| |
Main
Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:22:50
From: landotter
Subject: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Well, the Kona Dew Beer Fetchmaster had been ultra reliable since I
bought it, as I tuned the wheels and repacked the front hub first
thing with actual grease. The rear hub I just adjusted the cones a
smidge without looking inside. So I'd been hearing that gentle "tic"
of bearings falling on each other, which means ya need grease, so
cracked the rear hub and found that there was a bearing missing and
zero grease on the drive side! Fortunately there was only one tiny pit
on the cone. Scott at the LBS seemed quite proud to provide me with a
bearing "on the house! What a wise guy.
I mean, can one really expect a full compliment of ball bearings for
$400? In other news, shitty single wall Rigida rims stay perfectly
true despite urban abuse--if they actually have tensioned spokes.
$400 bikes are apparently as good as the wrench that assembles them
from the box--gee, who'd a thunk it?
|
|
| |
Date: 11 Nov 2007 18:20:17
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 10, 4:11 pm, Steve Gravrock <use...@sdg.users.panix.com > wrote:
> On 2007-11-09, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 4, 10:36 pm, Steve Gravrock <use...@sdg.users.panix.com> wrote:
> >> I just recently took my snow
> >> bike out for the first time after "downgrading" it from worn-out
> >> Gripshifts to old LX thumbies. I'm pretty sure it shifts better than new
> >> all around. I'm not thrilled with the ergonomics, but it shifts at least
> >> as well as any other bike I've had. The bike cost $300 in 1997 and still
> >> has most of the original drivetrain.
>
> > 7spd thumbies? Sorry, I'm really bad with mtb kit since I quit mtb'ing
> > in 89. :-P I thought everything went Rapidfire by the early 90s.
>
> Sure. 7 speed Deore and XT thumbies are still plentiful. I was even able
> to walk into the LBS and buy a pair on the spot. If your LBS is newer or
> not owned by a pack rat, you might have to go to E-bay.
>
> Actually, as recently as last year you could buy 7 speed Tourney
> thumbies at Nashbar. I suspect that you can still get them, as well as
> compatible knock-offs, at Wal-Mart. They come with a free bonus bicycle
> attached.
>
> The big problem with thumb shifters these days is that modern 2-finger
> brake levers are designed to be mounted inboard of the shifters, not
> outboard. 2 finger levers paired with thumbies take up more space than
> either 4 finger levers with thumbies or a modern shifter/brake lever
> combo. When I had them mounted on a straight bar, there was no room
> for lights. On the handlebar I have now, they take up enough room to
> rule out using the forward corner hand position:
> <http://www.panix.com/~sdg/usenet/mary+thumb.jpg>
Nice! That's pretty much my idea of a perfect mtb type bar setup. I'm
gonna get around to ordering the $25 Mary clones from Origin-8 one of
these days--as my LBS is still new and doesn't know how to order Wald
stuff for me--a ~10 buck Wald 8095 puts your hands in the same
position, but doesn't look as right on a modern bike.
>
> But the result is better shifting than I ever had with the cheap Grip
> Shifts that came on the bike. Even with the Acera wet noodle in the
> shape of a front derailer, it shifts at least as well as anything else
> I've tried.
I got le cheap Tourney on the front, Deore in the back. All the
Shimano stuff shifts great, even low end-seems the more palpable
difference is swapping to Sram cassettes.
|
| | |
Date: 14 Nov 2007 07:07:41
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On 2007-11-12, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 10, 4:11 pm, Steve Gravrock <use...@sdg.users.panix.com> wrote:
>> <http://www.panix.com/~sdg/usenet/mary+thumb.jpg>
>
> Nice! That's pretty much my idea of a perfect mtb type bar setup. I'm
> gonna get around to ordering the $25 Mary clones from Origin-8 one of
> these days--as my LBS is still new and doesn't know how to order Wald
> stuff for me--a ~10 buck Wald 8095 puts your hands in the same
> position, but doesn't look as right on a modern bike.
From the few pictures I can see online, it looks like the Wald 8095 puts
your hands a little higher. That may or may not be a good thing for your
purposes. The Mary bar is technically a riser bar but with it set
somewhat nose-up the way I like it, my hands end up just very slightly
above where they'd be with a straight bar on the same stem.
|
| |
Date: 10 Nov 2007 23:52:16
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=EUR&screen=carsusapetersen
|
| |
Date: 08 Nov 2007 17:28:55
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 4, 10:36 pm, Steve Gravrock <use...@sdg.users.panix.com > wrote:
> On 2007-11-03, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My $400 version of this lower end of the market rolls, brakes, and
> > shifts as well as any bike I've owned--it just needed help getting
> > there. I bought it just as much out of curiosity as practicality--I'd
> > not purchased a new derailleured bike in over ten years. The only
> > thing I really think is lacking is the lack of trim for the front mech
> > on the basic Rapid Fire shifters--but it's not a glaring fault. The
> > orginal 6spd SIS thumbies were my favorite shifter ever--hence the
> > market for Paul's Thumbies.
>
> Having as much overshift as you like is nice too, although the Rapid Fire
> shifters are pretty good in that regard.
They sure are. This drivetrain won't index from the granny to the
middle cog without a major overshift, likely the low end FSA cranks--
but it's no biggie with Rapidfire kit. Gripshift would have had me
fuming.
> I just recently took my snow
> bike out for the first time after "downgrading" it from worn-out
> Gripshifts to old LX thumbies. I'm pretty sure it shifts better than new
> all around. I'm not thrilled with the ergonomics, but it shifts at least
> as well as any other bike I've had. The bike cost $300 in 1997 and still
> has most of the original drivetrain.
7spd thumbies? Sorry, I'm really bad with mtb kit since I quit mtb'ing
in 89. :-P I thought everything went Rapidfire by the early 90s.
|
| | |
Date: 10 Nov 2007 22:11:02
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On 2007-11-09, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 4, 10:36 pm, Steve Gravrock <use...@sdg.users.panix.com> wrote:
>> I just recently took my snow
>> bike out for the first time after "downgrading" it from worn-out
>> Gripshifts to old LX thumbies. I'm pretty sure it shifts better than new
>> all around. I'm not thrilled with the ergonomics, but it shifts at least
>> as well as any other bike I've had. The bike cost $300 in 1997 and still
>> has most of the original drivetrain.
>
> 7spd thumbies? Sorry, I'm really bad with mtb kit since I quit mtb'ing
> in 89. :-P I thought everything went Rapidfire by the early 90s.
Sure. 7 speed Deore and XT thumbies are still plentiful. I was even able
to walk into the LBS and buy a pair on the spot. If your LBS is newer or
not owned by a pack rat, you might have to go to E-bay.
Actually, as recently as last year you could buy 7 speed Tourney
thumbies at Nashbar. I suspect that you can still get them, as well as
compatible knock-offs, at Wal-Mart. They come with a free bonus bicycle
attached.
The big problem with thumb shifters these days is that modern 2-finger
brake levers are designed to be mounted inboard of the shifters, not
outboard. 2 finger levers paired with thumbies take up more space than
either 4 finger levers with thumbies or a modern shifter/brake lever
combo. When I had them mounted on a straight bar, there was no room
for lights. On the handlebar I have now, they take up enough room to
rule out using the forward corner hand position:
<http://www.panix.com/~sdg/usenet/mary+thumb.jpg >
But the result is better shifting than I ever had with the cheap Grip
Shifts that came on the bike. Even with the Acera wet noodle in the
shape of a front derailer, it shifts at least as well as anything else
I've tried.
|
| |
Date: 08 Nov 2007 23:32:10
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
-
Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
>> times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
>> size.
wow not on my planet.
this car thing in RBT is way out of whack: deserves rethink.
Isettas, Topolino's, Anglia, ancient 997cc Mini variants, BMW
refrigertar cars, Subaru, first Honda, first Toyo, THE MESSERSCHMITT,
all deserving of restoration and care.
a new reader would believe RBT is populated by ugly american consumers
of overweight gas guzzling planet ending ...
DISGRACE!
|
| |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 07:00:50
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
WE'RE ASSHOLE DEEP IN WELDERS!
that's a good line!
"Air enters the highly breathable cover through holes in the seat,
covering the rider with fresh dogshit"
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 18:56:02
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
- avast the jib -
well, choose the LBS carefully caws there's o0omgoloids in there
waiting to butcher your machine.
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 06:57:08
From:
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 7:03 pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com > wrote:
> "Jasper Janssen" <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote in message
>
> news:5bbni3h79acuoaae1kbc1o7mm9jqgsmbl8@4ax.com...
>
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
> > <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >>From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side
> >>worth
> >>of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
> >>than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
> >>different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with
> >>a
> >>new set.
>
> > The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> > difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
> > worrying about.
>
> Jasper,
> Darned if I know how much is worth worrying about - but from:http://www.dejaydistribution.co.uk/ball_grades.html
> if you buy Grade 25 (the best thatwww.loosescrews.comsells), the basic
> diameter tolerance is twice the allowable lot diameter variation (0.0001"
> vs. 0.000048"). If you mix balls from different lots, you might as well buy
> balls from a single lot of a lower grade.
> Kerry
It's not worth worrying about. Even with bad quality control
(tolerances +/- 2 sigma) the chances of two balls from different lots
actually being the full 0.000096" apart is one in 2000. Drop them
between cups pressed into machined hub shells and cheap cones threaded
onto flexy axles, and it just isn't worth worrying about.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 23:11:43
From: still me
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 06:57:08 -0800, unforgiven99@juno.com wrote:
>It's not worth worrying about. Even with bad quality control
>(tolerances +/- 2 sigma) the chances of two balls from different lots
>actually being the full 0.000096" apart is one in 2000. Drop them
>between cups pressed into machined hub shells and cheap cones threaded
>onto flexy axles, and it just isn't worth worrying about.
Not to mention, a little clearance for the grease. :-)
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 13:07:04
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
oh good. ameliorate the problem. good thinking.
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 04:46:08
From:
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 10:37 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> oh good. two degreed engineers argueing for useing different sized
> ball bearings on the same race.
> and one engineer stands on "preload" where at BB and wheel hub, shaft
> and race are forced to mate against ball bearings, under pressure for
> continuous pressure 360 degrees before AND after breakin.
> do this with different size bearing and zappppp 1000 miles,no hub no
> cone.
>
> and for 3-4 bucks of bearings. Arch would call this 'throwing the baby
> out with the bath water.'
>
> listen. when you start handwringing over $3 bearings and 45 minutes
> labor its time to do it over.
> if your handwringing over re diggggging the Panama Canal or re-wiring
> the ISS then maybe extensive evaluation is required.
>
> but not for $3 worth of bearings.
Add a third. Matched bearings sound critical, but they're only half
of the equation. I find it hard to believe that the cups and cones in
a low end hub are parallel to less than the batch to batch tolerance
of grade 25 balls. If I have to buy balls, I'll get a whole bag just
because it's easier. If a hub like that is one short, I'm going to
throw in whatever is rolling around in the tool box and not lose any
sleep over it.
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 11:22:37
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 4, 9:34 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
> > On Nov 4, 12:30 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> >> datakoll wrote:
>
> >>> o vey - are you saying civilization as we know does not exist?
> >> As "we" know it? I would say that is about right if we assume people
> >> know what we do and I'm not even sure what "we know" at all. I'm sure
> >> that there are some readers here that are challenged if they have to
> >> replace a brake pad.
>
> > the civilization is founded on technical competence, meritocracy.
> > theorizing bicycling is somehow different than quantum electronics or
> > short order cooking, that the difference is a smaller competent group,
> > is both illogical and myopic.
>
> Then we are doomed because I have seen very few young short order cooks.
> That job has been dumbed down or eliminated. The restaurants hire 3
> people to do what one good cook used to be able to do.
>
> Just think of the store clerks that don't know how to make change by
> counting up and need the register to tell them how much change to give
> back. The schools told them that they had to subtract to get a good
> result, something that is hard to do in one's head when the purchase is
> $13.69 and the customer hands the clerk a 20.
>
> We are doomed.
consumption and technical competence? technical competence as earth
stewards? mix and match is MYOPIC AND ILLOGICAL.
confused thinking is not allowed in RBT. we're all stewarding, rort
rort rort.
a bicycle ride thru the elysian fields is way better than gouging on a
Polaris.
please forgive the ICE posters: they are rolling in mechanicals not
consuming.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 18:48:40
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> ...
> please forgive the ICE posters: they are rolling in mechanicals not
> consuming.
>
I like the products ICE [1] makes, particularly the Micro [2].
[1] <http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/ >.
[2] <http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/custom_trikes/micro.htm >.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Tradition is the worst rational for action.
|
| |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 4, 11:40 am, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:36:34 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> Japanese. I have two friends with MGBs, and the experience of riding
> >> in one is like being in a go cart. It is the only thing on the road
> >> lower than a recumbent. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> >You've clearly never ridden in a Lotus Europa.
>
> That's a positively sophisticated car compared to all time adult
> go-kart winner - the Porsche 914.
Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
Europa?
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 23:10:59
From: still me
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
>Europa?
I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
|
| |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 02:11:49
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 4, 12:30 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
>
> > o vey - are you saying civilization as we know does not exist?
>
> As "we" know it? I would say that is about right if we assume people
> know what we do and I'm not even sure what "we know" at all. I'm sure
> that there are some readers here that are challenged if they have to
> replace a brake pad.
the civilization is founded on technical competence, meritocracy.
theorizing bicycling is somehow different than quantum electronics or
short order cooking, that the difference is a smaller competent group,
is both illogical and myopic.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 21:34:28
From: vey
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll wrote:
> On Nov 4, 12:30 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>> datakoll wrote:
>>
>>> o vey - are you saying civilization as we know does not exist?
>> As "we" know it? I would say that is about right if we assume people
>> know what we do and I'm not even sure what "we know" at all. I'm sure
>> that there are some readers here that are challenged if they have to
>> replace a brake pad.
>
> the civilization is founded on technical competence, meritocracy.
> theorizing bicycling is somehow different than quantum electronics or
> short order cooking, that the difference is a smaller competent group,
> is both illogical and myopic.
>
Then we are doomed because I have seen very few young short order cooks.
That job has been dumbed down or eliminated. The restaurants hire 3
people to do what one good cook used to be able to do.
Just think of the store clerks that don't know how to make change by
counting up and need the register to tell them how much change to give
back. The schools told them that they had to subtract to get a good
result, something that is hard to do in one's head when the purchase is
$13.69 and the customer hands the clerk a 20.
We are doomed.
|
| |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 09:43:23
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 4, 10:07 am, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 7:39 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >>> buy on the internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
> >> downtube.
>
> >>> Another reason to bypass the LBS!
>
> > Nice job of snipping to change/eliminate the context, asshole.
>
> >> At Walmart.com, you can buy all sorts on name brands on the downtube.
> >> Roadmaster, Schwinn, Mongoose and more! All at less than half the price
> >> of a $400 bicycle.
>
> >> Yet another reason to bypass the LBS! Famous names and low prices. What
> >> more can you ask for?
>
> > I could ask for you to "grow a brain", but why ask the impossible?
>
> My brain is
SNIP!
Go back and look at the post to which I was replying prior to your
asinine snip fest. Read the context. Then, restore it in your next
reply and I'll have the motivation to reply to you. Short of that, you
can just fuck off.
|
| |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 16:33:41
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
o vey - are you saying civilization as we know does not exist?
|
| | |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 12:30:49
From: vey
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll wrote:
>
> o vey - are you saying civilization as we know does not exist?
>
As "we" know it? I would say that is about right if we assume people
know what we do and I'm not even sure what "we know" at all. I'm sure
that there are some readers here that are challenged if they have to
replace a brake pad.
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 10:04:21
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 9:55 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone writes:
> >>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
> >>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
> >>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
> >>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
> >>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
> >> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
> >> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
> >> hardly worth worrying about.
> > I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> > smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
> bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
> damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
> ball spalling.
>
> > There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> > manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> > expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do.
Really? While I don't mind tossing myself up hills on my 22# fixie
around here, a single speed city bike is out of the question if you're
hauling full panniers and want to arrive looking like ya ain't lost
your composure. This isn't Chicago, where I could commute on a DL1,
ten miles each way, and barely raise my heart rate.
Fact is, $3-400 buys you a bike with low end Shimano, that if dialed
in, will provide years of reliable utility service. That's the
economics of having stuff built in China these days.
My $400 version of this lower end of the market rolls, brakes, and
shifts as well as any bike I've owned--it just needed help getting
there. I bought it just as much out of curiosity as practicality--I'd
not purchased a new derailleured bike in over ten years. The only
thing I really think is lacking is the lack of trim for the front mech
on the basic Rapid Fire shifters--but it's not a glaring fault. The
orginal 6spd SIS thumbies were my favorite shifter ever--hence the
market for Paul's Thumbies.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 04:36:52
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On 2007-11-03, landotter <landotter@gmail.com > wrote:
> My $400 version of this lower end of the market rolls, brakes, and
> shifts as well as any bike I've owned--it just needed help getting
> there. I bought it just as much out of curiosity as practicality--I'd
> not purchased a new derailleured bike in over ten years. The only
> thing I really think is lacking is the lack of trim for the front mech
> on the basic Rapid Fire shifters--but it's not a glaring fault. The
> orginal 6spd SIS thumbies were my favorite shifter ever--hence the
> market for Paul's Thumbies.
Having as much overshift as you like is nice too, although the Rapid Fire
shifters are pretty good in that regard. I just recently took my snow
bike out for the first time after "downgrading" it from worn-out
Gripshifts to old LX thumbies. I'm pretty sure it shifts better than new
all around. I'm not thrilled with the ergonomics, but it shifts at least
as well as any other bike I've had. The bike cost $300 in 1997 and still
has most of the original drivetrain.
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 09:36:34
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 3, 10:33 am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com > wrote:
> On Nov 2, 8:44 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > > someone writes:
>
> > >>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
> > >>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
> > >>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
> > >>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
> > >>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
> > >>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
> > >>> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
> > >>> hardly worth worrying about.
>
> > >> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> > >> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> > > Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
> > > bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
> > > damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
> > > ball spalling.
>
> > >> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> > >> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> > >> expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> > > I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> > > If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
> > > commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
> > > recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
> > > hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
> > > maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
> > > unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
>
> > > The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
>
> > OK now I'm excited. How about an MGA twin cam?
>
> It's funny about what we think of as a 1950's cars. I think of giant
> tanks -- Dodge, Chrysler, Chevy, Cady. Only odd ball college
> professors and batchelor bon vivants owned MGs -- or any foreign car
> -- as I recall. I saw more MGs in the late '60s and 'early 70s when
> they gained popularity and before that market was captured by the
> Japanese. I have two friends with MGBs, and the experience of riding
> in one is like being in a go cart. It is the only thing on the road
> lower than a recumbent. -- Jay Beattie.
You've clearly never ridden in a Lotus Europa.
|
| | |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 17:40:02
From: still me
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:36:34 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>> Japanese. I have two friends with MGBs, and the experience of riding
>> in one is like being in a go cart. It is the only thing on the road
>> lower than a recumbent. -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
>You've clearly never ridden in a Lotus Europa.
That's a positively sophisticated car compared to all time adult
go-kart winner - the Porsche 914.
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 09:33:04
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 8:44 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > someone writes:
>
> >>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
> >>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
> >>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
> >>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
> >>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
> >>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
> >>> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
> >>> hardly worth worrying about.
>
> >> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> >> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> > Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
> > bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
> > damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
> > ball spalling.
>
> >> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> >> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> >> expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> > I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> > If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
> > commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
> > recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
> > hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
> > maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
> > unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
>
> > The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
>
> OK now I'm excited. How about an MGA twin cam?
It's funny about what we think of as a 1950's cars. I think of giant
tanks -- Dodge, Chrysler, Chevy, Cady. Only odd ball college
professors and batchelor bon vivants owned MGs -- or any foreign car
-- as I recall. I saw more MGs in the late '60s and 'early 70s when
they gained popularity and before that market was captured by the
Japanese. I have two friends with MGBs, and the experience of riding
in one is like being in a go cart. It is the only thing on the road
lower than a recumbent. -- Jay Beattie.
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:32:08
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 3, 9:22 am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com >
wrote:
> "jim beam" wrote:
> > jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >> Jasper Janssen writes:
>
> >>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
> >>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
> >>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
> >>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
> >>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
> >>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> >>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly
> >>> worth worrying about.
>
> >> Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
> >> times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
> >> size. Even these are not necessarily from the same machine (set) from
> >> a bearing manufacturer. I don't believe you can detect a ball size
> >> differenced using a digital micrometer or caliper with 1/10,000 inch
> >> resolution. In fact, bearing balls are a good standard against which
> >> to test you measurement instrument.
>
> >> This is another bugaboo people want to toss into the ring as though it
> >> were an important consideration. In that light, remember that
> >> rotation mass on your bicycle counts twice... and many other fables.
>
> > fables? some of my personal favorites include:
>
> > * increasing spoke tension = increasing strength!
> > * bike bearings are elasto-hydrodynamically separated!
> > * metal fatigue can be eliminated in a material that doesn't strain age!
> > * bearings don't brinell!
> > * anodizing causes rim cracking!
> > * alumnus = competence!
>
> Add
> * Anonymous sock puppet = credibility!
>
And, finally:
*Annoying, nerdy, pencil-necked geek = *plonk*!
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 13:37:01
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
.
urk
|
| | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:46:52
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> .
>
> urk
>
Indeed.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 03:40:55
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Landotter wrote:
>
> > There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> > manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> > expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
Jobst the Great and Mighty spake:
> I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
> commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
> recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
> hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
> maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
> unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
>
> The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
>
Another chapter in "The World According to Brandt"!
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 03:38:40
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 10:44 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > someone writes:
>
> >>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
> >>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
> >>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
> >>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
> >>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
> >>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
> >>> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
> >>> hardly worth worrying about.
>
> >> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> >> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> > Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
> > bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
> > damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
> > ball spalling.
>
> >> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> >> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> >> expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> > I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> > If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
> > commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
> > recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
> > hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
> > maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
> > unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
>
> > The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
>
> OK now I'm excited. How about an MGA twin cam?
> --
They went pretty fast, but they didn't last......
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 03:37:14
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
oh good. two degreed engineers argueing for useing different sized
ball bearings on the same race.
and one engineer stands on "preload" where at BB and wheel hub, shaft
and race are forced to mate against ball bearings, under pressure for
continuous pressure 360 degrees before AND after breakin.
do this with different size bearing and zappppp 1000 miles,no hub no
cone.
and for 3-4 bucks of bearings. Arch would call this 'throwing the baby
out with the bath water.'
listen. when you start handwringing over $3 bearings and 45 minutes
labor its time to do it over.
if your handwringing over re diggggging the Panama Canal or re-wiring
the ISS then maybe extensive evaluation is required.
but not for $3 worth of bearings.
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 19:00:39
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 1, 6:34 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> - ignore quoted whining-
>
> bottom end cycles' quallity is phenomenal. Suplier's abilities for
> competition at this level unreal.
> buy now
>
> http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=600065&subcategory=600010...
I agree. If you are into racing bikes, you can get a perfectly nice
race ready bike for about $550 with 105 components and a nice aluminum
frame and carbon fork, nice wheels etc. If you know basic bike
mechanics, you are on your way. If you don't know mechanics you need
to go through the bike shop or a friend.
Bikes in the $500 range offer great value.
Andres
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 18:50:25
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 7:39 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >buy on the internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
> downtube.
>
> > Another reason to bypass the LBS!
Nice job of snipping to change/eliminate the context, asshole.
>
> At Walmart.com, you can buy all sorts on name brands on the downtube.
> Roadmaster, Schwinn, Mongoose and more! All at less than half the price
> of a $400 bicycle.
>
> Yet another reason to bypass the LBS! Famous names and low prices. What
> more can you ask for?
I could ask for you to "grow a brain", but why ask the impossible?
|
| | |
Date: 04 Nov 2007 11:07:59
From: vey
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 2, 7:39 pm, vey <jun...@ericvey.com> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> buy on the internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
>> downtube.
>>
>>> Another reason to bypass the LBS!
>
> Nice job of snipping to change/eliminate the context, asshole.
>
>> At Walmart.com, you can buy all sorts on name brands on the downtube.
>> Roadmaster, Schwinn, Mongoose and more! All at less than half the price
>> of a $400 bicycle.
>>
>> Yet another reason to bypass the LBS! Famous names and low prices. What
>> more can you ask for?
>
> I could ask for you to "grow a brain", but why ask the impossible?
>
My brain is fine, but your's seems to be short circuiting. Specifically,
you make assumptions that "everyone" knows how to make minor adjustments
to bicycles. The older I get, the fewer people I know that have basic
mechanical skills. It seems that the younger people know less and less
about minor skills. They love to watch work being done (see the
popularity of HGTV and the food network), but do so vicariously. Those
people need an LBS.
Second, you assume that people don't have to actually see something to
buy it and that a photo will do. That has not been my experience. My
experience is that unless they have seen and become familiar with
something before they buy it, looking at photos will not convince them
to buy it. Once they have become familiar with an item (any item) and
know what to look for, then buying over the internet makes sense to
them. And where would they go to see better than $75 bikes?
Last, you assume that people know the difference between a Wal-Mart bike
and an LBS or other internet store's bike. The short answer is that they
don't. The wealthier people go to an LBS because they want a "name"
bicycle and a nearby mechanic. The folks that don't have as much money,
shop at Wal-Mart and look at you oddly if you suggest that they spend 3
to 5 times as much.
The market for a knowledgeable, handy with tools, not so wealthy person
who wants to save some money and knows what he is buying before it
arrives, is rather small.
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 18:17:27
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 5:22 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 2, 6:06 pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
>
> > <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > >From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
> > >of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
> > >than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
> > >different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
> > >new set.
>
> > The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> > difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
> > worrying about.
>
> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike.
And for quite a bit less than $400 if you bypass the LBS, buy on the
internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
downtube.
> Just don't expect
> a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
Anther reason to bypass the LBS!
|
| | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 05:44:12
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 2, 5:22 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 2, 6:06 pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
>>> <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>> >From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
>>>> of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
>>>> than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
>>>> different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
>>>> new set.
>>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
>>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
>>> worrying about.
>> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
>> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>>
>> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
>> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike.
>
> And for quite a bit less than $400 if you bypass the LBS, buy on the
> internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
> downtube.
>
>> Just don't expect
>> a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> Anther reason to bypass the LBS!
>
Hey, and buy your own tools and learn to service the bicycle yourself.
Then you can bypass the bicycle repair shop!!!
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 21:39:15
From: vey
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>buy on the internet and are willing to have a less than "big name" on your
downtube.
>
> Anther reason to bypass the LBS!
At Walmart.com, you can buy all sorts on name brands on the downtube.
Roadmaster, Schwinn, Mongoose and more! All at less than half the price
of a $400 bicycle.
Yet another reason to bypass the LBS! Famous names and low prices. What
more can you ask for?
|
| |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 01:04:59
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
NO.
an ongoing arguement splitting hairs on why or why not DIFFERENT size
bearings are or are NOT acceptable in the same race
is expletive deleted stupid.
get 11/22 bearings from the same sack, inspect sizes to be sure the
bearings are of the same size.
and replace all the bearings with good grease like Castrol marine for
a buck at Walmort.
when taking apart again, checking play regularly because its expletive
deleted, THROW THE OLD BEARINGS AWAY and start over.
for 2-3 bucks the arguement is incroyable.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 22:36:27
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll wrote:
> NO.
> an ongoing arguement splitting hairs on why or why not DIFFERENT size
> bearings are or are NOT acceptable in the same race
> is expletive deleted stupid.
> get 11/22 bearings from the same sack, inspect sizes to be sure the
> bearings are of the same size.
> and replace all the bearings with good grease like Castrol marine for
> a buck at Walmort.
> when taking apart again, checking play regularly because its expletive
> deleted, THROW THE OLD BEARINGS AWAY and start over.
> for 2-3 bucks the arguement is incroyable.
Oui!
Since the best practical grade (25) is generally $2 a set or less
there's no reasonable argument against it! If your time has any value
whatsoever, however small, just replace the full complement of bearings
with a matched set of Grade 25 chrome steel balls. Don't mix bearings.
While this does generate a good deal of discussion from time to time,
one would do well to spend more time on a thorough cleaning before
rebuild than on postulated bearing shortcuts. From what I see, dirt
knocked back into a bearing rebuild by home mechanics is a common
problem and easy to avoid.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 17:09:47
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 7:03 pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com > wrote:
> "Jasper Janssen" <jas...@jjanssen.org> wrote in message
>
> news:5bbni3h79acuoaae1kbc1o7mm9jqgsmbl8@4ax.com...
>
> > On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
> > <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
>
> >>From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side
> >>worth
> >>of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
> >>than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
> >>different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with
> >>a
> >>new set.
>
> > The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> > difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
> > worrying about.
>
> Jasper,
> Darned if I know how much is worth worrying about - but from:http://www.dejaydistribution.co.uk/ball_grades.html
> if you buy Grade 25 (the best thatwww.loosescrews.comsells), the basic
> diameter tolerance is twice the allowable lot diameter variation (0.0001"
> vs. 0.000048"). If you mix balls from different lots, you might as well buy
> balls from a single lot of a lower grade.
> Kerry
I seriously doubt this thing had 25 grade in there already. I'll just
put some nice round ones in there for spring.
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 23:57:08
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
RETURN OF DRACKMAN
http://www.rei.com/novara?cm_ven=email&cm_cat=gm&cm_pla=na&cm_ite=11_02_gm
http://www.rei.com/product/760062
http://www.rei.com/product/730480
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 16:22:11
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 6:06 pm, Jasper Janssen <jas...@jjanssen.org > wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
>
> <kamon...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
> >of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
> >than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
> >different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
> >new set.
>
> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
> worrying about.
I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't expect
a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 10:56:15
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 7, 12:53 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Nov 7, 12:39 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:16:56 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >> I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > >> pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> > >I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> > >than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> > >real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
>
> > I'll defer to you on that point since I never drove the Lotus. I might
> > still check for some specs for curiosity.
>
> > BTW - I think you mean 914/914-6. The 916 was not a production car.
> > The 914-6 was.
>
> The 916 was a European market car. IIRC, it was built at the Porsche
> factory. The European version of the 914 was sols as a "VW-Porsche
> 914" ans built in a VW facility. The 914-6 was foe the US market, a
> 914 with a 6cyl Porsche engine and transaxle.
Geez! Three typos in one short post! :((
|
| | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 10:53:05
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 7, 12:39 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:16:56 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >> I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> >> pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> >I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> >than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> >real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
>
> I'll defer to you on that point since I never drove the Lotus. I might
> still check for some specs for curiosity.
>
> BTW - I think you mean 914/914-6. The 916 was not a production car.
> The 914-6 was.
The 916 was a European market car. IIRC, it was built at the Porsche
factory. The European version of the 914 was sols as a "VW-Porsche
914" ans built in a VW facility. The 914-6 was foe the US market, a
914 with a 6cyl Porsche engine and transaxle.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 19:00:26
From: still me
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:53:05 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>The 916 was a European market car. IIRC, it was built at the Porsche
>factory. The European version of the 914 was sols as a "VW-Porsche
>914" ans built in a VW facility. The 914-6 was foe the US market, a
>914 with a 6cyl Porsche engine and transaxle.
The 916 never made it out of prototype according to what I've read.
|
| | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 02:55:22
From:
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
someone writes:
>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
>> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
>> hardly worth worrying about.
> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
ball spalling.
> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
> expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 22:44:32
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone writes:
>
>>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
>>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than
>>> the difference between individual balls from a batch, but still
>>> hardly worth worrying about.
>
>> I turns very smooth now. It's a crap Formula, but feels about as
>> smooth as a Deore hub--plenty nice for a utility bike.
>
> Running smoothly is dependent primarily on the condition of the races,
> bearing balls seldom having blemishes without the races becoming
> damaged first. It is rolling over pitted races that most often cases
> ball spalling.
>
>> There really are bargains to be found at the $400 end of the big
>> manufacturers' range if you want a new utility bike. Just don't
>> expect a bike shop to spend a whole lot of time dialing them in.
>
> I have a hard time visualizing the worth of bicycles in this category.
> If its a bicycle to go shopping, a one speed will do, if its a
> commuter for flat land a three speed hub will do, if it is for average
> recreational bicycling to go on more than 20 mile loops including
> hills, a clunk won't do. On the other hand if the bicycle is a poorly
> maintained good quality bicycle, it may be worth more than that price
> unless enough of its components are beyond repair.
>
> The whole concept sounds like buying a 1950's car.
OK now I'm excited. How about an MGA twin cam?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 11:24:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 7, 1:00 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:53:05 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >The 916 was a European market car. IIRC, it was built at the Porsche
> >factory. The European version of the 914 was sols as a "VW-Porsche
> >914" ans built in a VW facility. The 914-6 was foe the US market, a
> >914 with a 6cyl Porsche engine and transaxle.
>
> The 916 never made it out of prototype according to what I've read.
Here'a a link to the relevant VINs (1972, in red):
http://p914.com/p914_numbers.htm
Note that a prototype is listed, and the specs do differ a bit from
the admittedly small production batch. I did think the 916 was
produced in somewhat larger numbers.
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 11:07:11
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 7, 1:00 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:53:05 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >The 916 was a European market car. IIRC, it was built at the Porsche
> >factory. The European version of the 914 was sols as a "VW-Porsche
> >914" ans built in a VW facility. The 914-6 was foe the US market, a
> >914 with a 6cyl Porsche engine and transaxle.
>
> The 916 never made it out of prototype according to what I've read.
I believe it did, but I'll see what I can dig up.
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 14:44:23
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 2, 12:41 am, "Kerry Montgomery" <kamon...@teleport.com > wrote:
> "landotter" <landot...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193948570.643202.119690@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Well, the Kona Dew Beer Fetchmaster had been ultra reliable since I
> > bought it, as I tuned the wheels and repacked the front hub first
> > thing with actual grease. The rear hub I just adjusted the cones a
> > smidge without looking inside. So I'd been hearing that gentle "tic"
> > of bearings falling on each other, which means ya need grease, so
> > cracked the rear hub and found that there was a bearing missing and
> > zero grease on the drive side! Fortunately there was only one tiny pit
> > on the cone. Scott at the LBS seemed quite proud to provide me with a
> > bearing "on the house! What a wise guy.
>
> > I mean, can one really expect a full compliment of ball bearings for
> > $400? In other news, shitty single wall Rigida rims stay perfectly
> > true despite urban abuse--if they actually have tensioned spokes.
>
> > $400 bikes are apparently as good as the wrench that assembles them
> > from the box--gee, who'd a thunk it?
>
> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
> of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
> than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
> different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
> new set.
> Kerry- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
right. a most serious LBS error: a malicious, dangerous, intentional
first degree felony. The LBS is liable for damages. Find another shop.
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 21:41:00
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
"landotter" <landotter@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193948570.643202.119690@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> Well, the Kona Dew Beer Fetchmaster had been ultra reliable since I
> bought it, as I tuned the wheels and repacked the front hub first
> thing with actual grease. The rear hub I just adjusted the cones a
> smidge without looking inside. So I'd been hearing that gentle "tic"
> of bearings falling on each other, which means ya need grease, so
> cracked the rear hub and found that there was a bearing missing and
> zero grease on the drive side! Fortunately there was only one tiny pit
> on the cone. Scott at the LBS seemed quite proud to provide me with a
> bearing "on the house! What a wise guy.
>
> I mean, can one really expect a full compliment of ball bearings for
> $400? In other news, shitty single wall Rigida rims stay perfectly
> true despite urban abuse--if they actually have tensioned spokes.
>
> $400 bikes are apparently as good as the wrench that assembles them
> from the box--gee, who'd a thunk it?
>
From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
new set.
Kerry
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 18:04:05
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 6, 12:05 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>>>http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
> >>> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
> >> No I couldn't find any either.
> >> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>> Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
> >>> bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
> >>> Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
> >>> but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
> > Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >> The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
> >> made, but then everything's better made these days.
> >> It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Way back when, friends had several early (pre-1980)Loti: 2 Elans, 3
> > Europas and 2 first generation Esprits [basically, a warmed over
> > Europa]). Those cars (toys?) were spectacularly unreliable and, in the
> > case of the Elites and Europas, often down right dangerous (important
> > parts coming adrift at the wrong moment). One of my friends was nearly
> > killed when a front wheel/suspension on his Elan "came undone" under
> > hard cornering. And, let's not forget that the Lotus "design
> > philosophy" killed the very talented Jimmy Clark.
>
> "The properly designed racing car falls apart as it crosses the finish
> line first"
>
Thet's the one.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 17:16:18
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 6, 1:05 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>>>http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
> >>> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
> >> No I couldn't find any either.
> >> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>> Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
> >>> bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
> >>> Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
> >>> but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
> > Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
> >> The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
> >> made, but then everything's better made these days.
> >> It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > Way back when, friends had several early (pre-1980)Loti: 2 Elans, 3
> > Europas and 2 first generation Esprits [basically, a warmed over
> > Europa]). Those cars (toys?) were spectacularly unreliable and, in the
> > case of the Elites and Europas, often down right dangerous (important
> > parts coming adrift at the wrong moment). One of my friends was nearly
> > killed when a front wheel/suspension on his Elan "came undone" under
> > hard cornering. And, let's not forget that the Lotus "design
> > philosophy" killed the very talented Jimmy Clark.
>
> "The properly designed racing car falls apart as it crosses the finish
> line first"
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ozark's comments here are a good example of usenet explained aside
from e.d. Sounds like Ozark
was working around what I wrote. Using that as an example.
And like "the properly designed...." an incomplete statement until
Champman voiced it.
remembering Jack Brabham and Tournac got there first but without Brit
aeropsace.
OFF course Landotter wrote: "$400 bikes are apparently as good as the
wrench that assembles them
from the box--gee, who'd a thunk it?
Landotter? is your $400 bike the equal of REI's Inovaro? What are the
happy campers getting for another $400?
This time the question is not "will this drive the LBS under"? the
question is "is this a leading edge of Global Warming and $150 oil"?
changed right quick!
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 15:31:15
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 6, 10:18 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> there's more said. Chapman extended brit aerospace into road
> locomotive land reaching past the Italians who melded metalurgy, post
> war engine design and locomotive lightness into a winning combination.
> Think of extension as a work in progress with you the owner or driver
> as participant.
> Think of that when the carbon fiber fork breaks.
> another M and M?
> try the green ones.
the REI Inovora line is consumer, the $400 bike is innovation, the
extension.
The cemetery is filled with extended innovated consumers.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 15:18:06
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
there's more said. Chapman extended brit aerospace into road
locomotive land reaching past the Italians who melded metalurgy, post
war engine design and locomotive lightness into a winning combination.
Think of extension as a work in progress with you the owner or driver
as participant.
Think of that when the carbon fiber fork breaks.
another M and M?
try the green ones.
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 19:34:49
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> there's more said. Chapman extended brit aerospace into road
> locomotive land reaching past the Italians who melded metalurgy, post
> war engine design and locomotive lightness into a winning combination.
> Think of extension as a work in progress with you the owner or driver
> as participant.
> Think of that when the carbon fiber fork breaks.
> another M and M?
> try the green ones.
>
Real Cyclists [TM] eat Product W [1], not M&Ms.
[1] <http://www.sheldonbrown.com/w.html >.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Tradition is the worst rational for action.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 15:02:35
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
everyone agrees. asians agree. but like the bearing question on $400
bikes not covered by warranty, the spectrum is broad. Failures and
loose bolts are failures of maintenance, failure to perceive the
device is not a Chevy pickup but a racing car used on the street.
Continuously and at specified time patterns like 2 months into the
summer, RBT sees this complaint and inquiry category.
Same goes for the track. Currently Nascar's walls are bent under the
strain of cars overdriven onto the right fronts.
If I overload the Conti TT blowing sidewalls before the tread is half
gone surly I can bitch about sidewall weakness from Cafe Touring
Design butt the least i can do is recognize my overuse and correct it.
Chapman died at 54? Amazing.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 06:11:22
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 6, 2:39 am, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs > wrote:
> On 2007-11-06, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
> >>http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>
> > I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
>
> No I couldn't find any either.
>
> > Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
> > bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
> > Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
> > but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
>
> The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
> made, but then everything's better made these days.
>
> It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
Way back when, friends had several early (pre-1980)Loti: 2 Elans, 3
Europas and 2 first generation Esprits [basically, a warmed over
Europa]). Those cars (toys?) were spectacularly unreliable and, in the
case of the Elites and Europas, often down right dangerous (important
parts coming adrift at the wrong moment). One of my friends was nearly
killed when a front wheel/suspension on his Elan "came undone" under
hard cornering. And, let's not forget that the Lotus "design
philosophy" killed the very talented Jimmy Clark.
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 19:39:28
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2:39 am, Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>> On 2007-11-06, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>>> http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>>> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
>> No I couldn't find any either.
>>
>>> Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
>>> bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
>>> Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
>>> but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
>> The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
>> made, but then everything's better made these days.
>>
>> It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
>
> Way back when, friends had several early (pre-1980)Loti: 2 Elans, 3
> Europas and 2 first generation Esprits [basically, a warmed over
> Europa]). Those cars (toys?) were spectacularly unreliable and, in the
> case of the Elites and Europas, often down right dangerous (important
> parts coming adrift at the wrong moment). One of my friends was nearly
> killed when a front wheel/suspension on his Elan "came undone" under
> hard cornering. And, let's not forget that the Lotus "design
> philosophy" killed the very talented Jimmy Clark.
>
And Jochen Rindt.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Tradition is the worst rational for action.
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 12:05:20
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
>> [...]
>>>> http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>>> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
>> No I couldn't find any either.
>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
>>> bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
>>> Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
>>> but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
> Ben C <spams...@spam.eggs> wrote:
>> The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
>> made, but then everything's better made these days.
>> It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> Way back when, friends had several early (pre-1980)Loti: 2 Elans, 3
> Europas and 2 first generation Esprits [basically, a warmed over
> Europa]). Those cars (toys?) were spectacularly unreliable and, in the
> case of the Elites and Europas, often down right dangerous (important
> parts coming adrift at the wrong moment). One of my friends was nearly
> killed when a front wheel/suspension on his Elan "came undone" under
> hard cornering. And, let's not forget that the Lotus "design
> philosophy" killed the very talented Jimmy Clark.
"The properly designed racing car falls apart as it crosses the finish
line first"
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 13:55:34
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
LAST WORD
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/science/06tier.html?_r=1&8dpc&oref=slogin
If little children and primates show pretty much the same pattern you
see in adults, it calls into question just how deliberate these
rationalization processes are," he says. "We tend to think people have
an explicit agenda to rewrite history to make themselves look right,
but that's an outsider's perspective. This experiment shows that there
isn't always much conscious thought going on."
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 12:02:37
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
datakoll wrote:
> LAST WORD
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/science/06tier.html?_r=1&8dpc&oref=slogin
> If little children and primates show pretty much the same pattern you
> see in adults, it calls into question just how deliberate these
> rationalization processes are," he says. "We tend to think people have
> an explicit agenda to rewrite history to make themselves look right,
> but that's an outsider's perspective. This experiment shows that there
> isn't always much conscious thought going on."
usenet explained?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 04:02:59
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 5, 10:16 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 6:03 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 5, 5:16 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> > > > > >Europa?
>
> > > > > I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > > > > pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> > > > I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> > > > than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> > > > real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
>
> > > They've got a fairly modern Lotus at the local Lane Motor museum--it's
> > > pretty damn alluring--especially the dedication to austerity. It's
> > > low--not even half an inch of ass padding I reckon.
>
> > >http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>
> > I didn't see any Loti on that site (?). Is the Lotus in question an
> > Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare bones" Lotus. But it's a far
> > cry from the early Loti (Super Seven, Elite, Elan, Europa), which were
> > more like kit built go karts. Fun, but not a "real" car, just a
> > motorized toy.
>
> Nah, it's not featured on the site right now--they have a stupid
> number of cars at that museum. Most of them tagged and in running
> order!
>
> I do think it is an Elise. Toyota Engine, so practical for picking up
> an apple or two at the grocery.
Well, if an Elise landed at your door, titled and tagged in your name,
you could always use the Dew to do the shopping (since it can haul so
much more). ;-)
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 07:10:50
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 5, 11:16 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 6:03 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 5, 5:16 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> > > > > >Europa?
>
> > > > > I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > > > > pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> > > > I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> > > > than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> > > > real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
>
> > > They've got a fairly modern Lotus at the local Lane Motor museum--it's
> > > pretty damn alluring--especially the dedication to austerity. It's
> > > low--not even half an inch of ass padding I reckon.
>
> > >http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>
> > I didn't see any Loti on that site (?). Is the Lotus in question an
> > Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare bones" Lotus. But it's a far
> > cry from the early Loti (Super Seven, Elite, Elan, Europa), which were
> > more like kit built go karts. Fun, but not a "real" car, just a
> > motorized toy.
>
> Nah, it's not featured on the site right now--they have a stupid
> number of cars at that museum. Most of them tagged and in running
> order!
>
> I do think it is an Elise. Toyota Engine, so practical for picking up
> an apple or two at the grocery.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
look up the Elite. a beauty and a real race car for the street:
i want to type 'counterpart' but that's not appropriate - to the
Eddy Merx et al specials adverted on ebay and factory team websites.
the $$$ impact for google ads hit home with a sidebar (usually
ignored) covering Cobra tuneups and:
Find Lotus Elise In Essex
Search Our Huge Car Database for a
Range of Lotus's in the Essex area
a range?
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 20:16:53
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Nov 5, 6:03 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 5:16 pm, Ozark Bicycle
> >
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
> >
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> > > > >Europa?
> >
> > > > I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > > > pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
> >
> > > I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> > > than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> > > real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
> >
> > They've got a fairly modern Lotus at the local Lane Motor museum--it's
> > pretty damn alluring--especially the dedication to austerity. It's
> > low--not even half an inch of ass padding I reckon.
> >
> > http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>
> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?). Is the Lotus in question an
> Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare bones" Lotus. But it's a far
> cry from the early Loti (Super Seven, Elite, Elan, Europa), which were
> more like kit built go karts. Fun, but not a "real" car, just a
> motorized toy.
Nah, it's not featured on the site right now--they have a stupid
number of cars at that museum. Most of them tagged and in running
order!
I do think it is an Elise. Toyota Engine, so practical for picking up
an apple or two at the grocery.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 19:25:19
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 5, 6:03 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 5, 5:16 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> > > >Europa?
>
> > > I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > > pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> > I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> > than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> > real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
>
> They've got a fairly modern Lotus at the local Lane Motor museum--it's
> pretty damn alluring--especially the dedication to austerity. It's
> low--not even half an inch of ass padding I reckon.
>
> http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
I didn't see any Loti on that site (?). Is the Lotus in question an
Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare bones" Lotus. But it's a far
cry from the early Loti (Super Seven, Elite, Elan, Europa), which were
more like kit built go karts. Fun, but not a "real" car, just a
motorized toy.
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 02:39:00
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On 2007-11-06, Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
[...]
>> http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
>
> I didn't see any Loti on that site (?).
No I couldn't find any either.
> Is the Lotus in question an Elise? I think that's the modern, "bare
> bones" Lotus. But it's a far cry from the early Loti (Super Seven,
> Elite, Elan, Europa), which were more like kit built go karts. Fun,
> but not a "real" car, just a motorized toy.
The Elise is basically a motorized toy/go-kart too, although better
made, but then everything's better made these days.
It still has a leaky roof, catches on fire, etc. The usual mad fun.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 00:35:03
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
rort rort rort ozark believes the 914/6 is a real car rort rort
i'm moved to tears
rort rort
real dangerous.
drives like a john deere in heat.
nothing runs like a 914/6 excpectorin' maybe a 914/8
OZARK, YAWL NOT GOING FAST ENOUGH
the europa or whatever is what the colnago folk keep whining over
and is safe as a house at 11/10th's. a bullet.
the real deal is the guy having an orgasm at http://www.rei.com/novara
following Tales of Drackman who is OVIPOUROUSLY A PLANTED SHILL
from....
$800 with an aluminum clad contract?
yeah and you know where you can stick that odd bearing.
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 16:03:18
From: landotter
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 5, 5:16 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> > >Europa?
>
> > I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> > pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
> I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
> than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
> real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
They've got a fairly modern Lotus at the local Lane Motor museum--it's
pretty damn alluring--especially the dedication to austerity. It's
low--not even half an inch of ass padding I reckon.
http://lanemotormuseum.org/carcollection.htm
|
| | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 15:16:56
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 5, 5:10 pm, still me <wheeled...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:45:09 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >Hmmm....but the 914/916 has passengers, what, 6" higher up than a
> >Europa?
>
> I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
> pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Nov 2007 18:39:59
From: still me
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:16:56 -0800, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
>> I don't think so. It certainly felt like I was sitting on the
>> pavement. But, I'll have to check some specs to be sure.
>
>I've driven and ridden in both; IIRC, the Lotus was considerably lower
>than the 914/916. It also handled much better, but the Porsche was a
>real car, whilst the Lotus was more of a toy/bad-joke.
I'll defer to you on that point since I never drove the Lotus. I might
still check for some specs for curiosity.
BTW - I think you mean 914/914-6. The 916 was not a production car.
The 914-6 was.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 23:06:42
From: Jasper Janssen
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
<kamontgo@teleport.com > wrote:
>From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side worth
>of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
>than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
>different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with a
>new set.
The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
worrying about.
Jasper
|
| | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 02:37:58
From:
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Jasper Janssen writes:
>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly
> worth worrying about.
Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
size. Even these are not necessarily from the same machine (set) from
a bearing manufacturer. I don't believe you can detect a ball size
differenced using a digital micrometer or caliper with 1/10,000 inch
resolution. In fact, bearing balls are a good standard against which
to test you measurement instrument.
This is another bugaboo people want to toss into the ring as though it
were an important consideration. In that light, remember that
rotation mass on your bicycle counts twice... and many other fables.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:16:49
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Jasper Janssen writes:
>
>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>
>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly
>> worth worrying about.
>
> Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
> times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
> size. Even these are not necessarily from the same machine (set) from
> a bearing manufacturer. I don't believe you can detect a ball size
> differenced using a digital micrometer or caliper with 1/10,000 inch
> resolution. In fact, bearing balls are a good standard against which
> to test you measurement instrument.
>
> This is another bugaboo people want to toss into the ring as though it
> were an important consideration. In that light, remember that
> rotation mass on your bicycle counts twice... and many other fables.
fables? some of my personal favorites include:
* increasing spoke tension = increasing strength!
* bike bearings are elasto-hydrodynamically separated!
* metal fatigue can be eliminated in a material that doesn't strain age!
* bearings don't brinell!
* anodizing causes rim cracking!
* alumnus = competence!
|
| | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 10:22:30
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
"jim beam" wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>> Jasper Janssen writes:
>>
>>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>>
>>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
>>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly
>>> worth worrying about.
>>
>> Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
>> times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
>> size. Even these are not necessarily from the same machine (set) from
>> a bearing manufacturer. I don't believe you can detect a ball size
>> differenced using a digital micrometer or caliper with 1/10,000 inch
>> resolution. In fact, bearing balls are a good standard against which
>> to test you measurement instrument.
>>
>> This is another bugaboo people want to toss into the ring as though it
>> were an important consideration. In that light, remember that
>> rotation mass on your bicycle counts twice... and many other fables.
>
> fables? some of my personal favorites include:
>
> * increasing spoke tension = increasing strength!
> * bike bearings are elasto-hydrodynamically separated!
> * metal fatigue can be eliminated in a material that doesn't strain age!
> * bearings don't brinell!
> * anodizing causes rim cracking!
> * alumnus = competence!
Add
* Anonymous sock puppet = credibility!
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:32:28
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Tom Sherman wrote:
> "jim beam" wrote:
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>>> Jasper Janssen writes:
>>>
>>>>> From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive
>>>>> side worth of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly
>>>>> different in diameter than the old ones (not because it's newer,
>>>>> but because it came from a different manufacturing batch). Much
>>>>> better to replace all the balls with a new set.
>>>
>>>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
>>>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly
>>>> worth worrying about.
>>>
>>> Elastic deformation of bearing balls and races under load is many
>>> times larger than ball size differences among ones of the same nominal
>>> size. Even these are not necessarily from the same machine (set) from
>>> a bearing manufacturer. I don't believe you can detect a ball size
>>> differenced using a digital micrometer or caliper with 1/10,000 inch
>>> resolution. In fact, bearing balls are a good standard against which
>>> to test you measurement instrument.
>>>
>>> This is another bugaboo people want to toss into the ring as though it
>>> were an important consideration. In that light, remember that
>>> rotation mass on your bicycle counts twice... and many other fables.
>>
>> fables? some of my personal favorites include:
>>
>> * increasing spoke tension = increasing strength!
>> * bike bearings are elasto-hydrodynamically separated!
>> * metal fatigue can be eliminated in a material that doesn't strain age!
>> * bearings don't brinell!
>> * anodizing causes rim cracking!
>> * alumnus = competence!
>
> Add
> * Anonymous sock puppet = credibility!
>
further add
* red herring consumption is more important than attention to fact.
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 17:03:36
From: Kerry Montgomery
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
"Jasper Janssen" <jasper@jjanssen.org > wrote in message
news:5bbni3h79acuoaae1kbc1o7mm9jqgsmbl8@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
> <kamontgo@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>>From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side
>>worth
>>of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
>>than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
>>different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with
>>a
>>new set.
>
> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
> worrying about.
Jasper,
Darned if I know how much is worth worrying about - but from:
http://www.dejaydistribution.co.uk/ball_grades.html
if you buy Grade 25 (the best that www.loosescrews.com sells), the basic
diameter tolerance is twice the allowable lot diameter variation (0.0001"
vs. 0.000048"). If you mix balls from different lots, you might as well buy
balls from a single lot of a lower grade.
Kerry
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 18:09:56
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
Kerry Montgomery wrote:
> "Jasper Janssen" <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote in message
> news:5bbni3h79acuoaae1kbc1o7mm9jqgsmbl8@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:41:00 -0700, "Kerry Montgomery"
>> <kamontgo@teleport.com> wrote:
>>
>> >From what I remember, Scott should have provided you with a drive side
>>> worth
>>> of balls. The new one is likely to be significantly different in diameter
>>> than the old ones (not because it's newer, but because it came from a
>>> different manufacturing batch). Much better to replace all the balls with
>>> a
>>> new set.
>> The difference between batches is very, very small. Larger than the
>> difference between individual balls from a batch, but still hardly worth
>> worrying about.
>
> Jasper,
> Darned if I know how much is worth worrying about - but from:
> http://www.dejaydistribution.co.uk/ball_grades.html
> if you buy Grade 25 (the best that www.loosescrews.com sells), the basic
> diameter tolerance is twice the allowable lot diameter variation (0.0001"
> vs. 0.000048").
and the cups/cones are a good deal looser in tolerance than that!
> If you mix balls from different lots, you might as well buy
> balls from a single lot of a lower grade.
> Kerry
>
>
|
| |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 00:34:40
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
- ignore quoted whining-
bottom end cycles' quallity is phenomenal. Suplier's abilities for
competition at this level unreal.
buy now
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=600065&subcategory=60001001&brand=&sku=21890&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Road%20Bikes
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 14:28:21
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: How much quality *can* you expect for $400?
|
On Nov 1, 2:22 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Well, the Kona Dew Beer Fetchmaster had been ultra reliable since I
> bought it, as I tuned the wheels and repacked the front hub first
> thing with actual grease. The rear hub I just adjusted the cones a
> smidge without looking inside. So I'd been hearing that gentle "tic"
> of bearings falling on each other, which means ya need grease, so
> cracked the rear hub and found that there was a bearing missing and
> zero grease on the drive side! Fortunately there was only one tiny pit
> on the cone. Scott at the LBS seemed quite proud to provide me with a
> bearing "on the house! What a wise guy.
>
> I mean, can one really expect a full compliment of ball bearings for
> $400? In other news, shitty single wall Rigida rims stay perfectly
> true despite urban abuse--if they actually have tensioned spokes.
>
> $400 bikes are apparently as good as the wrench that assembles them
> from the box
Same for $1400 bikes, $4000 bikes, etc. I've been really surprised at
the el-crapo assembly/prep on some $1000+ bikes I've seen the past
several years.
>--gee, who'd a thunk it?
|
|
