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Main
Date: 19 May 2007 04:21:20
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Funky crankset
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Hi All,
Here is an interesting item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
Joseph
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Date: 22 May 2007 21:40:50
From: JeffWills
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On May 20, 3:31 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net >
wrote:
> <carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
>
> can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
> circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
> deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
> soon as the rider pushes down.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
> small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
> pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
> inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
> this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
> THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
> the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
> ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
Leo- while I understand your idea, I really, really doubt that this
is the case with this cranky crank. There doesn't appear to be room
for a series of gears transmitting power down the length of the crank,
nor are there any external indications that such is contained in the
crank, nor is there an evidence of a seperate gear at the spindle
attachment. I'd expect all of these to be apparent in the photos. The
crank appears to be solid, forged aluminum.
I think (as others have suggested) that it's a version of the Ramsey/
Dura-Ace AX/stirrup pedal, where the pedal pivot is well above the
bottom of the foot. Whether it's an advantage, well, I dunno.
Yo, 'zark: not only can I not forget the Houdaille PowerCam, I *had*
one. Never mounted it on a bike, though- the right bearing cup ( which
also mounted the cam) was way too cheesy, even for my eccentric
tastes.
Jeff
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Date: 21 May 2007 14:56:25
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 20, 6:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
> >> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
> >> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
> >> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
> >> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
> Carl Sundquist wrote:
> > I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
> > drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
> > RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
> > The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
> > lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
> > threading.
> > *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
> > larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
> > other side is used as a top end gear.
>
> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>
> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reversetrackbike but I've
> never seen a reverse threadtrackcog. In the 20" world there are
> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
> AFAIK.
> --
> AndrewMuziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Dear Andrew,
Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
and fine gear teeth on the front.
It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
museum.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 21 May 2007 22:26:12
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>> threading.
>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but I've
>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>> AFAIK.
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
> and fine gear teeth on the front.
> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
> museum.
That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
change effected?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 22 May 2007 06:49:51
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:1354on55skfbkd5@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds horribly
> complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC gearboxes actually
> work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear change effected?
It is complex, in that you need to have the "high" gear precisely unwound a
specific number of revolutions and set the rear wheel and crank placement
exactly where you want them for the start in order for the "high" gear to
engage when you want it to. I didn't see Lovell's bike, but the
cyclingforums link describes it fairly well. Gene Samuels of Trinidad used a
two gear system, but used a conventional road crank with both chainrings on
the same side of the bike. He had fabricated a special cog that was offset
for the final drive, along with a single freewheel.
I think they got around the fixed cog rule by a slight loophole: for time
trial events on the track where there is only one bike on the track at a
time, you were not required to ride a fixed gear. Either that rule has been
amended or become moot, since many kilos are now ridden pursuit style with
two riders on the track at the same time.
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Date: 21 May 2007 21:37:45
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:26:12 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>> threading.
>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
>
>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but I've
>>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>>> AFAIK.
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
>> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
>> museum.
>
>That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
>
>Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
>horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
>gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
>change effected?
Dear Andrew,
It's just an ultra-bizarre single speed, with no gear change.
http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
A treadle action pushes down alternately on each huge chain ring,
somehow applying the force through tiny gear teeth just visible on the
_inside_ of the monster chain rings.
The rope, protected by the coiled wire from the chain, disengages and
raises one pedal and then the other.
Meanwhile, the chain rings advance endlessly.
If you look closely, you can see that one arm is not really a chain
ring arm--it's attached to the pedal at about 90 degrees and its end
somehow engages those tiny teeth on the inside of the chain ring.
The gearing involving the pedal and that weird arm is somehow so low
that it reduces the monstrous high gearing of those enormous chain
rings to normal gearing. (Don't ask me how.)
In 1898, strange designs were popular, but this one does seem to
border on lunacy, which naturally appealed to me.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 21 May 2007 23:10:20
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>>> threading.
>>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but I've
>>>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>>>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>>>> AFAIK.
>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>>> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
>>> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>>> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
>>> museum.
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
>> Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
>> horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
>> gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
>> change effected?
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> It's just an ultra-bizarre single speed, with no gear change.
> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
> A treadle action pushes down alternately on each huge chain ring,
> somehow applying the force through tiny gear teeth just visible on the
> _inside_ of the monster chain rings.
> The rope, protected by the coiled wire from the chain, disengages and
> raises one pedal and then the other.
> Meanwhile, the chain rings advance endlessly.
> If you look closely, you can see that one arm is not really a chain
> ring arm--it's attached to the pedal at about 90 degrees and its end
> somehow engages those tiny teeth on the inside of the chain ring.
> The gearing involving the pedal and that weird arm is somehow so low
> that it reduces the monstrous high gearing of those enormous chain
> rings to normal gearing. (Don't ask me how.)
> In 1898, strange designs were popular, but this one does seem to
> border on lunacy, which naturally appealed to me.
The bike _you_ referenced was just a pre-Alenax.
It's been done. To death. Whatever.
My question was to Mr Sundquist about a "twin chain track bike with gear
change". Can't see any reason to use twin chains for a 2-speed fixie and
moreover I still can't see how that could even work. Unlike an Alenax,
I find that intriguing.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 22 May 2007 20:34:55
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Mon, 21 May 2007 23:10:20 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
>>>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>>>> threading.
>>>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
>
>>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>>>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but I've
>>>>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>>>>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>>>>> AFAIK.
>
>>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>>>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>>>> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
>>>> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>>>> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
>>>> museum.
>
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
>>> Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
>>> horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
>>> gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
>>> change effected?
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> It's just an ultra-bizarre single speed, with no gear change.
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>> A treadle action pushes down alternately on each huge chain ring,
>> somehow applying the force through tiny gear teeth just visible on the
>> _inside_ of the monster chain rings.
>> The rope, protected by the coiled wire from the chain, disengages and
>> raises one pedal and then the other.
>> Meanwhile, the chain rings advance endlessly.
>> If you look closely, you can see that one arm is not really a chain
>> ring arm--it's attached to the pedal at about 90 degrees and its end
>> somehow engages those tiny teeth on the inside of the chain ring.
>> The gearing involving the pedal and that weird arm is somehow so low
>> that it reduces the monstrous high gearing of those enormous chain
>> rings to normal gearing. (Don't ask me how.)
>> In 1898, strange designs were popular, but this one does seem to
>> border on lunacy, which naturally appealed to me.
>
>The bike _you_ referenced was just a pre-Alenax.
>It's been done. To death. Whatever.
>
>My question was to Mr Sundquist about a "twin chain track bike with gear
>change". Can't see any reason to use twin chains for a 2-speed fixie and
>moreover I still can't see how that could even work. Unlike an Alenax,
>I find that intriguing.
Dear Andrew,
Dianne has explained two such bikes:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/9e13d82a8b094834
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 22 May 2007 21:50:02
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
>>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>>>>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>>>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>>>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>>>>> threading.
>>>>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>>>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
-snip-
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> Dianne has explained two such bikes:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/9e13d82a8b094834
OK, that is clever.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 22 May 2007 07:01:34
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:1354r9t573km642@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with
>>>>>>> chainrings
>>>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
>>>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the
>>>>>> hub.
>>>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>>>> threading.
>>>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
>
>>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>>>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but
>>>>> I've
>>>>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>>>>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>>>>> AFAIK.
>
>>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>>>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>>>> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
>>>> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>>>> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
>>>> museum.
>
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
>>> Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
>>> horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
>>> gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
>>> change effected?
>
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> It's just an ultra-bizarre single speed, with no gear change.
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>> A treadle action pushes down alternately on each huge chain ring,
>> somehow applying the force through tiny gear teeth just visible on the
>> _inside_ of the monster chain rings.
>> The rope, protected by the coiled wire from the chain, disengages and
>> raises one pedal and then the other.
>> Meanwhile, the chain rings advance endlessly.
>> If you look closely, you can see that one arm is not really a chain
>> ring arm--it's attached to the pedal at about 90 degrees and its end
>> somehow engages those tiny teeth on the inside of the chain ring. The
>> gearing involving the pedal and that weird arm is somehow so low
>> that it reduces the monstrous high gearing of those enormous chain
>> rings to normal gearing. (Don't ask me how.)
>> In 1898, strange designs were popular, but this one does seem to
>> border on lunacy, which naturally appealed to me.
>
> The bike _you_ referenced was just a pre-Alenax.
> It's been done. To death. Whatever.
>
> My question was to Mr Sundquist about a "twin chain track bike with gear
> change". Can't see any reason to use twin chains for a 2-speed fixie and
> moreover I still can't see how that could even work. Unlike an Alenax, I
> find that intriguing.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Andrew,
From some Google searching:
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-159462.html (about half-way
down the page there is a description)
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-41-1341-8024/sports/olympics_podium/ (at 1:44
in the video you can see the double-sided drive)
Couldn't find a copy for sale anywhere of:
Champion on Wheels: A Biography of Jocelyn Lovell
by Mary Frances Coady
paper, $4.95, ISBN 0-7725-1568-9
Kerry
|
| | | | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 22:49:37
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Mon, 21 May 2007 23:10:20 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>>>>>>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>>>>>>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>>>>>>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
>>>>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>>>>>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>>>>>> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
>>>>>> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
>>>>>> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>>>>>> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>>>>>> threading.
>>>>>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>>>>>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>>>>>> other side is used as a top end gear.
>
>>>> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>>>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike, but I've
>>>>> never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
>>>>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>>>>> AFAIK.
>
>>> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>>> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>>>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>>>> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
>>>> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>>>> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
>>>> museum.
>
>> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> That is not a fixie, it's just an Alenax with some extra emebellishments
>>> Mr Sundquist says twin chain with two driving ratios. That sounds
>>> horribly complex to me. I still don't 'get' it. Considering ASC
>>> gearboxes actually work, why make a twin chain design? How is the gear
>>> change effected?
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> It's just an ultra-bizarre single speed, with no gear change.
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>> A treadle action pushes down alternately on each huge chain ring,
>> somehow applying the force through tiny gear teeth just visible on the
>> _inside_ of the monster chain rings.
>> The rope, protected by the coiled wire from the chain, disengages and
>> raises one pedal and then the other.
>> Meanwhile, the chain rings advance endlessly.
>> If you look closely, you can see that one arm is not really a chain
>> ring arm--it's attached to the pedal at about 90 degrees and its end
>> somehow engages those tiny teeth on the inside of the chain ring.
>> The gearing involving the pedal and that weird arm is somehow so low
>> that it reduces the monstrous high gearing of those enormous chain
>> rings to normal gearing. (Don't ask me how.)
>> In 1898, strange designs were popular, but this one does seem to
>> border on lunacy, which naturally appealed to me.
>
>The bike _you_ referenced was just a pre-Alenax.
>It's been done. To death. Whatever.
>
>My question was to Mr Sundquist about a "twin chain track bike with gear
>change". Can't see any reason to use twin chains for a 2-speed fixie and
>moreover I still can't see how that could even work. Unlike an Alenax,
>I find that intriguing.
Dear Andrew,
Ah, I misunderstood you--sorry.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 21 May 2007 22:33:05
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1179784585.699502.60760@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On May 20, 6:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote
>> >> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>> >> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>> >> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>> >> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>> Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> > I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing atrackbike with a
>> > drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop,
>> > but
>> > RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the
>> > hub.
>> > The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
>> > lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
>> > threading.
>> > *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>> > larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
>> > other side is used as a top end gear.
>>
>> How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
>>
>> I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reversetrackbike but I've
>> never seen a reverse threadtrackcog. In the 20" world there are
>> reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track
>> AFAIK.
>> --
>> AndrewMuziwww.yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> Here's a twin rear-cog and twin-front-sprocket monster:
>
> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>
> I really like the rope that does something-or-other to the treadles
> and fine gear teeth on the front.
>
> It's from Gilbert King's "The Bicycle" photos of the Metz bicycle
> museum.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
>
Carl,
The rope just causes the treadle that's being pressed down to pull the other
treadle back up, no? Was wondering if the front sprockets having teeth all
the way around meant that the ratchet mechanism is between the treadle crank
arm and the sprocket? If the ratchet mechanism was at the rear wheel, the
front sprockets could be sectors, not full circles.
Thanks for the great photo,
Kerry
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Date: 21 May 2007 16:58:20
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:33:05 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery"
<kamontgo@teleport.com > wrote:
>Carl,
>The rope just causes the treadle that's being pressed down to pull the other
>treadle back up, no? Was wondering if the front sprockets having teeth all
>the way around meant that the ratchet mechanism is between the treadle crank
>arm and the sprocket? If the ratchet mechanism was at the rear wheel, the
>front sprockets could be sectors, not full circles.
>Thanks for the great photo,
>Kerry
Dear Kerry,
It's a treadle mechanism, but the details are a mystery to me.
I _think_ that the pedal arms are pushed down through about 90 degrees
and that they engage the inner track of tiny teeth on the huge
chain-rings with an arm whose end lets it ratchet back up at the end
of the down-stroke.
If so, the pair of huge full-circle chain-rings may advance endlessly,
but I can't really see how the hellish invention worked, what the
purpose of the mammoth chain rings was, or why on earth it was
created:
http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
Weird old bicycle transmissions often stump me.
Here's a once-popular version that gave one forward gear ratio if you
pedalled forward and a different forward gear ratio if you pedalled
backward:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Direct
The page has links to other pages that usually increase my confusion,
but the basic idea is that you pedal forward to go fast on the flats
and pedal backward to climb hills.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 22 May 2007 01:40:18
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:0884531gq2lu2h3qu2p64s43dmbfljvfs0@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:33:05 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery"
> <kamontgo@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>>Carl,
>>The rope just causes the treadle that's being pressed down to pull the
>>other
>>treadle back up, no? Was wondering if the front sprockets having teeth
>>all
>>the way around meant that the ratchet mechanism is between the treadle
>>crank
>>arm and the sprocket? If the ratchet mechanism was at the rear wheel, the
>>front sprockets could be sectors, not full circles.
>>Thanks for the great photo,
>>Kerry
>
> Dear Kerry,
>
> It's a treadle mechanism, but the details are a mystery to me.
>
> I _think_ that the pedal arms are pushed down through about 90 degrees
> and that they engage the inner track of tiny teeth on the huge
> chain-rings with an arm whose end lets it ratchet back up at the end
> of the down-stroke.
>
> If so, the pair of huge full-circle chain-rings may advance endlessly,
> but I can't really see how the hellish invention worked, what the
> purpose of the mammoth chain rings was, or why on earth it was
> created:
>
> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>
> Weird old bicycle transmissions often stump me.
>
> Here's a once-popular version that gave one forward gear ratio if you
> pedalled forward and a different forward gear ratio if you pedalled
> backward:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Direct
>
> The page has links to other pages that usually increase my confusion,
> but the basic idea is that you pedal forward to go fast on the flats
> and pedal backward to climb hills.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Carl,
Looked more closely at the photos - I believe that you are right, the pedal
arms are the long end of an L-shaped piece that rotates about the "BB" axis.
The short end of that L-shaped piece points roughly toward the ground in the
photo, and clearly has a ratchet mechanism at its end that looks to engage
the tiny internal teeth. So, the chain-rings would advance endlessly, and
wouldn't need ratchets at the rear wheel. If that is the design, when
coasting, both the chain-rings would be spinning, and making quite the
ratchet sound, I'd think. Don't know why the high ratio, though.
Kerry
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Date: 21 May 2007 20:03:40
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Tue, 22 May 2007 01:40:18 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery"
<kamontgo@teleport.com > wrote:
>
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:0884531gq2lu2h3qu2p64s43dmbfljvfs0@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 21 May 2007 22:33:05 GMT, "Kerry Montgomery"
>> <kamontgo@teleport.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Carl,
>>>The rope just causes the treadle that's being pressed down to pull the
>>>other
>>>treadle back up, no? Was wondering if the front sprockets having teeth
>>>all
>>>the way around meant that the ratchet mechanism is between the treadle
>>>crank
>>>arm and the sprocket? If the ratchet mechanism was at the rear wheel, the
>>>front sprockets could be sectors, not full circles.
>>>Thanks for the great photo,
>>>Kerry
>>
>> Dear Kerry,
>>
>> It's a treadle mechanism, but the details are a mystery to me.
>>
>> I _think_ that the pedal arms are pushed down through about 90 degrees
>> and that they engage the inner track of tiny teeth on the huge
>> chain-rings with an arm whose end lets it ratchet back up at the end
>> of the down-stroke.
>>
>> If so, the pair of huge full-circle chain-rings may advance endlessly,
>> but I can't really see how the hellish invention worked, what the
>> purpose of the mammoth chain rings was, or why on earth it was
>> created:
>>
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4taqys4.jpg
>>
>> Weird old bicycle transmissions often stump me.
>>
>> Here's a once-popular version that gave one forward gear ratio if you
>> pedalled forward and a different forward gear ratio if you pedalled
>> backward:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retro-Direct
>>
>> The page has links to other pages that usually increase my confusion,
>> but the basic idea is that you pedal forward to go fast on the flats
>> and pedal backward to climb hills.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>Carl,
>Looked more closely at the photos - I believe that you are right, the pedal
>arms are the long end of an L-shaped piece that rotates about the "BB" axis.
>The short end of that L-shaped piece points roughly toward the ground in the
>photo, and clearly has a ratchet mechanism at its end that looks to engage
>the tiny internal teeth. So, the chain-rings would advance endlessly, and
>wouldn't need ratchets at the rear wheel. If that is the design, when
>coasting, both the chain-rings would be spinning, and making quite the
>ratchet sound, I'd think. Don't know why the high ratio, though.
>Kerry
Dear Kerry,
The treadle arm has some gearing that engages the tiny teeth on the
inside of the huge chain rings.
There may be even more gearing concealed.
That unseen gearing may connect the pedal to the tiny teeth on the
inside of the chain ring at a ratio that reduces the monster chain
ring to a fairly normal ratio.
I like the coiled-wire protector that keeps the treadle-rope from
fraying on the chain and sprockets.
Someone could stop by the Metz museum in Freehold, New Jersey, take a
peek at the beast, and reveal its secrets:
http://www.metzbicyclemuseum.com
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 21 May 2007 06:52:23
From: mtb Dad
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On May 20, 2:20 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net > wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1179692961.057289.131070@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
> > of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
> > and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
> > he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing a track bike with a drivetrain
> on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but RH threads on
> the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub. The left side cog
> would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side lockring (for those who
> would choose to use it) would need to have RH threading.
>
> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the other
> side is used as a top end gear.
Yes, I recall Jocelyn Lovell using this for kilos. I think the higher
gear on the left was partly unthreaded att he start, so it tightened
over the first few pedal strokes. Then when tight it became the drive
side and the single frewheel on the right then freewheeled. Do I have
that right?
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Date: 21 May 2007 15:58:36
From: Kinky Cowboy
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On 21 May 2007 06:52:23 -0700, mtb Dad <listerfarrar@telus.net > wrote:
>On May 20, 2:20 pm, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1179692961.057289.131070@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>> > of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>> > and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>> > he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>>
>> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing a track bike with a drivetrain
>> on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but RH threads on
>> the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub. The left side cog
>> would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side lockring (for those who
>> would choose to use it) would need to have RH threading.
>>
>> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
>> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the other
>> side is used as a top end gear.
>
>Yes, I recall Jocelyn Lovell using this for kilos. I think the higher
>gear on the left was partly unthreaded att he start, so it tightened
>over the first few pedal strokes. Then when tight it became the drive
>side and the single frewheel on the right then freewheeled. Do I have
>that right?
I thought it was the other way around, using a conventional RH track
sprocket and a LH (BMX) freewheel, but the principal is the same.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
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Date: 21 May 2007 00:11:03
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On May 21, 1:06 am, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net >
wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote: If there is a planetary gear system,
>
> how is it possible the pedals have gotten themselves into the unrideable
> orientation shown in the pictures that show the back sides of the cranks?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> There are two ways to get from the "unrideable" position to a perfectly
> usable position. First, mount the crank on the bike. If the pedal is not
> in a horizontal position with the clip uppermost, then turn the crank until
> it is. Or, turn just the ring, which will cause the pedal to revolve as it
> rolls on the inside of the ring gear. Stop when the proper position is
> reached. This is how you would get your foot into the clip every time you
> get on the bike.
Ideed, but I was thinking about how the period of rotation of the
pedals/rings would need to match 1:1 and are presumably symetrical.
Looking at the pictures of the back sides of the cranks and noting the
positions of the pedals and the orientation of the arms and bb
spindle, I don't see how this could happen.
> Carl and Joseph, I think the difference in your approach and mine is that I
> am assuming that this is a machine that works, and I have designed, in my
> head, what that machine would have to be. You guys are looking at the
> details in the pictures, and attempting to figure it out from there. I
> think my mechanical engineering degree has influenced my approach. Please
> believe me--the mechanism I have described would work.
I have no doubt that a planetary gear system such as you describe
could function. I just don't think that's how this contraption works!
Not least of which because the joint where the pedal attaches to the
black ring looks too spindly (I couldn't resist!) to support the
rotating function you describe.
> Joseph, for any pedal position on the bike, with a planetary setup, it would
> be possible to turn the pedal to a proper riding position. Of course, at
> the same time, you would be altering the effective crank length as the
> little spindle gear rolls around the inside of the ring. After your foot is
> in, and the pedal has to stay horizontal, the crank angle and length are
> coupled.
Any position is possible with a planetary setup, but the trick is the
positions need to have the possibility of proper sync with each other.
> I think we're going to have to buy this thing just so we can settle this.
> Trouble is, if it's just the three of us, it will cost about $50 per, at
> least. I guess not.
I'm in! We could of course just ask the guy, but that's no fun.
Joseph
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Date: 21 May 2007 03:31:00
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
Joseph Santaniello writes:
> Here is an interesting item:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
It makes the pedal spindle move in an elliptic path about the crank
spindle... but it assumes only downward force. On top of that, the
ellipse is vertical and offset downward from crank center. Pulling
up will make a sudden (ring diameter) advance of the pedal. Don't
worry, you won't find these in production anywhere. It is one of
those goofy ideas that come along now and then, like Durham elliptical
chainwheels, BioPace and other such power enhancement mechanisms.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 20 May 2007 19:00:10
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On May 19, 8:12 pm, "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>
> news:IvJ3i.6998$Sa4.6568@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote: I wonder what the theory is behind
> > the design.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > This is how I have combined reverse engineering and guesswork:
>
> > The pedals are attached to small gears, which revolve inside ring gears,
> so
> > they stay horizontal all the time. As the cranks rotate, then, their
> > effective length changes from a minimum to a maximum and back again.
> This
> > is equivalent to shifting the gearing up and down with each pedal stroke.
> > You can accomplish the same thing with an elliptical chainring more
> simply
> > and with less weight. I like elliptical chainrings on my mountain
> > bike--Jobst says they are worthless. We would probably have the same
> > diagreement about these gadgets, but the weight and dollar penalty would
> be
> > higher.
>
> Not to mention the social stigma. These things scream "dork" -- assuming
> they are not just a sizing tool.
>
> I suspect they are not just a sizing tool (unless Muzzi is positive about
> that) since they are from an era of invention (or re-invention as Carl may
> point out) that included the Bio Cam (fondly called the Trash Cam), the
> Browning electric front derailleur, personal teathers, a Gipiemmi pedal
> with an eccentric for sizing, Rigi dual seat tubes -- and all all sorts of
> other dorky things that no normal person bought. -- Jay Beattie.-
Don't forget the Houdaille PowerCam!
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Date: 20 May 2007 13:54:40
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 20, 10:13 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net >
wrote:
> <carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: (clip) Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely
>
> on the pedal shafts, just as they
> do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
> instantly. (clip)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Dear Carl--With all due respect, I think you've got it wrong. I believe
> each pedal is solidly attached to a small pinion, which rolls around the
> inside of a ring gear. It's like a planetary transmission without the "sun
> gear." The gear ratio is chosen so that the pedals remain horizontal as the
> crank turns. This action turns the rings so the effective crank length
> changes.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the marketing
> department came up with to justify them.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> If you take your feet out of the pedals, so they are free to spin, then the
> rings stop, and the long-short crank action stops. To start riding, you
> would put one foot into a pedal, using the "heel plate" to help the toe to
> enter. The rider is now faced with the task of inserting the other toe.
> The pedal is turning at the same rate as the crank, so the rider uses the
> heel plate to hold it horizontal.
>
> Anyhow, that's how I picture it.
If there is a planetary gear system, how is it possible the pedals
have gotten themselves into the unrideable orientation shown in the
pictures that show the back sides of the cranks?
Joseph
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Date: 20 May 2007 23:06:35
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote: If there is a planetary gear system,
how is it possible the pedals have gotten themselves into the unrideable
orientation shown in the pictures that show the back sides of the cranks?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are two ways to get from the "unrideable" position to a perfectly
usable position. First, mount the crank on the bike. If the pedal is not
in a horizontal position with the clip uppermost, then turn the crank until
it is. Or, turn just the ring, which will cause the pedal to revolve as it
rolls on the inside of the ring gear. Stop when the proper position is
reached. This is how you would get your foot into the clip every time you
get on the bike.
Carl and Joseph, I think the difference in your approach and mine is that I
am assuming that this is a machine that works, and I have designed, in my
head, what that machine would have to be. You guys are looking at the
details in the pictures, and attempting to figure it out from there. I
think my mechanical engineering degree has influenced my approach. Please
believe me--the mechanism I have described would work.
Joseph, for any pedal position on the bike, with a planetary setup, it would
be possible to turn the pedal to a proper riding position. Of course, at
the same time, you would be altering the effective crank length as the
little spindle gear rolls around the inside of the ring. After your foot is
in, and the pedal has to stay horizontal, the crank angle and length are
coupled.
I think we're going to have to buy this thing just so we can settle this.
Trouble is, if it's just the three of us, it will cost about $50 per, at
least. I guess not.
|
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Date: 20 May 2007 16:27:29
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On 20 May 2007 13:54:40 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
>On May 20, 10:13 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net>
>wrote:
>> <carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: (clip) Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely
>>
>> on the pedal shafts, just as they
>> do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
>> instantly. (clip)
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Dear Carl--With all due respect, I think you've got it wrong. I believe
>> each pedal is solidly attached to a small pinion, which rolls around the
>> inside of a ring gear. It's like a planetary transmission without the "sun
>> gear." The gear ratio is chosen so that the pedals remain horizontal as the
>> crank turns. This action turns the rings so the effective crank length
>> changes.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the marketing
>> department came up with to justify them.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> If you take your feet out of the pedals, so they are free to spin, then the
>> rings stop, and the long-short crank action stops. To start riding, you
>> would put one foot into a pedal, using the "heel plate" to help the toe to
>> enter. The rider is now faced with the task of inserting the other toe.
>> The pedal is turning at the same rate as the crank, so the rider uses the
>> heel plate to hold it horizontal.
>>
>> Anyhow, that's how I picture it.
>
>If there is a planetary gear system, how is it possible the pedals
>have gotten themselves into the unrideable orientation shown in the
>pictures that show the back sides of the cranks?
>
>Joseph
Dear Leo & Joseph,
We may be missing each other still, so forgive me another try.
First, the black ring and the solidly attached pedal shaft rotate
inside the end of the crank.
This serves to keep the pedal spindle as close to the ground as
possible throughout the pedal cycle, changing the effective crank
length from short at the top of the pedal cycle (pedal spindle is
close to BB) to long at the bottom of the pedal cycle (pedal spindle
is far from BB).
(There's no advantage to this scheme--it's just how it works.)
Second, does the flat pedal stuck onto the pedal shaft rotate normally
around its shaft? Or is it welded solid?
Hard to tell from the text and pictures.
If you weld the pedal to its shaft, the silly thing will work like a
ferris wheel, whose seats need only one point of rotation to stay
flat.
If you stick a normal ball-bearing pedal on the shaft, it will work,
too, without any welding fuss, and it will rotate under your foot more
easily.
It's hard to tell from the pictures what was done. But the pedals
aren't at a tangent to the black ring, so it's most likely that they
aren't welded to their shafts and are rotating on normal pedal-shaft
bearings.
(Think of what happens if you weld the flat pedal at a
non-ferris-wheel-seat angle. It still works, but you end up
effectively moving the bottom bracket forward or backward. They might
have done this, but then there would really be no point.)
Anyway . . .
1) If the shaft is welded to the ring, that's integrated--you can't
remove the shaft from the ring. You end up replacing the ring and
shaft as a weird unit.
2) If the pedal is welded to the shaft, that's integrated, too--you
can't remove the shaft from the pedal, but you might be able to thread
a whole new pedal and shaft into a hole in the ring.
3) If the shaft is welded to both the ring and the pedal, that's
really integrated--you replace the whole stinking ring-shaft-pedal.
All that we can really say is that the hideous thing isn't a
three-piece scheme in which a normal pedal shaft can be unscrewed from
the black ring and the normal pedal can also be unscrewed from that
shaft--at least two of the three pieces (ring, shaft, pedal) are
permanently joined because the auction says it's "integrated."
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
Of course, I may still be missing your points, so work through it and
see what you think.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 17:05:58
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Sun, 20 May 2007 16:27:29 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On 20 May 2007 13:54:40 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
><joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On May 20, 10:13 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net>
>>wrote:
>>> <carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: (clip) Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely
>>>
>>> on the pedal shafts, just as they
>>> do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
>>> instantly. (clip)
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> Dear Carl--With all due respect, I think you've got it wrong. I believe
>>> each pedal is solidly attached to a small pinion, which rolls around the
>>> inside of a ring gear. It's like a planetary transmission without the "sun
>>> gear." The gear ratio is chosen so that the pedals remain horizontal as the
>>> crank turns. This action turns the rings so the effective crank length
>>> changes.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the marketing
>>> department came up with to justify them.
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> If you take your feet out of the pedals, so they are free to spin, then the
>>> rings stop, and the long-short crank action stops. To start riding, you
>>> would put one foot into a pedal, using the "heel plate" to help the toe to
>>> enter. The rider is now faced with the task of inserting the other toe.
>>> The pedal is turning at the same rate as the crank, so the rider uses the
>>> heel plate to hold it horizontal.
>>>
>>> Anyhow, that's how I picture it.
>>
>>If there is a planetary gear system, how is it possible the pedals
>>have gotten themselves into the unrideable orientation shown in the
>>pictures that show the back sides of the cranks?
>>
>>Joseph
>
>Dear Leo & Joseph,
>
>We may be missing each other still, so forgive me another try.
>
>First, the black ring and the solidly attached pedal shaft rotate
>inside the end of the crank.
>
>This serves to keep the pedal spindle as close to the ground as
>possible throughout the pedal cycle, changing the effective crank
>length from short at the top of the pedal cycle (pedal spindle is
>close to BB) to long at the bottom of the pedal cycle (pedal spindle
>is far from BB).
>
>(There's no advantage to this scheme--it's just how it works.)
>
>Second, does the flat pedal stuck onto the pedal shaft rotate normally
>around its shaft? Or is it welded solid?
>
>Hard to tell from the text and pictures.
>
>If you weld the pedal to its shaft, the silly thing will work like a
>ferris wheel, whose seats need only one point of rotation to stay
>flat.
>
>If you stick a normal ball-bearing pedal on the shaft, it will work,
>too, without any welding fuss, and it will rotate under your foot more
>easily.
>
>It's hard to tell from the pictures what was done. But the pedals
>aren't at a tangent to the black ring, so it's most likely that they
>aren't welded to their shafts and are rotating on normal pedal-shaft
>bearings.
>
>(Think of what happens if you weld the flat pedal at a
>non-ferris-wheel-seat angle. It still works, but you end up
>effectively moving the bottom bracket forward or backward. They might
>have done this, but then there would really be no point.)
>
>Anyway . . .
>
>1) If the shaft is welded to the ring, that's integrated--you can't
>remove the shaft from the ring. You end up replacing the ring and
>shaft as a weird unit.
>
>2) If the pedal is welded to the shaft, that's integrated, too--you
>can't remove the shaft from the pedal, but you might be able to thread
>a whole new pedal and shaft into a hole in the ring.
>
>3) If the shaft is welded to both the ring and the pedal, that's
>really integrated--you replace the whole stinking ring-shaft-pedal.
>
>All that we can really say is that the hideous thing isn't a
>three-piece scheme in which a normal pedal shaft can be unscrewed from
>the black ring and the normal pedal can also be unscrewed from that
>shaft--at least two of the three pieces (ring, shaft, pedal) are
>permanently joined because the auction says it's "integrated."
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
>Of course, I may still be missing your points, so work through it and
>see what you think.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
Actually, when I think about it some, you can't have the pedal welded
to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the circle, like the seat of
a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal deviates from a
tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as soon as the
rider pushes down.
CF
|
| | | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 23:31:03
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
soon as the rider pushes down.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 20:59:41
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:03 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
<l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote:
>
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
>can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
>circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
>deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
>soon as the rider pushes down.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
>small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
>pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
>inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
>this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
>THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
>the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
>ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
Dear Leo,
I suppose that you could use gearing in the end of the crank in some
way, but you don't need any gearing.
All you need are ball bearings in the black ring, like earlier pedal
designs.
Here's a crude diagram:
http://i17.tinypic.com/66y4s53.jpg
You can get away with welding the pedals to the pedal shaft if you
weld them at a tangent to the black free-spinning rings.
But the auction pictures show the pedals at up to 90 degrees to the
tangent of the black rings, so the pedals are presumably just ordinary
free-spinning pedals.
If you welded the pedals off-tangent, they'd dump the rider's foot as
he pushed down, just as an off-tangent ferris-wheel seat would dump
passengers.
Maybe some gearing would get around all this, but free-spinning ball
bearings are simpler. Possibly gearing would force some strange
changes in where the effective crank length changed around the pedal
cycle, but I suspect that it's all pretty much pointless.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| |
Date: 20 May 2007 13:29:21
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 20, 9:46 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 19 May 2007 23:44:04 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> >I still think the pedal has a fixed orientation to the black ring. The
> >angle of the pedals relative to the black circles seems the same in
> >all the pictures. And if they were free to rotate why would the huge
> >kick-flip tabs be needed?
>
> [snip]
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> We may be misunderstanding each other.
>
> In these two pictures, the point where the pedal attaches to the black
> ring on the bare crank arm has moved about 90 degrees:
>
> http://i10.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9f/ag/2da1_1.JPGhttp://i17.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/9f/ag/316c_1.JPG
>
> In these two pictures, the point where the pedal attaches to the black
> ring of the crank arm with the chain rings has moved about 180 degrees
> (the crank is flipped from picture to picture):
>
> http://i24.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9f/ag/2ef5_1.JPGhttp://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9f/ag/3036_1.JPG
>
> The pedal shafts are attached to the round black rings, which rotate
> freely and change the effective crank length throughout the pedal
> cycle (though not with any known advantage).
>
> Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely on the pedal shafts, just as they
> do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
> instantly.
I agree it seems the black rings are free to rotate, but I still think
the pedals are fixed to the rings, and do not rotate. And as foolish
as this contraption may be, if the pedals rotated freely on their
spindles, the whole thing would be a wobbly mess that could have much
more easily been accomplished with Ramsey type pedals. And as the
black rings are free to rotate, one's feet wouldn't be thrown from the
pedals, however odd it may feel to use them! I take as further
evidence, the non-standard dust-cap indicating these are not normal
pedals. And in all the pictures, the lower back edge of the rear pedal
cage seems to be right in the center of the ring. This indicates that
the pedals always have the same orientation to the black rings. And
the huge kick-tabs that extend back past the rings rotation point
would be the only way to get the pedals upright when entering them as
they do not hang down like Ramsey pedals, but stick forward in the 3 o-
clock position (viewed from the drive side with the pedal oriented for
use). And the ad says the pedals are not removable. If the pedals
rotated freely as normal pedals why would they not use normal
removable pedals? And the fact that they made such a crazy contraption
in the first place is not an argument;-)
> As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the
> marketing department came up with to justify them. Probably the idea
> is that the springy heel plates replace the normal straps used with
> toe cages.
This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 20 May 2007 16:20:05
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179692961.057289.131070@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
>
I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing a track bike with a drivetrain
on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but RH threads on
the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub. The left side cog
would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side lockring (for those who
would choose to use it) would need to have RH threading.
*This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the other
side is used as a top end gear.
|
| | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 19:26:43
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote
>> This crazy thing is pure quackery. No marketing involved! Reminds me
>> of the guy I knew who said he wanted a fixed gear bike with chainrings
>> and cogs on both sides so he could get power with each stroke. Maybe
>> he worked at Gipiemme in a former life! I still want it though.
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> I recall seeing a Pinarello brochure showing a track bike with a
> drivetrain on both sides* Mind you, the hub would not be a flipflop, but
> RH threads on the right side and LH threads on the left side of the hub.
> The left side cog would need to be threaded LH as well. The left side
> lockring (for those who would choose to use it) would need to have RH
> threading.
> *This has been done in the past as a two speed setup for kilo riders. A
> larger cog is used to facilitate quicker acceleration, the cog on the
> other side is used as a top end gear.
How does that work ? One side can be disengaged?
I remember the '75 Masi catalog with a photo-reverse track bike but I've
never seen a reverse thread track cog. In the 20" world there are
reverse freewheels and matching left-drive hubs, but not track AFAIK.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 23:44:04
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 19, 11:21 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 19 May 2007 14:03:46 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 19, 8:36 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On 19 May 2007 04:21:20 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Hi All,
>
> >> >Here is an interesting item:
>
> >> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> >> >I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
> >> >Joseph
>
> >> Dear Joseph,
>
> >> It's a modern version (like the Shimano AX) of the Ramsey Swinging
> >> Pedal of 1898, pictured below:
>
> >>http://i12.tinypic.com/5z2l4ph.jpg
>
> >> Here's the theory, which is entertaining balderdash:
>
> >> "Ramsey's Swinging Pedal is one of the decided novelties for 1898,
> >> designed primarily to add to the ease of controlling a bicycle through
> >> its driving mechanism, to render it less difficult than formerly to
> >> catch a slipped pedal, and to allow the freest ankle motion. In
> >> action, it transmits automatically, in conformity with the arc of the
> >> circle described by the pedals, the applied power of the rider, thus
> >> maintaining the full leverage of the crank over an increased arc of
> >> that circle, converting the straight push into an improved and
> >> automatic ankle motion. It is claimed to entirely obviate the 'dead
> >> center,' thus avoiding the hammer blow and back lash of the chain,
> >> developing more propelling power than can be obtained by the best
> >> ankle motion with the ordinary pedals. The pick-up of a Ramsey pedal
> >> is instantaneous, and momentum is gained at once; the pedal is always
> >> right side up, and consequently the toe-clip is always ready for the
> >> foot. With so little depth of pedal beneath the foot, the rider is
> >> enabled to sit nearer the ground without decreasing the distance
> >> between the ground and the pedal. Manufactured by the Ramsey Swinging
> >> Pedal Company, Philadelphia, Pa."
>
> >> Price, $5.00.
>
> >> "Outing" magazine, p. 104-5
>
> >>http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_32/outXXXII01/outXXX...
>
> >> Cheers,
>
> >> Carl Fogel
>
> >That's some impressive mumbo-jumbo! Have you ever played buzz-word
> >bingo?
>
> >The funny thing about these pedals is they seem to be fixed to the
> >black rings at the forward position, and presumably the black rings
> >are free to rotate. At first I thought this would be a wobbly set-up
> >like a huge stack height, but as the pedal is fixed at the forward
> >position, perhaps it is in a way "self-energizing" in a way that
> >changes the crank length during the power stroke. I wonder if it tends
> >to push the pedal one way or the other in some uncomfortable way. I
> >might just have to find out!
>
> >Joseph
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> No, they're not fixed. You can see them rotating in the different
> pictures in the ad:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> Look at the crank with no chain rings in various pictures.
>
> The big ring in the end of the crank to which the pedal shaft is
> attached rotates.
>
> Then the pedal rotates around the pedal shaft.
I still think the pedal has a fixed orientation to the black ring. The
angle of the pedals relative to the black circles seems the same in
all the pictures. And if they were free to rotate why would the huge
kick-flip tabs be needed?
>
> If the long arrangment gives a 175 mm crank at the bottom of the pedal
> stroke, the result is that you have a weirdly shortened crank at the
> top of the stroke, about 120 mm.
>
> The picture indicates a roughly 1.75 to 2.625 ratio between the long
> and short sides of the ring. A quick and dirty ruler shows 1 & 3/4
> inches and 2 & 5/8 inches on my screen. Without a real crank, it's
> hard to measure precisely, but you can see at a glance that the change
> is large.
>
> Since you're putting almost no force into the pedal at top dead
> center, the huge reduction doesn't matter much.
>
I suppose the shape of the pedal stroke is part of the idea. If the
circles are geared (which I don't belive), the pedal path would just
be an elipse, but as I believe the circles rotate freely, the shape is
affected by the ankle angle throughout the stroke. This is where I
think the main effect of this contraption is realized: in the minor
crank length change that happens between the forward and bottom pedal
positions where force application is maximum. The large difference
that happens at TDC as you say doesn't matter and I suspect is just a
side effect.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 21 May 2007 23:00:34
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 21, 8:19 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 21 May 2007 00:25:32 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 21, 4:59 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:03 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
>
> >> <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >> ><carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
> >> >can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
> >> >circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
> >> >deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
> >> >soon as the rider pushes down.
> >> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
> >> >small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
> >> >pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
> >> >inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
> >> >this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
> >> >THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
> >> >the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
> >> >ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
>
> >> Dear Leo,
>
> >> I suppose that you could use gearing in the end of the crank in some
> >> way, but you don't need any gearing.
>
> >> All you need are ball bearings in the black ring, like earlier pedal
> >> designs.
>
> >> Here's a crude diagram:
>
> >>http://i17.tinypic.com/66y4s53.jpg
>
> >> You can get away with welding the pedals to the pedal shaft if you
> >> weld them at a tangent to the black free-spinning rings.
>
> >Then it is just a overly complex Ramesy pedal.
>
> >> But the auction pictures show the pedals at up to 90 degrees to the
> >> tangent of the black rings, so the pedals are presumably just ordinary
> >> free-spinning pedals.
>
> >> If you welded the pedals off-tangent, they'd dump the rider's foot as
> >> he pushed down, just as an off-tangent ferris-wheel seat would dump
> >> passengers.
>
> >No doubt cleats, straps, and tightly laced stiff-soled shoes are a
> >good idea, but I don' think non-tangent welded pedals would throw
> >one's feet. No worse than when you pedal with only the tips of you
> >toes barely over the spindle of normal pedals. Since you feet are not
> >free-standing weights that are just plonked onto the pedals like
> >ferris-wheel victims, you have your ankles and calf muscles to counter
> >the tippieness of the non-tangent pedals. Maybe the point of this
> >thing isn't so much to create an elliptical pedal path or to have a
> >crank position dependent crank length, but rather to get the calf
> >muscles in on the action?
>
> >> Maybe some gearing would get around all this, but free-spinning ball
> >> bearings are simpler. Possibly gearing would force some strange
> >> changes in where the effective crank length changed around the pedal
> >> cycle, but I suspect that it's all pretty much pointless.
>
> >I agree, gearing is too complex for even such silly thing as this.
>
> >Joseph
>
> Dear Joseph & Leo,
>
> I asked the seller:
>
> "Hi, Can you tell me if the pedals rotate freely on the pedal shaft
> and if the black ring from which the pedal shaft sticks out rotates
> freely in the end of the crank? Or is there some hidden internal
> gearing? Thanks, Carl Fogel"
>
> He replied:
>
> "The pedal is stuck onto the black ring and doesn't rotate freely.
> Regards David"
>
> I _think_ that this means that I was wrong and that the pedal, shaft,
> and ring all act as a solid piece--the flat pedal stays at that angle,
> across the black ring instead of at a tangent or spinning.
>
> The reply says nothing about whether the black ring rotates or any
> internal gearing, so I'm baffled.
>
> If the ring rotates freely (no comment from seller on this point),
> then pushing down on the pedal fixed across the black ring should tilt
> the pedal horribly downward. But maybe the huge heel plate overcomes
> the comparatively small leverage of the pedal spindle on the edge of
> the circle?
>
> I couldn't find anything about Colrout on the internet.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
It seems I deduced correctly. You say the heel plates may help counter
the "dumping" action, but I think if there is any dumping action it
happens the other way!
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 20 May 2007 13:46:52
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On 19 May 2007 23:44:04 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
[snip]
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>I still think the pedal has a fixed orientation to the black ring. The
>angle of the pedals relative to the black circles seems the same in
>all the pictures. And if they were free to rotate why would the huge
>kick-flip tabs be needed?
[snip]
Dear Joseph,
We may be misunderstanding each other.
In these two pictures, the point where the pedal attaches to the black
ring on the bare crank arm has moved about 90 degrees:
http://i10.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9f/ag/2da1_1.JPG
http://i17.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/9f/ag/316c_1.JPG
In these two pictures, the point where the pedal attaches to the black
ring of the crank arm with the chain rings has moved about 180 degrees
(the crank is flipped from picture to picture):
http://i24.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9f/ag/2ef5_1.JPG
http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/9f/ag/3036_1.JPG
The pedal shafts are attached to the round black rings, which rotate
freely and change the effective crank length throughout the pedal
cycle (though not with any known advantage).
Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely on the pedal shafts, just as they
do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
instantly.
As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the
marketing department came up with to justify them. Probably the idea
is that the springy heel plates replace the normal straps used with
toe cages.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 20:13:15
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote: (clip) Meanwhile, the pedals rotate freely
on the pedal shafts, just as they
do on any normal bicycle. Otherwise, they'd throw the rider's feet off
instantly. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dear Carl--With all due respect, I think you've got it wrong. I believe
each pedal is solidly attached to a small pinion, which rolls around the
inside of a ring gear. It's like a planetary transmission without the "sun
gear." The gear ratio is chosen so that the pedals remain horizontal as the
crank turns. This action turns the rings so the effective crank length
changes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As for the heel plates, I shudder to think what explanations the marketing
department came up with to justify them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you take your feet out of the pedals, so they are free to spin, then the
rings stop, and the long-short crank action stops. To start riding, you
would put one foot into a pedal, using the "heel plate" to help the toe to
enter. The rider is now faced with the task of inserting the other toe.
The pedal is turning at the same rate as the crank, so the rider uses the
heel plate to hold it horizontal.
Anyhow, that's how I picture it.
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 14:03:46
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 19, 8:36 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On 19 May 2007 04:21:20 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Hi All,
>
> >Here is an interesting item:
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> >I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
> >Joseph
>
> Dear Joseph,
>
> It's a modern version (like the Shimano AX) of the Ramsey Swinging
> Pedal of 1898, pictured below:
>
> http://i12.tinypic.com/5z2l4ph.jpg
>
> Here's the theory, which is entertaining balderdash:
>
> "Ramsey's Swinging Pedal is one of the decided novelties for 1898,
> designed primarily to add to the ease of controlling a bicycle through
> its driving mechanism, to render it less difficult than formerly to
> catch a slipped pedal, and to allow the freest ankle motion. In
> action, it transmits automatically, in conformity with the arc of the
> circle described by the pedals, the applied power of the rider, thus
> maintaining the full leverage of the crank over an increased arc of
> that circle, converting the straight push into an improved and
> automatic ankle motion. It is claimed to entirely obviate the 'dead
> center,' thus avoiding the hammer blow and back lash of the chain,
> developing more propelling power than can be obtained by the best
> ankle motion with the ordinary pedals. The pick-up of a Ramsey pedal
> is instantaneous, and momentum is gained at once; the pedal is always
> right side up, and consequently the toe-clip is always ready for the
> foot. With so little depth of pedal beneath the foot, the rider is
> enabled to sit nearer the ground without decreasing the distance
> between the ground and the pedal. Manufactured by the Ramsey Swinging
> Pedal Company, Philadelphia, Pa."
>
> Price, $5.00.
>
> "Outing" magazine, p. 104-5
>
> http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_32/outXXXII01/outXXX...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
That's some impressive mumbo-jumbo! Have you ever played buzz-word
bingo?
The funny thing about these pedals is they seem to be fixed to the
black rings at the forward position, and presumably the black rings
are free to rotate. At first I thought this would be a wobbly set-up
like a huge stack height, but as the pedal is fixed at the forward
position, perhaps it is in a way "self-energizing" in a way that
changes the crank length during the power stroke. I wonder if it tends
to push the pedal one way or the other in some uncomfortable way. I
might just have to find out!
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 21 May 2007 00:25:32
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On May 21, 4:59 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
> On Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:03 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
>
>
>
> <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> ><carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
> >can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
> >circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
> >deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
> >soon as the rider pushes down.
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
> >small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
> >pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
> >inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
> >this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
> >THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
> >the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
> >ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
>
> Dear Leo,
>
> I suppose that you could use gearing in the end of the crank in some
> way, but you don't need any gearing.
>
> All you need are ball bearings in the black ring, like earlier pedal
> designs.
>
> Here's a crude diagram:
>
> http://i17.tinypic.com/66y4s53.jpg
>
> You can get away with welding the pedals to the pedal shaft if you
> weld them at a tangent to the black free-spinning rings.
Then it is just a overly complex Ramesy pedal.
> But the auction pictures show the pedals at up to 90 degrees to the
> tangent of the black rings, so the pedals are presumably just ordinary
> free-spinning pedals.
>
> If you welded the pedals off-tangent, they'd dump the rider's foot as
> he pushed down, just as an off-tangent ferris-wheel seat would dump
> passengers.
No doubt cleats, straps, and tightly laced stiff-soled shoes are a
good idea, but I don' think non-tangent welded pedals would throw
one's feet. No worse than when you pedal with only the tips of you
toes barely over the spindle of normal pedals. Since you feet are not
free-standing weights that are just plonked onto the pedals like
ferris-wheel victims, you have your ankles and calf muscles to counter
the tippieness of the non-tangent pedals. Maybe the point of this
thing isn't so much to create an elliptical pedal path or to have a
crank position dependent crank length, but rather to get the calf
muscles in on the action?
> Maybe some gearing would get around all this, but free-spinning ball
> bearings are simpler. Possibly gearing would force some strange
> changes in where the effective crank length changed around the pedal
> cycle, but I suspect that it's all pretty much pointless.
>
I agree, gearing is too complex for even such silly thing as this.
Joseph
|
| | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 12:19:46
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On 21 May 2007 00:25:32 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
>On May 21, 4:59 am, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 May 2007 23:31:03 GMT, "Leo Lichtman"
>>
>>
>>
>> <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>> ><carlfo...@comcast.net> wrote: Actually, when I think about it some, you
>> >can't have the pedal welded to the shaft at anything but a tangent to the
>> >circle, like the seat of a ferris wheel. The more the flat of the pedal
>> >deviates from a tangent, the more it's going to dump the rider's foot as
>> >soon as the rider pushes down.
>> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >Carl, picture a ring gear, teeth pointed radially inward. Now picture a
>> >small pinion meshed with the ring gear. Now attach a pedal rigidly to the
>> >pinion, at some arbitrary angle. You can now roll the pinion around the
>> >inside of the ring gear until the pedal is horizontal. If you now mount
>> >this assembly on the end of a crank, you can put your foot on the pedal.
>> >THIS IS IMPORTANT: The ring gear has to be free to rotate with respect to
>> >the crank. If you now start to pedal, the spindle pinion will drive the
>> >ring gear, extending or shortening the effective crank length.
>>
>> Dear Leo,
>>
>> I suppose that you could use gearing in the end of the crank in some
>> way, but you don't need any gearing.
>>
>> All you need are ball bearings in the black ring, like earlier pedal
>> designs.
>>
>> Here's a crude diagram:
>>
>> http://i17.tinypic.com/66y4s53.jpg
>>
>> You can get away with welding the pedals to the pedal shaft if you
>> weld them at a tangent to the black free-spinning rings.
>
>Then it is just a overly complex Ramesy pedal.
>
>> But the auction pictures show the pedals at up to 90 degrees to the
>> tangent of the black rings, so the pedals are presumably just ordinary
>> free-spinning pedals.
>>
>> If you welded the pedals off-tangent, they'd dump the rider's foot as
>> he pushed down, just as an off-tangent ferris-wheel seat would dump
>> passengers.
>
>No doubt cleats, straps, and tightly laced stiff-soled shoes are a
>good idea, but I don' think non-tangent welded pedals would throw
>one's feet. No worse than when you pedal with only the tips of you
>toes barely over the spindle of normal pedals. Since you feet are not
>free-standing weights that are just plonked onto the pedals like
>ferris-wheel victims, you have your ankles and calf muscles to counter
>the tippieness of the non-tangent pedals. Maybe the point of this
>thing isn't so much to create an elliptical pedal path or to have a
>crank position dependent crank length, but rather to get the calf
>muscles in on the action?
>
>> Maybe some gearing would get around all this, but free-spinning ball
>> bearings are simpler. Possibly gearing would force some strange
>> changes in where the effective crank length changed around the pedal
>> cycle, but I suspect that it's all pretty much pointless.
>>
>
>I agree, gearing is too complex for even such silly thing as this.
>
>Joseph
Dear Joseph & Leo,
I asked the seller:
"Hi, Can you tell me if the pedals rotate freely on the pedal shaft
and if the black ring from which the pedal shaft sticks out rotates
freely in the end of the crank? Or is there some hidden internal
gearing? Thanks, Carl Fogel"
He replied:
"The pedal is stuck onto the black ring and doesn't rotate freely.
Regards David"
I _think_ that this means that I was wrong and that the pedal, shaft,
and ring all act as a solid piece--the flat pedal stays at that angle,
across the black ring instead of at a tangent or spinning.
The reply says nothing about whether the black ring rotates or any
internal gearing, so I'm baffled.
If the ring rotates freely (no comment from seller on this point),
then pushing down on the pedal fixed across the black ring should tilt
the pedal horribly downward. But maybe the huge heel plate overcomes
the comparatively small leverage of the pedal spindle on the edge of
the circle?
I couldn't find anything about Colrout on the internet.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 20:00:27
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote: (clip) I _think_ that this means that I was
wrong and that the pedal, shaft,
> and ring all act as a solid piece--the flat pedal stays at that angle,
> across the black ring instead of at a tangent or spinning.
>
> The reply says nothing about whether the black ring rotates or any
> internal gearing, so I'm baffled. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It also means that I was wrong, but it does reveal how the thing works. The
pedal, with its alignment plate stays essentially horizontal as the crank
turns. The ring is a ball bearing--this results in a variable effective
crank length from adding and subtracting the bearing diameter. At the
height of the power stroke, the pedal moves forward, maximizing the
leverage. On the back of the stroke, the pedal is still forward, minimizing
the leverage (when it counts the least.)
I was also wrong in concluding that this is the same as an elliptical chain
ring, since an elliptical ring treats the rear pedal the same as the front
one. I think Jobst is incorrect in stating that the pedal orbit is
elliptical, but I will have to plot it out to be sure.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 20:39:53
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
"Leo Lichtman" wrote: (clip) I think Jobst is incorrect in stating that
the pedal orbit is elliptical, but I will have to plot it out to be sure.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A-HA! I just did the plot, and found what should have been obvious. The
pedals still move in a circular orbit, just as they would without the goofy
rings. However, the effect of the rings is to move the effective crank
center BACKWARD, so the leverage is increased during the power stroke, and
decreased on the return stroke. The thing would probably help in climbing
hills that are so steep that you can barely push the pedals down. It
wouldn't help if your cadence is good, or if you have downshifts left.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 21:46:34
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:tsn4i.25978$p47.14810@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> "Leo Lichtman" wrote: (clip) I think Jobst is incorrect in stating that
> the pedal orbit is elliptical, but I will have to plot it out to be sure.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A-HA! I just did the plot, and found what should have been obvious. The
> pedals still move in a circular orbit, just as they would without the
> goofy rings. However, the effect of the rings is to move the effective
> crank center BACKWARD, so the leverage is increased during the power
> stroke, and decreased on the return stroke. The thing would probably help
> in climbing hills that are so steep that you can barely push the pedals
> down. It wouldn't help if your cadence is good, or if you have downshifts
> left.
>
Leo,
So is the effect the same as if the saddle were just shifted forward? And
the handlebars too, for that matter.
Thanks,
Kerry
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 21 May 2007 22:52:09
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
"Kerry Montgomery" wrote: So is the effect the same as if the saddle were
just shifted forward? And the handlebars too, for that matter.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not really--that would have no effect on the crank length. It is as though
the bottom bracket is moved backward from the center of the chainring
WITHOUT CHANGING THE CENTER OF THE CHAINRING, as strange as that sounds.
We don't know the actual length of the crank arms, so it is hard to guess
whether you would have to readjust the seat. (And, of course, if you
readjust the seat to match the pedals, you would probably move the
handlebars as well.)
|
| | |
Date: 19 May 2007 15:21:25
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On 19 May 2007 14:03:46 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
>On May 19, 8:36 pm, carlfo...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On 19 May 2007 04:21:20 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>>
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Hi All,
>>
>> >Here is an interesting item:
>>
>> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>>
>> >I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>>
>> >Joseph
>>
>> Dear Joseph,
>>
>> It's a modern version (like the Shimano AX) of the Ramsey Swinging
>> Pedal of 1898, pictured below:
>>
>> http://i12.tinypic.com/5z2l4ph.jpg
>>
>> Here's the theory, which is entertaining balderdash:
>>
>> "Ramsey's Swinging Pedal is one of the decided novelties for 1898,
>> designed primarily to add to the ease of controlling a bicycle through
>> its driving mechanism, to render it less difficult than formerly to
>> catch a slipped pedal, and to allow the freest ankle motion. In
>> action, it transmits automatically, in conformity with the arc of the
>> circle described by the pedals, the applied power of the rider, thus
>> maintaining the full leverage of the crank over an increased arc of
>> that circle, converting the straight push into an improved and
>> automatic ankle motion. It is claimed to entirely obviate the 'dead
>> center,' thus avoiding the hammer blow and back lash of the chain,
>> developing more propelling power than can be obtained by the best
>> ankle motion with the ordinary pedals. The pick-up of a Ramsey pedal
>> is instantaneous, and momentum is gained at once; the pedal is always
>> right side up, and consequently the toe-clip is always ready for the
>> foot. With so little depth of pedal beneath the foot, the rider is
>> enabled to sit nearer the ground without decreasing the distance
>> between the ground and the pedal. Manufactured by the Ramsey Swinging
>> Pedal Company, Philadelphia, Pa."
>>
>> Price, $5.00.
>>
>> "Outing" magazine, p. 104-5
>>
>> http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_32/outXXXII01/outXXX...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>That's some impressive mumbo-jumbo! Have you ever played buzz-word
>bingo?
>
>The funny thing about these pedals is they seem to be fixed to the
>black rings at the forward position, and presumably the black rings
>are free to rotate. At first I thought this would be a wobbly set-up
>like a huge stack height, but as the pedal is fixed at the forward
>position, perhaps it is in a way "self-energizing" in a way that
>changes the crank length during the power stroke. I wonder if it tends
>to push the pedal one way or the other in some uncomfortable way. I
>might just have to find out!
>
>Joseph
Dear Joseph,
No, they're not fixed. You can see them rotating in the different
pictures in the ad:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
Look at the crank with no chain rings in various pictures.
The big ring in the end of the crank to which the pedal shaft is
attached rotates.
Then the pedal rotates around the pedal shaft.
If the long arrangment gives a 175 mm crank at the bottom of the pedal
stroke, the result is that you have a weirdly shortened crank at the
top of the stroke, about 120 mm.
The picture indicates a roughly 1.75 to 2.625 ratio between the long
and short sides of the ring. A quick and dirty ruler shows 1 & 3/4
inches and 2 & 5/8 inches on my screen. Without a real crank, it's
hard to measure precisely, but you can see at a glance that the change
is large.
Since you're putting almost no force into the pedal at top dead
center, the huge reduction doesn't matter much.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 20:56:08
From: Leo Lichtman
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote: I wonder what the theory is behind
the design.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is how I have combined reverse engineering and guesswork:
The pedals are attached to small gears, which revolve inside ring gears, so
they stay horizontal all the time. As the cranks rotate, then, their
effective length changes from a minimum to a maximum and back again. This
is equivalent to shifting the gearing up and down with each pedal stroke.
You can accomplish the same thing with an elliptical chainring more simply
and with less weight. I like elliptical chainrings on my mountain
bike--Jobst says they are worthless. We would probably have the same
diagreement about these gadgets, but the weight and dollar penalty would be
higher.
|
| | |
Date: 19 May 2007 18:12:53
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
"Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net > wrote in message
news:IvJ3i.6998$Sa4.6568@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote: I wonder what the theory is behind
> the design.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is how I have combined reverse engineering and guesswork:
>
> The pedals are attached to small gears, which revolve inside ring gears,
so
> they stay horizontal all the time. As the cranks rotate, then, their
> effective length changes from a minimum to a maximum and back again.
This
> is equivalent to shifting the gearing up and down with each pedal stroke.
> You can accomplish the same thing with an elliptical chainring more
simply
> and with less weight. I like elliptical chainrings on my mountain
> bike--Jobst says they are worthless. We would probably have the same
> diagreement about these gadgets, but the weight and dollar penalty would
be
> higher.
Not to mention the social stigma. These things scream "dork" -- assuming
they are not just a sizing tool.
I suspect they are not just a sizing tool (unless Muzzi is positive about
that) since they are from an era of invention (or re-invention as Carl may
point out) that included the Bio Cam (fondly called the Trash Cam), the
Browning electric front derailleur, personal teathers, a Gipiemmi pedal
with an eccentric for sizing, Rigi dual seat tubes -- and all all sorts of
other dorky things that no normal person bought. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| | | |
Date: 20 May 2007 15:58:38
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
>> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.lichtman@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>> This is how I have combined reverse engineering and guesswork:
>> The pedals are attached to small gears, which revolve inside ring gears,
> so
>> they stay horizontal all the time. As the cranks rotate, then, their
>> effective length changes from a minimum to a maximum and back again.
> This
>> is equivalent to shifting the gearing up and down with each pedal stroke.
>> You can accomplish the same thing with an elliptical chainring more
> simply
>> and with less weight. I like elliptical chainrings on my mountain
>> bike--Jobst says they are worthless. We would probably have the same
>> diagreement about these gadgets, but the weight and dollar penalty would
> be
>> higher.
Jay Beattie wrote:
> Not to mention the social stigma. These things scream "dork" -- assuming
> they are not just a sizing tool.
>
> I suspect they are not just a sizing tool (unless Muzi is positive about
> that) since they are from an era of invention (or re-invention as Carl may
> point out) that included the Bio Cam (fondly called the Trash Cam), the
> Browning electric front derailleur, personal teathers, a Gipiemmi pedal
> with an eccentric for sizing, Rigi dual seat tubes -- and all all sorts of
> other dorky things that no normal person bought. -- Jay Beattie.
You may be right (surely regarding dorkiness!). I speculated, as I
didn't see any useful advantage otherwise. That design can't achieve the
below-spindle feature of an AX pedal or Carl's referenced pre-AX Ramsey
Swinging pedal. It's a complex an dheavy way to get variable crank
length. If the black rings spin within the cranks, it's a useless
gimmick - maybe almost to the PMP level for useless extra weight.
I thought of one feature. If you _ever_ see one on the bike next to you,
it's a signal to either go a lot faster or slow down!
p.s. Browning "Beast" actually worked, and worked well.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 12:36:55
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On 19 May 2007 04:21:20 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Here is an interesting item:
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
>I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
>Joseph
Dear Joseph,
It's a modern version (like the Shimano AX) of the Ramsey Swinging
Pedal of 1898, pictured below:
http://i12.tinypic.com/5z2l4ph.jpg
Here's the theory, which is entertaining balderdash:
"Ramsey’s Swinging Pedal is one of the decided novelties for 1898,
designed primarily to add to the ease of controlling a bicycle through
its driving mechanism, to render it less difficult than formerly to
catch a slipped pedal, and to allow the freest ankle motion. In
action, it transmits automatically, in conformity with the arc of the
circle described by the pedals, the applied power of the rider, thus
maintaining the full leverage of the crank over an increased arc of
that circle, converting the straight push into an improved and
automatic ankle motion. It is claimed to entirely obviate the 'dead
center,' thus avoiding the hammer blow and back lash of the chain,
developing more propelling power than can be obtained by the best
ankle motion with the ordinary pedals. The pick-up of a Ramsey pedal
is instantaneous, and momentum is gained at once; the pedal is always
right side up, and consequently the toe-clip is always ready for the
foot. With so little depth of pedal beneath the foot, the rider is
enabled to sit nearer the ground without decreasing the distance
between the ground and the pedal. Manufactured by the Ramsey Swinging
Pedal Company, Philadelphia, Pa."
Price, $5.00.
"Outing" magazine, p. 104-5
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_32/outXXXII01/outXXXII01ze.pdf
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | |
Date: 19 May 2007 13:58:05
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Sat, 19 May 2007 12:36:55 -0600, carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>On 19 May 2007 04:21:20 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
><joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>Here is an interesting item:
>>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>>
>>I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>>
>>Joseph
>
>Dear Joseph,
>
>It's a modern version (like the Shimano AX) of the Ramsey Swinging
>Pedal of 1898, pictured below:
>
>http://i12.tinypic.com/5z2l4ph.jpg
>
>Here's the theory, which is entertaining balderdash:
>
>"Ramsey’s Swinging Pedal is one of the decided novelties for 1898,
>designed primarily to add to the ease of controlling a bicycle through
>its driving mechanism, to render it less difficult than formerly to
>catch a slipped pedal, and to allow the freest ankle motion. In
>action, it transmits automatically, in conformity with the arc of the
>circle described by the pedals, the applied power of the rider, thus
>maintaining the full leverage of the crank over an increased arc of
>that circle, converting the straight push into an improved and
>automatic ankle motion. It is claimed to entirely obviate the 'dead
>center,' thus avoiding the hammer blow and back lash of the chain,
>developing more propelling power than can be obtained by the best
>ankle motion with the ordinary pedals. The pick-up of a Ramsey pedal
>is instantaneous, and momentum is gained at once; the pedal is always
>right side up, and consequently the toe-clip is always ready for the
>foot. With so little depth of pedal beneath the foot, the rider is
>enabled to sit nearer the ground without decreasing the distance
>between the ground and the pedal. Manufactured by the Ramsey Swinging
>Pedal Company, Philadelphia, Pa."
>
>Price, $5.00.
>
>"Outing" magazine, p. 104-5
>
>http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_32/outXXXII01/outXXXII01ze.pdf
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel
Here's a picture of an actual 1898 Ramsey Swinging Pedal:
http://www.speedplay.com/pedalmuseum/images/1898_ramsey_swinging.jpg
"The tread was offset below the axis for 'automatic ankle action, no
dead center . . . money refunded if Ramsey pedals do not enable you to
ascend hills with 25% less energy'."
Presumably the design was secretly banned by the UCI, since a 25%
power advantage from pedals would have bankrupted the drug companies.
You can see it with other pedals by browsing left and right on this
pedal history timeline:
http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pedalmuseum.quill
CF
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 12:14:30
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> Here is an interesting item:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
Adjustable crank length used in a sizing/fitting system
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 19 May 2007 18:35:07
From: Kinky Cowboy
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
On Sat, 19 May 2007 12:14:30 -0500, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> > Here is an interesting item:
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
>Adjustable crank length used in a sizing/fitting system
Seems unlikely, there are easier ways to make an adjustable length
crank.
I'm thinking maybe a system which puts the pedal spindle (rotational
axis) somewhat above the sole of your foot - a sort of negative stack
height.
Kinky Cowboy*
*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary
|
| |
Date: 19 May 2007 08:57:32
From: Carl Sundquist
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1179573680.686086.29480@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All,
>
> Here is an interesting item:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
They almost look like some sort of promotional gimmick for connecting rods.
|
| | |
Date: 19 May 2007 16:24:12
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
|
Dans le message de news:AnD3i.157592$jt2.70667@newsfe13.lga,
Carl Sundquist <carlsun@cox.net > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1179573680.686086.29480@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Here is an interesting item:
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>>
>> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>>
>
> They almost look like some sort of promotional gimmick for connecting
> rods.
First impression was manacles and bondage, but I have a headache, and today
is not going well.
--
Sandy
--
C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
-Delerm, P.
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Date: 19 May 2007 06:32:54
From:
Subject: Re: Funky crankset
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On May 19, 8:21 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Here is an interesting item:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280116183898
>
> I wonder what the theory is behind the design.
>
> Joseph
I reckon these cranks are from back in the 80s when i lot of new
cranks, chainwheels etc came out trying to improve on pedalling
efficiencies
Steve
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