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Main
Date: 04 Oct 2007 09:42:08
From: Smitty88
Subject: Known Defect?
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Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
trueness recently at my LBS).
The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
similar situations.
Steve J
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Date: 06 Oct 2007 01:24:17
From: Anthony King
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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On Oct 5, 3:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> Anthony King wrote:
> > "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
> > section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
> > Sad, just sad.
> > ---------------
> > And hilarious.
> > I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
> > choose.
> > Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
> > love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
> > always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
> > without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
> > reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
> > becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
> > squat in terms of speed..
> > I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
> > some aero wheels on itself, too.
> > BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
> > gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
> > The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
> > average an output of 250W)
> > So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?
> > You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
> > lowering your stem 20mm.
> > But of course that would be free.
>
> I'm not arguing and for me that's all true.
>
> If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
> all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
> less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
> takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
> until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
>
> Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
> noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Absolutely, "in competition" are your key words. But I think I'm
correctly assuming that the market for these wheels are not people
racing at such a high level that fractional differences matter. These
are wheels that go on rally riders' bikes. And the rally rider would
be better served by wheels that don't break spokes.
Anthony King
trinitybicycles.com
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 23:35:30
From:
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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On Oct 5, 4:26 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
>
> If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
> all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
> less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
> takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
> until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
>
> Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
> noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
ISTM that in an athletic contest, psychology is as important as
technology. Maybe more so.
If someone _believes_ the 2% difference is critical, that may inspire
an extra 3% effort or endurance, and that might lead to a victory...
whether or not the component is really 2% better.
If I were racing, I think I'd hire a hypnotist to convince me that a
fancy new decal on my bike would add the 2% performance advantage. It
would probably be cheaper, and wouldn't affect the reliability of my
bike. ;-)
- Frank Krygowski
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 20:48:09
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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> A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
>> all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
>> less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
>> takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
>> until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
>> Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
>> noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
frkrygow@gmail.com wrote:
> ISTM that in an athletic contest, psychology is as important as
> technology. Maybe more so.
> If someone _believes_ the 2% difference is critical, that may inspire
> an extra 3% effort or endurance, and that might lead to a victory...
> whether or not the component is really 2% better.
> If I were racing, I think I'd hire a hypnotist to convince me that a
> fancy new decal on my bike would add the 2% performance advantage. It
> would probably be cheaper, and wouldn't affect the reliability of my
> bike. ;-)
Good point. Back in the olden days, when I was peeing large amounts of
money into a race team, before today's automatic 'athlete additives'
testing, a pharmacist gave our guys mood elevators before big events.
Happy riders perform very well and can still pass a urine test.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 20:11:13
From: Anthony King
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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"the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
Sad, just sad.
---------------
And hilarious.
I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
choose.
Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
squat in terms of speed..
I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
some aero wheels on itself, too.
BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
average an output of 250W)
So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?
You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
lowering your stem 20mm.
But of course that would be free.
Anthony King
---------------
Trinity Bicycles
www.trinitybicycles.com
437 E. Pioneer Dr. #160
Irving, TX 75061
972.721.7090
Bicycles, parts, and handbuilt wheels for those who value proven and
practical performance.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 15:26:34
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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Anthony King wrote:
> "the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
> section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
> Sad, just sad.
> ---------------
> And hilarious.
> I guess the next time I decide to ride some spokes, I'll know what to
> choose.
> Of course manufacturers help propagate these misleading statements. I
> love it when they give wind tunnel results for aerowheels. They
> always test the bike without a rider (or even better, just wheels
> without the bike) and then give you some bogus "10% wind resistance
> reduction" claim. Of course when you stick a rider on the bike that
> becomes a 2.5% reduction in drag, which equals a gain approaching
> squat in terms of speed..
> I guess the next time my bike is going on a ride without me it can put
> some aero wheels on itself, too.
> BTW, even if the 10% reduction were true, it would equal a 1% speed
> gain (if you averaged an output of 250W)
> The real figure, 2.5%, will yield a whopping 0.5%, (again, if you
> average an output of 250W)
> So how fast must the guy have been going to get a 1mph gain?
> You can get twice the reduction in drag offered by aerowheels by
> lowering your stem 20mm.
> But of course that would be free.
I'm not arguing and for me that's all true.
If I might play JFT for a moment, one might argue that in competition,
all else being equal, a race may surely be won, and many are, on 2% or
less between a glorious victory and whoever the hell was second. All it
takes is for your product with 2% or what have you advantage to last
until the finish and not diminish the effort in any other way.
Whether these wheels meet that standard (not likely) I cannot say, just
noting that a "small" difference is sometimes "sufficient".
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 23:45:53
From: Qui si parla Campagnolo-www.vecchios.com
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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On Oct 4, 9:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
> wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
> female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
> had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
> a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
> 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
> properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
> trueness recently at my LBS).
> The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
> the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
> similar situations.
> Steve J
Like most wheelouttaboxes, these are not designed or built well. Go
see a wheelbuuilder, with some reputation, to design and build a
wheelset that will work better, cost less.
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 22:28:12
From: Anthony King
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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On Oct 4, 12:08 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
> > wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
> > female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
> > had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
> > a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
> > 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
> > properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
> > trueness recently at my LBS).
> > The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
> > the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
> > similar situations.
> > Steve J
>
> http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354...
>
> It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
> bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
> acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
> serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
> 105 hubs.
>
> Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
> the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
> hair out.
Landotter is correct. When I worked at a typical mainstream bike shop
the whole service department cursed these wheels. They break often
and are difficult to repair.
One of the reasons I started my own business was to never have to sell
a bike with junk like the WHR-550 wheels on it.
Anthony King
___________________
www.trinitybicycles.com
437 E. Pioneer Dr. #160
Irving, TX 75061
972.721.7090
Bicycles, parts, and handbuilt wheels for those who value proven and
practical performance.
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Date: 04 Oct 2007 17:08:46
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net > wrote:
> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
> wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
> female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
> had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
> a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
> 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
> properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
> trueness recently at my LBS).
> The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
> the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
> similar situations.
> Steve J
http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews
It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
105 hubs.
Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
hair out.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 07:20:26
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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landotter wrote:
> On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano WHR-550
>> wheels wheel. Actually, the spokes didn't break - the lip that holds the
>> female-threaded part to the hub pulled off allowing it to break free. I
>> had no such problem with my previous similar Rolf Vector wheels. Is this
>> a known defect? I'm neither that heavy nor that strong (170 pounds and
>> 69 years old) so it seems to me that it shouldn't happen. (spokes were
>> properly tensioned and, in fact, I even had the wheel checked for
>> trueness recently at my LBS).
>> The failures happened what standing and riding slowly in low gear at
>> the start of steep hill. Never had such a problem with other wheels in
>> similar situations.
>> Steve J
>
> http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews
I love these reviews, a typical one (gave it 5 out of 5):
"I logged 7000 miles on the rims before I suffered my first broken
spoke. It was then that I discovered my first stress crack too. I had
the spoke replaced and the shop told me I shouldn't wait too long to
replace the wheel. 30 miles later I got my second stress crack."
"Strengths:
Not bad standard equipment. I couldn't expect any more out of a wheel."
Another:
"the R550 spokes have a quarter of the wind drag. Plus the rim is aero
section. This difference is noticable, about 1 mph on my speedometer."
Sad, just sad.
>
> It's not just you. These wheels chafe my ass--because a lot of people
> bought them or got them OEM because shimano got the price down to an
> acceptable point. But, they are not light, reliable, or easily
> serviced. For the same price you could have gotten hand builts on some
> 105 hubs.
>
> Sorry to hear of your trouble, but if you can afford it, I'd just bite
> the bullet and get some traditional wheels instead of tearing your
> hair out.
>
From the Shimano spec:
"Spoke tension value
For front
980-1400N
For rear
Right (sprocket) side
1000-1600N
Left side
600-1100N
*These values should be used as a guide only."
Now, what were people claiming about lower tension in reduced spoke
count wheels? There's no free lunch.
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 08:03:34
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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Peter Cole wrote:
> From the Shimano spec:
>
> "Spoke tension value
>
> For front
> 980-1400N
> For rear
> Right (sprocket) side
> 1000-1600N
> Left side
> 600-1100N
>
> *These values should be used as a guide only."
>
> Now, what were people claiming about lower tension in reduced spoke
> count wheels? There's no free lunch.
From a couple of years ago, regarding these same wheels:
" >>>>unless you want a slightly cushier ride, in which case, low spoke count
>>>>on rough roads is a good thing.
>>>You're assume you're joking right? Even if it's true that lower spoke
>>>counts make a softer ride, that has to be one of the stupidest ways of
>>>achieving it.
>>why? it's a function of spoke elasticity. butted spokes are regularly
>>advocated on this group with elasticity cited as a benefit, so what's
>>your analysis that now says it's a bad thing?
> First off, for any given rim, to make the whole thing equally strong
> with fewer spokes requires more spoke tension.
you must have read "the book". unfortunately, like many of the other
gross errors in there, that's a fundamental misconception"
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Date: 05 Oct 2007 07:31:17
From: Peter Cole
Subject: Re: Known Defect?
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Peter Cole wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 11:42 am, Smitty88 <snijuni...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Twice now I've broken rear spokes on my fairly new Shimano
>>> WHR-550
>> http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/wheels/wheelsets/shimano/PRD_366354_2490crx.aspx#reviews
>>
>
Another interesting review:
" had concerns over some of the reviews I've read so I email shimano
australia to ask the question on quality, here is their reply:
WH-R550 wheels offer a good mix of low price and low weight. For any
brand or model of low-spoke count wheels (wheels with roughly half the
number of spokes compared to a conventional wheel), the maintenance
routine becomes very important.[...] If you're looking for something
to ride for heaps of Kms without doing any maintenance, you may want to
consider some 32- or 36-spoke conventional wheels."
The original release of WH-R550 in 2004 were spec'd with steel spokes.
From early 2005, these wheels were upgraded to stainless steels spokes
which have proven to be a bit more durable."
Apparently excellent wheels except if you actually want to ride them.
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