MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

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Date: 25 May 2007 18:30:30
From: almost_fast@yahoo.com
Subject: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805

Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or since
it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?

Thanks in advance.

Date: 29 May 2007 19:07:21
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 29, 9:00 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org > wrote:
> -snip rim discussion-
>
> * * Chas wrote:
> > Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> > rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I racked
> up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.
> --

How much did you weigh at that time? I believe **Chas said he was
170-180 at that point in time.

Date: 29 May 2007 22:16:11
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On May 29, 9:00 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> -snip rim discussion-
>>
>> * * Chas wrote:
>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>> What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I racked
>> up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.
>> --
>
> How much did you weigh at that time? I believe **Chas said he was
> 170-180 at that point in time.
>
roughly the same - 160 in my twenties

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 29 May 2007 14:04:25
From: andresmuro@aol.com
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 29, 7:09 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "jim beam" <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> >news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >> * * Chas wrote:
> >>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> > message
> >>>news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>>>news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> >>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> >>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
> >>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> >>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>
> >>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>
> >>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
> >>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
> > Campy
> >>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
> > 19mm)
> >>> tires, very well made wheels.
>
> >>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
> >>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
> > had
> >>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
> > hit
> >>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>
> >>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
> > then I
> >>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>
> >>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> >>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> >>> Chas.
>
> >> what was the spoke tension?
>
> > When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
>
> but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
> tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
> tension magnitude.
>
> > These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
>
> this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
>
> > I think
> > that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the problem.
>
> radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
> fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
>
>
>
> > I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or a
> > rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of lubricant on
> > the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
> > overall (closer with better rims).
>
> but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know
> the spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless
> the rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is
> already /way/ too high.
>
> bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
> excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
> to cause that.

I personally could care less about the rim brand. I am no advocate of
any particular brand. However, it is kind of a pain to have a rim that
you cannot true by hand because you need to worry about the rim
cracking. It is nice to tighten the spokes and get a lot of tension.

Andres

Date: 29 May 2007 05:49:14
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 28, 9:03 pm, landotter <landot...@gmail.com > wrote:
> On May 27, 9:50 am, Victor Kan <victor....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > One problem is that the brake surface is kinda low profile so the pads
> > that fit fully on my older AT400 rim with room to spare now have just
> > barely enough if I have the pads exactly right, and after some more
> > pad wear, they might overhang and need adjustment or replacement.
>
> If they start to overhang, just shave them back down with a little box
> plane...

Yep, that's part of what I meant by "adjustment", and I've done it on
my
Kool Stop Salmons on another rim with a low brake surface profile.

Date: 28 May 2007 20:24:24
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 10:14 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
> >news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> > message
> >>>news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> > wrote:
> >>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> In article
> >>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>> ,
> >>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> >>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> >>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
> >>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> >>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>
> >> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>
> > Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
> > friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself. Campy
> > Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or 19mm)
> > tires, very well made wheels.
>
> > I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
> > started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot had
> > several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I hit
> > these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>
> > I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride then I
> > saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>
> > Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> > rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> > Chas.
>
> what was the spoke tension?

Higher than the rim could bear. ;-)

Date: 28 May 2007 18:58:13
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
> > > Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> > > > ,
> > > > Ozark Bicycle
> > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > When did MA-2s become great????
> > > > With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> > > > box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> > > > unmachined sidewall rims.
>
> > > I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>
> > > <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>
> > Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> > 36H. Hmmmmm....
>
> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>

That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?

Date: 28 May 2007 20:08:10
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
message
> >
> > news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
wrote:
> > > > Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> > > > > ,
> > > > > Ozark Bicycle
> > > > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > > > When did MA-2s become great????
> > > > > With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> > > > > box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> > > > > unmachined sidewall rims.
> >
> > > > I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >
> > > > <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >
> > > Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> > > 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >
> > That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
> >
>
> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>

Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself. Campy
Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or 19mm)
tires, very well made wheels.

I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot had
several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I hit
these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.

I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride then I
saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.

Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.

Chas.

Date: 29 May 2007 21:00:39
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

-snip rim discussion-
* * Chas wrote:
> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.

What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I racked
up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 29 May 2007 21:21:35
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:135pmmk3o22an9d@corp.supernews.com...
> -snip rim discussion-
> * * Chas wrote:
> > Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> > rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I racked
> up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"great rim, IMHO" Great for you skinny Italian guys.... ;-)

I saw one or two Fiame yellow label Strada rims fail from cracking at the
eyelets and the spokes pulling out. These where raced hard by heavier
riders. I still have 1 Yellow Label rim left so it may have happened to me
too, I don't remember. At 175 I decided that I weighed too much to ride
yellow labels and switched to stronger, heavier SuperChampion rims.

Chas.

Date: 29 May 2007 23:29:38
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

>> -snip rim discussion-

>> * * Chas wrote:
>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.

> "A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote
>> What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I racked
>> up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.

* * Chas wrote:
> "great rim, IMHO" Great for you skinny Italian guys.... ;-)
> I saw one or two Fiame yellow label Strada rims fail from cracking at the
> eyelets and the spokes pulling out. These where raced hard by heavier
> riders. I still have 1 Yellow Label rim left so it may have happened to me
> too, I don't remember. At 175 I decided that I weighed too much to ride
> yellow labels and switched to stronger, heavier SuperChampion rims.

The SC Arc en Ciel is a tad heavier, the SC Record du Monde a bit
lighter than a 310 Yellow. SC Medaille d'Or seriously less at about
250g. The SC Competition is chunky like a Red in the upper 300s,
bulletproof.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 30 May 2007 02:19:33
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:135pve01p6p6ia6@corp.supernews.com...
> >> -snip rim discussion-
>
> >> * * Chas wrote:
> >>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow
label
> >>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> > "A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote
> >> What sort of problems with a Fiamme Yellow ? Pista or Strada? I
racked
> >> up some high mileage on 32h Yellows in my youth, great rim, IMHO.
>
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "great rim, IMHO" Great for you skinny Italian guys.... ;-)
> > I saw one or two Fiame yellow label Strada rims fail from cracking at
the
> > eyelets and the spokes pulling out. These where raced hard by heavier
> > riders. I still have 1 Yellow Label rim left so it may have happened
to me
> > too, I don't remember. At 175 I decided that I weighed too much to
ride
> > yellow labels and switched to stronger, heavier SuperChampion rims.
>
> The SC Arc en Ciel is a tad heavier, the SC Record du Monde a bit
> lighter than a 310 Yellow. SC Medaille d'Or seriously less at about
> 250g. The SC Competition is chunky like a Red in the upper 300s,
> bulletproof.
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I always thought that Yellow Labels were 260g?

Arc en Ciels were always my favorites. Never had a problem with one of
them.

Chas.

Date: 28 May 2007 20:14:15
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

* * Chas wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> message
>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> wrote:
>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>>>
>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>>
>
> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself. Campy
> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or 19mm)
> tires, very well made wheels.
>
> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot had
> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I hit
> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>
> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride then I
> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>
> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>
> Chas.
>
>
>
what was the spoke tension?

Date: 29 May 2007 01:09:58
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
message
> > news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> > message
> >>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> > wrote:
> >>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> In article
> >>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>> ,
> >>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> >>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> >>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
> >>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> >>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
> >>>
> >> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
> >>
> >
> > Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
> > friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
Campy
> > Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
19mm)
> > tires, very well made wheels.
> >
> > I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
> > started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
had
> > several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
hit
> > these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
> >
> > I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
then I
> > saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
> >
> > Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
> > rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
> >
> > Chas.
> >
> >
> >
> what was the spoke tension?

When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking. I think
that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the problem.

I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or a
rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of lubricant on
the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
overall (closer with better rims).

Chas.

Date: 29 May 2007 06:09:54
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

* * Chas wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> * * Chas wrote:
>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> message
>>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>> message
>>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
>>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
>>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>>>>>
>>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>>>>
>>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
>>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
> Campy
>>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
> 19mm)
>>> tires, very well made wheels.
>>>
>>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
>>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
> had
>>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
> hit
>>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>>>
>>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
> then I
>>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>>>
>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>>>
>>> Chas.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> what was the spoke tension?
>
> When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.

but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
tension magnitude.

> These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.

this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.

> I think
> that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the problem.

radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.

>
> I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or a
> rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of lubricant on
> the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
> overall (closer with better rims).

but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know
the spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless
the rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is
already /way/ too high.

bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
to cause that.

Date: 29 May 2007 10:38:10
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:1q-dnVB0DZy6u8HbnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>* * Chas wrote:
>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>> news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>> * * Chas wrote:
>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>> message
>>>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>>> message
>>>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
>>>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>>>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>>>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>>>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>>>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
>>>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>>>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>>>>>
>>>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
>>>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
>> Campy
>>>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
>> 19mm)
>>>> tires, very well made wheels.
>>>>
>>>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
>>>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
>> had
>>>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
>> hit
>>>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>>>>
>>>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
>> then I
>>>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
>>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>>>>
>>>> Chas.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> what was the spoke tension?
>>
>> When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
>
> but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
> tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
> tension magnitude.
>
>> These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
>
> this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
>
>> I think
>> that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the
>> problem.
>
> radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
> fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
>
>>
>> I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or a
>> rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of lubricant
>> on
>> the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
>> overall (closer with better rims).
>
> but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know the
> spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless the
> rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is already
> /way/ too high.
>
> bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
> excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
> to cause that.

True, but back in the "day" (which, according to ANSI, is any time before
noon GMT on March 27, 1983), most/many wheels were 36 hole with sockets and
120 or 126mm hub spacing. You could get tensions high enough to keep the
wheel true without any threadlock and without cracking rims. You could also
use Jobst's taco approach to determining maximum tension without causing
spoke hole cracking. It was a magical era. That approach, however, does not
translate well to the modern era of 130mm hubs, no-socket rims and low spoke
count. These days, I have to go OC rear -- or else resort to some sort of
threadlock or a much heavier rim ( I use Aeroheads) because relying on
tension alone will result in rim cracking. This is based on all my cracked
rims (which were probably in the 130kgf range -- I do have a tensiometer).
It really is time for a new chapter in the Book, maybe two (one covering the
maintenance and repair of prefab wheels).-- Jay Beattie.

Date: 29 May 2007 22:16:18
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Jay Beattie wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:1q-dnVB0DZy6u8HbnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> * * Chas wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>> * * Chas wrote:
>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>> message
>>>>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
>>>>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>>>>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>>>>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>>>>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
>>>>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>>>>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
>>>>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
>>> Campy
>>>>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
>>> 19mm)
>>>>> tires, very well made wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when I
>>>>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
>>> had
>>>>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
>>> hit
>>>>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>>>>>
>>>>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
>>> then I
>>>>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow label
>>>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chas.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> what was the spoke tension?
>>> When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
>> but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
>> tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
>> tension magnitude.
>>
>>> These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
>> this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
>>
>>> I think
>>> that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the
>>> problem.
>> radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
>> fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
>>
>>> I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or a
>>> rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of lubricant
>>> on
>>> the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
>>> overall (closer with better rims).
>> but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know the
>> spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless the
>> rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is already
>> /way/ too high.
>>
>> bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
>> excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
>> to cause that.
>
> True, but back in the "day" (which, according to ANSI, is any time before
> noon GMT on March 27, 1983), most/many wheels were 36 hole with sockets and
> 120 or 126mm hub spacing. You could get tensions high enough to keep the
> wheel true without any threadlock and without cracking rims. You could also
> use Jobst's taco approach to determining maximum tension without causing
> spoke hole cracking. It was a magical era. That approach, however, does not
> translate well to the modern era of 130mm hubs, no-socket rims and low spoke
> count. These days, I have to go OC rear -- or else resort to some sort of
> threadlock or a much heavier rim ( I use Aeroheads) because relying on
> tension alone will result in rim cracking. This is based on all my cracked
> rims (which were probably in the 130kgf range -- I do have a tensiometer).
> It really is time for a new chapter in the Book, maybe two (one covering the
> maintenance and repair of prefab wheels).-- Jay Beattie.
>
>
it's also worth considering that a low profile rim is a good deal less
stiff and therefore has a lower buckling threshold than a modern deeper
section rim. buckling threshold for an old rim will therefore be less,
and spoke tension therefore lower relative to the cracking stress.

Date: 30 May 2007 19:45:27
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:

> it's also worth considering that a low profile rim is a good deal less
> stiff and therefore has a lower buckling threshold than a modern deeper
> section rim. buckling threshold for an old rim will therefore be less,
> and spoke tension therefore lower relative to the cracking stress.

The rim is a guyed column whose cross sectional area and material
properties control its compression buckling. Buckling should not be
confused with unsupported bending strength.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 31 May 2007 06:11:47
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> http://www.jimbeam.com/beam/default.aspx? writes:
>
>> it's also worth considering that a low profile rim is a good deal less
>> stiff and therefore has a lower buckling threshold than a modern deeper
>> section rim. buckling threshold for an old rim will therefore be less,
>> and spoke tension therefore lower relative to the cracking stress.
>
> The rim is a guyed column whose cross sectional area and material
> properties control its compression buckling.

when you use the word "control", you seem to be saying it can't happen
in a braced structure like a spoked wheel. strangely odd since your
recommended spoke tension is to be at the buckling limit.

> Buckling should not be
> confused with unsupported bending strength.

you mean /this/ kind of unsupported bending strength?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/417157612/

Date: 29 May 2007 12:32:32
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"Jay Beattie" <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com > wrote in message
news:465c63b0$0$21260$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net...
>
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:1q-dnVB0DZy6u8HbnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >* * Chas wrote:
> >> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> >> news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >>> * * Chas wrote:
> >>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> >> message
> >>>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com>
wrote:
> >>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> >>>> message
> >>>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> >>>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> >>>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
> >>>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >>>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >>>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available
in
> >>>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >>>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from
a
> >>>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for
himself.
> >> Campy
> >>>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
> >> 19mm)
> >>>> tires, very well made wheels.
> >>>>
> >>>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year
when I
> >>>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
> >> had
> >>>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
> >> hit
> >>>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
> >>>>
> >>>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
> >> then I
> >>>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
> >>>>
> >>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow
label
> >>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
> >>>>
> >>>> Chas.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> what was the spoke tension?
> >>
> >> When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
> >
> > but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
> > tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
> > tension magnitude.
> >
> >> These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
> >
> > this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
> >
> >> I think
> >> that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the
> >> problem.
> >
> > radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
> > fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
> >
> >>
> >> I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break
or a
> >> rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of
lubricant
> >> on
> >> the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
> >> overall (closer with better rims).
> >
> > but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know
the
> > spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless
the
> > rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is
already
> > /way/ too high.
> >
> > bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is
incontrovertibly
> > excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high
enough
> > to cause that.
>
> True, but back in the "day" (which, according to ANSI, is any time
before
> noon GMT on March 27, 1983), most/many wheels were 36 hole with sockets
and
> 120 or 126mm hub spacing. You could get tensions high enough to keep
the
> wheel true without any threadlock and without cracking rims. You could
also
> use Jobst's taco approach to determining maximum tension without causing
> spoke hole cracking. It was a magical era. That approach, however, does
not
> translate well to the modern era of 130mm hubs, no-socket rims and low
spoke
> count. These days, I have to go OC rear -- or else resort to some sort
of
> threadlock or a much heavier rim ( I use Aeroheads) because relying on
> tension alone will result in rim cracking. This is based on all my
cracked
> rims (which were probably in the 130kgf range -- I do have a
tensiometer).
> It really is time for a new chapter in the Book, maybe two (one covering
the
> maintenance and repair of prefab wheels).-- Jay Beattie.
>
Back in the day when I weighed 170-180 Lbs. and did 200 miles a week, I
built a lot of wheels at our shop using the lightest gage Robergel Trois
Etoile SS spokes on the front wheels and heavier butted or straight 14
gage (equivalent) on the rear. I was more interested in the wheels being
true than uniformly tensioned. I lived in the SW so corrosion was never a
problem.

I have a box full of spoke wrenches in at least 1/2 dozen sizes. Most of
them are top quality brands and I always made sure that they fit the
nipples correctly. There is a point just before the brass nipples start to
deform that I used to judge if the spokes were over tightened. I always
like to stop well short of that point.

I used Super Champion sewup and clincher rims on most of the wheels that I
built, we used to import them. Low flange 4x was my choice of spoke
patterns. I still have a few sets that I built for myself and they seem to
have withstood the test of time.

Thirty years and 50 Lbs. later, I've taken more of an interest in keeping
track of the spokes in my wheels if for no other reason than safety
issues. There's a tradeoff between spokes that are too loose and too tight
and with a 36 spoke wheel I think that the spokes can be run with a lot
less tension than most people use to build wheels today. One other point,
today's better quality rims come the factory a lot more round that the egg
shapes rims we used to use.

Chas.

Date: 29 May 2007 09:58:01
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:1q-dnVB0DZy6u8HbnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> * * Chas wrote:
> > "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> > news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
> >> * * Chas wrote:
> >>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> > message
> >>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
> >>> message
> >>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> In article
> >>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>>>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> >>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> >>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
> >>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available
in
> >>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
> >>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
> >>>>>
> >>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
> >>>>
> >>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
> >>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
> > Campy
> >>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
> > 19mm)
> >>> tires, very well made wheels.
> >>>
> >>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when
I
> >>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
> > had
> >>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
> > hit
> >>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
> >>>
> >>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
> > then I
> >>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
> >>>
> >>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow
label
> >>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
> >>>
> >>> Chas.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> what was the spoke tension?
> >
> > When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
>
> but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
> tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
> tension magnitude.
>
> > These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
>
> this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
>
> > I think
> > that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the
problem.
>
> radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
> fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
>
> >
> > I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or
a
> > rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of
lubricant on
> > the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
> > overall (closer with better rims).
>
> but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know
> the spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless
> the rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is
> already /way/ too high.
>
> bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
> excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
> to cause that.

Hey Jim, for over a hundred years millions of bike wheels have been built
without the benefit of tensionometers.

The only spokes that I ever broke were on Bike Boom clunkers back in the
1970s. I've bent a few rims - I hit the back of a stopped car at 30+ mph,
I skidded sideways into a curb and I pacman'd a rim in a sewer grate.

I can appreciate the benefits of using a tensionometer on a highly
stressed low spoke count wheel. I ride mostly 36 spoke wheels with a few
32 spoke wheels I've picked up along the way.

I considered buying a tensionometer several times then I laid down by
myself until the feeling passed. I figured that I'd just drive myself nuts
retensioning and retruing about 20 sets of wheels. My wheels stay true and
I rarely have to adjust any of them.

I'm still riding this Ambrosio rim for short rides on flat, smooth bike
trails. I want to watch the progress of the cracking. I've stopped
adjusting the wheel and the spokes don't feel any the worse - i.e.. they
haven't loosened any more.

As far as who built these wheels and how, they were the most accurate
wheels I've ever used and they stayed true until I hit a number of 2"-4"
high root bumps in the pavement in the dim light of dusk. The impacts
almost knocked me off of the bike.

In trying to find a retro replacement Ambrosio rim, Google searching came
up with a number of reports and complaints about this model rim being
prone to cracking. I would expect this from a 20+ year old rim that was an
early design.

Chas.

Date: 29 May 2007 22:12:57
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

* * Chas wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:1q-dnVB0DZy6u8HbnZ2dnUVZ_qqrnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>> * * Chas wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:YqWdnSVEI7UaB8bbnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@speakeasy.net...
>>>> * * Chas wrote:
>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>> message
>>>>> news:1180403893.375505.188970@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On May 28, 8:55 pm, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in
>>>>> message
>>>>>>> news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>>>>>> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
>>>>>>>>>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>>>>>>>>>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>>>>>>>>> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>>>>>>>> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available
> in
>>>>>>>> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>>>>>>> That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That being the Ambrosio Nexus 36H "Durex"?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nope, Ambrosio 19 Extra "Durex" gray anodized. I bought them from a
>>>>> friend about 20 years ago. He ran a shop and built them for himself.
>>> Campy
>>>>> Record hubs, DT spokes. Specialized 700c x 25 (really about 18 or
>>> 19mm)
>>>>> tires, very well made wheels.
>>>>>
>>>>> I only used them on smooth roads and easy rides until last year when
> I
>>>>> started riding them after work. One of the bike trails I rode a lot
>>> had
>>>>> several sections where the pavement was uplifted from tree roots. I
>>> hit
>>>>> these a few times in the dark hauling butt to get home.
>>>>>
>>>>> I noticed that the rear spokes where coming loose after every ride
>>> then I
>>>>> saw the cracks in the anodizing and the bulging spoke eyelets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside from cheap old sewup rims without eyelets and Fiame yellow
> label
>>>>> rims, I'd never seen spoke hole problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Chas.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> what was the spoke tension?
>>> When I first started riding them the tension was very tight but even.
>> but if you can't quote a tension, we have to assume you didn't use a
>> tensiometer - and that's the problem. evenness makes no difference to
>> tension magnitude.
>>
>>> These rims are supposed to have a bad reputation for cracking.
>> this reputation must be from those that build with excess tension.
>>
>>> I think
>>> that it was the shock from hitting the root bumps that caused the
> problem.
>> radial loading reduces spoke tension, not increases it. it's simply
>> fatigue loading and being too close to yield that is the problem.
>>
>>> I've been building wheels for 30+ years and never saw a spoke break or
> a
>>> rim crack on any wheel that I built. I never used any kind of
> lubricant on
>>> the nipples, I judged tightness by feel and kept runout to under.010
>>> overall (closer with better rims).
>> but you said your friend built them not yourself! and you don't know
>> the spoke tension. runout has /nothing/ to do with spoke tension unless
>> the rim is about to buckle - and if you're at that limit, tension is
>> already /way/ too high.
>>
>> bottom line, you say the eyelets were bulging. that is incontrovertibly
>> excess spoke tension - any rim will crack with spoke tension high enough
>> to cause that.
>
> Hey Jim, for over a hundred years millions of bike wheels have been built
> without the benefit of tensionometers.
>
> The only spokes that I ever broke were on Bike Boom clunkers back in the
> 1970s. I've bent a few rims - I hit the back of a stopped car at 30+ mph,
> I skidded sideways into a curb and I pacman'd a rim in a sewer grate.
>
> I can appreciate the benefits of using a tensionometer on a highly
> stressed low spoke count wheel. I ride mostly 36 spoke wheels with a few
> 32 spoke wheels I've picked up along the way.
>
> I considered buying a tensionometer several times then I laid down by
> myself until the feeling passed. I figured that I'd just drive myself nuts
> retensioning and retruing about 20 sets of wheels. My wheels stay true and
> I rarely have to adjust any of them.
>
> I'm still riding this Ambrosio rim for short rides on flat, smooth bike
> trails. I want to watch the progress of the cracking. I've stopped
> adjusting the wheel and the spokes don't feel any the worse - i.e.. they
> haven't loosened any more.
>
> As far as who built these wheels and how, they were the most accurate
> wheels I've ever used and they stayed true until I hit a number of 2"-4"
> high root bumps in the pavement in the dim light of dusk. The impacts
> almost knocked me off of the bike.
>
> In trying to find a retro replacement Ambrosio rim, Google searching came
> up with a number of reports and complaints about this model rim being
> prone to cracking. I would expect this from a 20+ year old rim that was an
> early design.
>
> Chas.
>
>
>
if the eyelets are bulging, the rim is loaded at yield. that means its
going to crack. quit the denial.

Date: 28 May 2007 18:49:13
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 7:20 pm, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

<snipped >

- on rim design and wheelbuilding technique -

Jobst Brandt:
> > You probably did not get this suggestion from reading "the Bicycle
> > Wheel" because it explains how you achieve that tension without rim
> > damage that you seem to expect.

jim beam:
> in your book, and repeatedly on this forum, when you state that spoke
> tension should be "as high as the rim can bear", you only consider /one/
> aspect of rim damage, buckling. that is a serious omission on your
> part. you should acknowledge and seek to mitigate the cracking, the
> other main form of damage, that results from excess spoke tension by
> seeking recommended spoke tension figures from the rim manufacturer and
> using a tensiometer to achieve it.
>

That's the salient point: Brandt's "technique" takes into account only
one indication of tension limit, the immediately apparent buckling of
the rim. The more subtle, longer term damage of cracking around the
spoke holes caused by excessive spoke tension is blamed on poor rim
design, not the outdated and now often inappropriate technique
suggested in Brandt's book.

"The Bicycle Wheel" is in dire need of an updated edition which takes
newer rim designs and the reality of steeply dished rear wheels and
the resultant tension imbalances into account.

Get with the 21st century, Jobst!

Date: 28 May 2007 18:03:15
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 27, 9:50 am, Victor Kan <victor....@gmail.com > wrote:

> One problem is that the brake surface is kinda low profile so the pads
> that fit fully on my older AT400 rim with room to spare now have just
> barely enough if I have the pads exactly right, and after some more
> pad wear, they might overhang and need adjustment or replacement.

If they start to overhang, just shave them back down with a little box
plane. I usually hold the plane upside down in my palm and run the pad
over it. Good for shaving down vintage pads that still have usable
material beneath the crust. You might say, "hey my time is worth more
than that!", but it's quicker than running to the shop or making an
online purchase.

Date: 29 May 2007 20:49:21
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

> Victor Kan <victor....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One problem is that the brake surface is kinda low profile so the pads
>> that fit fully on my older AT400 rim with room to spare now have just
>> barely enough if I have the pads exactly right, and after some more
>> pad wear, they might overhang and need adjustment or replacement.

landotter wrote:
> If they start to overhang, just shave them back down with a little box
> plane. I usually hold the plane upside down in my palm and run the pad
> over it. Good for shaving down vintage pads that still have usable
> material beneath the crust. You might say, "hey my time is worth more
> than that!", but it's quicker than running to the shop or making an
> online purchase.

You must have the 'neatness gene'. We use a blade freehand.
(I agree a small plane would do an excellent job there.)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 29 May 2007 21:14:29
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

"A Muzi" <am@yellowjersey.org > wrote in message
news:135pm1e5s6beccf@corp.supernews.com...
> > Victor Kan <victor....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> One problem is that the brake surface is kinda low profile so the
pads
> >> that fit fully on my older AT400 rim with room to spare now have just
> >> barely enough if I have the pads exactly right, and after some more
> >> pad wear, they might overhang and need adjustment or replacement.
>
> landotter wrote:
> > If they start to overhang, just shave them back down with a little box
> > plane. I usually hold the plane upside down in my palm and run the pad
> > over it. Good for shaving down vintage pads that still have usable
> > material beneath the crust. You might say, "hey my time is worth more
> > than that!", but it's quicker than running to the shop or making an
> > online purchase.
>
> You must have the 'neatness gene'. We use a blade freehand.
> (I agree a small plane would do an excellent job there.)
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Just use a bench grinder with a real coarse grit wheel (24 or 36 grit) and
hit the brake pads on the side of the wheel. It just takes a few seconds.

Chas.

Date: 28 May 2007 09:14:16
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 10:45 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> landotter wrote:
> > On May 28, 8:23 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> > t's also "strange" that it's possible to get
> >> religiously fevered about one specific rim model while ignoring
> >> improvements in every element of subsequent designs. brake track
> >> machining being my particular favorite with arguments about "thinner"
> >> sidewalls being so laughably easily proven wrong, you have to seriously
> >> wonder.
>
> > If you're claiming that the industry has the advanced die extrusion
> > technology to give a thicker rim sidewall profile before machining,
> > you're wrong.
>
> eh? what's "advanced" about changing wall thickness???
>
> > Because of standards in the industry and legal hurdles
> > in France, rims may only have a precisely regulated sidewall thickness
> > after extrusion,
>
> no, resulting thickness of finished product.
>
> > machining does nothing but remove good material.
>
> what, like this?http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/121453841/
> odd how a machined surface is thicker if the extrusion can't be adjusted
> to accommodate.
>
> > Think of the children! ;^)
>
> just thinking would be sufficient.

I think your satire toggle is set to "off". ;^)

Date: 28 May 2007 08:35:04
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 8:23 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
t's also "strange" that it's possible to get
> religiously fevered about one specific rim model while ignoring
> improvements in every element of subsequent designs. brake track
> machining being my particular favorite with arguments about "thinner"
> sidewalls being so laughably easily proven wrong, you have to seriously
> wonder.
>
>
If you're claiming that the industry has the advanced die extrusion
technology to give a thicker rim sidewall profile before machining,
you're wrong. Because of standards in the industry and legal hurdles
in France, rims may only have a precisely regulated sidewall thickness
after extrusion, machining does nothing but remove good material.
Think of the children! ;^)

Date: 28 May 2007 08:45:26
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

landotter wrote:
> On May 28, 8:23 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
> t's also "strange" that it's possible to get
>> religiously fevered about one specific rim model while ignoring
>> improvements in every element of subsequent designs. brake track
>> machining being my particular favorite with arguments about "thinner"
>> sidewalls being so laughably easily proven wrong, you have to seriously
>> wonder.
>>
>>
> If you're claiming that the industry has the advanced die extrusion
> technology to give a thicker rim sidewall profile before machining,
> you're wrong.

eh? what's "advanced" about changing wall thickness???

> Because of standards in the industry and legal hurdles
> in France, rims may only have a precisely regulated sidewall thickness
> after extrusion,

no, resulting thickness of finished product.

> machining does nothing but remove good material.

what, like this?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/121453841/
odd how a machined surface is thicker if the extrusion can't be adjusted
to accommodate.

> Think of the children! ;^)
>
just thinking would be sufficient.

Date: 28 May 2007 03:56:54
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk > wrote:
> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > When did MA-2s become great????
> > With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> > box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> > unmachined sidewall rims.
>
> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>
> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
>

Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
36H. Hmmmmm....

Date: 28 May 2007 18:55:21
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1180349814.872533.38330@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On May 28, 2:06 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<s...@reippuert.dk> wrote:
> > Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> > > ,
> > > Ozark Bicycle
> > > <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > > > When did MA-2s become great????
> > > With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> > > box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> > > unmachined sidewall rims.
> >
> > I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
> >
> > <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>
> >
>
> Note that the "Durex" (hard anodized) version is only available in
> 36H. Hmmmmm....
>

That's the only rim I've seen with cracking around the eyelets.

Chas.

Date: 28 May 2007 03:54:50
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Ozark Bicycle
>
> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> > When did MA-2s become great????
>
> With the MA-40,

IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.

> and simultaneous disappearance of all
> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> unmachined sidewall rims.
> It is a good design and should still be available.

Keyword: "good". That's the point; the MA-2 was a good (clincher) rim.
Good, but not "great".

> Look at the vast selection of rims, but this design has vanished.
>
> --
> Michael Press

Date: 28 May 2007 06:23:14
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> In article
>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>> ,
>> Ozark Bicycle
>>
>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>> With the MA-40,
>
> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
> to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
> anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.

indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of "the
book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear".
it's, er, "strange" how a dye penetrant test can be cited as being
definitive "proof" of anodizing causing cracking, and at the same time
spoke tension be dismissed as nothing to do with it.

parallel to that, it's also "strange" that it's possible to get
religiously fevered about one specific rim model while ignoring
improvements in every element of subsequent designs. brake track
machining being my particular favorite with arguments about "thinner"
sidewalls being so laughably easily proven wrong, you have to seriously
wonder.

>
>
>> and simultaneous disappearance of all
>> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
>> unmachined sidewall rims.
>> It is a good design and should still be available.
>
>
> Keyword: "good". That's the point; the MA-2 was a good (clincher) rim.
> Good, but not "great".
>
>
>> Look at the vast selection of rims, but this design has vanished.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press
>
>

Date: 28 May 2007 16:24:08
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Dans le message de news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>> ,
>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>
>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>> With the MA-40,
>>
>> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
>> to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
>> anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
>
> indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of "the
> book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear".

Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?
Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it can bear
xxx+1.
And onwards.

Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?
So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?
Because more than that exceeds the limit ?
So who pays to learn the limits ?

Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?
And spokes from different manufacturers ?

So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose warranty I
likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I use up in learning
these limits ?

Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim mildly ?
Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and living with an
imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached tension limit ?

For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve perfect
knowledge of how far you can go.
It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go through a
turn by measuring the road rash.

Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.

--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, too many fuming
demands that
"you do the math", or conceited visions of a better world on wheels
according
to [insert NAME here].

Date: 30 May 2007 00:11:12
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

In article <465ae608$0$11174$426a74cc@news.free.fr >,
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote:

> Dans le message de news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> > Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> >> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> >>> ,
> >>> Ozark Bicycle
> >>>
> >>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
> >>>> When did MA-2s become great????
> >>> With the MA-40,
> >>
> >> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
> >> to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
> >> anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
> >
> > indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of "the
> > book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>
> Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
> How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?
> Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it can bear
> xxx+1.
> And onwards.
>
> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?
> So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?
> Because more than that exceeds the limit ?
> So who pays to learn the limits ?
>
> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?
> And spokes from different manufacturers ?
>
> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose warranty I
> likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I use up in learning
> these limits ?
>
> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim mildly ?
> Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and living with an
> imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached tension limit ?
>
> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve perfect
> knowledge of how far you can go.
> It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go through a
> turn by measuring the road rash.
>
> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.

You bring a superior attitude and no technical ability
to a technical forum. This is another sneering
expression of how much better you are than everybody
else. Nothing good can come of it. One must ask,
though, given the low quality of life in this forum,
why you do not find a better one in which to feel
superior? Slumming are we?

--
Michael Press

Date: 30 May 2007 08:16:07
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Michael Press a �crit :
> In article <465ae608$0$11174$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
> "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote:
>
>
>> Dans le message de news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net,
>> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>>
>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>
>>>> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>> ,
>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>
>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>>
>>>>> With the MA-40,
>>>>>
>>>> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
>>>> to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
>>>> anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
>>>>
>>> indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of "the
>>> book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>>>
>> Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
>> How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?
>> Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it can bear
>> xxx+1.
>> And onwards.
>>
>> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?
>> So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?
>> Because more than that exceeds the limit ?
>> So who pays to learn the limits ?
>>
>> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?
>> And spokes from different manufacturers ?
>>
>> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose warranty I
>> likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I use up in learning
>> these limits ?
>>
>> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim mildly ?
>> Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and living with an
>> imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached tension limit ?
>>
>> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve perfect
>> knowledge of how far you can go.
>> It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go through a
>> turn by measuring the road rash.
>>
>> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.
>>
>
> You bring a superior attitude and no technical ability
> to a technical forum. This is another sneering
> expression of how much better you are than everybody
> else. Nothing good can come of it. One must ask,
> though, given the low quality of life in this forum,
> why you do not find a better one in which to feel
> superior? Slumming are we?
>
>
Your irony is weak. But you get an answer.

When faced with a choice of trusting someone, I consider whether an
older, cranky engineer, publicizing his own book, who has comparatively
no experience with products of the past 25 years, is more likely to
inform me and give me an appropriate answer, or is more competent to
evaluate current products, or do I lean towards manufacturers, who have
more than a few engineers in pay, and who produce tens of thousands of
wheelsets each year and work on future designs.

I also consider whether the prime lesson, repeated ad nauseam, and with
a recommendation to read (buy) that single opus, (which is no more than
the concretization of practices that were current for many years amongst
wheelbuilders), authorizes blank acceptance of his various viewpoints on
pretty much anything else. So, I stand ready to challenge, openly, what
seem to be ideologic pronouncements by someone with a technical
expertise, where they don't make sense.

There are wheelbuilders who write in this forum with current knowledge,
who do not sheepishly adhere to a party line. I also have a sense that
economics that tells me that a 95% excellent solution to a problem that
is cost efficient and reliable may be preferable to a 99% excellent
solution that is much higher priced and only marginally better.

It's like the grease/don't grease differences for BB's and fasteners.
Or Ergo/STI/barcon/DT shifters. A controversy that is not resolved only
by the technocrats. I find it fair to pose a counterpoint. For me, on
the specific issue - I lean to taking the limits stated by a
manufacturer before experimenting beyond them.

--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Date: 30 May 2007 10:45:00
From: Pikachu
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

In article <465d16a7$0$3635$426a74cc@news.free.fr >,
Sandy <leurrre@free.fr > wrote:

> When faced with a choice of trusting someone, I consider whether an
> older, cranky engineer, publicizing his own book, who has comparatively
> no experience with products of the past 25 years, is more likely to
> inform me and give me an appropriate answer, or is more competent to
> evaluate current products, or do I lean towards manufacturers, who have
> more than a few engineers in pay, and who produce tens of thousands of
> wheelsets each year and work on future designs.

The market is now flooded with "technical achievements" that are being
sold with claims that border on fantasy. Things like ceramic bearings,
or aluminium spokes that are no lighter but have a larger profile than
the better stainless spokes. I am sure you have considered that these
products fostered upon consumers stemmed not from engineers but from
marketers. Alas, nowadays, product development is mostly marketing
driven, not engineering driven.

Date: 30 May 2007 20:25:03
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Dans le message de
news:pikachu-BADCD9.10450030052007@sn-indi.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net,
Pikachu <pikachu@pokemon.org > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> In article <465d16a7$0$3635$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
> Sandy <leurrre@free.fr> wrote:
>
>> When faced with a choice of trusting someone, I consider whether an
>> older, cranky engineer, publicizing his own book, who has
>> comparatively no experience with products of the past 25 years, is
>> more likely to inform me and give me an appropriate answer, or is
>> more competent to evaluate current products, or do I lean towards
>> manufacturers, who have more than a few engineers in pay, and who
>> produce tens of thousands of wheelsets each year and work on future
>> designs.
>
> The market is now flooded with "technical achievements" that are being
> sold with claims that border on fantasy. Things like ceramic
> bearings, or aluminium spokes that are no lighter but have a larger
> profile than the better stainless spokes. I am sure you have
> considered that these products fostered upon consumers stemmed not
> from engineers but from marketers. Alas, nowadays, product
> development is mostly marketing driven, not engineering driven.

Did you ever eat a Big Mac ? EVER !?!?!? But you knew all along it was bad
for you, right ? Are you trying to exculpate that bad choice ? Other bad
choices ? Did you answer the Nigerian fax or e-mail stuff ? Did you choose
something to wear because it was attractive, not simply functional ? Do you
ever coast downhill, or do you madly spin ? Feel guilty about it ?

No, marketeers did not do it. Simple. If engineers couldn't design
products and facilitate their production, there would not be anything new to
sell. Everyone likes it if it's new, at least by eye, unless you are a
stolid curmudgeon. Development can't be done by marketers unless they are
also engineers. If you had an idea how product development is actually
done, it reflects consumer input, slides along as a Q of whether something
can be made that fulfills desires, then, depending on feasibility, it goes
on the market or not. And there, it fails or succeeds, with the _help_ of
marketing. Marketing like the biological food production promotions,
marketing like charity drives, etc.

You pointed at ceramic bearings. OK, I don't know the answer, but I'd ask a
Q : is a ceramic bearing measurably more friction-free or smoother than a
metal one ? Not /noticeably/ so, but measurably. If not, you have a good
case to present, with full technical explanation, to the Federal Trade
Commission for fraudulent advertising claims, if there are such claims, and
if you are actually right. Absent that, absent falsehood, the marketers are
loudly proclaiming a truth, even if it were more academic than practical.

There are claims connected to many cycling products that claim reduced watts
in use, thus faster results with the same wattage. They are not entirely
additive, but they exist. For racers at top level, such small changes in
wattage requried for certain speeds mean differences in race results, and
that means money in their pockets. Like Lightweight (TM) wheels. In fact,
such improvements likely mean a greater percentage improvement for a lower
level rider. So in quest of higher placings, he buys them. If he does go
faster, folks in this forum claim it's a placebo effect. Like red frame
color. Who cares ? Where is the harm ? Did you think that we are solving
major world problems in here ?

It's not original to say, "Buyer beware." But there you have it.
--
Les faits relat�s ici ne sont que pure fiction, et ne sauraient �tre
utilis�s ou rapproch�s d'une situation r�elle existant ou ayant
exist�e

Date: 30 May 2007 20:05:19
From: Pikachu
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

In article <465dc180$0$29038$426a74cc@news.free.fr >,
"Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote:

> Did you ever eat a Big Mac ? EVER !?!?!? But you knew all along it was bad
> for you, right ? Are you trying to exculpate that bad choice ? Other bad
> choices ? Did you answer the Nigerian fax or e-mail stuff ? Did you choose
> something to wear because it was attractive, not simply functional ? Do you
> ever coast downhill, or do you madly spin ? Feel guilty about it ?

I am not sure what your point is. If you're asking if I were ever
befuddled by marketing claims, the answer is of course yes!

My statement was in response to your bias about trusting "manufacturers,
who have more than a few engineers.." to "an older, cranky engineer". I
offered a counterpoint to why manufacturers may have their own bias
(towards selling us product, of merit or otherwise), and that their
claims should also be judged critically. Perhaps even more critically
than L'evangile de Jobst.

Date: 30 May 2007 18:47:36
From: still me
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:25:03 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr > wrote:

>If you had an idea how product development is actually
>done, it reflects consumer input, slides along as a Q of whether something
>can be made that fulfills desires, then, depending on feasibility, it goes
>on the market or not. And there, it fails or succeeds, with the _help_ of
>marketing. Marketing like the biological food production promotions,
>marketing like charity drives, etc.

I'm afraid I have to step into my anal-retentive mode now due to the
discussion in the last two posts.

The term "Marketing" is typically used inaccurately. "Marketing" is
done to find out what people need/want in a general area. It is
roughly the part above where you mentioned "consumer input" and
"fulfills desires". "Sales" is the part where they try to get you to
buy it through fancy advertisements, celebrity promotions, etc.

Pikachu's point about "product development is mostly marketing
driven, not engineering driven" is exactly the way it should be. The
process should be marketing- > design -> development -> production ->
sales. Engineering driven companies typically go out of business
because they build what's "right" not what people "want".

But, a good Sales blitz can often overcome a lack of Marketing -
witness MS!. You can overcome a shortage of marketing with an excess
of promotion. Digital Equipment Corp is a great example of a
multi-billion $ company driven into the ground by sticking to an
Engineering driven philosophy (Ken Olsen "people don't need PC's").
Unfortunately for Digital, they never hired a Sales department so
their latest, innovative, and actually superior, engineering driven
products could not save them.

Date: 31 May 2007 06:14:24
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

still me wrote:
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:25:03 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote:
>
>> If you had an idea how product development is actually
>> done, it reflects consumer input, slides along as a Q of whether something
>> can be made that fulfills desires, then, depending on feasibility, it goes
>> on the market or not. And there, it fails or succeeds, with the _help_ of
>> marketing. Marketing like the biological food production promotions,
>> marketing like charity drives, etc.
>
>
> I'm afraid I have to step into my anal-retentive mode now due to the
> discussion in the last two posts.
>
> The term "Marketing" is typically used inaccurately. "Marketing" is
> done to find out what people need/want in a general area. It is
> roughly the part above where you mentioned "consumer input" and
> "fulfills desires". "Sales" is the part where they try to get you to
> buy it through fancy advertisements, celebrity promotions, etc.
>
> Pikachu's point about "product development is mostly marketing
> driven, not engineering driven" is exactly the way it should be. The
> process should be marketing-> design -> development -> production ->
> sales. Engineering driven companies typically go out of business
> because they build what's "right" not what people "want".
>
> But, a good Sales blitz can often overcome a lack of Marketing -
> witness MS!. You can overcome a shortage of marketing with an excess
> of promotion. Digital Equipment Corp is a great example of a
> multi-billion $ company driven into the ground by sticking to an
> Engineering driven philosophy (Ken Olsen "people don't need PC's").
> Unfortunately for Digital, they never hired a Sales department so
> their latest, innovative, and actually superior, engineering driven
> products could not save them.
>
>
>
well said.

Date: 30 May 2007 19:53:48
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

someone writes:

>> If you had an idea how product development is actually done, it
>> reflects consumer input, slides along as a Q of whether something
>> can be made that fulfills desires, then, depending on feasibility,
>> it goes on the market or not. And there, it fails or succeeds,
>> with the _help_ of marketing. Marketing like the biological food
>> production promotions, marketing like charity drives, etc.

> I'm afraid I have to step into my anal-retentive mode now due to the
> discussion in the last two posts.

> The term "Marketing" is typically used inaccurately. "Marketing" is
> done to find out what people need/want in a general area. It is
> roughly the part above where you mentioned "consumer input" and
> "fulfills desires". "Sales" is the part where they try to get you to
> buy it through fancy advertisements, celebrity promotions, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing#Definitions

Jobst Brandt

Date: 30 May 2007 21:02:41
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Dans le message de news:sjgr5393hnrtphlo14975pdp01okq89sbe@4ax.com,
still me <wheeledBob@yahoo.com > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> On Wed, 30 May 2007 20:25:03 +0200, "Sandy" <leurre@frree.fr> wrote:
>
>> If you had an idea how product development is actually
>> done, it reflects consumer input, slides along as a Q of whether
>> something can be made that fulfills desires, then, depending on
>> feasibility, it goes on the market or not. And there, it fails or
>> succeeds, with the _help_ of marketing. Marketing like the
>> biological food production promotions, marketing like charity
>> drives, etc.
>
>
> I'm afraid I have to step into my anal-retentive mode now due to the
> discussion in the last two posts.
>
> The term "Marketing" is typically used inaccurately. "Marketing" is
> done to find out what people need/want in a general area. It is
> roughly the part above where you mentioned "consumer input" and
> "fulfills desires". "Sales" is the part where they try to get you to
> buy it through fancy advertisements, celebrity promotions, etc.

Just look at any description of a job announced as "product development".
You push marketing into that description. While they align well, they are
separate and different. A market is every sense is the terminal of exchange
of finished material and customer.
>
> Pikachu's point about "product development is mostly marketing
> driven, not engineering driven" is exactly the way it should be. The
> process should be marketing-> design -> development -> production ->
> sales. Engineering driven companies typically go out of business
> because they build what's "right" not what people "want".

There is no right way, except the acceptable way. Acceptance is not a bunch
of geeks slapping each other on the back. Engineering companies that fail
to heed customer demand and preference fail to be in any market, save the
unemployment market.
>
> But, a good Sales blitz can often overcome a lack of Marketing -
> witness MS!. You can overcome a shortage of marketing with an excess
> of promotion.

Promotion is part of marketing. Next ...

--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

Date: 29 May 2007 00:01:06
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Sandy Leurre writes:

> Help out a layman, please. Do the math. How does one know that one
> has gone TO the limit the rim can bear? Obviously, if it bears xxx
> units of tension, you don't know if it can bear xxx+1. And onwards.

> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims? So that one
> would know that XXX units exactly is the limit? Because more than
> that exceeds the limit? So who pays to learn the limits?

You probably did not get this suggestion from reading "the Bicycle
Wheel" because it explains how you achieve that tension without rim
damage that you seem to expect.

> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits? And
> spokes from different manufacturers?

It is not dependent on the number of spokes nor their thickness. It
is entirely dependent on rim strength (cross section and material).

> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose
> warranty I likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I
> use up in learning these limits?

Bad humor will get you nowhere!

> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim
> mildly? Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension
> and living with an imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have
> reached tension limit?

Why worry about it? You seem to be satisfied with the wheels you have
built (if any), so leave it that way.

> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve
> perfect knowledge of how far you can go. It's like learning what
> the maximum cornering angle you can go through a turn by measuring
> the road rash.

This is beginning to sound like bicycling experienced at the keyboard
rather than on the road and on a bicycle. If you ride you, must surely
have fallen from loss of traction, be that snow, rain or shine. If
you haven't, then you started bicycling too late in life and ride in
fear of the first occurrence.

> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.

"SOME PEOPLE" := Sandy

Jobst Brandt

Date: 28 May 2007 17:20:12
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Sandy Leurre writes:
>
>> Help out a layman, please. Do the math. How does one know that one
>> has gone TO the limit the rim can bear? Obviously, if it bears xxx
>> units of tension, you don't know if it can bear xxx+1. And onwards.
>
>> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims? So that one
>> would know that XXX units exactly is the limit? Because more than
>> that exceeds the limit? So who pays to learn the limits?
>
> You probably did not get this suggestion from reading "the Bicycle
> Wheel" because it explains how you achieve that tension without rim
> damage that you seem to expect.

in your book, and repeatedly on this forum, when you state that spoke
tension should be "as high as the rim can bear", you only consider /one/
aspect of rim damage, buckling. that is a serious omission on your
part. you should acknowledge and seek to mitigate the cracking, the
other main form of damage, that results from excess spoke tension by
seeking recommended spoke tension figures from the rim manufacturer and
using a tensiometer to achieve it.

but i guess that when one knows nothing about fatigue and mistakenly
confuses tension with strength, that such errors are to be expected.

>
>> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits? And
>> spokes from different manufacturers?
>
> It is not dependent on the number of spokes nor their thickness. It
> is entirely dependent on rim strength (cross section and material).
>
>> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose
>> warranty I likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I
>> use up in learning these limits?
>
> Bad humor will get you nowhere!
>
>> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim
>> mildly? Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension
>> and living with an imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have
>> reached tension limit?
>
> Why worry about it? You seem to be satisfied with the wheels you have
> built (if any), so leave it that way.
>
>> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve
>> perfect knowledge of how far you can go. It's like learning what
>> the maximum cornering angle you can go through a turn by measuring
>> the road rash.
>
> This is beginning to sound like bicycling experienced at the keyboard
> rather than on the road and on a bicycle. If you ride you, must surely
> have fallen from loss of traction, be that snow, rain or shine. If
> you haven't, then you started bicycling too late in life and ride in
> fear of the first occurrence.
>
>> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.
>
> "SOME PEOPLE" := Sandy
>
> Jobst Brandt

Date: 28 May 2007 08:08:36
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Sandy wrote:
> Dans le message de news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>> ,
>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>
>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>> With the MA-40,
>>> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the MA-40
>>> to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The whole
>>> anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
>> indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of "the
>> book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can bear".
>
> Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
> How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?

by calling the rim manufacturer and using a tensiometer.

> Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it can bear
> xxx+1.
> And onwards.

yes you do know if you get the information from the manufacturer.

>
> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?

yes it does - destructive testing.

> So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?

with certain statistical boundaries, yes.

> Because more than that exceeds the limit ?

yes.

> So who pays to learn the limits ?

manufacturer is the best source. they know the material and they know
their product. you could replicate it yourself, but it requires access
to testing equipment and destruction of a largish sample of rims [since
this is also a statistical process]. and of course, it takes time.

>
> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?

in that loading cycles may vary slightly, yes.

> And spokes from different manufacturers ?

not if they're the same dimensions, no. elasticity for steels is
essentially the same, so other than any difference in fatigue lives for
the spokes themselves, the rim will never experience any loading
differences between spoke manufacturers and slightly different steel grades.

>
> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose warranty I
> likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I use up in learning
> these limits ?

who would pay for that data commercially when you can get it for free
from the manufacturer? i can imagine a university doing research in the
process of education, but it'll simply be replication in terms of basic
results.

>
> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim mildly ?
> Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and living with an
> imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached tension limit ?

why all the brain damage? simply call the manufacturer and ask them
what their spoke tension limits are. i called mavic usa and they
happily told me what i needed to know for several different rim models.

>
> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve perfect
> knowledge of how far you can go.
> It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go through a
> turn by measuring the road rash.
>
> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.

it's not a question of what you know - it's a question of whether you
accept new information based on presentation style and claimed
credentials without subjecting it to logical analysis and a little
thought. just like politics.

Date: 28 May 2007 17:23:48
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Dans le message de news:gpednaK5cK7obcfbnZ2dnUVZ_ragnZ2d@speakeasy.net,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> Sandy wrote:
>> Dans le message de
>> news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net, jim beam
>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r?fl?chi, et puis a d?clar? :
>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>> ,
>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>
>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>> With the MA-40,
>>>> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the
>>>> MA-40 to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The
>>>> whole anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
>>> indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of
>>> "the book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can
>>> bear".
>>
>> Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
>> How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?
>
> by calling the rim manufacturer and using a tensiometer.
>
>> Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it
>> can bear xxx+1.
>> And onwards.
>
> yes you do know if you get the information from the manufacturer.
>
>>
>> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?
>
> yes it does - destructive testing.
>
>> So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?
>
> with certain statistical boundaries, yes.
>
>> Because more than that exceeds the limit ?
>
> yes.
>
>> So who pays to learn the limits ?
>
> manufacturer is the best source. they know the material and they know
> their product. you could replicate it yourself, but it requires
> access to testing equipment and destruction of a largish sample of rims
> [since this is also a statistical process]. and of course, it takes
> time.
>>
>> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?
>
> in that loading cycles may vary slightly, yes.
>
>> And spokes from different manufacturers ?
>
> not if they're the same dimensions, no. elasticity for steels is
> essentially the same, so other than any difference in fatigue lives
> for the spokes themselves, the rim will never experience any loading
> differences between spoke manufacturers and slightly different steel
> grades.
>>
>> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose
>> warranty I likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I
>> use up in learning these limits ?
>
> who would pay for that data commercially when you can get it for free
> from the manufacturer? i can imagine a university doing research in
> the process of education, but it'll simply be replication in terms of
> basic results.
>
>>
>> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim
>> mildly ? Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and
>> living
>> with an imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached
>> tension limit ?
>
> why all the brain damage? simply call the manufacturer and ask them
> what their spoke tension limits are. i called mavic usa and they
> happily told me what i needed to know for several different rim
> models.
>>
>> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve
>> perfect knowledge of how far you can go.
>> It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go
>> through a turn by measuring the road rash.
>>
>> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.
>
> it's not a question of what you know - it's a question of whether you
> accept new information based on presentation style and claimed
> credentials without subjecting it to logical analysis and a little
> thought. just like politics.

I'll never feed you a straight line again :-(

Date: 28 May 2007 08:32:35
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Sandy wrote:
> Dans le message de news:gpednaK5cK7obcfbnZ2dnUVZ_ragnZ2d@speakeasy.net,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>> Sandy wrote:
>>> Dans le message de
>>> news:Qbadncv5WoJeSsfbnZ2dnUVZ_tyinZ2d@speakeasy.net, jim beam
>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r?fl?chi, et puis a d?clar? :
>>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>>> On May 28, 12:20 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> <1180276530.812111.238...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>> Ozark Bicycle
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> When did MA-2s become great????
>>>>>> With the MA-40,
>>>>> IIRC (and I believe I do), back in the day, many considered the
>>>>> MA-40 to be 'superior' due to it's "hard anodized" surface. The
>>>>> whole anodized-rims-crack-around-the-spokeholes theory came later.
>>>> indeed. that "later" mysteriously coinciding with publication of
>>>> "the book" and its advocated spoke tension "as high as the rim can
>>>> bear".
>>> Help out a layman, please. Do the math.
>>> How does one know that one has gone TO the limit the rim can bear ?
>> by calling the rim manufacturer and using a tensiometer.
>>
>>> Obviously, if it bears xxx units of tension, you don't know if it
>>> can bear xxx+1.
>>> And onwards.
>> yes you do know if you get the information from the manufacturer.
>>
>>> Doesn't knowing the limit of spoke tension COST rims ?
>> yes it does - destructive testing.
>>
>>> So that one would know that XXX units exactly is the limit ?
>> with certain statistical boundaries, yes.
>>
>>> Because more than that exceeds the limit ?
>> yes.
>>
>>> So who pays to learn the limits ?
>> manufacturer is the best source. they know the material and they know
>> their product. you could replicate it yourself, but it requires
>> access to testing equipment and destruction of a largish sample of rims
>> [since this is also a statistical process]. and of course, it takes
>> time.
>>> Won't different spoke gauges invite slightly different limits ?
>> in that loading cycles may vary slightly, yes.
>>
>>> And spokes from different manufacturers ?
>> not if they're the same dimensions, no. elasticity for steels is
>> essentially the same, so other than any difference in fatigue lives
>> for the spokes themselves, the rim will never experience any loading
>> differences between spoke manufacturers and slightly different steel
>> grades.
>>> So is their some kind agency - other than the manufacturer, whose
>>> warranty I likely invalidated - which will pay me for all the rims I
>>> use up in learning these limits ?
>> who would pay for that data commercially when you can get it for free
>> from the manufacturer? i can imagine a university doing research in
>> the process of education, but it'll simply be replication in terms of
>> basic results.
>>
>>> Or is it better to find out that I have only distorted the rim
>>> mildly ? Am I better off having exceeded spec and relaxing tension and
>>> living
>>> with an imperfect wheel, so long as I have proof I have reached
>>> tension limit ?
>> why all the brain damage? simply call the manufacturer and ask them
>> what their spoke tension limits are. i called mavic usa and they
>> happily told me what i needed to know for several different rim
>> models.
>>> For my uninformed mind, this is a great deal of expense to achieve
>>> perfect knowledge of how far you can go.
>>> It's like learning what the maximum cornering angle you can go
>>> through a turn by measuring the road rash.
>>>
>>> Sorry if such a question seems to stump SOME PEOPLE.
>> it's not a question of what you know - it's a question of whether you
>> accept new information based on presentation style and claimed
>> credentials without subjecting it to logical analysis and a little
>> thought. just like politics.
>
> I'll never feed you a straight line again :-(
>
>
i'm a tech geek. is that not clear? what did you expect?

Date: 27 May 2007 14:24:14
From: Jay Beattie
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 27, 7:35 am, Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:
> On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
> > what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
>
> > I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13 which
> > is a 700c.
>
> > To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty Python
> > movies:
>
> > "Run away! Run away!"
>
> > Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike, you're
> > buying potential problems with the hub.
>
> > Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
> > similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974. Even
> > back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and we
> > used to import French components.
>
> > Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
> > bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find cones
> > that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so dirt
> > could easily get into the bearings.
>
> > MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
> > sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy hubs
> > and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
>
> Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
> more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
> up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
> example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
> also have.
>
> When did MA-2s become great????

When the MA-3 was released!

Actually, what made the MA-2 (or the ModE/E2) great was price and
durability. The next model up in the late '70s was the G40, the
anodized version of the same rim (or was that the GP4 -- one of those
was a sew-up rim). There was no Open 4 yet -- which was a good rim,
too -- but that came about much later, like in the mid-80s, IIRC.
That's when Campy started making rims. The only other competitor
before the mid '80s was the Gentleman (Super Champ/Wolber)and the
Rigida 1320. -- again, IIRC (and not including "touring rims" like the
various SC Mods and Weinmann concave)

The later Mavic rims (Open 4, etc.)took a huge jump in price and
tended to get more spoke hole cracking. IMO, all of these rims are
sub-optimal in a 9/10sp wheel (assuming you are not using spoke lock
of some sort). I much prefer OC rear wheels. -- Jay Beattie.

Date: 27 May 2007 11:50:06
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 11:35 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

[snip]

> The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
> gratuitously sculptured ugly shape.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Others see only a chance to quarrel with your aesthetic judgement.

I see an opportunity to . . . Well, to indulge myself.

You want a gratuitously ugly rim? No sockets, no eyelets? Wildly OC?
With spoke couplers? Some kind of tying-and-soldering? Hooks for spoke-
heads at the rim? Nipples at a high-low hub?

http://i12.tinypic.com/6435vlw.jpg

The oddly flat part of the rim cross-section (or "gratuitously ugly")
is necessary for the tenon-and-mortise zig-zag construction. What good
the zig-zag design does is unclear--they'd been making double-wall
rims for years.

Here's the patent text:

http://i11.tinypic.com/62n9sb4.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/53zw50j.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Date: 27 May 2007 10:47:22
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 27, 12:39 pm, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On May 27, 7:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
> > "ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
> > curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical analysis
> > that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking prejudice?
>
> Is technical analysis required for an aesthetic judgement?

Do you like to dance to architecture?

Date: 27 May 2007 10:39:28
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 27, 7:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:

> "ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
> curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical analysis
> that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking prejudice?

Is technical analysis required for an aesthetic judgement?

Date: 27 May 2007 10:52:05
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On May 27, 7:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> "ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
>> curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical analysis
>> that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking prejudice?
>
> Is technical analysis required for an aesthetic judgement?
>
>
if you want to mix it with a technical criticism, yes. if it were "i
think it looks ugly" it would simply be an aesthetic opinion. instead
we get:

"It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.

"The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
gratuitously sculptured ugly shape."

this is classic jobst brandt mixing fact with opinion and presenting it
as definitive.

Date: 27 May 2007 20:05:47
From: Sandy
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Dans le message de news:XY2dnZn5iZraWMTbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net,
jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net > a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
> Hank Wirtz wrote:
>> On May 27, 7:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
>>> curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical
>>> analysis that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking
>>> prejudice?
>>
>> Is technical analysis required for an aesthetic judgement?
>>
>>
> if you want to mix it with a technical criticism, yes. if it were "i
> think it looks ugly" it would simply be an aesthetic opinion. instead
> we get:
>
> "It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
> Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
> the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.
>
> "The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
> gratuitously sculptured ugly shape."
>
> this is classic jobst brandt mixing fact with opinion and presenting
> it as definitive.

Perhaps he could use a dictionary to refine his understanding of
"gratuitous". Or alter his life by incorporating aesthetics. Don't hold
your breath.

Date: 28 May 2007 08:37:51
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Sandy wrote:
> Dans le message de news:XY2dnZn5iZraWMTbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@speakeasy.net,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> a r�fl�chi, et puis a d�clar� :
>> Hank Wirtz wrote:
>>> On May 27, 7:34 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
>>>> curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical
>>>> analysis that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking
>>>> prejudice?
>>> Is technical analysis required for an aesthetic judgement?
>>>
>>>
>> if you want to mix it with a technical criticism, yes. if it were "i
>> think it looks ugly" it would simply be an aesthetic opinion. instead
>> we get:
>>
>> "It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
>> Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
>> the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.
>>
>> "The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
>> gratuitously sculptured ugly shape."
>>
>> this is classic jobst brandt mixing fact with opinion and presenting
>> it as definitive.
>
> Perhaps he could use a dictionary to refine his understanding of
> "gratuitous". Or alter his life by incorporating aesthetics. Don't hold
> your breath.
>
>
here's gratuitous - comparison of these:
http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/s39.html
http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/quiz1262outcome1.jpg

Date: 30 May 2007 22:47:43
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net > wrote in message
news:moidnbFHptjNasfbnZ2dnUVZ_q2pnZ2d@speakeasy.net...
<snip >
> here's gratuitous - comparison of these:
> http://www.paloaltobicycles.com/alps_photos/s39.html

Thanks for the Palo Alto Bicycle link. I had never seen most of those
photos. Some of them were used in Palo Alto's catalogs in the 1970s.

Chas.

Date: 27 May 2007 09:40:12
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 27, 11:28 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > > Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
> > > what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
>
> > > I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13
> which
> > > is a 700c.
>
> > > To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty
> Python
> > > movies:
>
> > > "Run away! Run away!"
>
> > > Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike,
> you're
> > > buying potential problems with the hub.
>
> > > Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
> > > similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974.
> Even
> > > back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and
> we
> > > used to import French components.
>
> > > Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
> > > bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find
> cones
> > > that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so
> dirt
> > > could easily get into the bearings.
>
> > > MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
> > > sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy
> hubs
> > > and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
>
> > Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
> > more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
> > up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
> > example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
> > also have.
>
> > When did MA-2s become great????
>
> > Is this a case of:
>
> > "Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's
> > gone" - Joni Mitchell, ca. 1972
>
> > or is it a case of:
>
> > "The older you get, the better you were" - Greg LeMond, ca. 1989
>
> "The Faster We Go, The Rounder We Get" - Grateful Dead, "Anthem of the
> Sun" ca. 1968

Or:

"The rounder I get, the slower I go" - Greg LeMond ca. 2007 ( plucked
out of thin air, with apologies to Mr. LeMond, whom I like and
respect.)

>
> Chas. - Wow! Far out man!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Date: 27 May 2007 08:35:33
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 27, 10:03 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net > wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> >> Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
> >> what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
>
> >> I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13 which
> >> is a 700c.
>
> >> To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty Python
> >> movies:
>
> >> "Run away! Run away!"
>
> >> Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike, you're
> >> buying potential problems with the hub.
>
> >> Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
> >> similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974. Even
> >> back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and we
> >> used to import French components.
>
> >> Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
> >> bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find cones
> >> that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so dirt
> >> could easily get into the bearings.
>
> >> MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
> >> sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy hubs
> >> and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
>
> > Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
> > more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
> > up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
> > example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
> > also have.
>
> > When did MA-2s become great????
>
> well, they were great in that they were just like the "module e", the
> first worthwhile clincher rim that set the current market. but when the
> ma2 was mainstream, as you say, there were a number of other better rims
> on the market, including mavic's own successor line-up like the open 4, etc.
>
>
>
> > Is this a case of:
>
> > "Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's
> > gone" - Joni Mitchell, ca. 1972
>
> > or is it a case of:
>
> > "The older you get, the better you were" - Greg LeMond, ca. 1989
>
> bingo. except that you'd have to have some kind of mental blockage to
> be blind to, and never bother try, any of the modern alternatives. and
> keep bleating about their supposed mechanical properties in the face of
> contrary fact. somewhat bizarre.-

Also somewhat bizarre: people who have *never* built or ridden highly
dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels holding forth on spoke tension, the
need for tensiometers and the use of threadlock on spoke nipples.

Date: 27 May 2007 07:50:14
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 27, 3:32 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:
> On May 26, 10:35 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
> > gratuitously sculptured ugly shape.
>
> > Jobst Brandt

As I wrote in my original reference, the R390 is the one to look at,
not the "pro" version.

> You were looking at the R390 Pro, which has only eyelets. The R390,
> with eyelets and sockets, is on the next page.

Thanks Hank. Here it is:

http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?btn=1&cat=1&id=44

I replaced the AT400 (non Pro) OEM rear rim on my bike with the R390
and it's been good so far, easy to put the nipples in due to the
sockets.

One problem is that the brake surface is kinda low profile so the pads
that fit fully on my older AT400 rim with room to spare now have just
barely enough if I have the pads exactly right, and after some more
pad wear, they might overhang and need adjustment or replacement.

Date: 27 May 2007 07:35:30
From: Ozark Bicycle
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com > wrote:
> Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
> what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
>
> I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13 which
> is a 700c.
>
> To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty Python
> movies:
>
> "Run away! Run away!"
>
> Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike, you're
> buying potential problems with the hub.
>
> Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
> similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974. Even
> back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and we
> used to import French components.
>
> Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
> bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find cones
> that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so dirt
> could easily get into the bearings.
>
> MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
> sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy hubs
> and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
>

Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
also have.

When did MA-2s become great????

Is this a case of:

"Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's
gone" - Joni Mitchell, ca. 1972

or is it a case of:

"The older you get, the better you were" - Greg LeMond, ca. 1989

Date: 27 May 2007 22:20:26
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

In article
<1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com >
,
Ozark Bicycle
<bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote:

> When did MA-2s become great????

With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
unmachined sidewall rims.
It is a good design and should still be available.
Look at the vast selection of rims, but this design has vanished.

--
Michael Press

Date: 28 May 2007 09:06:57
From: Morten Reippuert Knudsen
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net > wrote:
> In article
> <1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:

> > When did MA-2s become great????

> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> unmachined sidewall rims.

I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:

<http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm >

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk >

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Date: 29 May 2007 21:35:17
From: Michael Press
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

In article <hlbqi4-0qa.ln1@wm.reippuert.dk >,
Morten Reippuert Knudsen<spam@reippuert.dk > wrote:

> Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> > ,
> > Ozark Bicycle
> > <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
> > > When did MA-2s become great????
>
> > With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> > box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> > unmachined sidewall rims.
>
> I belive that Ambrosio still has an item:
>
> <http://www.ambrosiospa.com/provajpg/pag110.htm>

Oho. Thanks.

--
Michael Press

Date: 27 May 2007 22:40:40
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>
> ,
> Ozark Bicycle
> <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> wrote:
>
>> When did MA-2s become great????
>
> With the MA-40, and simultaneous disappearance of all
> box-section, fully socketed, plugged seam, non-anodized,
> unmachined sidewall rims.
> It is a good design and should still be available.
> Look at the vast selection of rims, but this design has vanished.
>
with good reason:
- welded seams are superior,
- machined sidewalls are superior
- deeper sections are superior
- stainless sockets are superior
- anodized finishes are superior [and no mavic rim has been available
un-anodized since their red labels, and that was a /long/ time ago]

it's not "vanished", it's simply been superseded. like carburettors and
contact breaker ignition.

Date: 29 May 2007 20:57:04
From: Jasper Janssen
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:40:40 -0700, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net >
wrote:

>it's not "vanished", it's simply been superseded. like carburettors and
>contact breaker ignition.

And yet I can buy a brandnew Harley 1955 frame and flathead motor if I
want to, let alone carburettors for almost any engine ever made and -- if
you're a masochist -- points-based ignition for any car that came with it
stock, as well as modern replacements.

Jasper

Date: 29 May 2007 22:11:38
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Jasper Janssen wrote:
> On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:40:40 -0700, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net>
> wrote:
>
>> it's not "vanished", it's simply been superseded. like carburettors and
>> contact breaker ignition.
>
> And yet I can buy a brandnew Harley 1955 frame and flathead motor if I
> want to, let alone carburettors for almost any engine ever made and -- if
> you're a masochist -- points-based ignition for any car that came with it
> stock, as well as modern replacements.
>
> Jasper

because you can buy it, doesn't mean it's any good. microsoft and
budweiser spring to mind.

Date: 30 Jun 2007 17:43:41
From: Jasper Janssen
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

On Tue, 29 May 2007 22:11:38 -0700, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net >
wrote:
>Jasper Janssen wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 May 2007 22:40:40 -0700, jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> it's not "vanished", it's simply been superseded. like carburettors and
>>> contact breaker ignition.
>>
>> And yet I can buy a brandnew Harley 1955 frame and flathead motor if I
>> want to, let alone carburettors for almost any engine ever made and -- if
>> you're a masochist -- points-based ignition for any car that came with it
>> stock, as well as modern replacements.

>because you can buy it, doesn't mean it's any good. microsoft and
>budweiser spring to mind.

Yes, but my point was, "superseded" doesn't *have* to mean "no longer
available". If the old stuff was truly so horrible, how come it's not
being made at all? For restorations if nothing else?

Jasper

Date: 27 May 2007 09:28:38
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

"Ozark Bicycle" <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com > wrote in message
news:1180276530.812111.238140@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
> > Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
> > what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
> >
> > I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13
which
> > is a 700c.
> >
> > To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty
Python
> > movies:
> >
> > "Run away! Run away!"
> >
> > Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike,
you're
> > buying potential problems with the hub.
> >
> > Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
> > similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974.
Even
> > back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and
we
> > used to import French components.
> >
> > Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
> > bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find
cones
> > that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so
dirt
> > could easily get into the bearings.
> >
> > MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
> > sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy
hubs
> > and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
> >
>
> Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
> more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
> up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
> example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
> also have.
>
> When did MA-2s become great????
>
> Is this a case of:
>
> "Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's
> gone" - Joni Mitchell, ca. 1972
>
> or is it a case of:
>
> "The older you get, the better you were" - Greg LeMond, ca. 1989
>

"The Faster We Go, The Rounder We Get" - Grateful Dead, "Anthem of the
Sun" ca. 1968

Chas. - Wow! Far out man!

Date: 27 May 2007 08:03:25
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On May 27, 1:54 am, "* * Chas" <verktygj...@aol.spamski.com> wrote:
>> Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
>> what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?
>>
>> I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13 which
>> is a 700c.
>>
>> To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty Python
>> movies:
>>
>> "Run away! Run away!"
>>
>> Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike, you're
>> buying potential problems with the hub.
>>
>> Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
>> similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974. Even
>> back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and we
>> used to import French components.
>>
>> Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
>> bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find cones
>> that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so dirt
>> could easily get into the bearings.
>>
>> MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
>> sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy hubs
>> and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.
>>
>
> Geez, 'back in the day', MA-2s were regarded as "okay" rims, nothing
> more. Were we missing something? (I have my last pair of MA-2s built
> up on 36H Shimano HB-6207 (600) hubs. Nice, but no better than, for
> example, the Campy Lambda Strada rims on 36H Suntour Cyclone hubs I
> also have.
>
> When did MA-2s become great????

well, they were great in that they were just like the "module e", the
first worthwhile clincher rim that set the current market. but when the
ma2 was mainstream, as you say, there were a number of other better rims
on the market, including mavic's own successor line-up like the open 4, etc.

>
> Is this a case of:
>
> "Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got 'til it's
> gone" - Joni Mitchell, ca. 1972
>
> or is it a case of:
>
> "The older you get, the better you were" - Greg LeMond, ca. 1989

bingo. except that you'd have to have some kind of mental blockage to
be blind to, and never bother try, any of the modern alternatives. and
keep bleating about their supposed mechanical properties in the face of
contrary fact. somewhat bizarre.

Date: 27 May 2007 07:25:34
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

almost_fast@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim?

despite the hype, i wouldn't buy it just for the rim because:
1. it's heavy[er]. 460g, 32h.
2. its shallow profile makes it prone to flat spots.
3. it has plated steel sockets that rust.
4. it's unmachined so the brake pads need to wear to fit.

bottom line, most of the nostalgia for the ma2 is sadly misinformed.
the modern open pro is better in all respects.
1. it's lighter. 430g, 32h.
2. its deeper profile makes it less prone to flat spots. [makes it
stiffer too.]
3. it has stainless eyelets and sockets that don't rust.
4. it's machined so you can have 100% brake efficacy from day one.

unless you have an historical restoration where use of the ma2 is
somehow critical, there's simply no reason to buy one. certainly not a
used one which can be a pita to rebuild.

> Or since
> it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
> win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

Date: 27 May 2007 04:15:50
From: Tom Ace
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 27, 12:32 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net > wrote:

> You were looking at the R390 Pro, which has only eyelets. The R390,
> with eyelets and sockets, is on the next page.

Or directly accessible at
http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?btn=1&cat=1&id=44

But it's not an option if you want to use 36 spokes.

I didn't find any 700C rim on the Alex site that
has double eyelets and is available with 36 holes.

Tom Ace

Date: 27 May 2007 07:20:40
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Tom Ace wrote:
> On May 27, 12:32 am, Hank Wirtz <h...@wirtznet.net> wrote:
>
>> You were looking at the R390 Pro, which has only eyelets. The R390,
>> with eyelets and sockets, is on the next page.
>
> Or directly accessible at
> http://www.alexrims.com/product_detail.asp?btn=1&cat=1&id=44
>
> But it's not an option if you want to use 36 spokes.
>
> I didn't find any 700C rim on the Alex site that
> has double eyelets and is available with 36 holes.
>
> Tom Ace
>
if you have a deeper profile rim, you don't need 36 spokes - the rim is
stiffer.

Date: 27 May 2007 00:32:03
From: Hank Wirtz
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 10:35 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Dave Ornee writes:
> >>>> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?
> >> Or better said sockets ans eyelets similar to an MA-2 or many other
> >> rims that didn't crack when ridden.
> >>> Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the
> >>> "pro" version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.
> >>> I don't know about the Sun rims.
> >> I found no information on the web about these rims other than that
> >> they had no sockets. If such rims are available, I expect they
> >> would be listed somewhere. Can you furnish links to their cross
> >> sections and other specifications?
> >http://www.alexrims.com/
> > AT400 PRO Features
> > Double wall/ double eyelet design
> > Deep inner wall
> > Wear Line Indicator
> > Tech Spec
> > Welded joint, 28 or 32 holes, silver, black W/CSW, W/SDE
> > 700C-435g, ERD 600mm, ETRTO 622X14mm
>
> It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
> Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
> the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.
>
> > You will need to click on road rims and follow your nose as AlexRims
> > doesn't have sublinks to give.
> > I don't know about the R390 and I couldn't find it on the site.
> > While you are there you might also want to look at their
> > cross/trekking rims.
>
> The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
> gratuitously sculptured ugly shape.
>
> Jobst Brandt

You were looking at the R390 Pro, which has only eyelets. The R390,
with eyelets and sockets, is on the next page.

Date: 26 May 2007 23:54:20
From: * * Chas
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel - Am I missing something?

Am I missing something? No where in the eBay description does it state
what size wheel is for auction. Is it 27". 700c or what?

I take it back - one of the pictures shows that the rim is 622 x 13 which
is a 700c.

To quote the battle cry of the brave knights in one of the Monty Python
movies:

"Run away! Run away!"

Unless you're interested in a replacement wheel for a retro bike, you're
buying potential problems with the hub.

Normandy Luxe hubs were never more than a middle of the road products
similar to Campy Nuovo Tipo hubs. They were produced up until 1974. Even
back in the day finding replacement Luxe hub parts was difficult and we
used to import French components.

Normandy Luxe hubs were only used on a few mid range French and Brit
bikes. The cones were an odd ball size and if you were able to find cones
that fit the axle they didn't match up with the holes in the hubs so dirt
could easily get into the bearings.

MA2 rims come up for auction on eBay at least every other week and the
sell for ~$40-60 USD. You can also buy good front wheels with Campy hubs
and MA2 rims for under $60 USD on eBay.

Good luck,

Chas.

<almost_fast@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1180143030.626208.302060@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or since
> it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
> win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>

Date: 26 May 2007 19:48:17
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 9:26 pm, daveornee <daveornee.2r8...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com > wrote:

> I don't know about the R390 and I couldn't find it on the site.
> While you are there you might also want to look at thier cross/trekking
> rims.

It's under "Road" rims and looks to be socketed. 485g and $35 street.
I've not ridden that particular model, but I've built a couple using
some of their non-eyeletted rims, and have owned three bikes with
various rims from the "cross/trekking" category. All have stayed bang
on true after a proper meeting with a spoke wrench.

Date: 26 May 2007 17:13:34
From: Victor Kan
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 5:59 pm, "G.T." <getne...@dslextreme.com > wrote:
> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?

Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the "pro"
version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.

I don't know about the Sun rims.

Date: 27 May 2007 01:11:49
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Victor Kan writes:

>> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?

Or better said sockets ans eyelets similar to an MA-2 or many other
rims that didn't crack when ridden.

> Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the
> "pro" version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.

> I don't know about the Sun rims.

I found no information on the web about these rims other than that
they had no sockets. If such rims are available, I expect they would
be listed somewhere. Can you furnish links to their cross sections
and other specifications?

Jobst Brandt

Date: 27 May 2007 12:26:12
From: daveornee
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org Wrote:
> Victor Kan writes:
>
> >> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?
>
> Or better said sockets ans eyelets similar to an MA-2 or many other
> rims that didn't crack when ridden.
>
> > Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the
> > "pro" version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.
>
> > I don't know about the Sun rims.
>
> I found no information on the web about these rims other than that
> they had no sockets. If such rims are available, I expect they would
> be listed somewhere. Can you furnish links to their cross sections
> and other specifications?
>
> Jobst Brandt
http://www.alexrims.com/
AT400 PRO Features
Double wall/ double eyelet design
Deep inner wall
Wear Line Indicator
Tech Spec
Welded joint, 28 or 32 holes, silver, black W/CSW, W/SDE
700C-435g, ERD 600mm, ETRTO 622X14mm
You will need to click on road rims and follow your nose as AlexRim
doesn't have sublinks to give.
I don't know about the R390 and I couldn't find it on the site.
While you are there you might also want to look at thier cross/trekkin
rims.
David Ornee, Western Springs, I

--
daveornee

Date: 27 May 2007 05:35:38
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Dave Ornee writes:

>>>> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?

>> Or better said sockets ans eyelets similar to an MA-2 or many other
>> rims that didn't crack when ridden.

>>> Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the
>>> "pro" version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.

>>> I don't know about the Sun rims.

>> I found no information on the web about these rims other than that
>> they had no sockets. If such rims are available, I expect they
>> would be listed somewhere. Can you furnish links to their cross
>> sections and other specifications?

> http://www.alexrims.com/
> AT400 PRO Features
> Double wall/ double eyelet design
> Deep inner wall
> Wear Line Indicator
> Tech Spec
> Welded joint, 28 or 32 holes, silver, black W/CSW, W/SDE
> 700C-435g, ERD 600mm, ETRTO 622X14mm

It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.

> You will need to click on road rims and follow your nose as AlexRims
> doesn't have sublinks to give.

> I don't know about the R390 and I couldn't find it on the site.
> While you are there you might also want to look at their
> cross/trekking rims.

The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
gratuitously sculptured ugly shape.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 27 May 2007 07:34:52
From: jim beam
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> Dave Ornee writes:
>
>>>>> Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?
>
>>> Or better said sockets ans eyelets similar to an MA-2 or many other
>>> rims that didn't crack when ridden.
>
>>>> Among their road rims, the Alex AT400 Pro and the R390 (not the
>>>> "pro" version though). Alexrims.com has details on their stuff.
>
>>>> I don't know about the Sun rims.
>
>>> I found no information on the web about these rims other than that
>>> they had no sockets. If such rims are available, I expect they
>>> would be listed somewhere. Can you furnish links to their cross
>>> sections and other specifications?
>
>> http://www.alexrims.com/
>> AT400 PRO Features
>> Double wall/ double eyelet design
>> Deep inner wall
>> Wear Line Indicator
>> Tech Spec
>> Welded joint, 28 or 32 holes, silver, black W/CSW, W/SDE
>> 700C-435g, ERD 600mm, ETRTO 622X14mm
>
> It seems this is the only Alex rim that has sockets and eyelets.
> Their emphasis seems to be aero and light weight. 18mm is narrow and
> the walls, although having a wear indicator, are thin.
>
>> You will need to click on road rims and follow your nose as AlexRims
>> doesn't have sublinks to give.
>
>> I don't know about the R390 and I couldn't find it on the site.
>> While you are there you might also want to look at their
>> cross/trekking rims.
>
> The R390 showed up OK here and has only eyelets, besides having a
> gratuitously sculptured ugly shape.

"ugly"??? the curves are simply the concave versions of the convex
curves found on other rims. or can you now perform a technical analysis
that somehow supports your otherwise blind unthinking prejudice?

Date: 26 May 2007 14:43:19
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 11:08 am, "almost_f...@yahoo.com" <almost_f...@yahoo.com >
wrote:
> About the aluminum nipples and coast - I assume you mean because of
> corrosion? What would you recommend on the nipples if I were to
> rebuild (possibly even in a plain 3 cross pattern)?

Tef-gel on the threads, or use brass nipples (best long term
solution). I'd keep the pattern unless you don't like the way it
looks.

> Good point on the hub. What should I ask about? Bearings? Miles?

The condition of the races and cones... they will probably be
impossible to replace if they are in poor condition. Bearings would be
easily replaced.

Date: 26 May 2007 11:29:18
From: landotter
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 25, 8:30 pm, "almost_f...@yahoo.com" <almost_f...@yahoo.com >
wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim?

Nothing, unless you're a MA2 fanboy.

Thirty bucks gets you a brand new straight and strong rim from either
Alex or Sun. If you want a retro look, build up a polish silver CR18,
if you want strength on the cheap, Alex can't be beat.

Date: 26 May 2007 14:59:11
From: G.T.
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

landotter wrote:
> On May 25, 8:30 pm, "almost_f...@yahoo.com" <almost_f...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>>
>> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
>> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim?
>
> Nothing, unless you're a MA2 fanboy.
>
> Thirty bucks gets you a brand new straight and strong rim from either
> Alex or Sun. If you want a retro look, build up a polish silver CR18,
> if you want strength on the cheap, Alex can't be beat.
>

Which Alex or Sun have double-eyelets?

Greg
--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

Date: 26 May 2007 10:08:10
From: almost_fast@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 10:53 am, Ron Ruff <rruffrr...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> On May 25, 7:30 pm, "almost_f...@yahoo.com" <almost_f...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> The lacing pattern should be fine for a front wheel. For a rear I
> don't like the idea of having so many pulling or pushing spokes in one
> spot, but there isn't significant torque on the front. Aluminum
> nipples with only oil could be a problem if you live in a coastal area
> or ride on salted roads. The hubs is ~40 years old, so I would ask
> specifically about its condition.

Thanks for your repy. I thought the same thing about a front wheel
maybe being okay with that spoke pattern. After all, I've rarely
experienced many problems with front wheels anyway.

About the aluminum nipples and coast - I assume you mean because of
corrosion? What would you recommend on the nipples if I were to
rebuild (possibly even in a plain 3 cross pattern)?

Good point on the hub. What should I ask about? Bearings? Miles?
Thanks in advance!

Date: 26 May 2007 10:05:42
From: almost_fast@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 11:30 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> someone writes:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> > Weird spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be
> > a good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or
> > since it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I
> > bid and win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> 1. You probably won't "bid and win", MA-2 rims going for big money.
>
> 2. Unspoke the rim and build up a good wheel on a good hub.
>
> The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
> cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a wheel.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what you mean by "large incident
angle". I understand that despite the strage spoke pattern this wheel
has the same spoke incident angle as a normal 3 cross wheel, so it
shouldn't be excessive, or do you mean *any* 3x high flange hub makes
a large incident angle? Back in the day high flange hubs were often
laced even 4 cross, and I suppose that may have been excessive. Would
you recommend 2 cross? Thanks in advance.

Date: 26 May 2007 19:40:55
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

someone writes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805

>>> Weird spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to
>>> be a good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim?
>>> Or since it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming
>>> I bid and win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?

>> 1. You probably won't "bid and win", MA-2 rims going for big money.

>> 2. Unspoke the rim and build up a good wheel on a good hub.

>> The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
>> cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a
>> wheel.

> Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what you mean by "large incident
> angle". I understand that despite the strange spoke pattern this
> wheel has the same spoke incident angle as a normal 3 cross wheel,
> so it shouldn't be excessive, or do you mean *any* 3x high flange
> hub makes a large incident angle? Back in the day high flange hubs
> were often laced even 4 cross, and I suppose that may have been
> excessive. Would you recommend 2 cross? Thanks in advance.

You are right about that. Looking at the picture it struck me that
the spokes came into spoke nipples with, what appears to be a bend,
that could cause failure. I believe large flange hubs came along for
track bicycles to enable replacing spokes without pulling off the
sprocket on rear wheels. I have seen no other reason. As I recall,
originally there were practically no large flange Campagnolo road
hubs, the only ones generally used at that time.

My first experience with large flange hubs exposed me to many spoke
failures that led to stress relieving and improving the spoke line.
That was with the Stella stainless spokes of the day. They failed at
the slightest excuse.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 26 May 2007 10:04:06
From: Tom Ace
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 26, 9:30 am, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

> The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
> cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a wheel.

The spoke angles and lengths in this pattern are
the same as in a conventional 36 spoke 3x wheel.
Are you suggesting using 2x instead?

I've been using a front wheel in this pattern
(with a large flange hub and an MA-2 rim) for
the past ten years (I don't have a mile count)
and it's held up fine.

Conventional 3x is of course more stable and durable,
I use this pattern just for the fun of it.

Tom Ace

Date: 26 May 2007 19:31:09
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

Tom Ace writes:

>> The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
>> cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a
>> wheel.

> The spoke angles and lengths in this pattern are the same as in a
> conventional 36 spoke 3x wheel. Are you suggesting using 2x
> instead?

It's the spoke pattern and a large flange that give the angle. I
don't believe the wheel was built while improving the spoke line,
which is useful even with small flange hubs.

> I've been using a front wheel in this pattern (with a large flange
> hub and an MA-2 rim) for the past ten years (I don't have a mile
> count) and it's held up fine.

That can occur, but there is a greater load on the flanges from the
grouping and one-sided spoke exit among the groups.

> Conventional 3x is of course more stable and durable, I use this
> pattern just for the fun of it.

I see no benefit in artsy spoke patterns. This one puts more stress
on the flanges as they emerge, one sided in groups of three. It seems
these are 2.0-1.8 swaged spoke that seem to fir the hub holes closely.
In that way it probably isn't the worst combination, but knowing how
flange failures occur and how badly a wheel warps, I prefer to use
conventional crossed spoking on small flange hubs.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 27 May 2007 17:16:19
From: A Muzi
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

??
>>> The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
>>> cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a
>>> wheel.

> Tom Ace writes:
>> The spoke angles and lengths in this pattern are the same as in a
>> conventional 36 spoke 3x wheel. Are you suggesting using 2x
>> instead?

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> It's the spoke pattern and a large flange that give the angle. I
> don't believe the wheel was built while improving the spoke line,
> which is useful even with small flange hubs.

> Tom Ace writes:
>> I've been using a front wheel in this pattern (with a large flange
>> hub and an MA-2 rim) for the past ten years (I don't have a mile
>> count) and it's held up fine.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> That can occur, but there is a greater load on the flanges from the
> grouping and one-sided spoke exit among the groups.

> Tom Ace writes:
>> Conventional 3x is of course more stable and durable, I use this
>> pattern just for the fun of it.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> I see no benefit in artsy spoke patterns. This one puts more stress
> on the flanges as they emerge, one sided in groups of three. It seems
> these are 2.0-1.8 swaged spoke that seem to fir the hub holes closely.
> In that way it probably isn't the worst combination, but knowing how
> flange failures occur and how badly a wheel warps, I prefer to use
> conventional crossed spoking on small flange hubs.

Yes, but we see these 'showoff' attempts at Byrd Brothers spoking on
fronts from time to time and they almost never present a problem, just
dorky.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Date: 26 May 2007 16:30:24
From:
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

someone writes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805

> Weird spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be
> a good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or
> since it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I
> bid and win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?

1. You probably won't "bid and win", MA-2 rims going for big money.

2. Unspoke the rim and build up a good wheel on a good hub.

The large spoke incident angles at some of the spoke nipples often
cause failures. Consider this auction as a rim rather than a wheel.

Jobst Brandt

Date: 26 May 2007 08:53:43
From: Ron Ruff
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 25, 7:30 pm, "almost_f...@yahoo.com" <almost_f...@yahoo.com >
wrote:
> What might go wrong? How long would it take?

The lacing pattern should be fine for a front wheel. For a rear I
don't like the idea of having so many pulling or pushing spokes in one
spot, but there isn't significant torque on the front. Aluminum
nipples with only oil could be a problem if you live in a coastal area
or ride on salted roads. The hubs is ~40 years old, so I would ask
specifically about its condition.

Date: 26 May 2007 04:38:27
From: almost_fast@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

On May 25, 10:17 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net > wrote:
> almost_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> > Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
> > good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or since
> > it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
> > win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> > Thanks in advance.
>
> Run away save your money!!

Two exclamation points!! Why run away? The rim? The spoking? Something
else? Thanks.

Date: 26 May 2007 14:39:05
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

almost_fast@yahoo.com wrote:
> On May 25, 10:17 pm, wizardB <wiza...@gmx.net> wrote:
>> almost_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>>> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
>>> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or since
>>> it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
>>> win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>>> Thanks in advance.
>> Run away save your money!!
>
> Two exclamation points!! Why run away? The rim? The spoking? Something
> else? Thanks.
>
The spoke count the build the hub used buy a new openpro rim and build
and a used modern hub if you want a good wheel,old wheels like old
spaghetti are limp and loose:)

Date: 26 May 2007 03:17:43
From: wizardB
Subject: Re: MAVIC "MA2" wheel w/ "three leading, three trailing"

almost_fast@yahoo.com wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110129476805
>
> Wierd spoking pattern, but is this the MA2 rim that's supposed to be a
> good rim? How much is it worth to buy it for just the rim? Or since
> it's already built, should I just ride it as-is (assuming I bid and
> win)? What might go wrong? How long would it take?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
Run away save your money!!