Headlight Recommendations

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Date: 02 Aug 2007 17:26:24
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Headlight Recommendations

The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 17 Aug 2007 13:20:15
From: thejen12
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

There seem to be a number of new LED lights coming out on the market
using CREE P4 LEDs and giving twice the lumen output of Luxeon III
LEDs. Check out the new offerings from NiteRider (including the
MiNEWT.x2) and Light and Motion (the Stella), and it looks like
Cygolite is ready to release a new DualCross Pro Lion, as well.

Jenn

Date: 18 Aug 2007 13:12:14
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

thejen12 wrote:
> There seem to be a number of new LED lights coming out on the market
> using CREE P4 LEDs and giving twice the lumen output of Luxeon III
> LEDs. Check out the new offerings from NiteRider (including the
> MiNEWT.x2) and Light and Motion (the Stella), and it looks like
> Cygolite is ready to release a new DualCross Pro Lion, as well.
>
> Jenn
-----------
that's already old stuff, the Lux rebel
is now the rage. 200 lumens out of a
flashlight.

Date: 14 Aug 2007 11:17:26
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 11 Aug 2007 08:30:45
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 10 Aug 2007 04:37:56
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 2, 8:26 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.

blue is good. cateyes are blue. uneeda blinkie on the front bar with
the headlamp so the oncoming SUV can tell ura bicycle not a porch
light. i use yellow/amber front but no reason to get hung up on color-
red gets respect. the nbar blinkies used here swivel so the danger
zone can be swung to before crossing an intersection or to the danger
side.
this year try a baseball cap to cut off oncoming headlamps. try yellow
clip on shooters shades from yorketowne optical in emigsville MD. the
yellow works at night looking down but cuts off the oncoming glare
real good.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:46:39
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On 9 Aug., 16:21, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:

> I wish that it were possible for inexpensive, dynamo powered lights to
> provide adequate illumination for commuting, but it isn't. I recognize
> that few people can afford nearly $400 for a 5W dynamo lighting system.
> For commuting, where there is no problem charging batteries every
> night, a high power quartz-halogen set-up is more economical.

You have no idea what you are talking about. It is simply untrue that
dynamo powered lightning systems cannot provide adequate illumination
for commuting.
I live in a city (pop. 1.5 million) where 36 percent of the
inhabitants commute with bicycle. I ride road stretches to work where
more than 50.000 cyclist pass every 24 hour, and unlit packed gravel
roads where few people rides. On my winter commutes I have never ever
seen a HID light system, I have perhaps seen one or two lightning
systems with external battery, like the Sigma Sport 5w halogen, I see
dynamo systems on every night commute. It cannot be lack of money that
stop all these commuters from buying expensive HID or halogen
lightning systems, since even affluent professionals like doctors,
lawyers, advertising agents etc. also commute on bikes. I even used to
see the (now former) finance minister commuting to work in full suit
and tie on his Raleigh Tourist Deluxe 3 speed bike, hardly one of the
starving masses.

Your price quote on 400USD is way above even a rather luxorious dynamo
lightning system from peterwhitecycles.com. 226USD for a handbuildt
wheel with a low drag Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub (Ultegra level
bearings), DB spokes and Mavic Open Sport rim (171,50USD) and a 3W B&M
Lumotec Oval Plus Senso halogen lamp with standlight and autosensing
switch. (54USD). This lightning system includes a frontwheel of
probably much higher quality than most commuting and utility bikes
have
But you can get much cheaper dynamo hub systems than that, while still
using quality components from Shimano and B&M.

An interessting fact about dynamo systems is, that they have the
potential to be the safest lightning system one can get, since they
can be on all the time if needed, and always having light on your bike
reduces the chance of accidents by at least 30 percent. Danish
researches from Aalborg University performend a experiment, where they
issued 2000 cyclist with allways-on LED induction dynamo systems and
then measured (among other things) their accident rate, and compared
them to a control group of other 2000 cyclist. The results was clear;
allways-on light gave an overall reduction of accidents of at least 30
percent. The experiment was later replicated with the same results.

So a hub dynamo and LED lamps that are allways on, seems be the
easyest way to get the safest lightning system for bike riding. And
let us not forget the environmental issues; 100.000 commuters using
big batteries (often lead based urgh!) that only last 500-1000 charges
in ideal conditions, compared to 100.000 commuters using only small
halogen bulbs or perhaps nothing at all if they got LED based lamps.
Sure, even using a HID lamp with a bottle cage battery, if that is
what you need, is much less of an environmental impact than car
driving, but using no batteries at all is even better.

--
Regards
Peter S.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 19:36:35
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

phs123@gmail.com wrote:

> I live in a city (pop. 1.5 million) where 36 percent of the
> inhabitants commute with bicycle.

You hit on the key difference between the U.S. and whatever country
you're in where so many people commute by bicycle.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 23:31:28
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46bbcef6$0$27251$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> phs123@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I live in a city (pop. 1.5 million) where 36 percent of the
> > inhabitants commute with bicycle.
>
> You hit on the key difference between the U.S. and whatever country
> you're in where so many people commute by bicycle.

Because their dark is different over there? WTF is up with your logic
(or lack thereof)?

Date: 10 Aug 2007 00:54:03
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <46bbcef6$0$27251$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> phs123@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I live in a city (pop. 1.5 million) where 36 percent of the
>>> inhabitants commute with bicycle.
>> You hit on the key difference between the U.S. and whatever country
>> you're in where so many people commute by bicycle.
>
> Because their dark is different over there? WTF is up with your logic
> (or lack thereof)?

I think that you're smart enough to figure out why location and the
percentage of inhabitants that cycle commute makes a difference.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 08:47:01
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46bc195d$0$27253$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <46bbcef6$0$27251$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> phs123@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> I live in a city (pop. 1.5 million) where 36 percent of the
> >>> inhabitants commute with bicycle.
> >> You hit on the key difference between the U.S. and whatever
> >> country you're in where so many people commute by bicycle.
> >
> > Because their dark is different over there? WTF is up with your
> > logic (or lack thereof)?
>
> I think that you're smart enough to figure out why location and the
> percentage of inhabitants that cycle commute makes a difference.

I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't change
between localities.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 08:26:23
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:

> I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't change
> between localities.

Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were not
common knowledge.

I've added a section to the web site that explains the differences. It's
entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added a bookmark for it near
the top of the site, or you can go directly there with
"http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 10 Aug 2007 11:54:31
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46bc8360$0$27217$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't change
> > between localities.
>
> Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were not
> common knowledge.
>
> I've added a section to the web site that explains the differences.
> It's entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added a bookmark for
> it near the top of the site, or you can go directly there with
> "http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".

Good grief, what a load of piffle.

> Steve "http://bicyclelighting.com" Earth's Independent Source for
> Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

"Misinformed Lighting Information" would be far more accurate.

Date: 10 Aug 2007 10:07:23
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <46bc8360$0$27217$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>
>>> I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't change
>>> between localities.
>> Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were not
>> common knowledge.
>>
>> I've added a section to the web site that explains the differences.
>> It's entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added a bookmark for
>> it near the top of the site, or you can go directly there with
>> "http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".
>
> Good grief, what a load of piffle.

Hmm, a British English word. I think you do understand the difference
between localities.

>
>> Steve "http://bicyclelighting.com" Earth's Independent Source for
>> Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information
>
> "Misinformed Lighting Information" would be far more accurate.

Of course you didn't point out anything that wasn't accurate in that list.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 10 Aug 2007 18:10:18
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46bc9b0b$0$27187$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <46bc8360$0$27217$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>,
> > SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't
> >>> change between localities.
> >> Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were
> >> not common knowledge.
> >>
> >> I've added a section to the web site that explains the
> >> differences. It's entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added
> >> a bookmark for it near the top of the site, or you can go directly
> >> there with "http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".
> >
> > Good grief, what a load of piffle.
>
> Hmm, a British English word. I think you do understand the difference
> between localities.

It doesn't matter. Bicycling all night long in rural France is no
different than bicycling all night long in rural Minnesota and Iowa,
having had the opportunity to do both. Bicycling at night in Paris is
marginally different than bicycling at night in Minneapolis- there were
(at the time) no bikes lanes in Paris, plus the "I don't really know
where the hell I'm going" aspect in Paris, too. And there's no Champs
Elysee or Eiffel tower in Minneapolis. Traffic was much more intense in
Paris. My Schmidt SON and Lumotec Plus proved perfectly adequate in all
those situations.

Your desperation to split hairs in defense of your flawed theses is
piffle. Or "twaddle" if you prefer. "Merde," even. "A crock" would
also suffice.

> >> Steve "http://bicyclelighting.com" Earth's Independent Source for
> >> Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information
> >
> > "Misinformed Lighting Information" would be far more accurate.
>
> Of course you didn't point out anything that wasn't accurate in that
> list.

Why bother? You never take anyone's advice if it disagrees with your
preconceptions.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 11:42:06
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 9, 11:40 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > No, they're using candlepower because their charts represent brightness
> > across the beam pattern, not simply the lumen output of the LED used.
>
> You need to reread the explanation. "Candlepower, as it is used to
> describe lighting systems, describes the brightest point in the beam
> pattern of a light. It is a point measurement of light and does not take
> into account the light elsewhere in the beam pattern."
>
> The photo at that link shows it all. The same candlepower can have
> vastly different lumens.
> "http://www.stkildacycles.com.au/images/lights/lights_candle.jpg"

Yes, or the same number of lumens can give vastly different
candlepower.

This is related to what some of us have been telling you for years.
Any lumens that shine up into the night sky are absolutely useless for
road riding. If they were instead focused on the road, the number of
candlepower directed toward the road would be greater. The rider
could see the road better.

The best optics for road riding direct relatively little light
upward. They put it where it's needed. This means they must have an
asymmetrical beam pattern, featuring (among other things) a visible
"cutoff" like seen in all modern car and motorcycle headlights. IOW,
the candlepower of the upward part of the beam is far lower than the
candlepower of the part that hits the road - just as it should be.

MR-series lamps have a foggy, symmetrical beam pattern. It's perfect
for lighting up a painting on a living room wall, or an overhead
projector screen. It's not bad for off-road, provided there are tree
branches that you need to duck. But it's a crude waste of energy for
road riding.

>
> It suits the purpose of some manufacturers to quote candlepower, but for
> bicycle lighting (and many other types of lighting), the point
> measurement is less important than the rest of the beam pattern, and
> hence lumens should be used when comparing different lights.

Sorry, but it's more complicated than that. More lumens does NOT mean
a better light. I've ridden with friends whose rechargeable sets put
out far more lumens than my optically correct headlight, but they
couldn't see nearly as well as with my generator lamp. This is why
certain websites show photos of beam shape.

> I think I'm going to have to add more explanations of this to the web
> site, as it appears to be an area of confusion.

Please study more before you put more "explanation" on your website.
Consider starting with a physics book. Make sure _you_ get it right.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:02:21
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 9, 10:21 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:

> I wish that it were possible for inexpensive, dynamo powered lights to
> provide adequate illumination for commuting, but it isn't.

Some of us have commuted for decades with inexpensive dynamo powered
lights. We say you're wrong. Repeating your statement won't make it
true.

> I recognize
> that few people can afford nearly $400 for a 5W dynamo lighting system.

It's not necessary to get a 5W dynamo, and it's not necessary to spend
$400.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/dynamos.html

or http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1580

or http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/dymotec.asp and go for the less
expensive models. They're fine.

or http://www.thethirdhand.com/index.cgi?d=single&c=Accessories&sc=Generator&tc=&item_id=UF-23009&id=754161622573

(that's http://tinyurl.com/2xpufu)

> For commuting, where there is no problem charging batteries every
> night, a high power quartz-halogen set-up is more economical.

I bought a new generator about two months ago. Granted, I was in
Europe, where they are much easier to find. (I bought it in a
combination bike store / auto parts store, where they had literally
baskets full of generators in many different models and price
ranges.) This one cost me about $12. I can add a $20 Lumotec
headlight, a few feet of wire, and be ready to go. There is no way
even your homebuilt systems are more economical - and that's even more
true if you put any value at all on your time spent digging up
components, making brackets, soldering, insulating, etc.

In America, the problem isn't affording a generator set, it's simply
finding one. The reason is that America has no bike commuting
culture, as Europe has always had. U.S. cycling went through a long
"dark ages" when all adults gave up riding. When adults
"rediscovered" bicycling in the 1970s, it was only for sport and
recreational riding. Practical things like generators had no place in
the scene. Meanwhile, in Europe, almost everyone that uses a bike for
utility has a generator set on it.

Note that Breezer bicycles is trying valiantly to promote practical
bikes and practical bicycling. Joe Breeze certainly qualifies as an
"expert" in this field. What type of lights does he build into his
bicycles?

See http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=town&frame=d&bike=villager
(that's http://tinyurl.com/8ajfk)

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 09 Aug 2007 14:30:00
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 9, 7:26 am, Doc O'Leary <droleary.use...@3q2007.subsume.com >
wrote:
>
>
> > One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good optics
> > and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output.
>
> That makes no sense at all; did you really read and understand the sites
> you link to? Optics don't do jack for lumen ratings.

I've tried to expain this to "Expert" Scharf before. Actually, I
started with clues, telling him he didn't understand important units
of measurement, and that his website had glaring technical errors as a
result. No change.

Eventually I got very specific. No response.

"Expert" Scharf doesn't seem to understand that the lumen rating of a
bulb, LED, etc. is the total amount of light it gives off in all
directions. That number is not affected by any reflector or lens.
This is why ordinary household bulbs can list the lumen output on the
package, even though they don't know where you're going to install
it. It's why sites like http://members.misty.com/don/led.html#w can
list lumen output and lumen/Watt values for LEDs without regard to
optics.

What can you say when a person bills himself as "The World's Greatest
Expert on Bicycle Lighting" yet doesn't understand the most
fundamental unit of light?

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 08 Aug 2007 12:04:31
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 8, 2:01 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > My experience is the opposite. Drivers are far more aware of me and are
> > far likelier to wait than they are during the day. Come to think of it,
> > I've never had any driver pull out in front of me and cut me off at
> > night. There are, of course, fewer opportunities as there are fewer
> > drivers out after dark.
>
> I definitely agree that at night the drivers are far likelier to wait,
> but it's because in the daytime they _know_ you're a bicycle, but at
> night, they just see a light coming and they have to judge the speed of
> the approaching light. When you have reasonably bright lights, even just
> 10-15W, they are unsure whether it's a bicycles or something else. With
> low-power lights of 1-3W, they realize that it's a bicycle and they
> believe that bicycles are always going as slow as they ride.

All very nice in theory. But as I've explained, I've seen them wait
for me much longer in at night than in daylight. In some cases,
they've waited amazingly long times. And they've _never_ cut me off
at night. That's with my 3 Watt generator headlights.

>
> I'm sure it varies by region of the world as well. In the U.S., you
> definitely don't want to be riding 25mph at night with only 3 watt
> lights, while in the more civilized countries of western Europe it's
> probably adequate.

Of course, I do live in the U.S.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 08 Aug 2007 12:02:31
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie wrote:
> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>

I don't know if you're into "rolling your own," but you can buy a
self-contained HID lamp for from TrailTech (13W power consumption), see
"http://trailtech.net/single_hid_mr11.html", a 14.8V Li-Po battery from
"http://prodigybatteries.com/productlist/" and a Li-Po charger, and
still be well under the cost for a commercial HID or dynamo lighting
system. Three hours would need something like the 5AH battery. Of course
the Li-Po battery is only needed if weight is a big issue, you can
always use a heavier SLA battery for about 1/8th the cost of a Li-Po
battery of similar capacity.

Remember that you can get close to HID efficiency by simply
over-voltaging a standard MR16 or MR11 lamp, the downside is reduced
lamp life, but lamps are pretty inexpensive if you don't go running to a
bike shop to buy them at $20 each.

A very good system would be a 14.8V (four cell) Li-Po battery, a set of
QH-7CC driving lights
("http://store.novatechgadgets.com/quhaofralioq.html"), and some 10W
MR16 lamps to replace the 50W lamps
("http://www.harringtonlights.com/Specialty_Glass/mr16_low_wattage.htm").

Also, remember to not confuse watts with lumens, as the relationship has
changed a lot over the years, and is dependent not only on power, but on
optics and lamp efficiency. The lumens per watt of a 20% over-voltaged
MR16 is actually greater than that of a commercial HID systems with the
smaller lamps. Optics make a difference, and the precision matched
reflector/bulb of the MR16 and MR11 lamps are the best option for
bicycle lights (which is why most high-end bicycle lights use them).
With a separate bulb and reflector, the bulb is not precisely
positioned, which wastes power (even turning the bulb can change the
efficiency).

It all depends on how much you want to spend, how much weight you want
to carry, how bright you need the lights to be, and how much work you
want to do yourself.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 08 Aug 2007 19:31:49
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba1309$0$27195$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Optics make a difference,

Yes they do.

> and the precision matched reflector/bulb of the MR16 and MR11 lamps
> are the best option for bicycle lights

No, they're not. They are a good choice for spotlighting in your
kitchen. They are a good choice for projectors. They are a suboptimal
choice for bicycle lighting. A lamp designed for bicycle use is the
best option.

> (which is why most high-end bicycle lights use them)

They use them because they are cheap and readily available in large
quantities.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 17:53:02
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:

> They use them because they are cheap and readily available in large
> quantities.

Actually they use them because of the combination of small size,
precisely controlled beam, and quality of light. MR lamps came into
existence because of the need for a compact low voltage light source
with precise optical control.

MR16 and MR11 lamps have become the lamp of choice in all high end
bicycle lighting systems.

What you want to avoid is wasting any of the available light due to
sub-optimal beam quality, which is often the case with lights where the
bulb and reflector are separate.

Headlights for dynamo systems are about as good as you can expect. They
use optics and a reflector to focus the limited available light into a
beam that is a necessary compromise.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 22:48:41
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba6530$0$27199$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > They use them because they are cheap and readily available in large
> > quantities.
>
> Actually they use them because of the combination of small size,
> precisely controlled beam, and quality of light. MR lamps came into
> existence because of the need for a compact low voltage light source
> with precise optical control.
>
> MR16 and MR11 lamps have become the lamp of choice in all high end
> bicycle lighting systems.

More bullshit. They are the lamp of choice because the manufacturer
only has do cosmetic design- the housing, the battery holder, etc. They
don't have to design optics which actually requires an understanding of
the principles involved.

> What you want to avoid is wasting any of the available light due to
> sub-optimal beam quality, which is often the case with lights where
> the bulb and reflector are separate.

And happens in abundance with the lamps you hold up as paragons. At
least half of the light output is wasted.

> Headlights for dynamo systems are about as good as you can expect.
> They use optics and a reflector to focus the limited available light
> into a beam that is a necessary compromise.

The beam provided by the Lumotec optics and the Schmidt E6 is vastly
superior for the application than the MR lamps, which are a kludge
adapted from other uses out of convenience.

You write like someone who's never ridden more than an hour or so at
night. People with far greater experience than that over many years
have attempted to correct your misconceptions, but you refuse to
understand. Not our problem, really, although I am sure that several of
us will continue to correct the misinformation you spread in this
newsgroup and through your Web site.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 02:01:36
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46ba6530$0$27199$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>> They use them because they are cheap and readily available in large
>> quantities.
>
> Actually they use them because of the combination of small size, precisely
> controlled beam, and quality of light. MR lamps came into existence
> because of the need for a compact low voltage light source with precise
> optical control.
>
> MR16 and MR11 lamps have become the lamp of choice in all high end bicycle
> lighting systems.

Of course let's not forget the target market for these high end bicycle
lighting systems - it isn't road riding/commuting, its MTBing. Which of
course has rather different demands than road riding - and no, I probably
wouldn't use a dynamo for gnarly off-road.

cheers,
clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 18:35:18
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:

> Of course let's not forget the target market for these high end bicycle
> lighting systems - it isn't road riding/commuting, its MTBing. Which of
> course has rather different demands than road riding - and no, I
> probably wouldn't use a dynamo for gnarly off-road.

That may be the target market in the UK, but not in the U.S.. Most
commuters use battery powered lights, usually of the high-end variety.
Dynamo systems are very rare. You can buy them at some drugstores and
hardware stores, but they're the very low end systems, or you can order
the high-end dynamo systems from a couple of places like Harris Cyclery
or Peter White, but they are almost never found in bicycle shops.

The exception to this is on the dedicated commute bicycles such as the
Breezer, which often comes with an integrated hub dynamo.

Very few commuters are willing to spend the big bucks to add a new wheel
with a hub dynamo to their bike, plus pay for the high-end dynamo
headlights. I may be an exception, as I'm ordering a hub dynamo wheel
for my Dahon ("http://gaerlan.com/dahon/wheel.htm"), but that's
typically not my commute bike because the Nexus hub makes it so
difficult to fix flats.

The chance of most commuters spending $300+ on a high-end dynamo system
is slim. By the time you buy a wheel with a dynamo hub, a headlight, a
headlight mount, and a stand light (since the high-end dynamo lights
don't have it built in), you're spending more than an HID system.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:01:39
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba6f18$0$27202$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Clive George wrote:
>
> > Of course let's not forget the target market for these high end
> > bicycle lighting systems - it isn't road riding/commuting, its
> > MTBing. Which of course has rather different demands than road
> > riding - and no, I probably wouldn't use a dynamo for gnarly
> > off-road.
>
> That may be the target market in the UK, but not in the U.S.. Most
> commuters use battery powered lights, usually of the high-end
> variety.

LOL! Not around here. Most commuters have a white blinky on the front
and a red blinky on the back- if they have lights at all. Few have
lights with high capacity external batteries.

> Dynamo systems are very rare. You can buy them at some drugstores and
> hardware stores, but they're the very low end systems, or you can
> order the high-end dynamo systems from a couple of places like Harris
> Cyclery or Peter White, but they are almost never found in bicycle
> shops.

Perhaps where you live. No problem finding them in bike shops around
here. Not a huge selection, but then the selection of battery powered
lights tends to be limited to a couple of Cateye and Planet bike lights
ranging from 1W LED to 2.4W halogens.

> The exception to this is on the dedicated commute bicycles such as
> the Breezer, which often comes with an integrated hub dynamo.
>
> Very few commuters are willing to spend the big bucks to add a new
> wheel with a hub dynamo to their bike, plus pay for the high-end
> dynamo headlights. I may be an exception, as I'm ordering a hub
> dynamo wheel for my Dahon ("http://gaerlan.com/dahon/wheel.htm"), but
> that's typically not my commute bike because the Nexus hub makes it
> so difficult to fix flats.
>
> The chance of most commuters spending $300+ on a high-end dynamo
> system is slim. By the time you buy a wheel with a dynamo hub, a
> headlight, a headlight mount, and a stand light (since the high-end
> dynamo lights don't have it built in), you're spending more than an
> HID system.

Less money actually, than many of the "high end" battery systems you
claim are so prevalent here. The Schmidt is expensive, but the Shimano
is not expensive and offers very similar performance. The local bike
shop I go to (www.hiawathacyclery.com) does a roaring trade in wheels
with hub generators.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 02:58:35
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46ba6f18$0$27202$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Clive George wrote:
>
>> Of course let's not forget the target market for these high end bicycle
>> lighting systems - it isn't road riding/commuting, its MTBing. Which of
>> course has rather different demands than road riding - and no, I probably
>> wouldn't use a dynamo for gnarly off-road.
>
> That may be the target market in the UK, but not in the U.S..

http://www.night-sun.com/

What's the picture on the front page? Yup, an off-roader.

> Most commuters use battery powered lights, usually of the high-end
> variety. Dynamo systems are very rare. You can buy them at some drugstores
> and hardware stores, but they're the very low end systems, or you can
> order the high-end dynamo systems from a couple of places like Harris
> Cyclery or Peter White, but they are almost never found in bicycle shops.

What's the utility/leisure split of riding in the US? I'm willing to bet
it's rather more towards the "leisure" end than the UK/Europe. Hence the
stuff available is targeted towards leisure riders.

> The chance of most commuters spending $300+ on a high-end dynamo system is
> slim. By the time you buy a wheel with a dynamo hub, a headlight, a
> headlight mount, and a stand light (since the high-end dynamo lights don't
> have it built in), you're spending more than an HID system.

Um, high-end dynamo lights definitely do have standlights (I can think of 3
without looking it up).

More importantly, it's not cost which is relevant (*), it's not having to
charge the thing, and having it always available. That's worth a huge amount
to me - such that if I could get a HID system for 20 quid, I still wouldn't
put it on my bike.

(* though it is possible to do hub-powered lights on the cheap - shimano
'mo, cheap lamp, build the wheel yourself.)

cheers,
clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 23:02:34
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <13bkt6ejp1bh20c@corp.supernews.com >,
"Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote:

> What's the utility/leisure split of riding in the US?

10%/90% or so, I'd guess.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 13:23:43
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <13bkt6ejp1bh20c@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Clive George" <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> What's the utility/leisure split of riding in the US?
>
> 10%/90% or so, I'd guess.

Is this in miles ridden, time ridden, or counting every person that
takes out their bike once a year to ride two miles as part of the 90%?

It's probably more like 99%/1% if you compare cycle commuters versus
anyone that rides their bike for leisure, but most of these leisure
cyclists ride only a few miles a year, while a commuter will rack up
thousands of miles a year.

It also varies a lot by region. Cycle commuting is very popular in my
area (Silicon Valley), not so popular in places like Miami, New York, or
L.A..

In all the years I've been cycle commuting, I've seen only one person
with a dynamo lighting system, and that was on a Breezer. Of course part
of the problem may be that no local stores sell these systems, but OTOH
if there was a demand then maybe they'd stock them.

Most of the people commuting around here are high-tech professionals,
including a lot of EEs. These people understand the trade-offs of the
various types of lights, and tend to be very concerned about maximizing
safety, so dynamos are not going to sell well here.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:15:27
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:

> What's the utility/leisure split of riding in the US? I'm willing to bet
> it's rather more towards the "leisure" end than the UK/Europe. Hence the
> stuff available is targeted towards leisure riders.

Depends on the area of the U.S.. Bicycle commuting is very popular in
areas with mild weather, such as the SF Bay Area. A lot of the mass
transit systems in the area accommodate bicycles, and it's very heavily
used--we fought hard for expanded bicycle access on the San
Francisco-San Jose train, which now accommodates up to 32 bicycles per
train (some hold only 16).
"http://www.caltrain.com/info_bicycle_access_storage.html"

Date: 07 Aug 2007 17:46:33
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 7, 11:25 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> > To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they will
> > assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me off. If
> > they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10 mph and cut
> > me off. Happens quite often. :(
>
> That is precisely what I've found while commuting. I was constantly
> getting cut off with low-power lights, with vehicles exiting parking
> lots and driveways, and turning left in front of me. They just don't
> expect a bicycle to be going even 20 mph. With bright lights, especially
> the sealed beams on my commute bike (due to the large diameter), they yield.

And again, I've literally never been cut off while riding at night.
Daytime has been different, and at least one daytime incident required
extreme evasion on my part to prevent a crash. But nighttime? Not
once - and I've done bike commuting at night since 1978, plus
occasional recreational rides and touring.

Here's a trick you might try if you spot an impatient-looking driver
approaching. ("Impatient" shows up in their speed, and in behaviors
like late braking for a stop sign.) Simply wiggle your handlebars a
bit side to side, quickly but slightly. The motion's the same as a
"rock dodge" but not nearly so radical.

As long as your headlamps are fastened to the handlebars or forks (not
the bike's frame) this will flash your headlight in the driver's eye,
to one degree or other.

Understand, I seldom need to bother with this trick. But perhaps when
I've used it, it's helped prevent the cut-offs you guys experience.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 07 Aug 2007 14:41:26
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 7, 6:36 pm, Crescentius Vespasianus <jazzyb...@hotmail.com >
wrote:
> > I have a EL530 bought for one bike I'm building, the regulated output is
> > nice but I don't know I like the beam shape (a round tight center spot
> > with wide spill). But as the EL-500 is discontinued I suppose half that
> > decision is already made. The EL500 was the best cheapie headlight
> > around a year ago.
>
> ------------------
> Is the el-530 brighter than the 500?
> Can you put the spot farther out with
> the 530 than you can the 500? As you
> know if you put the spot on the 500 too
> far out you don't see any illumination.

The EL-530's spot is brighter than the EL-500, but the spot is a tiny
round dot in comparison to the already small EL-500 pattern. However,
the two go well together, e.g. with the 530's spot pointed just beyond
the two "cat ears" in the 500's pattern. Given the choice though, I'd
rather have two EL-500 than one of each (as I do now) or two EL-530.
If I could have only one, I'd choose the EL-500.

DougC, where did you get an EL-530 with regulated output? Is it a
special, Euro version? Europe gets all the cool stuff :-(.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 05:47:16
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On 6 Aug., 19:00, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:

SMS skrev:

> North Carolina Bicycle Coalition
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/lights/lights.htm
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...a cyclist operating at 15 mph can see well enough with less than 600
> candlepower (e.g. 12 watt halogen), and a cyclist operating at 7.5 mph
> can see far enough in with less than 150 candlepower (e.g. 3 watt
> halogen). The light provided by a bicycle headlamp may be focused into a
> narrow beam for maximum range, or may be spread out for better
> peripheral vision. A three watt lamp can be focused into a beam suitable
> for high speed cycling on the darkest roads, but will not give much
> illumination of turns. North Carolina Bicycle Coalition

The numbers quoted doesn't make sense. They seem to claim that a 3
watt halogen lamp (like a dynamo driven headlight) only gives a meager
150 candelas. But the German magazine "Aktive Radfahren" 1-2/05 (the
guys who also does the respected "Tour" magazine) made an thorough
test of 7 dynamo headlights and 7 battery operated headlights. My
choice of dynamo frontlight, the "B&M Lumotec Oval Senso Plus" was
measured to 13,5 lux. The battery operated Cateye EL-500G was also
measured to 13,5 lux at 10 meters distance, but the Cateye alledgedly
gives out more than 1000 candelas? How come a 3 watt halogen
headlight, who your "expert" claims gives out 150 candela, is just as
strong as a 1000 candela headlight? Furthermore I know the Cateye 500G
model quite well, and on paper it may be measured as bright as my B&M
2,4 watt halogen headlight, but it is only bright in a small spot,
while my halogen light casts a generous flood light over a large area,
so in practise, the dynamodriven headlight is vastly superior.

In the test, no headlight operated with internal battery could beat
the best dynamo driven headlight.

> Sacramento Area Bicycle Advocates
> (http://www.sacbike.org/articles/article.php?mode=display&lognum=17)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "If you want to cycle at low speeds in areas with street lights, other
> ambient lighting, or when there's a full moon on a cloudless night, a
> low wattage light is OK. If you actually want to see obstacles in darker
> areas, you need a more powerful light, from 10 to 30 watts or more.

That "expert" has never tried a hubdynamo lightning system for sure,
and doesn't even seem to have tried to ride on a unlit road, because,
as you allready know, "low" wattage systems are really good in pitch
black conditions, as another of your "experts" also says.
I am not a fast commuter, and rarely does more than 35 km/h, but I
can go full speed down a unlit packed gravel road with lots of
potholes without any problems with my dynamolight.

I have absolutely no respect for your so called "experts", who doesn't
seem to have any accredited education relevant for being bicycle
lights expert, or quote any source at all to back up their claims. The
facts just flies in the face of their claims.

--
Regards
Peter S.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 22:08:55
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 8:11 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 6, 10:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> > frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > > ...
> > > Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
> > > vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
> > > cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
> > > look like a supernova.
>
> > I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
> > light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
> > type speeds.
>
> Sorry, but if you don't plan on using motorcycle-duty wheels, tires
> and brakes, it's not very sensible to say you need a motorcycle
> headlight.
>
> Bicycles are all about efficiency - about having exactly the
> appropriate level of capability for the job. That's why the rubber on
> our tires isn't half an inch thick, even though our thin tires get
> some flats. That's why our spokes are less than a millimeter thick,
> not 3 or 4 millimeters. That's why your bike's frame weighs less than
> 5 pounds, not 25 pounds or more. Why should a cyclist violate this
> principle regarding lights?
>
> You're not on a motorcycle. Unless you're _extremely_ unusual, you
> don't approach intersections at 50 mph, and need to warn motorists at
> stop signs 300 feet away. You don't do 70 on the freeway, or on
> winding country roads. You simply don't need a headlight that is
> appropriate for those conditions.

Hey, when its foggy, raining, dark -- and I'm sliding down some goat
trail on my way home through the hills, I want as much f****** light
as I can get. I'm old. My eyesight sucks. I don't care if it is too
much light in some metaphysical sense.

I also don't know about modern generator lights -- mabye they're
bright, but most people (including me) don't want to drop $400+ to
find out (based on Peter White's prices for rim, spokes, hub, light).
If I could test drive one of these things, I might consider it --
except, again, I use two bikes -- one with a disc, so I can't just
flip the wheels. -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 07:21:03
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie wrote:

> I also don't know about modern generator lights -- mabye they're
> bright, but most people (including me) don't want to drop $400+ to
> find out (based on Peter White's prices for rim, spokes, hub, light).
> If I could test drive one of these things, I might consider it --
> except, again, I use two bikes -- one with a disc, so I can't just
> flip the wheels. -- Jay Beattie.

I put a good headlight on every bicycle I own, permanently mounted. 12
volt quartz-halogen headlights are very inexpensive, so it's easier to
not have to mess with moving them around. I don't have a battery for
every bicycle, just a couple with different capacities.

Usually I use an LV504 or LV505 sealed beam. It's a good beam pattern
for cycling, very light, good reflector, and it's under $10. You can
basically use any 12 to 15 volt battery that's capable of providing
sufficient current (Li-Ion or Sealed Lead Acid). I tried AA NiMH cells,
but they can't provide sufficient current, though Ni-Cads probably could.

I wish that it were possible for inexpensive, dynamo powered lights to
provide adequate illumination for commuting, but it isn't. I recognize
that few people can afford nearly $400 for a 5W dynamo lighting system.
For commuting, where there is no problem charging batteries every
night, a high power quartz-halogen set-up is more economical.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 08:55:41
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie wrote:

> Hey, when its foggy, raining, dark -- and I'm sliding down some goat
> trail on my way home through the hills, I want as much f****** light
> as I can get. I'm old. My eyesight sucks. I don't care if it is too
> much light in some metaphysical sense.

Night vision declines with age, it's true. But it's not just about
illuminating the road, it's about how vehicles perceive you when they
see you approaching. On routes that riders are familiar with they
probably could get by with 3W lights in terms of road illumination, but
where a big safety issue occurs is how vehicles behave as you approach.
Are you constantly yielding to vehicles that perceive you as a slow
moving bicycle, or do they yield because they perceive you as something
else? There's a huge difference in motorist behavior when you use bright
lights.

> I also don't know about modern generator lights -- mabye they're
> bright, but most people (including me) don't want to drop $400+ to
> find out (based on Peter White's prices for rim, spokes, hub, light).
> If I could test drive one of these things, I might consider it --
> except, again, I use two bikes -- one with a disc, so I can't just
> flip the wheels. -- Jay Beattie.

Just buy multiple $400 systems! Actually, it's amazing how cheap those
internal hub generators are when they are included in the bicycle from
the bicycle manufacturer, though probably not much worse than other
parts and accessories. Attend the Taipei International Cycle Show some
time and get an idea of the very low prices that accessory manufacturers
charge distributors for accessories. Bicycle shops also have good
margins on accessories, unlike on complete bicycles.

Dahon charges $130 (street) for their dynamo wheel. I may get one for my
Dahon folder as I often use it as my "around town" bicycle.

You can buy low-end dynamo lighting systems from
"http://www.yellowjersey.org/lolite.html" and mid-range from
"http://www.yellowjersey.org/dynamos.html". Not as nice as what Peter
White sells, but much cheaper.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 07 Aug 2007 08:30:10
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <1186463335.911706.57520@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com >,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:

> Hey, when its foggy, raining, dark -- and I'm sliding down some goat
> trail on my way home through the hills, I want as much f****** light
> as I can get. I'm old. My eyesight sucks. I don't care if it is too
> much light in some metaphysical sense.

Assuming you mean that you're riding offroad, you'll find that generator
lights are not good in that setting. Battery powered lights work much
better off road because light output is not affected by riding speed.

One issue about eyesight is night vision. Many people have poor night
vision. An overly bright headlight can actually worsen night vision by
overlighting close objects. Few if any really bright headlights have
good optics for cycling. IMHO B&M Lumotec and Schmidt E6 have the best
optics for use as a cycling light- the beam is brighter at the top which
shines further down the road, resulting in a long, evenly illuminated
pool of light and avoiding overlighting things up close.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 19:26:28
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <1186463335.911706.57520@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey, when its foggy, raining, dark -- and I'm sliding down some goat
>> trail on my way home through the hills, I want as much f****** light
>> as I can get. I'm old. My eyesight sucks. I don't care if it is too
>> much light in some metaphysical sense.
>
> Assuming you mean that you're riding offroad, you'll find that generator
> lights are not good in that setting. Battery powered lights work much
> better off road because light output is not affected by riding speed.
>
> One issue about eyesight is night vision. Many people have poor night
> vision. An overly bright headlight can actually worsen night vision by
> overlighting close objects. Few if any really bright headlights have
> good optics for cycling. IMHO B&M Lumotec and Schmidt E6 have the best
> optics for use as a cycling light- the beam is brighter at the top which
> shines further down the road, resulting in a long, evenly illuminated
> pool of light and avoiding overlighting things up close.

I want a fuel cell that can power something like this for several nights
use without refueling: <http://www.piaa.com/Lamps/Lamp-pages/600hid.html >.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 08 Aug 2007 01:33:35
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46b90199$0$16334$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

> I want a fuel cell that can power something like this for several nights
> use without refueling: <http://www.piaa.com/Lamps/Lamp-pages/600hid.html>.

I want world peace :-)

(at least yours stands some chance of happening at some point - but it'll be
a while yet...)

cheers,
clive

Date: 07 Aug 2007 20:13:08
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in
> message news:46b90199$0$16334$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>> I want a fuel cell that can power something like this for several
>> nights use without refueling:
>> <http://www.piaa.com/Lamps/Lamp-pages/600hid.html>.
>
> I want world peace :-)
>
> (at least yours stands some chance of happening at some point - but
> it'll be a while yet...)

With more and more functions being crammed into cell phones (to the
point the phone is secondary), batteries are not going to cut it in the
future. Similarly, the computer laptop would greatly benefit from fuel
technology. These markets (unlike bicycle lights) are huge enough to pay
for a lot of fuel cell R&D.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 21:33:52
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
>
>
> Yes, a hub dynamo and a battery high power halogen would work, but the
> wiring gets cumbersome since the light needs to be mounted on the boom
> in front of one's feet, with the switch on the handlebars.

Wow. I'd have thought that a dedicated recumbent rider would be used
to the extra fiddling it takes to mount "ordinary bike" accessories on
his machine!

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 07 Aug 2007 01:52:00
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, a hub dynamo and a battery high power halogen would work, but the
>> wiring gets cumbersome since the light needs to be mounted on the boom
>> in front of one's feet, with the switch on the handlebars.
>
> Wow. I'd have thought that a dedicated recumbent rider would be used
> to the extra fiddling it takes to mount "ordinary bike" accessories on
> his machine!

Yehbut, I'm lazy. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 21:32:20
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 11:20 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 6, 10:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> > <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
> >> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> >>> ...
> >>> Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
> >>> vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
> >>> cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
> >>> look like a supernova.
> >> I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
> >> light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
> >> type speeds.
>
> > Sorry, but if you don't plan on using motorcycle-duty wheels, tires
> > and brakes, it's not very sensible to say you need a motorcycle
> > headlight.
>
> To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they will
> assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me off. If
> they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10 mph and cut
> me off. Happens quite often. :(

Those sorts of statements always amaze me. When I ride at night,
motorists always give me more consideration, not less. I've been
amazed many times by motorists that wait, and wait, and wait for me to
pass before turning left across my path, or pulling out from a stop
sign, when they obviously could have safely done so much earlier.

>
> > Bicycles are all about efficiency - about having exactly the
> > appropriate level of capability for the job. That's why the rubber on
> > our tires isn't half an inch thick, even though our thin tires get
> > some flats. That's why our spokes are less than a millimeter thick,
> > not 3 or 4 millimeters. That's why your bike's frame weighs less than
> > 5 pounds, not 25 pounds or more. Why should a cyclist violate this
> > principle regarding lights?
>
> > You're not on a motorcycle. Unless you're _extremely_ unusual, you
> > don't approach intersections at 50 mph, and need to warn motorists at
> > stop signs 300 feet away. You don't do 70 on the freeway, or on
> > winding country roads. You simply don't need a headlight that is
> > appropriate for those conditions.
>
> Every ride in a hilly area on a fast lowracer or fully-faired recumbent
> at night? Motorcycle type speeds are easily obtained going downhill, and
> a 3W dynamo light is not going to cut it.

Well, no, I haven't. The only really low machine I have is a trike
built on a low racer pattern. Frankly, it's not something I enjoy
riding.

If you really do attain speeds of, say, 25+ mph at night with any
regularity, you'll probably need more than a good generator light.
But even then, something at moped level should do it. You're still
not on a crotch rocket, or even a touring motorcycle.

>
> Now if you are talking about riding around the city at normal cycle
> speeds (15-40 kph), yes, a good hub dynamo and light with decent optics
> is adequate if you allow for stupid motorists cutting you off when
> pulling out of cross-streets and driveways.

Again, that's literally never been a problem. I've been cut off a few
times by motorists who didn't see me in daylight. Twice in one
memorable day, in fact - and astonishingly, both apologized
profusely.

Since it's never happened in darkness, and since instead I've gotten
spontaneous compliments on my nighttime conspicuity, I feel sure my
lighting/reflector system is doing its job.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 09 Aug 2007 22:15:57
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <1186461140.191388.238200@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >,
frkrygow@gmail.com says...
> Those sorts of statements always amaze me. When I ride at night,
> motorists always give me more consideration, not less.
>
I have similar experience, with one exception. For me, I ALMOST always
get more consideration from motorists. Unfortunately, it's the
exceptions that will kill you.

Rick

Date: 09 Aug 2007 15:31:03
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Espressopithecus (Java Man) wrote:
> In article <1186461140.191388.238200@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
> frkrygow@gmail.com says...
>> Those sorts of statements always amaze me. When I ride at night,
>> motorists always give me more consideration, not less.
>>
> I have similar experience, with one exception. For me, I ALMOST always
> get more consideration from motorists. Unfortunately, it's the
> exceptions that will kill you.

Remember, with an LED flasher that uses good LEDs, or a xenon strobe
you're very visible at night, and stand out more than in the day time.

The advantage of using a good headlight is two-fold. First, a good
headlight illuminates the road so you can see, including off to the
sides, and far ahead (so you don't out-cycle your lights). Second, a
good headlight is useful to avoid having motorists cut you off because
they believe you're a slow moving bicycle. I find drivers quite
considerate, but they need to be able to see you, and they need to
realize that you're not moving at 5-10 mph, but at 20-30 mph.

The most important thing is that cyclists that ride at night use
adequate lighting. While the 12V/6W dynamos do produce adequate
illumination, they are far too costly for most cyclists to consider. It
would be a shame if the dynamo proponents convinced cyclists that they
should not purchase low cost, high quality, battery powered lighting
systems simply because these systems rely on mains power for recharging.

I am normally very much the purist, and try to be self-contained. I tour
with panniers, carrying everything. I stay away from aluminum frame
bicycles, non-lugged frames, and threadless headsets. For touring, I
would normally not ride much at night, and would probably use a
handlebar mount Mag Light for the times I would have to be out at night.
If I were going on a long tour and expected to do extensive night riding
then I would splurge and buy the 12 volt, 6 watt dynamo, because it
would not be practical to charge batteries.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 01:56:17
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Aug 6, 11:20 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 10:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
>>> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>>>> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
>>>>> vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
>>>>> cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
>>>>> look like a supernova.
>>>> I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
>>>> light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
>>>> type speeds.
>>> Sorry, but if you don't plan on using motorcycle-duty wheels, tires
>>> and brakes, it's not very sensible to say you need a motorcycle
>>> headlight.
>> To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they will
>> assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me off. If
>> they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10 mph and cut
>> me off. Happens quite often. :(
>
> Those sorts of statements always amaze me. When I ride at night,
> motorists always give me more consideration, not less. I've been
> amazed many times by motorists that wait, and wait, and wait for me to
> pass before turning left across my path, or pulling out from a stop
> sign, when they obviously could have safely done so much earlier.
>
>
>>> Bicycles are all about efficiency - about having exactly the
>>> appropriate level of capability for the job. That's why the rubber on
>>> our tires isn't half an inch thick, even though our thin tires get
>>> some flats. That's why our spokes are less than a millimeter thick,
>>> not 3 or 4 millimeters. That's why your bike's frame weighs less than
>>> 5 pounds, not 25 pounds or more. Why should a cyclist violate this
>>> principle regarding lights?
>>> You're not on a motorcycle. Unless you're _extremely_ unusual, you
>>> don't approach intersections at 50 mph, and need to warn motorists at
>>> stop signs 300 feet away. You don't do 70 on the freeway, or on
>>> winding country roads. You simply don't need a headlight that is
>>> appropriate for those conditions.
>> Every ride in a hilly area on a fast lowracer or fully-faired recumbent
>> at night? Motorcycle type speeds are easily obtained going downhill, and
>> a 3W dynamo light is not going to cut it.
>
> Well, no, I haven't. The only really low machine I have is a trike
> built on a low racer pattern. Frankly, it's not something I enjoy
> riding.
>
> If you really do attain speeds of, say, 25+ mph at night with any
> regularity, you'll probably need more than a good generator light.
> But even then, something at moped level should do it. You're still
> not on a crotch rocket, or even a touring motorcycle.
>
>> Now if you are talking about riding around the city at normal cycle
>> speeds (15-40 kph), yes, a good hub dynamo and light with decent optics
>> is adequate if you allow for stupid motorists cutting you off when
>> pulling out of cross-streets and driveways.
>
> Again, that's literally never been a problem. I've been cut off a few
> times by motorists who didn't see me in daylight. Twice in one
> memorable day, in fact - and astonishingly, both apologized
> profusely.
>
> Since it's never happened in darkness, and since instead I've gotten
> spontaneous compliments on my nighttime conspicuity, I feel sure my
> lighting/reflector system is doing its job.

I have been cut off that way many times when riding a bicycle, both in
daylight and darkness.

Of course, I have had the same thing happen when driving a medium duty
commercial truck that would crush a Hummer, so there is no fool-proof
solution.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 20:11:45
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 10:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
<sunsetss0...@invailid.com > wrote:
> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > ...
> > Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
> > vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
> > cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
> > look like a supernova.
>
> I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
> light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
> type speeds.

Sorry, but if you don't plan on using motorcycle-duty wheels, tires
and brakes, it's not very sensible to say you need a motorcycle
headlight.

Bicycles are all about efficiency - about having exactly the
appropriate level of capability for the job. That's why the rubber on
our tires isn't half an inch thick, even though our thin tires get
some flats. That's why our spokes are less than a millimeter thick,
not 3 or 4 millimeters. That's why your bike's frame weighs less than
5 pounds, not 25 pounds or more. Why should a cyclist violate this
principle regarding lights?

You're not on a motorcycle. Unless you're _extremely_ unusual, you
don't approach intersections at 50 mph, and need to warn motorists at
stop signs 300 feet away. You don't do 70 on the freeway, or on
winding country roads. You simply don't need a headlight that is
appropriate for those conditions.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 Aug 2007 22:20:52
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Aug 6, 10:52 pm, "Tom \"Johnny Sunset\" Sherman"
> <sunsetss0...@invailid.com> wrote:
>> frkry...@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
>>> vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
>>> cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
>>> look like a supernova.
>> I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
>> light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
>> type speeds.
>
> Sorry, but if you don't plan on using motorcycle-duty wheels, tires
> and brakes, it's not very sensible to say you need a motorcycle
> headlight.

To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they will
assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me off. If
they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10 mph and cut
me off. Happens quite often. :(

> Bicycles are all about efficiency - about having exactly the
> appropriate level of capability for the job. That's why the rubber on
> our tires isn't half an inch thick, even though our thin tires get
> some flats. That's why our spokes are less than a millimeter thick,
> not 3 or 4 millimeters. That's why your bike's frame weighs less than
> 5 pounds, not 25 pounds or more. Why should a cyclist violate this
> principle regarding lights?
>
> You're not on a motorcycle. Unless you're _extremely_ unusual, you
> don't approach intersections at 50 mph, and need to warn motorists at
> stop signs 300 feet away. You don't do 70 on the freeway, or on
> winding country roads. You simply don't need a headlight that is
> appropriate for those conditions.

Every ride in a hilly area on a fast lowracer or fully-faired recumbent
at night? Motorcycle type speeds are easily obtained going downhill, and
a 3W dynamo light is not going to cut it.

Now if you are talking about riding around the city at normal cycle
speeds (15-40 kph), yes, a good hub dynamo and light with decent optics
is adequate if you allow for stupid motorists cutting you off when
pulling out of cross-streets and driveways.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 08:25:38
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:

> To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they will
> assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me off. If
> they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10 mph and cut
> me off. Happens quite often. :(

That is precisely what I've found while commuting. I was constantly
getting cut off with low-power lights, with vehicles exiting parking
lots and driveways, and turning left in front of me. They just don't
expect a bicycle to be going even 20 mph. With bright lights, especially
the sealed beams on my commute bike (due to the large diameter), they yield.

> Now if you are talking about riding around the city at normal cycle
> speeds (15-40 kph), yes, a good hub dynamo and light with decent optics
> is adequate if you allow for stupid motorists cutting you off when
> pulling out of cross-streets and driveways.

40kph is 25mph, and is far too fast to not outrun 3W lights no matter
what the power source. A vehicle turning in front of a bicycle is
expecting you to be riding 5-10 mph because that's the speed they ride
when out on the Huffy. 40kph is not "normal".

In any case, the original poster is clear on what he's looking
for--bright lights that will run for several hours. There are several
options, all involving trade-offs of cost, weight, size, run-time, and
lamp life.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"

Date: 07 Aug 2007 14:52:59
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46b88eb5$0$27203$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>
> > To the contrary, if the motorists think I am a motorcycle, they
> > will assume I am going at a typical motorcycle speed and not cut me
> > off. If they think bicycle, they will think I am going less than 10
> > mph and cut me off. Happens quite often. :(
>
> That is precisely what I've found while commuting. I was constantly
> getting cut off with low-power lights, with vehicles exiting parking
> lots and driveways, and turning left in front of me. They just don't
> expect a bicycle to be going even 20 mph. With bright lights,
> especially the sealed beams on my commute bike (due to the large
> diameter), they yield.

My experience is the opposite. Drivers are far more aware of me and are
far likelier to wait than they are during the day. Come to think of it,
I've never had any driver pull out in front of me and cut me off at
night. There are, of course, fewer opportunities as there are fewer
drivers out after dark.

> > Now if you are talking about riding around the city at normal cycle
> > speeds (15-40 kph), yes, a good hub dynamo and light with decent
> > optics is adequate if you allow for stupid motorists cutting you
> > off when pulling out of cross-streets and driveways.
>
> 40kph is 25mph, and is far too fast to not outrun 3W lights no matter
> what the power source.

Oh bullshit. Which orifice do you pull this stuff out of? I routinely
exceed 35 mph on descents with a 3W B&M Lumotec lamp and have no trouble
like this. I can see plenty far down the road.

> A vehicle turning in front of a bicycle is
> expecting you to be riding 5-10 mph because that's the speed they
> ride when out on the Huffy. 40kph is not "normal".

Depends on who you ride with, I guess.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 11:01:11
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tim McNamara wrote:

> My experience is the opposite. Drivers are far more aware of me and are
> far likelier to wait than they are during the day. Come to think of it,
> I've never had any driver pull out in front of me and cut me off at
> night. There are, of course, fewer opportunities as there are fewer
> drivers out after dark.

I definitely agree that at night the drivers are far likelier to wait,
but it's because in the daytime they _know_ you're a bicycle, but at
night, they just see a light coming and they have to judge the speed of
the approaching light. When you have reasonably bright lights, even just
10-15W, they are unsure whether it's a bicycles or something else. With
low-power lights of 1-3W, they realize that it's a bicycle and they
believe that bicycles are always going as slow as they ride.

I'm sure it varies by region of the world as well. In the U.S., you
definitely don't want to be riding 25mph at night with only 3 watt
lights, while in the more civilized countries of western Europe it's
probably adequate.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 19:36:12
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba04a9$0$27187$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > My experience is the opposite. Drivers are far more aware of me and are
> > far likelier to wait than they are during the day. Come to think of it,
> > I've never had any driver pull out in front of me and cut me off at
> > night. There are, of course, fewer opportunities as there are fewer
> > drivers out after dark.
>
> I definitely agree that at night the drivers are far likelier to wait,
> but it's because in the daytime they _know_ you're a bicycle, but at
> night, they just see a light coming and they have to judge the speed of
> the approaching light.

Nope, it's simply that there is less competing visual stimulus for you
to get lost against and a much more beneficial contrast effect (bright
objects on a dark background are easier to see than dark objects on a
light background).

> When you have reasonably bright lights, even just 10-15W, they are
> unsure whether it's a bicycles or something else. With low-power
> lights of 1-3W, they realize that it's a bicycle and they believe
> that bicycles are always going as slow as they ride.

It's easier to track a bright small object in a dark visual field but
harder to estimate its speed. People understand this intuitively, which
is one of the reasons they wait.

> I'm sure it varies by region of the world as well. In the U.S., you
> definitely don't want to be riding 25mph at night with only 3 watt
> lights, while in the more civilized countries of western Europe it's
> probably adequate.

I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the US.
Where do you get this stuff?

Date: 09 Aug 2007 01:43:33
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net > wrote in message
news:timmcn-68F06A.19361208082007@news.iphouse.com...

> I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the US.

I wish I did too - but it's not the lighting which is the limiting factor
:-)

cheers,
clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 18:52:09
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-68F06A.19361208082007@news.iphouse.com...
>
>> I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the US.
>
> I wish I did too - but it's not the lighting which is the limiting
> factor :-)

LOL, well you can certainly use a 3W light for high speed riding, be it
in the UK or in the US, it's just not a very wise thing to do in terms
of safety.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 22:38:29
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba730b$0$27225$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Clive George wrote:
> > "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> > news:timmcn-68F06A.19361208082007@news.iphouse.com...
> >
> >> I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the
> >> US.
> >
> > I wish I did too - but it's not the lighting which is the limiting
> > factor :-)
>
> LOL, well you can certainly use a 3W light for high speed riding, be
> it in the UK or in the US, it's just not a very wise thing to do in
> terms of safety.

Thousands of miles at night using a 3W halogen lamp and a generator.
Zero close calls. You're wrong in your assumption that doing so is
unwise or unsafe.

Date: 09 Aug 2007 03:02:07
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46ba730b$0$27225$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Clive George wrote:
>> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>> news:timmcn-68F06A.19361208082007@news.iphouse.com...
>>
>>> I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the US.
>>
>> I wish I did too - but it's not the lighting which is the limiting factor
>> :-)
>
> LOL, well you can certainly use a 3W light for high speed riding, be it in
> the UK or in the US, it's just not a very wise thing to do in terms of
> safety.

Oh dear, I must be dead then given my fairly regular habit of going 35-40mph
on unlit roads (ok, road - it's one hill) at night.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, your worries about safety are unfounded.

clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 20:40:33
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
> news:timmcn-68F06A.19361208082007@news.iphouse.com...
>
>> I have had no problem at all riding 25 mph with a 3W light in the US.
>
> I wish I did too - but it's not the lighting which is the limiting
> factor :-)

To judge by his email address, Clive is happily in the UK and not the US. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 20:10:42
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 10:03 pm, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 6, 7:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jay Beattie wrote:
> > > A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
> > > something portable. I also want as much illumination as economically
> > > feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain and fast descents
> > > in areas that are poorly illuminated but that have lots of point light
> > > source polution (cars and homes in the hills). -- Jay Beattie.
>
> > I'm in a similar situation, as are I suspect most bike commuters (which
> > is why dynamo systems aren't very popular in the U.S..
>
> > I have a dynamo system that's good for short trips to the store on
> > streets that I'm familiar with, at low speeds, but a dynamo system isn't
> > viable for most commute conditions, where you need greater brightness
> > for both higher speeds and either unlit streets or streets where you
> > need the brighter lights to stand out.
>
> More bull.
>
> While I won't doubt that _some_ rare conditions may need more light
> output than a typical dynamo delivers, it's absolutely false to
> pretend dynamos must be limited to low speeds, streets with street
> lights, etc. It's garbage to pretend they don't work for "most
> commuting conditions."
>
> First, I gave up using my rechargeables long ago. I still have them
> (and just replaced one battery, in case someone needs to borrow it)
> but I long ago found they just weren't worth carrying around. The
> generators I have on all my bikes are simply better. The light output
> is absolutely sufficient for speeds up to 20 mph at least, and for
> streets with street lights, streets and roads without street lights,
> low traffic, high traffic - I've used these lights in all those
> conditions.
>
> Furthermore, I just returned from a European vacation in four
> countries. The bicycle use I saw totally eclipsed what I've seen in
> _any_ US city. That's commuting and utility use by all types and ages
> of people, not "let's drive our bikes to the bike path" use. The big
> majority of the bikes had lights, and almost all were generator
> powered, not battery powered. Most of the world's commuters are
> using generators.
>
> If anyone thinks a decent generator set doesn't throw enough light to
> be seen, observe one in action. I've had others ride my bike in
> various test situations so I could observe it. I've demonstrated it
> to others. _Nobody_ has ever said it's not bright enough to be
> conspicuous. In fact, the comments I've gotten have all been like
> "Wow - that _is_ bright!"
>
> Coincidentally, I had a rather well-known bicycle advocate from out of
> state visit a few nights ago. At one point, he proudly showed me the
> new battery-powered headlight he'd just bought - a small LED unit. I
> took him downstairs so we could compare with my standard generator
> set. It was literally no contest; the generator was _much_ brighter -
> yet he rides and commutes in one of our country's busiest major cities
> using his LED light.
>
> Keep in mind, generator sets are still popular with people riding
> Paris-Brest-Paris. That's including endurance riding in hilly
> terrain, high speeds, unfamiliar roads, varying street light
> conditions ... all those horrors Scharf needs aircraft landing lights
> to survive.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Yes, it's yet another round of "Krygowski v. Scharf"!

It reminds me of what Oscar Wilde said about fox hunting: "The
Unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible".

Date: 06 Aug 2007 20:03:00
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 7:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
> > something portable. I also want as much illumination as economically
> > feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain and fast descents
> > in areas that are poorly illuminated but that have lots of point light
> > source polution (cars and homes in the hills). -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I'm in a similar situation, as are I suspect most bike commuters (which
> is why dynamo systems aren't very popular in the U.S..
>
> I have a dynamo system that's good for short trips to the store on
> streets that I'm familiar with, at low speeds, but a dynamo system isn't
> viable for most commute conditions, where you need greater brightness
> for both higher speeds and either unlit streets or streets where you
> need the brighter lights to stand out.

More bull.

While I won't doubt that _some_ rare conditions may need more light
output than a typical dynamo delivers, it's absolutely false to
pretend dynamos must be limited to low speeds, streets with street
lights, etc. It's garbage to pretend they don't work for "most
commuting conditions."

First, I gave up using my rechargeables long ago. I still have them
(and just replaced one battery, in case someone needs to borrow it)
but I long ago found they just weren't worth carrying around. The
generators I have on all my bikes are simply better. The light output
is absolutely sufficient for speeds up to 20 mph at least, and for
streets with street lights, streets and roads without street lights,
low traffic, high traffic - I've used these lights in all those
conditions.

Furthermore, I just returned from a European vacation in four
countries. The bicycle use I saw totally eclipsed what I've seen in
_any_ US city. That's commuting and utility use by all types and ages
of people, not "let's drive our bikes to the bike path" use. The big
majority of the bikes had lights, and almost all were generator
powered, not battery powered. Most of the world's commuters are
using generators.

If anyone thinks a decent generator set doesn't throw enough light to
be seen, observe one in action. I've had others ride my bike in
various test situations so I could observe it. I've demonstrated it
to others. _Nobody_ has ever said it's not bright enough to be
conspicuous. In fact, the comments I've gotten have all been like
"Wow - that _is_ bright!"

Coincidentally, I had a rather well-known bicycle advocate from out of
state visit a few nights ago. At one point, he proudly showed me the
new battery-powered headlight he'd just bought - a small LED unit. I
took him downstairs so we could compare with my standard generator
set. It was literally no contest; the generator was _much_ brighter -
yet he rides and commutes in one of our country's busiest major cities
using his LED light.

Keep in mind, generator sets are still popular with people riding
Paris-Brest-Paris. That's including endurance riding in hilly
terrain, high speeds, unfamiliar roads, varying street light
conditions ... all those horrors Scharf needs aircraft landing lights
to survive.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 07 Aug 2007 00:00:10
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <1186455780.107598.237820@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com >,
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:

> On Aug 6, 7:58 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > Jay Beattie wrote:
> > > A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
> > > something portable. I also want as much illumination as
> > > economically feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain
> > > and fast descents in areas that are poorly illuminated but that
> > > have lots of point light source polution (cars and homes in the
> > > hills). -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > I'm in a similar situation, as are I suspect most bike commuters
> > (which is why dynamo systems aren't very popular in the U.S..
> >
> > I have a dynamo system that's good for short trips to the store on
> > streets that I'm familiar with, at low speeds, but a dynamo system
> > isn't viable for most commute conditions, where you need greater
> > brightness for both higher speeds and either unlit streets or
> > streets where you need the brighter lights to stand out.
>
> More bull.

Yup, it is, it's not new and SMS has been pounding this particular dead
horse for years. I have no trouble believing that he finds the
available generator lights insufficient for his preferences. I have
trouble with his baseless extrapolation that generator lights are
therefore useless for everyone else. After riding from dusk to dawn
multiple times with my generator lights, I know he's wrong about that.
Every time on my commutes or fun rides when night falls and I can just
flip a switch and have lights, without having to wonder if I charged up
the battery, I know he's wrong. But I'm not going to waste my time
trying to convince him of that. If he was going to come around and see
the light (as it were), he'd have already done so.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 19:46:17
From:
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 9:22 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
> commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
> dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
> commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such a
> big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.

Steven M. Scharf is making another fundamental mistake with units.
He's made worse ones on his website, but this one still needs
explanation.

It's pretty shortsighted to say you want a more powerful dynamo.
That's not what you're after. If, indeed, you can't cycle with a
standard 3W generator headlight, there's a good chance that you want
better optics. Some (especially older) generator headlamps had optics
that weren't great. IME, modern generator headlamps put the light
output - that is, the available lumens - to much better use.

And it could be that SMS/Scharf's aversion to generators comes from
that problem. How else to explain the fact that he slams generators
every chance he gets, and so many people find them best of all?

But to continue: Even if optics aren't the problem, and (say) a
person had deficient night vision, what that person would want would
be more lumens, not more watts. The distinction is important: lumens
are a measure of total light output; Watts are a measurement of
electrical (or other) power. Power is not the same thing as light
output.

This is significant because we're at a point in time when LEDs are
starting to exceed halogen bulbs in lumens-per-Watt. The first LED
generator headlights are now on the market. They will rapidly
improve, and probably rapidly drop in price, just as LED battery
lights have done.

And an extra-efficient LED lamp driven by a generator set has the
possibility of more light with all the convenience of a generator set
(i.e. never worrying about recharging, replacing, or running too long
for your batteries; never worrying about not having a headlight on
your bike, etc.)

Alternately, for those folks who feel they can't stand generator drag
equivalent to climbing five feet in a mile, (0.1% grade),
manufacturers may come out with lower power, lower drag generators
that produce the same amount of light as current ones. (see
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html about drag.)

Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
look like a supernova.

- Frank Krygowski

Date: 06 Aug 2007 21:52:53
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> ...
> Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
> vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
> cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
> look like a supernova.

I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
type speeds.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 09:06:02
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> frkrygow@gmail.com aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> ...
>> Of course, the current amount of light works extremely well for the
>> vast majority of the world's nighttime cyclists. It's only the non-
>> cycling countries - like the US - where many people think they need to
>> look like a supernova.
>
> I want to look like a motorcycle to motorized traffic, and I want the
> light output of a motorcycle headlight when descending at motorcycle
> type speeds.
>

One thing I've found is that larger diameter headlights are also useful,
not just extreme brightness.

Relatively low wattage headlights, like the Malibu 14W LV504 (see
http://www.nordicgroup.us/s78/images/img_0281.jpg) give the impression
of a non-bicycle, even though they are a lot lower wattage than the
typical high performance system. I often only use one lamp, and I may
just change the setup to a single lamp, as 14W is really sufficient.
These lamps are also available in 11 watt and 25 watt, and are very
inexpensive and very light. The large reflector increases the efficiency
as well, though they are only available in "flood". For my needs they're
fine but I rarely go more than 25 mph while commuting.

For $35 you can buy a lamp (Home Depot), a sealed-lead-acid battery
(allelectronics.com), and a charger (harborfreight.com). Add a bit of
wire, a fuse and holder, and a switch, and you're at around $40. Add a
very bright xenon flashing tail light, and you're up to $50 (plus a
couple of hours work) for a very good commute system. The lamp is so
light that it's fine on even a plastic reflector bracket.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 12:32:15
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 6, 6:17 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk > wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:46b71e54$0$27214$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
> > It's a similar situation for dynamo lights, they're great for relatively
> > low speed riding, but the limited available energy results in a beam that
> > is not powerful enough for fast riding on dark roads, at least this is
> > what all the experts say ("http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html").
>
> "SMS spoils otherwise decent post by including pet nonsense again shock!"
>
> (for the uninitiated, SMS doesn't like dynamo lights, and doesn't believe
> they can be used safely - contrary to the experience of many happy users)

A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
something portable. I also want as much illumination as economically
feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain and fast descents
in areas that are poorly illuminated but that have lots of point light
source polution (cars and homes in the hills). -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 16:58:23
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie wrote:

> A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
> something portable. I also want as much illumination as economically
> feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain and fast descents
> in areas that are poorly illuminated but that have lots of point light
> source polution (cars and homes in the hills). -- Jay Beattie.

I'm in a similar situation, as are I suspect most bike commuters (which
is why dynamo systems aren't very popular in the U.S..

I have a dynamo system that's good for short trips to the store on
streets that I'm familiar with, at low speeds, but a dynamo system isn't
viable for most commute conditions, where you need greater brightness
for both higher speeds and either unlit streets or streets where you
need the brighter lights to stand out.

I also used to use a dynamo system in my college town, and it was fine
for going around campus and surrounding student neighborhoods, back in
the days when bicycles were the way to get around campus. Now the campus
is much more spread out, so you'd think bicycles would be even more
practical, but they've lost favor and the students use the bus system more.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Google "bicycle lighting" then click on "I'm Feeling Lucky."

Date: 07 Aug 2007 01:12:49
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46b7b564$0$27219$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...

> I have a dynamo system that's good for short trips to the store on streets
> that I'm familiar with, at low speeds, but a dynamo system isn't viable
> for most commute conditions, where you need greater brightness for both
> higher speeds and either unlit streets or streets where you need the
> brighter lights to stand out.

Rephrase that as "I want" rather than "you need", and you're getting closer.
There are plenty of people out there demonstrating that your requirement is
bogus. If you _want_ bright battery lamps, I'm not going to stop you - but
keep on saying the others aren't good enough for anybody and I'll keep on
pointing out you're wrong.

(did I mention I've used dynamo lights for commute conditions encompassing
both lit city riding and unlit rural, at fairly respectable speeds (never
faster than 44mph though IIRC)? Oh yes, I probably did - you just seem to
have forgotten it _again_.)

clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 22:07:35
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:1186428735.071651.288690@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 6, 6:17 am, "Clive George" <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:46b71e54$0$27214$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>
>> > It's a similar situation for dynamo lights, they're great for
>> > relatively
>> > low speed riding, but the limited available energy results in a beam
>> > that
>> > is not powerful enough for fast riding on dark roads, at least this is
>> > what all the experts say ("http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html").
>>
>> "SMS spoils otherwise decent post by including pet nonsense again shock!"
>>
>> (for the uninitiated, SMS doesn't like dynamo lights, and doesn't believe
>> they can be used safely - contrary to the experience of many happy users)
>
> A dynamo is not an option for me because I switch bikes and need
> something portable. I also want as much illumination as economically
> feasible due to my riding conditions -- lots of rain and fast descents
> in areas that are poorly illuminated but that have lots of point light
> source polution (cars and homes in the hills). -- Jay Beattie.

Yeah - I didn't include you in the uninitiated :-)

cheers,
clive

Date: 03 Aug 2007 23:48:31
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 04 Aug 2007 04:46:38
From: bob prohaska's usenet account
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.

Well, how about mine? 8-)

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/bicycle/

bob prohaska

Date: 03 Aug 2007 23:28:17
From: mike.a.schwab@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 2, 7:26 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.

I use the Cateye EL-500 $45 30 hours on 4 AA Duracells.

Date: 04 Aug 2007 09:12:27
From: cv
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

mike.a.schwab@gmail.com wrote:
> On Aug 2, 7:26 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
>> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
>> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
>> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> I use the Cateye EL-500 $45 30 hours on 4 AA Duracells.
>
-------------
I use a EL-500 and a DiNotte, they both
complement each other. Also I never
ride with just one light, in case one fails.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 01:14:35
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

cv wrote:
>>
>> I use the Cateye EL-500 $45 30 hours on 4 AA Duracells.
>>
> -------------
> I use a EL-500 and a DiNotte, they both complement each other. Also I
> never ride with just one light, in case one fails.

I have double EL-500's on both my bikes, mostly use one at a time but
both work too. I've never declined to ride somewhere at night because I
thought my lights weren't bright enough.

I have a EL530 bought for one bike I'm building, the regulated output is
nice but I don't know I like the beam shape (a round tight center spot
with wide spill). But as the EL-500 is discontinued I suppose half that
decision is already made. The EL500 was the best cheapie headlight
around a year ago.

The important factor for choosing a light (I think) is that the reason
for using it is to allow you to see and avoid road debris that is
potentially harmful to your tires.... and {while riding at a typical
speed} how far away can you spot a nail or screw, even in daylight? Five
yards? Seven yards perhaps? Lighting beyond this distance does not
matter, because it is no help anyway. ....If there was a screw lying in
your path 100 yards away, you don't NEED to light it at night, because
even in daylight you wouldn't be able to spot the screw anyway.

The other odd argument I've heard in favor of ultra-bright bike lights
is that "they help oncoming traffic see you". The problem with this
argument is that if you're riding with traffic, then oncoming cars are
on the opposite side of the road anyway. The main risk is cars coming up
behind you, and they probably won't seen your headlight at all, if it's
1 watt or 1000 watts.
~

Date: 07 Aug 2007 15:36:30
From: Crescentius Vespasianus
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

> I have a EL530 bought for one bike I'm building, the regulated output is
> nice but I don't know I like the beam shape (a round tight center spot
> with wide spill). But as the EL-500 is discontinued I suppose half that
> decision is already made. The EL500 was the best cheapie headlight
> around a year ago.
>
------------------
Is the el-530 brighter than the 500?
Can you put the spot farther out with
the 530 than you can the 500? As you
know if you put the spot on the 500 too
far out you don't see any illumination.

Date: 08 Aug 2007 14:24:08
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
>
>> I have a EL530 bought for one bike I'm building, the regulated output
>> is nice but I don't know I like the beam shape (a round tight center
>> spot with wide spill). But as the EL-500 is discontinued I suppose
>> half that decision is already made. The EL500 was the best cheapie
>> headlight around a year ago.
>>
> ------------------
> Is the el-530 brighter than the 500? Can you put the spot farther out
> with the 530 than you can the 500? As you know if you put the spot on
> the 500 too far out you don't see any illumination.

There is a comparison chart, of sorts, at
"http://www.cateye.com/sites/cateye/upload/product_charts/LightPOPfront.pdf".

You really want to be comparing lumens, not candlepower, for lighting.
There is a good explanation of the difference at
"http://www.stkildacycles.com.au/products_lightsSafety.htm".

Even though many people still use watts for comparison, and I slip into
that myself occasionally, it's really inaccurate especially with HID
lamps. Also, the LED lights tend to have high candlepower ratings, but
low lumen ratings, due to their inherent characteristics, which of
course is why they're comparing candlepower on the CatEye site.

The EL-5xx series is really for "being seen". Four AA batteries aren't
going to power any sufficiently bright light for very long.

One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good optics
and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output. This is why all
the high-end lighting systems use the precision matched MR type of bulb
and reflector.

Steve
"http://bicyclelighting.com"
Earth's Independent Source for Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information

Date: 09 Aug 2007 06:26:33
From: Doc O'Leary
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba343a$0$27223$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> There is a comparison chart, of sorts, at
> "http://www.cateye.com/sites/cateye/upload/product_charts/LightPOPfront.pdf".
>
> You really want to be comparing lumens, not candlepower, for lighting.
> There is a good explanation of the difference at
> "http://www.stkildacycles.com.au/products_lightsSafety.htm".
>
> Even though many people still use watts for comparison, and I slip into
> that myself occasionally, it's really inaccurate especially with HID
> lamps. Also, the LED lights tend to have high candlepower ratings, but
> low lumen ratings, due to their inherent characteristics, which of
> course is why they're comparing candlepower on the CatEye site.

No, they're using candlepower because their charts represent brightness
across the beam pattern, not simply the lumen output of the LED used.

> The EL-5xx series is really for "being seen". Four AA batteries aren't
> going to power any sufficiently bright light for very long.

A single AA could power a sufficiently bright laser to burn holes in
your retina for hours. It's all a question of what you're doing with
the lighting you have. I've used the EL-510 to light an isolated bike
path just fine for 20mph riding, but the same light looks positively
anemic when you're on the road with street lamps and cars ruining your
night vision.

> One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good optics
> and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output.

That makes no sense at all; did you really read and understand the sites
you link to? Optics don't do jack for lumen ratings. The only real
advantage of incandescent lights is that people who are bad at math will
buy them based the Watt usage they're familiar with at home. There's
probably a pretty good correlation between people who use fluorescents
in their house and people who aren't suckered into buying bike lights
based on how much they chew up batteries.

--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, 4ax.com, buzzardnews.com, googlegroups.com,
heapnode.com, localhost, teranews.com, x-privat.org

Date: 09 Aug 2007 08:40:53
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Doc O'Leary wrote:

> No, they're using candlepower because their charts represent brightness
> across the beam pattern, not simply the lumen output of the LED used.

You need to reread the explanation. "Candlepower, as it is used to
describe lighting systems, describes the brightest point in the beam
pattern of a light. It is a point measurement of light and does not take
into account the light elsewhere in the beam pattern."

The photo at that link shows it all. The same candlepower can have
vastly different lumens.
"http://www.stkildacycles.com.au/images/lights/lights_candle.jpg"

It suits the purpose of some manufacturers to quote candlepower, but for
bicycle lighting (and many other types of lighting), the point
measurement is less important than the rest of the beam pattern, and
hence lumens should be used when comparing different lights. As the
source explains, two lights with the same candlepower can have vastly
different lumen ratings.

I think I'm going to have to add more explanations of this to the web
site, as it appears to be an area of confusion.

Steve
http://bicyclelighting.com

Date: 10 Aug 2007 09:54:00
From: Doc O'Leary
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46bb3547$0$27210$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Doc O'Leary wrote:
>
> > No, they're using candlepower because their charts represent brightness
> > across the beam pattern, not simply the lumen output of the LED used.
>
> You need to reread the explanation. "Candlepower, as it is used to
> describe lighting systems, describes the brightest point in the beam
> pattern of a light. It is a point measurement of light and does not take
> into account the light elsewhere in the beam pattern."
>
> The photo at that link shows it all. The same candlepower can have
> vastly different lumens.
> "http://www.stkildacycles.com.au/images/lights/lights_candle.jpg"

All of which supports *my* point, so it is you who really needs to keep
re-reading until you understand the difference. I'm amazed that you can
even pull out and directly quote the evidence and yet still be so mixed
up about it.

> It suits the purpose of some manufacturers to quote candlepower, but for
> bicycle lighting (and many other types of lighting), the point
> measurement is less important than the rest of the beam pattern, and
> hence lumens should be used when comparing different lights. As the
> source explains, two lights with the same candlepower can have vastly
> different lumen ratings.

Manufacturers are all over the board on the issue, so I suggest ignoring
their marketing departments entirely and use your brain when shopping
for lighting systems. The only thing a wattage tells you is how much
energy is consumed; never buy from a manufacturer that only lists this.
Lumens give the total light output, but how useful that is depends
greatly on the beam pattern. Candlepower is the brightest point which,
again, is of questionable value when the beam pattern isn't given. I
would definitely prefer the companies to standardize on lumens, but to
also prominently show the beam pattern as well.

> I think I'm going to have to add more explanations of this to the web
> site, as it appears to be an area of confusion.

The confusion is yours. Find someone who knows that optics won't change
the lumen rating to do the addition.

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Date: 09 Aug 2007 00:24:12
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46ba343a$0$27223$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...

> One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good optics
> and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output. This is why all the
> high-end lighting systems use the precision matched MR type of bulb and
> reflector.

Do these MR bulbs produce a beam optimised for riding, or something simpler?

cheers,
clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 17:43:07
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:46ba343a$0$27223$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>> One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good
>> optics and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output. This is
>> why all the high-end lighting systems use the precision matched MR
>> type of bulb and reflector.
>
> Do these MR bulbs produce a beam optimised for riding, or something
> simpler?

You can choose the beam you want, with angles from about 7-36 degrees
for the MR16. These lamps are widely used in driving lights, so it's a
good beam for illuminating the road.

With low power lamps often used in dynamo systems, you often get a
narrow focused beam. It's a compromise that must be made, but it's not
the safest option. I use dynamo headlamps on occasion, and it's very
noticeable that the beam isn't illuminating anything but directly in
front of the bicycle.

As Marty Goodman wrote, in History of Electric Lighting Technology
(regarding HID), "With vastly more light available, night bicycling is
qualitatively far safer. The road can be lit both further ahead and,
even more important, far more brightly to the sides of the bicycle."

Date: 09 Aug 2007 01:49:51
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46ba62dd$0$27216$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Clive George wrote:
>> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:46ba343a$0$27223$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>
>>> One of the big advantages of incandescent lamps is that with good optics
>>> and reflectors you can really boost the lumen output. This is why all
>>> the high-end lighting systems use the precision matched MR type of bulb
>>> and reflector.
>>
>> Do these MR bulbs produce a beam optimised for riding, or something
>> simpler?
>
> You can choose the beam you want, with angles from about 7-36 degrees for
> the MR16. These lamps are widely used in driving lights, so it's a good
> beam for illuminating the road.

And all the stuff to the side of it. And the sky - which doesn't really gain
from lighting, does it?Light up the stuff near to you, and you lose the
ability to see in the distance. A properly focussed beam on the actual road
gives you the light you need to avoid obstacles, etc, and the light spill
off to the sides gives you the "being seen" thing.

> With low power lamps often used in dynamo systems, you often get a narrow
> focused beam. It's a compromise that must be made, but it's not the safest
> option. I use dynamo headlamps on occasion, and it's very noticeable that
> the beam isn't illuminating anything but directly in front of the bicycle.

Which is how it should be.

cheers,
clive

Date: 08 Aug 2007 18:18:28
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:

> And all the stuff to the side of it. And the sky - which doesn't really
> gain from lighting, does it?

If you're illuminating the sky, then your headlight is improperly aimed.
Just as with automobile and motorcycle headlights, the low beam does not
illuminate the sky. OTOH, you definitely do want to illuminate the
sides, it's just that the typical headlight for dynamo systems can't
spare the light to do so.

As Marty Goodman wrote, in History of Electric Lighting Technology
(regarding HID), "With vastly more light available, night bicycling is
qualitatively far safer. The road can be lit both further ahead and,
even more important, far more brightly to the sides of the bicycle."

Date: 08 Aug 2007 22:41:47
From: Tim McNamara
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

In article <46ba6b26$0$27163$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net >,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote:

> Clive George wrote:
>
> > And all the stuff to the side of it. And the sky - which doesn't
> > really gain from lighting, does it?
>
> If you're illuminating the sky, then your headlight is improperly
> aimed. Just as with automobile and motorcycle headlights, the low
> beam does not illuminate the sky. OTOH, you definitely do want to
> illuminate the sides, it's just that the typical headlight for dynamo
> systems can't spare the light to do so.

What planet do you live on, Steven? My Lumotecs provide plenty of light
down the road and enough spillover light to the side.

> As Marty Goodman wrote, in History of Electric Lighting Technology
> (regarding HID), "With vastly more light available, night bicycling
> is qualitatively far safer. The road can be lit both further ahead
> and, even more important, far more brightly to the sides of the
> bicycle."

Check out "appeal to authority" as a logical fallacy.

Date: 03 Aug 2007 08:20:49
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 3, 7:33 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
> > The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> > my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> > looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> > burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Get the Big Bang. It'll run 4.5 hours on the Li-Ion battery.
>
> "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp"

And it's only $953. I'll take two! -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 06 Aug 2007 06:13:52
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Aug 3, 7:33 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
>>> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
>>> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
>>> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>> Get the Big Bang. It'll run 4.5 hours on the Li-Ion battery.
>>
>> "http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp"
>
> And it's only $953. I'll take two! -- Jay Beattie.

Don't forget the $3 for the plug adapter!

Seriously, not all that much has changed, except for the high-end Luxeon
LED lights from companies like DiNotte. These are good lights, though
they aren't as efficient as HID lights.

The ideal lighting system (at least in terms of illumination) will
consist of both a flood and a spot beam, or an adjustable beam. Most of
the high-end quartz-halogen and HID systems are dual beam. There are now
some LED systems that also come with both a spot and a flood, i.e. the
Dinotte Lithium -Dual- 5-3W, but they aren't cheap.

Of course you can build an excellent dual beam system for a lot less
than the commercial systems, if you're so inclined.

What you want to avoid, since you stated that brightness is important,
is the LED lights with low power LEDs, such as the Cateye EL-500 These
are okay for "being seen" but they don't illuminate much of anything,
especially if you're riding fairly rapidly. As one reviewer wrote (of
the EL-500), "I made the mistake of hoping this light would be enough to
light my way, rather than just get the attention of motorists and
pedestrians. The beam is too narrow and not bright enough for anything
but really slow riding in the dark. I think it's okay for being seen,
but only okay."

It's a similar situation for dynamo lights, they're great for relatively
low speed riding, but the limited available energy results in a beam
that is not powerful enough for fast riding on dark roads, at least this
is what all the experts say ("http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html").

Steve
http://bicyclelighting.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 14:17:21
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46b71e54$0$27214$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...

> It's a similar situation for dynamo lights, they're great for relatively
> low speed riding, but the limited available energy results in a beam that
> is not powerful enough for fast riding on dark roads, at least this is
> what all the experts say ("http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html").

"SMS spoils otherwise decent post by including pet nonsense again shock!"

(for the uninitiated, SMS doesn't like dynamo lights, and doesn't believe
they can be used safely - contrary to the experience of many happy users)

clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 10:00:29
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
> news:46b71e54$0$27214$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>
>> It's a similar situation for dynamo lights, they're great for
>> relatively low speed riding, but the limited available energy results
>> in a beam that is not powerful enough for fast riding on dark roads,
>> at least this is what all the experts say
>> ("http://nordicgroup.us/s78/experts.html").
>
> "SMS spoils otherwise decent post by including pet nonsense again shock!"
>
> (for the uninitiated, SMS doesn't like dynamo lights, and doesn't
> believe they can be used safely - contrary to the experience of many
> happy users)

I don't dislike or like them. I have some dynamo lights. They are fine
for use in certain circumstances, certainly in bicycle-friendly places,
like the Netherlands, they are often sufficient.

However I do agree with all the experts regarding the relative safety of
the different types of lights. For commuting at relatively high speeds,
you want to light the road both further ahead, and further to the sides
than is possible with dynamo powered lights, other than perhaps a 6W
dynamo system.

Find someone with some expertise that disagrees with all the
experts--I'm open to what they have to say if it's more than 'I use
dynamo lights and I'm alive, so they must be okay,' or 'I asked someone
to look at me riding and tell me if they could see me,' or 'look at the
Netherlands.'

North Carolina Bicycle Coalition
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/lights/lights.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
...a cyclist operating at 15 mph can see well enough with less than 600
candlepower (e.g. 12 watt halogen), and a cyclist operating at 7.5 mph
can see far enough in with less than 150 candlepower (e.g. 3 watt
halogen). The light provided by a bicycle headlamp may be focused into a
narrow beam for maximum range, or may be spread out for better
peripheral vision. A three watt lamp can be focused into a beam suitable
for high speed cycling on the darkest roads, but will not give much
illumination of turns. North Carolina Bicycle Coalition

Sacramento Area Bicycle Advocates
(http://www.sacbike.org/articles/article.php?mode=display&lognum=17)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you want to cycle at low speeds in areas with street lights, other
ambient lighting, or when there's a full moon on a cloudless night, a
low wattage light is OK. If you actually want to see obstacles in darker
areas, you need a more powerful light, from 10 to 30 watts or more. With
the added power come a couple of penalties, much higher costs and more
weight. These lights can run from $70 to well over $200. Their weights,
mostly from the batteries (often rechargeable NiCads) can go from 2 to 3
pounds."

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_lighting (prior to being
repeatedly vandalized)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are several types of bicycle lights available. In North America,
most commuters choose to use high power halogen lights, which operate
from a rechargeable battery. In parts of Europe, low power lights that
operate from a dynamo are still popular, but are slowly being replaced
by safer, higher power, battery operated halogen lights. Front LED
lights are useful for being seen, but do not project a good beam for
illuminating the road. For rear lights, LED flashers are popular in
North America, but illegal in most other countries. A better choice for
a rear lamp, where flashing lamps are legal, is a xenon strobe, because
it is less directional.

Many cycle commuters build their own lighting systems with commonly
available lamps, batteries, and chargers. One method is to use a
generator stored in the hub of the front wheel. This method requires no
external batteries or chargers because the power source is always
available."

Bicycle Federation of Wisconsin
(http://www.bfw.org/new_bfw/articles/brightideas.php?printable=true)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Generators One of the oldest lighting systems is the generator. This
type of lighting works off a generator (or dynamo) that is powered when
it makes contact with the bicycle's tire. A generator system is often
set up to power a headlight and a taillight. These systems are reliable,
but often lack the power to really light up the road. Generators are
more popular in Europe than in the United States."

Ken Kifer http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/traffic/traffic.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"For commuters, the best front light is the very bright rechargeable
lamp. For the day tourer, it's important to carry a small,
battery-powered lamp for the trip that ends up finishing after daylight
has ended. Unfortunately, many of the lights sold for this purpose are
inadequate. For long-distance travelers, those who ride long distances
in the country at night, or those whose habits are sporadic, a generator
front light is bright and always available for use."

Ice Bike (http://icebike.com/Equipment/lights.htm)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
.....my personal first priority is brightness. Not just because its hard
to see, but because being seen is even more difficult. If you are doing
city riding, you need more light than country riding. 6 watts is
adequate on a dark country road, but would be totally overpowered in a
city environment.

Ken Kifer (http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/commute/accessor.htm)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been using generator lights for many years, and I find them very
suitable for riding in the country at night and on touring trips. There
are no batteries to fade or go bad, and the light gets brighter while
going downhill. The beam is very wide and thus visible from all sides.
On the other hand, a generator light is not very bright in city traffic
and goes out each time you stop at a red light.

I have great respect for Ken Kifer's writings. He was able to admit that
he used dynamo powered lights, explain what the advantages were to
dynamo powered lights, while at the same time stating why what he used
may not be be the right solution in other situations (in this case, city
traffic).

Peter Cole
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'm always surprised that so many serious cyclists who otherwise
recognize the equivalence of bicycles to other vehicles take exception
to lighting requirements. I wouldn't dare operate a motorcycle with a 3W
light, so I don't understand the recommendation to operate a bicycle (at
often similar speeds ) with such inadequate lights. Perhaps this was an
accommodation to the technological limitations of the past, but in these
times of readily available and relatively cheap, high-wattage
alternatives, it seems a bad way to go."

Steven Goodridge
(http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/lights/lights.htm)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"...a cyclist operating at 15 mph can see well enough with less than 600
candlepower (e.g. 12 Watt halogen), and a cyclist operating at 7.5 mph
can see far enough in with less than 150 candlepower (e.g. 3 Watt
halogen). The light provided by a bicycle headlamp may be focused into a
narrow beam for maximum range, or may be spread out for better
peripheral vision. A three Watt lamp can be focused into a beam suitable
for high speed cycling on the darkest roads, but will not give much
illumination of turns." This is a good, succinct, evaluation of the
trade-offs inherent with low power lighting.

Paul Dorn (http://www.runmuki.com/commute/commuting10.html)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The more expensive lights, which use a rechargeable battery mounted on
the frame, are essential if you ride at night."

Date: 11 Aug 2007 03:47:14
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 10, 10:59 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Aug 10, 6:10 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <46bc9b0b$0$27187$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
>
> > SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > > Tim McNamara wrote:
> > > > In article <46bc8360$0$27217$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
> > > > SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > > >>> I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't
> > > >>> change between localities.
> > > >> Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were
> > > >> not common knowledge.
>
> > > >> I've added a section to the web site that explains the
> > > >> differences. It's entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added
> > > >> a bookmark for it near the top of the site, or you can go directly
> > > >> there with "http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".
>
> > > > Good grief, what a load of piffle.
>
> > > Hmm, a British English word. I think you do understand the difference
> > > between localities.
>
> > It doesn't matter. Bicycling all night long in rural France is no
> > different than bicycling all night long in rural Minnesota and Iowa,
> > having had the opportunity to do both. Bicycling at night in Paris is
> > marginally different than bicycling at night in Minneapolis- there were
> > (at the time) no bikes lanes in Paris, plus the "I don't really know
> > where the hell I'm going" aspect in Paris, too. And there's no Champs
> > Elysee or Eiffel tower in Minneapolis. Traffic was much more intense in
> > Paris. My Schmidt SON and Lumotec Plus proved perfectly adequate in all
> > those situations.
>
> > Your desperation to split hairs in defense of your flawed theses is
> > piffle. Or "twaddle" if you prefer. "Merde," even. "A crock" would
> > also suffice.
>
> > > >> Steve "http://bicyclelighting.com" Earth's Independent Source for
> > > >> Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information
>
> > > > "Misinformed Lighting Information" would be far more accurate.
>
> > > Of course you didn't point out anything that wasn't accurate in that
> > > list.
>
> > Why bother? You never take anyone's advice if it disagrees with your
> > preconceptions.-
>
> Why should he? In everything from bicycle chains to bicycle lights to
> bicycle racks and bicycle construction, Steve Scharf is Da Man, the
> world's foremost expert, the A-1, absolute, hotshot, mostest best!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

jeeez people in the Ozarks use headlights
what will they think of next?
TP?

Date: 10 Aug 2007 19:59:43
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 10, 6:10 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net > wrote:
> In article <46bc9b0b$0$27187$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
>
>
>
>
>
> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > Tim McNamara wrote:
> > > In article <46bc8360$0$27217$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
> > > SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > >>> I'm also smart enough to know that the laws of physics don't
> > >>> change between localities.
> > >> Sorry, I didn't realize that the reasons for the differences were
> > >> not common knowledge.
>
> > >> I've added a section to the web site that explains the
> > >> differences. It's entitled "Location Makes a Difference." I added
> > >> a bookmark for it near the top of the site, or you can go directly
> > >> there with "http://tinyurl.com/35uha5".
>
> > > Good grief, what a load of piffle.
>
> > Hmm, a British English word. I think you do understand the difference
> > between localities.
>
> It doesn't matter. Bicycling all night long in rural France is no
> different than bicycling all night long in rural Minnesota and Iowa,
> having had the opportunity to do both. Bicycling at night in Paris is
> marginally different than bicycling at night in Minneapolis- there were
> (at the time) no bikes lanes in Paris, plus the "I don't really know
> where the hell I'm going" aspect in Paris, too. And there's no Champs
> Elysee or Eiffel tower in Minneapolis. Traffic was much more intense in
> Paris. My Schmidt SON and Lumotec Plus proved perfectly adequate in all
> those situations.
>
> Your desperation to split hairs in defense of your flawed theses is
> piffle. Or "twaddle" if you prefer. "Merde," even. "A crock" would
> also suffice.
>
> > >> Steve "http://bicyclelighting.com" Earth's Independent Source for
> > >> Unbiased Bicycle Lighting Information
>
> > > "Misinformed Lighting Information" would be far more accurate.
>
> > Of course you didn't point out anything that wasn't accurate in that
> > list.
>
> Why bother? You never take anyone's advice if it disagrees with your
> preconceptions.-

Why should he? In everything from bicycle chains to bicycle lights to
bicycle racks and bicycle construction, Steve Scharf is Da Man, the
world's foremost expert, the A-1, absolute, hotshot, mostest best!

Date: 06 Aug 2007 19:23:58
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> ...
> I don't dislike or like them. I have some dynamo lights. They are fine
> for use in certain circumstances, certainly in bicycle-friendly places,
> like the Netherlands, they are often sufficient....

What is the outlook for fuel cell powered lights? I don't care for any
of the lights currently on the market, as they are either limited in
output or runtime. :(

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 06 Aug 2007 18:22:50
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>> ...
>> I don't dislike or like them. I have some dynamo lights. They are fine
>> for use in certain circumstances, certainly in bicycle-friendly
>> places, like the Netherlands, they are often sufficient....
>
> What is the outlook for fuel cell powered lights? I don't care for any
> of the lights currently on the market, as they are either limited in
> output or runtime. :(

No they're not, you just have to be willing to haul around enough
batteries to get the run-time and output you need.

Look at what RC airplanes use if you want to know what the currently
available lightest, highest output power source is. Right now, it's
Li-Po batteries. I haven't seen any bicycle lights with Li-Po yet,
though Li-Ion is more and more common.

Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such a
big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.

Date: 07 Aug 2007 17:57:17
From: Dorfus Dippintush
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

SMS wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I don't dislike or like them. I have some dynamo lights. They are
>>> fine for use in certain circumstances, certainly in bicycle-friendly
>>> places, like the Netherlands, they are often sufficient....
>>
>> What is the outlook for fuel cell powered lights? I don't care for any
>> of the lights currently on the market, as they are either limited in
>> output or runtime. :(
>
> No they're not, you just have to be willing to haul around enough
> batteries to get the run-time and output you need.
>
> Look at what RC airplanes use if you want to know what the currently
> available lightest, highest output power source is. Right now, it's
> Li-Po batteries. I haven't seen any bicycle lights with Li-Po yet,
> though Li-Ion is more and more common.
>
> Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
> commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
> dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
> commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such a
> big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.
>

I've been riding with Li-po batteries for at least two years now. At 63%
of the weight of NiMh it's the way to go. Not much difference in price
these days too.

Dorfus

Date: 06 Aug 2007 20:36:04
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
> Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman wrote:
>> SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I don't dislike or like them. I have some dynamo lights. They are
>>> fine for use in certain circumstances, certainly in bicycle-friendly
>>> places, like the Netherlands, they are often sufficient....
>>
>> What is the outlook for fuel cell powered lights? I don't care for any
>> of the lights currently on the market, as they are either limited in
>> output or runtime. :(
>
> No they're not, you just have to be willing to haul around enough
> batteries to get the run-time and output you need.

I really do not want a battery that doubles the weight of the bike.

Where is Mr. Shipstone when you need him?

> Look at what RC airplanes use if you want to know what the currently
> available lightest, highest output power source is. Right now, it's
> Li-Po batteries. I haven't seen any bicycle lights with Li-Po yet,
> though Li-Ion is more and more common.

ALL batteries have lousy power and energy densities compared to liquid
hydrocarbon fuels. :(

> Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
> commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
> dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
> commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such a
> big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.

Is the drag too high for most people's taste, or is there some other
reason only low-power dynamo-hubs are available?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 03:05:55
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46b7c068$0$29027$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>> Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
>> commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
>> dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
>> commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such a
>> big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.
>
> Is the drag too high for most people's taste, or is there some other
> reason only low-power dynamo-hubs are available?

At least part of it is the market. The big one is in Germany, where dynamos
are mandated for many types of bike. The rules there said "3W" for a long
time. I believe they now allow a 6W type too, but there's the catch-22 of
they're new, expensive and rare, so nobody buys them, so they remain
expensive and rare. So everybody sticks to 3W, which contrary to some
people's worries actually works fine.

I do wonder if there's also a good physical reason - it might be hard to
make a 6W hub work at the required low speeds at the low speeds a hub runs
at. Some variant on can't get the magnets, or the required magnets don't
fit. http://www.nabendynamo.de/12vinfo.htm mentions why they don't do it -
if you're not happy with German (like me), try translating with one of the
web translation engines.

You can run 6W at speed on a 3W dynamo-hub - since it's effectively a
constant current device, you can switch in an extra bulb for when you're
going faster than 12mph IIRC (below the critical speed the voltage drops and
the lamps get dim). The Solidlights LED lamp does this automagically.

The drag is peanuts for both - equivalent to a couple of feet climb per
mile, even for the worst of the hubs.

cheers,
clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 21:13:31
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in
> message news:46b7c068$0$29027$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>>> Personally, I'd be willing to have a more powerful dynamo than the
>>> commonly available 3W, and somewhat less available 6W models. A 12W
>>> dynamo would be sufficient to power satisfactory lights for most
>>> commuters, and on a commute the extra commute time might not be such
>>> a big deal. Even 9W might be sufficient.
>>
>> Is the drag too high for most people's taste, or is there some other
>> reason only low-power dynamo-hubs are available?
>
> At least part of it is the market. The big one is in Germany, where
> dynamos are mandated for many types of bike. The rules there said "3W"
> for a long time. I believe they now allow a 6W type too, but there's the
> catch-22 of they're new, expensive and rare, so nobody buys them, so
> they remain expensive and rare. So everybody sticks to 3W, which
> contrary to some people's worries actually works fine....

3W dynamo lights do not work on a lowracer recumbent that easily sees
90+ kph in any type of real hills. A 25W/40W high/low HID or 50W/80W
halogen with 36+ hours of run-time is what I want.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 03:55:57
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46b7c92f$0$16314$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>>> Is the drag too high for most people's taste, or is there some other
>>> reason only low-power dynamo-hubs are available?
>
> 3W dynamo lights do not work on a lowracer recumbent that easily sees 90+
> kph in any type of real hills. A 25W/40W high/low HID or 50W/80W halogen
> with 36+ hours of run-time is what I want.

Not going to happen with a dynamo - that's well into "too much drag"
territory. Simple physics. TBH that power/runtime off a battery of sensible
weight isn't going to happen either for a while - maybe 5kg off current
Li-Polymer technology if you're lucky? Guess you'll have to find a route
with less steep hills :-)
(or of course regulate your requirement a bit. I'd be happy with a 10W HID
at 70kph, and 6W halogen < 40kph. For 90kph+, the 80W halogen may be
appropriate. So what proportion of your time do you spend at these speeds?
(<10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster) ).

cheers,
clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 22:06:31
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in
> message news:46b7c92f$0$16314$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>>>> Is the drag too high for most people's taste, or is there some other
>>>> reason only low-power dynamo-hubs are available?
>>
>> 3W dynamo lights do not work on a lowracer recumbent that easily sees
>> 90+ kph in any type of real hills. A 25W/40W high/low HID or 50W/80W
>> halogen with 36+ hours of run-time is what I want.
>
> Not going to happen with a dynamo - that's well into "too much drag"
> territory. Simple physics. TBH that power/runtime off a battery of
> sensible weight isn't going to happen either for a while - maybe 5kg off
> current Li-Polymer technology if you're lucky? Guess you'll have to find
> a route with less steep hills :-)
> (or of course regulate your requirement a bit. I'd be happy with a 10W
> HID at 70kph, and 6W halogen < 40kph. For 90kph+, the 80W halogen may be
> appropriate. So what proportion of your time do you spend at these
> speeds? (<10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster) ).

No much, but I HATE wasting kinetic energy with the brakes that I could
use to go part-way up the next hill.

Based on riding a motorcycle, 80W halogen is merely adequate for 90-100
kph speeds.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 04:13:01
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46b7d59a$0$16370$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...

>> (or of course regulate your requirement a bit. I'd be happy with a 10W
>> HID at 70kph, and 6W halogen < 40kph. For 90kph+, the 80W halogen may be
>> appropriate. So what proportion of your time do you spend at these
>> speeds? (<10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster) ).
>
> No much, but I HATE wasting kinetic energy with the brakes that I could
> use to go part-way up the next hill.

That wasn't my question. What proportion of your time do you spend at those
speeds - <10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster. With that knowledge, we can
discover if a battery system is feasible based on what I consider adequate.
Doesn't help your stated requirement of "must look like a motorbike at all
times", but that's not really going to happen anyway.

cheers,
clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 22:23:16
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Clive George wrote:
> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in
> message news:46b7d59a$0$16370$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>
>>> (or of course regulate your requirement a bit. I'd be happy with a
>>> 10W HID at 70kph, and 6W halogen < 40kph. For 90kph+, the 80W halogen
>>> may be appropriate. So what proportion of your time do you spend at
>>> these speeds? (<10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster) ).
>>
>> No much, but I HATE wasting kinetic energy with the brakes that I
>> could use to go part-way up the next hill.
>
> That wasn't my question. What proportion of your time do you spend at
> those speeds - <10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster. With that knowledge, we
> can discover if a battery system is feasible based on what I consider
> adequate. Doesn't help your stated requirement of "must look like a
> motorbike at all times", but that's not really going to happen anyway.

Yes, a hub dynamo and a battery high power halogen would work, but the
wiring gets cumbersome since the light needs to be mounted on the boom
in front of one's feet, with the switch on the handlebars.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Date: 07 Aug 2007 04:38:13
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com > wrote in message
news:46b7d988$0$22028$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
> Clive George wrote:
>> "Tom "Johnny Sunset" Sherman" <sunsetss0003@invailid.com> wrote in
>> message news:46b7d59a$0$16370$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...
>>
>>>> (or of course regulate your requirement a bit. I'd be happy with a 10W
>>>> HID at 70kph, and 6W halogen < 40kph. For 90kph+, the 80W halogen may
>>>> be appropriate. So what proportion of your time do you spend at these
>>>> speeds? (<10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster) ).
>>>
>>> No much, but I HATE wasting kinetic energy with the brakes that I could
>>> use to go part-way up the next hill.
>>
>> That wasn't my question. What proportion of your time do you spend at
>> those speeds - <10kph, <40kph, <70kph, faster. With that knowledge, we
>> can discover if a battery system is feasible based on what I consider
>> adequate. Doesn't help your stated requirement of "must look like a
>> motorbike at all times", but that's not really going to happen anyway.
>
> Yes, a hub dynamo and a battery high power halogen would work, but the
> wiring gets cumbersome since the light needs to be mounted on the boom in
> front of one's feet, with the switch on the handlebars.

Wahey, sorted! But we still need to work out how big a battery is required,
which means we still need the answer to my question.
Re the wiring - a relay based system would seem most appropriate for the big
light - I agree that taking the high current wiring to the handlebars is a
big silly. They don't do it on cars either.

Could be worth doing relays for the 'mo based bits too, since you may well
want two switches there too. Or use a solidlight for everything < 40kph,
then the switching for that is irrelevant. Switch on when it gets dark - you
can do that while stopped, so no need for a handlebar switch.

cheers,
clive

Date: 06 Aug 2007 18:11:26
From: Clive George
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com > wrote in message
news:46b75372$0$27189$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...

> However I do agree with all the experts regarding the relative safety of
> the different types of lights. For commuting at relatively high speeds,
> you want to light the road both further ahead, and further to the sides
> than is possible with dynamo powered lights, other than perhaps a 6W
> dynamo system.
>
> Find someone with some expertise that disagrees with all the experts--I'm
> open to what they have to say if it's more than 'I use dynamo lights and
> I'm alive, so they must be okay,' or 'I asked someone to look at me riding
> and tell me if they could see me,' or 'look at the Netherlands.'

I think I'm about as expert as those sources you post. As are a number of
posters to this NG who have repeatedly pointed out that their dynamo lights
are in fact perfectly good. I've definitely got the required experience -
the only difference between me and the people you quote is that I haven't
bothered writing up my findings. I know your definition of expert is
"Somebody who agrees with SMS", but I'd hope that others would be able to
see the flaw there.

> North Carolina Bicycle Coalition
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/lights/lights.htm
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> A three watt lamp can be focused into a beam suitable for high speed
> cycling on the darkest roads

> Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_lighting (prior to being
> repeatedly vandalized)

Would that be your writing being corrected by others? Having read the
current article, it seems to be fairly sane.

clive

Date: 04 Aug 2007 10:56:06
From: Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 03 Aug 2007 07:33:37
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 03 Aug 2007 04:31:24
From: Donga
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

On Aug 3, 10:26 am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.

These babies are getting a huge rap in Australia
http://www.ayup.com.au/
I've just ordered a set.
They are about to switch from Luxeon to Cree LEDs.

donga

Date: 02 Aug 2007 20:43:28
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

Date: 03 Aug 2007 22:05:48
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Headlight Recommendations

David L. Johnson wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> The days are getting shorter, which reminds me that I need to replace
>> my headlight. Are there any new lights on the market that are worth
>> looking at? I need something bright, but I don't need a super long
>> burn time. A few hours is good enough. -- Jay Beattie.
>>
> Look at diNotte LED lights. They are so small that you can take it with
> you if there is any chance of being out at night. It's brighter than a
> 10W halogen light, plenty bright enough to see as well as be seen. It
> lasts about an hour and a half on bright, and spare batteries are small
> enough to carry if you need 'em.

Also look at the Light & Motion Vega at:
"http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=&sku=13970&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Show%20All%20Products"

Note that the LED lights are generally not as good as halogen lights in
terms of brightness because the beam cannot be focused as well, but the
battery life is longer. "A few hours" is actually quite a long time.