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Main
Date: 30 Oct 2007 10:08:35
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
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There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some cyclist
thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By leaning,
it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the dropped bar, but
with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was said that by leaning on the
bars, one could flip over the bars by having too lean.
I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous as
riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I have the
nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the weight of my hands off
the handlebars. The lean weight would be close to zero. I do this to lessen
the fatigue in the shoulders and wrist on long rides.
I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride have sore
shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the handlebars. Many times
it's has to do with the nose of the saddle being tilted down, which puts
quite a bit of weight on the bars.
By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilited up, those
aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous as leaning on
the handlebars.
-tom
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 14:36:38
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 10:06 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193950707.981967.143050@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Nov 1, 9:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> > I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
> >> > moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
> >> > weight off.
>
> >> My I ask how far in "inches" did you slide your saddle?
> >> -tom
>
> > I used to have my knee over the spindle, and then I ended up moving
> > the saddle about 1.25" back.
>
> > Joseph
>
> So does that mean your arms are now 1.25" further away from the
> handlebars?
> -tom
No, I got a shorter stem and raised it too. As time passed, I put the
longer stem back on and lowered it, then lowered it again, as I got
more limber and lost weight.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:58:27
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 9:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> > I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
> > moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
> > weight off.
>
> My I ask how far in "inches" did you slide your saddle?
> -tom
I used to have my knee over the spindle, and then I ended up moving
the saddle about 1.25" back.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 14:06:33
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193950707.981967.143050@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 1, 9:01 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> > I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
>> > moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
>> > weight off.
>>
>> My I ask how far in "inches" did you slide your saddle?
>> -tom
>
> I used to have my knee over the spindle, and then I ended up moving
> the saddle about 1.25" back.
>
> Joseph
>
So does that mean your arms are now 1.25" further away from the
handlebars?
-tom
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:22:38
From: Art Harris
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
joseph.santanie wrote:
>
> I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
> moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
> weight off. But as others have noted can be a problem, I ended up
> sliding forward onto the nose of the saddle too much and this was
> uncomfortable on it's own, and didn't help my my weight distribution
> problem. With the seat tilted up a bit, it just serves to keep my butt
> in place more.
>
I agree that moving the saddle back results in less weight on the
hands. But you should then switch to a shorter stem. Otherwise you're
reaching too far for the bars ( which may have you moving up toward
the front of the saddle).
Also, the business about using a level to set saddle tilt can be
deceiving depending on the shape of the saddle.
A good discussion of all this is at:
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
Art Harris
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 17:39:38
From: (PeteCresswell)
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Per Art Harris:
>Also, the business about using a level to set saddle tilt can be
>deceiving depending on the shape of the saddle.
And, in the case of sus bikes, suspension sag...
--
PeteCresswell
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 12:02:33
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 6:41 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193936390.173865.195050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> >> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> >> > Joseph
>
> >> Ah, got you now!!!
> >> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
> >> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> >> -tom
>
> > I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
> > slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
> > tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
> > weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
> > I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
> > the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
> > sure.
> > Joseph
>
> Joseph,
> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
> statements.
> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
> you were smarter than that.
> -tom
It's both the placement and the angle that matter. If the seat was too
far forward and level, such that I had way too much weight on my
hands, just tilting it up a bit wouldn't help all that much. I'd be
sitting too far forward with lots of weight on my hands, and the nose
jammed into my crotch.
I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
weight off. But as others have noted can be a problem, I ended up
sliding forward onto the nose of the saddle too much and this was
uncomfortable on it's own, and didn't help my my weight distribution
problem. With the seat tilted up a bit, it just serves to keep my butt
in place more.
Moving the seat back to a place my butt is supposed to spend most of
it's time helps get my weight distribution right, tilting the saddle
up helps keep my butt where it is supposed to be.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:01:59
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193943753.799652.118450@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 1, 6:41 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1193936390.173865.195050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>> >> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>> >> > Joseph
>>
>> >> Ah, got you now!!!
>> >> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>> >> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>> >> -tom
>>
>> > I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>> > slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>> > tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>> > weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>> > I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>> > the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>> > sure.
>> > Joseph
>>
>> Joseph,
>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>> statements.
>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level
>> first
>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>> you were smarter than that.
>> -tom
>
> It's both the placement and the angle that matter. If the seat was too
> far forward and level, such that I had way too much weight on my
> hands, just tilting it up a bit wouldn't help all that much. I'd be
> sitting too far forward with lots of weight on my hands, and the nose
> jammed into my crotch.
>
> I used to have too much weight on my hands, and I found that if I
> moved the saddle back (and had my butt on it) it took some of the
> weight off.
My I ask how far in "inches" did you slide your saddle?
-tom
> But as others have noted can be a problem, I ended up
> sliding forward onto the nose of the saddle too much and this was
> uncomfortable on it's own, and didn't help my my weight distribution
> problem. With the seat tilted up a bit, it just serves to keep my butt
> in place more.
>
> Moving the seat back to a place my butt is supposed to spend most of
> it's time helps get my weight distribution right, tilting the saddle
> up helps keep my butt where it is supposed to be.
>
> Joseph
>
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 10:01:01
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 6:46 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> -snip unlevel saddle-
>
> joseph.santanie...@gmail.com wrote:
> > But that is just it, that the exact right place varies. And different
> > body types and compositions and proportions dictate what is best.
>
> And even a single rider on one bike can mover forward for high rpm and
> slide back on a long climb.
> --
> Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Right, but it's where (fore-aft) that range is that matters.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 09:59:50
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> > Joseph
>
> Ah, got you now!!!
> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> -tom
I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
sure.
I think we are more or less saying the same thing, but I'm focused on
the weight and weight distribution, and you are talking about the
pressure on the bars, whether from weight distribution, or having to
push to keep from sliding off the nose.
One thing is supporting the weight of your upper body, another is
pushing back on the bar so you don't slip off the front of the seat.
Both have to be set up right.
Joseph
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 10:41:01
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193936390.173865.195050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>> > Joseph
>>
>> Ah, got you now!!!
>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>> -tom
>
> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
> sure.
> Joseph
>
Joseph,
you're shooting yourself in the foot.
With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
statements.
You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
you were smarter than that.
-tom
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Date: 01 Nov 2007 12:57:26
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:41:01 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
<tom@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
>
><joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1193936390.173865.195050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>>> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>>> > Joseph
>>>
>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>>> -tom
>>
>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>> sure.
>> Joseph
>>
>
>Joseph,
>you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>statements.
>You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>you were smarter than that.
>-tom
Dear Tom,
What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
your saddle?
:-)
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 00:32:17
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
> Dear Tom,
>
> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> your saddle?
>
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
Carl: Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to wonder how
much more in-control you might feel if the seat were automatically adjusting
to compensate for the incline?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
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Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:09:43
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> ...Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
> you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to wonder how
> much more in-control you might feel if the seat were automatically adjusting
> to compensate for the incline?
Tools: torpedo level and tape measure.
Measure distance of rear wheel from ground with seat level, measure
wheelbase, and determine angle.
For the seat on my bike to point down, I need to be descending a 30%
grade or more. I imagine I could develop a quite high speed in short
order doing that.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
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| | | | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 21:09:10
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Mike Jacoubowsky writes:
>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> your saddle?
> Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
> you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to
> wonder how much more in-control you might feel if the seat were
> automatically adjusting to compensate for the incline?
I doubt that you can drive down a road steeper than SF streets on
normal highways, or for that matter cause as much forward pitch as
braking for a traffic light. Tilting the seat would be more
disconcerting, it being an unusual motion for people who have moved
faster than snail's pace.
Tilting trains are made that way for a different reason that becomes
apparent when traveling on curvy track. Walking down the aisle is
possible without bumping into adjacent seats to grasping the luggage
rack above the seats. My first experience with this was in the
Cisalpino when saw the conductor walking from seat to seat checking
tickets without lurching from side-to-side.
http://www.cisalpino.com/reiseinfo/angebotsinfo.php?sprache=en
http://blog.citytrip.ch/en/images/2007/07/15/cisalpino.jpg
A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days on
Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had handrails
and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during rough
weather.
Jobst Brandt
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Date: 02 Nov 2007 18:44:00
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
> I doubt that you can drive down a road steeper than SF streets on
> normal highways, or for that matter cause as much forward pitch as
> braking for a traffic light. Tilting the seat would be more
> disconcerting, it being an unusual motion for people who have moved
> faster than snail's pace.
Probably true. It might add to the disorientation you get as you look
forward and see nothing below the front of your car.
The scariest steep-street story I can give was during the SF GranPrix a few
years back. I was on my motorcycle, and didn't realize the street I was
heading up was going... UP. Really, incredibly steeply, UP. Wish I could
remember the name for you. I was scared to death I was going to lift the
front wheel or stall it out at the top, behind a car at the stop sign. The
reality is that I was probably a good long way from lifting the front end
into the air and cartwheeling backward, but it sure didn't feel that way.
Keep in mind I've never done any dirtbike riding, so it was a new experience
for me.
I've ridden up a similarly-steep hill on my bike and didn't have such
feelings, because it's easy to get out over the front. Would have hated to
have to stop and try to start back up it again though!
--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:472b91f6$0$14115$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Mike Jacoubowsky writes:
>
>>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>>> your saddle?
>
>> Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
>> you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to
>> wonder how much more in-control you might feel if the seat were
>> automatically adjusting to compensate for the incline?
>
> I doubt that you can drive down a road steeper than SF streets on
> normal highways, or for that matter cause as much forward pitch as
> braking for a traffic light. Tilting the seat would be more
> disconcerting, it being an unusual motion for people who have moved
> faster than snail's pace.
>
> Tilting trains are made that way for a different reason that becomes
> apparent when traveling on curvy track. Walking down the aisle is
> possible without bumping into adjacent seats to grasping the luggage
> rack above the seats. My first experience with this was in the
> Cisalpino when saw the conductor walking from seat to seat checking
> tickets without lurching from side-to-side.
>
> http://www.cisalpino.com/reiseinfo/angebotsinfo.php?sprache=en
> http://blog.citytrip.ch/en/images/2007/07/15/cisalpino.jpg
>
> A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
> bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
> with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
> sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days on
> Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had handrails
> and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during rough
> weather.
>
> Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 16:59:51
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
>>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>>> your saddle?
> Mike Jacoubowsky writes:
>> Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
>> you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to
>> wonder how much more in-control you might feel if the seat were
>> automatically adjusting to compensate for the incline?
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> I doubt that you can drive down a road steeper than SF streets on
> normal highways, or for that matter cause as much forward pitch as
> braking for a traffic light. Tilting the seat would be more
> disconcerting, it being an unusual motion for people who have moved
> faster than snail's pace.
>
> Tilting trains are made that way for a different reason that becomes
> apparent when traveling on curvy track. Walking down the aisle is
> possible without bumping into adjacent seats to grasping the luggage
> rack above the seats. My first experience with this was in the
> Cisalpino when saw the conductor walking from seat to seat checking
> tickets without lurching from side-to-side.
>
> http://www.cisalpino.com/reiseinfo/angebotsinfo.php?sprache=en
> http://blog.citytrip.ch/en/images/2007/07/15/cisalpino.jpg
>
> A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
> bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
> with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
> sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days on
> Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had handrails
> and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during rough
> weather.
Just checking to see if the character ALT-130 displays correctly on usenet:
passé
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 05:30:49
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article <13in7c194o077b@corp.supernews.com >,
A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
[...]
> > A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
> > bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
> > with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
> > sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days on
> > Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had handrails
> > and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during rough
> > weather.
>
> Just checking to see if the character ALT-130 displays correctly on usenet:
> passé
Strictly speaking not a function of usenet; rather it
is a function of the sending and receiving clients.
Without quoting chapter and verse (unless anybody shows
the least interest) usenet allows for encoding of other
than seven bit ASCII, but makes no rules, guidelines,
or guarantees. It is all at the risk of the sender, his
client software, the receiver's client software, and
the receiver.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:17:30
From: Tom Sherman
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Michael Press wrote:
> In article <13in7c194o077b@corp.supernews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
>>> bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
>>> with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
>>> sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days on
>>> Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had handrails
>>> and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during rough
>>> weather.
>> Just checking to see if the character ALT-130 displays correctly on usenet:
>> passé
>
> Strictly speaking not a function of usenet; rather it
> is a function of the sending and receiving clients.
> Without quoting chapter and verse (unless anybody shows
> the least interest) usenet allows for encoding of other
> than seven bit ASCII, but makes no rules, guidelines,
> or guarantees. It is all at the risk of the sender, his
> client software, the receiver's client software, and
> the receiver.
gene might write passALT130 instead of passé.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
When did ignorance of biology become a "family value"?
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 08:10:21
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Dans le message de
news:rubrum-DE5260.22305102112007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com,
Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> In article <13in7c194o077b@corp.supernews.com>,
> A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
>>> bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
>>> with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
>>> sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days
>>> on Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had
>>> handrails and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during
>>> rough weather.
>>
>> Just checking to see if the character ALT-130 displays correctly on
>> usenet: passé
>
> Strictly speaking not a function of usenet; rather it
> is a function of the sending and receiving clients.
> Without quoting chapter and verse (unless anybody shows
> the least interest) usenet allows for encoding of other
> than seven bit ASCII, but makes no rules, guidelines,
> or guarantees. It is all at the risk of the sender, his
> client software, the receiver's client software, and
> the receiver.
I'm pretty sure it also depends on the newsgroup. I read and write on
Russian fora, yet those characters won't appear here, I believe.
???????? ??? ?????, ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??????.
--
Bonne route !
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 03 Nov 2007 10:32:01
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article <472c652e$0$4986$4c368faf@roadrunner.com >,
"Sandy" <leurrre@free.fr > wrote:
> Dans le message de
> news:rubrum-DE5260.22305102112007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com,
> Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> > In article <13in7c194o077b@corp.supernews.com>,
> > A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >> jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >>> A steady lateral or longitudinal acceleration generally does not
> >>> bother humans the way changing acceleration does. Humans can put up
> >>> with that. Since travel by ocean liners is passe' we only get
> >>> sea-sick on rough flights in the air. However, being sick for days
> >>> on Atlantic crossings was a pain. All halls an the ship had
> >>> handrails and these had plenty of puke-bags hanging on them during
> >>> rough weather.
> >>
> >> Just checking to see if the character ALT-130 displays correctly on
> >> usenet: passé
> >
> > Strictly speaking not a function of usenet; rather it
> > is a function of the sending and receiving clients.
> > Without quoting chapter and verse (unless anybody shows
> > the least interest) usenet allows for encoding of other
> > than seven bit ASCII, but makes no rules, guidelines,
> > or guarantees. It is all at the risk of the sender, his
> > client software, the receiver's client software, and
> > the receiver.
>
> I'm pretty sure it also depends on the newsgroup. I read and write on
> Russian fora, yet those characters won't appear here, I believe.
>
> ???????? ??? ?????, ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ? ?????? ??????.
Which Russian usenet groups?
What line in your headers indicates that Cyrillic
characters should be interpolated?
Nothing in your headers says ISO 8859-5.
If it is not seven bit ASCII, usenet
protocol has nothing to say about octet interpretation.
It is all up to the sending and receiving software.
That your text is or is not seen as Cyrillic characters
is independent of usenet protocols.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Nov 2007 04:57:21
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On 2007-11-02, Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> your saddle?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
> Carl: Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
> you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to wonder how
> much more in-control you might feel if the seat were automatically adjusting
> to compensate for the incline?
The result might just be increased nausea. People have made trains that
bank around corners so that the only force you feel is directly
downwards into the seat, and cars with active suspension that do the
same.
They discovered that when your eyes see that you're going round a corner
but your sense of balance is telling you only that you just got a bit
heavier there is a reflex that decides that this perceptual incongruity
must be the result of something you ate.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 19:18:16
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:32:17 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> your saddle?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>Carl: Even in a car, driving down a very steep incline is a bit scary, as
>you find yourself sliding forward off the seat. Interesting to wonder how
>much more in-control you might feel if the seat were automatically adjusting
>to compensate for the incline?
>
>--Mike Jacoubowsky
>Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReaction.com
>Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Dear Mike,
Have you considered how many degrees a 10% grade is?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 12:58:18
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:n88ki31dfdoiuhmg3sd1od3v076vb71m02@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 1 Nov 2007 10:41:01 -0700, "Tom Nakashima"
> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>><joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1193936390.173865.195050@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Nov 1, 2:20 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>> > That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>>>> > forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>>>> > Joseph
>>>>
>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>>>> -tom
>>>
>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>>> sure.
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>
>>Joseph,
>>you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>>With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>>statements.
>>You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level
>>first
>>before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>>you were smarter than that.
>>-tom
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> your saddle?
>
> :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
That changes everything Carl,
If you have your seat level, and riding an incline, it would be like tilting
the nose of the saddle up. The opposite if you were on an decline, it
would feel like the nose of the saddle had a negative tilt.
That's why it's important to do the test on level ground.
I like to have the nose of my saddle slightly tilted up. I'm balanced so
there is zero weight on the handlebars on level ground. You should try it
sometime, at least experiment with saddle tilt.
-tom
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 16:54:20
From: Ben C
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On 2007-11-01, Tom Nakashima <tom@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
>
><carlfogel@comcast.net> wrote in message
[...]
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> your saddle?
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
> That changes everything Carl,
> If you have your seat level, and riding an incline, it would be like tilting
> the nose of the saddle up. The opposite if you were on an decline, it
> would feel like the nose of the saddle had a negative tilt.
> That's why it's important to do the test on level ground.
I have noticed that downhill MTB racers often have the seat very
nose-up. That would make it level when going down the hill. Not that
they ever actually sit on it though.
|
| | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>>> sure.
> "Tom Nakashima"
>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>> statements.
>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>> you were smarter than that.
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> your saddle?
The damned road will just have to change!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:54:55
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org >
wrote:
>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>
>>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>
>> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>>>> sure.
>
>> "Tom Nakashima"
>>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>>> statements.
>>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>>> you were smarter than that.
>
>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> your saddle?
>
>The damned road will just have to change!
Dear Andrew,
That's the spirit!
(Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
"If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
--"Life on the Mississippi"
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article
<2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> >
> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> >
> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
> >>>> sure.
> >
> >> "Tom Nakashima"
> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
> >>> statements.
> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
> >>> you were smarter than that.
> >
> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> >> your saddle?
> >
> >The damned road will just have to change!
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> That's the spirit!
>
> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
>
> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
>
> --"Life on the Mississippi"
Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
Days, and is part of the description of preparations
for a race.
_______________________________________________
When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
rafts, and such things
_______________________________________________
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 19:24:06
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>In article
><2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com>,
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>> >
>> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>> >
>> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>> >>>> sure.
>> >
>> >> "Tom Nakashima"
>> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>> >>> statements.
>> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>> >>> you were smarter than that.
>> >
>> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> >> your saddle?
>> >
>> >The damned road will just have to change!
>>
>> Dear Andrew,
>>
>> That's the spirit!
>>
>> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
>>
>> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
>> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
>> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
>> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
>> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
>> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
>> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
>> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
>>
>> --"Life on the Mississippi"
>
>Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
>everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
>Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
>state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
>to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
>steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
>The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
>Days, and is part of the description of preparations
>for a race.
>
>_______________________________________________
>When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
>great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
>taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
>which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
>for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
>and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
>_______________________________________________
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
>long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
>forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
>this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
>valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
>died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
>rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
>occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
>mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
>that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
>years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
>confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
>record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
>often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
>rafts, and such things
>_______________________________________________
Dear Michael,
Thank heavens the innocent have been saved from a credulous and
misplaced trust in the use of spirit levels in the barber shops aboard
the finer steam boats of the 1850's!
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 19:32:50
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article
<6vjvi39nn4ern0lvjot7dn4qddu5f1e84k@4ax.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com>,
> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> >> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> >> >
> >> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
> >> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
> >> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> >> >
> >> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
> >> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
> >> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
> >> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
> >> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
> >> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
> >> >>>> sure.
> >> >
> >> >> "Tom Nakashima"
> >> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
> >> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
> >> >>> statements.
> >> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
> >> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
> >> >>> you were smarter than that.
> >> >
> >> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> >> >> your saddle?
> >> >
> >> >The damned road will just have to change!
> >>
> >> Dear Andrew,
> >>
> >> That's the spirit!
> >>
> >> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
> >>
> >> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
> >> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
> >> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
> >> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
> >> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
> >> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
> >> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
> >> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
> >>
> >> --"Life on the Mississippi"
> >
> >Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
> >everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
> >Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
> >state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
> >to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
> >steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
> >The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
> >Days, and is part of the description of preparations
> >for a race.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
> >great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
> >taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
> >which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
> >for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
> >and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
> >long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
> >forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
> >this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
> >valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
> >died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
> >rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
> >occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
> >mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
> >that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
> >years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
> >confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
> >record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
> >often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
> >rafts, and such things
> >_______________________________________________
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> Thank heavens the innocent have been saved from a credulous and
> misplaced trust in the use of spirit levels in the barber shops aboard
> the finer steam boats of the 1850's!
Carl quoted a passage out of context, the context of racing.
The missing context leads the reader to infer that steamboatmen
were obsessive about trim.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 20:55:58
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:32:50 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>In article
><6vjvi39nn4ern0lvjot7dn4qddu5f1e84k@4ax.com>,
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> ><2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com>,
>> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>> >> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>> >> >
>> >> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>> >> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>> >> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>> >> >
>> >> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>> >> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>> >> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>> >> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>> >> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>> >> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>> >> >>>> sure.
>> >> >
>> >> >> "Tom Nakashima"
>> >> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>> >> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>> >> >>> statements.
>> >> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>> >> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>> >> >>> you were smarter than that.
>> >> >
>> >> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> >> >> your saddle?
>> >> >
>> >> >The damned road will just have to change!
>> >>
>> >> Dear Andrew,
>> >>
>> >> That's the spirit!
>> >>
>> >> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
>> >>
>> >> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
>> >> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
>> >> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
>> >> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
>> >> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
>> >> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
>> >> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
>> >> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
>> >>
>> >> --"Life on the Mississippi"
>> >
>> >Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
>> >everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
>> >Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
>> >state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
>> >to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
>> >steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
>> >The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
>> >Days, and is part of the description of preparations
>> >for a race.
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
>> >great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
>> >taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
>> >which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
>> >for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
>> >and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
>> >long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
>> >forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
>> >this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
>> >valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
>> >died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
>> >rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
>> >occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
>> >mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
>> >that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
>> >years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
>> >confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
>> >record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
>> >often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
>> >rafts, and such things
>> >_______________________________________________
>>
>> Dear Michael,
>>
>> Thank heavens the innocent have been saved from a credulous and
>> misplaced trust in the use of spirit levels in the barber shops aboard
>> the finer steam boats of the 1850's!
>
>Carl quoted a passage out of context, the context of racing.
>The missing context leads the reader to infer that steamboatmen
>were obsessive about trim.
Dear Michael,
Absolutely!
Rec.steamboats.racing is full of similar corrections for those whose
reading abilities leave them prey to unscrupulous confidence men, most
of them from Herman Melville, who posts around the beginning of April.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Nov 2007 06:22:42
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article
<k9pvi3d2frnvn6s72vrb1tkcp0elj26m86@4ax.com >,
carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:32:50 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><6vjvi39nn4ern0lvjot7dn4qddu5f1e84k@4ax.com>,
> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >In article
> >> ><2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com>,
> >> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> >> >> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
> >> >> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
> >> >> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> >> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
> >> >> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
> >> >> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
> >> >> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
> >> >> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
> >> >> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
> >> >> >>>> sure.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> "Tom Nakashima"
> >> >> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
> >> >> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
> >> >> >>> statements.
> >> >> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
> >> >> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
> >> >> >>> you were smarter than that.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
> >> >> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
> >> >> >> your saddle?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The damned road will just have to change!
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear Andrew,
> >> >>
> >> >> That's the spirit!
> >> >>
> >> >> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
> >> >>
> >> >> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
> >> >> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
> >> >> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
> >> >> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
> >> >> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
> >> >> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
> >> >> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
> >> >> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
> >> >>
> >> >> --"Life on the Mississippi"
> >> >
> >> >Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
> >> >everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
> >> >Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
> >> >state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
> >> >to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
> >> >steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
> >> >The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
> >> >Days, and is part of the description of preparations
> >> >for a race.
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
> >> >great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
> >> >taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
> >> >which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
> >> >for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
> >> >and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
> >> >long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
> >> >forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
> >> >this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
> >> >valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
> >> >died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
> >> >rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
> >> >occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
> >> >mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
> >> >that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
> >> >years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
> >> >confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
> >> >record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
> >> >often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
> >> >rafts, and such things
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Dear Michael,
> >>
> >> Thank heavens the innocent have been saved from a credulous and
> >> misplaced trust in the use of spirit levels in the barber shops aboard
> >> the finer steam boats of the 1850's!
> >
> >Carl quoted a passage out of context, the context of racing.
> >The missing context leads the reader to infer that steamboatmen
> >were obsessive about trim.
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> Absolutely!
>
> Rec.steamboats.racing is full of similar corrections for those whose
> reading abilities leave them prey to unscrupulous confidence men, most
> of them from Herman Melville, who posts around the beginning of April.
The question remains why Carl would misrepresent Mark Twain.
--
Michael Press
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 05 Nov 2007 23:56:27
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 06:22:42 GMT, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net >
wrote:
>In article
><k9pvi3d2frnvn6s72vrb1tkcp0elj26m86@4ax.com>,
> carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:32:50 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> ><6vjvi39nn4ern0lvjot7dn4qddu5f1e84k@4ax.com>,
>> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:41:36 -0800, Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >In article
>> >> ><2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com>,
>> >> > carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> >>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>> >> >> >>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>> >> >> >>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
>> >> >> >>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>> >> >> >>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>> >> >> >>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>> >> >> >>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>> >> >> >>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>> >> >> >>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>> >> >> >>>> sure.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> "Tom Nakashima"
>> >> >> >>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>> >> >> >>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>> >> >> >>> statements.
>> >> >> >>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level first
>> >> >> >>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph, thought
>> >> >> >>> you were smarter than that.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>> >> >> >> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>> >> >> >> your saddle?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The damned road will just have to change!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dear Andrew,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That's the spirit!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
>> >> >> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
>> >> >> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
>> >> >> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
>> >> >> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
>> >> >> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
>> >> >> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
>> >> >> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --"Life on the Mississippi"
>> >> >
>> >> >Lest anyone infer that this passage represents the
>> >> >everyday state of mind of a steamboatman or is Mark
>> >> >Twain's characterization of a steamboatman's everyday
>> >> >state of mind, or is the impression Mark Twain intends
>> >> >to put across of the everyday state of mind of a
>> >> >steamboatman, let him drop that inference forthwith.
>> >> >The passage quoted above is from Chapter XVI--Racing
>> >> >Days, and is part of the description of preparations
>> >> >for a race.
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >When the "Eclipse" and the "A.L. Shotwell" ran their
>> >> >great race many years ago, it was said that pains were
>> >> >taken to scrape the gilding off the fanciful device
>> >> >which hung between the "Eclipse's" chimneys, and that
>> >> >for that one trip the captain left off his kid gloves
>> >> >and had his head shaved. Bit I always doubted these things.
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >> >There is a great difference in boats, of course. For a
>> >> >long time I was on a boat that was so slow we used to
>> >> >forget what year it was we left port in. But of course
>> >> >this was at rare intervals. Ferry-boats used to lose
>> >> >valuable trips because their passengers grew old and
>> >> >died, waitting for us to get by. This was at stlll
>> >> >rarer intervals. I had the documents for these
>> >> >occurrences, but through carelessness they have ben
>> >> >mislaid. This boat, the "John J. Roe," was so slow
>> >> >that when she finally sunk in Madrid Bend, it was five
>> >> >years before the owners heard of it. That was always a
>> >> >confusing fact to me, but it is according to the
>> >> >record, any way. She was dismally slow; still, we
>> >> >often had pretty exciting times racing with islands, and
>> >> >rafts, and such things
>> >> >_______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Dear Michael,
>> >>
>> >> Thank heavens the innocent have been saved from a credulous and
>> >> misplaced trust in the use of spirit levels in the barber shops aboard
>> >> the finer steam boats of the 1850's!
>> >
>> >Carl quoted a passage out of context, the context of racing.
>> >The missing context leads the reader to infer that steamboatmen
>> >were obsessive about trim.
>>
>> Dear Michael,
>>
>> Absolutely!
>>
>> Rec.steamboats.racing is full of similar corrections for those whose
>> reading abilities leave them prey to unscrupulous confidence men, most
>> of them from Herman Melville, who posts around the beginning of April.
>
>The question remains why Carl would misrepresent Mark Twain.
Dear Michael,
I'm positive that you've decided that is indeed a question and are
busy wrestling with it.
Keep us informed of your progress and any other fascinating
revelations that occur to you.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 13:10:46
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<carlfogel@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:2lbki3lcvtmlse9h5lvuvubuo58bdnhord@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 14:06:11 -0600, A Muzi <am@yellowjersey.org>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
>>>>>>> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
>>
>>>>> "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> Ah, got you now!!!
>>>>>> Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up
>>>>>> slightly.
>>>>>> So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
>>
>>> <tom@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>>>> I've had it that way for a long time. If I have the nose level, I
>>>>> slide forward too easily and this puts too much weight on my arms. The
>>>>> tilt keeps me from sliding forward too much, it doesn't take the
>>>>> weight. If the nose were down I'd slide right off! And to counter that
>>>>> I'd need to push back on the bars, but it wouldn't put more weight on
>>>>> the bars. More pressure and work (and discomfort) from my arms to be
>>>>> sure.
>>
>>> "Tom Nakashima"
>>>> you're shooting yourself in the foot.
>>>> With your saddle tilted and you sliding up and back only supports my
>>>> statements.
>>>> You'll have to level your saddle with a straightedge and bubble level
>>>> first
>>>> before you can prove your statements. That's pretty basic Joseph,
>>>> thought
>>>> you were smarter than that.
>>
>>carlfogel@comcast.net wrote:
>>> What happens if the road isn't level to the degree that you demand of
>>> your saddle?
>>
>>The damned road will just have to change!
>
> Dear Andrew,
>
> That's the spirit!
>
> (Sorry, couldn't resist it--see below.)
>
> "If the boat was known to make her best speed when drawing five and a
> half feet forward and five feet aft, she was carefully loaded to that
> exact figure--she wouldn't enter a dose of homoeopathic pills on her
> manifest after that. Hardly any passengers were taken, because they
> not only add weight but they never will 'trim boat.' They always run
> to the side when there is anything to see, whereas a conscientious and
> experienced steamboatman would stick to the center of the boat and
> part his hair in the middle with a spirit level."
>
> --"Life on the Mississippi"
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
That aint what happend on the Titanic.
-tom
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 02:58:44
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 9:21 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1193904623.995318.212...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 1, 6:19 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1193870869.082602.23...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > > "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > > > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > > > > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> > > > > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > > > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > > > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > > > > and thus less is on your hands.
>
> > > > > > Joseph
>
> > > > > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > > > > some negative or positive tilt in there.
>
> > > > > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > > > > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > > > > miles.
> > > > > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > > > > and
> > > > > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > > > > weight
> > > > > on the handlebars.
>
> > > > > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > > > > the
> > > > > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
>
> > > > > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > > > > degrees.
>
> > > > > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
>
> > > > > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > > > > forth.
> > > > > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > > > > -tom
>
> > > > I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> > > > put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> > > > nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> > > > level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> > > > saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> > > > doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> > > > rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> > > > saddle.
>
> > > 1) First get the body over the pedals in exactly the right place.
>
> > But that is just it, that the exact right place varies. And different
> > body types and compositions and proportions dictate what is best.
>
> Duh!
>
> > If you took a bunch of cyclists of different sizes and weights, and
> > set them up with knees exactly over the spindle, bars all at the same
> > relative position in terms of arm and body angle, and the measured the
> > rider's weight distribution you'd find that some have much more of
> > their weight on their hands than others.
>
> The idea is that when pedaling at his preferred exertion level
> his weight is well balanced over the cranks. Adjustments of
> his posture fore and aft adjust for differences in exertion level.
I see. I guess then what I meant to say was the range of where the
exertion level related position is.
Joseph
>
> > > 2) Next fit the top tube.
>
> > > If the frame is wrong, no amount of adjustment will help.
>
> > That's true. If you don't have the range of adjustment you need, the
> > frame is wrong.
>
> --
> Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 01:10:23
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 6:19 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1193870869.082602.23...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> > > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > > and thus less is on your hands.
>
> > > > Joseph
>
> > > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > > some negative or positive tilt in there.
>
> > > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > > miles.
> > > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > > and
> > > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > > weight
> > > on the handlebars.
>
> > > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > > the
> > > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
>
> > > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > > degrees.
>
> > > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
>
> > > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > > forth.
> > > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > > -tom
>
> > I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> > put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> > nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> > level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> > saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> > doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> > rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> > saddle.
>
> 1) First get the body over the pedals in exactly the right place.
But that is just it, that the exact right place varies. And different
body types and compositions and proportions dictate what is best.
If you took a bunch of cyclists of different sizes and weights, and
set them up with knees exactly over the spindle, bars all at the same
relative position in terms of arm and body angle, and the measured the
rider's weight distribution you'd find that some have much more of
their weight on their hands than others.
> 2) Next fit the top tube.
>
> If the frame is wrong, no amount of adjustment will help.
That's true. If you don't have the range of adjustment you need, the
frame is wrong.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 11:46:35
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
-snip unlevel saddle-
joseph.santaniello@gmail.com wrote:
> But that is just it, that the exact right place varies. And different
> body types and compositions and proportions dictate what is best.
And even a single rider on one bike can mover forward for high rpm and
slide back on a long climb.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 01:21:38
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article
<1193904623.995318.212730@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com >,
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 6:19 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1193870869.082602.23...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> >
> >
> >
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > >news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > > > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
> >
> > > > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > > > and thus less is on your hands.
> >
> > > > > Joseph
> >
> > > > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > > > some negative or positive tilt in there.
> >
> > > > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > > > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > > > miles.
> > > > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > > > and
> > > > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > > > weight
> > > > on the handlebars.
> >
> > > > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > > > the
> > > > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
> >
> > > > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > > > degrees.
> >
> > > > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
> >
> > > > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > > > forth.
> > > > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > > > -tom
> >
> > > I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> > > put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> > > nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> > > level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> > > saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> > > doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> > > rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> > > saddle.
> >
> > 1) First get the body over the pedals in exactly the right place.
>
> But that is just it, that the exact right place varies. And different
> body types and compositions and proportions dictate what is best.
Duh!
> If you took a bunch of cyclists of different sizes and weights, and
> set them up with knees exactly over the spindle, bars all at the same
> relative position in terms of arm and body angle, and the measured the
> rider's weight distribution you'd find that some have much more of
> their weight on their hands than others.
The idea is that when pedaling at his preferred exertion level
his weight is well balanced over the cranks. Adjustments of
his posture fore and aft adjust for differences in exertion level.
> > 2) Next fit the top tube.
> >
> > If the frame is wrong, no amount of adjustment will help.
>
> That's true. If you don't have the range of adjustment you need, the
> frame is wrong.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 01:01:44
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 7:35 am, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Oct 31, 3:47 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
>
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> > > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > > and thus less is on your hands.
>
> > > > Joseph
>
> > > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > > some negative or positive tilt in there.
>
> > > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > > miles.
> > > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > > and
> > > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > > weight
> > > on the handlebars.
>
> > > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > > the
> > > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
>
> > > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > > degrees.
>
> > > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
>
> > > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > > forth.
> > > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > > -tom
>
> > I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> > put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> > nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> > level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> > saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> > doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> > rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> > saddle.
>
> > Joseph
>
> For how long? The rider will soon relocate his or her self for or aft
> to the point where the width is deemed optimal.
>
> dkl
That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
But that is true, there is some optimal (in terms of comfort, rider
flexibility, preference, etc) seat to bar relation. Once this is
established, you can "rotate" your position backward by moving the
seat rearward and the bars up and back. This gets weight off the
hands. Just raising the bar gets weight off the hands, but may feel
too cramped, or upright.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 06:20:51
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193904104.442820.44830@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> That's why I have my nose up a tiny bit. It keeps me from sliding
> forward on my relatively far-back saddle.
> Joseph
Ah, got you now!!!
Glad you admitted you have the nose of your saddle tilted up slightly.
So did you tilt the saddle after you did the experiment?
-tom
|
| |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 06:35:48
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 31, 3:47 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > and thus less is on your hands.
>
> > > Joseph
>
> > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > some negative or positive tilt in there.
>
> > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > miles.
> > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > and
> > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > weight
> > on the handlebars.
>
> > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > the
> > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
>
> > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > degrees.
>
> > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
>
> > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > forth.
> > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > -tom
>
> I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> saddle.
>
> Joseph
For how long? The rider will soon relocate his or her self for or aft
to the point where the width is deemed optimal.
dkl
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 15:47:49
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > and thus less is on your hands.
>
> > Joseph
>
> Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> some negative or positive tilt in there.
>
> You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> miles.
> One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> and
> ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> weight
> on the handlebars.
>
> Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> the
> nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
>
> And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> degrees.
>
> Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
>
> I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> forth.
> It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> -tom
I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
saddle.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 22:19:38
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
In article
<1193870869.082602.23310@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
"joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 8:53 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> > >> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> > >> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
> >
> > > Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> > > your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> > > body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> > > and thus less is on your hands.
> >
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
> > some negative or positive tilt in there.
> >
> > You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
> > bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
> > miles.
> > One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
> > and
> > ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
> > weight
> > on the handlebars.
> >
> > Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
> > the
> > nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
> >
> > And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
> > degrees.
> >
> > Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
> >
> > I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
> > forth.
> > It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
> > -tom
>
> I'm not saying that a nose down saddle won't make you slip forward and
> put extra pressure on the hands. And indeed leveling a saddle that is
> nose down might fix the problem. But sometimes just having the saddle
> level or a little nose up isn't enough, and in those cases moving the
> saddle back may help. But as Paul points out, moving the saddle
> doesn't mean you are necessaily changing the riding position, as the
> rider might end up just sitting (uncomfortably) on the nose of the
> saddle.
1) First get the body over the pedals in exactly the right place.
2) Next fit the top tube.
If the frame is wrong, no amount of adjustment will help.
--
Michael Press
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 17:18:55
From: DougC
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Tom Nakashima wrote:
> There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
> handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some cyclist
> thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
> believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By leaning,
> it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the dropped bar, but
> with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was said that by leaning on the
> bars, one could flip over the bars by having too lean.
Too lean a what? You've lost me here...
Do you mean just having one's hands slip off the bars, such as from
being sweaty / tired / inattentive?
> I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous as
> riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I have the
> nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the weight of my hands off
> the handlebars. The lean weight would be close to zero. I do this to lessen
> the fatigue in the shoulders and wrist on long rides.
As I remember it, small changes tend to make small differences in
results. A lot of accessories I bought to "lessen fatigue" on the
bicycles I rode 15 years ago look suspiciously like the stuff they're
selling today.
> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride have sore
> shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the handlebars. Many times
> it's has to do with the nose of the saddle being tilted down, which puts
> quite a bit of weight on the bars.
> By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilited up, those
> aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous as leaning on
> the handlebars.
Since about 2004 I have only owned recumbent bikes, so my knowledge of
riding pain is mostly from memory.
It didn't cross my mind much back in the day--but I tend to feel (now)
that the most dangerous aspect of riding an upright bike long distances
is the tendency to get a tired neck and mostly stare at the road five
feet in front of your front tire.
~
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 12:25:16
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
and thus less is on your hands.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 12:53:25
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1193858716.137354.131320@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 31, 2:40 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>> The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
>> nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>
> Sure it does. As long as your butt moves fore or aft with it. Since
> your feet are in the same place, moving your butt and thus your whole
> body rearward, moves your CG rearward so more weight is on your butt,
> and thus less is on your hands.
>
> Joseph
>
Take a straightedge and bubble level to your saddle, you probably have
some negative or positive tilt in there.
You should also do the experiment, while you have the straightedge and
bubble level out. On a level road tilt the nose down 5 degrees and ride 2
miles.
One mile up and one mile back to the start, then tilt the nose up 5 degrees
and
ride, repeat the miles. You'll see there is a difference of the amount of
weight
on the handlebars.
Or better yet, if you don't think tilt of the saddle has any effect, tilt
the
nose of the saddle -20 degrees and ride, and then +20 degrees.
And if you still not convinced, tilt the nose of the saddle -45 & + 45
degrees.
Then repeat the experiment, only this time ride with no hands.
I already did your experiment with the saddle level and sliding back and
forth.
It has no effect on the load of the handlebars, unless I do the Pantani.
-tom
|
| | | |
Date: 01 Nov 2007 21:57:45
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Nov 1, 2:39 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid > wrote:
> Per Art Harris:
>
> >Also, the business about using a level to set saddle tilt can be
> >deceiving depending on the shape of the saddle.
>
> And, in the case of sus bikes, suspension sag...
> --
> PeteCresswell
troublemaker
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 03:57:30
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 30, 11:38 pm, Paul Kopit <pko...@att.net > wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:30:02 -0700, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
>
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The fore-aft position of the saddle, and the position of the bars is
> >what determines how much weight is carried by the hands. The further
> >back the saddle is relative to the BB the more weight that ends up on
> >the seat, and thus less on the hands.
>
> I don't think so. If you think of a modern racing type saddle, it is
> more like a rail than a triangulated seat. You'll slide back and
> forth on the seat depending on the grade of the road and where you
> push yourself. You might want to spin fast and you'll pull yourself
> forward to strike your legs straight down.
>
> Fore and aft position of saddle only determines where the saddle
> positions your sit bones on level grade.
Ok, I agree to an extent. It isn't the seat placement that matters,
it's the butt placement. And because seats are sort of like a rail
(even my Rolls!) and one can slide fore and aft, I have the nose up a
bit to keep from sliding forward so easily. This keeps my butt back to
keep some weight off my hands.
Joseph
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 03:26:05
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 30, 9:30 pm, doug.lan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
> > > already knows.
>
> > > Bill "facts be damned" S.
>
> Read Bill's post again.
I read it again. It's still wrong.
- Frank Krygowski
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 01:30:31
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 30, 5:42 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com >
wrote:
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > {Apparently, JB wrote:}
>
> >>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
> >>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
> >>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
> >>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
> >>> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
> >> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh,
> >> what the heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop,
> >> so can I say "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck &
> >> shoulder tension. And yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride
> >> with no-hands, but typically the rider with the saddle set up this
> >> way isn't doing a whole lot of that. Riding no-hands, which comes
> >> very easily to most of us here, is something many find very difficult
> >> to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes it more difficult
> >> is probably not even noticed (because they don't even try).
>
> >> You should try the experiment yourself.
>
> > Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
> > already knows. Bill "facts be damned" S.
>
> This is not true. I've known Jobst for quite a while, and there have been
> many times when something puzzled him so he performed an experiment to
> figure something out. For those who believe that nothing from the past two
> decades represents an improvement in cycling, please note his endorsement of
> the threadless headset. Things on the 'net tend to be black & white and
> overly strident; when someone disagrees with something, the assumption is
> that they just don't understand what you're saying, so you say it again...
> and again... and again... hopefully a bit differently so that maybe it
> communicates better at some point. That tends to make someone look more
> self-absorbed and resistant to the idea of an alternative answer than they
> may be in real life.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> "Bill Sornson" <as...@ask.me> wrote in message
>
> news:4727c5f7$0$11489$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > {Apparently, JB wrote:}
>
> >>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
> >>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
> >>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
> >>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
> >>> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
> >> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh,
> >> what the heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop,
> >> so can I say "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck &
> >> shoulder tension. And yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride
> >> with no-hands, but typically the rider with the saddle set up this
> >> way isn't doing a whole lot of that. Riding no-hands, which comes
> >> very easily to most of us here, is something many find very difficult
> >> to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes it more difficult
> >> is probably not even noticed (because they don't even try).
>
> >> You should try the experiment yourself.
>
> > Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
> > already knows.
>
> > Bill "facts be damned" S.
Read Bill's post again.
|
| |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 01:29:16
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 30, 12:30 pm, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
<joseph.santanie...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 6:08 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
> > handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some cyclist
> > thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
> > believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By leaning,
> > it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the dropped bar, but
> > with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was said that by leaning on the
> > bars, one could flip over the bars by having too lean.
>
> > I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous as
> > riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I have the
> > nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the weight of my hands off
> > the handlebars. The lean weight would be close to zero. I do this to lessen
> > the fatigue in the shoulders and wrist on long rides.
>
> > I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride have sore
> > shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the handlebars. Many times
> > it's has to do with the nose of the saddle being tilted down, which puts
> > quite a bit of weight on the bars.
> > By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilited up, those
> > aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous as leaning on
> > the handlebars.
> > -tom
>
> The fore-aft position of the saddle, and the position of the bars is
> what determines how much weight is carried by the hands. The further
> back the saddle is relative to the BB the more weight that ends up on
> the seat, and thus less on the hands.
>
> If you stand up and bend over at the waist your butt moves backward to
> keep balance. Standing, your butt is right over your feet, bent over
> at a bike-riding like angle, your butt is some distance behind your
> feet. If you support your uppe rbody with your hands on a table, you
> can have your butt further forward. Just like on a bike, the further
> forward your butt is, th emore your hands need to support.
>
> I ride with my saddle further back than most the people I ride with,
> and I also have the nose tilted up a tiny bit. This helps keep my butt
> from slipping forward on the seat. No weight is on the tip of the
> saddle, so it isn't helping keep weigt off the bars, it's just helping
> keep me in place.
Contradictory. If it's helping keep from slipping forward, it's
taking weight.
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 12:30:02
From: joseph.santaniello@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Oct 30, 6:08 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <t...@slac.stanford.edu > wrote:
> There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
> handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some cyclist
> thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
> believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By leaning,
> it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the dropped bar, but
> with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was said that by leaning on the
> bars, one could flip over the bars by having too lean.
>
> I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous as
> riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I have the
> nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the weight of my hands off
> the handlebars. The lean weight would be close to zero. I do this to lessen
> the fatigue in the shoulders and wrist on long rides.
>
> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride have sore
> shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the handlebars. Many times
> it's has to do with the nose of the saddle being tilted down, which puts
> quite a bit of weight on the bars.
> By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilited up, those
> aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous as leaning on
> the handlebars.
> -tom
The fore-aft position of the saddle, and the position of the bars is
what determines how much weight is carried by the hands. The further
back the saddle is relative to the BB the more weight that ends up on
the seat, and thus less on the hands.
If you stand up and bend over at the waist your butt moves backward to
keep balance. Standing, your butt is right over your feet, bent over
at a bike-riding like angle, your butt is some distance behind your
feet. If you support your uppe rbody with your hands on a table, you
can have your butt further forward. Just like on a bike, the further
forward your butt is, th emore your hands need to support.
I ride with my saddle further back than most the people I ride with,
and I also have the nose tilted up a tiny bit. This helps keep my butt
from slipping forward on the seat. No weight is on the tip of the
saddle, so it isn't helping keep weigt off the bars, it's just helping
keep me in place.
Joseph
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 22:38:12
From: Paul Kopit
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:30:02 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
<joseph.santaniello@gmail.com > wrote:
>The fore-aft position of the saddle, and the position of the bars is
>what determines how much weight is carried by the hands. The further
>back the saddle is relative to the BB the more weight that ends up on
>the seat, and thus less on the hands.
I don't think so. If you think of a modern racing type saddle, it is
more like a rail than a triangulated seat. You'll slide back and
forth on the seat depending on the grade of the road and where you
push yourself. You might want to spin fast and you'll pull yourself
forward to strike your legs straight down.
Fore and aft position of saddle only determines where the saddle
positions your sit bones on level grade.
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 23:33:37
From: Bill
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
"Paul Kopit" <pkopit@att.net > wrote in message
news:pdcfi3po7daj7hs8fk2j7roglk28pg01n1@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:30:02 -0700, "joseph.santaniello@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santaniello@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >The fore-aft position of the saddle, and the position of the bars is
> >what determines how much weight is carried by the hands. The further
> >back the saddle is relative to the BB the more weight that ends up on
> >the seat, and thus less on the hands.
>
> I don't think so. If you think of a modern racing type saddle, it is
> more like a rail than a triangulated seat. You'll slide back and
> forth on the seat depending on the grade of the road and where you
> push yourself. You might want to spin fast and you'll pull yourself
> forward to strike your legs straight down.
>
> Fore and aft position of saddle only determines where the saddle
> positions your sit bones on level grade.
I'm with Joseph on this one. Moving the butt back takes the load off of
shoulders and arms. Finding a balanced location for your behind is the start
of a comfortable fit. For more than you may want to know about the concept
go to:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html for his fine presentation of Keith
Bontrager's "Myth of "KOPS", An Alternative Method of Bike Fit"
Bill
|
| |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 18:52:14
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Tom Nakashima writes:
> There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
> handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some
> cyclist thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
> believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By
> leaning, it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the
> dropped bar, but with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was
> said that by leaning on the bars, one could flip over the bars by
> having too lean.
> I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous
> as riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I
> have the nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the
> weight of my hands off the handlebars. The lean weight would be
> close to zero. I do this to lessen the fatigue in the shoulders and
> wrist on long rides.
The angle of the seat has no bearing on the load one places on the
bars when leaning forward. I think that should not be point in
assessing ones leaning on the tops of the bars without grasping them.
If one is leaning on the bars and a bump in the road jogs the bars up
and rearward, the hands easily slide off the front and before the
rider can make a correction, he has lost control, regardless of
whether he slides forward off the saddle. Just the same, a tilt in
saddle position is not a restraint against falling forward.
Riders have caught themselves with their thumbs hooked on the brake
cables when this occurred while riding on top of the hoods. That
option no longer appears with today's brake levers but I have had the
experience and observed several others do the same over the years.
> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the saddle
> being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the bars.
These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
I think you are hypothesizing that. Saddle pointing up usually means
the saddle is too low and conversely too high when pointing down. It
is a usual adaptation made without realizing the saddle height is the
problem.
> By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilted up,
> those aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous
> as leaning on the handlebars.
I don't think you'll get many takers for that recipe. Saddles are
generally positioned to have the "saddle" shape horizontal as you can
see from the many professional rider's bicycles. That idea is riding
against a large headwind.
Jobst Brandt
|
| | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 13:00:40
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the saddle
>> being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the bars.
>
> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
You are correct that it doesn't change the angle of your head or shoulders,
but tilting the saddle nose-down slides you forward, towards the bars. You
end up maintaining position on the saddle by pushing back with your arms,
which causes tension in your neck & shoulders. When a customer comes in
complaining of neck & shoulder pain, the first thing we ask is if they have
their saddle tilted down at the nose. Invariably that's the case. Level the
saddle and presto, the pain goes away. Customers think I can work miracles
for that reason alone, but there's no miracle involved, just common sense.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:47277d5e$0$14082$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Tom Nakashima writes:
>
>> There was a discussion in another thread about leaning on the
>> handlebars while riding as opposed to riding with no-hands. Some
>> cyclist thought that leaning on the bars was equal and in some ways
>> believed to be even more dangerous than riding with no hands. By
>> leaning, it was thought to have your hands on the top portion of the
>> dropped bar, but with the thumbs not fully wrapped around. It was
>> said that by leaning on the bars, one could flip over the bars by
>> having too lean.
>
>> I'll have to disagree with the leaning on the bar as being dangerous
>> as riding with no hands. At least in my case, because on my bike I
>> have the nose of my saddle tilted slightly up, which takes the
>> weight of my hands off the handlebars. The lean weight would be
>> close to zero. I do this to lessen the fatigue in the shoulders and
>> wrist on long rides.
>
> The angle of the seat has no bearing on the load one places on the
> bars when leaning forward. I think that should not be point in
> assessing ones leaning on the tops of the bars without grasping them.
> If one is leaning on the bars and a bump in the road jogs the bars up
> and rearward, the hands easily slide off the front and before the
> rider can make a correction, he has lost control, regardless of
> whether he slides forward off the saddle. Just the same, a tilt in
> saddle position is not a restraint against falling forward.
>
> Riders have caught themselves with their thumbs hooked on the brake
> cables when this occurred while riding on top of the hoods. That
> option no longer appears with today's brake levers but I have had the
> experience and observed several others do the same over the years.
>
>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the saddle
>> being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the bars.
>
> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
>
> I think you are hypothesizing that. Saddle pointing up usually means
> the saddle is too low and conversely too high when pointing down. It
> is a usual adaptation made without realizing the saddle height is the
> problem.
>
>> By making a slight adjustment of the nose of the saddle tilted up,
>> those aches and pains could disappear. And perhaps less dangerous
>> as leaning on the handlebars.
>
> I don't think you'll get many takers for that recipe. Saddles are
> generally positioned to have the "saddle" shape horizontal as you can
> see from the many professional rider's bicycles. That idea is riding
> against a large headwind.
>
> Jobst Brandt
|
| | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 13:43:16
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
>>> Tom Nakashima writes:
>>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the saddle
>>> being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the bars.
> >jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> >news:47277d5e$0$14082$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
>> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote in message
news:J3MVi.3139$Bk.1631@newssvr19.news.prodigy.net...
> You are correct that it doesn't change the angle of your head or
> shoulders, but tilting the saddle nose-down slides you forward, towards
> the bars. You end up maintaining position on the saddle by pushing back
> with your arms, which causes tension in your neck & shoulders. When a
> customer comes in complaining of neck & shoulder pain, the first thing we
> ask is if they have their saddle tilted down at the nose. Invariably
> that's the case. Level the saddle and presto, the pain goes away.
> Customers think I can work miracles for that reason alone, but there's no
> miracle involved, just common sense.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Thanks Mike for clearing that up.
Yes, common sense indeed.
I'm quite surprised how many cyclist ride with the nose of the saddle tilted
down,
then complain about neck and shoulder pain. Experienced cyclist too.
I can think of only one case where a gal in our club complained of shoulder
pain
in the middle of our ride. I suggested I could either level the saddle or
tilt the nose up
slightly. We first started with the nose slightly tilted up. It did take
the pressure off her shoulders, but it caused a discomfort in her crouch
area. So after a few miles I leveled the saddle for her, and it still
caused a bit of discomfort. I ended up putting the saddle back the way she
had it with the nose slightly tilted down to finish the ride.
When she got home, we talked about different saddles, like the Terry. She
ended up with a Woman's Terry Butterfly, which Terry lend her to try. My
friend ended up buying it, and we got to play with tilt in the saddle. We
were finally able to tilt the nose of the saddle up slightly and now she has
comfort in taking pressure off the shoulders and no discomfort in her crouch
area.
-tom
|
| | | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 21:20:56
From:
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
Tom Nakashima writes:
>>>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>>>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>>>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the
>>>> saddle being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the
>>>> bars.
>>> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
>>> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
>> You are correct that it doesn't change the angle of your head or
>> shoulders, but tilting the saddle nose-down slides you forward,
>> towards the bars. You end up maintaining position on the saddle by
>> pushing back with your arms, which causes tension in your neck &
>> shoulders. When a customer comes in complaining of neck & shoulder
>> pain, the first thing we ask is if they have their saddle tilted
>> down at the nose. Invariably that's the case. Level the saddle
>> and presto, the pain goes away. Customers think I can work
>> miracles for that reason alone, but there's no miracle involved,
>> just common sense.
> Thanks Mike for clearing that up.
> Yes, common sense indeed.
You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
forward dismount from the saddle.
> I'm quite surprised how many cyclist ride with the nose of the
> saddle tilted down, then complain about neck and shoulder pain.
> Experienced cyclist too.
They are new riders who have a dread of damage to sexual
appurtenances.
> I can think of only one case where a gal in our club complained of
> shoulder pain in the middle of our ride. I suggested I could either
> level the saddle or tilt the nose up slightly. We first started
> with the nose slightly tilted up. It did take the pressure off her
> shoulders, but it caused a discomfort in her crouch area. So after
> a few miles I leveled the saddle for her, and it still caused a bit
> of discomfort. I ended up putting the saddle back the way she had
> it with the nose slightly tilted down to finish the ride.
Dont crouch down with your crotch in the wrong position!
> When she got home, we talked about different saddles, like the
> Terry. She ended up with a Woman's Terry Butterfly, which Terry
> lend her to try. My friend ended up buying it, and we got to play
> with tilt in the saddle. We were finally able to tilt the nose of
> the saddle up slightly and now she has comfort in taking pressure
> off the shoulders and no discomfort in her crouch area.
You WHAT!
Jobst Brandt
|
| | | | | |
Date: 31 Oct 2007 06:40:53
From: Tom Nakashima
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:4727a038$0$14093$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Tom Nakashima writes:
>
>>>>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>>>>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>>>>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the
>>>>> saddle being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the
>>>>> bars.
>
>>>> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
>>>> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
>
>>> You are correct that it doesn't change the angle of your head or
>>> shoulders, but tilting the saddle nose-down slides you forward,
>>> towards the bars. You end up maintaining position on the saddle by
>>> pushing back with your arms, which causes tension in your neck &
>>> shoulders. When a customer comes in complaining of neck & shoulder
>>> pain, the first thing we ask is if they have their saddle tilted
>>> down at the nose. Invariably that's the case. Level the saddle
>>> and presto, the pain goes away. Customers think I can work
>>> miracles for that reason alone, but there's no miracle involved,
>>> just common sense.
>
>> Thanks Mike for clearing that up.
>
>> Yes, common sense indeed.
>
> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
> forward dismount from the saddle.
I'll have to agree with Mike. On a level stretch of road, a few degrees of
downward tilt of the saddle nose is all it takes to put force on the
handlebars. Your head and shoulders pivots very little, if not any.
You should indeed experiment with this, you might learn something new.
While you have the nose tilted down, try riding with no hands on the same
stretch of level road (you don't have to ride 15 miles with your hands in
your pocket either).
Then tilt the nose up the same amount of degrees and ride with no hands.
You'll find a huge difference.
Saddle length is roughly 10.5-11.0" long, for the experiment try 5 degrees
of tilt on the nose of the saddle in both negative and positive degrees.
The fore and aft slide adjustment of the saddle in the level position has
nothing to do with your weight on the handlebars.
>> I'm quite surprised how many cyclist ride with the nose of the
>> saddle tilted down, then complain about neck and shoulder pain.
>> Experienced cyclist too.
>
> They are new riders who have a dread of damage to sexual
> appurtenances.
And a lot has to do with having the saddle not adjusted properly.
Women tend to have more of this problem than men.
>
>> I can think of only one case where a gal in our club complained of
>> shoulder pain in the middle of our ride. I suggested I could either
>> level the saddle or tilt the nose up slightly. We first started
>> with the nose slightly tilted up. It did take the pressure off her
>> shoulders, but it caused a discomfort in her crouch area. So after
>> a few miles I leveled the saddle for her, and it still caused a bit
>> of discomfort. I ended up putting the saddle back the way she had
>> it with the nose slightly tilted down to finish the ride.
>
> Dont crouch down with your crotch in the wrong position!
>
>> When she got home, we talked about different saddles, like the
>> Terry. She ended up with a Woman's Terry Butterfly, which Terry
>> lend her to try. My friend ended up buying it, and we got to play
>> with tilt in the saddle. We were finally able to tilt the nose of
>> the saddle up slightly and now she has comfort in taking pressure
>> off the shoulders and no discomfort in her crouch area.
> You WHAT!
I was just as surprised as you JB when discussing this with a few women
cyclist, but women have discomfort down there from riding. It's actually a
huge problem. We had one gal cramp-up so bad on a ride that I had to ride
back to my car and pick her up, she just could not ride.
-tom
|
| | | | | |
Date: 30 Oct 2007 22:21:17
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
|
> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
> forward dismount from the saddle.
Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh, what the
heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop, so can I say
"down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck & shoulder tension. And
yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride with no-hands, but typically
the rider with the saddle set up this way isn't doing a whole lot of that.
Riding no-hands, which comes very easily to most of us here, is something
many find very difficult to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes
it more difficult is probably not even noticed (because they don't even
try).
You should try the experiment yourself.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
<jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org > wrote in message
news:4727a038$0$14093$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> Tom Nakashima writes:
>
>>>>> I have seen riders after the 1/2 way point on a 80-100 mile ride
>>>>> have sore shoulders, wrist, and necks due to leaning on the
>>>>> handlebars. Many times it's has to do with the nose of the
>>>>> saddle being tilted down, which puts quite a bit of weight on the
>>>>> bars.
>
>>>> These riders may have their bars too low but saddle tilt does not
>>>> alter the load on the bars or the angle of the head and shoulders.
>
>>> You are correct that it doesn't change the angle of your head or
>>> shoulders, but tilting the saddle nose-down slides you forward,
>>> towards the bars. You end up maintaining position on the saddle by
>>> pushing back with your arms, which causes tension in your neck &
>>> shoulders. When a customer comes in complaining of neck & shoulder
>>> pain, the first thing we ask is if they have their saddle tilted
>>> down at the nose. Invariably that's the case. Level the saddle
>>> and presto, the pain goes away. Customers think I can work
>>> miracles for that reason alone, but there's no miracle involved,
>>> just common sense.
>
>> Thanks Mike for clearing that up.
>
>> Yes, common sense indeed.
>
> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
>> I'm quite surprised how many cyclist ride with the nose of the
>> saddle tilted down, then complain about neck and shoulder pain.
>> Experienced cyclist too.
>
> They are new riders who have a dread of damage to sexual
> appurtenances.
>
>> I can think of only one case where a gal in our club complained of
>> shoulder pain in the middle of our ride. I suggested I could either
>> level the saddle or tilt the nose up slightly. We first started
>> with the nose slightly tilted up. It did take the pressure off her
>> shoulders, but it caused a discomfort in her crouch area. So after
>> a few miles I leveled the saddle for her, and it still caused a bit
>> of discomfort. I ended up putting the saddle back the way she had
>> it with the nose slightly tilted down to finish the ride.
>
> Dont crouch down with your crotch in the wrong position!
>
>> When she got home, we talked about different saddles, like the
>> Terry. She ended up with a Woman's Terry Butterfly, which Terry
>> lend her to try. My friend ended up buying it, and we got to play
>> with tilt in the saddle. We were finally able to tilt the nose of
>> the saddle up slightly and now she has comfort in taking pressure
>> off the shoulders and no discomfort in her crouch area.
>
> You WHAT!
>
> Jobst Brandt
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Date: 31 Oct 2007 04:30:24
From: Steve Gravrock
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
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On 2007-10-30, Mike Jacoubowsky <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com > wrote:
>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
>> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh, what the
> heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop, so can I say
> "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck & shoulder tension.
That's pretty much been my experience. I don't normally get neck and
shoulder tension but excess pressure on the hands *is* an issue. Getting
the part of the saddle that I sit on as close to level as possible helps
a lot with that, as does setting the saddle back a bit from KOPS. The
problem is that a lot of saddles have a pronounced slope toward the
back, which means that with the bulk of the saddle level the nose is
angled sharply up. Add an arched cross section and lots of padding, like
the horrible Bontrager saddles that came on my last two bikes, and I
just can't win.
If it had just slightly more padding, this would be my all time favorite
saddle: <http://www.cyclingreviews.com/images/titecsaddle.jpg >. It's
flat from side to side, very nearly flat from front to back, the right
width for me, and everyone else hates them so they're practically free
out of the LBS's take-off bin.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 16:59:23
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
{Apparently, JB wrote:}
>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
>> forward dismount from the saddle.
> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh,
> what the heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop,
> so can I say "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck &
> shoulder tension. And yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride
> with no-hands, but typically the rider with the saddle set up this
> way isn't doing a whole lot of that. Riding no-hands, which comes
> very easily to most of us here, is something many find very difficult
> to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes it more difficult
> is probably not even noticed (because they don't even try).
>
> You should try the experiment yourself.
Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he already
knows.
Bill "facts be damned" S.
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 17:42:01
From: Mike Jacoubowsky
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
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> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> {Apparently, JB wrote:}
>
>>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
>>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
>>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
>>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
>>> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
>> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh,
>> what the heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop,
>> so can I say "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck &
>> shoulder tension. And yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride
>> with no-hands, but typically the rider with the saddle set up this
>> way isn't doing a whole lot of that. Riding no-hands, which comes
>> very easily to most of us here, is something many find very difficult
>> to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes it more difficult
>> is probably not even noticed (because they don't even try).
>>
>> You should try the experiment yourself.
>
> Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
> already knows. Bill "facts be damned" S.
This is not true. I've known Jobst for quite a while, and there have been
many times when something puzzled him so he performed an experiment to
figure something out. For those who believe that nothing from the past two
decades represents an improvement in cycling, please note his endorsement of
the threadless headset. Things on the 'net tend to be black & white and
overly strident; when someone disagrees with something, the assumption is
that they just don't understand what you're saying, so you say it again...
and again... and again... hopefully a bit differently so that maybe it
communicates better at some point. That tends to make someone look more
self-absorbed and resistant to the idea of an alternative answer than they
may be in real life.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Bill Sornson" <askme@ask.me > wrote in message
news:4727c5f7$0$11489$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> {Apparently, JB wrote:}
>
>>> You'd have to have a saddle tilted more than a few degrees to get any
>>> significant forward force on the hands compared to the weight of the
>>> head and torso that pivots forward with hands on the top of the bars.
>>> If the saddle were tilte that much, riding no-hands would cause a
>>> forward dismount from the saddle.
>
>> Jobst: Evidently you'd be surprised at how little down-angle (oh,
>> what the heck, we use bubble levels for setting seats up at the shop,
>> so can I say "down bubble"?) it takes to create a lot of neck &
>> shoulder tension. And yes, it *does* make it very dificult to ride
>> with no-hands, but typically the rider with the saddle set up this
>> way isn't doing a whole lot of that. Riding no-hands, which comes
>> very easily to most of us here, is something many find very difficult
>> to do, so the fact that a nosed-down saddle makes it more difficult
>> is probably not even noticed (because they don't even try).
>>
>> You should try the experiment yourself.
>
> Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
> already knows.
>
> Bill "facts be damned" S.
>
>
>
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Date: 30 Oct 2007 21:49:40
From: Bill Sornson
Subject: Re: Leaning on the handlebars vs. no hands
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Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
{I commented:}
>> Jobst has absolutely no interest in learning anything about what he
>> already knows. Bill "facts be damned" S.
> This is not true. I've known Jobst for quite a while, and there have
> been many times when something puzzled him so he performed an
> experiment to figure something out.
Oh, I agree completely with that. But when he thinks he /knows/ something
(like, say, that 9-11 was an inside job), then cold hard facts are of no use
to him whatsoever.
Bill "a distinction with a big difference" S.
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