buy something that
would make me feel faster. Otherwise, unless I train more and lose
weight, I will continue to suck :-(
Andres
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 11:49:58
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 12:32 pm, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 7:19 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 7:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> > > triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> > > bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> > > for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> > > a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> > > spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> > > talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> > > weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> > > it.
>
> > > A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> > > them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> > > they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> > > she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> > > told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> > > on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> > > she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> > > friend.
>
> > > My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> > > several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
> > > She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> > > while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> > > friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> > > sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
> > > with my friend.
>
> > > The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> > > bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> > > perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> > > parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> > > decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
> > > looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
> > > my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
> > > very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> > > Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> > > they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> > > In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
> > > salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> > > friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> > > I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> > > between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> > > like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> > > you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> > > Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> > > years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> > > dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
> > > bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> > > record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> > > all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> > > are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
> > > the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> > > This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> > > 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> > > about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> > > Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> > > housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> > > telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> > > housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
> > > d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> > > said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
> > > for me, he'd go broke.
>
> > > Andres
>
> > I don't think there are many here who object to "the cool factor", per
> > se. The problems arise, IMO, when *recreational cyclists* are sold
> > equipment which is ill-suited to their needs. These problems run the
> > gamut from non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> > their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
> > (ouch!) to riders being sold equipment ranging from frames to bars to
> > wheels which is either has a (ignored) weight limit, is inherently
> > unreliable or has a more-or-less designed in short service life.
> > Uncomfortable bicycles and unreliable components do nothing to sustain
> > interest in cycling. Bike makers, bike shops and the bike media need
> > to pay better attention to the needs of the customer if they want this
> > "new bike boom" to last.
>
> I don't think that the local bike shops sell unreliable stuff based on
> people's expectations. People find the stuff reliable and fine for
> their expectations. If they get 10,000 miles out of a wheel, they feel
> that that was pretty good. So, once the wheels go bad, they get a new
> set of kysiriums which they will use for two years and feel that they
> are riding faster because of them.
The other side of this is a set of wheels in constant need of
tensioning/truing, spoke replacement, etc. So, the wheel has not
*failed* in the strictest sense, but it is a constant headache to the
user. I see this quite commonly with low spoke count wheels being sold
(either included as part of a new bike or sold as an "upgrade") to
people who don't have the skills to avoid common road hazards or are
too heavy for the the wheel sets or both.
There are other examples, such as stoooppid light seatposts, bars,
stems, etc., that can, and occasionally do, fail. Again, I'm talking
about recreational riders, not racers. You seem to be talking about
long time, committed, competitive cyclists. Big diff, IMO.
The main point is that fussy, constantly-in-need-of-fixing bicycles
will not keep a newcomer (or a 'returning' cyclist) interested in
cycling. So this "new bike boom" will collapse unless those in the
bike biz act more responsibly
>
> What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
> powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
> and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
> ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
> responsive, etc.
>
There's no point in denying the placebo effect....it IS very real!
> Saturdy I was talking to a friend that rides a treck oclv that she's
> had for a few years. The bike looks pretty well kept. She told me that
> she wanted to upgrade to a madone. I aked her why and she said that
> she wanted the flames. She also feels that it will perform better. Of
> course, once she gets it she will feel that she rides faster and
> better. The bike shop will subtly contribute to that idea, and that is
> great. They won't sell her anything unreliable they will make a buck,
> and she will be happy spending her disposable income on something
> healthy and fun.
>
> Thank god for her, if it were for me, my bike shop friends will be
> making $ selling inner tubes, and a pair of gloves every year.
>
> Andres- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:08:05
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:49:58 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>The other side of this is a set of wheels in constant need of
>tensioning/truing, spoke replacement, etc.
My Zipp wheels have been pretty much the same in terms of requiring
truing as traditional wheels, with the exception of the badly designed
rear I mentioned in another post.
I don't get this stuff about them being fragile -- I haven't seen it.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 11:34:08
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 6:46 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> Reynolds? I have been trying to get them to make me
> 10-28h for 2 years..no soap.
You should try again. They recently started selling rims to custom
buiilders, and will do custom drillings as well.
Zipp has certainly had troubles in the past trying to make thinks on
the stupid side of light... but their new rims are a little heavier
and more durable. Other than the rims cracking, has Zipp been good at
taking care of problems on your end?
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:06:47
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:34:08 -0700, Ron Ruff <rruffrruff@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>On Jun 18, 6:46 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>> Reynolds? I have been trying to get them to make me
>> 10-28h for 2 years..no soap.
>
>You should try again. They recently started selling rims to custom
>buiilders, and will do custom drillings as well.
>
>Zipp has certainly had troubles in the past trying to make thinks on
>the stupid side of light... but their new rims are a little heavier
>and more durable. Other than the rims cracking, has Zipp been good at
>taking care of problems on your end?
I've probably been lucky, but have used four Zipp wheels road racing
w/o any problems with the rims, including going off road to avoid a
crash and hitting a rock so hard the back of my bike got up in the air
and the tire was shredded. No problems. But that's just me.
I *have* had problems with one of the rear wheels breaking spokes.
This was an early model and the spokes all came straight out of the
rim w/o anging to the side. Not good design and I don't use that wheel
anymore.
Oh, I remember a fifth Zipp I've used. A clincher. I hit a big hole
and the aluminum got a bit of a bulge. I've seen the same thing happen
to "traditional" rims.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 10:32:23
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 7:19 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 7:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> > triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> > bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> > for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> > a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> > spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> > talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> > weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> > it.
>
> > A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> > them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> > they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> > she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> > told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> > on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> > she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> > friend.
>
> > My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> > several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
> > She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> > while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> > friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> > sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
> > with my friend.
>
> > The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> > bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> > perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> > parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> > decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
> > looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
> > my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
> > very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> > Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> > they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> > In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
> > salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> > friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> > I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> > between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> > like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> > you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> > Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> > years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> > dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
> > bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> > record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> > all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> > are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
> > the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> > This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> > 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> > about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> > Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> > housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> > telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> > housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
> > d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> > said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
> > for me, he'd go broke.
>
> > Andres
>
> I don't think there are many here who object to "the cool factor", per
> se. The problems arise, IMO, when *recreational cyclists* are sold
> equipment which is ill-suited to their needs. These problems run the
> gamut from non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
> (ouch!) to riders being sold equipment ranging from frames to bars to
> wheels which is either has a (ignored) weight limit, is inherently
> unreliable or has a more-or-less designed in short service life.
> Uncomfortable bicycles and unreliable components do nothing to sustain
> interest in cycling. Bike makers, bike shops and the bike media need
> to pay better attention to the needs of the customer if they want this
> "new bike boom" to last.
I don't think that the local bike shops sell unreliable stuff based on
people's expectations. People find the stuff reliable and fine for
their expectations. If they get 10,000 miles out of a wheel, they feel
that that was pretty good. So, once the wheels go bad, they get a new
set of kysiriums which they will use for two years and feel that they
are riding faster because of them.
What seems to happen is that the psychological factor is incredibly
powerful. People trade equipment for much more expensive equipement
and they feel that they are riding faster and better. Of course they
ride the same to me, but they claim that their bikes are faster, more
responsive, etc.
Saturdy I was talking to a friend that rides a treck oclv that she's
had for a few years. The bike looks pretty well kept. She told me that
she wanted to upgrade to a madone. I aked her why and she said that
she wanted the flames. She also feels that it will perform better. Of
course, once she gets it she will feel that she rides faster and
better. The bike shop will subtly contribute to that idea, and that is
great. They won't sell her anything unreliable they will make a buck,
and she will be happy spending her disposable income on something
healthy and fun.
Thank god for her, if it were for me, my bike shop friends will be
making $ selling inner tubes, and a pair of gloves every year.
Andres
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 10:15:21
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
Actually, Sean did a very good job. He showed her the rims on line at
the velocity website and showed her the different rims, hubs etc. His
suggestions made perfect sense to me. When the wheels arrived and she
saw them she felt that they looked just like her old wheels. I really
don't know her older wheels looked like cause she was moving out of
town and she had her bike somewhere else.
I think that the wheels that Sean suggested where very good for my
friends needs. However, I guess that they lacked the cool factor.
Later she pointed to the wheels that another friend has, Zips 440s,
and she said that that was what she would like. I, of course, wouldn't
have recommended Zipps 440s but a lot of the pros ride them at
ironmans. But, hey, what do I know about fashion. Last year I had duct
tape on top of some of my handlebar tape and on a break lever cover
for about 6 months, and I had some handlebar tape dangling in the
wind. My friends say that when I ride people toss their change at me.
Andres
On Jun 18, 8:12 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Jun 18, 6:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> > triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> > bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> > for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> > a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> > spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> > talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> > weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> > it.
>
> > A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> > them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> > they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> > she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> > told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> > on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> > she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> > friend.
>
> Glad about that. Interesting since we have the hubs/rims/spokes and I
> am sure Sean showed her what the wheels would look like..but this
> story makes retail owners gray....
>
>
>
>
>
> > My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> > several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
> > She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> > while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> > friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> > sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
> > with my friend.
>
> > The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> > bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> > perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> > parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> > decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
> > looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
> > my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
> > very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> > Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> > they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> > In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
> > salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> > friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> > I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> > between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> > like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> > you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> > Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> > years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> > dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
> > bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> > record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> > all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> > are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
> > the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> > This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> > 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> > about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> > Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> > housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> > telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> > housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
> > d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> > said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
> > for me, he'd go broke.
>
> EXCEPT, when the bike shop sells this stuff, with some sort of promise
> on how well it will work..and it DOESN'T, the bike shop is going to
> spend more money to fix the proiblem of what they sold. Bike shops
> 'shouldn't' sell 'it' just cuz they can. They gotta stand behind this
> stuff and if it's rediculous stuff, they should stay away..unless they
> are MO and they budget the expected 20% return rate.
>
>
>
> > Andres
>
> > On Jun 16, 6:22 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> > > > what wheel set to buy.
>
> > > > What would be your chose for:
> > > > a) Training
> > > > b) Racing
> > > > ( c) TT )
>
> > > > I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> > > > going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the =
rim
> > > > is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> > > > wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using=
a
> > > > borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> > > > rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> > > > Thanks!
>
> > > Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
> > > some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
> > > wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
> > > friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
> > > build a superior set of wheels??
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:03:29
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:15:21 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
> I, of course, wouldn't
>have recommended Zipps 440s but a lot of the pros ride them at
>ironmans.
Why not?
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 08:08:17
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 9:22 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message denews:1182172751.668528.3510@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.co=
m,
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> a r=E9fl=E9chi, et=
puis a
> d=E9clar=E9 :
>
> > non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> > their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
>
> Two observations from this location -
>
> My racing bike has about 9-10 cm difference, and I don't find it
> uncomfortable at all.
Agreed. 9cm is the diff on my "fast" bike, I find it comfortable for
long rides and often use the deep drops (old Cinelli 66-44 bar). But,
not everyone is comfy laid out with a flat back and I count myself
lucky that I still do even as the years roll by.
>
> Several years ago, a lot of Asian produced bikes were brought to this
> market, with the forks cut low (just a 5mm spacer), and the bike shops
> everywhere sent them back, or demanded uncut forks in replacement.
>
> Are you stuck, in the USA, with pre-cut and short steerer tubes and at wh=
at
> level of bike does this occur ?
>
I don't know how the bikes come from the factory, but I do doubt that
the shops cut the steerer (path of least labor!). However, many of the
bikes I see do have the bars in the 4"/10cm below the saddle range,
with little facility to raise them save for a 'riser' stem. From the
complaints I hear, I doubt the riders asked for this.
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 07:12:13
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 6:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> it.
>
> A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> friend.
Glad about that. Interesting since we have the hubs/rims/spokes and I
am sure Sean showed her what the wheels would look like..but this
story makes retail owners gray....
>
> My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
> She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
> with my friend.
>
> The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
> looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
> my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
> very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
> salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
> bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
> the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
> d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
> for me, he'd go broke.
EXCEPT, when the bike shop sells this stuff, with some sort of promise
on how well it will work..and it DOESN'T, the bike shop is going to
spend more money to fix the proiblem of what they sold. Bike shops
'shouldn't' sell 'it' just cuz they can. They gotta stand behind this
stuff and if it's rediculous stuff, they should stay away..unless they
are MO and they budget the expected 20% return rate.
>
> Andres
>
> On Jun 16, 6:22 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> > > what wheel set to buy.
>
> > > What would be your chose for:
> > > a) Training
> > > b) Racing
> > > ( c) TT )
>
> > > I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> > > going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
> > > is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> > > wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
> > > borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> > > rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> > > Thanks!
>
> > Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
> > some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
> > wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
> > friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
> > build a superior set of wheels??
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 06:19:11
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 18, 7:44 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote:
> Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
> triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
> bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
> for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
> a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
> spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
> talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
> weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
> it.
>
> A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
> them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
> they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
> she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
> told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
> on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
> she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
> friend.
>
> My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
> several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
> She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
> while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
> friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
> sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
> with my friend.
>
> The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
> bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
> perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
> parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
> decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
> looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
> my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
> very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
> Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
> they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
> In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
> salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
> friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
>
> I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
> between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
> like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
> you feel that you are going really fast.
>
> Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
> years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
> dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
> bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
> record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
> all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
> are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
> the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
> This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
> 440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
> about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
>
> Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
> housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
> telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
> housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
> d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
> said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
> for me, he'd go broke.
>
> Andres
>
I don't think there are many here who object to "the cool factor", per
se. The problems arise, IMO, when *recreational cyclists* are sold
equipment which is ill-suited to their needs. These problems run the
gamut from non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
(ouch!) to riders being sold equipment ranging from frames to bars to
wheels which is either has a (ignored) weight limit, is inherently
unreliable or has a more-or-less designed in short service life.
Uncomfortable bicycles and unreliable components do nothing to sustain
interest in cycling. Bike makers, bike shops and the bike media need
to pay better attention to the needs of the customer if they want this
"new bike boom" to last.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 16:22:57
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
Dans le message de news:1182172751.668528.3510@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré :
> non-racers being sold racing bikes with overly-quick (for
> their riding style) handling and handlebars 4"+ below the saddle
Two observations from this location -
My racing bike has about 9-10 cm difference, and I don't find it
uncomfortable at all.
Several years ago, a lot of Asian produced bikes were brought to this
market, with the forks cut low (just a 5mm spacer), and the bike shops
everywhere sent them back, or demanded uncut forks in replacement.
Are you stuck, in the USA, with pre-cut and short steerer tubes and at what
level of bike does this occur ?
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 05:56:44
From:
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 17, 8:48 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu >
wrote:
> Sandy wrote:
> > It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
> > difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
> > the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
> > on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
> > easier to sustain with lighter equipment.
>
> There are some interesting assumptions in these figures. For one, a
> 12km climb at 12% is a huge climb, and if you are racing on such a
> course then you are probably riding what the team provides. For amateur
> racers, rising mostly crits, such a climb does not occur. Also, the
> assumption that the fancier wheels saves 500g is an interesting one.
> Very few wheels would (really) be 500g lighter than your basic 32-hole
> Open Pro rim and standard Shimano or Campy hub. They may claim to be
> lighter, but those claims are usually without skewers and are still shy
> of reality.
IT's easy to find 500 gram aero rims; what's hard to find are aero
rims less than 500 grams that are not CF. I am going to give my seat
of the pants impression based on my racing experience that the
difference between a pair of 500g. rims versus 300g. rims is huge,
even in a criterium because of it's constant accelerations.
Furthermore, even the most amateur of road races can have steep,
significant climbs on them, and the difference between losing contact
with the front doesn't need to be 100 meters, it can be five meters.
> > Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
> > environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
> > be racing.
>
> > Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
> > terrain of the course.
>
> And durability. An ultralight wheel is worthless if it can't be relied
> upon to make it to the finish line.
This seems like common sense but it's really a strawman. The reality
is that, for road racing, most people are not likely to encounter
wheels so light or roads so bad that the lightness of the wheel could
contribute to a DNF. Wheel build quality is many times more important.
The CW on this newsgroup wrt component weight can be boiled down to
this short statement: "Weight doesn't matter." It's wrong. If you're
racing, or if you just want to be as fast as you can be, weight _does_
matter. All weight.
And, I will add, I don't really agree with the concept of heavy wheels
for training. If you want to race fast, train fast, or to put it
another way, feeling sluggish while training is not conducive to
becoming fast. I do believe that your race wheels should not be used
for training, but I believe that the quatlity and weight of your
training wheels should approach that of your race wheels- maybe a step
below, but not "heavy".
.
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 05:46:51
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 17, 10:11 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jun 17, 6:39 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com> wrote:
>
> > hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
> > since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
> > set of carbon tubie racing wheels.
>
> ? Lots of loose rims, Peter. Zipp, Reynolds, Corima, X-Treme,
> Blackwell, and Nimble... to name a few. These can be custom built with
> whatever spokes and hubs you like... below 1000g tubies if you wish.
Zipp-nothanks...Reynolds? I have been trying to get them to make me
10-28h for 2 years..no soap. Corima, no thanks...Nimble-tried that one
as well..too many spokes pulling thru, like Zipp...Never heard of x-
treme or Blackwell..I'll look into those but Reynolds makes the best
rims..see comment above.
|
| |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 05:44:03
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
Here's a story that you all may like. I have a friend who is a
triathlete who told me that she wanted some fast light wheels for her
bike. I suggested Peter at Vecchios and found the number on the web
for her. We called and she talked to Sean (Peter's partner) for quite
a while. He suggested Veloce rims, with record hubs and a reasonable
spoke count. I believe that he suggested 28 32 three crossed. Sean
talked to her about reliability, durability, aerodynamics, light
weight, etc. They spend quite a while on the phone and she went for
it.
A few weeks later she got her custom wheels. When i asked her about
them she said that she didn't like them. I asked why and she said that
they looked almost the same as the wheels that she had on her bike and
she wanted something that looked different from her other wheels. She
told me that she wanted something that looked "cool". She was planning
on returning the wheels and ask for something different. Eventually,
she found a friend that wanted the wheels and sold them to her
friend.
My friend, while she is a very good triathlete and has competed in
several ironmans, halfs, and sprints doesn't know much about bicycles.
She has disposable income and she is into the cool factor. After a
while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
sold her would have been pretty much none. However, coolness was tops
with my friend.
The point of this is that coolness is an essential element of owning
bicycles. Just as it is important to ride and for your equipment to
perform well, it is also equally important to talk about it at the
parking lot before the start of a ride, race, etc. wheels with big
decals, weird spoke patterns, bikes with strange tubes and futuristic
looking handlebars are all very important to some people. many look at
my bike and wonder how i am able to keep up. They think that I must be
very strong because my bike looks so plain. I have friends that get
Kysirum wheels and tell me how much better those wheels feel and how
they are able to keep up or take longer pulls because of the wheels.
In the past, I would have tried to argue with them, but the bike shop
salesperson knows more than I do. Plus, the bike shop owners are my
friends and I don't want to stop a sale.
I envy people into the cool factor. I don't feel much difference
between wheels with same size tires and don't ride any faster. I do
like how trispokes sound though. the make the coolest sound and make
you feel that you are going really fast.
Ultimately, i think that coolness and looks are important. Several
years ago road biking was stagnant as a sport and local shops where
dying. Now, there are all these people with disposable incomes buying
bikes that look cool from the LBSs. They upgrade from record 9 to
record ten as soon as the new gruppo comes out and from record 10 to
all carbon to titanium carbon. bike shops are doing great and people
are happy. The number of people on weekend rides are much greater and
the number of cycling events, tours, races, tris, etc has increased.
This is all good and I celebrate the need for people to want Zipp
440s. I'll stick to my $100 wheel pair and enjoy hearing them talk
about the performance advantages of the latest equipment.
Recently one of my friends was riding with these bright gold cable
housing. He told me that he spent $200.00 on the new setup. I was
telling one of the LBS owners that I have a gazillion feet of cable
housing with teflon lining that I spent $15 for and lots of brake and
d=E9railleur cables that I've bought years ago. He looked at me and
said: "man, you are the anti-retail monster". He is right. If it were
for me, he'd go broke.
Andres
On Jun 16, 6:22 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> > what wheel set to buy.
>
> > What would be your chose for:
> > a) Training
> > b) Racing
> > ( c) TT )
>
> > I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> > going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
> > is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> > wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
> > borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> > rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
> some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
> wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
> friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
> build a superior set of wheels??
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 20:00:22
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:44:03 -0700, "andresmuro@aol.com"
<andresmuro@aol.com > wrote:
> After a
>while I figured that she wanted something like Zipp 440s. For my
>friend, the performance advantage of Zipps to the wheels that Sean
>sold her would have been pretty much none.
At speeds above 18 or 20mph you're mistaken.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 19:15:47
From: Mark
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 16, 7:58 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So frugal sprugal I need the good shit! ;)
>
> So what I meant I need two types of wheel sets.
At least. Evenif you don't race, if you ride a lot then it never hurts
to have extra wheels around. If you are racing you always want to have
extra wheels available. So once you have your fancy race wheels still
throw your others in the car "just in case".
> For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
> keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.
For training just get a basic wheelset and go ride. I favor 32 spoke
rims on decent hubs. Don't worry about weight and put enough spokes in
them so that if you break one you can finish the ride. Training is
about getting the training in not saving 50 grams of weight on your
bike.
IMO - If you are serious about training and riding faster then spend
your extra money on a power meter and not on bling wheels for grinding
out training miles.
Finally, I am a bit of a dinosaur in that I still train on old
fashioned wheels with lots of spokes and non-aero box rims. I'm 100%
certain that the folks who can drop me do so because they have bigger
motors and not fancier equipment.
> b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.
These are nice to have if you can afford it and there is a small
performance advantage. You can get Zipp, Corima, Reynolds and others
as loose rims or buy prebuilt if you like. The lower end HED wheels
look like a good value (Jets and Alpes) and Zipp has the Flashpoints.
Around here we see a lot of Zipp 303 and 404s of various builds. The
404 is pretty much the ubiquitous deep dish rim of choice. A
combination of good marketing and a reasonable product.
> I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
> But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
> better than it performs.
I have a set of 404 clinchers (32 spoke ft and rear, chourus front hub
and a powertap rear). The wife and I share this wheel set for racing
purposes. For us these are essentially bullet proof wheels. Aero but
not overly light due to the PT rear and the few extra spokes.
One could easily use these wheels as daily drivers but I prefer to
keep them for days when I want the slight performance edge and the
extra mental boost of knowing I'm on my "race" wheels. That said, if
you have the cash there is no reason not to use wheels like these as
daily use. I think it's a bit silly to train on these sorts of wheels
but if that floats your boat then happy sailing mate.
I agree with Ron that for your race wheels you have to decide clincher
vs tubbies. If you go with tubbies learn how to glue them properly and
enjoy the heck out of them.
YMMV
Mark
|
| |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 09:11:22
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 17, 6:39 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <p...@vecchios.com > wrote:
> hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
> since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
> set of carbon tubie racing wheels.
? Lots of loose rims, Peter. Zipp, Reynolds, Corima, X-Treme,
Blackwell, and Nimble... to name a few. These can be custom built with
whatever spokes and hubs you like... below 1000g tubies if you wish.
|
| |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 05:39:04
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 16, 5:58 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com > wrote:
> @ All
>
> Well I guess Im over and done with my frugal stage. I had a long one!
> ( And I guess Im rather on the frugal side of the spectrum, like most
> true cyclist ( that love cycling in a wider sense )). But things got
> out of hand, I guess, and now the most logical step has become to go
> into racing. ( I had always only aspired to do really long
> selfcontained touring. ) So frugal sprugal I need the good shit! ;)
>
> So what I ment I need two types of wheel sets. One for a) training
> and the other for b) general racing. When the time comes I will
> manage to gear up for TT.
>
> For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
> keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.
>
> For b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.
If $ is not an issue, have a good wheelbuilder make you a training
wheelset and for racing, spend the $, get a carbon, aero tubular
wheelset based around a good hubset, like DA or Campag or DT
hubs(Reynolds wheels)..something that a local wheelbuilder cannot do,
since there are no loose carbon rims out there, is build a 1100-1200g
set of carbon tubie racing wheels.
>
> The thing is I there are so many products out there ( and probaly the
> same amount of BS too ). So I was thinking, in most every field there
> tends to be a few things that stand out and most every one uses or
> have used. I was wondering I could get a picture of the most popular
> ( most poven products ). I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
> But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
> better than it performes.
>
> So over to you guys.
> Any ideas?
|
| |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 22:28:30
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 16, 5:58 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com > wrote:
> So frugal sprugal I need the good shit! ;)
Ah, well... that changes things. In that case go with good handbuilt
wheels all around... just because they can be better built than the
factory wheels, and they are more easily customized.
Too many options to list really, and specifics will depend on your
weight and riding style, but for training probably Ultegra or Dura Ace
hubs laced to sturdy rims like Velocity Fusions, Mavic CXP33... or
Deep Vs, DT 1.2s, etc... with double butted spokes and brass nipples.
These should last a long time, they are easily serviced, and parts can
be easily and inexpensively replaced.
For racing the Zipp rims consistently beat the competition in aero
testing, so it isn't just hype. There was a durability problem in the
past, especially with the 303s, but they have since beefed them up. If
you will only use these for racing I'd consider tubulars... much
lighter rim+tire, and if you get the best tires the rolling resistance
should be about as good as the best clinchers. So 303s or 404s laced
with CX-Rays or Aerolite spokes, to White Industries, Tune, or DT
hubs.
For time trials you will want a disk in the rear and an 808 rim in the
front... for most conditions anyway.
|
| |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 23:58:29
From: arnthorla
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
@ All
Well I guess Im over and done with my frugal stage. I had a long one!
( And I guess Im rather on the frugal side of the spectrum, like most
true cyclist ( that love cycling in a wider sense )). But things got
out of hand, I guess, and now the most logical step has become to go
into racing. ( I had always only aspired to do really long
selfcontained touring. ) So frugal sprugal I need the good shit! ;)
So what I ment I need two types of wheel sets. One for a) training
and the other for b) general racing. When the time comes I will
manage to gear up for TT.
For a) I was thinking of something that would just keep on rolling and
keep true for tens of thousands of Ks.
For b) I was thinking more aerowise, deep rims and such stuff.
The thing is I there are so many products out there ( and probaly the
same amount of BS too ). So I was thinking, in most every field there
tends to be a few things that stand out and most every one uses or
have used. I was wondering I could get a picture of the most popular
( most poven products ). I hear many speak of Zipp 404 like this.
But then you never know if it is just so darn snotty looking much
better than it performes.
So over to you guys.
Any ideas?
|
| |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 13:39:11
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 16, 9:54 am, "Sandy" <leu...@frree.fr > wrote:
> Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
> environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
> be racing.
I would say that for the vast majority of us, racing is about placing
as good as we can... only a small percentage of competitors have a
reasonable chance at winning. If spending $5,000 dollars on equipment
will only improve my placing from 53rd to 49th, then I'll pass.
|
| |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 08:11:34
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com > wrote:
> What would be your chose for:
> a) Training
> b) Racing
> ( c) TT )
If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
(a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them. These will be
your daily rider, training, riding in the rain, etc wheels. Your (b)
and (c) can be combined if you don't have a lot of money. These wheels
need not be very expensive, but it makes sense to look for good
aerodynamics. In the under $500 class the new Shimano wheels have
tested very well aero-wise. Above $500 you can do a little better
aerodynamically and save a lot of weight with handbuilts. Put the best
racing tires and latex tubes on these and ride them only when
competing... that way they will be fresh and stay in good condition.
IMO this is the most sensible and frugal approach, but if you'd like
to spend more money you certainly can. One thing to remember is that
your wheels aren't going to make a big difference in your
performance... unless you think a few of 10ths of a mph in a TT, or a
few 100ths of a mph on a climb are a lot.
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 21:25:15
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
> If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
> recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
> (a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
> something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
> would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
> as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
> built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them.
----------
I would 2nd this statement. My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
trust them, and they're usually too stiff. The open pro with a shimano hub,
32 spokes was the best solution for someone like me, who doesn't know or
want to think much about wheels. I'm sure there are many similar setups,
that may be better, but that one is an easy solution for someone who isn't a
wheel-head. I use wide tires, 25's and 28's, so that may explain their
longevity, but they've been the most durable wheels I've owned.
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 18:19:06
From: John Forrest Tomlinson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 21:25:15 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote:
> My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
>trust them,
Why did you ever get them if you don't trust them?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jun 2007 00:34:56
From: Callistus Valerius
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
>
> > My boutique wheels never get used, as I don't
> >trust them,
>
> Why did you ever get them if you don't trust them?
>
> --
-------------
One pair came with a new bike, the other pair I thought they would make me
faster, they didn't.
|
| | |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 17:54:38
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
Dans le message de news:1182006694.123543.40410@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com,
Ron Ruff <rruffrruff@yahoo.com > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> What would be your chose for:
>> a) Training
>> b) Racing
>> ( c) TT )
>
> If you are looking for one wheelset to do all of the above, I'd
> recommend that you do something different... get at least 2 sets. The
> (a) set will be inexpensive, heavy, durable, and easy to service...
> something like the ubiquitous Ultegra-Open Pro build for ~$200. It
> would be a good idea to study wheel building and "tune" these as soon
> as you get them though, since wheels in this price range are rarely
> built well. Put some cheap but durable tires on them. These will be
> your daily rider, training, riding in the rain, etc wheels. Your (b)
> and (c) can be combined if you don't have a lot of money. These wheels
> need not be very expensive, but it makes sense to look for good
> aerodynamics. In the under $500 class the new Shimano wheels have
> tested very well aero-wise. Above $500 you can do a little better
> aerodynamically and save a lot of weight with handbuilts. Put the best
> racing tires and latex tubes on these and ride them only when
> competing... that way they will be fresh and stay in good condition.
>
> IMO this is the most sensible and frugal approach, but if you'd like
> to spend more money you certainly can. One thing to remember is that
> your wheels aren't going to make a big difference in your
> performance... unless you think a few of 10ths of a mph in a TT, or a
> few 100ths of a mph on a climb are a lot.
It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
easier to sustain with lighter equipment.
Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
be racing.
Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
terrain of the course. A great, heavy, aero rim for training that is also
adaptable to mostly flat TT's is the Rigida DP18. We don't seem to have all
the varieties of rims from America to compare to. There was a pair of
Velocity Deep V rims that went for 4 euros on eBay, but I couldn't figure
out what to lace their 18 holes to, or I would have tried them.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******
La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Jun 2007 21:48:29
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
|
Sandy wrote:
> It depends, as always. If you are racing, on a 12km climb @ 12%, a 500g
> difference between training and racing wheels means 100 metres advantage at
> the end, and the same 100 metres for 18km @ 6%, both @ 350 watts. Training
> on heavier equipment will also mean the same speeds will be marginally
> easier to sustain with lighter equipment.
There are some interesting assumptions in these figures. For one, a
12km climb at 12% is a huge climb, and if you are racing on such a
course then you are probably riding what the team provides. For amateur
racers, rising mostly crits, such a climb does not occur. Also, the
assumption that the fancier wheels saves 500g is an interesting one.
Very few wheels would (really) be 500g lighter than your basic 32-hole
Open Pro rim and standard Shimano or Campy hub. They may claim to be
lighter, but those claims are usually without skewers and are still shy
of reality.
>
> Racing is getting to the finish line first. Racing is not a very frugal
> environment, unless you don't care about how you finish. Then you wouldn't
> be racing.
>
> Weight, however, has to be balanced with aero effects, as well as the
> terrain of the course.
And durability. An ultralight wheel is worthless if it can't be relied
upon to make it to the finish line.
--
David L. Johnson
Become MicroSoft-free forever. Ask me how.
|
| |
Date: 16 Jun 2007 05:31:00
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 16, 6:27 am, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Jun 16, 7:22 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla wrote:
>
> > > I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> > > what wheel set to buy.
>
> > > What would be your chose for:
> > > a) Training
> > > b) Racing
> > > ( c) TT )
>
> > > I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> > > going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
> > > is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> > > wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
> > > borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> > > rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> > > Thanks!
>
> > Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
> > some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
> > wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
> > friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
> > build a superior set of wheels??
>
> Self portrait? ;)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
teehee....
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Date: 16 Jun 2007 14:36:35
From: still me
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 05:31:00 -0700, Qui si parla Campagnolo
<peter@vecchios.com > wrote:
>> > Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
>> > some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
>> > wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
>> > friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
>> > build a superior set of wheels??
I think they fired that guy for stomping on a bunch of carbon fiber
forks until they were dust and shards and then and kicking them under
the counter to hide them afterwards.
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Date: 16 Jun 2007 05:27:38
From: Johnny Sunset
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 16, 7:22 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla wrote:
>
> > I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> > what wheel set to buy.
>
> > What would be your chose for:
> > a) Training
> > b) Racing
> > ( c) TT )
>
> > I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> > going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
> > is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> > wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
> > borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> > rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> > Thanks!
>
> Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
> some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
> wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
> friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
> build a superior set of wheels??
Self portrait? ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
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Date: 16 Jun 2007 05:22:49
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 15, 9:27 pm, arnthorla <arntho...@gmail.com > wrote:
> I am new to road racing so I have no idea ( or little idea ) of what
> what wheel set to buy.
>
> What would be your chose for:
> a) Training
> b) Racing
> ( c) TT )
>
> I was using Mavic Ksyrium Elite, but the back wheel was constantly
> going out of true, and I ended by snapping a spoke and I think the rim
> is pretty much history now. I have had no problems with the front
> wheel though, so no complaints there, rock solid. But now Im using a
> borrowed rear wheel ( Alexrims R500 ?) that is pretty heavy and the
> rolling resistance is suspect.
>
> Thanks!
Got a bike shop around with an oldfart, grouchy wheel guru..ya know,
some guy that has been building wheels since Jesus was using training
wheels, that drinks beer, swears, rides an old sttewl bike with
friction shifters and generally is disagreeable but can design and
build a superior set of wheels??
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Date: 19 Jun 2007 22:11:42
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: Favorite WheelSets
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On Jun 19, 6:37 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com >
wrote:
> Excuse me, I meant thanks for the info, but it's a little disturbing
> to hear the difference is that much.
The 404s and their clones have been wind tunnel tested many times, but
I have to guess on the Deep Vs. The 30mm rim is ok, but so many round
spokes (28f, 32r) will hurt things. Based on all of Tour Mag's tests
I'd guess a total CdA difference of ~.015m^2 between those two
wheelsets, which is roughly 6% of the total drag (.25m^2) in a decent
but not great TT setup. The speed difference would be then be ~1.8% on
the flat (26.21 vs 25.74mph for a 165lb rider at 300W). If the Deep Vs
had say 18f, 24r CX-Rays I'd expect the drag difference to be ~.
005m^2, and the speed differential only 0.6%. You can make fairly aero
wheels with aluminum rims, but you have to go to deep carbon if you
want that extra fraction of a percent.
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