bicycle-forum.net Promoting biking discussion.

Main Date: 21 Jun 2007 00:15:40 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Good wheels Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. What are your thoughts - about wheels I mean. Why I would want a stupid lugged steel frame is a question I've already answered for myself.   Date: 25 Jun 2007 05:30:03 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Michael Warner wrote: > > Haven't very wide arses gone out of cycling fashion? You should have > been a Pacific Islander :-) Mine is thriving in the cycling arena. It's clearly pass=E9 in budget air travel, though. Too bad I can't cycle to Samoa to work on my tan and pick up a nice lavalava in size XXXXL. Chalo   Date: 25 Jun 2007 05:24:37 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels landotter wrote: > > Chalo wrote: > > > > Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the > > cool width for a saddle forever. About the time that prospects are > > looking really grim, I bet the marketeers will decide that a saddle > > you can actually sit on is the new hotness. > > > One can always hope, anyway. > > Five inches is plenty for most male bones. I just hate the smooshy > padding which makes the hideous slot necessary. That assumes that the flesh compressed between the saddle and sit bones can deal with the implied pressure per area. What works for a rider of 130 lbs may not be just right at 350 lbs. That doesn't mean that a foam birthday cake in the approximate shape of a saddle is appropriate either. I just sat on a piece of styrofoam board. The deepest part of the indentations in the board are on 6" centers, but the depressed area is almost 11" wide. All of the saddles that have ever worked for me have been between these two dimensions in width. > ebay is a fine place to shop for saddles if you really want to give a > vintage vetta a shot. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Vetta-leather-saddle_W0QQitemZ30012267769... Unlike leather and steel, plastics don't age so well. I have problems tearing the rails out of plastic saddle noses even when they're fresh. But if I run across one that seems well preserved and doesn't cost too much, I may give it a try. Chalo     Date: 25 Jun 2007 14:16:00 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels Chalo wrote: -snip saddle- > That doesn't mean that a foam birthday cake > in the approximate shape of a saddle is appropriate either. > Chalo There is no better nor more colorful writing than RBT! Thanks! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971       Date: 25 Jun 2007 12:49:13 From: Bill Sornson Subject: Re: Good wheels A Muzi wrote: > There is no better nor more colorful writing than RBT! You put that real good.     Date: 25 Jun 2007 06:17:49 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 05:24:37 -0000, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote: >landotter wrote: >> >> Chalo wrote: >> > >> > Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the >> > cool width for a saddle forever. About the time that prospects are >> > looking really grim, I bet the marketeers will decide that a saddle >> > you can actually sit on is the new hotness. >> >> > One can always hope, anyway. >> >> Five inches is plenty for most male bones. I just hate the smooshy >> padding which makes the hideous slot necessary. > >That assumes that the flesh compressed between the saddle and sit >bones can deal with the implied pressure per area. What works for a >rider of 130 lbs may not be just right at 350 lbs. That doesn't mean >that a foam birthday cake in the approximate shape of a saddle is >appropriate either. When someone says "most" he's talking about "most" -- not about someoen whose size and shape is a far outside of "most". > I just sat on a piece of styrofoam board. > The deepest part of the > indentations in the board are on 6" centers, > but the depressed area is > almost 11" wide. Whether or not your remark above is useful depends at least in part in where you fall in terms of "most men." Is your body sized like most men? -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************   Date: 24 Jun 2007 15:08:28 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 24, 1:29 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote: > -snip- > > > Ozark Bicycle > >> I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? > Joe Bernard wrote: > > "Waterfords lacking" is too negative a reference. Instead of saying > > Waterfords don't "do it" for me, I should have said I've always wanted > > a custom Rivendell and nothing else will do. Waterford makes many > > excellent bikes, -snip- > > Rivendell's are Grant's design. Each Waterford is completely to _your_ > design, suggested basic geometries are considered a 'starting point'. > More, Waterford's palette is several hundred hues wide and, yes, custom > lug cuts are available. A recent Waterford here was pink with red heart > cutouts in the lugs. Here's a nice example of lug cuts:http://waterfordbikes.com/site/tech/dwflame.php > > Waterfords run 3 to 5 weeks, exactly as you request. > > -- > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org > Open every day since 1 April, 1971 As I stated, Waterfords are fine bicycles. I like Grant's designs. I love my Romulus and want a lighter version. I want it to be red. Rivendells come in red. Are you saying I shouldn't want the bike I want?     Date: 24 Jun 2007 21:54:56 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels >> -snip- >>> Ozark Bicycle >>>> I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? >> Joe Bernard wrote: >>> "Waterfords lacking" is too negative a reference. Instead of saying >>> Waterfords don't "do it" for me, I should have said I've always wanted >>> a custom Rivendell and nothing else will do. Waterford makes many >>> excellent bikes, -snip- > A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >> Rivendell's are Grant's design. Each Waterford is completely to _your_ >> design, suggested basic geometries are considered a 'starting point'. >> More, Waterford's palette is several hundred hues wide and, yes, custom >> lug cuts are available. A recent Waterford here was pink with red heart >> cutouts in the lugs. Here's a nice example of lug cuts:http://waterfordbikes.com/site/tech/dwflame.php >> Waterfords run 3 to 5 weeks, exactly as you request. Joe Bernard wrote: > As I stated, Waterfords are fine bicycles. I like Grant's designs. I > love my Romulus and want a lighter version. I want it to be red. > Rivendells come in red. Are you saying I shouldn't want the bike I > want? Nope, not at all. I often note that no one can be wrong about his own opinion. Just expanding on the available choices. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971   Date: 24 Jun 2007 13:04:02 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 24, 2:49 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > A Muzi wrote: > > > Both Avocet and Vetta sold Selle Italia brand saddles, rebadged, at > > one time. > > Not only has Selle Italia discontinued those nice ample designs, the > > American remarketers discovered that a feature-laden Chinese lump of > > plastic can cost less and sell for more, hence our modern world with > > it's dismal choices. At least Brooks fit some riders, after that, what? > > Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the > cool width for a saddle forever. About the time that prospects are > looking really grim, I bet the marketeers will decide that a saddle > you can actually sit on is the new hotness. > > One can always hope, anyway. Five inches is plenty for most male bones. I just hate the smooshy padding which makes the hideous slot necessary. ebay is a fine place to shop for saddles if you really want to give a vintage vetta a shot. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Vetta-leather-saddle_W0QQitemZ300122677697QQihZ020QQcategoryZ106951QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem   Date: 24 Jun 2007 19:49:18 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels A Muzi wrote: > > Both Avocet and Vetta sold Selle Italia brand saddles, rebadged, at > one time. > Not only has Selle Italia discontinued those nice ample designs, the > American remarketers discovered that a feature-laden Chinese lump of > plastic can cost less and sell for more, hence our modern world with > it's dismal choices. At least Brooks fit some riders, after that, what? Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the cool width for a saddle forever. About the time that prospects are looking really grim, I bet the marketeers will decide that a saddle you can actually sit on is the new hotness. One can always hope, anyway. Chalo     Date: 25 Jun 2007 09:01:11 From: Michael Warner Subject: Re: Good wheels On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 19:49:18 -0000, Chalo wrote: > Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the > cool width for a saddle forever. Haven't very wide arses gone out of cycling fashion? You should have been a Pacific Islander :-) -- Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw   Date: 24 Jun 2007 03:14:21 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 9:45 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > >> just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > >> accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > >> disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > >> Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > >> a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > >> good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > >> $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > >> handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > >> wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > landotter wrote: > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > I've been unavoidably away from RBT and just got back - Thanks for a > hearty laugh, Landotter! > Thank *you* for your generous wisdom, future and past.   Date: 24 Jun 2007 03:12:42 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 9:45 am, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >> Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > >> just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > >> accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > >> disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > >> Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > >> a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > >> good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > >> $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > >> handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > >> wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > landotter wrote: > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > I've been unavoidably away from RBT and just got back - Thanks for a > hearty laugh, Landotter! > > -- > Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org > Open every day since 1 April, 1971   Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:36:53 From: Chris Nelson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 1:34 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > > this year. > > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > > redness. > > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > > must obey. > > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > > bikes came about because of him. > > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > exactly make a trend. > > And speaking of wheels[!], anybody run Easton Circuits? > > Joe- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Dayum, the "plush/cool" category has been cornered. These guys really did have you pegged from post #1. Amazing. Chris     Date: 24 Jun 2007 03:02:37 From: Subject: Re: Good wheels Chris Nelson writes: >>>>> - Show quoted text - >>> - Show quoted text - >> - Show quoted text - I'm not clear to what this phrase is referring. In response to my post recently it also appeared although all text was present. Please explain. Jobst Brandt   Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:15:36 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 5:49 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 12:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 11:51 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > > > -- > > > > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > > > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > > > ride and durability of steel. > > > > > Joe > > > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm > > > going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- > > > rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me > > > and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing > > > under 20 lbs. > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > > > PX-10, > > > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) > > Ideale? OUCH!- I like my Ideale 92; it's perfect fo my '75ish Motobecane. OTOH, it is no more comfortable than my Regals or even my one San Marco Lazer.   Date: 23 Jun 2007 22:49:37 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 12:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 11:51 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > > -- > > > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > > ride and durability of steel. > > > > Joe > > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm > > going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- > > rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me > > and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing > > under 20 lbs. > > > I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > > PX-10, > > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) Ideale? OUCH!   Date: 23 Jun 2007 15:23:48 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 5:15 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote: > -snip- > > > Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > >> I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > >> PX-10, > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) > > Peugeot shipped the bike with a Brooks Pro > It's not a matter of "authenticity", it's "Frenchness" (and was meant in jest).   Date: 23 Jun 2007 10:52:05 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 12:34 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > > this year. > > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > > redness. > > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > > must obey. > > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > > bikes came about because of him. > > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > exactly make a trend. Enjoy your RivenSchtick and your myopia.   Date: 23 Jun 2007 10:34:50 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > this year. > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > redness. > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > must obey. > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > bikes came about because of him. > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't exactly make a trend. And speaking of wheels[!], anybody run Easton Circuits? Joe     Date: 24 Jun 2007 17:32:12 From: Peter Cole Subject: Re: Good wheels Joe Bernard wrote: > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > exactly make a trend. I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I like the idea of being able to use them at my option. I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant).       Date: 27 Jun 2007 23:19:46 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > Ozark Bicycle > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie "One little thing can revive a guy, and that is a piece of rhubarb pie; Serve it up, nice and hot; Maybe things aren't as bad as you thought." The passive aggressiveness is is a Scandihoovian thing, we learn it from a young age.         Date: 27 Jun 2007 16:35:05 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182986386.586148.29140@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. > "One > little thing can revive a guy, and that is a piece of rhubarb pie; > Serve it up, nice and hot; Maybe things aren't as bad as you thought." > > The passive aggressiveness is is a Scandihoovian thing, we learn it > from a young age. -- Michael Press       Date: 27 Jun 2007 15:34:31 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > Ozark Bicycle > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > A future Riv model: The Guy Noir, a city bike. Available in Powdermilk Blue or Rhubarb Pie Red.       Date: 27 Jun 2007 00:56:58 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 12:07 am, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 27, 1:53 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 10:14 pm, Johnny Sunset wrote: > > > > On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > ... > > > > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > > > > > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > > > > > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > > > > > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > > > > > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > > > > > now. > > > > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > > > > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > > > > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > > > > > Regarding your trials, you need to take care of > > > > yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or > > > > a something you have on your list. You are wise to > > > > involve yourself with others. > > > > Trials should be born in stoic silence. > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Stoic silence? You should try it. > > gnaww [1], this it too much fun. Especially the religious flame wars > over Mavic rims, compact geometry frames, brifters on non-racing > bicycles, 650B wheels, etc, > > [1] Gratuitous gdanielsism. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Holler all you want about that stuff. I thought you were going after me for mentioning my "trials" which, for the record, aren't actually mine, but, my friend's. I'm bummed about it, of course, but it ain't about me, know what I mean? Sorry if I misunderstood you.       Date: 25 Jun 2007 02:20:46 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <uvqdnSEyYrFAf-PbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@comcast.com >, Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net > wrote: > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > exactly make a trend. > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). Not entirely. Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. 450 mm chain stay, 71 degree head tube and seat tube, 65 mm chain stay drop racing bicycle: 622 wheels. 390 mm chain stay, 74 degree head tube and seat tube, 72 mm chain stay drop -- Michael Press         Date: 25 Jun 2007 09:26:21 From: Peter Cole Subject: Re: Good wheels Michael Press wrote: > In article > <uvqdnSEyYrFAf-PbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@comcast.com>, > Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote: > >> Joe Bernard wrote: >> >>> And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool >>> road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are >>> purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- >>> braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own >>> category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought >>> low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I >>> don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten >>> years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't >>> exactly make a trend. >> I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have >> frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", >> the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems >> that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays >> as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. >> >> Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. >> Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach >> sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for >> things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I >> like the idea of being able to use them at my option. >> >> I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > Not entirely. > > Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. 450 mm chain stay, 71 degree head tube and seat tube, > 65 mm chain stay drop > > racing bicycle: 622 wheels. 390 mm chain stay, 74 degree head tube and seat tube, > 72 mm chain stay drop > This topic comes up every so often. From a post a few years ago: If we look at concrete examples, say a current Cannondale touring frame, and a similar size racing frame (T2000 vs. R1000, size J vs. 63cm) we see the following: HT: racer = 73.5 deg, tourer = 73 rake: racer = 4.5cm, tourer = 5.3 ST: racer = 72 deg, tourer = 72.5 TT: racer = 60cm, tourer = 59.7 WB: racer = 101.2, tourer = 108 CS: racer = 40.8, tourer = 45.7 The usual claim is that "touring" frames are "sluggish", or something like that. Generally, touring bikes have less trail, and lower BB's, which makes them more responsive, not less. In reality, the differences are tiny. The only significant difference is chain stay length, which is shortened beyond reason on "racing" bikes purely for looks. It all comes down to marketing. As for wheel size, perhaps 26" wheels are popular in some segment of the touring community, but the context of this thread was comparing current "racing" bikes to the "sports touring" bikes of decades past. I don't recall any of them having 26" wheels.           Date: 26 Jun 2007 00:24:04 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <HdadnSqYuIrjX-LbnZ2dnUVZ_uWlnZ2d@comcast.com >, Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net > wrote: > Michael Press wrote: > > In article > > <uvqdnSEyYrFAf-PbnZ2dnUVZ_rWnnZ2d@comcast.com>, > > Peter Cole <peter_cole@comcast.net> wrote: > > > >> Joe Bernard wrote: > >> > >>> And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > >>> road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > >>> purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > >>> braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > >>> category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > >>> low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > >>> don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > >>> years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > >>> exactly make a trend. > >> I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > >> frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > >> the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > >> that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > >> as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > >> > >> Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > >> Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > >> sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > >> things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > >> like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > >> > >> I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > Not entirely. > > > > Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. 450 mm chain stay, 71 degree head tube and seat tube, > > 65 mm chain stay drop > > > > racing bicycle: 622 wheels. 390 mm chain stay, 74 degree head tube and seat tube, > > 72 mm chain stay drop > > > > This topic comes up every so often. From a post a few years ago: > > If we look at concrete examples, say a current Cannondale touring frame, > and a similar size racing frame (T2000 vs. R1000, size J vs. 63cm) we see > the following: > > HT: racer = 73.5 deg, tourer = 73 > rake: racer = 4.5cm, tourer = 5.3 > ST: racer = 72 deg, tourer = 72.5 > TT: racer = 60cm, tourer = 59.7 > > WB: racer = 101.2, tourer = 108 > CS: racer = 40.8, tourer = 45.7 > > The usual claim is that "touring" frames are "sluggish", or something > like that. Generally, touring bikes have less trail, and lower BB's, > which makes them more responsive, not less. In reality, the differences > are tiny. The only significant difference is chain stay length, which is > shortened beyond reason on "racing" bikes purely for looks. It all comes > down to marketing. > > As for wheel size, perhaps 26" wheels are popular in some segment of the > touring community, but the context of this thread was comparing current > "racing" bikes to the "sports touring" bikes of decades past. I don't > recall any of them having 26" wheels. Many current loaded touring bicyclists use 26" wheels. I own this classic sports-tourer. Seat tube 550 mm Top tube 560 Wheel base 1035 Chain stay 450 Chain stay drop 71 Bottom bracket height 283 Fork offset 55 Ground Trail 60 Effective Trail 57 Head tube angle 71.5 deg Seat tube angle 71.5 Considerable space for mudguards and 630 wheels. -- Michael Press   Date: 23 Jun 2007 07:46:42 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > this year. > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > redness. > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > must obey. > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > bikes came about because of him. > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.     Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:38:49 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 8:17 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote: > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > news:1182893123.266857.144570@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 4:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > >>news:1182888175.374843.152610@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > >> > On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in > >> >> message > > >> >>news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in > >> >> >> message > > >> >> >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! > >> >> >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) > > >> >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, > > >> >> > It's a couple of things. > > >> >> > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the > >> >> > Google > >> >> > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. > > >> >> > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) > >> >> > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in > >> >> > favor > >> >> > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the > >> >> > slippery > >> >> > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new > >> >> > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same > >> >> > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) > > >> >> >> I met Grant Peterson, > >> >> >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> he's > >> >> >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've > >> >> >> talked > >> >> >> to > >> >> >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, > >> >> >> Brian > >> >> >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's > >> >> >> not > >> >> >> like > >> >> >> they're making tons of money at this. > > >> >> > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a > >> >> > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement > >> >> > and > >> >> > calling it ice cream. YMMV. > > >> >> I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone > >> >> Bicycles. > > >> > ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much? > >> > We'll never know. > > >> >>Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting > >> >> with. > >> >> I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". > > >> > So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, > >> > etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that? > > >> Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman > >> like > >> Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson > >> has. > >> It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so I'm > >> surprised you asked that. > > > Your answer shows *exactly* why I asked the question. The answer is > > that, upon reflection, you decided you had Peterson in the wrong > > company, right?(IMO, putting Peterson in with folks like Eisentraut, > > BG, Richard Sachs, etc., does them a disservice.) > > Joe Bell isn't in the class of Eisentraut or Sachs either, I didn't hear > you mention his name. I'm sure you have a point here??? > These were just a list of some of the people whom I > spoke with about their interest in bicycling. Grant Peterson had good ideas > just as Scott Nicol had for Ibis Cycles. Can't knock a man for fulfilling > his dreams. Has Grant Peterson done anything to you? Or bad-mouthed > Ozark Bicycles? Rivendell is a bike frame reseller; IOW, a business like any other. I think their current direction does their potential customers a disservice, so I call bullshit when I see it. Grant Peterson doesn't seem to have problems lobbing a few grenades at alot of the rest of the bike industry. The folksy, passive aggressive tone doesn't alter that fact.       Date: 27 Jun 2007 15:22:53 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182951529.189692.247850@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > The folksy, passive aggressive > tone doesn't alter that fact. Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. -- Michael Press       Date: 27 Jun 2007 07:19:58 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message news:1182951529.189692.247850@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 27, 8:17 am, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1182893123.266857.144570@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 4:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in >> >> message >> >> >>news:1182888175.374843.152610@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in >> >> >> message >> >> >> >>news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> message >> >> >> >> >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! >> >> >> >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) >> >> >> >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, >> >> >> >> > It's a couple of things. >> >> >> >> > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the >> >> >> > Google >> >> >> > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. >> >> >> >> > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) >> >> >> > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in >> >> >> > favor >> >> >> > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the >> >> >> > slippery >> >> >> > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new >> >> >> > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the >> >> >> > same >> >> >> > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) >> >> >> >> >> I met Grant Peterson, >> >> >> >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle >> >> >> >> company, >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> he's >> >> >> >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've >> >> >> >> talked >> >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, >> >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's >> >> >> >> not >> >> >> >> like >> >> >> >> they're making tons of money at this. >> >> >> >> > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company >> >> >> > as a >> >> >> > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > calling it ice cream. YMMV. >> >> >> >> I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with >> >> >> Bridgestone >> >> >> Bicycles. >> >> >> > ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How >> >> > much? >> >> > We'll never know. >> >> >> >>Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting >> >> >> with. >> >> >> I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". >> >> >> > So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, >> >> > etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that? >> >> >> Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman >> >> like >> >> Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson >> >> has. >> >> It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so >> >> I'm >> >> surprised you asked that. >> >> > Your answer shows *exactly* why I asked the question. The answer is >> > that, upon reflection, you decided you had Peterson in the wrong >> > company, right?(IMO, putting Peterson in with folks like Eisentraut, >> > BG, Richard Sachs, etc., does them a disservice.) >> >> Joe Bell isn't in the class of Eisentraut or Sachs either, I didn't hear >> you mention his name. > > I'm sure you have a point here??? > > >> These were just a list of some of the people whom I >> spoke with about their interest in bicycling. Grant Peterson had good >> ideas >> just as Scott Nicol had for Ibis Cycles. Can't knock a man for fulfilling >> his dreams. Has Grant Peterson done anything to you? Or bad-mouthed >> Ozark Bicycles? > > Rivendell is a bike frame reseller; IOW, a business like any other. I > think their current direction does their potential customers a > disservice, so I call bullshit when I see it. Rivendell has their followers, just has Richard Sachs, Eisentraut, and Ibis Cycles, etc. Granted their bicycles are different from most of today's standards. To me this is one of the things that makes cycling interesting. When I visited the Handmade frames Show in San Jose this year it was nice to see some of the great master craftsman. One thing I noticed besides the unique frames and bicycles, they all had respect for one-another. -tom > > Grant Peterson doesn't seem to have problems lobbing a few grenades at > alot of the rest of the bike industry. The folksy, passive aggressive > tone doesn't alter that fact. > >     Date: 27 Jun 2007 00:07:30 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 1:53 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > On Jun 26, 10:14 pm, Johnny Sunset wrote: > > > On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > ... > > > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > > > > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > > > > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > > > > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > > > > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > > > > now. > > > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > > > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > > > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > > > > Regarding your trials, you need to take care of > > > yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or > > > a something you have on your list. You are wise to > > > involve yourself with others. > > > Trials should be born in stoic silence. > > > - Show quoted text - > > Stoic silence? You should try it. gnaww [1], this it too much fun. Especially the religious flame wars over Mavic rims, compact geometry frames, brifters on non-racing bicycles, 650B wheels, etc, [1] Gratuitous gdanielsism. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful     Date: 26 Jun 2007 23:53:39 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 10:14 pm, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > ... > > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > > > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > > > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > > > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > > > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > > > now. > > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > > > Regarding your trials, you need to take care of > > yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or > > a something you have on your list. You are wise to > > involve yourself with others. > > Trials should be born in stoic silence. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Stoic silence? You should try it.     Date: 26 Jun 2007 22:15:41 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 12:03 am, Hank Wirtz wrote: > On Jun 26, 9:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: > ... > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > > I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I > can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from > flopping around. I can do that with my heel. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful       Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:22:17 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 22:15:41 -0700, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: >On Jun 27, 12:03 am, Hank Wirtz wrote: >> On Jun 26, 9:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: >> ... >> > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip >> > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional >> > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. >> >> I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I >> can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from >> flopping around. > >I can do that with my heel. LOL -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************   Date: 23 Jun 2007 12:33:38 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > Callistus Valerius wrote: > > > > I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to > > get use to it. > > That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If > this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a > box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a > couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they? Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down. I wouldn't give an uncomfortable saddle that long an interview, but the leather ones do change for the better over time. You wouldn't toss a pair of $300 mountaineering boots because they were hard and uncomfortable at first, would you? Chalo   Date: 23 Jun 2007 04:27:33 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 5:49 am, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com > wrote: > > Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm > > narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm > > center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit > > about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted > > to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the > > same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros, > > which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are. > > > Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me. > > Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful about > > inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something > > that is all too common in human nature. > > ---------- > I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to > get use to it. That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they? > One thing it's hard to set up, and people should know that > before they buy one, that the fore and aft movement is tiny, so I had to buy > an FSA seatpost with some serious setback to make it work. Also it's > extremely slick, so that gets some getting use to, I don't know if that goes > away or not. Also someone commented that there weren't enough riding > positions on it, I find the opposite, too many. But my riding style is > unorthodox, as I'm always moving around on a saddle. On my prolink I had > two positions, front, back, on the brooks I have four, with middle-back, > middle forward. My big concern is a rain ride. It doesn't rain much here > in the desert, but when it does it's usually a downpour, and if I was > unlucky to be caught in such a situation, how do Brooks hold up in big rain > (not just a sprinkle).   Date: 23 Jun 2007 03:40:31 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 12:54 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> > , > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some > > folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their > > catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must > > obey. > > Oh no, you ride it because that is what you _want_ to > ride. If you would simply attend the meetings, this > would all be made clear to you, brother. > And, if time and distance keep you from the meetings, there is always The Reader to keep you on the straight and narrow.   Date: 23 Jun 2007 05:56:16 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:57 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182525535.453357.42...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > > > >inconsistent. > > > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and > > > > you'll have a lifetime companion. > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks, > > > either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for > > > you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a > > > ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's > > > favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). > > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and > > waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never > > comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one > > place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There > > is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. > > You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your > > urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously-- > > I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple > > months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging > > it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it > > on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is. > > Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or > > two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even > > funny. > > You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded. I've ridden the things thousand of miles and have specific complaints which are based in reality. What are you smoking?     Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:33:20 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182578176.631916.64060@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 10:57 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article <1182525535.453357.42...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a > > > > Brooks, either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just > > > > not the saddle for you. I find the Brooks Pro to be > > > > comfortable out of the box, maybe a ride or three is necessary > > > > to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's favorite saddle > > > > (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). > > > > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer > > > and waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, > > > but never comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There > > > is only one place of a single square cm for each ischia to find > > > comfort in. There is the idiotic rail in back with the double > > > idiotic exposed rivets. You either slide forward, or tilt up the > > > horn enough to ovalize your urethra. Firmness changes according > > > to the day's humidity. Seriously-- I'm at the point where I hate > > > these things. I tried for a couple months to get rid of my last > > > Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging it on Craigslist for > > > very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it on my beer bike > > > to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is. Well designed > > > nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or two and > > > some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even funny. > > > > You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded. > > I've ridden the things thousand of miles and have specific complaints > which are based in reality. What are you smoking? Why is this even a discussion, let along an argument. Brooks saddles don't work for landotter (and many others), end of the issue there. Brooks saddles work fine for me (and many others), end of issue on that side. The problem comes when we confuse our personal experiences for universal ones and make categorical judgments based on that. Maybe that part of the discussion is actually the problem, not the realities of saddles.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 23:23:36 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182578176.631916.64060@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 10:57 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article > > <1182525535.453357.42...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > > > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > > > > >inconsistent. > > > > > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and > > > > > you'll have a lifetime companion. > > > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks, > > > > either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for > > > > you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a > > > > ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's > > > > favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). > > > > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and > > > waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never > > > comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one > > > place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There > > > is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. > > > You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your > > > urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously-- > > > I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple > > > months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging > > > it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it > > > on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is. > > > Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or > > > two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even > > > funny. > > > > You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded. > > I've ridden the things thousand of miles and have specific complaints > which are based in reality. What are you smoking? You. You have your experience. These generalizations you make from your experience are invalid. It is important to distinguish your experience from things that are not your experience. There is no science in the generalizations you make, only your experience. -- Michael Press   Date: 22 Jun 2007 22:38:36 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:05 pm, Ozark Bicycle wrote: > ...However, IMO, most of the RivenSchticks look 'forced' and > 'faux' to me, like a cheap 'repli-car' (remember those fake MG T- > series bodies mounted on VeeDub pans?). The Cutsey poo names (Saluki?... You are not welcome in Carbondale, Illinois. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful   Date: 22 Jun 2007 22:06:37 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > about certain bits of gear. > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > this year. > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > redness. > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > must obey. > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride bikes came about because of him. Joe   Date: 22 Jun 2007 21:28:38 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 9:03 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182542949.414320.150...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> > , > > Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing bike > > saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable plastic > > saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. They look cool > > and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness stuff from which they > > are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike messengers are using them. If > > that's what you can buy to get an 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped > > like a pie with a snout and isn't overly squishy, so be it. > > Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, > but now I am seeing them regularly again. > Is this the hobbit effect? > > -- > Michael Press I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT Cruiser/ New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie effect, which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing itself. Of course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care for, something got lost in translation.     Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:15:12 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182572918.328675.126410@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com >, Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 22, 9:03 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article <1182542949.414320.150...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> > > , > > > > Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing > > > bike saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable > > > plastic saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. > > > They look cool and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness > > > stuff from which they are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike > > > messengers are using them. If that's what you can buy to get an > > > 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped like a pie with a snout and > > > isn't overly squishy, so be it. > > > > Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, but now I am seeing them > > regularly again. Is this the hobbit effect? > > > > -- Michael Press > > I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT > Cruiser/ New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie > effect, which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing > itself. Of course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care > for, something got lost in translation. There's something complicated about caring for Brooks saddles? Have I missed out? I mean I rub some leather treatment on it once a year or so but I'd hardly call that un-simple. And I put a plastic bag over it if I get caught in the rain but again that's not exactly complicated. What am I missing out on?       Date: 24 Jun 2007 18:30:34 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels >>> Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing >>>> bike saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable >>>> plastic saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. >>>> They look cool and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness >>>> stuff from which they are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike >>>> messengers are using them. If that's what you can buy to get an >>>> 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped like a pie with a snout and >>>> isn't overly squishy, so be it. >> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: >>> Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, but now I am seeing them >>> regularly again. Is this the hobbit effect? > Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT >> Cruiser/ New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie >> effect, which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing >> itself. Of course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care >> for, something got lost in translation. Tim McNamara wrote: > There's something complicated about caring for Brooks saddles? Have I > missed out? I mean I rub some leather treatment on it once a year or so > but I'd hardly call that un-simple. And I put a plastic bag over it if > I get caught in the rain but again that's not exactly complicated. What > am I missing out on? As long as I've been around bicycles the wackiest advice about leather saddles comes from people who have never ridden or owned one (baseball bats, hot oil and on, ad absurdum). -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971     Date: 23 Jun 2007 10:56:33 From: Callistus Valerius Subject: Re: Good wheels > > Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, > > but now I am seeing them regularly again. > > Is this the hobbit effect? > > > > -- > > Michael Press > > I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT Cruiser/ > New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie effect, > which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing itself. Of > course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care for, > something got lost in translation. --------- In my case it was when I started doing long-distance riding (<150 miles), and started getting bad saddle sores. That's when you start seriously looking for a solution. Maybe people get them also for century rides, if you're seeing a lot of them. One woman told me, that a bike shop told her it was a solution to the age-old butt soreness problem. But that may be an overkill, as it takes a few years to get your butt use to a bike at any distance.       Date: 23 Jun 2007 10:45:39 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <B%6fi.224$zA4.68@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote: > > > Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, > > > but now I am seeing them regularly again. > > > Is this the hobbit effect? > > > > > > -- > > > Michael Press > > > > I kinda doubt it. I think it's parallel to the New Beetle/ PT Cruiser/ > > New '69 Mustang effect, and it's in tandem with the fixie effect, > > which is kind of a retro back-to-the-simple-days thing itself. Of > > course, Brooks saddles being anything but simple to care for, > > something got lost in translation. > --------- > In my case it was when I started doing long-distance riding (<150 miles), > and started getting bad saddle sores. That's when you start seriously > looking for a solution. Maybe people get them also for century rides, if > you're seeing a lot of them. One woman told me, that a bike shop told her > it was a solution to the age-old butt soreness problem. But that may be an > overkill, as it takes a few years to get your butt use to a bike at any > distance. I do not go long distance. Have always used a stretched leather saddle, so I cannot compare them with anything else. I like the shock absorbing quality. -- Michael Press         Date: 23 Jun 2007 20:36:34 From: Callistus Valerius Subject: Re: Good wheels > > In my case it was when I started doing long-distance riding (<150 miles), > > and started getting bad saddle sores. That's when you start seriously > > looking for a solution. Maybe people get them also for century rides, if > > you're seeing a lot of them. One woman told me, that a bike shop told her > > it was a solution to the age-old butt soreness problem. But that may be an > > overkill, as it takes a few years to get your butt use to a bike at any > > distance. > > I do not go long distance. Have always used a stretched > leather saddle, so I cannot compare them with anything > else. I like the shock absorbing quality. > > -- > Michael Press ======== There is no doubt it's a different type of saddle, and I went out this morning, and moved it back 1/4 of an inch, lowered the back of it a little, and voila it felt just right. There is a weight penalty, you must admit, but the comfort part is worth it.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 20:19:30 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 7:59 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 22, 5:38 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 5:17 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > You might want to look into Waterford as an > > > > > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seems like it might be more up your > > > > alley.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Waterfords just don't do it for me. > > > I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? > > > > I have a Rivendell Romulus > > > [production level Riv] which I'm very happy with. The only things I > > > would change is to carve up the lugs > > > "carve up the lugs"? To change them in what way? > > > > and take a weight weenie stick to > > > it, which is how the custom will work out. > > > What do you have in mind? > > > > I'll keep the Rom around > > > and treat it like a mountain bike. That thing is waaay overbuilt for a > > > little guy like me. > > > > Joe- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > "Waterfords lacking" is too negative a reference. Instead of saying > Waterfords don't "do it" for me, I should have said I've always wanted > a custom Rivendell and nothing else will do. Waterford makes many > excellent bikes, including Gunnar, and if my bike boat ever comes in > I'll be more than happy to add one of each to my collection....and a > Rene Herse, and a carbon Merckx, a Moulton, maybe a nice RANS.... > > "Carving up lugs" means taking some metal out, dabbing some > contrasting paint in the spaces and just in general arting them up a > bit. And yes I know TIG is lighter, but if I was solely devoted to > lightness in a frame, I'd get that carbon Merckx. > > The "weight weenie stick" will be applied with Deda Zero superlight > tubing and lightweight wheels primarily. I won't have the budget for > the full ti and carbon job in the components, but I'll do what I can. > > As for the "wait 'til the Hobbits see it" comment that someone else > offered, that's half the fun. Hey, maybe some day I'll put friction > shifters, a Brooks saddle and canvas saddlebags on a Merckx. That > would be awesome!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - No offense intended against the Hobbits, by the way. I clearly am one, and have been since discovering the Bstone RB- and XO-1 back in the day. My first new bike was an XO-3. Moustache bars! Joe   Date: 22 Jun 2007 20:05:28 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 9:42 pm, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0...@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 11:26 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 10:54 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > > ride and durability of steel. > > > I couldn't agree more! You might want to look into Waterford as an > > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seem like it might be more up your > > alley. > > I have never found ornamentation attractive - Mies van de Rohe could > not have been more correct when he said "less is more". I find TIG > welded Gunnars more attractive than Waterfords, I don't care for most welded frames - too industrial looking, more farm equipment than bicycle. > and have never cared > for fancy lug-work. Nor did I, until ~10 years ago. Now, I think it can look good on the right frame. However, IMO, most of the RivenSchticks look 'forced' and 'faux' to me, like a cheap 'repli-car' (remember those fake MG T- series bodies mounted on VeeDub pans?). The Cutsey poo names (Saluki? Homer Hilson? GMAFB!) and over-the-top head badges complete the unfortunate picture. > > However, I do like the C. Itoh Kabuki Submariner frames attractive, > where the plain lugs contrast nicely with the stainless steel tubes. >   Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:59:32 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 5:38 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 5:17 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > You might want to look into Waterford as an > > > > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seems like it might be more up your > > > alley.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Waterfords just don't do it for me. > > I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? > > > I have a Rivendell Romulus > > [production level Riv] which I'm very happy with. The only things I > > would change is to carve up the lugs > > "carve up the lugs"? To change them in what way? > > > and take a weight weenie stick to > > it, which is how the custom will work out. > > What do you have in mind? > > > > > I'll keep the Rom around > > and treat it like a mountain bike. That thing is waaay overbuilt for a > > little guy like me. > > > Joe- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - "Waterfords lacking" is too negative a reference. Instead of saying Waterfords don't "do it" for me, I should have said I've always wanted a custom Rivendell and nothing else will do. Waterford makes many excellent bikes, including Gunnar, and if my bike boat ever comes in I'll be more than happy to add one of each to my collection....and a Rene Herse, and a carbon Merckx, a Moulton, maybe a nice RANS.... "Carving up lugs" means taking some metal out, dabbing some contrasting paint in the spaces and just in general arting them up a bit. And yes I know TIG is lighter, but if I was solely devoted to lightness in a frame, I'd get that carbon Merckx. The "weight weenie stick" will be applied with Deda Zero superlight tubing and lightweight wheels primarily. I won't have the budget for the full ti and carbon job in the components, but I'll do what I can. As for the "wait 'til the Hobbits see it" comment that someone else offered, that's half the fun. Hey, maybe some day I'll put friction shifters, a Brooks saddle and canvas saddlebags on a Merckx. That would be awesome!     Date: 24 Jun 2007 15:29:08 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels -snip- > Ozark Bicycle >> I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? Joe Bernard wrote: > "Waterfords lacking" is too negative a reference. Instead of saying > Waterfords don't "do it" for me, I should have said I've always wanted > a custom Rivendell and nothing else will do. Waterford makes many > excellent bikes, -snip- Rivendell's are Grant's design. Each Waterford is completely to _your_ design, suggested basic geometries are considered a 'starting point'. More, Waterford's palette is several hundred hues wide and, yes, custom lug cuts are available. A recent Waterford here was pink with red heart cutouts in the lugs. Here's a nice example of lug cuts: http://waterfordbikes.com/site/tech/dwflame.php Waterfords run 3 to 5 weeks, exactly as you request. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971   Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:52:44 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 3:09 pm, Chalo Colina wrote: > ... > I ride a couple of B90-3 saddles, no longer in production. I'm not > enamored of their overdone springiness, and I would be glad to opt out > of their nearly 5-pound weight.... Some of my recumbent seats weigh less than that! -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful   Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:48:38 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 1:10 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: > ... > Should be "doable." After all, my wife's 53 cm Heron (a former > Rivendell spin-off company) weighs barely over 20 lbs with a steel fork > and "retro" components (Superbe crank, derailleurs, brakes and > freewheel; Phil hubs, 32 or 36 spokes, MA2 rims; 700 x 28 tires; Brooks > Pro S saddle; Nitto bars and stem). Todd Kuzma managed to get his Heron > down to 16 lbs or something like that- not bad for a bike made from > Reynolds 531.... Whatever happened to Todd - he used to be a RBT regular? -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful     Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:13:13 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182566918.499354.129280@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 1:10 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: > > ... Should be "doable." After all, my wife's 53 cm Heron (a former > > Rivendell spin-off company) weighs barely over 20 lbs with a steel > > fork and "retro" components (Superbe crank, derailleurs, brakes and > > freewheel; Phil hubs, 32 or 36 spokes, MA2 rims; 700 x 28 tires; > > Brooks Pro S saddle; Nitto bars and stem). Todd Kuzma managed to > > get his Heron down to 16 lbs or something like that- not bad for a > > bike made from Reynolds 531.... > > Whatever happened to Todd - he used to be a RBT regular? He seemed to have dropped off the Usenet circuit, as far as I know. I stopped reading the iBOB list after an outbreak of nastygrams a few years ago (I know, the irony), so I don't know if he still participates in that. He's still got his business website up and running: http://www.tullios.com/index.htm and a blog: http://www.tullios.blogspot.com/   Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:42:57 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 11:26 am, Ozark Bicycle wrote: > On Jun 22, 10:54 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > ride and durability of steel. > > I couldn't agree more! You might want to look into Waterford as an > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seem like it might be more up your > alley. I have never found ornamentation attractive - Mies van de Rohe could not have been more correct when he said "less is more". I find TIG welded Gunnars more attractive than Waterfords, and have never cared for fancy lug-work. However, I do like the C. Itoh Kabuki Submariner frames attractive, where the plain lugs contrast nicely with the stainless steel tubes. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful   Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:17:21 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:54 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > drivetrain with brifters. > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. I would dearly love to have a modern high performance car with Datsun B-210 "Honey Bee" bodywork. :) > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > ride and durability of steel. I would love to see the look on the faces of the "Hobbits" when someone commits "heresy" with a Rivendell Frame. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful     Date: 22 Jun 2007 23:56:45 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182565041.399190.78890@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, Johnny Sunset <sunsetss0003@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 10:54 am, Joe Bernard wrote: > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on > > > the back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the > > > skinniest Ti-rail saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would > > > also have a ten-speed drivetrain with brifters. <snip > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to > > run friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's > > just a frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got > > into road bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged > > steel with whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed > > Dura-Ace STI. I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty > > lugs and the ride and durability of steel. > > I would love to see the look on the faces of the "Hobbits" when > someone commits "heresy" with a Rivendell Frame. Too late, it's been done and there are photos on the Web somewhere. Looked kinda silly to me- that clunky fat CF stuff contrasting weirdly with a nice lugged frame- but hey, it's not my bike. Whatever makes you happy to ride.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 18:12:28 From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 7:47 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <1182441937.298352.37...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, > > > and just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently > > > y'all are accustomed to being called retards over here. My > > > developementally disabled clients might have a bone to pick with > > > that diagnosis! Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is > > > rapidly evolving into a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. > > > I think I've got a pretty good idea what the opinions of "Kry > > > Syriums" are, but what about other $500.00-and-under pre-builts? > > > Although I'm leaning toward traditional handbuilts, which would be > > > expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke wheels might be an > > > interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > It's hard to tell if you are trying to make a point here and, if so, > what it might be. > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > There's something wrong with Tressostar? It and similar products have > been in use for a long time and work fine. Maybe you preferred the > Grab-On foam handlebar covers that were so popular in the late 1970s. I > installed a lot of that crap on Ross bikes at the shop. Or maybe you- > like me- prefer spending $20 for faux cork tape that shreds on > contact... oops, my bike fell over- another $20 for new tape. $20? I get my cork tape on sale cheap from Nashbar and Performance. Even oddly colored genuine Cinelli cork tape can be had every now and then from Nashbar for $3 a roll or so. I have some yellow splotchy color on the brevet bike now. And a few rolls of green splotchy color in reserve. And some Sampson red/white colored stuff too. I've considered putting on the foam grips and covering it with tape to get some extra cushion. Going to try out the Aztec foam stuff since its made for that purpose. I'm looking for a bit more comfort in the drops than double cork can provide when I get into the 200-400 mile range in a day. About 20 people attempted the Rochester 600k last weekend. Tailwinds both days. More than a few came down from the Twin cities. > > I used Tressostar for many years and had no complaints. It's not very > padded, of course, hence my preference for cork, but OTOH cloth bar tape > is much more secure when your hands are sweaty on a 95 degree day or in > the rain. Shellac is best used when you don't use aero brake levers; I > use areo levers because I've got hands like hams and non-aero levers are > far too small for comfort- and therefore I don't shellac bar tape. If > you do shellac bar tape, the twine thing is unnecessary. I don't get > the twine thing.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -     Date: 23 Jun 2007 00:17:52 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182561148.003880.314190@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >, "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <russellseaton1@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 7:47 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > In article <1182441937.298352.37...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> > > > wrote: > > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob > > > > type, and just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. > > > > Apparently y'all are accustomed to being called retards over > > > > here. My developementally disabled clients might have a bone to > > > > pick with that diagnosis! Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day > > > > tourer is rapidly evolving into a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, > > > > rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty good idea what the > > > > opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward > > > > traditional handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I > > > > think racy low-spoke wheels might be an interesting choice for > > > > a bike like this. > > > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new > > > bike exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as > > > well! Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but > > > beautifully forged in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > > It's hard to tell if you are trying to make a point here and, if > > so, what it might be. > > > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a > > > lot of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only > > > makes it hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with > > > sand while wet and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory > > > and tactile discomfort--something that will offer tremendous > > > exclusivity compared to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS > > > sells. > > > > There's something wrong with Tressostar? It and similar products > > have been in use for a long time and work fine. Maybe you > > preferred the Grab-On foam handlebar covers that were so popular in > > the late 1970s. I installed a lot of that crap on Ross bikes at the > > shop. Or maybe you- like me- prefer spending $20 for faux cork tape > > that shreds on contact... oops, my bike fell over- another $20 for > > new tape. > > $20? I get my cork tape on sale cheap from Nashbar and Performance. > Even oddly colored genuine Cinelli cork tape can be had every now and > then from Nashbar for $3 a roll or so. I have some yellow splotchy > color on the brevet bike now. And a few rolls of green splotchy > color in reserve. And some Sampson red/white colored stuff too. > I've considered putting on the foam grips and covering it with tape > to get some extra cushion. Going to try out the Aztec foam stuff > since its made for that purpose. I'm looking for a bit more comfort > in the drops than double cork can provide when I get into the 200-400 > mile range in a day. > > About 20 people attempted the Rochester 600k last weekend. Tailwinds > both days. More than a few came down from the Twin cities. I was sorry to have missed it. I did the 200 and 300 in Rochester this year, but can't go to PBP so I wasn't motivated enough to do the 400 and 600. The first two brevets were really awful with terrible winds (50 mph gusts during the 200, it was hard to even stand up let alone ride); I got a bit of sunstroke on the 300 and took a couple of shortcuts back to Rochester- I have never felt worse on a bike as I did that day. Sheesh.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 18:04:01 From: russellseaton1@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 4:30 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 3:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > Tim McNamara wrote: > > > > > While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks > > > > saddles are very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of > > > > people, given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles were > > > > such crap as you say, market forces would have driven the company out of > > > > business. As it was, the weight-weeny attitude almost did put them out > > > > of business a little over 10 years ago. > > > > It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready > > > availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be > > > lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle Italia > > > Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others from Avocet, > > > etc. > > > Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a > > B66. > > The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as narrow--around > 13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to slide back and use > the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets. You imply a person cannot sit on the rivets. Why can't you sit on the rivets? You and Tim make this odd claim of Brooks saddle being narrow because the rivets are back there. On all of my Brooks saddles the rivets are highly polished. Meaning I've been sitting on them and sliding all over them. Does not seem to bother me a bit. I've done 600km brevets straight through on the Brooks Professional with no discomfort. If you and Tim's argument has any merit then no one could sit on a curb or a rock or a stadium aluminum seat because they are just as hard as the Brooks rivets. People sit for hours on stadium seats and aren't paralyzed or harmed. I've got a bike with a WTB > type narrow saddle on it--it's a bit over 13cm, but you can ride the > rear in comfort. I've got a Selle Royal that's sort of a cross between > a Unicanitor and a Rolls and it's nearly 14cm wide. Both support my > bones perfectly, the latter being totally smooth leather and comfy > enough for centuries. I don't see a need for wider saddles--unless you > have a female anatomy. I like my bones supported, totally smooth > leather and traditional side skirts in the shell. > > >That doesn't work for everybody. What are the nylon equivalents > > to the B17 and wider saddles like? > > I don't consider the B17 to be wide as I mentioned before. I think a > Rolls is a pretty good substitute if set up right. I like 'em dead > level. Something like a Concor is indeed a bit too narrow for me as > well. > > We certainly could use more simple and firm nylon shelled saddles on > the market that work like a leather saddle in the sense that the > comfort is in the shell, not the padding--but plain black leather > needs a new technical name for it to fly off the shelf. > > >Generally speaking, they're lumpy, > > poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. > > Check the sales at Nashbar. They get lots of NOS saddles that are > pretty nice from time to time. My Selle Royal was only $4 on closeout-- > though I'd have paid a hundred for the comfort. > > Or use the Brooks if you like 'em. They drive me batty. > > > I ride a couple of B90-3 saddles, no longer in production. I'm not > > enamored of their overdone springiness, and I would be glad to opt out > > of their nearly 5-pound weight. Buy what I get from them is a nice > > wide, firm, smooth top of normal saddle shape. I don't see what > > exactly is so difficult about that for saddle manufacturers to get. > > Why do all the firm, smooth, normally shaped plastic saddles only come > > in suppository size? I don't know-- because real cyclists' butts (sit > > bones included) come in lots of sizes. > > > I like the Electra Townie and Comfort saddles alright, but they still > > leave something to be desired. While much firmer and better shaped > > than most wide saddles, they are still overpadded and too short for > > their width (which is wider than necessary). And the one with a > > plain, unstitched top has a bunch of useless springs and junk between > > it and the rails. > > Some of the WTB saddles are pretty comfy, but I've not ridden one that > I wouldn't want firmed up. > > > > > > > A friend who owns a bike shop > > > > finds Brooks saddles to be one of his biggest selling items and his > > > > customers have been almost without complaint about them. > > > > Sure, because it's hard to find sensible alternatives in today's > > > market. It's either a Brooks or a ridiculous, pseudo-high-tech, form- > > > over function, over-priced POS ass hatchet such as a Fizik, or the > > > "modern" offerings from Selle Italia, San Marco, etc. > > > There would be a decent market, I believe, for something like a Turbo > > or a Rolls that's 8+ inches wide rather than 5" to 6". Vetta used to > > offer something sort of along those lines in the late '80s or early > > '90s, but it still had more padding than optimum for comfort. > > I know those old Vettas. They've enjoyed the distinction of putting my > wang to sleep many times in the late 80s. They were horrible. > > > > > Part of the blame must go to Specialized for poisoning the well by > > getting ignorant people all fretful about their peckers if their > > saddle doesn't have a fart slot. That has put all normal, smooth- > > topped, potentially comfortable saddles at a marketing disadvantage. > > > Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing bike > > saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable plastic > > saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. They look cool > > and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness stuff from which they > > are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike messengers are using them. If > > that's what you can buy to get an 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped > > like a pie with a snout and isn't overly squishy, so be it. > > I don't really mind a notch in the padding like my WTB clone has--but > the slots are dumbest looking things ever. Make the padding firm > enough and you won't sink in and get a cold wang.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -     Date: 23 Jun 2007 00:14:12 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182560641.038410.275510@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, "russellseaton1@yahoo.com" <russellseaton1@yahoo.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 4:30 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 3:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > Tim McNamara wrote: > > > > > > > While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks saddles are > > > > > very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of people, > > > > > given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles > > > > > were such crap as you say, market forces would have driven > > > > > the company out of business. As it was, the weight-weeny > > > > > attitude almost did put them out of business a little over 10 > > > > > years ago. > > > > > > It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready > > > > availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to > > > > be lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle > > > > Italia Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others > > > > from Avocet, etc. > > > > > Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a > > > B66. > > > > The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as > > narrow--around 13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to > > slide back and use the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets. > > You imply a person cannot sit on the rivets. Why can't you sit on > the rivets? You and Tim make this odd claim of Brooks saddle being > narrow because the rivets are back there. Nope, not me. I'm the pro-Brooks guy in this exchange. I find 'em plenty wide, in fact I prefer the slightly narrower Pros. The rivets on my 30 year old Pro got a bit irritating as the leather had finally stretched away from them a bit and they were sitting up proud. I peened them down around the edges and once again comfy as can be. > On all of my Brooks saddles the rivets are highly polished. Meaning > I've been sitting on them and sliding all over them. Does not seem > to bother me a bit. I've done 600km brevets straight through on the > Brooks Professional with no discomfort. Almost ditto, except I stopped for a snooze. 400 km straight through was fine. > If you and Tim's argument has any merit then no one could sit on a > curb or a rock or a stadium aluminum seat because they are just as > hard as the Brooks rivets. People sit for hours on stadium seats and > aren't paralyzed or harmed. Again, not my argument. I like Brooks saddles and have 'em on all but one of my bikes (which has a rather similar but much lighter Lepper Voyageur).   Date: 22 Jun 2007 17:38:16 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 5:17 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > You might want to look into Waterford as an > > > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seems like it might be more up your > > alley.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Waterfords just don't do it for me. I wonder, where do you find a lugged Waterford to be lacking? > I have a Rivendell Romulus > [production level Riv] which I'm very happy with. The only things I > would change is to carve up the lugs "carve up the lugs"? To change them in what way? > and take a weight weenie stick to > it, which is how the custom will work out. What do you have in mind? > I'll keep the Rom around > and treat it like a mountain bike. That thing is waaay overbuilt for a > little guy like me. > > Joe   Date: 22 Jun 2007 15:17:50 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels You might want to look into Waterford as an > altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seems like it might be more up your > alley.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Waterfords just don't do it for me. I have a Rivendell Romulus [production level Riv] which I'm very happy with. The only things I would change is to carve up the lugs and take a weight weenie stick to it, which is how the custom will work out. I'll keep the Rom around and treat it like a mountain bike. That thing is waaay overbuilt for a little guy like me. Joe   Date: 22 Jun 2007 21:31:36 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Tom Nakashima wrote: > > Chalo wrote: > > > > What are the nylon equivalents > > to the B17 and wider saddles like? Generally speaking, they're lumpy, > > poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. > > How about the Avocet Gelflex 20 Saddle? Isn't that saddle ancient history? I had an Avocet Gel 30 back in the day, but I haven't seen one in ages. Anyway, those are a good example of what I'm talking about. They have gel padding, which doesn't help, and they have "cheeks", which definitely don't help. I checked them out on the BikePro time capsule: http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/avocet.shtml The Vetta saddle page on bikepro.com pretty clearly illustrates what I've been missing in currently available saddles: http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/vetta.shtml In the diagram, the Vetta ATB is the one on the upper left. Note that the diagram is not to scale-- the ATB model was not only wider than the "men's" or "racing" styles, it was also longer and generally bigger. It was smooth-topped, flattish with a gently rounded crown, and just a decent saddle overall-- no grooves, no bumps, no squishy spots. Now that I've become accustomed to the Brooks B90, I'm not sure that I would find it as tolerable as I did 15 to 18 years ago. But among the saddles I used at that time, it was the most workable by far. I wish somebody would make something similar today and sell it for a low price (because an expensive plastic saddle is an insult to the buyer's intelligence). Chalo     Date: 24 Jun 2007 14:12:54 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels >> Chalo wrote: >>> What are the nylon equivalents >>> to the B17 and wider saddles like? Generally speaking, they're lumpy, >>> poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. > Tom Nakashima wrote: >> How about the Avocet Gelflex 20 Saddle? Chalo wrote: > Isn't that saddle ancient history? I had an Avocet Gel 30 back in the > day, but I haven't seen one in ages. > > Anyway, those are a good example of what I'm talking about. They have > gel padding, which doesn't help, and they have "cheeks", which > definitely don't help. > > I checked them out on the BikePro time capsule: > > http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/avocet.shtml > > The Vetta saddle page on bikepro.com pretty clearly illustrates what > I've been missing in currently available saddles: > > http://www.bikepro.com/products/saddles/vetta.shtml > > In the diagram, the Vetta ATB is the one on the upper left. Note that > the diagram is not to scale-- the ATB model was not only wider than > the "men's" or "racing" styles, it was also longer and generally > bigger. It was smooth-topped, flattish with a gently rounded crown, > and just a decent saddle overall-- no grooves, no bumps, no squishy > spots. Now that I've become accustomed to the Brooks B90, I'm not > sure that I would find it as tolerable as I did 15 to 18 years ago. > But among the saddles I used at that time, it was the most workable by > far. I wish somebody would make something similar today and sell it > for a low price (because an expensive plastic saddle is an insult to > the buyer's intelligence). Right. Both Avocet and Vetta sold Selle Italia brand saddles, rebadged, at one time. Not only has Selle Italia discontinued those nice ample designs, the American remarketers discovered that a feature-laden Chinese lump of plastic can cost less and sell for more, hence our modern world with it's dismal choices. At least Brooks fit some riders, after that, what? -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971   Date: 22 Jun 2007 21:30:06 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 3:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > Tim McNamara wrote: > > > > While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks > > > saddles are very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of > > > people, given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles were > > > such crap as you say, market forces would have driven the company out of > > > business. As it was, the weight-weeny attitude almost did put them out > > > of business a little over 10 years ago. > > > It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready > > availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be > > lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle Italia > > Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others from Avocet, > > etc. > > Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a > B66. The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as narrow--around 13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to slide back and use the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets. I've got a bike with a WTB type narrow saddle on it--it's a bit over 13cm, but you can ride the rear in comfort. I've got a Selle Royal that's sort of a cross between a Unicanitor and a Rolls and it's nearly 14cm wide. Both support my bones perfectly, the latter being totally smooth leather and comfy enough for centuries. I don't see a need for wider saddles--unless you have a female anatomy. I like my bones supported, totally smooth leather and traditional side skirts in the shell. >That doesn't work for everybody. What are the nylon equivalents > to the B17 and wider saddles like? I don't consider the B17 to be wide as I mentioned before. I think a Rolls is a pretty good substitute if set up right. I like 'em dead level. Something like a Concor is indeed a bit too narrow for me as well. We certainly could use more simple and firm nylon shelled saddles on the market that work like a leather saddle in the sense that the comfort is in the shell, not the padding--but plain black leather needs a new technical name for it to fly off the shelf. >Generally speaking, they're lumpy, > poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. Check the sales at Nashbar. They get lots of NOS saddles that are pretty nice from time to time. My Selle Royal was only $4 on closeout-- though I'd have paid a hundred for the comfort. Or use the Brooks if you like 'em. They drive me batty. > I ride a couple of B90-3 saddles, no longer in production. I'm not > enamored of their overdone springiness, and I would be glad to opt out > of their nearly 5-pound weight. Buy what I get from them is a nice > wide, firm, smooth top of normal saddle shape. I don't see what > exactly is so difficult about that for saddle manufacturers to get. > Why do all the firm, smooth, normally shaped plastic saddles only come > in suppository size? I don't know-- because real cyclists' butts (sit > bones included) come in lots of sizes. > > I like the Electra Townie and Comfort saddles alright, but they still > leave something to be desired. While much firmer and better shaped > than most wide saddles, they are still overpadded and too short for > their width (which is wider than necessary). And the one with a > plain, unstitched top has a bunch of useless springs and junk between > it and the rails. Some of the WTB saddles are pretty comfy, but I've not ridden one that I wouldn't want firmed up. > > > > A friend who owns a bike shop > > > finds Brooks saddles to be one of his biggest selling items and his > > > customers have been almost without complaint about them. > > > Sure, because it's hard to find sensible alternatives in today's > > market. It's either a Brooks or a ridiculous, pseudo-high-tech, form- > > over function, over-priced POS ass hatchet such as a Fizik, or the > > "modern" offerings from Selle Italia, San Marco, etc. > > There would be a decent market, I believe, for something like a Turbo > or a Rolls that's 8+ inches wide rather than 5" to 6". Vetta used to > offer something sort of along those lines in the late '80s or early > '90s, but it still had more padding than optimum for comfort. I know those old Vettas. They've enjoyed the distinction of putting my wang to sleep many times in the late 80s. They were horrible. > > Part of the blame must go to Specialized for poisoning the well by > getting ignorant people all fretful about their peckers if their > saddle doesn't have a fart slot. That has put all normal, smooth- > topped, potentially comfortable saddles at a marketing disadvantage. > > Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing bike > saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable plastic > saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. They look cool > and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness stuff from which they > are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike messengers are using them. If > that's what you can buy to get an 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped > like a pie with a snout and isn't overly squishy, so be it. I don't really mind a notch in the padding like my WTB clone has--but the slots are dumbest looking things ever. Make the padding firm enough and you won't sink in and get a cold wang.     Date: 23 Jun 2007 00:07:39 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182547806.017432.146160@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 3:09 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready > > > availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be > > > lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle > > > Italia Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others > > > from Avocet, etc. > > > > Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a > > B66. > > The part of the B17 that you can actually sit on is as narrow--around > 13cm on the Flyer I've got here. And if you try to slide back and use > the rear of the saddle you hit the rivets. Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros, which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are. Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me. Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful about inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something that is all too common in human nature.       Date: 24 Jun 2007 17:10:22 From: Peter Cole Subject: Re: Good wheels Tim McNamara wrote: > Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm > narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm > center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit > about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted > to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the > same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros, > which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are. > > Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me. > Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful about > inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something > that is all too common in human nature. The problem I had with Brooks is that they sag too much. I need a very flat saddle. If there's any sag at all, I go numb. Flites were fine shape-wise for me, but a little too hard for brevets. I used a Selle Italia "Tri-matic" right out of the box and rode a 400K. I almost lost a whole season screwing around with Brooks (Pro & B-17). I think it's a simple matter of anatomy (individual) and perhaps riding position. I also tend to ride with lower bars than most. As far as lugs go, I think they're a bit unreliable. I've had 2 lugged frames fail, one right along the lug edge where they tend to concentrate stress, the other had a tube pull out of the lug, from a bad braze, which are impossible to check. I'll take welded, thanks. As for wheels, I'm just practical. You can get a pair of nice Ultegra/Mavic for cheap & tweak them and they'll be pretty bullet-proof, I just don't have the patience to screw around with anything more exotic. I think Mavic rims are a bit of a rip though. I like Cinelli tape all right, but it's too fragile. Very hard to wrap it tight enough to not slip around & lay flat. I've found the Nashbar house tape to be better. You can pull it very tight and it's grippy. The last roll I bought was $3.         Date: 24 Jun 2007 17:54:52 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels Peter Cole wrote: > Tim McNamara wrote: > >> Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm >> narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 >> cm center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can >> sit about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is >> riveted to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly >> comfortable. At the same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple >> cm wider than the Pros, which might be why it's not as comfortable to >> me at the Pros are. >> >> Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for >> me. Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful about >> inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something >> that is all too common in human nature. > > The problem I had with Brooks is that they sag too much. I need a very > flat saddle. If there's any sag at all, I go numb. Flites were fine > shape-wise for me, but a little too hard for brevets. I used a Selle > Italia "Tri-matic" right out of the box and rode a 400K. I almost lost a > whole season screwing around with Brooks (Pro & B-17). I think it's a > simple matter of anatomy (individual) and perhaps riding position. I > also tend to ride with lower bars than most. I think you are quite right, it is a matter of individual anatomy as to which saddles suit a person. Brooks saddles have acquired a mystique (both pro and con) that IMHO is pretty much disproportionate to reality. They work for some people, they don't for others. > As far as lugs go, I think they're a bit unreliable. I've had 2 lugged > frames fail, one right along the lug edge where they tend to concentrate > stress, the other had a tube pull out of the lug, from a bad braze, > which are impossible to check. I'll take welded, thanks. Every method of joining tubes has a failure rate. I've seen broken lugged frames and broken welded frames, but only one broken fillet brazed frame. That was a Viscount Aerospace Pro, bought in 1976 and broken by 1981. The seat tube cracked just above the fillet. Fillet brazed frames being rarer than lugged or welded might be why I've only seen the one. I have a fillet brazed Ritchey road frame that I raced on for a few years and have ridden for 8 or 9 years with no sign of failure anywhere. I suspect- as with all the other methods- the skill of the welder/brazer is rather important. I'm really just a bit prejudiced- I think welded frames are butt-ugly and they remind me of Sears Free Spirits and Huffys and the like. If I wasn't an old fart who worked in bike shops in the late 70s to mid-80s, I might think differently. > As for wheels, I'm just practical. You can get a pair of nice > Ultegra/Mavic for cheap & tweak them and they'll be pretty bullet-proof, > I just don't have the patience to screw around with anything more > exotic. I think Mavic rims are a bit of a rip though. I agree competely except I no longer use Mavic rims (I do have a back stock of three unused MA2s in reserve- I bought out the local bike shop's stock when the MA2 was discontinued). Mavic rims cost at least twice what they should. > I like Cinelli tape all right, but it's too fragile. Very hard to wrap > it tight enough to not slip around & lay flat. I've found the Nashbar > house tape to be better. You can pull it very tight and it's grippy. The > last roll I bought was $3. Cinelli's cork tape used to be much better than it is now, IMHO. I've developed a pretty good touch with it so I can get it to wrap well, but it's fragile and cuts easily if anything hits the handlebars. I was given a free package of some cheap-ass tape by the LBS, and darned if it isn't actually pretty good. It's a rubbery material, I think it's polyurethane but I am not sure and I don't have the box anymore. I haven't tried the Nashbar house brand, haven't ever even looked at it on their Web site.       Date: 23 Jun 2007 10:49:52 From: Callistus Valerius Subject: Re: Good wheels > Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm > narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about 9 cm > center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I can sit > about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the top is riveted > to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly comfortable. At the > same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a couple cm wider than the Pros, > which might be why it's not as comfortable to me at the Pros are. > > Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't for me. > Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful about > inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, something > that is all too common in human nature. ---------- I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to get use to it. One thing it's hard to set up, and people should know that before they buy one, that the fore and aft movement is tiny, so I had to buy an FSA seatpost with some serious setback to make it work. Also it's extremely slick, so that gets some getting use to, I don't know if that goes away or not. Also someone commented that there weren't enough riding positions on it, I find the opposite, too many. But my riding style is unorthodox, as I'm always moving around on a saddle. On my prolink I had two positions, front, back, on the brooks I have four, with middle-back, middle forward. My big concern is a rain ride. It doesn't rain much here in the desert, but when it does it's usually a downpour, and if I was unlucky to be caught in such a situation, how do Brooks hold up in big rain (not just a sprinkle).         Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:29:17 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <kV6fi.222$zA4.153@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >, "Callistus Valerius" <jazzyboss@hotmail.com > wrote: > > Have you got a B.17 Standard or a B.17N? The latter is a couple cm > > narrower. I checked my Pros; my ischial tuberosity dents are about > > 9 cm center to center, so for me 13 cm would be plenty of room. I > > can sit about 3 cm in front of the rear stretcher (the thing the > > top is riveted to) and not feel the metal at all, and be perfectly > > comfortable. At the same point, the B.17 Standard I have is a > > couple cm wider than the Pros, which might be why it's not as > > comfortable to me at the Pros are. > > > > Brooks saddles may just not be for you. Just like Flites aren't > > for me. Does that mean they are crap? Nope. We have to be careful > > about inflating our personal experiences into universal judgments, > > something that is all too common in human nature. > > I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still > trying to get use to it. One thing it's hard to set up, and people > should know that before they buy one, that the fore and aft movement > is tiny, so I had to buy an FSA seatpost with some serious setback to > make it work. That's true, the straight section of the rails is much shorter than most other saddles. They are much easier to position forward than back. I suppose that goes back to the traditional English frame geometry of 73 head/71 seat tube angles. I use Ritchey/Nitto seatposts and find that the setback is just adequate for my Ritchey and fine for my Rivendell, which has a 72.5 seat tube. Setting the angle is also an arcane art. Because no two pieces of cowhide are exactly the same, there's a bit of trial and error. I use a carpenter's level and set the saddle so that the rear edge is about 5 mm higher than the highest part of the curve at the nose. You need to have the bike on a level surface, of course. > Also it's extremely slick, so that gets some getting use to, I don't > know if that goes away or not. Also someone commented that there > weren't enough riding positions on it, I find the opposite, too many. > But my riding style is unorthodox, as I'm always moving around on a > saddle. On my prolink I had two positions, front, back, on the > brooks I have four, with middle-back, middle forward. I find that it's a bit slippery in the beginning of a ride but that this goes away quickly. A little bit of sweat makes the saddle grab a bit and I stay put. > My big concern is a rain ride. It doesn't rain much here in the > desert, but when it does it's usually a downpour, and if I was > unlucky to be caught in such a situation, how do Brooks hold up in > big rain (not just a sprinkle). Big rain soaks the leather, which then stretches under your weight. A 10 minute downpour is probably not going to be a big problem. A six hour ride in heavy rain, not so good. The saddle can easily become what Jobst once colorfully referred to as an "ass hatchet." I have fenders on the bike I ride most and that's the one I choose if it's likely to rain; my butt protects the saddle from rain falling down and the fender stops the water being flung off the rear wheel. On my other bikes I have a plastic bag in the saddle pack, which weighs a couple grams and takes up no significant space. I pop that over the saddle- it takes about 30 seconds- and it hangs down a bit, protecting the saddle from rain coming off the wheel.           Date: 24 Jun 2007 02:27:06 From: Callistus Valerius Subject: Re: Good wheels > > That's true, the straight section of the rails is much shorter than most > other saddles. They are much easier to position forward than back. I > suppose that goes back to the traditional English frame geometry of 73 > head/71 seat tube angles. I use Ritchey/Nitto seatposts and find that > the setback is just adequate for my Ritchey and fine for my Rivendell, > which has a 72.5 seat tube. > > Setting the angle is also an arcane art. Because no two pieces of > cowhide are exactly the same, there's a bit of trial and error. I use a > carpenter's level and set the saddle so that the rear edge is about 5 mm > higher than the highest part of the curve at the nose. You need to have > the bike on a level surface, of course. ----------- I have a few bikes, so I switch back an forth, so I didn't get it quite dialed in, until today. Once it's in the right position, I stopped moving around on it. You're right it's trial an error, different than the other ones where you can basically do it by sight. > > > Big rain soaks the leather, which then stretches under your weight. A > 10 minute downpour is probably not going to be a big problem. A six > hour ride in heavy rain, not so good. The saddle can easily become what > Jobst once colorfully referred to as an "ass hatchet." I have fenders > on the bike I ride most and that's the one I choose if it's likely to > rain; my butt protects the saddle from rain falling down and the fender > stops the water being flung off the rear wheel. On my other bikes I > have a plastic bag in the saddle pack, which weighs a couple grams and > takes up no significant space. I pop that over the saddle- it takes > about 30 seconds- and it hangs down a bit, protecting the saddle from > rain coming off the wheel. ------------ I have some fenders too, but we have these things called monsoons, that come out of nowhere, and when they hit, you've never seen such downpours. I'll bring a bag with me during monsoon season. Now if I could bring a lightning rod with me, I'd have everything. Usually you ride like hell to find shelter, and take cover, a couple hours later it's all over. One time I took cover in a ditch, bolts all over, couldn't see the road, than the ditch filled up with water, that was a bad day. So you don't want to get them soaked, good to know.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 20:09:09 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > Tim McNamara wrote: > > > > While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks > > saddles are very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of > > people, given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles were > > such crap as you say, market forces would have driven the company out of > > business. As it was, the weight-weeny attitude almost did put them out > > of business a little over 10 years ago. > > It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready > availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be > lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle Italia > Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others from Avocet, > etc. Those are all horribly narrow compared even to a B17, let alone a B66. That doesn't work for everybody. What are the nylon equivalents to the B17 and wider saddles like? Generally speaking, they're lumpy, poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. I ride a couple of B90-3 saddles, no longer in production. I'm not enamored of their overdone springiness, and I would be glad to opt out of their nearly 5-pound weight. Buy what I get from them is a nice wide, firm, smooth top of normal saddle shape. I don't see what exactly is so difficult about that for saddle manufacturers to get. Why do all the firm, smooth, normally shaped plastic saddles only come in suppository size? I don't know-- because real cyclists' butts (sit bones included) come in lots of sizes. I like the Electra Townie and Comfort saddles alright, but they still leave something to be desired. While much firmer and better shaped than most wide saddles, they are still overpadded and too short for their width (which is wider than necessary). And the one with a plain, unstitched top has a bunch of useless springs and junk between it and the rails. > > A friend who owns a bike shop > > finds Brooks saddles to be one of his biggest selling items and his > > customers have been almost without complaint about them. > > Sure, because it's hard to find sensible alternatives in today's > market. It's either a Brooks or a ridiculous, pseudo-high-tech, form- > over function, over-priced POS ass hatchet such as a Fizik, or the > "modern" offerings from Selle Italia, San Marco, etc. There would be a decent market, I believe, for something like a Turbo or a Rolls that's 8+ inches wide rather than 5" to 6". Vetta used to offer something sort of along those lines in the late '80s or early '90s, but it still had more padding than optimum for comfort. Part of the blame must go to Specialized for poisoning the well by getting ignorant people all fretful about their peckers if their saddle doesn't have a fart slot. That has put all normal, smooth- topped, potentially comfortable saddles at a marketing disadvantage. Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing bike saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable plastic saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. They look cool and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness stuff from which they are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike messengers are using them. If that's what you can buy to get an 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped like a pie with a snout and isn't overly squishy, so be it. Chalo     Date: 22 Jun 2007 23:58:29 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182542949.414320.150130@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com >, Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote: > Why do all the firm, smooth, normally shaped plastic saddles only > come in suppository size? Sheee-it, that's the funniest thing I've read in this newsgroup in months!     Date: 22 Jun 2007 21:03:39 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182542949.414320.150130@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com > , Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote: > Featuritis and gratuitous branding attempts on OEM and racing bike > saddles have resulted in normal, practical, comfortable plastic > saddles looking out-of-fashion. Not so for Brookses. They look cool > and authentic, like the real tack-and-harness stuff from which they > are descended. Lots of cool-kid bike messengers are using them. If > that's what you can buy to get an 8" wide saddle that isn't shaped > like a pie with a snout and isn't overly squishy, so be it. Brooks saddles had all but disappeared, but now I am seeing them regularly again. Is this the hobbit effect? -- Michael Press     Date: 22 Jun 2007 14:01:37 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Chalo" <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1182542949.414320.150130@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > What are the nylon equivalents > to the B17 and wider saddles like? Generally speaking, they're lumpy, > poofy, uncomfortable pieces of crap. > Chalo > How about the Avocet Gelflex 20 Saddle? Wife says; "I don't know which one you proofhide more, your Brooks B17 or your leather La-Z-Boy recliner. -tom   Date: 22 Jun 2007 13:03:32 From: Hank Wirtz Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 11:10 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <1182531104.117123.162...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, > Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that > > I'm going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon > > fork, Ti- rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 > > stupid-light (for me and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I > > can get the thing under 20 lbs. > > Should be "doable." After all, my wife's 53 cm Heron (a former > Rivendell spin-off company) weighs barely over 20 lbs with a steel fork > and "retro" components (Superbe crank, derailleurs, brakes and > freewheel; Phil hubs, 32 or 36 spokes, MA2 rims; 700 x 28 tires; Brooks > Pro S saddle; Nitto bars and stem). Todd Kuzma managed to get his Heron > down to 16 lbs or something like that- not bad for a bike made from > Reynolds 531. > > Sub 20 lbs was easy to do 30 years ago, I don't know why it seems to be > such a big deal to achieve this now. Brifters weigh more than downtubes+ drilled brake levers w/o springs. Dual pivot brakes weigh more than single-pivot ones, too. Only retrogrouches ride sewups these days, and good luck finding 280-gram rims. Five more cogs. That's the real kicker.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 12:52:05 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 2:41 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote: > On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 11:51 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > > > -- > > > > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > > > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > > > ride and durability of steel. > > > > > Joe > > > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm > > > going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- > > > rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me > > > and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing > > > under 20 lbs. > > > > I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > > > PX-10, > > > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) > > > > but my only rule for the Guerciotti will be, there are no > > > rules. If it's raining, or if the pavement's cruddy, I have three > > > other bikes I can ride for that. This will be the Light & Fast bike.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > I know, but the original is long gone (I think it had an Avocet > Touring II on it when my mom bought it used 25 years ago) and even NOS > ones on ebay are in pretty rough shape, for 2-3x the price of a B17, > which doesn't look horribly out of place.- Oh, a B-17 doesn't look out of place, it's just lacking in 'Frenchness'. And you're right, Ideales are hard to find; I got lucky a few years ago and found a NOS Model 92 "Rebour". It goes well with my vintage Motobecane, but I must say I don't find it, or a Brooks, to be "magical".   Date: 22 Jun 2007 12:41:22 From: Hank Wirtz Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:15 am, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 11:51 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > > -- > > > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > > ride and durability of steel. > > > > Joe > > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm > > going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- > > rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me > > and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing > > under 20 lbs. > > > I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > > PX-10, > > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) > > > but my only rule for the Guerciotti will be, there are no > > rules. If it's raining, or if the pavement's cruddy, I have three > > other bikes I can ride for that. This will be the Light & Fast bike.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - I know, but the original is long gone (I think it had an Avocet Touring II on it when my mom bought it used 25 years ago) and even NOS ones on ebay are in pretty rough shape, for 2-3x the price of a B17, which doesn't look horribly out of place.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 12:21:32 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 1:21 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> > > > wrote: > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding > > > > >> how twine can be involved.... > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and > > > > leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather > > > > brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about this > > stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? I have a grand > sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy bikes to hang on > the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions about certain bits of > gear. > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what I > see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop brake > shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead push > overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > redness. > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some > folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their > catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must > obey.- "I am thy lord thy gRant, thou shalt have no gRants before me."   Date: 22 Jun 2007 11:21:41 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> > > wrote: > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding > > > >> how twine can be involved.... > > > > >> -- > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and > > > leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather > > > brake pads and wooden rims? > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about this > stuff than do their critics. You, for example. Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions about certain bits of gear. It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and redness. Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must obey.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 22:54:53 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182536501.687104.224080@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com > , landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit some > folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in their > catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must > obey. Oh no, you ride it because that is what you _want_ to ride. If you would simply attend the meetings, this would all be made clear to you, brother. -- Michael Press     Date: 22 Jun 2007 23:53:49 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182536501.687104.224080@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > about certain bits of gear. Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are this year. > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > redness. On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > must obey. That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.       Date: 26 Jun 2007 22:14:33 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 11:48 pm, Michael Press wrote: > Joe Bernard wrote: > ... > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > > now. > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > > Regarding your trials, you need to take care of > yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or > a something you have on your list. You are wise to > involve yourself with others. Trials should be born in stoic silence. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful       Date: 26 Jun 2007 22:03:21 From: Hank Wirtz Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 9:48 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182904553.547370.164...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com> > , > Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 26, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > In article > > > <1182898335.032193.49...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > > Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > > In article > > > > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > > > > , > > > > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > > > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > > > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > > > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > > > > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes. > > > > I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me? > > > Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring > > bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe- > > clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out > > enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish > > toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike > > without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know > > why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think > > these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm > > Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't > > personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small > > Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon > > unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the > > Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes > > in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind, > > brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is > > what I expected over here. > > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > > now. > > Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip > overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional > wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. > I actually like some toe clip overlap. When I'm stopped at a light, I can rest my toe against the tire to keep the wheel/handlebars from flopping around.       Date: 26 Jun 2007 14:25:23 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 4:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote: > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > news:1182888175.374843.152610@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > >>news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > >> > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in > >> >> message > > >> >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! > >> >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) > > >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, > > >> > It's a couple of things. > > >> > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google > >> > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. > > >> > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) > >> > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor > >> > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery > >> > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new > >> > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same > >> > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) > > >> >> I met Grant Peterson, > >> >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and > >> >> he's > >> >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've > >> >> talked > >> >> to > >> >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian > >> >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not > >> >> like > >> >> they're making tons of money at this. > > >> > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a > >> > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and > >> > calling it ice cream. YMMV. > > >> I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone > >> Bicycles. > > > ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much? > > We'll never know. > > >>Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting > >> with. > >> I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". > > > So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, > > etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that? > > Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman like > Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson has. > It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so I'm > surprised you asked that. Your answer shows *exactly* why I asked the question. The answer is that, upon reflection, you decided you had Peterson in the wrong company, right?(IMO, putting Peterson in with folks like Eisentraut, BG, Richard Sachs, etc., does them a disservice.)         Date: 27 Jun 2007 06:17:03 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message news:1182893123.266857.144570@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 26, 4:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1182888175.374843.152610@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in >> >> message >> >> >>news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in >> >> >> message >> >> >> >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! >> >> >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) >> >> >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, >> >> >> > It's a couple of things. >> >> >> > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the >> >> > Google >> >> > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. >> >> >> > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) >> >> > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in >> >> > favor >> >> > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the >> >> > slippery >> >> > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new >> >> > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same >> >> > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) >> >> >> >> I met Grant Peterson, >> >> >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, >> >> >> and >> >> >> he's >> >> >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've >> >> >> talked >> >> >> to >> >> >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, >> >> >> Brian >> >> >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's >> >> >> not >> >> >> like >> >> >> they're making tons of money at this. >> >> >> > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a >> >> > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement >> >> > and >> >> > calling it ice cream. YMMV. >> >> >> I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone >> >> Bicycles. >> >> > ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much? >> > We'll never know. >> >> >>Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting >> >> with. >> >> I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". >> >> > So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, >> > etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that? >> >> Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman >> like >> Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson >> has. >> It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so I'm >> surprised you asked that. > > Your answer shows *exactly* why I asked the question. The answer is > that, upon reflection, you decided you had Peterson in the wrong > company, right?(IMO, putting Peterson in with folks like Eisentraut, > BG, Richard Sachs, etc., does them a disservice.) > Joe Bell isn't in the class of Eisentraut or Sachs either, I didn't hear you mention his name. These were just a list of some of the people whom I spoke with about their interest in bicycling. Grant Peterson had good ideas just as Scott Nicol had for Ibis Cycles. Can't knock a man for fulfilling his dreams. Has Grant Peterson done anything to you? Or bad-mouthed Ozark Bicycles? -tom     Date: 22 Jun 2007 16:23:18 From: David L. Johnson Subject: Re: Good wheels landotter wrote: > catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you must > obey. > Well, no. He decided what he would sell, and if'n you don't like it, you can buy from someone else. Exactly what I have done. -- David L. Johnson Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of business.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 10:26:27 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:37 am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <1182525535.453357.42...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter > > > > <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > > > >inconsistent. > > > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding > > > > and you'll have a lifetime companion. > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a > > > Brooks, either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not > > > the saddle for you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of > > > the box, maybe a ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The > > > Brooks Pro S is my wife's favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes > > > sitting one any other saddle). > > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and > > waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never > > comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one > > place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There > > is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. > > You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your > > urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. > > I don't experience any of these problems with my Brooks Pros (I have > four or five of them). I find the B.17 to be less comfortable- it is > too wide and the top is too flexible. I've never ridden a Flyer but the > springs give me pause- it'd take a lot of farting around to find the > right angle. > > > Seriously-- I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a > > couple months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by > > flogging it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me > > to have it on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage > > garbage is. Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm > > of foam or two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's > > not even funny. > > Well, obviously for you Brooks saddles are not the right ones. But you > are making the logical error of generalizing your particular situation > to a universal one. While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks > saddles are very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of > people, given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles were > such crap as you say, market forces would have driven the company out of > business. As it was, the weight-weeny attitude almost did put them out > of business a little over 10 years ago. It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle Italia Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others from Avocet, etc. > A friend who owns a bike shop > finds Brooks saddles to be one of his biggest selling items and his > customers have been almost without complaint about them. Sure, because it's hard to find sensible alternatives in today's market. It's either a Brooks or a ridiculous, pseudo-high-tech, form- over function, over-priced POS ass hatchet such as a Fizik, or the "modern" offerings from Selle Italia, San Marco, etc.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 19:21:52 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:26:27 -0700, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: >It wasn't "the weight weenie attitude" so much as the ready >availability of comfy, non-fussy saddles that also happened to be >lighter *and* less expensive. Saddles like the classic Selle Italia >Turbo, the San Marco Concor, Regal and Rolls and others from Avocet, >etc. Good point, to which I'll add that there are more recent saddle that are as comfortable as those too -- for example Turbomatics are even more comfy than Turbos. And there are some moderately expensive saddles, like the Fizik Arione, that are getting rave reviews on comfort. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************   Date: 22 Jun 2007 10:15:51 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 11:51 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote: > On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > > -- > > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > > ride and durability of steel. > > > Joe > > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm > going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- > rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me > and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing > under 20 lbs. > > I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my > PX-10, Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) > but my only rule for the Guerciotti will be, there are no > rules. If it's raining, or if the pavement's cruddy, I have three > other bikes I can ride for that. This will be the Light & Fast bike.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -     Date: 23 Jun 2007 17:15:12 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels -snip- > Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote: >> I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my >> PX-10, Ozark Bicycle wrote: > Your Peug would be happier with an Ideale, you know. ;-) Peugeot shipped the bike with a Brooks Pro -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971   Date: 22 Jun 2007 10:04:14 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu > wrote: > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how > >> twine can be involved.... > > >> -- > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should actually > use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the 20th century, I > suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and leather (or cloth?) > bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather brake pads and wooden rims? > Yes, and use them humorlessly.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 12:59:34 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182531854.392788.117930@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> > wrote: > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding > > >> how twine can be involved.... > > > > >> -- > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and > > leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather > > brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about this stuff than do their critics. You, for example.       Date: 28 Jun 2007 07:56:42 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 28, 9:02 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > Luigi de Guzman wrote: > > > Chalo wrote: > > > > Consider your choice carefully, lest the Grant eventually talk you > > > into using a Portuguese cork saddle and Malaysian brake hoods molded > > > from gutta-percha. > > > "the" Grant, as in the guy at Rivendell? > > The same. Le Grand Grant, duc de Rivendel. Le Rumpkin gras. Ma=EEtre > des cuirs, des laques, et des ficelles de chanvre. > > > Not even all of his bikes have > > level top tubes; according to their own specs, the Atlantis top tube > > slopes up 2 degrees, in an effort to get the bars up to a useful place. > > You sure that's not a side effect of the bitchin' suspension-corrected > lugged box-crown Rivendell hucking forks? > Probably. Otherwise, a 2 degree upslope seems silly, in that it doesn't really do much, as evidenced by the 'extended' head tubes on the Riv frames and the extensive use of spacers and/or those Technomic stems in the 'up periscope' mode.       Date: 28 Jun 2007 14:02:52 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Luigi de Guzman wrote: > > Chalo wrote: > > > > Consider your choice carefully, lest the Grant eventually talk you > > into using a Portuguese cork saddle and Malaysian brake hoods molded > > from gutta-percha. > > "the" Grant, as in the guy at Rivendell? The same. Le Grand Grant, duc de Rivendel. Le Rumpkin gras. Ma=EEtre des cuirs, des laques, et des ficelles de chanvre. > Not even all of his bikes have > level top tubes; according to their own specs, the Atlantis top tube > slopes up 2 degrees, in an effort to get the bars up to a useful place. You sure that's not a side effect of the bitchin' suspension-corrected lugged box-crown Rivendell hucking forks? Chalo       Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:35:53 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182898335.032193.49...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > In article > > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > > , > > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes. > > I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me? > > -- > Michael Press- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe- clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind, brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is what I expected over here. On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality now. Chat with ya later, Joe         Date: 26 Jun 2007 21:48:19 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182904553.547370.164370@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com > , Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 26, 4:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article > > <1182898335.032193.49...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, > > Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > In article > > > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > > > , > > > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > > > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > > > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes. > > > > I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me? > > Actually, the long wheelbase reference is misguided. Even a touring > bike with with fat tires, fenders and 700c wheels is going to have toe- > clip overlap if the toptube isn't long or the fork isn't kicked out > enough.The point of 650B on smaller bikes is to have a shortish > toptube, not-too-slack fork, fat tires and fenders on a roadbike > without TCO. The poster [I've lost track of who it was] wanted to know > why everyone else thinks 700c is fine on small frames. I don't think > these issues are part of the design principle of your average 52cm > Trek road bike, therefore 700c is good enough. Incidentally, I don't > personally think TCO is a huge problem, hence I'm getting a small > Rivendell custom with 700c wheels. I'm just attempting to impress upon > unimpressable people that there is an actual design reason behind the > Country Bikes that are being placed between the road and touring bikes > in Rivendell's line. Apparently this qualifies me as myopic, blind, > brainwashed and a Rivbot which, as you'll recall many ages ago, is > what I expected over here. > > On a completely different note, there's some sad/bad stuff going on > around me right now and this silly little discussion has been a > surprisingly satifying diversion from it all for the past week. Thank > you all for your participation in a thread I started called - believe > it or not - Good Wheels, but I probably should get back to reality > now. Happy to help, and thanks for elaborating. Toe clip overlap is a feature of my bicycle life, an occasional wake-up-call, and not worth crossing the street to fix. Regarding your trials, you need to take care of yourself: buy a bottle of good wine, or a good meal, or a something you have on your list. You are wise to involve yourself with others. -- Michael Press       Date: 26 Jun 2007 13:02:55 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote: > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! > >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) > > >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, > > > It's a couple of things. > > > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google > > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. > > > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) > > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor > > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery > > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new > > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same > > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) > > >> I met Grant Peterson, > >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and > >> he's > >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've talked > >> to > >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian > >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not like > >> they're making tons of money at this. > > > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a > > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and > > calling it ice cream. YMMV. > > I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone > Bicycles. ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much? We'll never know. >Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting > with. > I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that?         Date: 26 Jun 2007 14:01:09 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message news:1182888175.374843.152610@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 26, 1:16 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in >> >> message >> >> >>news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! >> >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) >> >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, >> >> > It's a couple of things. >> >> > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google >> > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. >> >> > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) >> > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor >> > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery >> > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new >> > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same >> > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) >> >> >> I met Grant Peterson, >> >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and >> >> he's >> >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've >> >> talked >> >> to >> >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian >> >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not >> >> like >> >> they're making tons of money at this. >> >> > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a >> > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and >> > calling it ice cream. YMMV. >> >> I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone >> Bicycles. > > ISTR he was the sales manager. Did he have some input? Sure. How much? > We'll never know. > > >>Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting >> with. >> I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". > > So now you've taken the comparison with Eisentraut, Bruce Gordon, > etc., out of the discussion and introduced Scot Nicol. Why is that? > Scott was much like Peterson, I don't believe he's a master craftsman like Slawta, Gordon, Eisentraut, Sachs, but he had ideas just like Peterson has. It's all there if you do your research and know your bike history, so I'm surprised you asked that. -tom   Date: 22 Jun 2007 09:51:44 From: Hank Wirtz Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 8:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > -- > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > ride and durability of steel. > > Joe I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that I'm going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon fork, Ti- rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 stupid-light (for me and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I can get the thing under 20 lbs. I wouldn't dream of putting a carbon fork or a non-Brooks saddle on my PX-10, but my only rule for the Guerciotti will be, there are no rules. If it's raining, or if the pavement's cruddy, I have three other bikes I can ride for that. This will be the Light & Fast bike.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 13:10:24 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182531104.117123.162910@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com >, Hank Wirtz <hank@wirtznet.net > wrote: > I just bought a NOS Guerciotti with lugged Columbus SL tubing that > I'm going to build up with basically the same philosophy. Carbon > fork, Ti- rail saddle, 2007 Veloce CT group, and my 28/32 > stupid-light (for me and my 235 lbs) sewup wheels. I'm gonna see if I > can get the thing under 20 lbs. Should be "doable." After all, my wife's 53 cm Heron (a former Rivendell spin-off company) weighs barely over 20 lbs with a steel fork and "retro" components (Superbe crank, derailleurs, brakes and freewheel; Phil hubs, 32 or 36 spokes, MA2 rims; 700 x 28 tires; Brooks Pro S saddle; Nitto bars and stem). Todd Kuzma managed to get his Heron down to 16 lbs or something like that- not bad for a bike made from Reynolds 531. Sub 20 lbs was easy to do 30 years ago, I don't know why it seems to be such a big deal to achieve this now.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 09:27:23 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu > wrote: > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how > >> twine can be involved.... > > >> -- > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should actually > use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the 20th century, I > suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and leather (or cloth?) > bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > -- And rod-actuated FDs!   Date: 22 Jun 2007 09:26:26 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 22, 10:54 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > > drivetrain with brifters. > > > -- > > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful > > I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. > > That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, > lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run > friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a > frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road > bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with > whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. > I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the > ride and durability of steel. > I couldn't agree more! You might want to look into Waterford as an altenative to a RivenSchtick. Seem like it might be more up your alley.   Date: 22 Jun 2007 08:54:52 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels > Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the > back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail > saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed > drivetrain with brifters. > > -- > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia > The weather is here, wish you were beautiful I love it! But then I'm a '57 Chevy on a C6 Vette chassis kinda guy. That's pretty much my plan. Modern drivetrain, carbon seatpost, lightweight wheels. There's no reason a lugged steel bike has to run friction shifters, 7-speed freewheels and touring wheels. It's just a frame-material and tube-joining choice. When I first got into road bikes in the early '90s, most high-end bikes were lugged steel with whatever components were the thing then. Mostly 8-speed Dura-Ace STI. I have no use for the retro thing. I just like pretty lugs and the ride and durability of steel. Joe   Date: 22 Jun 2007 08:18:55 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote: > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > >inconsistent. > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and > > you'll have a lifetime companion. > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks, > either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for > you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a > ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's > favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously-- I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is. Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even funny.     Date: 22 Jun 2007 20:57:34 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182525535.453357.42000@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > > >inconsistent. > > > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and > > > you'll have a lifetime companion. > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks, > > either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for > > you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a > > ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's > > favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and > waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never > comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one > place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There > is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. > You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your > urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. Seriously-- > I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a couple > months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by flogging > it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me to have it > on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage garbage is. > Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm of foam or > two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's not even > funny. You do not like them. Your generalizations are unfounded. -- Michael Press     Date: 22 Jun 2007 10:37:03 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182525535.453357.42000@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 7:37 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dk...@4ax.com>, > > John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter > > > <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > > >inconsistent. > > > > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding > > > and you'll have a lifetime companion. > > > > If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a > > Brooks, either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not > > the saddle for you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of > > the box, maybe a ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The > > Brooks Pro S is my wife's favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes > > sitting one any other saddle). > > I've put 10K on a couple of B17s and 5K on this particular Flyer and > waiting for the comfort to set in. The B17s were bearable, but never > comfy. It's just a horrible design to begin with. There is only one > place of a single square cm for each ischia to find comfort in. There > is the idiotic rail in back with the double idiotic exposed rivets. > You either slide forward, or tilt up the horn enough to ovalize your > urethra. Firmness changes according to the day's humidity. I don't experience any of these problems with my Brooks Pros (I have four or five of them). I find the B.17 to be less comfortable- it is too wide and the top is too flexible. I've never ridden a Flyer but the springs give me pause- it'd take a lot of farting around to find the right angle. > Seriously-- I'm at the point where I hate these things. I tried for a > couple months to get rid of my last Brooks, this particular Flyer by > flogging it on Craigslist for very very cheap, but fate means for me > to have it on my beer bike to remind me of what overrated vintage > garbage is. Well designed nylon saddle shells covered thinly in a mm > of foam or two and some leather are so far superior to Brooks, it's > not even funny. Well, obviously for you Brooks saddles are not the right ones. But you are making the logical error of generalizing your particular situation to a universal one. While you may find this hard to believe, Brooks saddles are very comfortable for many people- perhaps millions of people, given how long Brooks has been in business. If the saddles were such crap as you say, market forces would have driven the company out of business. As it was, the weight-weeny attitude almost did put them out of business a little over 10 years ago. A friend who owns a bike shop finds Brooks saddles to be one of his biggest selling items and his customers have been almost without complaint about them. And I am not sure about fate- is Fate holding a gun to your head forcing you to keep this hated saddle on your bike? Shit fire, man, yank that thing off of there and put a saddle you like on that bike.       Date: 25 Jun 2007 10:43:01 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: > > Chalo wrote: > > > Whether or not your remark above is useful depends at least in part in > where you fall in terms of "most men." Is your body sized like most > men? I'd be willing to bet that I'm moster than you and landotter combined! Chalo   Date: 22 Jun 2007 04:01:29 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 10:37 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu > wrote: > landotter wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > >> How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: > > <snip> > > >> Don't forget the twine! > > >> Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant > > Every single Rivendell I've > > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. > > Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how > twine can be involved.... > > -- >From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs or, for the cautious; http://preview.tinyurl.com/2sgxxs     Date: 22 Jun 2007 22:51:10 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182510089.302072.173450@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com > , Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 10:37 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu> > wrote: > > landotter wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > >> How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: > > > > <snip> > > > > >> Don't forget the twine! > > > > >> Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant > > > Every single Rivendell I've > > > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > > > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. > > > > Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how > > twine can be involved.... > > > > -- > > >From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > or, for the cautious; > > http://preview.tinyurl.com/2sgxxs I tape from the stem to the drop ends. When I tried the other direction the hold down at the stem end of the job always nagged at me, looking kind of unfinished. Hemp twine would do the same thing. -- Michael Press     Date: 22 Jun 2007 12:07:39 From: David L. Johnson Subject: Re: Good wheels Ozark Bicycle wrote: >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how >> twine can be involved.... >> >> -- > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using leather brake pads and wooden rims? -- David L. Johnson As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Albert Einstein       Date: 28 Jun 2007 11:59:56 From: Luigi de Guzman Subject: Re: Good wheels On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:44:45 +0000, Chalo wrote: > Consider your choice carefully, lest the Grant eventually talk you > into using a Portuguese cork saddle and Malaysian brake hoods molded > from gutta-percha. "the" Grant, as in the guy at Rivendell? Not even all of his bikes have level top tubes; according to their own specs, the Atlantis top tube slopes up 2 degrees, in an effort to get the bars up to a useful place. -Luigi -- Luigi de Guzman http://ouij.livejournal.com       Date: 28 Jun 2007 09:44:45 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Michael Press wrote: > > I am a slave to my fashion sense. > I will only ride a frame with a horizontal top tube. When you get older and want your bars higher, are you going to relent on this point, or will you use one of those goofy-looking Technomic stems, or will you just flip your drop bars upside down, DUI style? Consider your choice carefully, lest the Grant eventually talk you into using a Portuguese cork saddle and Malaysian brake hoods molded from gutta-percha. [Audience chants: "D-U-I! D-U-I! D-U-I!....] Chalo         Date: 28 Jun 2007 20:22:02 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1183023885.215791.197920@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com > , Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote: > Michael Press wrote: > > > > I am a slave to my fashion sense. > > I will only ride a frame with a horizontal top tube. > > When you get older and want your bars higher, are you going to relent > on this point, or will you use one of those goofy-looking Technomic > stems, or will you just flip your drop bars upside down, DUI style? I have seen enough older guys around here running low bars so that I can burn that bridge when I get to it. > Consider your choice carefully, lest the Grant eventually talk you > into using a Portuguese cork saddle and Malaysian brake hoods molded > from gutta-percha. > > [Audience chants: "D-U-I! D-U-I! D-U-I!....] D-I-Y! D-I-Y! D-I-Y! Uhhh ... D-U-I! D-U-I! D-U-I! -- Michael Press       Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:50:58 From: Jay Beattie Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 3:52 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > , > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > > -- > > Michael Press > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.- Hide quoted text - This thread comes at an odd time because that racks at work have recently filled with all sorts of fat tire commuters and touring bikes. From the Novara Transfer at $599 with a dynohub and light, various versions of the Pilot and Portland and all sorts of other touring bikes. The Poprad (a cross bike) is very popular, probably because so many people race cross in PDX. I don't think there is any shortage of solid touring-type bikes with lots of fender clearance, rack mounts, wide tires, etc. I think the market is better than it was twenty years ago. -- Jay Beattie.       Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:02:24 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 5:52 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > , > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > > -- > > Michael Press > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I wonder, is there a place to send a Riv-bot to have them deprogrammed? ;-)       Date: 26 Jun 2007 15:52:15 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > , > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > -- > Michael Press They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes.         Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:49:31 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182898335.032193.49510@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com >, Joe Bernard <josephrbernard@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 26, 3:42 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article > > <1182876966.891400.299...@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > > , > > Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > > > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > > > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > > > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. > > > > One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. > > They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. > > > > Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm > > seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! > > They were thinking they don't give a crap about wide tires, fenders > and no TCO on non-touring-wheelbase bikes. I do not get your drift. Please, would you spell it out for me? -- Michael Press       Date: 26 Jun 2007 10:53:55 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote: > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message > > news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > > > >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! > > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) > > Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, It's a couple of things. One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) > I met Grant Peterson, > he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and he's > fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've talked to > quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian > Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not like > they're making tons of money at this. I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and calling it ice cream. YMMV.         Date: 26 Jun 2007 11:16:37 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message news:1182880435.589380.63830@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 26, 12:33 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! >> > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) >> >> Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, > > It's a couple of things. > > One is the whole "Riv cult". You can get a taste on one of the Google > Groups (RBW Owners?). I suggest doing so on an empty stomach. > > The second is my opinion that Riv has abandoned their (alleged) > "founding principles" of sensible, practical versatile bikes in favor > of niche marketing (in the form of leading consumers down the slippery > slope of weirdly sized wheels and tires *and* in inventing new > "catergories" of bikes in the hope of, basically, selling the same > frame to the same person a second [third? fourth?] time.) > > >> I met Grant Peterson, >> he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and >> he's >> fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've talked >> to >> quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian >> Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not like >> they're making tons of money at this. > > I would not put Grant Peterson, a salesman, in the same company as a > "master craftsman", unless the art was shoveling bovine excrement and > calling it ice cream. YMMV. > I believe Grant Peterson was a designer when he was with Bridgestone Bicycles. Scott Nicol (founder of Ibis Cycles) is another I enjoyed chatting with. I suppose he's another you would classify as "niche marketing". -tom   Date: 21 Jun 2007 20:39:17 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 7:47 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: > .... > There's something wrong with Tressostar? It and similar products have > been in use for a long time and work fine. Maybe you preferred the > Grab-On foam handlebar covers that were so popular in the late 1970s. I > installed a lot of that crap on Ross bikes at the shop.... Kewl grips!!! <http://www.grabongrips.com/index.php? main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=23 >. The other option is to wrap your bars in the handyman's secret weapon: duct tape. It is even more impressive if the drop bars are inverted, DUI cyclist style. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful   Date: 21 Jun 2007 20:13:23 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 2:46 pm, landotter who? wrote: > > Snort. That's about right. I appreciate the idealization of Japanese > bike boom bikes which is one element of the Riv recipe. Those bikes > were utilitarian in design and proletarian in price. They've also > helped reintroduce all sorts of sensible things to the bicycle > community--but also so much retarded myth. Every single Rivendell I've > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up.... Something in me wants to get a Rivendell, and put a Renn disc on the back and a Hed Trispoke on the front, along with the skinniest Ti-rail saddle on a carbon fiber seat post. It would also have a ten-speed drivetrain with brifters. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful   Date: 21 Jun 2007 14:51:57 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 12:46 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: > > > All bikes will have Brooks saddles, mostly B-17, in honey > > > All bikes will have overpriced Nitto Racks > > > All bikes will have seriously overpriced, cutesy poo Nigel Smyth bags > > > Serious aspirants will want weirdly sized French tires > > > Don't forget the twine! > > > Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant > > Snort. That's about right. I appreciate the idealization of Japanese > bike boom bikes which is one element of the Riv recipe. Those bikes > were utilitarian in design and proletarian in price. They've also > helped reintroduce all sorts of sensible things to the bicycle > community--but also so much retarded myth. Every single Rivendell I've > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. > > Like I mentioned in a post a while back--the Gunnar Sport seems to me > to be more of the sensible heir to the 80s sport touring bike > tradition. I combines practicality, and discards tedious fussiness > like hand waxed and crocheted cable housing runs. > > FWIW, I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > inconsistent. Woohoo! My butt likes Unicanitors/Rolls/Turbos and > similar saddles. The obsession of the Rivendites with the Brooks > saddle, which does work for a minority of butts--to the point of > people riding these saddles in pain and obligation as some sort of > secret perineal hair shirt--is eye rollingly silly. And the OP says....wanna talk about wheels? I understand the Riv thing can be taken to cult levels, just as the Trek /USPS thing was a few years ago, but, geez you guys, some people just prefer one bike over another. The same with saddles. I've tried Flites, 02Airs, Body Geometry and plenty of other saddles. For me, Brooks isn't a compromise of style over comfort; it's a compromise of comfort over weight. I would rather put a lightweight saddle on a lightweight steel bike, but the heavier one works for me. Can't argue about twine and tweed bags, though. To each his own and all that, but, not for me. Joe     Date: 21 Jun 2007 18:02:08 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 4:51 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 21, 12:46 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: > > > > All bikes will have Brooks saddles, mostly B-17, in honey > > > > All bikes will have overpriced Nitto Racks > > > > All bikes will have seriously overpriced, cutesy poo Nigel Smyth bags > > > > Serious aspirants will want weirdly sized French tires > > > > Don't forget the twine! > > > > Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant > > > Snort. That's about right. I appreciate the idealization of Japanese > > bike boom bikes which is one element of the Riv recipe. Those bikes > > were utilitarian in design and proletarian in price. They've also > > helped reintroduce all sorts of sensible things to the bicycle > > community--but also so much retarded myth. Every single Rivendell I've > > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. > > > Like I mentioned in a post a while back--the Gunnar Sport seems to me > > to be more of the sensible heir to the 80s sport touring bike > > tradition. I combines practicality, and discards tedious fussiness > > like hand waxed and crocheted cable housing runs. > > > FWIW, I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > > always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > > inconsistent. Woohoo! My butt likes Unicanitors/Rolls/Turbos and > > similar saddles. The obsession of the Rivendites with the Brooks > > saddle, which does work for a minority of butts--to the point of > > people riding these saddles in pain and obligation as some sort of > > secret perineal hair shirt--is eye rollingly silly. > > And the OP says....wanna talk about wheels? I understand the Riv thing > can be taken to cult levels, just as the Trek /USPS thing was a few > years ago, but, geez you guys, some people just prefer one bike over > another. Sorry, we were just joking around.....topic drift, etc. And, FWIW, all my bikes are steel and I appreciate their many virtues. You asked, in part, about putting modern, low-spoke count wheels on a traditional "rivendell style" bike. I just recently saw a pic of some Mavic or the other on a Riv; IMO, it looked silly, like putting mags and low aspect ratio tires on a Jag XK120. Might work fine, but looks dumb. > The same with saddles. I've tried Flites, 02Airs, Body > Geometry and plenty of other saddles. For me, Brooks isn't a > compromise of style over comfort; it's a compromise of comfort over > weight. I would rather put a lightweight saddle on a lightweight steel > bike, but the heavier one works for me. I have an Ideale 92 (pretty much a French B-17) on one of my bikes. Feels fine and I like the vintage look on that vintage (ca. 1975) bike. But, IMO, it's no more comfy than the San Marco Regals and San Marco Lazer on my other bikes. IMO, the whole slavish devotion to Brooks is just another example of a part-of-the-herd cult thing. YMMV. > Can't argue about twine and > tweed bags, though. To each his own and all that, but, not for me. >   Date: 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > > How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: > > All bikes will have Brooks saddles, mostly B-17, in honey > > All bikes will have overpriced Nitto Racks > > All bikes will have seriously overpriced, cutesy poo Nigel Smyth bags > > Serious aspirants will want weirdly sized French tires > > Don't forget the twine! > > Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant Snort. That's about right. I appreciate the idealization of Japanese bike boom bikes which is one element of the Riv recipe. Those bikes were utilitarian in design and proletarian in price. They've also helped reintroduce all sorts of sensible things to the bicycle community--but also so much retarded myth. Every single Rivendell I've seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. Like I mentioned in a post a while back--the Gunnar Sport seems to me to be more of the sensible heir to the 80s sport touring bike tradition. I combines practicality, and discards tedious fussiness like hand waxed and crocheted cable housing runs. FWIW, I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and inconsistent. Woohoo! My butt likes Unicanitors/Rolls/Turbos and similar saddles. The obsession of the Rivendites with the Brooks saddle, which does work for a minority of butts--to the point of people riding these saddles in pain and obligation as some sort of secret perineal hair shirt--is eye rollingly silly.     Date: 21 Jun 2007 23:37:38 From: David L. Johnson Subject: Re: Good wheels landotter wrote: > On Jun 21, 2:25 pm, Ozark Bicycle > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > >> How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: <snip > >> Don't forget the twine! >> >> Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant > Every single Rivendell I've > seen built up around here has had the twine job on the bars. It's not > functional, but it's ugly--how clever! But the sheep lap it up. Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble understanding how twine can be involved.... -- David L. Johnson And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [1 Corinth. 13:2]       Date: 26 Jun 2007 20:17:00 From: Johnny Sunset Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 10:50 am, landotter? wrote: > On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard wrote: > ...The Homer Simpson is just a > design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake. The "Homer Simpson" should be the perfect bicycle for "D'oh Boy". > > Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller? > > Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! Damn right! -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia The weather is here, wish you were beautiful       Date: 26 Jun 2007 15:15:52 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 8:50 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > > Bike"? > > > > > Hardly worth > > > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > > > customers. > > > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, > > fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same > > caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c > > with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small > > Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis > > Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz, > and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to > mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake. > > > and > > 26" wheels are slow. > > Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle) > because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can > actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or > Tarjay. > > >Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, > > Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point? > > > so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a > > smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I > > have to explain everything? > > > By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells > > lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS > > and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their > > bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different > > models? > > It's the hypocrisy. They pretty much were an antidote to such niche > bikes, but now they're doing exactly that. The Rambouillet and > Atlantis were and are sweet, if overpriced/hyped, do-everything bikes. > The latter a bit stouter and the former slightly more sporting. Wanna > do a lot of country lanes? Either is fine, and the latter will take a > fatter tires if you really need the cush. The Homer Simpson is just a > design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake. > > > > > Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller? > > Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Really, cantis are just fine. So the fact that they're a pain to set up, squeal too much, and I hit my heels on them are just my problem and I should get over it because you think they're fine. 26" wheels are "not noticeably slow", so I should just stop noticing it when I have better choices. And the reason why i should stop noticing it is 'cause I can get 'em at Wal-Mart. Nobody's recommending 650B for world tours. 26" is probably best for that. But for a nice 30-150 mile ride in the country, any size wheel you want is just fine. Liking Rivendells and Grant Petersen's ideas doesn't make anyone an apologist. That's like saying I'm a Studio 60 or an Al Gore apologist just because I like that show and that politician. Some Rivendell/ Grant ideas don't work for me, Studio 60 was seriously flawed, and Al ran a horrible campaign in 2000. Nevertheless, I still appreciate them all. That's not apologia, it's just good taste.       Date: 26 Jun 2007 10:12:50 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 10:50 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > > Bike"? > > > > > Hardly worth > > > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > > > customers. > > > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, > > fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same > > caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c > > with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small > > Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis > > Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz, > and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to > mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake. > > > and > > 26" wheels are slow. > > Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle) > because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can > actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or > Tarjay. > > >Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, > > Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point? > > > so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a > > smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I > > have to explain everything? > > > By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells > > lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS > > and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their > > bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different > > models? > > It's the hypocrisy. They pretty much were an antidote to such niche > bikes, but now they're doing exactly that. Bingo! > The Rambouillet and > Atlantis were and are sweet, if overpriced/hyped, do-everything bikes. > The latter a bit stouter and the former slightly more sporting. Wanna > do a lot of country lanes? Either is fine, and the latter will take a > fatter tires if you really need the cush. The Homer Simpson is just a > design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake. IMO, Homer is an icon for a break with Riv's past. The Rambouillet has been discontinued ("put to sleep" is the oh-so-cutesy-poo phrase used in Hobbitville). Can the Atlantis be far behind? Oh, and there's a 650B *tandem* in the works (is that absurd, or what?). So, it's pretty clear that Riv will be all 650b all the time in the near future. And until the next fad. > > > > > Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller? > > Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! Sic semper hobbits! ;-)         Date: 26 Jun 2007 10:33:13 From: Tom Nakashima Subject: Re: Good wheels "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message news:1182877970.183750.174610@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... >> >> Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun! > Sic semper hobbits! ;-) Not sure why you keep dissing Rivendell Bicycles, I met Grant Peterson, he's a very nice person. He had a vision to own a bicycle company, and he's fulfilling his dream. I don't see anything wrong with that. I've talked to quite a few master craftsman, Albert Eisentraut, Richard Sachs, Brian Bayless, John Slawta, Bruce Gordon, Joe Bell to name a few, it's not like they're making tons of money at this. -tom       Date: 26 Jun 2007 09:59:17 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > Bike"? > > > > Hardly worth > > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > > customers. > > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, > fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same > caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c > with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small > Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis and > 26" wheels are slow. Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, > so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a > smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I > have to explain everything? Nah, the Grant does it for you. I'd say you were brainwashed, but that requires that you have a.....ahhh....never mind. > > By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells > lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS > and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their > bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different > models? > > Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -       Date: 26 Jun 2007 09:56:06 From: Chris Nelson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 26, 12:40 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells > lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS > and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their > bikes. You forgot Trail bike which is wedged between Cross Country and All Mountain and you forgot Freerider which is wedged between All Mountain and DH. They may have overdone this a bit as far as categories, but all these different style bikes are designed to handle different terrain which varies from a fireroad to riding off a cliff and several stops in between. Once you identify the type of terrain you will be riding, you shop accross different brands in a particular category as most manufacturers pretty much follow the same category definitions. > Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different > models? Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and have multiple eyelets for adding racks. Chris         Date: 26 Jun 2007 15:42:00 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182876966.891400.299150@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com > , Chris Nelson <smilin321@hotmail.com > wrote: > Rivendell, on the other hand, builds a dizzying number of models that > all basically do the same thing. Namely, they can handle the road and > light off-road duties, have clearance for wide tires and fenders and > have multiple eyelets for adding racks. One 700C model is made in 570 mm seat tube minimum. They tell us to choose a 650B wheel model for smaller seat tubes. Crikey. All those deluded manufacturers building 520 mm seat tube frames on ISO 630 wheels. What were they thinking! -- Michael Press       Date: 26 Jun 2007 15:50:17 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > Bike"? > > > > Hardly worth > > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > > customers. > > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, > fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same > caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c > with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small > Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz, and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake. > and > 26" wheels are slow. Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle) because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or Tarjay. >Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point? > so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a > smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I > have to explain everything? > > By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells > lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS > and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their > bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different > models? It's the hypocrisy. They pretty much were an antidote to such niche bikes, but now they're doing exactly that. The Rambouillet and Atlantis were and are sweet, if overpriced/hyped, do-everything bikes. The latter a bit stouter and the former slightly more sporting. Wanna do a lot of country lanes? Either is fine, and the latter will take a fatter tires if you really need the cush. The Homer Simpson is just a design exercise in wankery so that they could use a particular brake. > > Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller? Nah, dismissing a Rivendell apologist is much more fun!         Date: 26 Jun 2007 14:56:18 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182873017.909217.227610@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com > , landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 25, 11:40 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > > Bike"? > > > > > > Hardly worth > > > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > > > customers. > > > > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, > > fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same > > caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c > > with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small > > Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis > > Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz, > and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to > mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake. > > > and > > 26" wheels are slow. > > Not noticeably so. They're a great choice on a "country bike" (giggle) > because when you're in the country and get a sidewall tear, you can > actually get perfectly serviceable 26" street tires at Wally World or > Tarjay. > > >Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, > > Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point? 650B are 584 mm 26 " are 559 mm --------------- difference = 25 mm. That is a lot to make up. I do nor argue for or against any tire choice. -- Michael Press           Date: 26 Jun 2007 22:41:03 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels -snip- >> Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, > landotter <landotter@gmail.com> wrote: >> Fat slick 26" tires approach that of 700c tires as well. Your point? Michael Press wrote: > 650B are 584 mm > 26 " are 559 mm > --------------- > difference = 25 mm. > That is a lot to make up. > I do nor argue for or against any tire choice. You're correct on those rim diameters and 700C are 622mm. Even so, ample 559 or 650B tires really can be comparable to a 700-20 tire at the outside. 26x2.4 are bigger. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971         Date: 26 Jun 2007 14:51:31 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182873017.909217.227610@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com > , landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > Irrational to hate cantis. Set up well, they're practical, low futz, > and modulate nicely. They even have adjustable leverage, not to > mention that I think they're the best looking style of brake. And to me they look clunky. waddayagunnado? Absolutely every choice I make on my bicycles must pass an appearance test. I am a slave to my fashion sense. I will only ride a frame with a horizontal top tube. I am 100% certifiably irrational on bicycle looks. In my defense: I do not condemn other rider's choices. -- Michael Press       Date: 25 Jun 2007 08:33:17 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 10:12 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 25, 5:50 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > > Bike"? > > /snort > > I was riding the grassy access roads in my local wetlands/woods a few > days ago on my $500 Redline fixie and stopped for a few minutes to > pick some berries for a snack and drink some water. I leaned my bike > up against a tree at the bottom of a small rolling hill, where the > trees got thicker coming out of the wetlands and as I was picking away > at the berries I looked up as the sun glinted off my bike just so as > it was dipping in the sky, and the grass was lushly green in an > atmosphere of near pink/orange light--and I thought, "dood! I've got a > country bike now! Friggin awesome!" Did ya see any Hobbits lurking in the bushes? Were thet wearing Vans and a seersucker shirt? ;-) > A while ago I took a ride downtown > on the same bike and contextualized it as a, "grim urban warrior." All > this versatility, at the same low price. *g*- Hide quoted text - > > Ya know, once upon a time, I was pretty supportive of the Riv thing. Back then, they promoted their bikes as "all rounders" (even had that as a model name); bikes that could go anywhere, do anything. As opposed to the very specialized bikes from other sources. Now, they have become that which they inveighed against, as they invent new "categories" so they can sell a new bike to the same small bunch of buyers. Even worse, really, with those #^*~% non-standard wheels and tires. IMO, alot of people are gonna be left in the lurch a few years down the road when this 650B fad fades and they become very hard to find.     Date: 21 Jun 2007 19:01:48 From: John Forrest Tomlinson Subject: Re: Good wheels On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and >inconsistent. Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and you'll have a lifetime companion. >Woohoo! My butt likes Unicanitors/Rolls/Turbos and >similar saddles. Is instant gratification all you care about? Sheesh. -- JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com ****************************       Date: 21 Jun 2007 19:37:49 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <ep0m73pn7onanlnef53k3r0fpbn17dkl6a@4ax.com >, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetremove@jt10000.com > wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:46:24 -0000, landotter <landotter@gmail.com> > wrote: > > >I took two short rides on a Brooks saddle last night, and as > >always--they look great, but feel like shit and are fussy and > >inconsistent. > > Not long enough -- give it three or five years of solid riding and > you'll have a lifetime companion. If it takes more than a half dozen rides to be comfortable on a Brooks, either it's set up seriously incorrectly or it's just not the saddle for you. I find the Brooks Pro to be comfortable out of the box, maybe a ride or three is necessary to dial it in. The Brooks Pro S is my wife's favorite saddle (as in, she dislikes sitting one any other saddle). My favorite saddle is a Brooks Team Pro I bought in 1977. 30 years and maybe 100,000 miles so far. I've never found any plastic saddle that was comfortable for 100 miles, and I've tried probably a dozen; the old Rolls was the best of a bad lot. The Lepper Voyageur isn't bad, either, but it's got a number of design flaws that affect its longevity. I can ride 100 miles on the Voyageur without discomfort, but 150 miles would be maybe a bit much. OTOH I have a friend who rides the narrowest of ass hatchets (one of those 90's clipped-corner things with no real rails) and is perfectly comfortable for rides of any length. He never complains of saddle discomfort and just rode a 600 km brevet on it. And another friend who will ride nothing but Regals. A third who prefers Flites to any other saddle. It's great that there are options out there. If you're thinking about your saddle while you're out for a ride, you've got the wrong saddle.   Date: 21 Jun 2007 12:25:35 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 1:57 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 1:36 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 21, 11:05 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > > The Hobbits are forming a posse and lynch mob; better get outta Dodge > > and lay low. ;-) > > I repent, then. 32H front 36 rear 105 hubs with DB Sapim/DT/Wheelsmith > spokes on polish CR18 hoops. 3X on both ends. Now put away that ball > of hemp twine, before I I start turning Californians into > Undergroundians.- How to be a "rugged individualist", Riv-style: All bikes will have Brooks saddles, mostly B-17, in honey All bikes will have overpriced Nitto Racks All bikes will have seriously overpriced, cutesy poo Nigel Smyth bags Serious aspirants will want weirdly sized French tires Don't forget the twine! Never, ever, ever, criticize Chairman gRant     Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:40:12 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 3:50 am, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > Bike"? > > > Hardly worth > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > customers. > > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Ozark Ozark, Ozark. 650B wheels are for smaller frames with fat tires, fenders and no toe-clip overlap [TCO]. A. Homer Hilson is the same caliper-brake style of bike, but the frame is big enough to run 700c with the same fat-tire/fender/ no-TCO feature. Can you make a small Country Bike with cantis and 26" wheels? Sure, but I hate cantis and 26" wheels are slow. Fat 650Bs are the same diameter as skinny 700c, so you get the same big-wheel momentum with a wheelset that fits a smaller frame better [assuming you want fat tires and fenders]. Do I have to explain everything? By the way, Trek and Cannondale and just about everybody else sells lots of different models, including cross-country, DH, "Hucking", SS and something called "All Mountain" MTBs to people who like their bikes. Why is it a problem for Rivendell to have several different models? Does anybody want to talk about wheels? Jobst? Jim Beam? Bueller?       Date: 28 Jun 2007 07:38:57 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 28, 2:39 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1183004392.530157.263...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com> > , > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 27, 6:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > In article > > > <1182986386.586148.29...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > > In article > > > > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > > > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie > > > > .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. > > > That's one of those foods that tastes just like it sounds. Blech. > > Ah, but what does it _look_ like? Maggots with a tan.     Date: 25 Jun 2007 15:12:02 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 5:50 am, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. > > Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, > pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? > > Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and > boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country > Bike"? /snort I was riding the grassy access roads in my local wetlands/woods a few days ago on my $500 Redline fixie and stopped for a few minutes to pick some berries for a snack and drink some water. I leaned my bike up against a tree at the bottom of a small rolling hill, where the trees got thicker coming out of the wetlands and as I was picking away at the berries I looked up as the sun glinted off my bike just so as it was dipping in the sky, and the grass was lushly green in an atmosphere of near pink/orange light--and I thought, "dood! I've got a country bike now! Friggin awesome!" A while ago I took a ride downtown on the same bike and contextualized it as a, "grim urban warrior." All this versatility, at the same low price. *g*     Date: 25 Jun 2007 03:50:22 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > > exactly make a trend. > > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. Aside from the annoyingly different, non-standard wheel size, what, pray tell, is "pretty unique" about those bikes? Oh, and what about "Homer Hilson", doesn't he use those dull and boring, standard 700c wheels? Is he still a unique entity, a "Country Bike"? > Hardly worth > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > customers. > None are so blind as those who will not see. :-(     Date: 25 Jun 2007 03:45:47 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 12:48 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. Hardly worth > > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > > customers. > > Hmmm... smaller wheels, longer brakes.... > > Don't you mean "when Grant decided to figure out a way to sell the > same frame to the same customers a second time"? Yeah, that's the way it seems to me. If ya can't find new customers, load up the loyal faithful...... > > Sounds like something even less noteworthy than a gratuitous category > of bike to me. > > Chalo     Date: 25 Jun 2007 05:48:50 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Joe Bernard wrote: > > The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels > and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- > long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. Hardly worth > tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing > customers. Hmmm... smaller wheels, longer brakes.... Don't you mean "when Grant decided to figure out a way to sell the same frame to the same customers a second time"? Sounds like something even less noteworthy than a gratuitous category of bike to me. Chalo   Date: 21 Jun 2007 18:57:34 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 1:36 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 11:05 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > The Hobbits are forming a posse and lynch mob; better get outta Dodge > and lay low. ;-) I repent, then. 32H front 36 rear 105 hubs with DB Sapim/DT/Wheelsmith spokes on polish CR18 hoops. 3X on both ends. Now put away that ball of hemp twine, before I I start turning Californians into Undergroundians.   Date: 21 Jun 2007 11:45:56 From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 8:26 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 21, 9:05 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. > > No, I won't be going too deep into Rivland. Black cork tape will do > fine thanks. I will be using a retarded Brooks saddle, though. Ass Hatchets are de rigeur. Joseph   Date: 21 Jun 2007 11:36:12 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 11:05 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. The Hobbits are forming a posse and lynch mob; better get outta Dodge and lay low. ;-)     Date: 25 Jun 2007 19:42:50 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 25, 12:24 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > landotter wrote: > > > Chalo wrote: > > > > Fashion being what it is, I reckon that five inches will not be the > > > cool width for a saddle forever. About the time that prospects are > > > looking really grim, I bet the marketeers will decide that a saddle > > > you can actually sit on is the new hotness. > > > > One can always hope, anyway. > > > Five inches is plenty for most male bones. I just hate the smooshy > > padding which makes the hideous slot necessary. > > That assumes that the flesh compressed between the saddle and sit > bones can deal with the implied pressure per area. What works for a > rider of 130 lbs may not be just right at 350 lbs. That doesn't mean > that a foam birthday cake in the approximate shape of a saddle is > appropriate either. OH HELL YES IT IS! I've been needing a good reason to promote my bayonette-lock pastry bag tip compatible cycling shorts!!     Date: 25 Jun 2007 05:44:27 From: Chalo Subject: Re: Good wheels Michael Press wrote: > > Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. ^^^^^^^^^^ Drugs, man... gotta give 'em a rest sometimes. I've been paying close attention to bike shops for over 20 years now, and I have yet to see a new OEM bike with that wheel size. I have seen a passel of touring bikes, though-- all with 559, 622, or 630 wheels. If you care to look back as far as the days when 590 and 597 wheels roamed the earth, you'll find that the racing bikes of those days had longer than 39cm chainstays, too. Chalo       Date: 25 Jun 2007 15:11:57 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels > Michael Press wrote: >> Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. > ^^^^^^^^^^ Chalo wrote: > Drugs, man... gotta give 'em a rest sometimes. > I've been paying close attention to bike shops for over 20 years now, > and I have yet to see a new OEM bike with that wheel size. I have > seen a passel of touring bikes, though-- all with 559, 622, or 630 > wheels. > If you care to look back as far as the days when 590 and 597 wheels > roamed the earth, you'll find that the racing bikes of those days had > longer than 39cm chainstays, too. I wondered about that too. Around here plenty* of originally 584, 590 and 597 bikes are running 700C wheels (a few 559) as the support for 650B, EA3 and EA1 is dismal. As 27-inch but even worse availability and selection As a conversation piece, a collectible or a work of art they have a place. In daily use, the premium of time, energy, frustration and money pushes riders to better supported and less painful formats. * my own bike, changed over in 1972 -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971       Date: 25 Jun 2007 06:32:41 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182750267.455606.299320@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com > , Chalo <chalo.colina@gmail.com > wrote: > Michael Press wrote: > > > > Touring bicycle: 590 wheels. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > Drugs, man... gotta give 'em a rest sometimes. > > I've been paying close attention to bike shops for over 20 years now, > and I have yet to see a new OEM bike with that wheel size. I have > seen a passel of touring bikes, though-- all with 559, 622, or 630 > wheels. > > If you care to look back as far as the days when 590 and 597 wheels > roamed the earth, you'll find that the racing bikes of those days had > longer than 39cm chainstays, too. I meant to write 559. Sorry for the confusion. -- Michael Press     Date: 24 Jun 2007 21:01:41 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 24, 7:46 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Joe Bernard wrote: > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > exactly make a trend. > > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). > > And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling > different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the > same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have > to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a > perfect example of this.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - The Country Bike came about when Grant decided to pursue 650B wheels and center-pull super-long reach brakes, now also augmented by super- long dual-pivots. This makes a pretty unique bike. Hardly worth tossing off as just another "category bike" to sell to existing customers. Joe       Date: 28 Jun 2007 04:24:34 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 8:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 27, 6:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > > In article > > <1182986386.586148.29...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > In article > > > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie > > > .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. > > .....just makes you a regular guy! Who wants normal? I'll have 2 eggs over easy, biscuits and gravy, and a side of bacon. Cue sound man to cork insertion!       Date: 28 Jun 2007 04:19:52 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 6:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182986386.586148.29...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > In article > > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie > > .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. That's one of those foods that tastes just like it sounds. Blech. What next, shall you suggest pecan pie with a smothering of quinoa cooked in gizzard broth? I'll have ice cream, thanks, flavored with real vanilla.         Date: 28 Jun 2007 00:39:05 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1183004392.530157.263190@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com > , landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 27, 6:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > In article > > <1182986386.586148.29...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > > In article > > > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > > > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie > > > > .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. > > That's one of those foods that tastes just like it sounds. Blech. Ah, but what does it _look_ like? > What > next, shall you suggest pecan pie with a smothering of quinoa cooked > in gizzard broth? I'll have ice cream, thanks, flavored with real > vanilla. -- Michael Press       Date: 27 Jun 2007 18:22:55 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 27, 6:35 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article > <1182986386.586148.29...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote: > > > In article > > > <1182951529.189692.247...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > The folksy, passive aggressive > > > > tone doesn't alter that fact. > > > > Garrison Keillor always repelled me too. > > > You sound like you could use some Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie > > .. and a side of hot, buttered, buckwheat groats. .....just makes you a regular guy! > > > "One > > little thing can revive a guy, and that is a piece of rhubarb pie; > > Serve it up, nice and hot; Maybe things aren't as bad as you thought." > > > The passive aggressiveness is is a Scandihoovian thing, we learn it > > from a young age. > > -- > Michael Press     Date: 24 Jun 2007 19:46:29 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 24, 4:32 pm, Peter Cole <peter_c...@comcast.net > wrote: > Joe Bernard wrote: > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > exactly make a trend. > > I have both an 80's Fuji and Cannondale, coincidentally, I also have > frames 15-20 years newer from both. The new frames are called "touring", > the old frames weren't. The geometries are virtually identical. Seems > that all that new frames have done in design is to make the chain stays > as short as possible. I think this makes a bike handle poorly. > > Only one of my long-stayed frames has canti's, the rest are sidepulls. > Really makes little difference. I do prefer the canti's over long reach > sidepulls. Modern frames & brakes have such limited capacities for > things like big tires & fenders. Not all of my bikes have those, but I > like the idea of being able to use them at my option. > > I think bike "categories" are mostly made up by marketeers (like Grant). And, if you are a marketeer whose existance depends on selling different bike models to the same smallish group of people (not the same demographic, but the very same small group of buyers), you have to continually invent new "categories". The "Country Bike" is a perfect example of this.     Date: 24 Jun 2007 11:26:33 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 6:36 pm, Chris Nelson <smilin...@hotmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 23, 1:34 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > > > this year. > > > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > > > redness. > > > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > > > must obey. > > > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > > > bikes came about because of him. > > > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > > > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > > > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > > > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > > > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > exactly make a trend. > > > And speaking of wheels[!], anybody run Easton Circuits? > > > Joe- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Dayum, the "plush/cool" category has been cornered. These guys really > did have you pegged from post #1. Amazing. > > Chris- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Starting with "Dayum", I have no idea what you're trying to say. "Plush/cool cornered", "these guys have you pegged"? What is your point?     Date: 23 Jun 2007 21:39:27 From: Hank Wirtz Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 8:02 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote: > Chris Nelson writes: > >>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> - Show quoted text - > >> - Show quoted text - > > I'm not clear to what this phrase is referring. In response to my > post recently it also appeared although all text was present. Please > explain. > > Jobst Brandt The Google Groups web-based newsreader automatically hides quoted text so you don't have to scroll so much through a thread to spot the new content. When replying, it can appear like that. Not saying it's a good, thing, just saying that it is.     Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:53:25 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 7:31 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > On Jun 23, 10:52 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > On Jun 23, 12:34 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > > > > this year. > > > > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > > > > redness. > > > > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > > > > must obey. > > > > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > > > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > > > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > > > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > > > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > > > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > > > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > > > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > > > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > > > > bikes came about because of him. > > > > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > > > > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > > > > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > > > > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > > > > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > > exactly make a trend. > > > Enjoy your RivenSchtick and your myopia.- > > Oooh myopia. It's not quite "retard", but, it's a start! A healthy start to being a loyal Riv-clone. Enjoy! PS - don't forget the twine. ;-)     Date: 23 Jun 2007 17:31:55 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 10:52 am, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 23, 12:34 pm, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 7:46 am, Ozark Bicycle > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote: > > > On Jun 23, 12:06 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > > > On Jun 22, 9:53 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > In article <1182536501.687104.224...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 22, 12:59 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > > > > > In article <1182531854.392788.117...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > > > landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jun 22, 11:07 am, "David L. Johnson" > > > > > > > > <david.john...@lehigh.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Sorry to butt in, but what twine? I have trouble > > > > > > > > > >> understanding how twine can be involved.... > > > > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > > > > > >>From the Official Cycling Hobbit source comes this: > > > > > > > > > > >http://tinyurl.com/2sgxxs > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh. I'm almost sorry I asked. God forbid that we should > > > > > > > > > actually use electrical tape -- or any product developed in the > > > > > > > > > 20th century, I suppose. I guess that goes with leather seats > > > > > > > > > and leather (or cloth?) bar tape, but shouldn't you be using > > > > > > > > > leather brake pads and wooden rims? > > > > > > > > > Yes, and use them humorlessly. > > > > > > > > IME most Rivendell customers have far better senses of humor about > > > > > > > this stuff than do their critics. You, for example. > > > > > > > Aw, does a little ad hominem make you feel better, hon? > > > > > > You've been dishing it, sweetie, I thought it was only neighborly to > > > > > make sure you got a portion too. Don't want you to feel left out. > > > > > > And I had a serious point. I know a lot of folks who own and ride > > > > > Rivendell (and "Rivendell-type") bikes. They've all got good senses of > > > > > humor and they all ride a lot- way more fun than the carbon fiber crowd, > > > > > who IME tend to be grim and more attentive to their HRMs than to the > > > > > world around them. When you get a flat, the CF types around here keep > > > > > going so as to not compromise their workout; the Riv types stop and lend > > > > > a hand. You can probably guess who I'd rather ride with. > > > > > > A good 1/3 of the riders who turned up for the 200K and 300K brevets I > > > > > went to this spring were on Rivendell frames- Rambouillets and Romuluses > > > > > in particular. Some of them even had Shimano or Campy brifters and 10 > > > > > speed cassettes. It's a crowd with a lot of variety. I'll put up with > > > > > a little twine- even though I didn't get in when I was a Scout and I > > > > > still don't get it- to have good company on a ride. > > > > > > > I have a grand sense of humor--but unlike a lot of people that buy > > > > > > bikes to hang on the wall, I ride a lot, and gain strong opinions > > > > > > about certain bits of gear. > > > > > > Glad to hear you have a sense of humor. You must have parked it with > > > > > your bike when writing to this thread. The dudgeon that people get into > > > > > over Brooks saddles and steel frames and lugs is just hi-larious. I > > > > > like it that my bikes won't be any more obsolete next year than they are > > > > > this year. > > > > > > > It's unbelievable, for example, when a bike shop fails to stock what > > > > > > I see as classic parts, things such as Rolls saddles and Kool Stop > > > > > > brake shoes--classic moderately priced problem solvers, and instead > > > > > > push overpriced junk like Aztec pads or overcomplicated and expensive > > > > > > saddles, whose numerous seams and logos only cause more chafing and > > > > > > redness. > > > > > > On this we agree. I happily don't have to shop at those shops. I have > > > > > a good local bike shop and there is always the Internet, which has > > > > > really simpled up getting the stuff I like to use. > > > > > > > Rivendell does the same thing with their bits. There's a ton of great > > > > > > stuff and advice at their site. Then there's also this phony folksy- > > > > > > craftiness that's just as eye-roll inducing as the unnecessary > > > > > > technology they eschew. Sell Brooks saddles--fine by me, they fit > > > > > > some folks--but I find it quite silly that they're the only option in > > > > > > their catalog. Grant has decided that's what you shall ride and you > > > > > > must obey. > > > > > > That's not it and I would hope you're smart enough to figure that out. > > > > > You can buy other saddles from many other places for cheaper than he can > > > > > afford to sell them. Grant generally eschews stocking stuff you can get > > > > > from Nashbar or at your LBS without difficulty. He can't compete with > > > > > the former on price and with the latter on convenience. Basically he > > > > > ain't got the cash to carry all that stuff in stock, so he sells the > > > > > products he likes and uses. I've never met Grant, but by those who have > > > > > I am told that the "folksy-craftiness" is just his personality.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > I've met and ridden [name drop alert] with Grant and it's true. He > > > > talks just like he writes. If there's a flaw that rubs people, it's > > > > his tendency to state opinions as facts. I think [and I could be > > > > wrong] that he assumes you know he is stating things as he sees them, > > > > not as "they are." IMO [Ha!] a lot of us do that on message boards, so > > > > I don't see why he should be singled out for it. I don't think he > > > > believes everyone should see things his way. I *do* think nobody of > > > > any promenence was stating his POV when he first started, and there's > > > > no doubt [my opinion] that high-bar fender-clearance charity-ride > > > > bikes came about because of him. > > > > Balderdash! Such bikes existed long before Petersen wrote his first > > > paragraph of folksy spoon fed hype for Bridgestone (I have one, built > > > in ~1975), and have continued to exist all along. Examples would be > > > the "touring" and "sport/touring" bikes long made and sold by > > > Cannondale, Novara, Trek and others.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > And balderdash to you my friend. I'm referring to "plush" bikes, cool > > road bikes that regular Joes actually want to buy. Touring bikes are > > purchased by tourers and those long wheelbase, thick-tubed, canti- > > braked bikes aren't road bikes, anyway. "Touring bike" is its own > > category. Folks who wanted a regular sidepull-brake road bike bought > > low-bar race bikes, no matter what kind of riding they actually did. I > > don't remember any "sport/touring" bikes from Trek or Cannondale ten > > years ago. Maybe Novara had one. One bike in the corner of REI doesn't > > exactly make a trend. > > Enjoy your RivenSchtick and your myopia.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Oooh myopia. It's not quite "retard", but, it's a start! I will. Thank you.     Date: 23 Jun 2007 14:38:07 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 7:33 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down. In my experience, leather stretches or tears, is inconsistent depending on the humidity, rivets pop out and rust, is rain averse and smells like a sickly horse; nylon, like the Buddha, just is. ;-).     Date: 23 Jun 2007 06:07:00 From: Ozark Bicycle Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 23, 7:33 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com > wrote: > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > Callistus Valerius wrote: > > > > I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to > > > get use to it. > > > That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If > > this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a > > box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a > > couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they? > > Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down. I wouldn't give an > uncomfortable saddle that long an interview, but the leather ones do > change for the better over time. Well, the point was the "couple of thousand miles" idea. IME, if a saddle ain't comfortable long before "a couple thousand miles", it ain't ever gonna be comfortable. > > You wouldn't toss a pair of $300 mountaineering boots because they > were hard and uncomfortable at first, would you? > I'm not sure that's an apt analogy; boots stretch, those that start a bit tight end up a proper fit. If they start out "comfy", they might well become too loose. Not the same situation as with a saddle, IMO.       Date: 24 Jun 2007 05:44:40 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182604020.624095.120780@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com > , Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote: > On Jun 23, 7:33 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Ozark Bicycle wrote: > > > > > Callistus Valerius wrote: > > > > > > I have a B-17 with a couple thousand miles on it, and I'm still trying to > > > > get use to it. > > > > > That's an interesting, unique-to-the-Brooks-fad thing, ain't it? If > > > this were any other saddle, it would have been sold off, tossed in a > > > box or in a landfill, because people don't give those other saddles "a > > > couple thousand miles" to "get use to", do they? > > > > Leather breaks in; plastic breaks down. I wouldn't give an > > uncomfortable saddle that long an interview, but the leather ones do > > change for the better over time. > > Well, the point was the "couple of thousand miles" idea. IME, if a > saddle ain't comfortable long before "a couple thousand miles", it > ain't ever gonna be comfortable. OK, you do not use a stretched leather saddle. I always have. Bought a new bicycle, put on a new saddle on it. It felt different from the 20 year old saddle on the other bicycle. Different, not worse. I was comfortable from this instant I got onto it. > > You wouldn't toss a pair of $300 mountaineering boots because they > > were hard and uncomfortable at first, would you? > > > > I'm not sure that's an apt analogy; boots stretch, those that start a > bit tight end up a proper fit. If they start out "comfy", they might > well become too loose. Not the same situation as with a saddle, IMO. -- Michael Press   Date: 21 Jun 2007 11:26:08 From: Joe Bernard Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 9:05 am, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. No, I won't be going too deep into Rivland. Black cork tape will do fine thanks. I will be using a retarded Brooks saddle, though.   Date: 21 Jun 2007 16:05:37 From: landotter Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged in our small sister factory in Japan! Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells.     Date: 23 Jun 2007 09:45:49 From: A Muzi Subject: Re: Good wheels > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and >> just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are >> accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally >> disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! >> Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into >> a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty >> good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other >> $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional >> handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke >> wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. landotter wrote: > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > in our small sister factory in Japan! > > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. I've been unavoidably away from RBT and just got back - Thanks for a hearty laugh, Landotter! -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971     Date: 21 Jun 2007 19:47:57 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <1182441937.298352.37150@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com >, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 2:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, > > and just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently > > y'all are accustomed to being called retards over here. My > > developementally disabled clients might have a bone to pick with > > that diagnosis! Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is > > rapidly evolving into a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. > > I think I've got a pretty good idea what the opinions of "Kry > > Syriums" are, but what about other $500.00-and-under pre-builts? > > Although I'm leaning toward traditional handbuilts, which would be > > expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke wheels might be an > > interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > > By interesting, you really mean "retarded", no? Riding your new bike > exclusively while wearing lederhosen would be interesting as well! > Don't forget the alpen horn clamps--only $500--but beautifully forged > in our small sister factory in Japan! It's hard to tell if you are trying to make a point here and, if so, what it might be. > Are you going to go the Tressostar direction with bar tape like a lot > of Riv folks do? Here's a hint: shellacking the tape only makes it > hard and uncomfortable. BUT, if you sprinkle it with sand while wet > and shellac again--you can suffer both vibratory and tactile > discomfort--something that will offer tremendous exclusivity compared > to those pusillanimous bikes that your LBS sells. There's something wrong with Tressostar? It and similar products have been in use for a long time and work fine. Maybe you preferred the Grab-On foam handlebar covers that were so popular in the late 1970s. I installed a lot of that crap on Ross bikes at the shop. Or maybe you- like me- prefer spending $20 for faux cork tape that shreds on contact... oops, my bike fell over- another $20 for new tape. I used Tressostar for many years and had no complaints. It's not very padded, of course, hence my preference for cork, but OTOH cloth bar tape is much more secure when your hands are sweaty on a 95 degree day or in the rain. Shellac is best used when you don't use aero brake levers; I use areo levers because I've got hands like hams and non-aero levers are far too small for comfort- and therefore I don't shellac bar tape. If you do shellac bar tape, the twine thing is unnecessary. I don't get the twine thing.       Date: 22 Jun 2007 22:27:52 From: Michael Press Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <timmcn-4F149A.19475721062007@news.iphouse.com >, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote: > I used Tressostar for many years and had no complaints. It's not very > padded, of course, hence my preference for cork, but OTOH cloth bar tape > is much more secure when your hands are sweaty on a 95 degree day or in > the rain. Shellac is best used when you don't use aero brake levers; I > use areo levers because I've got hands like hams and non-aero levers are > far too small for comfort- and therefore I don't shellac bar tape. If > you do shellac bar tape, the twine thing is unnecessary. I don't get > the twine thing. Okay. Why shellac bar tape? Why not with aero brake levers? I went back to cloth tape because the spongy bar tape reduced circulation in my hands, and they would go numb. Also because the spongy stuff is slippery when wet as you say. Some prefer the shock absorbing tape. I get by with the good shock absorbing at the ends of the drops and on the hoods. -- Michael Press         Date: 23 Jun 2007 18:09:24 From: Tim McNamara Subject: Re: Good wheels In article <rubrum-B54ECA.22275222062007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net >, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote: > In article <timmcn-4F149A.19475721062007@news.iphouse.com>, > Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote: > > > I used Tressostar for many years and had no complaints. It's not > > very padded, of course, hence my preference for cork, but OTOH > > cloth bar tape is much more secure when your hands are sweaty on a > > 95 degree day or in the rain. Shellac is best used when you don't > > use aero brake levers; I use areo levers because I've got hands > > like hams and non-aero levers are far too small for comfort- and > > therefore I don't shellac bar tape. If you do shellac bar tape, > > the twine thing is unnecessary. I don't get the twine thing. > > Okay. Why shellac bar tape? Why not with aero brake levers? > > I went back to cloth tape because the spongy bar tape reduced > circulation in my hands, and they would go numb. Also because the > spongy stuff is slippery when wet as you say. Some prefer the shock > absorbing tape. I get by with the good shock absorbing at the ends of > the drops and on the hoods. Shellac on the bar tape increases the PITA factor when changing brake cables with aero levers. Fortunately that's not something that has to be done real often but it's there.   Date: 21 Jun 2007 05:28:09 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 6:19 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com > wrote: > On Jun 21, 1:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > > What are your thoughts - about wheels I mean. Why I would want a > > stupid lugged steel frame is a question I've already answered for > > myself. > > If you know how to work on wheels, I would try Vuelta XRPs available > on ebay for $100 a wheels set. I would get them, check and tighten > spokes, overhaul hubs if too rough and and presto. I don't have a pair > yet but I may give them a try. They are heavy enough that should make > them pretty strong and have a high profile rim. For $100 who cares if > the last. If you don't care about a $100 bill, please put one in a envelope and send to me...thanks... > > An old mavic reflex rim died on me so i ordered some alex a22 wheels > on ebay. They came with 36 spokes and cheap hubs. They seem to be just > fine. I paid $99 for the pair with tires and tubes. Ive been riding > them out of the box with no problems. they were almost the same as > getting a new rim and rebuilding them. > > Andres   Date: 21 Jun 2007 05:19:18 From: andresmuro@aol.com Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 1:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > What are your thoughts - about wheels I mean. Why I would want a > stupid lugged steel frame is a question I've already answered for > myself. If you know how to work on wheels, I would try Vuelta XRPs available on ebay for $100 a wheels set. I would get them, check and tighten spokes, overhaul hubs if too rough and and presto. I don't have a pair yet but I may give them a try. They are heavy enough that should make them pretty strong and have a high profile rim. For $100 who cares if the last. An old mavic reflex rim died on me so i ordered some alex a22 wheels on ebay. They came with 36 spokes and cheap hubs. They seem to be just fine. I paid $99 for the pair with tires and tubes. Ive been riding them out of the box with no problems. they were almost the same as getting a new rim and rebuilding them. Andres   Date: 21 Jun 2007 05:07:38 From: Qui si parla Campagnolo Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 1:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > What are your thoughts - about wheels I mean. Why I would want a > stupid lugged steel frame is a question I've already answered for > myself. Less expensive wheelsouttaboxes often suffer from poor hubs along with poor builds, too much eyewash in terms of spokes and decals...most are short on reliability and long on marketing. $500 will get you a nice wheelset based around Ultegra or Centaur hubs...   Date: 21 Jun 2007 00:39:07 From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com Subject: Re: Good wheels On Jun 21, 9:15 am, Joe Bernard <josephrbern...@sbcglobal.net > wrote: > Hi and - wow. I'm new to this group, I'm more of a Riv/i-bob type, and > just read through two threads about Mavic wheels. Apparently y'all are > accustomed to being called retards over here. My developementally > disabled clients might have a bone to pick with that diagnosis! > Anyway, my planned Rivendell 650B day tourer is rapidly evolving into > a 700c go-fast bike [bike fast, rider slow]. I think I've got a pretty > good idea what the opinions of "Kry Syriums" are, but what about other > $500.00-and-under pre-builts? Although I'm leaning toward traditional > handbuilts, which would be expected on a Riv, I think racy low-spoke > wheels might be an interesting choice for a bike like this. > > What are your thoughts - about wheels I mean. Why I would want a > stupid lugged steel frame is a question I've already answered for > myself. It might be interesting in a Pimp My Ride sort of way. Kind of like 20" Spreewells on a '65 Impala. Interesting juxtaposition. You could always handbuild some racy low-count aerospoke wheels if you wanted. The only non-expensive pre-builts I've seen that I liked were Fulcrum Racing 5's. But I'd still prefer a traditional wheel. IMO pre-builts don't make any sense unless you are talking about a Campagnolo Bora, or an Obermyer or something crazy like that. Even the cheap ones are not nearly as much wheel for the money, and are generally less maintainable than traditional wheels. Just my $.02 Joseph