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Date: 24 Sep 2007 14:43:29
From: RF
Subject: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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Hi Experts, I have a 30 year old Dawes Galaxy that is in mint condition but I have been neglecting the lubrication and want to catch up. Dawes suggested dismantling both wheel bearings, the crank, and both head bearings every two years but the manual didn't even suggest the lubricants that should be used. My periods were random and usually much more than two years. A search online came up with one suggestion that ATF is preferable to engine oil on chains, because the engine oil is designed to attract metallic and other particles. I have just taken the head off the Galaxy and cleaned up the ball bearings and race tracks. Now I am trying to decide which lubricant to use - lithium grease or a more viscous bearing grease. The top bearing was heavily gooed up and the grease was thick, which I found a bit strange because I could see no way that dirt could enter it. The lower bearing appeared to have thinner grease and was much cleaner. It was exposed to the environment in a narrow slit around the circumference which was facing down. I have sent an email to Dawes asking about lubricants and will post the answer here if I receive one. TIA RF
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Date: 28 Sep 2007 08:21:31
From:
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 28, 10:12 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote: > smokeystrodt...@gmail.com wrote: > > On Sep 28, 4:12 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote: > >> travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: > >>> Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff > >>> endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows > >>> more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my > >>> cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil > >>> for Christmas. And the following Christmas...... > >> Make up some fancy labels, and come up with a good name for it. It's > >> ironic that what's one of the best lubricant for bicycle chains is also > >> the cheapest, but it gets no respect because it isn't exotic enough. > > >> Actually 4 ounces is not enough since you really want to soak the whole > >> chain in the stuff, not just drip it on the outside. Get the quarts and > >> make a big label to go over the existing label. Harrilube or Travoil > >> might be good names. Or maybe Travoil by Harrilube. > > >> Steve > >> "http://bicyclechain.info/" > > > Steve, do you have a source for the Chain Master? My closest LBS is 50 > > miles away and I didn't have any luck Googling it. > > "http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=10528"- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thanks for the information! Smokey
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Date: 28 Sep 2007 07:47:57
From:
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 28, 4:12 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote: > travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: > > Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff > > endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows > > more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my > > cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil > > for Christmas. And the following Christmas...... > > Make up some fancy labels, and come up with a good name for it. It's > ironic that what's one of the best lubricant for bicycle chains is also > the cheapest, but it gets no respect because it isn't exotic enough. > > Actually 4 ounces is not enough since you really want to soak the whole > chain in the stuff, not just drip it on the outside. Get the quarts and > make a big label to go over the existing label. Harrilube or Travoil > might be good names. Or maybe Travoil by Harrilube. > > Steve > "http://bicyclechain.info/" Steve, do you have a source for the Chain Master? My closest LBS is 50 miles away and I didn't have any luck Googling it. Smokey
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Date: 28 Sep 2007 08:12:48
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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smokeystrodtman@gmail.com wrote: > On Sep 28, 4:12 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote: >> travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: >>> Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff >>> endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows >>> more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my >>> cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil >>> for Christmas. And the following Christmas...... >> Make up some fancy labels, and come up with a good name for it. It's >> ironic that what's one of the best lubricant for bicycle chains is also >> the cheapest, but it gets no respect because it isn't exotic enough. >> >> Actually 4 ounces is not enough since you really want to soak the whole >> chain in the stuff, not just drip it on the outside. Get the quarts and >> make a big label to go over the existing label. Harrilube or Travoil >> might be good names. Or maybe Travoil by Harrilube. >> >> Steve >> "http://bicyclechain.info/" > > Steve, do you have a source for the Chain Master? My closest LBS is 50 > miles away and I didn't have any luck Googling it. "http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?sku=10528"
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Date: 28 Sep 2007 03:53:37
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 28, 4:12 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com > wrote: > travis.ha...@gmail.com wrote: > > Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff > > endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows > > more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my > > cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil > > for Christmas. And the following Christmas...... > > Make up some fancy labels, and come up with a good name for it. Phil Wood beat ya to it. > It's > ironic that what's one of the best lubricant for bicycle chains is also > the cheapest, but it gets no respect because it isn't exotic enough. > > Actually 4 ounces is not enough since you really want to soak the whole > chain in the stuff, not just drip it on the outside. Get the quarts and > make a big label to go over the existing label. Harrilube or Travoil > might be good names. Or maybe Travoil by Harrilube. > > Steve > "http://bicyclechain.info/"
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Date: 27 Sep 2007 22:43:26
From: travis.harry@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 27, 9:10 pm, "Jambo" <-...@-.- > wrote: > "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message > > news:rubrum-D1D255.17540627092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net... > > > Bacteria do not eat wheel bearing grease; > > not at such a rate that it compares to > > the normal migration of oil out of the grease. > > Sure, and it depends on where you're at: bacterial degradation of petroleum > products due to long-term storage is a well-documented issue, but not likely > to happen with high-turnovers of hardware store grease products. > > However, your statement was that bacteria do not eat petroleum - in fact, > they do. A major pollutant of forests given to lumbering is or was petrol-based chain saw oil. The numbers really are startling when added up. So the chain saw industry came up with soy based substitutes, required, I think, in many countries and smaller jurisdictions. Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil for Christmas. And the following Christmas......
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Date: 28 Sep 2007 02:12:34
From: SMS
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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travis.harry@gmail.com wrote: > Anyway,I saw $4 quarts of chain saw oil and an $8 gallon of the stuff > endorsed by or for one of the major chain saw mfgs, Poulan, "Who knows > more about lubricating chains?" If I can find the 4 oz bottles, my > cycling friends will have "hand-filled" bottles of Poulan chain oil > for Christmas. And the following Christmas...... Make up some fancy labels, and come up with a good name for it. It's ironic that what's one of the best lubricant for bicycle chains is also the cheapest, but it gets no respect because it isn't exotic enough. Actually 4 ounces is not enough since you really want to soak the whole chain in the stuff, not just drip it on the outside. Get the quarts and make a big label to go over the existing label. Harrilube or Travoil might be good names. Or maybe Travoil by Harrilube. Steve "http://bicyclechain.info/"
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 23:04:24
From:
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 24, 11:00 pm, "David L. Johnson" <david.john...@lehigh.edu > wrote: > r15...@aol.com wrote: > > Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum > > even though they don't burn it. > > Lard would probably work as a bearing grease. For how long, though, I wonder.
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 00:52:19
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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RF wrote: > Hi Experts, > > I have a 30 year old Dawes Galaxy that is in mint condition but I have > been neglecting the lubrication and want to catch up. Dawes suggested > dismantling both wheel bearings, the crank, and both head bearings every > two years but the manual didn't even suggest the lubricants that should > be used. Grease. Any grease will be OK. I use lithium, but others use different things. If you have non-clipless pedals, those also need repacking. Replace all the bearings --- after 30 years, it's time. My periods were random and usually much more than two years. More than 2 years is not good. Either that represents a lot of miles, or a lot of time sitting around, possibly with water in the grease. I like to re-pack any serviceable bearings -- these days, that means hubs and derailleur idlers -- every winter. I also shoot grease in the pedals, replace the cables, oil other pivots, and check out the rest. > > A search online came up with one suggestion that ATF is preferable to > engine oil on chains, because the engine oil is designed to attract > metallic and other particles. Pshaw. ATF will be just as "designed" to do that, for the same reason -- both are intended to keep particles in suspension. That rationale does not differentiate between the two. Besides, there wasn't a conscious effort to "design" motor oil to do that, it simply does do that, which seems like a good thing. The use of motor oil predates any design of such properties. So, if it attracts crud, clean it. If you don't like the crud on the outside, use a wax-based lube. > > I have just taken the head off the Galaxy and cleaned up the ball > bearings and race tracks. Replace the balls, grade 25. Replace all of your balls. No, not those. Now I am trying to decide which lubricant to > use - lithium grease or a more viscous bearing grease. More viscous grease, such as Phil Wood's, is overkill unless you ride a lot in the rain. Lithium is fine. The top bearing > was heavily gooed up and the grease was thick, which I found a bit > strange because I could see no way that dirt could enter it. Oil dries out in time. Grease is oil mixed with a "soap". It will dry out, eventually. This has probably taken several years to get in this state. The lower > bearing appeared to have thinner grease and was much cleaner. Nah. more of it washed out. -- David L. Johnson Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 21:39:18
From: RF
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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David L. Johnson wrote: > RF wrote: >> Hi Experts, >> >> I have a 30 year old Dawes Galaxy that is in mint condition but I have >> been neglecting the lubrication and want to catch up. Dawes suggested >> dismantling both wheel bearings, the crank, and both head bearings >> every two years but the manual didn't even suggest the lubricants that >> should be used. > > Grease. Any grease will be OK. I use lithium, but others use different > things. If you have non-clipless pedals, those also need repacking. > Replace all the bearings --- after 30 years, it's time. > > My periods were random and usually much more than two years. > > More than 2 years is not good. Either that represents a lot of miles, > or a lot of time sitting around, possibly with water in the grease. > > I like to re-pack any serviceable bearings -- these days, that means > hubs and derailleur idlers -- every winter. I also shoot grease in the > pedals, replace the cables, oil other pivots, and check out the rest. >> >> A search online came up with one suggestion that ATF is preferable to >> engine oil on chains, because the engine oil is designed to attract >> metallic and other particles. > > Pshaw. ATF will be just as "designed" to do that, for the same reason > -- both are intended to keep particles in suspension. That rationale > does not differentiate between the two. Besides, there wasn't a > conscious effort to "design" motor oil to do that, it simply does do > that, which seems like a good thing. The use of motor oil predates any > design of such properties. > > So, if it attracts crud, clean it. If you don't like the crud on the > outside, use a wax-based lube. >> >> I have just taken the head off the Galaxy and cleaned up the ball >> bearings and race tracks. > > Replace the balls, grade 25. Replace all of your balls. No, not those. > > Now I am trying to decide which lubricant to >> use - lithium grease or a more viscous bearing grease. > > More viscous grease, such as Phil Wood's, is overkill unless you ride a > lot in the rain. Lithium is fine. > > The top bearing >> was heavily gooed up and the grease was thick, which I found a bit >> strange because I could see no way that dirt could enter it. > > Oil dries out in time. Grease is oil mixed with a "soap". It will dry > out, eventually. This has probably taken several years to get in this > state. > > The lower >> bearing appeared to have thinner grease and was much cleaner. > > Nah. more of it washed out. > My thanks to everyone for the great replies. They have given me enough to chew on for at least a week ;-) RF
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 03:17:32
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Physical
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 01:12:46
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 24, 8:04 pm, r15...@aol.com wrote: > On Sep 24, 5:40 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Walmart in Florida sells Castrol Marine grease for boat trailer wheel > > bearings. Boat trailer wheel bearings take a serious beating from salt > > water and forgetfull owners. > > The castrol is a real surprise. The stuff is SLIPPERY, doesn't washout > > without a fight as in rear derailleur pulleys, yet is thick to cushion > > bearings rolling in less than perfect races. > > I've tried the usual greases mentioned in RBT, including lubriplate > > which is excellent, but all around the 21st century castrol is > > literally hard to beat. > > Is your frame steel? take it apart and clean it out then pour some > > linseed oil into it on a hot day to prevent rusting. > > Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum > even though they don't burn it. > > R. hey FOGETABOUTIT!!
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 00:04:00
From:
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 24, 5:40 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com > wrote: > Walmart in Florida sells Castrol Marine grease for boat trailer wheel > bearings. Boat trailer wheel bearings take a serious beating from salt > water and forgetfull owners. > The castrol is a real surprise. The stuff is SLIPPERY, doesn't washout > without a fight as in rear derailleur pulleys, yet is thick to cushion > bearings rolling in less than perfect races. > I've tried the usual greases mentioned in RBT, including lubriplate > which is excellent, but all around the 21st century castrol is > literally hard to beat. > Is your frame steel? take it apart and clean it out then pour some > linseed oil into it on a hot day to prevent rusting. Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum even though they don't burn it. R.
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 01:00:18
From: David L. Johnson
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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r15757@aol.com wrote: > Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum > even though they don't burn it. Lard would probably work as a bearing grease. -- David L. Johnson Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 20:28:18
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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In article <pL2dnTM5EYIdCGXbnZ2dnUVZ_u_inZ2d@ptd.net >, "David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote: > r15757@aol.com wrote: > > > Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum > > even though they don't burn it. > > Lard would probably work as a bearing grease. Work, but not effective as petroleum. Different chemical structures. For instance, lard contains esters and breaks down chemically into varnish. Also, bacteria eat lard, but do not eat petroleum. There is nothing like long chain alkanes for stable oils. -- Michael Press
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 23:39:26
From: Jambo
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message news:rubrum-4353DA.20281825092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net... > Also, bacteria eat lard, but do not eat petroleum. They do: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=373661&pageindex=1 and http://www.epa.gov/fedfac/documents/petrol.htm "Biodegradation - At many sites, natural bacteria in the soil and groundwater will use petroleum compounds as their primary source of energy or food. Although the rate at which bacteria destroy petroleum products will vary from site to site, natural biodegradation has now been documented at many contaminated sites around the world."
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Date: 27 Sep 2007 17:54:06
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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In article <46f9d43a$0$32513$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >, "Jambo" <-@-.- > wrote: > "Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message > news:rubrum-4353DA.20281825092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net... > > Also, bacteria eat lard, but do not eat petroleum. > > They do: > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=373661&pageindex=1 > and > http://www.epa.gov/fedfac/documents/petrol.htm > "Biodegradation - At many sites, natural bacteria in the soil and > groundwater will use petroleum compounds as their primary source of energy > or food. Although the rate at which bacteria destroy petroleum products will > vary from site to site, natural biodegradation has now been documented at > many contaminated sites around the world." Bacteria do not eat wheel bearing grease; not at such a rate that it compares to the normal migration of oil out of the grease. -- Michael Press
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Date: 27 Sep 2007 21:10:56
From: Jambo
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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"Michael Press" <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote in message news:rubrum-D1D255.17540627092007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net... > Bacteria do not eat wheel bearing grease; > not at such a rate that it compares to > the normal migration of oil out of the grease. Sure, and it depends on where you're at: bacterial degradation of petroleum products due to long-term storage is a well-documented issue, but not likely to happen with high-turnovers of hardware store grease products. However, your statement was that bacteria do not eat petroleum - in fact, they do.
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Date: 25 Sep 2007 00:31:13
From:
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 01:00:18 -0400, "David L. Johnson" <david.johnson@lehigh.edu > wrote: >r15757@aol.com wrote: > >> Bottom line is our machines would wither and die without petroleum >> even though they don't burn it. > >Lard would probably work as a bearing grease. Dear David, Bah! You must be in the pay of the lard and whale-oil industries, whose products are little better than snake-oil! Proper bicyclists use natural rawhide bearings: "Four days later, another blacksmith fitted some iron plates or washers behind the bearing boxes [of a 46-inch highwheeler], for the shoulders of these had been filed down so far, to offset the wear of the upper bearings, that the cams would no longer hold." "Further filings in the course of the next week's journey, almost obliterated the 'coned' character of the boxes and reduced them nearly to the condition of flat pieces of metal; so that at Cazenovia, 1,488 miles from the time of the repairs at Hartford, I was forced to make my first experiment with rawhide as a material for bearings." "This substance becomes pliable after several hours' soaking in water, and strips of it can then be fitted between the upper side of the axle and the ends of the fork, to compensate for the wear of the coned surfaces." "When dry, the rawhide is about as durable and unyielding as steel; but, as I took a ride of eight miles within a few hours of applying it to the axle, and continued my journey early the next morning, the strips worked out of their places and protruded from the sides, where they attracted enough moisture in an all-day's ride through the rain, to still further impair their usefulness." "After 215 miles' usage, therefore, I replaced them with new strips; and, though I waited only twelve hours for these to harden, they kept in position and rendered good service without further attentions for the remaining 994 miles of my record [10,000 miles]." "I doubt if I should have been able to finish this without new cones on the fork, unless I had resorted to the rawhide. Such resort, however, I do not venture to recommend except for bearings which are very badly worn; and I should say that at least twenty-four hours ought to be allowed for hardening, after the damp strips have been applied to the axle." "I may add that rawhide is an article not readily procurable, for I learned that in the whole of Syracuse, which is a city of 60,000 people, there was only one place (a trunk-maker's) where it could be obtained." --Karl Kron, circa 1884, "Ten Thousand Miles on a Bicycle" p. 43-4 Cheers, Carl Fogel
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 23:40:11
From: datakoll
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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Walmart in Florida sells Castrol Marine grease for boat trailer wheel bearings. Boat trailer wheel bearings take a serious beating from salt water and forgetfull owners. The castrol is a real surprise. The stuff is SLIPPERY, doesn't washout without a fight as in rear derailleur pulleys, yet is thick to cushion bearings rolling in less than perfect races. I've tried the usual greases mentioned in RBT, including lubriplate which is excellent, but all around the 21st century castrol is literally hard to beat. Is your frame steel? take it apart and clean it out then pour some linseed oil into it on a hot day to prevent rusting.
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 22:27:43
From: landotter
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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On Sep 24, 4:43 pm, RF <R...@Den.con > wrote: > Hi Experts, > > I have a 30 year old Dawes Galaxy that is in mint condition but I have > been neglecting the lubrication and want to catch up. Dawes suggested > dismantling both wheel bearings, the crank, and both head bearings every > two years but the manual didn't even suggest the lubricants that should > be used. My periods were random and usually much more than two years. For bearings, go to the automotive store, get a tub of grease. It matters little what kind, just pack the cups generously. Some folks swear by boat trailer bearing grease, which I think has a higher viscosity. I use the cheap "Coastal" stuff and it works fine. Get some bike stuff if the macho smell of the automotive versions bug ya. Repack as needed. I also repack new hubs first thing, as they never come with enough grease. Chain lube is a religious issue, but you can't go wrong with a classic dry lube. The best deal is the Dupont brand lube at Lowes. Why pay more for the tiny can with the cyclist on it? Plenty of posts about this. I probably already offended someone.
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 17:22:54
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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RF wrote: > I have a 30 year old Dawes Galaxy that is in mint condition but I have > been neglecting the lubrication and want to catch up. Dawes suggested > dismantling both wheel bearings, the crank, and both head bearings every > two years but the manual didn't even suggest the lubricants that should > be used. My periods were random and usually much more than two years. > > A search online came up with one suggestion that ATF is preferable to > engine oil on chains, because the engine oil is designed to attract > metallic and other particles. > > I have just taken the head off the Galaxy and cleaned up the ball > bearings and race tracks. Now I am trying to decide which lubricant to > use - lithium grease or a more viscous bearing grease. The top bearing > was heavily gooed up and the grease was thick, which I found a bit > strange because I could see no way that dirt could enter it. The lower > bearing appeared to have thinner grease and was much cleaner. It was > exposed to the environment in a narrow slit around the circumference > which was facing down. > I have sent an email to Dawes asking about lubricants and will post the > answer here if I receive one. There are many acceptable answers and many opinions within and outside that range. We use Lubriplate 130AA white lithium grease because: - Its' acceptably good (we found 630 overly stiff and 107/110 too thin) -Designed for loose-ball applications (front end lube can push out of ball bearing assemblies ) - Closest available lubricant to classic Campagnolo white lithium grease, which we liked a lot despite a lousy package. - It's available in handy sized tubes (doesn't fill with crud like jars) - It's white so we can see the amount of contamination next time in. - Our local Lubriplate distributor delivers cases of it promptly. Many other good answers, that's mine p.s. Since Dawes did not actually make any of the bearing assemblies they may not be any more expert than I. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 20:18:02
From: blisterlester
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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A Muzi wrote: >> [snip] > > We use Lubriplate 130AA white lithium grease because: > [snip] > - It's white so we can see the amount of contamination next time in. This may be showing just how really stupid I am, but as a Phil user I never thought of this advantage. Is that why white grease is white?
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Date: 24 Sep 2007 22:28:00
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Latest and greatest in lubricants??
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> A Muzi wrote: >>> [snip] >> We use Lubriplate 130AA white lithium grease because: >> [snip] >> - It's white so we can see the amount of contamination next time in. blisterlester wrote: > This may be showing just how really stupid I am, but as a Phil user I > never thought of this advantage. Is that why white grease is white? We find it useful in that way but as far as I know grease may be tinted just about any color, mostly for branding. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971
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